Logs on 2020-09-16 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 15:39:04 | <sm[m]> | Nice reference article about helping on irc, from #python: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24467731 |
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| 15:43:36 | <ezzieyguywuf> | sm[m]: nice article. what's wrong with python pickles though? |
| 15:43:54 | <ezzieyguywuf> | in fact, a lot of the things mentioned in the article are things I've found generally helpful in the professional workplace as well |
| 15:44:08 | <sm[m]> | they're fragile, I expect ? |
| 15:44:40 | <ezzieyguywuf> | shrug |
| 15:45:11 | <sshine> | like PatternSynonyms, is there a way to get value constructor synonyms? |
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| 15:46:45 | <sshine> | ah, PatternSynonyms does give me that. I just didn't import the right module. d'oh. :) |
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| 15:49:01 | <ezzieyguywuf> | does hledger handle securities as well as (or better?!) than beancount? |
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| 15:50:55 | <tomsmeding> | Cale: http://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/browse/haskell |
| 15:51:20 | <tomsmeding> | haven't imported old stuff yet, but apparently ircbrowse has built-in support for reading znc logs, and I happen to know how znc works :) |
| 15:51:25 | <sm[m]> | ezzieyguywuf: I believe beancount has a few more advanced features eg for automatically reporting gains but I'm not quite sure of the actual features and their usability |
| 15:51:31 | <tomsmeding> | the bot is ircbrowse_tom |
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| 15:53:28 | hackage | ghc-lib-parser 8.10.2.20200916 - The GHC API, decoupled from GHC versions https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-lib-parser-8.10.2.20200916 (shayne_fletcher) |
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| 15:54:28 | hackage | ghc-lib 8.10.2.20200916 - The GHC API, decoupled from GHC versions https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-lib-8.10.2.20200916 (shayne_fletcher) |
| 15:55:20 | <sm[m]> | ezzieyguywuf: I have some newer tips than what's on the website, if needed |
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| 15:56:20 | <ezzieyguywuf> | sm[m]: which website?! lol |
| 15:56:50 | <Cale> | tomsmeding: nice! There also used to be fun stats pages as I recall, but I forget how to get to them. |
| 15:56:57 | <tomsmeding> | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
| 15:57:00 | <sm[m]> | sorry, speaking about hledger now |
| 15:57:02 | <tomsmeding> | I just cloned it from the github page |
| 15:57:12 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps there was development locally? |
| 15:57:52 | <Cale> | Ah, clicking on a nick takes you to a route for that nick |
| 15:57:56 | <ezzieyguywuf> | sm[m]: ah, ok. yea I haven't actually started converting my journal to hledger or anything, just an idle thought |
| 15:58:04 | <Cale> | but it seems to redirect back to the top level list for some reason |
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| 15:59:49 | <ezzieyguywuf> | 😍 I'm watching this video, I think I miht switch to xmonad from i3 https://youtu.be/3noK4GTmyMw |
| 16:00:20 | <tomsmeding> | Cale: perhaps there is some reliance left on being on the old ircbrowse.net domain, I'll see if I can find anything |
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| 16:06:57 | hackage | ghc-lib-parser 8.10.1.20200916 - The GHC API, decoupled from GHC versions https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-lib-parser-8.10.1.20200916 (shayne_fletcher) |
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| 16:07:57 | hackage | ghc-lib 8.10.1.20200916 - The GHC API, decoupled from GHC versions https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-lib-8.10.1.20200916 (shayne_fletcher) |
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| 16:12:12 | <tomsmeding> | Cale: clicking on a nick now takes you somewhere |
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| 16:12:20 | <tomsmeding> | not sure how to update that data though |
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| 16:37:30 | <Guest_88> | Hello? |
| 16:38:00 | <geekosaur> | hello |
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| 16:38:24 | <Guest_88> | is there anyone who could help me with ghc installation on macos? |
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| 16:41:15 | <sm[m]> | sure Guest_88, what problem are you having |
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| 16:59:31 | <maerwald> | well, the tension is unbearable now |
| 17:04:48 | <Guest_88> | sm[m] I'm trying to install ghc8.8 on my system using brew, but for some reason i cant seem to be able to link it so i can use it in shell. ghc 8.10 is already present on the system and im currently using it |
| 17:05:21 | <sm[m]> | what reason does brew give ? |
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| 17:06:22 | <Guest_88> | that 8.8 is keg only and i need to link it using --force |
| 17:07:16 | <sm[m]> | I see.. not that you already have some files in the way ? |
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| 17:08:55 | <Guest_88> | Warning: ghc@8.8 is keg-only and must be linked with --forceIf you need to have this software first in your PATH instead consider running: |
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| 17:09:08 | <Guest_88> | and there is a command for PATH then |
| 17:09:22 | <Guest_88> | but i tried running it, nothing happens |
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| 17:10:00 | <sm[m]> | are you doing brew install ghc@8.8 ? And you also have done brew install ghc to get 8.10 ? |
| 17:10:27 | <Guest_88> | yes |
| 17:10:30 | <Guest_88> | to both questions |
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| 17:11:32 | <sm[m]> | I think that's going to be inconvenient, brew assumes only one ghc in PATH at a time. You'd have to rename one or something. Have you considered installing versioned ghcs with stack or ghcup ? |
| 17:11:54 | <sm[m]> | it's just an idea, not necessarily advice |
| 17:12:31 | <Guest_88> | tried ghcup |
| 17:13:45 | <Guest_88> | but it didnt install correctly for some reason |
| 17:14:03 | <maerwald> | Guest_88: in what sense |
