Logs on 2020-09-23 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 00:17:10 | <koz_> | Is there some kind of 'how to haskell in nix gud for nix noobs' guide/writeup/scroll of knowledge I can read? |
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| 00:21:16 | <cr0ssw1nd> | good night |
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| 00:32:03 | <z0> | i just found out something neat |
| 00:33:11 | <z0> | i can paginate hoogle output inside ghci by adding ' :def hoogle \x -> return $ ":!hoogle --count=99 \"" ++ x ++ "\" | less"' to ~/.ghci |
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| 00:34:48 | <z0> | it's great with 'hoogle --info' aswell |
| 00:34:55 | <z0> | i'm happy |
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| 00:35:39 | <z0> | and less works as supposed, regex search and all |
| 00:39:24 | <z0> | come to think of it, its obvious it would |
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| 00:44:52 | <sm[m]> | koz_: maybe https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/hbyaa9/zurihac_haskellnix_tutorial_overhaul/ has clues |
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| 00:52:15 | <newhoggy> | Has anyone noticed that `socketPair` function is missing in `network-3.1.2.0` `Network.Socket` for Windows? |
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| 00:54:25 | <koz_> | sm[m]: Looks good, will read. |
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| 00:57:40 | <sm[m]> | what's a general way to convert Int to CInt ? |
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| 00:59:18 | <sm[m]> | ah, fromIntegral |
| 00:59:26 | <sm[m]> | I was holding it wrong |
| 01:01:53 | <newhoggy> | `socketPair` definitely exists in `network-3.1.1.1` `Network.Socket` for Windows. |
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| 01:05:08 | <newhoggy> | https://github.com/haskell/network/issues/484 |
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| 01:56:12 | <sepi> | https://dpaste.org/M4Te what can I do to not lose my first integer? |
| 01:56:26 | <sepi> | or first on list |
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| 02:01:02 | <glguy> | sepi: sortl [x] = [x]; sortl [] = [] |
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| 02:04:12 | <sepi> | wow I should take a break |
| 02:04:27 | <sepi> | thanks |
| 02:05:58 | <dolio> | Your non-base case isn't right, either. |
| 02:08:44 | <dolio> | I don't think it will really sort. |
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| 02:14:02 | <sepi> | is it because once I get the first x thats smaller than y, I'm just sending it out without checking it with the others? |
| 02:14:56 | <dolio> | Yes, but the other case is just throwing one of them away, too. |
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| 02:18:42 | <sepi> | okay what it seems to be saying if y is greater than x then y becomes x, but if its not greater, its getting overlooked and thrown out for the recursion |
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| 02:18:58 | <sepi> | Should I just take a different approach overall |
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| 02:23:38 | <dolio> | Maybe. I'm not sure what approach you were planning on exactly. |
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| 02:42:32 | <sepi> | is there a skip function? |
| 02:42:57 | hackage | hoauth2 1.15.0 - Haskell OAuth2 authentication client https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hoauth2-1.15.0 (HaishengWu) |
| 02:43:09 | <sepi> | I'm thinking of doing a case compare of and skipping if two elements are equal |
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| 03:15:27 | hackage | language-dickinson 1.3.0.4 - A language for generative literature https://hackage.haskell.org/package/language-dickinson-1.3.0.4 (vmchale) |
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| 03:18:28 | hackage | yesod-core 1.6.18.4 - Creation of type-safe, RESTful web applications. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/yesod-core-1.6.18.4 (MichaelSnoyman) |
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| 03:43:58 | hackage | derive-topdown 0.0.2.1 - Help Haskellers derive class instances for composited data types. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/derive-topdown-0.0.2.1 (songzh) |
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| 04:08:34 | <bitmapper> | Ambiguous module name ‘Numeric.IEEE’: |
| 04:08:34 | <bitmapper> | it was found in multiple packages: ieee754-0.8.0 ieee754-0.8.0 |
| 04:08:34 | <bitmapper> | what |
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| 04:09:25 | <chetak_> | hello |
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| 04:20:02 | <bitmapper> | oh i figured it out |
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| 05:06:30 | <siraben> | haskell-language-server uses 1.0 GB? |
| 05:06:34 | <siraben> | Of ram |
| 05:08:01 | <koz_> | siraben: Wouldn't surprise me. |
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| 05:08:17 | <siraben> | koz_: that's pretty excessive, what's causing it? |
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| 05:08:49 | <koz_> | siraben: I guess you'd need to ask the implementers, but it's not the first time I've heard of outrageous memory use from that. |
| 05:09:03 | <siraben> | Ugh, well. |
| 05:09:12 | <siraben> | At least I have docs and types on hover, I guess. |
| 05:09:35 | <siraben> | It's amazing work but I'd like the mem usage to be lower |
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| 05:15:34 | <siraben> | edwardk: how do I work under a binder in bound? |
| 05:15:46 | <siraben> | Do I just use fmap? |
| 05:17:18 | <siraben> | http://ix.io/2yt3 |
| 05:17:47 | <siraben> | b is (Scope () Exp a) |
| 05:17:50 | <siraben> | is of type* |
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| 05:39:58 | hackage | stm-actor 0.2.1.0 - A simplistic actor model based on STM https://hackage.haskell.org/package/stm-actor-0.2.1.0 (sgschlesinger) |
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| 05:48:20 | <siraben> | koz_: seems to be 700+ MB for every haskell project that is opened |
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| 06:06:36 | <kenran> | Can cabal-install in some way output me the path where it puts the stuff it builds? I need to know the path to the binary created by `cabal build exe:my-package`. |
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| 06:08:55 | <kenran> | Right now I use `cabal install --installdir=something --install-method=copy, but it takes ages because I need to do it for 6 packages. It seems like it starts all over again for every single package when all I need is just to copy the binaries built by `cabal build all` to a certain location. |
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| 06:09:15 | <kenran> | Since we use different OS's, I can't really hard-code the paths into the `dist-newstyle` directory. |
| 06:09:37 | <phadej> | kenran: cabal-install-3.4 has `cabal list-bin` command |
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| 06:17:30 | <kenran> | phadej: what really? dang, I'm on 3.2 with the whole project still. Maybe it's time to try moving to a newer nixpkgs revision after all... |
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| 06:32:37 | <phadej> | 3.4 is not yet released, there is prebuilt binaries though |
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| 07:06:18 | <ixlun> | If I have `data (Ord a) => Foo a = Foo Bar a', how can I make all `Foo's Ord by a? |
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| 07:07:20 | <kenran> | phadej: Ahh too bad. Maybe I can write a nix derivation for pulling the binaries and using those instead of using nixpkgs's cabal-install :thinking: |
| 07:08:59 | <kenran> | thanks for pointing me to it! |
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| 07:11:06 | <Axman6> | ixlun: youy almost certainly do not want to add that constraint to the data definition. just do data Foo a = Foo Bar a; instance Ord a => Ord (Foo a) where compare (Foo _ x) (Foo _ y) = compare x y |
| 07:11:26 | <phadej> | kenran: hmm, dunno if pulling the binaries is very good idea. I'll make a note to make a nix derivation which would allow you to build them from source |
| 07:11:41 | <phadej> | (thus it would work on macOS too e.g.) |
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| 07:13:25 | <kenran> | phadej: wow, that would be awesome, thanks. cabal-install itself is probably also a cabal project I guess? :) |
| 07:13:45 | <phadej> | yes |
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| 07:14:32 | <phadej> | but I wouldn't want to use nixpkgs dependencies, as perfectly it shouldn't require you to change/upgrade anything else |
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| 07:16:06 | <ixlun> | Axman6: Thanks for the answer. Looks as though I've also got to implement Eq in a similar way too: 'Could not deduce (Eq (Foo a))' |
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| 07:16:37 | <Axman6> | you can just add deriving (Eq) if that's the behaviour you want |
| 07:17:13 | <ixlun> | But, would Bar matter in that case? |
| 07:17:20 | <Axman6> | yes |
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| 07:17:43 | <ixlun> | Which I would then presume would affect the ordering? |
| 07:17:44 | <Axman6> | if you want something that's not the default derived behaviour, you'll need to write the code |
| 07:17:54 | <Axman6> | no |
| 07:18:45 | <ixlun> | Why not though? |
| 07:18:50 | <Axman6> | the ordering would be dependent only on the definition of Ord (Foo a), but you probably want to make sure that if x == y then compare x y == EQ, and if x /= y then compare x y /= EQ |
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| 07:21:40 | <ixlun> | I'm guessing that this should be the case as I'm going to prob |
| 07:21:58 | <ixlun> | probably make `a' a Double. |
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| 07:56:59 | <dminuoso> | phadej: Is cabal going to assimilate the entirety of cabal-plan, or just the list-bin part of it? |
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| 08:09:10 | <phadej> | dminuoso: just list-bin part for now |
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| 08:10:02 | <dminuoso> | Fair enough, that's a really welcome addition. :) |
| 08:10:25 | <dminuoso> | (Although the `cabal -v0 exec -- which ...` trick worked well enough, list-bin feels a bit more robust) |
| 08:10:52 | <dminuoso> | And I was always slightly annoyed to have cabal-plan as a dependency on my build runners. :) |
| 08:11:57 | <phadej> | -v0 exec -- which doesn't work on Windows ;) |
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| 08:13:28 | <phadej> | and i'm trying to remember to do bindists for cabal-plan too, e.g. https://github.com/haskell-hvr/cabal-plan/releases/tag/v0.6.2.0 |
| 08:13:48 | <phadej> | (e.g. cabal's own CI is using that...) |
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| 08:39:04 | <fendor> | can haddock highlight json correctly? |
| 08:39:25 | <phadej> | why would it :) |
| 08:39:39 | <phadej> | it doesn't even highlight Haskell |
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| 08:41:27 | <fendor> | phadej, mainly because I think it would be neat in the documentation |
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| 08:41:38 | <fendor> | but I guess, I also want it to highlight haskell :P |
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| 08:41:42 | <fendor> | at least in code-mode |
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| 08:42:02 | <AWizzArd> | Do we have someone here who is using Emacs with the Haskell Language Server? |
| 08:43:10 | <fendor> | AWizzArd, probably, (not me though). You can also ask in #haskell-ide-engine |
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| 08:43:52 | <AWizzArd> | fendor: good, I just wanted to ask if there might be some HLS channel |
| 08:44:44 | <fendor> | AWizzArd, yep, that is the one. All hls/ghcide/hie stuff is discussed in there |
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| 08:45:23 | <AWizzArd> | \o/ |
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| 08:48:08 | <fendor> | phadej, is there a practical/philosophical reason haddock cannot to this? |
| 08:48:22 | <fendor> | or just, no one bothered yet |
| 08:48:38 | <phadej> | fendor: what is the code block is not Haskell, or some pseudohaskell |
| 08:48:49 | <phadej> | how to track all the new extensions GHC acquires |
| 08:49:22 | <phadej> | IMO no highlighting is better than broken one |
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| 08:51:11 | <fendor> | It would already be nice to have some basic highlighting, such as function definitions, types, literals, keywords... I mean, I guess extensions can add new keywords |
| 08:51:54 | <phadej> | have you looked at e.g. LinearTypes syntax changes |
| 08:52:09 | <phadej> | tracking thing like that is just :S |
| 08:52:56 | <phadej> | technically haddock could use ghc-lib to parser the code-snippets to highlight them |
| 08:53:09 | <phadej> | but how to tell what extensions should be enabled (and again, which codeblocks are not Haskell) |
| 08:53:27 | hackage | rebase 1.8 - A more progressive alternative to the "base" package https://hackage.haskell.org/package/rebase-1.8 (NikitaVolkov) |