| 17:14:08 | <sm[m]> | let me introduce you to my colleague maerwald :) |
| 17:14:25 | <Guest_88> | when tried to check ghc --version or ghci, it said that some directories are not present |
| 17:14:45 | <maerwald> | Guest_88: did you add ~/.ghcup/bin to your PATH? |
| 17:15:07 | <maerwald> | you seem to have various ghcs floating around |
| 17:15:16 | <maerwald> | so it's not clear which you ran |
| 17:15:24 | <Guest_88> | yes, exactly |
| 17:15:48 | <Guest_88> | and when i installed with brew and linked it, everything went into places, but now im stuck with 8.10 |
| 17:15:58 | <maerwald> | ~/.ghcup/bin/ghci should work |
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| 17:16:47 | <sm[m]> | and remove or unlink all the brew ghcs ? |
| 17:17:05 | <Guest_88> | to the question earlier, did i add path - yes, i think so, when ghcup installation prompted me to add it, i answered Yes |
| 17:17:14 | <maerwald> | that doesn't mean it worked |
| 17:17:26 | <Guest_88> | oh wow |
| 17:17:31 | <Guest_88> | that command worked |
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| 17:17:40 | <Guest_88> | im using 8.8 |
| 17:18:00 | <Guest_88> | but now how do i set it as default or something |
| 17:18:09 | <maerwald> | Guest_88: what worked? |
| 17:18:22 | <Guest_88> | ~/.ghcup/bin/ghci |
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| 17:18:29 | <maerwald> | what shell are you running? |
| 17:19:12 | <Guest_88> | bash? is that what you are asking |
| 17:19:23 | <yushyin> | echo $SHELL |
| 17:19:41 | <maerwald> | add "[[ -f ~/.bashrc ]] && source ~/.bashrc" to ~/.bash_profile and "source ~/.ghcup/env" to ~/.bashrc |
| 17:19:52 | <maerwald> | then open a new shell |
| 17:20:49 | <Guest_88> | am i doing something wrong, or add isnt a command? |
| 17:21:10 | <maerwald> | add is english language here |
| 17:21:11 | <geekosaur> | add is an instruction to you,, not a shell command |
| 17:21:20 | <Guest_88> | :DD |
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| 17:27:50 | <monochrom> | Wait, when did https://discourse.haskell.org/ happen?! |
| 17:27:51 | <Guest_88> | nevermind, managed to link it with brew properly |
| 17:27:55 | <Guest_88> | thank you guys |
| 17:28:24 | <geekosaur> | there was a discussion about it maybe a half a year back on -cafe, iirc |
| 17:29:06 | <geekosaur> | or a year back maybe |
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| 17:30:52 | <sm[m]> | Guest_88: np |
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| 18:20:27 | hackage | autoexporter 1.1.19 - Automatically re-export modules. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/autoexporter-1.1.19 (fozworth) |
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| 18:31:02 | <tomsmeding> | merijn: sm[m]: http://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/browse/haskell works? kind of? |
| 18:31:27 | <tomsmeding> | the codebase had some weirdness in that certain things were disabled or didn't really work; I guess the previous hoster had some uncommitted changes |
| 18:31:42 | <tomsmeding> | I'm currently auto-updating the info every hour |
| 18:32:21 | <tomsmeding> | if there's anything that you expect to work from past experience but that does not work now, please tell |
| 18:33:53 | <sm[m]> | it lives again! great work tomsmeding |
| 18:34:26 | <sm[m]> | maybe update the source link |
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| 18:45:21 | <tomsmeding> | working on the footer :) |
| 18:45:35 | <tomsmeding> | also there were lots of header tabs that were commented out, having a look at those |
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| 18:47:24 | <tomsmeding> | footer has been fixed, and the header links seem to work sm[m] |
| 18:47:44 | tomsmeding | wonders why that stuff was commented out? was it disabled explicitly at some point? |
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| 18:51:29 | <sm[m]> | tomsmeding++ |
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| 18:52:35 | <sm[m]> | woohoo, now a chance to fix some things that always bugged me, like the page size selector :) |
| 18:53:00 | <tomsmeding> | lol |
| 18:53:07 | <tomsmeding> | there's literally a list of page sizes |
| 18:53:14 | <tomsmeding> | so changing that is trivial |
| 18:54:33 | sm[m] | tries to decipher the timestamps |
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| 18:57:59 | <sm[m]> | I think the timezone is 2 or 3 hours off |
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| 18:59:46 | <sm[m]> | I think it used to update quite often, which could be handy when you got disconnected or didn't trust your chat client |
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| 19:05:50 | <tomsmeding> | ah right server is in UTC but receives stuff from the irc server in GMT+2 which is the timezone where the server is located |
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| 19:06:50 | <tomsmeding> | interesting that it does show shifted-correct timestamps for you, who are nowhere near europe in terms of timezones |
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| 19:07:13 | <tomsmeding> | does ircbrowse actively adjust timestamps according to the timezone of the client browser? |
| 19:09:00 | <tomsmeding> | oh right I didn't realise it's lazy and just writes +0000 |
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| 19:10:14 | <geekosaur> | fwiw I show 2 hours forward from my current timezone (UTC-4) which suggests UTC-2 |
| 19:10:30 | <geekosaur> | that is, something timestamped 14:57 locally is 16:57 in ircbrowse |
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| 19:14:10 | <sm[m]> | does anyone know a way to copy the current file path and/or line number in vs code ? |
| 19:15:03 | <sm[m]> | tomsmeding: I'm looking at upstream/snap-app/src/Snap/App/Controller.hs:91 and wondering if that's where the default page size of 35 comes from |
| 19:15:53 | <sm[m]> | and what happens if the page sizes at Controllers.hs:147 don't include that number |
| 19:16:08 | <sm[m]> | I'd test, but the build plan looks too hairy right now |
| 19:16:13 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur: my brain is operating at reduced capacity; for me ircbrowse reports everything in UTC, but two hours earlier than the event actually happened; is that consistent with what you see? |