| 08:53:47 | <phadej> | it's not impossible, but that is harder than you would first think |
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| 08:54:29 | <phadej> | and then there's the bikeshedding about what styles to use ;P |
| 08:54:37 | <phadej> | literally picking the colors |
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| 08:54:55 | <phadej> | I guess sane people just stay away from that kind of issues ;) |
| 08:55:57 | hackage | rerebase 1.8 - Reexports from "base" with a bunch of other standard libraries https://hackage.haskell.org/package/rerebase-1.8 (NikitaVolkov) |
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| 09:03:49 | <fendor> | I did not look at LinearTypes changes so far. I can see the point, it still feels unsatisfying to me, though. |
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| 09:14:57 | hackage | rebase 1.9 - A more progressive alternative to the "base" package https://hackage.haskell.org/package/rebase-1.9 (NikitaVolkov) |
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| 09:16:28 | hackage | rerebase 1.9 - Reexports from "base" with a bunch of other standard libraries https://hackage.haskell.org/package/rerebase-1.9 (NikitaVolkov) |
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| 09:37:13 | <phadej> | hmm. two major version in less than half an hour. rapid development. |
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| 09:40:25 | <maralorn1> | Or rather unstable API.^^ |
| 09:40:59 | <maralorn1> | But there is no Changelog, so I don‘t know. |
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| 09:48:55 | <dminuoso> | Seems like the only change was https://github.com/nikita-volkov/rebase/commit/8c273eede30de7caefa06f9833170ab6ac09ff43 |
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| 09:54:30 | <MrZee> | wait |
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| 09:54:57 | <MrZee> | hi |
| 09:55:45 | <MrZee> | how to private chat in there ? |
| 09:56:21 | <dminuoso> | MrZee: That depends on your IRC client. Most clients have the convention of `/query somename` opening a private message window to another user. |
| 09:57:14 | <MrZee> | for example ? |
| 09:59:34 | <MrZee> | i am quit |
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| 10:11:55 | <MarcelineVQ> | I wish I was quit |
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| 10:18:34 | <edwardk> | siraben: fromScope/toScope are useful for that |
| 10:19:04 | <edwardk> | siraben see one of the million examples of nf implemented in bound for that |
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| 10:43:12 | <dminuoso> | Is there a common class representing a sort almost isomorphism with some `to :: C a => a -> Text; from :: (C a, MonadFail m) => Text -> m a`? Im battling with a bulk of boilerplate when carving out ToJSON, ToSchema, ToRow instances for JSON, Swagger and PostgreSQL. |
| 10:44:50 | <dminuoso> | It'd be so much easier if all those libraries presented a flexible interface similar to makeLensesFor, where you can just specify a mapping of field to some name. |
| 10:45:03 | <phadej> | ToSchema takes Proxy a and produces something something Sceham, ToJSON has toJSON and toEncoding, ToRow is ... -> [Action] |
| 10:45:26 | <phadej> | there's really not much in common to try to abstract further |
| 10:45:43 | <dminuoso> | Mmm, well FromRow at least. |
| 10:47:26 | <dminuoso> | I mean, there's at least a very close correspondence between FromJSON/ToJSON and FromField/ToField. |
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| 10:48:36 | <dminuoso> | The common solution to both is to just use generics, but if I follow that path, I end up with a "database specific" data type, an "external specific data type", and then boilerplaty conversion functions. |
| 10:48:37 | <phadej> | suppose there were some `To tag a` type-class. What kind of function you would write which would have `To tag a => a -> ...` type |
| 10:48:53 | <phadej> | dminuoso: yes, that is right |
| 10:49:05 | <phadej> | database is one (external) interface, JSON API is another |
| 10:49:22 | <phadej> | the fact that you may have same type for both only means that your program is dummy proxy |
| 10:49:43 | <phadej> | (which is not wrong, if that is what it is) |
| 10:50:06 | <dminuoso> | Right, this is the case right now. The point is to remain flexible in the future if the data types ever change, so I dont have much work. |
| 10:50:52 | <dminuoso> | So I can change any three of the representations if need be, without leaking it to the other two |
| 10:51:01 | <phadej> | then, don't use generics :) |
| 10:51:09 | <phadej> | if you don't want have separate types |
| 10:52:22 | <dminuoso> | Perhaps, what I really want is some TH helper for writing isomorphisms where I can just say `makeIso [('fFieldA, 'gFieldA), ('fFieldB', 'gfieldB')]` |
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| 10:54:47 | <dminuoso> | Then I could rely on generic instances whenever I want, keep the representations isolated from each other, and have less boilerplate when converting between the representations (since right *now* its just a mechanical coerce) |
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| 11:33:45 | <sshine> | hi siraben :) |
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| 11:46:04 | <siraben> | edwardk: thanks, i'll look into fromScope/toScope |
| 11:46:14 | <siraben> | hi sshine , what are you working on? |
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| 11:52:22 | <AlexM84> | greetings, a noob haskell question here. Doing some haskell learning for fun (cis194 course), building a binary search tree that is somewhat balanced and it turns out that it appears slower than not balanced one (which becomes a linked list really) when I'm trying to get an element by index. Obviously for balanced tree it is O(logN) and for not |
| 11:52:23 | <AlexM84> | balanced it's O(n) but because haskell rebuilds the tree every time the index function is applied it appears to be slower, cause building of that balanced tree is slower. Can someone explain how to force haskell not to rebuild a data structure every time it is accessed or maybe I'm doing something wrong here? |
| 11:52:50 | <dminuoso> | AlexM84: It's best to share your code for starters. |
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| 11:53:20 | <AlexM84> | (+++) :: (Sized m, Monoid m) => JoinList m a -> JoinList m a -> JoinList m a(+++) Empty x = x(+++) x Empty = x (+++) l@(Single _ _) r@(Single _ _) = Append (tag l <> tag r) l r(+++) l r@Append{} = r +++ l(+++) l@(Append s xs ys) r | isPowerOf2 . getSize . size $ s = Append (tag l <> tag r) l r | otherwise = Append (tag xs <> tag subAppend) xs |
| 11:53:21 | <AlexM84> | subAppend where subAppend = ys +++ r |
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| 11:53:32 | <dminuoso> | Can you share it on a pasting website perhaps like gist? |
| 11:53:45 | <dminuoso> | Also, be sure to share your data definitions |
| 11:53:45 | <AlexM84> | oops, sure, sorry folks, give me a sec |
| 11:53:49 | <AlexM84> | yep |
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| 11:59:05 | <AlexM84> | here you go https://gist.github.com/alexmilshtein/9618faa55821a1beb46498b92d3b1c29 |
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| 12:01:21 | <AlexM84> | if I create a list like so: let lst = L.foldl (+++) Empty $ map (Single (Size 1)) $ [1..100000] and let lstu = L.foldl (++++) Empty $ map (Single (Size 1)) $ [1..100000] |
| 12:01:43 | <AlexM84> | the second one is a lot faster when indexJ function is applied |
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| 12:03:20 | <AlexM84> | update the gist with Sized module |
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| 12:20:08 | <lyxia> | if you apply indexJ just once that makes sense since the first one does a lot of work to rebalance the tree. It only pays off once you use indexing a lot |
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| 12:20:58 | <lyxia> | so you should also share your benchmarking code to make it clear whether that's what you're doing |
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| 12:28:28 | <frdg> | From Database.Persist: `update :: PersistEntity val => Key val -> [Update val] -> m ()` I am having trouble understanding the syntax for the `[Update val]` field. |
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| 12:30:47 | <AlexM84> | thanks lyxia, it does makes sense. I don't have benchmarking code written for it, it's just that I was doing it in ghci with +s set, but I guess ghci is not really effective way of doing this as it is just an interpreter. Compiling the code and applying indexJ for the second time gives an instant result, though |
| 12:31:10 | <frdg> | the function is described as `Update individual fields on a specific record.` But I do not understand how the val from Key val and Update val could be the same type. |
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| 12:34:39 | <jackdk> | They aren't. What is Key, and what is Update? |
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| 12:37:53 | <frdg> | key and update are the types |
| 12:38:51 | <frdg> | but wouldn't the val in `Key val` and `Update val` be the same val? |
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| 12:41:34 | <lyxia> | AlexM84: even if you're writing it by hand in ghci it's code you write to measure the performance of something, that's benchmarking code, and it's always worth sharing! |
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| 12:42:37 | <frdg> | jackdk: I figured it out. |
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| 12:42:49 | <jackdk> | frdg: cool |
| 12:43:45 | <dminuoso> | AlexM84: Indeed, measuring performance with optimizations disabled can tell you a lot. Sometimes GHC is able to compensate for badly written code, but that should never be relied on. :) |
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| 12:44:04 | <dminuoso> | Algorithmic complexity should in general not depend on optimizations |
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| 12:47:45 | <AlexM84> | lyxia, dminuoso: thanks for suggestions, I've added the line of code I used in ghci to test this out into the gist I shared earlier |
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| 12:48:41 | <AlexM84> | I wonder if it's possible to force ghci not to rebuild the tree if it's accessed subsequently for indexing |
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| 12:49:38 | <ahri> | I have a stack project and I want to start using GHCJS, I've got a (probably) working binary via some nix magic (that I don't really understand and don't want to jump into that rabbit hole just now) - so now I want to build my project with stack/cabal and tell them to use the (global) GHCJS binary as the compiler - I have tried to read the docs and |
| 12:49:38 | <ahri> | search around but it's really not clear to me how I can achieve this last step - any help? |
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| 13:03:19 | <sshine> | ahri, for Stack it seems you want 'system-ghc: true' in case your GHCJS is the system GHC. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/44460120/haskell-stack-doesnt-use-system-ghc |
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| 13:04:16 | <sshine> | ahri, but my guess is you'll run into deeper problems here because of this comment: Note that stack can only use a system GHC installation if its version is compatible with the configuration of the current project, particularly the resolver setting. |
| 13:04:33 | <sshine> | and I'm guessing GHCJS doesn't have a valid Stackage resolver :) |
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| 13:04:49 | <sshine> | but I could be wrong... I don't think Stack + GHCJS is a common combo. |
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| 13:05:18 | <ahri> | no I was wondering about that, I can give it a resolver for the corresponding GHC version this GHCJS is based on, but I have no idea whether that will work |
| 13:05:41 | <sshine> | ahri, did you try with cabal yet? since cabal doesn't try to manage GHC, it should gladly pick whatever GHC you've got. |
| 13:06:05 | <ahri> | not yet, I'm not sure how to tell it to to use my GHCJS binary |
| 13:06:09 | <sshine> | probably not gonna work well... isn't GHCJS a very old GHC? |
| 13:06:27 | <sshine> | what happens if you just run cabal? it uses the wrong GHC? |
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| 13:07:02 | <sshine> | ahri, have you considered looking for a template for your GHCJS project? some of this configuration could come for free. |
| 13:07:15 | <ahri> | the ghcjs binary is called "ghcjs" so I don't know how it would even look for that |
| 13:07:20 | <sshine> | OK. |
| 13:07:30 | <ahri> | as for its age, I have ghcjs based on ghc 8.6.2 so it's not bad |
| 13:08:03 | <phadej> | cabal build takes --ghcjs and --with-compiler flags |
| 13:08:28 | <ahri> | a template might be useful, I'll have a look |
| 13:08:32 | <sshine> | oh wow, I thought GHCJS was still on 7.x :) |
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| 13:08:38 | <ahri> | phadej: oh cool, thanks |
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| 13:09:13 | <ahri> | yeah so my current project is actually based on Haste, which is stuck on 7.x, this is why I want to try out ghcjs! |
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| 13:13:17 | <frdg> | I have lists List1 and List2. I would like to compare the head of List1 with every element of List2, then I would like to do the same with List1's tail. What is a nice way to do this? |
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| 13:17:21 | <frdg> | this is like a nested loop in other languages now that I think about it. |
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| 13:18:40 | <phadej> | :t \xs ys m -> Data.Foldable.for_ xs $ \x -> Data.Foldable.for_ ys $ \y -> m x y |
| 13:18:42 | <lambdabot> | (Applicative f, Foldable t1, Foldable t2) => t1 t3 -> t2 t4 -> (t3 -> t4 -> f b) -> f () |
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| 13:25:38 | <pjb> | frdg: compareHeadWithElements list1 list2 = map (\e -> (head list1) < e) list2 compareHeadWithElements [3, 2, 1] [1, 2, 3, 4, 5] => [False,False,False,True,True] |
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| 13:26:14 | <hololeap> | frdg: what type signature do you want it to have? it isn't clear (to me) what you want to do |
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| 13:27:15 | <pjb> | frdg: how do you compare elements of list2 with an element of list1 and also with a tail of list1? |
| 13:27:27 | hackage | primal 0.2.0.0 - Primeval world of Haskell. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/primal-0.2.0.0 (lehins) |
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| 13:27:33 | <hololeap> | do you want to have a growing list of every comparison, or do you want to stop when a comparison has a certain result? |
| 13:28:07 | <pjb> | do you want to compare all the elements of list1 with all the elements of list2? That would seem more logical. |
| 13:29:15 | <hololeap> | % liftA2 compare [1,2,3] [2,3,4] |
| 13:29:16 | <yahb> | hololeap: [LT,LT,LT,EQ,LT,LT,GT,EQ,LT] |
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| 13:29:53 | <pjb> | compareLists list1 list2 = map (\e1 -> map (\e2 -> e1 < e2) list2) list1 ; compareLists [3, 2, 1] [1, 2, 3, 4, 5] ==> [[False,False,False,True,True],[False,False,True,True,True],[False,True,True,True,True]] |
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| 13:35:27 | hackage | primal-memory 0.2.0.0 - Unified interface for memory managemenet. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/primal-memory-0.2.0.0 (lehins) |
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| 13:57:37 | <shad0w_> | https://byorgey.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/abstraction-intuition-and-the-monad-tutorial-fallacy/ |
| 13:58:17 | <shad0w_> | did ^that start the entire monads are like burritos thing ? |
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| 14:08:25 | <dminuoso> | shad0w_: No |
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| 14:10:11 | <merijn> | No, a blogpost going "monads are like burritos" started that |
| 14:10:15 | <merijn> | Which is objectively stupid |
| 14:10:22 | <merijn> | Because monads aren't like burritos |
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| 14:10:31 | <merijn> | *co*monads are like burritos |
| 14:10:31 | <AWizzArd> | merijn: do you use Emacs and the Haskell Language Server? |
| 14:10:39 | <merijn> | "it's hard to keep things inside" |
| 14:10:44 | <merijn> | AWizzArd: No and no :p |
| 14:10:44 | <AWizzArd> | hah :) |
| 14:10:55 | <AWizzArd> | merijn: omg, vi? |
| 14:11:21 | <merijn> | vim and some crazy version of ghcide which works so I refuse to touch it :p |
| 14:11:55 | <pjb> | wise programmer! |
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| 14:14:24 | <shad0w_> | AWizzArd: lmao not that you asked but, yes and yes ; ) |
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| 14:15:32 | <AWizzArd> | shad0w_: excellent, just one question: how do I know that my installation is working correctly? How can I trigger something special that shows me "yup, this thing IS working"? |
| 14:15:32 | <shad0w_> | merijn: DONT TOUCH THAT. i was on version that worked. worked goood for months. then i updated without looking like a moron. |
| 14:15:57 | <shad0w_> | AWizzArd: you open a haskell file. look at the mode-line bellow |
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| 14:16:23 | <shad0w_> | if lsp-mode and lsp-haskell are installed and lsp-mode is hooked to haskell-mode |
| 14:16:24 | <sshine> | AWizzArd, I experienced that Haskell's LSP + Emacs LSP = really ugly. |
| 14:16:31 | <merijn> | shad0w_: I've been working on this codebase for like 4 years without ghcide, so I'll be fine. But the fact that after opening it suddenly worked after updating is nice :) |
| 14:16:53 | <sshine> | AWizzArd, maybe I'm an Emacs retard, but the "popups" would basically just flood the buffer in unwanted ways. it was not nice to look at yet. and it seemed somewhat easy to fix, but I couldn't bother. |
| 14:17:15 | <sshine> | AWizzArd, this was a year ago. maybe something great happened here. the LSP part has surely matured. :) |
| 14:17:26 | <AWizzArd> | sshine: so far I am used to Intero, which seems to offer the best Haskell experience yet. |
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| 14:17:41 | <sshine> | AWizzArd, ah ok. did you try VSCode yet? |
| 14:17:51 | <shad0w_> | AWizzArd: first you'd see LSP[lsp-haskell:123456] in the modline |
| 14:18:14 | <sshine> | AWizzArd, I did try Intero. it was good. |
| 14:18:19 | <shad0w_> | second there'd be all kinds of popups as you start typing. autocomplete. type informations. really hard to miss |
| 14:18:36 | <sshine> | yeah, it really kinda floods your screen. e.g. if your cursor rests on an identifier, it provides a type hint. |
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| 14:19:03 | <frdg> | hololeap , pjb: sorry for late response. Here is a better explanation of what I would like to do. I have a predicate `p :: a -> b -> Bool`. I would like to apply `p` to with each comparison of the head of List1 with the elements of List2. If the predicate holds I would like to perform `IO ()` and run the function again with the tail of List1. |
| 14:19:28 | sshine | will move back to Emacs once he has a day to pull out of his calendar. ;-) |
| 14:19:31 | <AWizzArd> | shad0w_: okay, I’ll be looking for those popups and autocompletions. |
| 14:19:51 | <AWizzArd> | sshine: very good. Emacs is the one and only (: |
| 14:19:51 | <frdg> | the function should terminate if and only if List1 is empty |
| 14:20:08 | <sshine> | AWizzArd, VSCode is pretty neat. but I miss my shortcuts. |
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| 14:20:42 | <AWizzArd> | sshine: I gave vscode a few tries. Not bad at all. |
| 14:21:16 | <shad0w_> | make sure you turn on interactive-haskell-mode too |
| 14:21:22 | <shad0w_> | AWizzArd: ^ |
| 14:21:32 | <sshine> | frdg, so... for_ xs (\x -> for_ ys (\y -> when (p x y) m)) |
| 14:21:35 | <shad0w_> | i found mine doesn't really work if i dont do that |
| 14:22:02 | <Guest58863> | vs code is really good |
| 14:22:15 | <sshine> | frdg, where those are Data.Foldable.for_ and Control.Monad.when |
| 14:22:24 | <shad0w_> | i installed vs code today to see what all the buzz is about |
| 14:22:32 | <shad0w_> | nope'd in 15 minutes : / |
| 14:22:37 | <frdg> | sshine: I did not think of using when. What is `m` in the expression? |
| 14:22:50 | <AWizzArd> | frdg: in your type signature you promise that you will deliver a pure value, a Bool. So you won’t be able to run IO action, as you didn’t promise it in the sig. |
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| 14:23:35 | <sshine> | shad0w_, sure, I get it. but what I'm amazed about is: did you notice that it just downloaded and compiled the necessary LSP stuff? the user experience, beyond your unfortunate opinions about what a good editor is, is really great. :) (unfortunately I have too many opinions, too, which is why I have to run a combination of nvim, emacs and vscode.) |
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| 14:24:40 | <shad0w_> | sshine: i already had all the lsp-stuff installed on my system so it didn't do anything |
| 14:24:41 | <pjb> | frdg: the problem is that with list :: [a] head list :: a and tail list :: [a] therefore you cannot use the sane p to compare head list and tail list with the elements of list2. |
| 14:24:42 | <AWizzArd> | shad0w_: is there a way to get the signature of a part of an expression? |
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| 14:24:59 | <shad0w_> | AWizzArd: the wut? |
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| 14:25:18 | <shad0w_> | sshine: but what it did was work right away. |
| 14:25:20 | <AWizzArd> | shad0w_: I have: foo a b c And I want to know what type `foo a b` has. |
| 14:25:43 | <shad0w_> | in emacs? sure |
| 14:25:48 | <AWizzArd> | In Intero I can simply mark `foo a b` and will see its signature. The sig of the marked expression. |
| 14:26:21 | <justsomeguy> | What's a good rule of thumb for when to use tuples rather than record types or a data structure like Map? |
| 14:27:37 | <shad0w_> | AWizzArd: the way i do it is turn on the interactive-haskell-mode |
| 14:27:49 | <shad0w_> | go C-c C-l |
| 14:27:51 | <justsomeguy> | (Tuples seem strange to me, so I'd like to only use them when appropriate. “length (1,2)” or ``fmap (+3) (1,2)” don't do what I'd expect, for example.) |
| 14:28:01 | <shad0w_> | i'll load the entire file in a ghci buffer for you |
| 14:28:08 | <shad0w_> | you could just do |
| 14:28:12 | <shad0w_> | :t foo a b |
| 14:28:14 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 14:28:14 | <lambdabot> | • Variable not in scope: foo :: Expr -> Expr -> t |
| 14:28:14 | <lambdabot> | • Perhaps you meant ‘for’ (imported from Data.Traversable) |
| 14:28:16 | <shad0w_> | like you do in ghc |
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| 14:28:46 | <pjb> | frdg: what does the "predicate holds" mean when comparing head list1 to each element of list2 gives a list of booleans? (also you have to check for the end of the list1). |
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| 14:29:05 | <shad0w_> | it might seem like an overkill, but what i like about it is consistency : ) |
| 14:29:07 | <pjb> | frdg: do you want to do a OR or an AND or some other reduction of the results? (majority vote? something?) |
| 14:29:12 | <Cale> | justsomeguy: With respect to the Functor/Traversable/Foldable instances, you should think of pairs as being containers that hold a single element (the last component) with an additional "label" (the first component) |
| 14:29:38 | <frdg> | pjb: predicate holds just means it returns true. This should be an OR reduction I believe |
| 14:30:31 | <Cale> | justsomeguy: They're good as abstract things, but often you will want to transition to defining a proper data type once you have good names for the fields and especially if there are more than two of them |
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| 14:32:17 | <frdg> | Though I know that there exists exactly one element in List2 such that `p (Head List1) ` will hold. |
| 14:32:59 | <frdg> | for all elements in List1. |
| 14:33:08 | <AWizzArd> | any :: Foldable t => (a -> Bool) -> t a -> Bool |
| 14:33:46 | <AWizzArd> | shad0w_: ah okay, so it comes with a repl |
| 14:34:16 | <justsomeguy> | Cale: Would you say it's a good idea to use tuples mostly to facilitate passing around small collections of short-lived things using pattern matching? |
| 14:34:20 | <shad0w_> | AWizzArd: how cool is that? |
| 14:34:28 | <shad0w_> | you can do all kinds of stuff |
| 14:34:40 | <AWizzArd> | shad0w_: yet still, I can’t see the signature easily. Even a repl won’t help me, because I won’t be "inside" the right context. |
| 14:34:44 | <shad0w_> | it's a haskell-mode thing. nothing to do with lsp though |
| 14:35:02 | <AWizzArd> | shad0w_: yes cool, but it is also required. repl is a must. |
| 14:35:09 | <shad0w_> | lsp would show you the type of the entire thing. |
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| 14:35:32 | <AWizzArd> | shad0w_: okay, I will then have to see how to get it showing the sig of marked expressions |
| 14:35:35 | <shad0w_> | there would probably some way to see partial types, but i am not aware of the lsp way to do it yet. |
| 14:35:47 | <AWizzArd> | Yeah, maybe they don’t have it yet. |
| 14:35:47 | <Cale> | justsomeguy: I guess, though the same thing could be said of almost any user defined data type as well, so I don't know |
| 14:36:02 | <shad0w_> | AWizzArd: dante and intero were good with this simple stuff |
| 14:36:32 | <AWizzArd> | shad0w_: totally! |
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| 14:36:50 | <shad0w_> | maybe you could still use them alongside lsp ? |
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| 14:38:24 | <justsomeguy> | I guess I'll just have to get a feel for it through experience. Your tip about Functor/Traversable/Foldable helps. Thanks Cale :) |
| 14:38:26 | <shad0w_> | AWizzArd: just checked. you sure can |
| 14:38:31 | <sshine> | justsomeguy, I might use a record if I'm passing a value past a boundary that is somewhat a public API... when to name things is probably not specific to Haskell, or even FP. |