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| 19:16:26 | <tomsmeding> | building is actually no harder than 'stack build' |
| 19:16:37 | <tomsmeding> | well, and waiting |
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| 19:16:54 | <sm[m]> | that's hard when it's lts-3 and you have a mac with no spare disk space :) |
| 19:16:57 | <geekosaur> | it claims +0000 but 2 hours ahead of me or 2 hours behind UTC |
| 19:17:43 | <geekosaur> | >> that is, something timestamped 14:57 locally is 16:57 in ircbrowse |
| 19:18:10 | <geekosaur> | 14:57 being UTC-4, EDT |
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| 19:42:02 | Server | sets mode +CLnt |
| 19:42:13 | <rustisafungus> | so what is a type, and is there any practical phenomenon which creates a reasonable upper bound on the number of distinct types, or which limits the "growth" of types? |
| 19:43:58 | <tomsmeding> | sm[m]: geekosaur: I believe the timezone setting of ircbrowse is correct now |
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| 19:45:12 | <geekosaur> | looks right to me, yes |
| 19:45:12 | <Cale> | rustisafungus: One way to think about them is that types are properties of programs for which the program itself can be interpreted as a proof. |
| 19:45:53 | <Cale> | rustisafungus: (and checked by a machine) |
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| 19:47:14 | <rustisafungus> | this question will make you laugh, but is there any way to think about the question of "how many types are there?" |
| 19:47:28 | hackage | lti13 0.1.2.0 - Core functionality for LTI 1.3. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lti13-0.1.2.0 (jade) |
| 19:47:40 | <dolio> | Infinitely many. |
| 19:47:40 | <Cale> | I mean, unless the answer is 1, usually it's infinitely many. |
| 19:47:54 | <sm[m]> | tomsmeding: what would you think about hiding all the connect/disconnects |
| 19:47:59 | <Cale> | It obviously depends on which type system we're talking about |
| 19:48:05 | <tomsmeding> | sm[m]: yes |
| 19:48:22 | <tomsmeding> | will require some finicking with the pagination though |
| 19:48:26 | <Cale> | It's like asking how many mathematical statements there are |
| 19:48:26 | <rustisafungus> | right but that's a boring answer. for example we could say that there are infinitely many physical units, when in fact there are just a few fundamental physical units from which all physical units are derived using simple operations |
| 19:48:27 | <monochrom> | "what is" questions are usually not worth answering. |
| 19:48:28 | hackage | yesod-auth-lti13 0.1.2.0 - A yesod-auth plugin for LTI 1.3 https://hackage.haskell.org/package/yesod-auth-lti13-0.1.2.0 (jade) |
| 19:49:06 | <monochrom> | "how many types" is also a useless question in the first place. |
| 19:49:33 | <rustisafungus> | i don't agree, because Cale's answer says that if your program has more types, then it has more proven constraints imposed/checked by the compiler |
| 19:49:42 | <monochrom> | "what are the rules of making type expressions" is a much more useful question. Now it reveals structure. |
| 19:49:48 | <Cale> | If the answer were not infinity and were instead 100 billion, what would you do with that information? |
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| 19:51:06 | <geekosaur> | rustisafungus, you can meaningfully ask how many types a given program makes use of, but less so how many types there are globally |
| 19:51:15 | <monochrom> | Likewise, "how many binary trees?" "infinitely many" is useless. "how to define/generate binary trees by structural induction" is the useful one. |
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| 19:52:16 | <monochrom> | We can also set up pathological type systems in which infinitely many types express no invariant at all so the counterpoint is moot. |
| 19:52:22 | <rustisafungus> | so is there a small collection of laws for defining "all possible" types? |
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| 19:52:45 | <Cale> | In essentially any practical type system, yeah |
| 19:53:15 | <rustisafungus> | right but i am thinking in the sense of the fact that there was a one page probabilistic proof of fermat's last theorem while the mathematicians took forever to produce a lengthy and incomprehensible proof,... that is to say i am fine with heuristic/empirical/semi-empirical arguments |
| 19:53:28 | <rustisafungus> | Cale: so where do i find those laws? |
| 19:53:38 | <Cale> | For which type theory? |
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| 19:53:53 | <rustisafungus> | i don't know,... i don't even know what a type theory is or what distinguishes one from another |
| 19:54:39 | <geekosaur> | maybe that's the wrong angle. start with standard Haskell ADTs |
| 19:55:03 | <Cale> | Yeah, I guess I should make sure you're not just asking about Haskell |
| 19:55:23 | <rustisafungus> | no i am asking more broadly |
| 19:55:25 | <geekosaur> | where your type theory is the one chosen by the language designer, since most users won't be that interested in that particular level of detail |
| 19:55:35 | <dolio> | Algebraic types are already a schema for infinitely many acceptable definitions, though. |
| 19:55:41 | <monochrom> | I'll now refer you to two big volumes, "types and programming languages" and "practical foundations for programming languages". Pick one of them and study. I won't answer further questions until you have finished at least one. Your current questions and I bet the next 70 ones are all answered there. |
| 19:55:41 | <Cale> | But a good book recommendation might be "Types and Programming Languages" by Benjamin Pierce |
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| 19:58:50 | <Cale> | https://github.com/MPRI/M2-4-2/blob/master/Types%20and%20Programming%20Languages.pdf -- apparently it's just on github now |
| 19:59:01 | <rustisafungus> | yeah i was trying to find it :-P thanks |
| 19:59:05 | <Cale> | (this is probably not official) |
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| 20:01:52 | <monochrom> | Now I'm at a moral crossroad of "should I keep a copy?" |
| 20:02:38 | <Cale> | rustisafungus: There are programming languages like Coq and Agda whose types can encode all the statements of mathematics, and whose programs can literally be regarded as proofs of those statements, and where the fundamental building blocks of expressions correspond directly with logical rules. |