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| 14:38:54 | <shad0w_> | not sure if they'll interfere with each other in complex cases tho |
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| 14:39:05 | <Cale> | justsomeguy: Yeah, if you think of (k,v) as being a "key/value" pair, it might make more sense how e.g. fmap acts on the value, but not the key |
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| 14:39:29 | <sshine> | justsomeguy, if you can resolve your tupling in the same line as you introduce them, that's excellent. :) |
| 14:39:36 | <shad0w_> | i just did `dante-mode` in a lsp-haskell enabled buffer and asked for type info. no problems. |
| 14:39:45 | <Cale> | justsomeguy: But also, it works the way that it does because that is literally the only legal thing it could do -- if you try writing the instance, you'll see, the type system enforces it. |
| 14:39:46 | <sshine> | shad0w_, nice. |
| 14:39:58 | <sshine> | shad0w_, makes me want to try it soon again. |
| 14:40:08 | <shad0w_> | they're all minor mode after-all |
| 14:40:30 | <shad0w_> | lsps goto definition and instance highlighting are dope |
| 14:40:39 | <shad0w_> | dante for type stuff. |
| 14:40:49 | <shad0w_> | sweet win. |
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| 14:40:53 | <shad0w_> | or so it seems lol |
| 14:42:00 | <sshine> | didn't try dante-mode before. |
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| 14:46:22 | <pjb> | frdg: and once we've compared the tail what do we do? Do you want to reduce also with each elements of list1? |
| 14:46:22 | <pjb> | |
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| 14:51:41 | <frdg> | pjb: Here is the code I am talking about. I need to do some more work to be able to tell if it is behaving correctly. All credit to sshine here. https://dpaste.org/9Zyd |
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| 15:23:53 | <Guest58863> | https://oleg.fi/gists/posts/2020-08-04-git-badc0de.html is another very nice post from phadej |
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| 15:27:01 | <Guest58863> | the GC statistics look pretty awesome, it would be interesting to see the original unoptimised stats |
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| 15:39:13 | <phadej> | Guest58863: they looked bad. |
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| 15:46:37 | <Guest58863> | also interesting: Haskell's Children, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24565019 |
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| 16:10:47 | <slack1256> | Has anyone done "sed scripts" but with the pipes-ecosystem and a parser combinator library? |
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| 16:11:26 | <maerwald> | slack1256: that is planned for streamly, but I don't think they're there yet |
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| 16:12:52 | <slack1256> | Mmm well any streaming library works. The thing is how to operate over each line of text, so example to substitute strings or having more flexibility. |
| 16:13:06 | <slack1256> | I can always yield the lines where I don't do anything. |
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| 16:16:45 | <theopcoder> | hello |
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| 16:23:08 | <AWizzArd> | For a serious app I’m using servant with many routes. Now I want to build a tiny (dockerized) service. Still servant? Maybe snap? Directly warp? I just want a minimalistic setup. |
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| 16:24:41 | <maerwald> | why do you use servant? |
| 16:25:56 | <maerwald> | last time I touched servant, I had to edit 8 files in total to add a handler |
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| 16:26:55 | <maerwald> | scotty and snap are both simpler |
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| 16:27:45 | <Guest58863> | slack1256: I think one or two such tools are on hackage, but I don't remember their names |
| 16:28:06 | <Guest58863> | is there any hoogle instance that covers all of hackage ? |
| 16:28:12 | <maerwald> | Snap may be the thing with the best simplicity-feature balance |
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| 16:28:38 | <maerwald> | I wouldn't mind using it for both toy and serious projects |
| 16:29:01 | <Guest58863> | slack1256: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/haskell-awk I guess but it may not be streaming in that sense |
| 16:29:08 | <AWizzArd> | maerwald: okay, will try snap. I want to use it programatically and not use the snap exe as shown in the quick tutorial. |
| 16:29:16 | <maerwald> | if you don't have a real consumer of your servant types... then there's no point |
| 16:30:16 | <AWizzArd> | maerwald: we liked the idea in servant that the handlers are described in types. I only need to edit in some cases one single file to change/add a route to servant. |
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| 16:30:47 | <maerwald> | the point of having it as types is to have consumers of those types... otherwise there's no point |
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| 16:31:14 | <maerwald> | (consumers being a haskell client or something that generates clients based on them) |
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| 16:31:27 | <AWizzArd> | maerwald: I see what you mean. |
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| 16:32:40 | <cr0ssw1nd> | hey |
| 16:34:32 | <cr0ssw1nd> | curious, why ByteString is a "String" and not "Array" ? |
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| 16:34:50 | <AWizzArd> | maerwald: what package do I need to use if I just want to use snap programatically? snap-server? snap-core? |
| 16:35:44 | <geekosaur> | it's an array underneath. but it exports a String interface, not an Array (those already exist elsewhere, see Vector and Array) |
| 16:35:56 | <maerwald> | AWizzArd: usually both |
| 16:36:06 | <maerwald> | AWizzArd: https://github.com/tomsmeding/pastebin-haskell is a simple example |
| 16:36:21 | <geekosaur> | basically, you use types in part to say how you want to make use of the data |
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| 16:36:52 | <maerwald> | cr0ssw1nd: it's an unfortunate name overall too |
| 16:37:20 | <cr0ssw1nd> | geekosaur, so it is usually assumed that ByteString is a piece of text? |
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| 16:37:49 | <geekosaur> | ByteString treats it more like a string than an array, including that you typically stream it instead of cutting it into individual characters (although as a string it misses some things like encoding support, so you don't want to treat it *too* much like a string) |
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| 16:38:20 | <geekosaur> | and no, unless you mean raw "text" as transmitted over the internet |
| 16:38:24 | <cr0ssw1nd> | got it, kinds semi-string semi-bytes |
| 16:38:37 | <maerwald> | geekosaur: it's the other way around :p String loses encoding info, ByteString doesn't. But you have to carry it around or programmatically figure it out |
| 16:38:47 | <geekosaur> | but even then you want to distinguish between the raw octet form that's transmitted and characters in some useful encoding |
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| 16:38:51 | <cr0ssw1nd> | I'm trying to implement conversion of any type (String) into UUID |
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| 16:39:25 | <cr0ssw1nd> | the idea was to convert to ByteString, take 2 halves, hash them into Int, total I have 128 bit, then I can convert to UUID |
| 16:39:45 | <cr0ssw1nd> | but what I found that UUId is being parsed from ByteString assuming that there are - characters |
| 16:39:50 | <cr0ssw1nd> | '-' |
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| 16:40:21 | <cr0ssw1nd> | (conversion from String to ByteString in the beginning actually makes no sens, I can hash halves of just String) |
| 16:41:11 | <cr0ssw1nd> | https://github.com/wireapp/wire-server/blob/develop/libs/types-common/src/Data/Id.hs#L146 |
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| 16:41:36 | <geekosaur> | that's pretty unfortunate, I'd expect the direct encoding myself given what ByteString is. but someone apparently used it as a textual type. (as maerwald said, ByteString is somewhat unfortunately named) |
| 16:42:20 | <maerwald> | what about ByteStream |
| 16:42:25 | <geekosaur> | that said,many network standards talk about octet strings and I'd again argue they're not really that string-like |
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| 16:42:30 | <geekosaur> | that'd be better, yes |
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| 16:42:51 | <geekosaur> | some standards talk about octet sequences which would also be better, but that's uncommon iirc |
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| 16:47:27 | <dolio> | "String" is a synonym for array or list in English. |
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| 16:47:59 | <cr0ssw1nd> | hmm |
| 16:48:00 | <dolio> | And mathematicians sometimes refer to values of free monoids/groups as "words". |
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| 16:48:14 | <cr0ssw1nd> | makes sense actually |
| 16:48:25 | <geekosaur> | I'm not sure I'd drag English into the discussion. Consider "sort" |
| 16:48:51 | <cr0ssw1nd> | but if list and string are the same, then there is even more confusion |
| 16:49:06 | <maerwald> | :t sort of |
| 16:49:08 | <lambdabot> | error: parse error on input ‘of’ |
| 16:49:36 | <dolio> | The jargon you're talking about is borrowed from English. |
| 16:50:07 | <geekosaur> | also it turns out that the basic String type is a list |
| 16:50:16 | <maerwald> | I have a bytestring theory |
| 16:50:22 | <yushyin> | in class we often called a list of bits a bitstring, for me bytestring is just bitstring in eightfold! |
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| 16:52:47 | <cr0ssw1nd> | technically all maths are deeply connected to texts :) |
| 16:53:12 | <cr0ssw1nd> | would be difficult to do it without text symbols |
| 16:53:24 | <cr0ssw1nd> | at least in the form it developed |
| 16:54:02 | <dolio> | Anyhow, it's the same as "list" not necessarily meaning "linked list" to all people, even though in a specifically Haskell context, that's what people usually mean it to refer to. |
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| 16:57:25 | <cr0ssw1nd> | what is the quicker way to do this? |
| 16:57:26 | <cr0ssw1nd> | Int -> (Word16, Word16, Word16, Word16) |
| 16:57:34 | <cr0ssw1nd> | *quickest |
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| 16:58:24 | <cr0ssw1nd> | hmm, I see "foundation" package |
| 16:58:30 | <cr0ssw1nd> | but not sure that I should try it |
| 16:58:34 | <yushyin> | better name would be CharString instead of String :P |
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| 16:58:49 | <davean> | cr0ssw1nd: You can but Data.Bits for example. |
| 16:59:06 | <davean> | cr0ssw1nd: sadly (Word16, Word16, Word16, Word16) doesn't share a representation with Int. |
| 16:59:21 | <cr0ssw1nd> | wait |
| 16:59:32 | <cr0ssw1nd> | Int isn't 64 bit? |
| 16:59:34 | <davean> | so its just shifts and ands |
| 16:59:47 | <geekosaur> | the problem is, so is Word16 |
| 16:59:55 | <davean> | Might not be, but if it was it definately wouldn't share a representation |
| 17:00:01 | <davean> | Int64 is 64bits |
| 17:00:03 | <dolio> | There's a whole module for Word8-based stuff on each bytestring type. |
| 17:00:04 | <davean> | Int is whatever you get |
| 17:00:14 | <davean> | Word16 is platform word size also |
| 17:00:17 | <davean> | plus () boxes |
| 17:00:21 | <davean> | so thats actually 4 pointers |
| 17:00:24 | <dolio> | And the character ones are the ones that specifically mention characters. |
| 17:00:26 | <geekosaur> | ghc doesn't like to deal with things smaller than a machine word |
| 17:00:31 | <cr0ssw1nd> | [-2^29 .. 2^29-1] |
| 17:00:36 | <cr0ssw1nd> | so 2^30 total |
| 17:00:41 | <cr0ssw1nd> | why so? |
| 17:00:52 | <cr0ssw1nd> | why not 2^32 |
| 17:00:54 | <davean> | cr0ssw1nd: Marking bits. |
| 17:00:58 | <geekosaur> | the standard mandates that as a minimum size, leaving room for tag bits |
| 17:01:06 | <davean> | cr0ssw1nd: but, you generally do get 64bits on 64bit platforms |
| 17:01:09 | <geekosaur> | ghc happens to ignore the standard there |
| 17:01:13 | <davean> | theres just not guarrentee |
| 17:01:22 | <davean> | but if you demand Int64, use Int64 |
| 17:01:27 | <davean> | Don't guess at what a thing means |
| 17:01:34 | monochrom | frowns. That's not "ingore", that's "exceed". |
| 17:01:47 | <cr0ssw1nd> | but what metadata needed from integer? |
| 17:02:07 | <cr0ssw1nd> | Int is used by Hashable.. |
| 17:02:07 | <davean> | cr0ssw1nd: things like GC tags |
| 17:02:09 | <geekosaur> | whether the garbage collector has seen that particular value yet or not |
| 17:02:18 | <cr0ssw1nd> | davean, ooh, ok |
| 17:02:21 | <cr0ssw1nd> | now I get it |
| 17:02:27 | <geekosaur> | which isn't relevant to ghc's garbage collector but is to some others |
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| 17:02:46 | <davean> | cr0ssw1nd: It allows a less overhead for Int in some prepresentations (runtime systems) |
| 17:02:55 | <davean> | cr0ssw1nd: which if you wanted a really small Haskell program for example ... |