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| 20:04:28 | <Cale> | I own a paper copy, but it's nice to have the PDF :P |
| 20:04:37 | <monochrom> | Yeah that's fair. |
| 20:05:34 | <Cale> | Apparently it's just been sitting there for 5 years as well, and that repo is linked with Xavier Leroy's course... so maybe nobody has any issue with it |
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| 20:07:28 | hackage | lti13 0.1.2.1 - Core functionality for LTI 1.3. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lti13-0.1.2.1 (jade) |
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| 20:08:28 | hackage | yesod-auth-lti13 0.1.2.1 - A yesod-auth plugin for LTI 1.3 https://hackage.haskell.org/package/yesod-auth-lti13-0.1.2.1 (jade) |
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| 20:10:42 | <lc_> | bro |
| 20:10:46 | <lc_> | type classes are just interfaces |
| 20:11:10 | <lc_> | what's with the fancy name |
| 20:11:18 | <Graypup_> | i mean kinda but you can't get `this` in them afaik |
| 20:11:36 | <monochrom> | I agree. We don't need the fancy name "interface". |
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| 20:12:15 | <Graypup_> | trying to get my hackage docs to build on their antique ghc863 |
| 20:12:19 | <monochrom> | "interfaces" are just type classes. |
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| 20:13:22 | <lc_> | I can't believe I didnt realize this before |
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| 20:14:09 | <sm[m]> | aren't they also what some languages call "traits" |
| 20:14:13 | <Graypup_> | ........ where's ghc883 and other versions with working `text` package? https://i.imgur.com/Iz58tKy.png |
| 20:14:17 | <Graypup_> | the heck hackage |
| 20:14:46 | <Graypup_> | sm[m], a trait, at least in rust, is quite different from an interface because you can implement it on someone else's type |
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| 20:15:30 | <Graypup_> | so you can put extensions on standard library types, containers, etc by making a trait and impl'ing it for them |
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| 20:15:59 | <rustisafungus> | so i read the first chapter of pierce and barely glanced at the second and third |
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| 20:16:20 | <dolio> | That doesn't seem like the agreement. |
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| 20:16:58 | <rustisafungus> | do i understand correctly that he is saying that a type system is essentially a usable *but inferior* way of proving properties of a program? |
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| 20:18:16 | <hyperisco> | lc_, good troll |
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| 20:19:02 | <lc_> | literally not trolling |
| 20:19:07 | <lc_> | they're literally just interfaces |
| 20:19:19 | <Graypup_> | ..... what the heck hackage https://hackage.haskell.org/upload the script here doesn't find the docs for the /other/ package it *just* built |
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| 20:20:16 | <sm[m]> | Graypup_: isn't that something we can also do with haskell typeclasses |
| 20:20:27 | <hyperisco> | rustisafungus, don't know where you've got on this, but there are as many types as there are naturals, usually |
| 20:20:39 | <Graypup_> | sm[m], yes, but not with interfaces |
| 20:21:07 | <Graypup_> | also there's some higher kinded types stuff that traits in rust don't do |
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| 20:21:24 | <Graypup_> | you couldn't have a trait Monad I don't think but I don't know why |
| 20:21:28 | <hyperisco> | rustisafungus, which is why in some type theory papers the discussion just orients around Nat |
| 20:22:04 | <tomsmeding> | lc_: in Haskell, as a user of a library that defines a particular type T, you can define new class C and make T and instance of that class C |
| 20:22:09 | sm[m] | persists in the belief that typeclass/interface/trait are more or less synonyms, then |
| 20:22:25 | <rustisafungus> | hyperisco: sounds nice at some fundamental level, but if i ingest code from github and apply some kind of rule which can identify "identical types" and then another rule which can identify "simple rearrangements/compositions/etc of previously encountered types" then i might see a slowing or tapering off of encountering of new types as i ingest more kilobytes of say, haskell |
| 20:22:31 | <sm[m]> | uh, except interface doesn't have implementation, my bad |
| 20:22:41 | <tomsmeding> | how would you do that in, e.g., Java/C++ or Go, which I think is the class of languages where "interface" means something |
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| 20:22:55 | <hyperisco> | rustisafungus, at what level are you looking for an answer? |
| 20:23:17 | <Graypup_> | interface /can/ have implementation as of java 8 iirc |
| 20:23:25 | <Graypup_> | (default implementation) |
| 20:23:32 | <rustisafungus> | something a mortal amateur like me can understand |
| 20:23:37 | <Graypup_> | which allows for a gross misuse of them to produce multiple inheritance lololol |
| 20:23:38 | <lc_> | You define an interface with a certain set of internal methods. Then other library users define their own implemmentations of that interface by filling in the method descriptions |
| 20:23:43 | <dolio> | 'As many types as there are naturals' is kind of a dubious answer. |
| 20:23:54 | <lc_> | You dont need multiple inheritance or anything. Go has this. Every language has this |
| 20:24:01 | <hyperisco> | lc_, I can't count how many times this discussion has occurred on this channel. They're significantly not the same, assuming we're saying "interface" as in Java or something |
| 20:24:23 | <Graypup_> | interface is a distinctly OO thing for sure |
| 20:24:49 | <lc_> | https://golang.org/pkg/io/#Reader |
| 20:24:57 | <lc_> | ^ example of type class |
| 20:25:10 | <hyperisco> | there are few languages that have type classes |
| 20:25:23 | <hyperisco> | in fact I know of only 2, but there are likely more, and those would be Haskell and PureScript |
| 20:25:43 | <tomsmeding> | lc_: I'm not _terribly_ familiar with Go; suppose I define a new Go interface, say CoolReader, that requires a method CoolRead() |
| 20:25:55 | <tomsmeding> | and I want to implement that for some standard library type, say Stdin |
| 20:25:58 | <tomsmeding> | can I do that? |
| 20:26:05 | <lc_> | yes |
| 20:27:15 | <tomsmeding> | so to be clear, Go's interfaces are _not_ the same thing as C++/Java interfaces |
| 20:27:17 | <hyperisco> | or are you using my favourite approach where you just say something to provoke responses :P |
| 20:27:43 | <lc_> | All an interface is is a description of methods an object must support to be called "interface_name". So any struct you make which has those methods w/ those types, you can use and call "interface_name", and pass it into e.g. other outside libraries, etc. |
| 20:27:45 | <ski> | hyperisco : Clean,Mercury |
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| 20:28:24 | <hyperisco> | well now I know of 4 |
| 20:28:38 | <tomsmeding> | lc_: a difference between Go interfaces and Haskell type classes is that in Go, a type automatically satisfies an interface if it has the required methods, whereas in Haskell you need to explicitly make the type a member |
| 20:28:39 | <Graypup_> | go interfaces are kinda like c++ concepts sorta: you don't have to say your type implements them, you implement them and then you have functions that can take things with that interface |
| 20:28:47 | <Graypup_> | lol we both said the same thing |
| 20:28:50 | <tomsmeding> | Graypup_: yup |
| 20:29:03 | <hyperisco> | this is like saying oh, parametric polymorphism is just templates |
| 20:29:33 | <tomsmeding> | well, c++ templates with c++20 concepts get somewhere in the right direction |
| 20:29:51 | <tomsmeding> | though it's a more bloated and idiosyncratic version :) |
| 20:29:55 | <lc_> | Hyperisco if you know something interfaces cant do that typeclasses can, tell me then |
| 20:29:56 | <ski> | lc_ : the "object" part in your description isn't there, for type classes |
| 20:29:57 | <hyperisco> | minus the whole "parametric" part |
| 20:30:16 | <hyperisco> | lc_, an interface is a type, a type class is not a type, for one |
| 20:30:52 | <Graypup_> | a type class can be used as a constraint but it is not a type |
| 20:31:22 | <tomsmeding> | hyperisco: a Go interface is not a type |
| 20:31:43 | <tomsmeding> | at least |
| 20:31:46 | <hyperisco> | okay, I was referring to Java-like interfaces, and I don't know Go, but we can go on to other differences as soon as I know what a Go interface is |
| 20:31:59 | <tomsmeding> | lc_: can you write a method that takes a particular type T that must be both Read and Write? |
| 20:32:17 | <tomsmeding> | hyperisco: a Go interface is approximately a C++ concept :) |
| 20:32:21 | <Graypup_> | a go interface (as a non go programmer so boulder of salt etc) is a set of methods that you are saying a type has, and you accept things that have it |
| 20:32:28 | <Graypup_> | which is, yeah, ≈ a C++ concept |
| 20:32:53 | <lc_> | You can make that interface. But that reminds me of a constraint for interfaces, where you can't really "combine them", e.g. you cant say input to function f must satisfy x y and z interfaces |
| 20:33:01 | <tomsmeding> | ah |
| 20:33:08 | <hyperisco> | last I grazed C++, concepts were just a figment of C++14's imagination |
| 20:33:16 | <lc_> | So that's a genuine constraint, and people make specialty interfaces to get around that. But they're kinda similar |
| 20:33:17 | <Graypup_> | they exist as of C++20 |
| 20:33:19 | <tomsmeding> | whereas in haskell, I can write a function: foo :: (Read a, Write a) => a -> Something |
| 20:33:24 | <lc_> | Exactly |
| 20:33:30 | <lc_> | We have to have a ReadWriter for that |
| 20:33:34 | <hyperisco> | well congratulations to them |
| 20:33:48 | <hyperisco> | the end of error novels? |
| 20:33:59 | <tomsmeding> | hyperisco: it's c++ |
| 20:34:03 | <Graypup_> | lmao |
| 20:34:12 | <Graypup_> | haskell also has error novels |
| 20:34:14 | <hyperisco> | alright so that hype was overhype |
| 20:34:15 | <Graypup_> | IME |
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| 20:34:25 | <tomsmeding> | though I've had haskell errors that don't fit on a screen too |
| 20:34:28 | <ski> | tomsmeding : or `read :: Read a => String -> a' |
| 20:34:37 | <Graypup_> | haskell errors are crap compared to rust errors |
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| 20:35:01 | <rustisafungus> | Graypup_: yeah i think many in the haskell community recognize that it would be worthwhile investing in developer ergonomics |
| 20:35:09 | <tomsmeding> | ski: or is that really a feature of parametric polymorphism? |
| 20:35:14 | <hyperisco> | okay but "error novel" is like, I hope your terminal has a large enough buffer for this |
| 20:35:15 | <lc_> | I retract my statement about them being exactly the same thing. They are exactly the same thing conditional on being able to assert multiple interfaces per variable. But it is correct to call them "interfaces" |
| 20:35:21 | <maerwald> | Graypup_: not so fast |
| 20:35:21 | <tomsmeding> | you can't write 'read' in Go I think |
| 20:35:33 | <maerwald> | borrow checker errors can be quite confusing too |
| 20:35:42 | <ski> | tomsmeding : type classes depend on parametric polymorphism |
| 20:36:07 | <Graypup_> | that's true but they're doing their best. haskell has too fancy of types to have good errors I suspect |
| 20:36:32 | <ski> | lc_ : how would you call the method of an interface, if there's no object to call it on ? |
| 20:36:47 | <hyperisco> | lc_, if "interface" is meant loosely then I don't disagree. It is just a common tripping point when someone believes type classes = OOP interfaces, or other notions of "interface" |
| 20:37:06 | <dolio> | For some reason, people complain about GHC's errors, and the response seems to be to put ever more information in them. :) |
| 20:37:11 | <maerwald> | Graypup_: you don't have to use that jazz |
| 20:37:18 | <tomsmeding> | lc_: with ski's help, I think indeed the Read type class is a good example of something that doesn't map well to Go |
| 20:37:24 | <Graypup_> | maerwald, yesod go brrr |
| 20:37:32 | <dolio> | Even though it seems like the opposite would be better. |
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| 20:37:56 | <maerwald> | Graypup_: that's exactly why I don't use it |