| 17:03:07 | <davean> | it COULD be useful, GHC doesn't use it, but also Int would be 32 bits on 32 bit platforms |
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| 17:03:18 | <davean> | so really, why not say what you want? |
| 17:03:21 | <davean> | And yes 'hashab'e |
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| 17:03:30 | <davean> | but hashable doesn't even hash |
| 17:03:55 | <davean> | http://hackage.haskell.org/package/hashable-1.3.0.0/docs/src/Data.Hashable.Class.html#line-312 |
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| 17:03:59 | <AWizzArd> | maerwald: oki thanks, i got it working with a basic route and believe I can make it do something meaningful from here. |
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| 17:04:43 | <davean> | (You may just want to use something that depends on hashable mind you) |
| 17:04:55 | <cr0ssw1nd> | wait.. doesn't hash? |
| 17:04:56 | <davean> | (but its somewhat important to know that hashable is a lie) |
| 17:04:59 | <davean> | cr0ssw1nd: look at that code |
| 17:05:01 | <davean> | it does not hash |
| 17:05:10 | <davean> | hash = id |
| 17:05:32 | <davean> | Like seriously the package should have that in big blinding letters. |
| 17:05:39 | <cr0ssw1nd> | for Int |
| 17:05:58 | <cr0ssw1nd> | but other instances are different |
| 17:06:03 | <davean> | For many things, 'Hashable' doesn't mean you get any independency |
| 17:06:10 | <davean> | cr0ssw1nd: some of them |
| 17:06:31 | <davean> | 'Hashable' isn't even pairwise independent though. |
| 17:06:37 | <davean> | or anything. |
| 17:06:38 | <cr0ssw1nd> | I guess I should take some lib then |
| 17:06:47 | <davean> | it depends on what you're doing |
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| 17:06:50 | <monochrom> | id is as pairwise independent as you can get |
| 17:06:56 | <davean> | That may or may not be fine, but you need to know it |
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| 17:07:40 | <davean> | monochrom: I'd have to double check, I remember this ruining a lot of things because of its predicability. |
| 17:08:07 | <monochrom> | Do you have hash tables in mind? |
| 17:08:19 | <davean> | No, mostly it was sketches |
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| 17:08:24 | <monochrom> | Or do you have cryptography in minad? |
| 17:08:37 | <davean> | No, cryptography requires cryptographicly secure hashes |
| 17:08:38 | <monochrom> | Because hashable is for hash tables only. |
| 17:08:52 | <davean> | I'm talking hashtable based datastructures |
| 17:08:54 | <dolio> | Is there a better name for what hashable does? Seems like there should be. |
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| 17:09:56 | <dolio> | id isn't really even a good hash for hashtables, no? Although they're not really used for hashtables. |
| 17:10:14 | <davean> | dolio: no, its really not :/ |
| 17:10:38 | <cr0ssw1nd> | davean, I just want to get deterministically random `UUID`s from `String`s |
| 17:10:40 | <dolio> | It's probably nice in whatever trie sort of thing unordered containers uses. |
| 17:10:49 | <cr0ssw1nd> | I see the answer at SO though |
| 17:11:01 | <cr0ssw1nd> | no hashtables |
| 17:11:05 | <cr0ssw1nd> | no cryptography |
| 17:11:06 | <davean> | cr0ssw1nd: use http://hackage.haskell.org/package/uuid then - what you're doing WOULD NOT GENERATE A VALID UUID |
| 17:11:28 | <davean> | UUIDs have standards |
| 17:11:31 | <davean> | its in the RFC |
| 17:11:38 | <davean> | 'uuid' generates them via said standard |
| 17:11:46 | <cr0ssw1nd> | I have to get value of this interface actually https://github.com/wireapp/wire-server/blob/develop/libs/types-common/src/Data/Id.hs#L146 |
| 17:11:56 | <cr0ssw1nd> | yeah but bits are bits, no? |
| 17:11:56 | <davean> | you want version 3 or 5 |
| 17:12:01 | <davean> | cr0ssw1nd: No |
| 17:12:09 | <davean> | UUIDs have structure |
| 17:12:10 | <cr0ssw1nd> | so it is not true 128 bits? |
| 17:12:26 | <cr0ssw1nd> | it's just size of it but not amount of information there? |
| 17:12:28 | <davean> | UUIDs have structure and guarrentees |
| 17:12:46 | <cr0ssw1nd> | but look at the code by link |
| 17:12:53 | <cr0ssw1nd> | so it is not conventional UUID? |
| 17:13:02 | <cr0ssw1nd> | just hexdigits |
| 17:13:04 | <dolio> | WordTrieKeyable |
| 17:13:07 | <cr0ssw1nd> | with dashes |
| 17:13:20 | <davean> | cr0ssw1nd: thats how you read one, not what the data means. |
| 17:13:28 | <davean> | Theres dashes where there are for a reason. |
| 17:13:35 | <cr0ssw1nd> | damn |
| 17:13:45 | <davean> | 'uuid' will generate them as you want |
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| 17:14:10 | <davean> | V1 are based off the mac address of the computer they're generated, a random generation number, and the time |
| 17:14:26 | <davean> | thats how they know its unique for example, because MAC addresses were not for reuse (sadly VMs ignored that) |
| 17:14:34 | <davean> | V3 is based off MD5ing the data |
| 17:14:41 | <davean> | V5 is based off SHAing the data |
| 17:14:49 | <geekosaur> | actually they claimed not to want the dashes earlier |
| 17:14:53 | <davean> | V4 is all but the tagging bits random. |
| 17:14:55 | <cr0ssw1nd> | probably I should just hardcode UUIDs then |
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| 17:15:03 | <cr0ssw1nd> | it's just a migration lol |
| 17:15:06 | <davean> | cr0ssw1nd: why not generate them with the V5? |
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| 17:15:22 | <davean> | generateNamed :: UUID -> [Word8] -> UUID |
| 17:15:34 | <cr0ssw1nd> | I have `randomId` method already |
| 17:15:35 | <davean> | you generate a UUID as your namespace, you serialize the data into it, and you get a UUID |
| 17:16:18 | <davean> | If you just want random ones, go V4 |
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| 17:16:41 | <davean> | nextRandom :: IO UUID |
| 17:17:54 | <cr0ssw1nd> | https://github.com/wireapp/wire-server/blob/develop/libs/types-common/src/Data/Id.hs#L168 |
| 17:18:13 | <cr0ssw1nd> | the thing is that I use the same collection of usernames in 2 binaries |
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| 17:18:19 | <cr0ssw1nd> | so different UUIDs are generated |
| 17:18:23 | <davean> | Thats what V5 is for |
| 17:18:40 | <davean> | V3 and V5 generate consistent UUIDs for a given piece of data. |
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| 17:19:05 | <cr0ssw1nd> | but I don't want to generate UUID and then convert it to their (Id a) |
| 17:19:15 | <cr0ssw1nd> | they already have FromByteString |
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| 17:19:40 | <cr0ssw1nd> | I think it becomes just impragmatic |
| 17:19:52 | <davean> | ? |
| 17:19:53 | <cr0ssw1nd> | for migration |
| 17:19:58 | <cr0ssw1nd> | it is just test data |
| 17:20:11 | <cr0ssw1nd> | I will hardcode it |
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| 17:20:25 | <davean> | Also why did you write your own UUID deserializer? |
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| 17:20:51 | <cr0ssw1nd> | I didn't, I wanted to convert user names into hashes and then to UUID |
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| 17:21:05 | <cr0ssw1nd> | but yeah |
| 17:21:06 | <davean> | FromByteString (Id a) |
| 17:21:09 | <davean> | That code |
| 17:21:10 | <cr0ssw1nd> | I forgot about structure of UUID |
| 17:21:16 | <cr0ssw1nd> | it's not my code |
| 17:21:19 | <davean> | Ah |
| 17:21:21 | <cr0ssw1nd> | I am working on fork of it |
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| 17:21:54 | <davean> | Thats already in uuid and such |
| 17:22:05 | <cr0ssw1nd> | just hashing would be a bit better, would automatically scale if I create more test data |
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| 17:22:49 | <cr0ssw1nd> | davean, it looks for me there is a lot of stuff written from scratch :) |
| 17:23:00 | <davean> | cr0ssw1nd: yah, very confusing to me |
| 17:24:20 | <davean> | I'd say the 'uuid'/'uuid-types' deserializers of them are much better. |
| 17:24:42 | <davean> | well at least faster. |
| 17:24:47 | <davean> | and equally as correct |
| 17:25:28 | hackage | futhask 0.1.0 - Generate Haskell wrappers for Futhark libraries https://hackage.haskell.org/package/futhask-0.1.0 (GustenIsfeldt) |
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| 17:48:27 | <AWizzArd> | I started a Snap server via `quickHttpServe` and see logs appearing that say: Can't open log file "log/error.log". Exception: log/error.log: openFile: does not exist (No such file or directory) |
| 17:48:45 | <AWizzArd> | Those messages appear in my ghci session. |
| 17:49:07 | <AWizzArd> | What does this mean? Does Snap expect that those files already exist when starting the server? |
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| 17:49:36 | <AWizzArd> | Can I let Snap know that I am happy with it logging to Stdout (because AWS CloudWatch will grab everything there and save it away nicely for me)? |
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| 17:49:41 | <geekosaur> | Id start by making sure the log directory exists |
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| 17:50:21 | <AWizzArd> | geekosaur: good, that removed the message. There was indeed no log/ folder yet. |
| 17:50:41 | <AWizzArd> | geekosaur: I still would love to convince Snap to log everything to Stdout instead. |
| 17:50:48 | <geekosaur> | as fr th other, almost certainly possible but I don't know snap |
| 17:50:59 | <AWizzArd> | Okies, I will find that out later :) |
| 17:51:18 | <geekosaur> | and it might not be part of quickHttpServe but some more involved interface |
| 17:52:09 | <AWizzArd> | Yes, I see it’s using FastLogger, which I happen to know from another project. I’ll see how I can configure that guy. |
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| 18:25:11 | <AWizzArd> | In Snap a Config is a Monoid. It exports `setXYZ val Config` to change certain aspects of the defaultConfig. I want to change two settings. Is there a "trick" to do this in a more clever way? let conf = setX myX (setY myY defaultConfig) |
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| 18:26:34 | <AWizzArd> | If I want to add Z and also A, B and C then this nesting will get pretty deep. |
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| 18:29:10 | <AWizzArd> | I thought about something like bind defaultConfig >*> setX myX >*> setY myY ... |
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| 18:41:23 | <maralorn> | AWizzArd: Is it a Monoid in the sense of the type class? |
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| 18:42:42 | <AWizzArd> | maralorn: yes |
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| 18:42:59 | <maralorn> | AWizzArd: Then you want either fold [defaultConfig, setX myX, setY myY] or defaultConfig <> setXmyX <> setY myY. |
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| 18:44:50 | <AWizzArd> | maralorn: I thought exactly about that second variant, with (<>). |
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| 18:46:47 | <AWizzArd> | maralorn: I just didn’t see that the "second parameter" would be filled in via <>. |
| 18:47:26 | <AWizzArd> | (<>) :: Semigroup a => a -> a -> a |
| 18:47:44 | <AWizzArd> | The defaultConfig :: Config so a = Config |
| 18:48:20 | <AWizzArd> | Now setX :: X -> Config -> Config |
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| 18:48:47 | <AWizzArd> | So I thought that setX X would have the type Config -> Config |
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| 18:49:27 | <maralorn> | Ah, yeah. It does.^^ |
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| 18:49:54 | <AWizzArd> | It is extremly close to what I want, which is "bind for monoids". |
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| 18:53:05 | <maralorn> | AWizzard: The question is this. What exactly does setX do? Can't you just do defaultConfig <> myX |
| 18:53:19 | <maralorn> | Ah, okay |
| 18:53:30 | <maralorn> | I see that's probably a dumb question. |
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| 18:54:58 | <maralorn> | But of course what you really want there is function composition. So setX myX $ setY myY $ defaultConfig would just work fine. Although that is boring because it doesn‘t use the Monoid instance. |
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| 18:56:18 | <AWizzArd> | maralorn: also a very good idea, I was just wondering if I could indeed gain anything from it being a Semigroup/Monoid. |
| 18:58:11 | <maralorn> | AWizzArd: You can do it: defaultConfig <> foldMap (\f -> f emptyConfig) [setX myX, setY myY] |
| 18:58:15 | <maralorn> | But not sure if that's worth it.^^ |
| 18:58:24 | <AWizzArd> | Hehe yes :) |
| 18:58:38 | <AWizzArd> | In the end it must be doable by folding. |
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| 18:59:09 | <maralorn> | Of course, but that would again not use the Monoid instance |
| 19:00:03 | <maralorn> | foldr ($) defaultConfig [setX myX, setY myY] |
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| 19:00:55 | <AWizzArd> | exactly |
| 19:00:59 | <maralorn> | And so I can spend an evening on all possible rewrites of a single line of Haskell. |
| 19:01:20 | <AWizzArd> | Well, for now I will just live with the nested settings. |