| 20:38:11 | <hyperisco> | GHC would have great errors probably if everyone stopped using so much inference |
| 20:38:46 | <dolio> | I don't know about that. |
| 20:38:50 | <Graypup_> | maerwald, well I didn't choose to get hired working on a yesod project, and honestly didn't have much of a choice anyway haha |
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| 20:39:15 | <maerwald> | yeah, you might as well go back to Java |
| 20:39:27 | <lc_> | Anyone here got any thoughts about using golang vs. Haskell in a production environment. I come close to switching a lot, but I really don't like meme chasing |
| 20:39:31 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald: that escalated quickly |
| 20:39:32 | <Graypup_> | java has better errors and doesn't require a PhD to understand the type theory |
| 20:39:38 | <hyperisco> | tomsmeding, looks like an interface is a type in Go |
| 20:39:41 | <Graypup_> | oops a controversial statement |
| 20:39:49 | <maerwald> | tomsmeding: that was sarcasm towards yesod |
| 20:39:52 | <dolio> | I don't have a PhD. |
| 20:40:12 | <dolio> | Neither does SPJ, I think. |
| 20:40:16 | <sm[m]> | new-to-you ghc errors can suck, but ghc errors you see repeatedly in production code soon become a non-problem |
| 20:40:18 | <hyperisco> | you can mail my honorary PhD to my PO box |
| 20:40:35 | <tomsmeding> | Graypup_: true, but there's metric tonnes of stuff you can do in haskell that you can't in java :p |
| 20:40:38 | <tomsmeding> | in terms of abstractions |
| 20:41:11 | <maerwald> | lc_: if you like to live in microservice hell, Go is your first choice |
| 20:41:29 | <hyperisco> | lc_, imo that depends on the project. If Go has the right libraries and ecosystem already for the job then have at it |
| 20:41:32 | <tomsmeding> | dolio: SPJ has a honorary doctorate |
| 20:41:39 | <dolio> | Ah, okay. |
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| 20:42:16 | <Graypup_> | tomsmeding, well I literally work on a webapp that has a logic checker embedded in it so... |
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| 20:42:24 | <Graypup_> | yeah java is a no go |
| 20:42:25 | <rustisafungus> | it would be nice if there was a way to do away with the "libraries" entrechment phenomenon to promote language innovation |
| 20:42:51 | <lc_> | maerwald: Completely incorrect. I work on a golang project that is almost entirely a monolith besides its dependencies on NIH apis and infra |
| 20:43:09 | <monochrom> | Graypup_, I think your experience about advanced types is due to using some of the web frameworks that go crazy with advanced types, and is not representative of what other people experience, certainly not what I experience. |
| 20:43:10 | <lc_> | why anyone would suggest that golang --> microservices beyond the fact that its easy to use the http libraries is beyond me |
| 20:43:15 | <maerwald> | lc_: how does that make my statement incorrect |
| 20:43:21 | <tomsmeding> | lc_: maerwald said microservices -> go, but go -> microservices |
| 20:43:23 | <maerwald> | I didn't talk about your work project :) |
| 20:43:23 | <tomsmeding> | ;) |
| 20:43:30 | <tomsmeding> | s/but/not/ |
| 20:43:45 | <lc_> | you got me there |
| 20:44:00 | <monochrom> | But I don't speak badly of Java either because Java has a better exception system. |
| 20:44:08 | <maerwald> | indeed |
| 20:44:17 | <maerwald> | But I still speak badly of it :) |
| 20:44:26 | <dolio> | Yeah, I don't really have many problems with weird type errors. I mainly don't find the list of information about everything in scope in a where clause very useful, and such like. |
| 20:44:27 | <hyperisco> | I read recently how the exception system is terrible in Java and how Haskell does it better, lol |
| 20:44:46 | <monochrom> | We can all speak badly about a bad aspect, as opposed to a whole language. |
| 20:44:49 | <hyperisco> | my experience with checked exceptions is checkered |
| 20:44:53 | <maerwald> | hyperisco: haskell has an exception system? |
| 20:45:04 | <hyperisco> | as a library sure |
| 20:45:09 | <maerwald> | Ah, you mean IO... anything goes |
| 20:45:19 | <Cale> | It has several... |
| 20:45:20 | <monochrom> | Likewise, we can all speak badly about a semantics issue, as opposed to a whole "paradigm". |
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| 20:45:27 | <lc_> | I recently tried this sort of exception handling... scheme in golang. I don't know if it's insane or not |
| 20:45:29 | <hyperisco> | well, the argumentation I was reading liked the unchecked ethos |
| 20:45:32 | <maerwald> | And none of them work consistently :) |
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| 20:46:06 | <lc_> | Basically, when a function would normally return an error, I just give it two callbacks instead. One will func(err error) and the other will func(goodies Goodies) |
| 20:46:34 | <hyperisco> | unchecked may as well mean unityped errors |
| 20:46:40 | <Graypup_> | monochrom, the ones I've had a lot of trouble with are hardly advanced. Just like, figuring wtf they expect me to return (the short version of it), when some person who thought they were smart put the result through 14 monad transformers making the type fall off the screen |
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| 20:47:19 | <maerwald> | transformers aren't worth it... just use IO |
| 20:47:26 | <monochrom> | Well OK, then it is due to some web frameworks going crazy with 14 levels of monad transformers. |
| 20:47:28 | <dolio> | That doesn't seem like it's GHC's fault. |
| 20:47:34 | <hyperisco> | my experience says there is such niche use of it that it wasn't worth my bother |
| 20:47:36 | <monochrom> | But it is still not representative of the majority. |
| 20:47:54 | <hyperisco> | there isn't any point to sussing out different types of errors unless you're going to do something different with them |
| 20:48:01 | <lc_> | I use this scheme to cache and replace globals, too, in golang |
| 20:48:11 | <monochrom> | Call me academic but I refuse to accept that web programming is representative of programming. |
| 20:48:17 | <hyperisco> | and practically speaking, usually just printing a string somewhere or crashing suffices |
| 20:48:18 | <maerwald> | I guess fpcomplete frameworks usually make heavy use of transformers |