| 19:01:25 | <AWizzArd> | maralorn: but it was fun :) |
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| 19:55:58 | hackage | pantry 0.5.1.3 - Content addressable Haskell package management https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pantry-0.5.1.3 (MichaelSnoyman) |
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| 20:20:57 | hackage | lio 0.11.7.1 - Labeled IO Information Flow Control Library https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lio-0.11.7.1 (DeianStefan) |
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| 20:58:27 | hackage | rng-utils 0.3.1 - RNG within an IORef for convenient concurrent use https://hackage.haskell.org/package/rng-utils-0.3.1 (MichaelXavier) |
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| 21:18:53 | <monochrom> | Suppose I have an ADT "data T = C1 | C2 Int | C3 Char Double". Do you say: There are 3 variants? 3 cases? 3 summands? Or any wording I haven't named but you already use. |
| 21:19:34 | <monochrom> | I understand that it can be "3 constructors", but for a technical reason I want to avoid that until the last resort. |
| 21:19:55 | <dolio> | I'd say cases if not constructors, probably. |
| 21:20:22 | <dolio> | Although normally I'd probably only say that if talking about matching. |
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| 21:22:05 | <dolio> | You could say 'tags' too, maybe. 'Summand' (or similar words) is probably the worst. |
| 21:22:51 | <monochrom> | Heh. |
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| 21:23:27 | <MarcelineVQ> | monochrom: I'd be more likely to say cases but 'choices' is an option too |
| 21:23:42 | <MarcelineVQ> | options, etc |
| 21:23:58 | <monochrom> | I included "summand" as a candidate because the whole sentence goes like "the sum structure, if there are 2 or more summands, is represented by the :+: type" |
| 21:23:59 | <MarcelineVQ> | Depends on the sentences preceding the use of the word |
| 21:24:32 | <monochrom> | (For the larger context, I'm writing a tutorial or study notes for GHC.Generics!) |
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| 21:27:44 | <MarcelineVQ> | "a value of T can take 3 distinct forms" is something I'd be likely to say too, especially if I didn't want to look up the word summand |
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| 21:34:54 | <hekkaidekapus> | monochrom: In “Software Foundations”, `Inductive day : Type := | monday : day | tuesday : day`, monday, tuesday, etc are called members of `day`. |
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| 21:44:28 | <phadej> | but they are nullary constructors |
| 21:44:31 | <phadej> | so member makes sense |
| 21:45:17 | <phadej> | but in "data Nat = Z | S Nat", Z is member of Nat, but S isn't, when n is member of Nat, then `S n` (applied!) is member of Nat |
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| 21:46:07 | <phadej> | i.e. I think "is member of" is another way to say "is value of type" |
| 21:46:16 | <EvanR> | in everyday language you imagine something can be members of more than one club at the same time, but types don't allow that |
| 21:46:22 | <hekkaidekapus> | The “member” naming lasts for a one paragraph, then “constructor” takes over. |
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| 21:46:38 | <EvanR> | unless it's one of those off the wall subtyping theories |
| 21:46:44 | <phadej> | EvanR: yeah, member has very set-theoretical ring to it :) |
| 21:46:55 | <phadej> | one thing can be member of many sets |
| 21:47:46 | <EvanR> | think of types as sets, until you don't |
| 21:47:50 | <dolio> | Not all set theories allow elements to be in more than one set. |
| 21:48:16 | <EvanR> | true, ETCS |
| 21:48:19 | <monochrom> | Everyday language also uses very-flexible subtyping, union typing, intersection typing, and stereotyping. :) |
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| 21:48:43 | <dolio> | They can only be in multiple subsets of a given set, but subsets and sets might not be the same thing. |
| 21:48:49 | <EvanR> | when will GHC support stereotyping? |
| 21:49:19 | <phadej> | I'd say that "constructor" is the word to use |
| 21:49:28 | <phadej> | but if one cannot, than it is ones' problem |
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| 21:49:52 | <EvanR> | when in rome |
| 21:50:32 | <monochrom> | The singletons library (and its design pattern) is based on stereo typing. >:) |
| 21:50:48 | <dolio> | monochrom: nlab says they're called coprojections. |
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| 21:52:13 | <monochrom> | For example, you have both "Nat(Z, S)" and "SingNat(SingZ, SingS)" at the same level, and they are in bijection. That's a majectic stereo pair of the same type --- stereo typing. >:) |
| 21:53:24 | <monochrom> | Haha wish me luck if I write a GHC.Generics tutorial and keep saying "coprojections" instead of "data constructors". |
| 21:53:36 | <glguy> | We need some distingushed base types so we can get 2.1 stereo types... |
| 21:53:43 | <monochrom> | or even "injections" |
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| 21:53:49 | <dolio> | It says you're also allowed to call them injections or inclusions. |
| 21:53:59 | <dolio> | Injection could be misleading, though. |
| 21:54:37 | <EvanR> | if constructors are functions, then they are surely inject. ... right |
| 21:54:44 | <EvanR> | injective |
| 21:55:02 | <monochrom> | Nat(Z, S) is also lifted by DataKinds, that's your subwoofer. Also it's "higher" not "lower", so I guess tweezer? |
| 21:55:14 | <dolio> | Constructors of existential types aren't injective necessarily. |
| 21:55:31 | <EvanR> | how so |
| 21:55:52 | <EvanR> | monochrom you mean tweeter? |
| 21:56:13 | <dolio> | Well, `data E where MkE :: a -> E` only has one value, according to parametricity. |
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| 21:56:29 | <dolio> | So it can't be injective. |
| 21:56:41 | <EvanR> | 'the count according to parametricity' always tripped me up |
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| 21:57:58 | <EvanR> | if you specialize E so a is Bool, MkE True = MkE False ? |
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| 21:58:08 | <dolio> | Yes. |
| 21:58:12 | <phadej> | no |
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| 21:58:18 | <EvanR> | round 1 fight |
| 21:58:19 | <monochrom> | Yeah tweeters. |
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| 21:58:42 | <phadej> | Haskell just doesnt' allow us to extract types of existentials (sigma types) |
| 21:58:48 | <int-e> | monochrom: Not "twits"? |
| 21:58:54 | <phadej> | but Sigma Bool True /= Sigma Bool False |
| 21:58:54 | <dolio> | That's why they're the same. |
| 21:59:00 | <dolio> | Existential types aren't sigma types. |
| 21:59:05 | <EvanR> | "the same" ... |
| 21:59:20 | <monochrom> | A loudspeaker specialized for high pitches. |
| 21:59:34 | <EvanR> | i think this is where the convo sinks below the surface of the sand trap |
| 21:59:46 | <monochrom> | The opposite of subwoofer (loudspeaker specialized for low bass). |
| 21:59:47 | <int-e> | Oh. |
| 22:00:02 | <phadej> | ok sorry, indeed existential is `Sigma Type id` |
| 22:00:14 | <ixlun> | Hi all, I'm trying to bootstrap cabal-install and I'm getting this error: http://ix.io/2yyb |
| 22:00:23 | <ixlun> | Just wondered if anyone has any ideas? |
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| 22:01:17 | <monochrom> | Are you sure you must bootstrap cabal-install? |
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| 22:01:35 | <parsnip> | lazy question: Couldn't match type ‘JsonResponse a0’ with ‘Value’ |
| 22:02:03 | <parsnip> | expected Req Value, actual Req (JsonResponse a0) |
| 22:02:05 | <monochrom> | ghc-9.1 release candidate?! |
| 22:02:06 | <dolio> | They are extensionally equal. |
| 22:02:09 | <EvanR> | you basically claimed that the existential above effectively loses information |
| 22:02:24 | <dolio> | Yes, hiding information is the purpose of existential types. |
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| 22:02:32 | <EvanR> | but if you add another method to recover hidden info from an extistentially typed value, how could it be lost |
| 22:02:37 | <ixlun> | monochrom: Yep, I don |
| 22:02:56 | <ixlun> | don't have any haskell packages on this system |
| 22:02:59 | <EvanR> | i think we need stephen hawking for this one |
| 22:03:13 | <ixlun> | so I've built GHC and I'm trying to build cabal to get up and running |
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| 22:04:22 | <phadej> | https://gist.github.com/phadej/828a8e8daf3ec4d90f694f5bafa79356 <- existentials as sigma types |
| 22:04:30 | <phadej> | and in agda you can tell them appart easilty |
| 22:04:38 | <phadej> | so MkE True /= MkE False |
| 22:04:40 | <dolio> | Haskell isn't Agda. |
| 22:04:48 | <monochrom> | I don't know whether this is an incompatibility betweeh GHC 9.1.0-RC and cabal-install-3.2, or it is a deeper problem. |
| 22:04:52 | <phadej> | dolio: soon it will be |
| 22:05:01 | <EvanR> | in Haskell you could include a way of recovering hidden info as part of your API |
| 22:05:09 | <int-e> | ixlun: "hecking installed packages for ghc-9.1.0.20200923"... probably not a good idea to use an unrelease ghc, but if you do you probably need a development version of Cabal/cabal-install as well. |
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| 22:06:16 | <parsnip> | would you recommend http-client or req library? |
| 22:06:19 | <phadej> | dolio: have you better argumented explanation how Haskell's existential types are different from that Agda encoding. sans that just hasn't internal power to reason about them |
| 22:06:21 | <monochrom> | I am also skeptical about the inference "no haskell package, therefore must build from source", but I guess I don't know your system. |
| 22:06:25 | <int-e> | ixlun: if you built ghc from source (as you said) you can look under libraries/Cabal for sources of those |
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| 22:07:12 | <ixlun> | Yeah, that's what confuses me, GHC's version of cabal was fine |
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| 22:07:23 | <ixlun> | As you say, I probably need a dev version of cabal-install. |
| 22:07:37 | <monochrom> | Must you use 9.1? |
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| 22:08:22 | <int-e> | ixlun: But it's saner to just use ghc-8.10.2 for now. |
| 22:08:33 | <EvanR> | extensional equality is apparently relative to a world of things you're allowed to try and check for a difference |
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| 22:09:03 | <monochrom> | Eqaulity itself already is. |
| 22:10:03 | <EvanR> | extensional equality being a subequality of "equality itself" ... xD |
| 22:10:14 | <monochrom> | Leibniz law "if x equals y then for all f, f x equals f y". The devil of the detail is what kind of f's you are allowed. |
| 22:10:31 | <EvanR> | ok, leibniz equality |
| 22:11:07 | <glguy> | reasoning starts to get hard when you admit things because they are true in other languages, or when you pull aside the runtime-abstractions the language attempts to provide and look into the RTS |
| 22:11:14 | <monochrom> | "I have not observed any unobservable inequality." http://www.vex.net/~trebla/humour/tautologies.html #9 :) |
| 22:11:45 | <EvanR> | nothing unreal exists |
| 22:12:15 | <ixlun> | int-e: I'd prefer that, but I can't get an aarch64 version of ghc-8.10.2 built |
| 22:12:25 | <ixlun> | there must have been a fix post then for aarch64 |
| 22:12:36 | <monochrom> | In a nutshell, Leibniz equality is a way to say that inequality has to be observable inequality, you must have an f that tells the difference. |
| 22:12:55 | <monochrom> | Think of f as an accessor. |
| 22:13:04 | <EvanR> | doesn't that make it a negatively defined notion |
| 22:13:13 | <phadej> | glguy: with dataToTag# I can differ `Exists True` and `Exists False` quite easily |
| 22:13:25 | <EvanR> | equality = no method here to see any difference |
| 22:13:26 | <phadej> | and I wouldn't even feel dirty |
| 22:13:53 | <glguy> | phadej: then you're just not reasoning at the level of the language, you're doing something else |
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| 22:15:47 | <EvanR> | nvm |
| 22:15:50 | <phadej> | yes, I can agree that we (I and dolio) disagree on the "what means equal". I look at those from outside, and they are different to me. It's true that without using any tricks, data Exists where Exists :: a -> Exists is essentially a () |
| 22:16:08 | <phadej> | ... from inside Haskell |
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| 22:16:58 | <EvanR> | no way to tell a difference from inside haskell, because the example included no way to. Though it could have |
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| 22:17:20 | <glguy> | EvanR: No point in finding differences in the things we aren't looking at |
| 22:17:22 | <EvanR> | then you'd have an example of an existential that lost less info |
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| 22:19:34 | <EvanR> | anyway, if you can't tell anyway, does that really mean injectivity is violated? |
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| 22:20:40 | <EvanR> | like is there an observable violation |