| 20:48:19 | <Graypup_> | dolio, I mean, not entirely? but the only way I found out e.g. about the MForm alias was reading docs and other peoples' source coded and the vanishingly few examples |
| 20:48:40 | <Graypup_> | haskellers don't seem to believe in writing examples often which is very frustrating as someone trying to learn |
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| 20:49:10 | <lc_> | I'm a web programmer and it's awful. I wish you could make money programming compilers. Not that I know anything about compilers or compiler design, just... The idea of having a program I just run on my computer that does some computation and then outputs some computation |
| 20:49:12 | <hyperisco> | I thought web framework = TH hell |
| 20:49:24 | <monochrom> | I agree that some of the web frameworks I have seen get close to requiring PhD in CS. |
| 20:49:24 | <lc_> | Instead of having to deal with database errors, pipelines, schema migrations, etc. etc. etc. |
| 20:49:28 | <Graypup_> | oh I have debugged TH bugs in persistent also |
| 20:49:35 | <Graypup_> | that was a bad day |
| 20:49:40 | <monochrom> | I disagree that this is representative of Haskell programming. |
| 20:49:40 | <hyperisco> | like, back in the 2000's "web framework" became inseparable from "code generation" |
| 20:49:43 | <rustisafungus> | lc_: have you used elm? |
| 20:50:00 | <lc_> | rustisafungus: I have not |
| 20:50:24 | <hyperisco> | and all that is happening in Haskell frameworks is a somewhat more disciplined code generation |
| 20:50:26 | <rustisafungus> | lc_: please take a moment and write tic tac toe or something in elm, you will be very pleasantly surprised |
| 20:50:28 | <maerwald> | Theres something missing in Software Engineering... no matter what language you use, imo. It's the "Engineering". |
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| 20:50:39 | <Graypup_> | also the persistent folks said "oh you should read our tests to figure out how to use compound keying" when the tests were incredibly hard to follow since they were doing clever stuff to write the tests concisely at the expense of understanding the code |
| 20:50:47 | <hyperisco> | be it TH or crazy daisy type classes / families |
| 20:50:56 | <Graypup_> | people seem to be very allergic to writing examples |
| 20:50:58 | <lc_> | I should say, back-end web developer*, not front-end. My partner handles that |
| 20:51:16 | <Graypup_> | I hope that the library I maintain is an exception |
| 20:51:21 | <rustisafungus> | lc_: you know, even though you are back-end, give elm a try |
| 20:51:33 | <koala_man> | lc_: Facebook does a lot of compiler work. I had no idea until they released Infer, the Java/ObjC static analysis tool written in OCaml. |
| 20:51:33 | <lc_> | I just write golang stuff. I'd literally kms if I had to write javascript and css for a living, stg |
| 20:51:49 | <rustisafungus> | lc_: elm was designed for a person like you |
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| 20:53:13 | <Cale> | I've been working on GHC lately for one of our clients, and can easily be a good deal more tedious at times than working on our full stack Haskell web/mobile applications. |
| 20:53:22 | <lc_> | I am still giggling that you caught that maerwald btw |
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| 20:53:42 | <lc_> | I normally do that to other ppl I know |
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| 20:54:59 | <qqqqqq> | 6 Proof that 4Jesus worshiped one God same as muslims do: 10- Jesus identifying the commandment: "The Lord our God is One Lord" (Mark 12:29) to be the most important of all As stated in (Mark 12:29): Jesus was asked "Which commandment is the most important of all?" Jesus replied, "This is the most important: Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is One Lord"12 (Mark 12:29) as in Quran: {Say He is God the one (Allah)} [Quran chapter 112]. |
| 20:54:59 | <qqqqqq> | 6 so the above qoute(mark12:29) is a clear evidence that Jesus was directing us towards monothiesm belief and to consider it as the very first of all commandments; 10 also here is the firsts of the The Ten Commandments(to moses) which is similar to what he was directing us towards: [10 1 - I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.] |
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| 20:55:47 | <hyperisco> | maerwald, move fast and break things man |
| 20:55:49 | <sm[m]> | Graypup_: maybe you're ready to give https://ihp.digitallyinduced.com/ a try ? |
| 20:55:53 | <Graypup_> | is god a monad /s |
| 20:55:58 | <monochrom> | Ironically, I would welcome a theology war if it replaced a language war. |
| 20:56:08 | <ski> | Graypup_ : ask Leibniz ? |
| 20:56:11 | <maerwald> | hyperisco: yeah, but forgot my sunglasses |
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| 20:56:52 | <hyperisco> | I need to figure out how to turn renouncing programming into a career |
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| 20:57:00 | <hyperisco> | then I can actually renounce programming |
| 20:57:13 | <hyperisco> | was better as a hobby tbh |
| 20:57:24 | <Graypup_> | sm[m], interesting. maybe I'll use it for my personal projects where I am swearing so hard at excel for being a garbage programming tool incapable of even making hyperlinks and want to immediately rewrite as webapps |
| 20:57:34 | <monochrom> | If you like something, don't turn it into a job. |
| 20:57:50 | <lc_> | THis might be my golang speaking, but it feels like 90% of programming is edge cases and it kinda sucks |
| 20:57:57 | <hyperisco> | yeah but I was mistaken on the reason why |
| 20:58:02 | <monochrom> | A job causes burnout. Do you want burnout from something you like? |
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| 20:58:05 | <sm[m]> | Graypup_: it's new but I think has legs |
| 20:58:18 | <hyperisco> | I thought the reason was because you'd get burned out doing what you used to love to do |
| 20:58:40 | <sm[m]> | (If you can stomach nix) |
| 20:58:50 | <maerwald> | you burn out a few times and then you get input-addicted |
| 20:58:50 | <monochrom> | Yeah that's the reason I know. |
| 20:59:04 | <hyperisco> | and that isn't the issue, as I see it… the issue is that you don't really have enough control over what you do |
| 20:59:12 | <Cale> | monochrom: haha, I wonder what was going through this driveby spammer's head... "This'll blow the minds of all those polytheistic christians in the programming language and software project channels on freenode" |
| 20:59:32 | <glguy> | There's not usually a lot going on in that kind of person's head |
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| 20:59:48 | <maerwald> | Cale: tbf... it could be a teenager.. at least I hope so |
| 20:59:56 | <hyperisco> | so the result is I still say I like to program, but "not this" |
| 20:59:58 | <monochrom> | Cale, I think it's the simpler "this channel size is large enough". |
| 21:00:00 | <Graypup_> | sm[m], funny thing right |
| 21:00:00 | <maerwald> | not sure what to think if an adult wrote that |
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| 21:00:04 | <Graypup_> | I learned nix before haskell |
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| 21:00:28 | <Graypup_> | because I had to fix my project's build system to not require a giant docker container with ghcjs because ghcjs is such a pain to compile |
| 21:00:32 | <hyperisco> | because "programming" can also be hacking on JSON files to get Cloud Formation working |
| 21:00:35 | <monochrom> | Please always apply Occam's razor to human motivation. You'll be more realistic and cynical. |
| 21:00:37 | <sm[m]> | Graypup_: great, this should be perfect for you then |
| 21:00:37 | <Graypup_> | so I can /absolutely/ stomach nix hahahaha |
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| 21:01:29 | <monochrom> | hyperisco: Good point, yeah. |
| 21:02:00 | <maerwald> | glguy: and I was gonna debate Thomas Aquinas god proofs |
| 21:02:07 | <maerwald> | but they didn't stay long enough |
| 21:02:55 | <monochrom> | "beware of mathematicians, category theorists, and Haskellers" >:) |
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| 21:19:19 | <aldum> | I thought the complaint was that (most) haskellers are in the intersection of the former two |
| 21:19:57 | <MarcelineVQ> | most haskellers just want to be Free |
| 21:20:05 | <dolio> | That's not true at all, really. |
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| 21:21:58 | <monochrom> | It's an understandable complaint if you add weights by how vocal each Haskeller is. |
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| 21:24:18 | <dolio> | I don't know if it's even true then, unless your standards for being a 'category theorist' are pretty low. |
| 21:24:25 | <dolio> | Or 'mathematician'. |
| 21:24:45 | <monochrom> | I believe that's exactly what happens in many people's minds. |
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| 21:25:22 | <monochrom> | Right? Yesterday's smbc (https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/number-hunt) is very revealing. |
| 21:26:15 | <monochrom> | People fear what they haven't heard of, and that fear leads to hyperboles and exaggerations. |
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| 21:30:01 | <monochrom> | Or it's a psychological defense mechanism. To feel better that you have a rationalization for why the other person knows something you don't know. |
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| 21:33:08 | <int-e> | monochrom: you're 1 million percent wrong |
| 21:33:22 | <dolio> | Wow, that's pretty wrong. |
| 21:33:44 | <monochrom> | OK, what's right then? |
| 21:33:55 | <int-e> | Sorry, I got stuck on the hyperbole stage. |
| 21:34:05 | <monochrom> | haha OK |
| 21:34:38 | <MarcelineVQ> | trancendentally wrong |
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| 21:35:37 | <monochrom> | A cunning fox, more cunning than the previous one, came across a lot of grapes hung pretty high. The fox really wanted the grapes, but couldn't reach them. |
| 21:35:43 | <MarcelineVQ> | you're extremely wrong, but luckily figuring out how wrong you are is only log_w you |
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| 21:35:59 | <monochrom> | This fox is more cunning than the previous one, so it wouldn't lie to itself "I don't want these grapes anyway". |
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| 21:36:30 | <ski> | oh, fable time :) |
| 21:36:34 | <monochrom> | Its more cunning excuse is "these grapes are for animals with wings. But I'm proudly down-to-earth". |
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| 22:03:54 | <frdg> | what is a nice way to visit every element in a list and perform an IO () on every visit? |
| 22:04:07 | <monochrom> | mapM_ |
| 22:04:18 | <frdg> | ok |
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| 22:04:46 | <monochrom> | Example: mapM_ putStrLn ["1st line", "2nd line"] |
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| 22:06:32 | <hpc> | it may also be more comfortable to do forM_ ["1st line", "2nd line"] $ do {...} |
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| 22:07:53 | <monochrom> | you missed a lambda. forM_ ["1st line", "2nd line"] $ \x -> do {...} |
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| 22:09:56 | <hpc> | oh yeah, i did |
| 22:11:59 | <Boarders> | I was getting a seg fault in my code which read from a file of size 10^9 bytes into a buffer which went away when I upgraded from ghc-8.6.5 to ghc-8.10.1. Does anyone know of any change that could have caused that? I was also using SIMD operations if that is even slightly relevant. |
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| 22:12:33 | <Graypup_> | Boarders, it would probably be very computationally unpleasant but you could bisect it :P |
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| 22:13:42 | <monochrom> | Knowing how ghc-8.8.x fares may help. |
| 22:14:35 | <Boarders> | I was hoping someone familiar with gritter details of ghc dev might have some hunches for the answer |
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| 22:15:41 | <sm[m]> | Boarders: maybe check changelogs between the ghc versions and between the package versions |
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| 22:16:33 | <Graypup_> | what did my debugging book say .... "quit thinking and look" |
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| 22:19:28 | hackage | orthotope 0.1.0.0 - Multidimensional arrays inspired by APL https://hackage.haskell.org/package/orthotope-0.1.0.0 (LennartAugustsson) |
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All times are in UTC on 2020-09-16.