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| 22:21:43 | <monochrom> | This is why people have disagreements over what referential transparency means. Because they have disagreements over equality in the first place. |
| 22:21:47 | <dolio> | EvanR: Injectivity says `Exists False = Exists True -> False = True`. |
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| 22:23:16 | <phadej> | I don't see how `Exists False = Exists True`, is there non handwavy reference on this difference to "more powerful type-systems" |
| 22:23:19 | <monochrom> | However, I am more reminded of unbelievable compression schemes such as "send it to /dev/null" if you don't expect to recover the information you sent. |
| 22:24:07 | <monochrom> | Also the Chinese idiom "a safe, the key of which is lost". |
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| 22:24:52 | <monochrom> | That aptly describes the unrecoverable existential type. |
| 22:25:02 | <dolio> | I think Bob Harper has written about ML modules, abstract types, existential types, and how dependent sigma types are inadequate to correctly model abstract types. |
| 22:25:09 | <monochrom> | You save some information in it. Then you can't retrieve it. |
| 22:25:10 | <EvanR> | yeah it's mathemtically not injective but how would it manifest as a bug |
| 22:25:29 | <dolio> | It is not "more powerful" to be unable to correctly abstract. |
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| 22:26:23 | <phadej> | if we promote, they are not the same: https://gist.github.com/phadej/539de5929c6acad3b8e2fa60fbf68f14 |
| 22:26:25 | <dolio> | Also your position on existential types makes all the equational reasoning people do based on parametricity invalid for Haskell. |
| 22:26:54 | <phadej> | how so? |
| 22:27:26 | <dolio> | Or, for whatever you want to call not even thinking about the abstractions Haskell is supposed to have, just the underlying implementation of them on particular computers. |
| 22:27:47 | <monochrom> | Hrm, you can promote a GADT?! TIL |
| 22:28:12 | <phadej> | monochrom: somewhere in GHC-8 series we got that |
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| 22:28:21 | <monochrom> | Ah. |
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| 22:29:11 | <phadej> | comparing `MkExists True` and `MkExists False` is not the same as trying to say something about to arbitrary `x :: Exists` and `y :: Exists` |
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| 22:30:07 | <EvanR> | whatever you concluded about arbitrary Exists ought to apply to these examples or |
| 22:30:17 | <EvanR> | somethings up |
| 22:32:28 | <monochrom> | I guess parametricity doesn't apply to the type-kind level? |
| 22:32:29 | <EvanR> | also since i was asking about constructors it's not necessary to consider arbitrary Exists |
| 22:33:16 | <EvanR> | really? what about polykinds |
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| 22:33:55 | <phadej> | forall a. a -> a still has only one non-bottom inhabitant |
| 22:33:59 | <phadej> | nothing what I said violate that |
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| 22:35:22 | <phadej> | there are work even on internal parametricity in dependent type theories |
| 22:35:39 | <EvanR> | more polymorphic "counting" shenanigans :'( |
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| 22:37:00 | <LestatCapulet> | Wasabi! |
| 22:37:12 | ChanServ | sets mode +o monochrom |
| 22:37:17 | <EvanR> | for any given a there are any number of different functions implementing id. But they are extensionally equal. How do you also "consolidate" all the versions across all types too |
| 22:37:38 | <EvanR> | in what sense are they all the same |
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| 22:38:34 | <dolio> | They're not all the same. I can use some unsound GHC primop to notice they aren't. Q.E.D. |
| 22:38:46 | <EvanR> | not an answer |
| 22:39:00 | <dolio> | It's exactly the answer I was met with above. |
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| 22:39:47 | <phadej> | I argue that you cannot differentiate values of type `forall a. a -> a` |
| 22:39:49 | EvanR | puts on "I'm with dolio" shirt for clarification |
| 22:40:05 | <phadej> | you cannot "fix a" and then try to tell them apart |
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| 22:40:47 | <EvanR> | well, you can't differentiate them. I'm asking how you identify them. Or is that the point? |
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| 22:41:22 | <phadej> | parametricity tells that they are all equal. |
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| 22:41:33 | <EvanR> | equal in what sense |
| 22:41:41 | <phadej> | extensional |
| 22:42:12 | <phadej> | it doesn't mean that internally you can get that result, and do anything with it |
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| 22:43:25 | <EvanR> | ok I think I got it |
| 22:44:19 | <phadej> | none of these equalities are decidable, "given values of type X you can tell whether they are equal or not" |
| 22:44:27 | <phadej> | but in some corner case you may be able |
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| 22:45:59 | <phadej> | e.g. forall a. a -> a -> a, has two values, you can tell if two values are different, but you cannot really tell (without parametricity) that they are the same |
| 22:46:27 | <EvanR> | i was just trying to think of that example. How do you know if they're different? |
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| 22:46:45 | <EvanR> | but looking an example for a particular a ? |
| 22:46:46 | <phadej> | f @Bool True False /= f @Bool True False |
| 22:46:48 | <phadej> | yes |
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| 22:46:58 | <phadej> | err, False True on the other side |
| 22:47:22 | <phadej> | one example is enough to show they are different |
| 22:47:52 | <phadej> | if you happen to find one |
| 22:48:38 | <phadej> | parametricity gives you a hint which examples to try though |
| 22:49:01 | <phadej> | f @Bool True False /= g @Bool True False -- correct one |
| 22:49:07 | <EvanR> | an example is enough to establish a new island in the a -> a -> a universe, i guess, but then you need some sort of universal proof to show the next contestant is extentially equal to one of the two |
| 22:49:20 | <phadej> | yes, that you cannot do |
| 22:49:29 | <phadej> | without using parametricity |
| 22:49:58 | <phadej> | because we cannot try all possible Types |
| 22:49:59 | <LestatCapulet> | Magic Disney Tatertott Power 4TehWin! |
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| 22:50:41 | <LestatCapulet> | Lets play sum Tetris AAmodafackerz! |
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| 22:51:16 | <EvanR> | we cannot do what? |
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| 22:51:32 | × | FMJz____ quits (sid279245@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ndzfispoqyyjbfwv) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
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| 22:51:47 | × | idnar quits (sid12240@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tfsrbtkqrzazovfm) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 22:51:47 | × | lexi-lambda quits (sid92601@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kqlffaskqxngpytz) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 22:51:47 | × | kyagrd__ quits (sid102627@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bpqznclhpkuhhkvr) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
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| 22:51:48 | × | wildsebastian quits (sid324688@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zxluugkcnddqzgnu) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 22:51:48 | × | benl23 quits (sid284234@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qybbmdkhuhxfnbnc) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 22:51:48 | × | adamse quits (sid72084@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cectujjnvjvetnmu) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 22:51:48 | × | kristjansson quits (sid126207@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cwnvwggjpyoyfbug) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 22:51:48 | × | edwardk quits (sid47016@haskell/developer/edwardk) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 22:52:07 | × | howdoi quits (uid224@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-avwcxcbfgjgwkevh) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 22:52:09 | → | enemeth79 joins (sid309041@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ztkkujlriirbyczm) |
| 22:52:19 | <EvanR> | (seems to be a netsplit) phadej: we cannot do what exactly? |
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| 22:52:21 | × | Nascha quits (sid212230@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mayrideklcmxzbwe) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
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| 22:52:21 | × | affinespaces quits (sid327561@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-surtytzgkagqbptw) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 22:52:21 | × | gluegadget quits (sid22336@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tmiumiesupahnofb) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 22:52:21 | martin_____ | is now known as martin____ |
| 22:52:25 | × | graingert quits (sid128301@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jrquxxvowvtgeikn) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 22:52:35 | → | typetetris joins (sid275937@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cpqzcabctkypxzuf) |
| 22:52:37 | → | kristjansson joins (sid126207@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gnpvtzvuodufjtmg) |
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| 22:52:40 | → | d0liver joins (sid363046@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mobhkddospuvumcg) |
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| 22:52:40 | → | lally joins (sid388228@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ttpmvetxyxqhrgnc) |
| 22:52:40 | → | totbwf joins (sid402332@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eulltanhbubrhuoe) |
| 22:52:42 | → | edwardk joins (sid47016@haskell/developer/edwardk) |
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| 22:52:42 | → | jetpack_joe joins (sid146137@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zepsxlqcwpmeoiye) |
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| 22:52:43 | → | lightandlight joins (sid135476@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nimetgbujjzfnoxs) |
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| 22:52:44 | → | mpickering joins (sid78412@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tenczaeanycawpas) |
| 22:52:45 | → | davetapley joins (sid666@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-issjvdpiznczxsoo) |
| 22:52:46 | → | adius joins (sid321344@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cdslkdkulmqfrsas) |
| 22:52:46 | → | darthThorik joins (sid39589@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eimsyucdiebkhuma) |
| 22:52:47 | → | metadave joins (sid28102@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qpnnitlhecwrrsgq) |
| 22:52:47 | → | Shun131 joins (sid377723@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xzwejgdnirknkdyy) |
| 22:52:50 | → | martin___ joins (uid411878@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-erkznfebkxmjtljg) |
| 22:52:51 | → | bitonic joins (sid61915@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-indhjgkukoetiqtf) |
| 22:52:52 | → | Adeon joins (sid418992@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cvwbjodfepluylyi) |
| 22:52:54 | <glguy> | "netsplit" / irccloud instability |
| 22:52:54 | → | betawaffle joins (sid2730@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vjxfsafadmlzfybj) |
| 22:52:55 | → | liszt joins (sid336875@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uteuxgmqmrjwpffv) |
| 22:52:55 | → | buggymcbugfix joins (sid432603@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-segxurmailgbipxk) |
| 22:52:55 | → | edmundnoble joins (sid229620@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xckfdnnctkwioehd) |
| 22:52:58 | → | glowcoil joins (sid3405@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vxenmydbtxdrjhcw) |
| 22:52:59 | × | irc_user quits (uid423822@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zcagtoolpvznahhu) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 22:52:59 | × | pepeiborra quits (sid443799@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bikhixmhqqkozscp) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 22:52:59 | pepeiborra_ | is now known as pepeiborra |
| 22:53:06 | → | angerman joins (sid209936@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fjowxznciagzmqyd) |
| 22:53:07 | × | JSharp quits (sid4580@wikia/JSharp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 22:53:14 | → | kupi joins (uid212005@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fmjxijjconjdwmfh) |
| 22:53:15 | <Clint> | reboot the internet |
| 22:53:21 | → | gregberns_ joins (sid315709@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pxdaqtbgiynqrhqa) |
| 22:53:25 | × | entel quits (uid256215@botters/entel) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 22:53:31 | → | hazard-pointer joins (sid331723@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uyiwpjjxikwikqxq) |
| 22:53:33 | × | thi quits (sid97277@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wriovfhjtmcdbcjt) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 22:53:34 | → | agander_m joins (sid407952@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jwoqulslpyqlylbi) |
| 22:53:43 | × | srhb quits (sid400352@NixOS/user/srhb) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 22:53:52 | → | alehander92 joins (sid331460@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-idkdgfbsseuoqnwz) |
| 22:53:53 | → | heyj joins (sid171370@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kdaknvkrpgxotygi) |
| 22:53:55 | → | koankeeper joins (sid216950@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kuumlbepnnvmulch) |
| 22:53:55 | <EvanR> | I thought it was irccloud.com then i saw edwardk ping timeout too |
| 22:53:56 | → | eacameron joins (sid256985@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hqavlegecgsakqev) |
| 22:53:57 | → | scav joins (sid309693@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sroyhqfgixitzetl) |
| 22:53:58 | → | integral joins (sid296274@p3m/member/integral) |
| 22:54:00 | → | Cir0X joins (sid221743@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ghtetmherfetfvlm) |
| 22:54:00 | → | cvlad- joins (sid203065@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fewqvluttyvfpqrl) |
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| 22:54:05 | → | wildsebastian joins (sid324688@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-noxobrzcxmeunedz) |
| 22:54:08 | → | alanz_ joins (sid110616@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oljjdoyrlaarrctj) |
| 22:54:14 | → | idnar joins (sid12240@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wekokikpeshbhqyj) |
| 22:54:19 | → | billstclair joins (sid77830@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hfktjwoadztbgrwu) |
| 22:54:20 | → | alexknvl joins (sid259568@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gxewnkgtcktglgdk) |
| 22:54:21 | → | Nascha joins (sid212230@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-veqfssgsdgrwspqx) |
| 22:54:22 | → | teehemkay joins (sid14792@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aqijularyrnvcadd) |
| 22:54:24 | → | rdivyanshu joins (sid322626@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rlikewfaiqjbobsd) |
| 22:54:25 | → | benl23 joins (sid284234@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ymhnarrzfbwgukrc) |
| 22:54:26 | → | bradparker joins (sid262931@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mofanjllsexcdrco) |
| 22:54:27 | → | cbarrett joins (sid192934@adium/cbarrett) |
| 22:54:27 | → | natim87 joins (sid286962@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-owkkkawkmfdtpxis) |
| 22:54:29 | → | stylewarning joins (stylewarni@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uvpnoawijpdmmxja) |
| 22:54:30 | → | iphy joins (sid67735@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kldcelvhnttznwir) |
| 22:54:31 | <glguy> | EvanR: what did you conclude from seeing that? |
| 22:54:32 | → | liquorice joins (sid267884@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ubxyjvrpmxhwnqkq) |
| 22:54:33 | → | kip joins (sid71464@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rmonmsxkcjhjcgqe) |
| 22:54:34 | → | affinespaces joins (sid327561@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kvltnsabbhcplluv) |
| 22:54:34 | → | mcfilib joins (sid302703@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ayrowhifopnqemcf) |
| 22:54:35 | → | srhb joins (sid400352@NixOS/user/srhb) |
| 22:54:35 | → | thi joins (sid97277@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-skwjfzenuehplhxv) |
| 22:54:36 | → | sethetter__ joins (sid17895@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gjrsztjbkfnqxzcl) |
| 22:54:38 | → | bjs joins (sid190364@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sffmijuqwritxret) |
| 22:54:38 | → | carter joins (sid14827@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iroznbxhtklfnfzx) |
| 22:54:38 | → | albethere joins (sid457088@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-egacnjjdaxtejyln) |
| 22:54:41 | → | simony joins (sid226116@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vcsdewznrdwwgnis) |
| 22:54:43 | → | Kamuela joins (sid111576@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ffwzngkqaohtkylu) |
| 22:54:44 | → | howdoi joins (uid224@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-svpcvlpkamjtfitp) |
| 22:54:45 | → | joshmeredith joins (sid387798@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tocpehdjhiusuwgk) |
| 22:54:45 | → | SrPx joins (sid108780@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wjejjdsspacspndl) |
| 22:54:48 | → | jlpeters joins (sid25606@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-twwkkqhyyggfdivq) |
| 22:54:50 | → | sclv joins (sid39734@haskell/developer/sclv) |
| 22:54:53 | → | feepo joins (sid28508@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yvdfjmicbugqxtqj) |
| 22:54:58 | → | irc_user joins (uid423822@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-awewgjdwbaknrfwe) |
| 22:54:58 | → | FMJz____ joins (sid279245@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xxlxmdepyepdjiiz) |
| 22:54:59 | → | chessai joins (sid225296@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zzehzebrnlswozjp) |
| 22:55:01 | → | ullbeking joins (sid5364@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nuizesoknxmuomew) |
| 22:55:02 | <monochrom> | Perhaps edwardk is on irccloud.com too. |
| 22:55:03 | → | chpatrick joins (sid239395@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hgwhhvpaceqfpsfd) |
| 22:55:03 | <EvanR> | there's a conspiracy from irccloud to take down edk's client |
| 22:55:04 | → | ebutleriv joins (sid217783@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xojalosetjeggitu) |
| 22:55:04 | → | ProofTechnique joins (sid79547@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tponbxdqtfpxmwel) |
| 22:55:05 | → | kyagrd__ joins (sid102627@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cczxifxwkgykmgul) |
| 22:55:05 | → | mankyKitty joins (sid31287@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-stbsqcajexfluxuf) |
| 22:55:06 | → | cstrahan joins (sid36118@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qpyatyyfmsjoedfl) |
| 22:55:08 | → | dgpratt joins (sid193493@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jfcngfvjfuasdztv) |
| 22:55:09 | <EvanR> | or that |
| 22:55:11 | → | caasih joins (sid13241@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-inrpoiaisxjinedq) |
| 22:55:12 | → | ghuntley joins (sid16877@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-luqtfrbjedshlyyp) |
| 22:55:17 | → | PatrickRobotham_ joins (sid18270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vnvdpghrecuvxqhe) |
| 22:55:17 | → | newhoggy joins (sid198874@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kjtefuttsgcyxcav) |
| 22:55:18 | → | elvishjerricco joins (sid237756@NixOS/user/ElvishJerricco) |
| 22:55:18 | → | grfn joins (sid449115@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rvpditypzabzksng) |
| 22:55:18 | × | xyggos quits (uid216035@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wmxaxxurlecshsab) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 22:55:19 | → | amatecha__ joins (sid10006@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rbrqcxiojnxeeyta) |
| 22:55:20 | → | eruditass joins (uid248673@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eolintwxiwbmuxmq) |
| 22:55:22 | → | entel joins (uid256215@botters/entel) |
| 22:55:23 | <monochrom> | I support conspiracy theories. |
| 22:55:25 | → | alunduil joins (alunduil@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vymgafgkgglqgroh) |
| 22:55:29 | <EvanR> | but he's the only one with a mask? crazy |
| 22:55:32 | → | adamse joins (sid72084@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ibjuwillctxzxezq) |
| 22:55:36 | → | sgraf joins (sid326656@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bqdvppnreegksoze) |
| 22:55:52 | → | drbrule joins (sid395654@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ogdudpwfmbcjqaew) |
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| 22:56:00 | <glguy> | gateway cloaks (like irccloud users have) override unaffiliated cloaks |
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| 22:56:43 | <dolio> | If you want to understand part of why sigma and exists don't line up, you can actually read some of the work on parametricity in dependent type theories. Like Cavallo and Harper on parametricity in cubical type theory. There they point out that 'bridges' (relations, on which parametricity is based) and 'paths' (on which 'equality' is based) disagree for the universe. And the path type for a Σ type corresponds to paths for its components. So a path f |
| 22:56:44 | <dolio> | or a (Σ U) type is going to be talking about *paths* between types, rather than relations between types. However, the point of a parametric existential type is for values to be equal based on a relational criterion. |
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| 22:59:36 | <jamestmartin> | is it possible to export a function which uses an instance of a typeclass without exporting the instance itself? |
| 23:00:30 | <jamestmartin> | while also exporting the typeclass, just not the instance |
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| 23:01:51 | <EvanR> | well that helps, parametricity is based on relations |
| 23:02:11 | <EvanR> | is there a readable paper on that |
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| 23:02:36 | <glguy> | jamestmartin: No, you can't avoid exporting an instance |
| 23:02:48 | <jamestmartin> | alright then |
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| 23:02:59 | <dolio> | Wadler's Theorems for Free, maybe. I forget. |
| 23:03:16 | <jamestmartin> | well, with linear types coming soon, that won't be necessary anyhow |
| 23:03:21 | <jamestmartin> | I was just curious |
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| 23:06:05 | <jamestmartin> | man, I'm hyped for linear types though. that's gonna be useful in so many ways. |
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| 23:08:27 | <EvanR> | linear types coming soon? |
| 23:09:20 | <jamestmartin> | linear types are going to be in ghc 8.12 from what I've heard |
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| 23:10:07 | <EvanR> | damn that's sexy |
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| 23:13:13 | <MarcelineVQ> | linear types should be pretty useful, they're the perfect way to shift people from complaining about IO being infections to complain about linearity being infectious |
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| 23:14:56 | <int-e> | . o O ( Can we make it so that only one person can complain at a time? ) |
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| 23:16:04 | <MarcelineVQ> | :D |
| 23:16:28 | hackage | bytestring 0.11.0.0 - Fast, compact, strict and lazy byte strings with a list interface https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bytestring-0.11.0.0 (Bodigrim) |
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| 23:16:54 | <MarcelineVQ> | If a complain is registered we promise it will be looked at exactly once. |
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| 23:27:52 | <hpc> | in rust, you promise it will be looked at, at most once :D |
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| 23:28:49 | <MarcelineVQ> | the trick is just not to look, or if you look, put it back when you're done |
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| 23:32:17 | <LestatC95> | Chaos theory reigns Supreme....Lysanders in! |
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| 23:34:15 | MarcelineVQ | drips drinking water on a paleobotanist's hand in a pervy way during a jostling cross-country car trip |
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| 23:51:15 | <koz_> | I'm getting some DerivingStrategies weirdness: https://gist.github.com/kozross/e8dbf3587ec59738e3e3cd06067cdd28 |
| 23:51:35 | <koz_> | I kinda get why this is happening, but I am unsure how to resolve it. |
| 23:51:55 | <glguy> | koz_: I got to here: https://gist.github.com/kozross/e8dbf3587ec59738e3e3cd06067cdd28#file-ll1-hs-L15-L18 ; the applicative instance doesn't satisfy the laws |
| 23:52:23 | <koz_> | Yep, that's a good catch. |
| 23:52:35 | <koz_> | This is what happens when you try and transpose academic papers rofl. |
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| 23:54:01 | <koz_> | glguy: Updated, nice catch. |
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| 23:55:26 | <koz_> | DerivingVia still explodes with the same error. |
| 23:55:45 | <koz_> | How would I go about remedying this? In theory, (Alt f, Alt g) => Alt (Product f g) holds. |
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| 23:57:34 | <solonarv> | what happens if you replace line 35 with 'deriving newtype (Alt)' ? |
| 23:57:48 | <koz_> | solonarv: Same error. That was the first thing I tried. |
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All times are in UTC on 2020-09-23.