Logs on 2020-09-24 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 00:05:37 | <int-e> | koz_: coercing Applicative (Product (Empty e t) (First e t)) => to Applicative (EmFirst e t) => can't really work, can it? The former instance can exist without the latter existing... and even if you add an Applicative instance for EmFirst using newtype deriving, the type checker can't really know how it's derived... so it can't really be expected to reuse the representation. |
| 00:06:02 | <koz_> | int-e: Yeah, that's a good point. |
| 00:06:11 | <int-e> | (in light of this, `some` and `many` should really have their own typeclass instead) |
| 00:06:31 | <koz_> | I believe there's a note about refactoring them out once some unspecified issues with MonadPlus are resolved. |
| 00:06:42 | <koz_> | It's a bit of a bummer, but I guess it's not that hard to spell by hand. |
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| 00:09:04 | <int-e> | koz_: oh wow, Data.Functor.Alt is littered with unsafeCoerce... for the same reason. |
| 00:09:10 | <koz_> | int-e: Rofl. |
| 00:09:34 | <koz_> | TIL how Alt sausage gets made. |
| 00:09:51 | <int-e> | (well, "littered" may be an exaggeration... but 4 occurrences is 4 more than I expected.) |
| 00:10:09 | <koz_> | 4 can be a lot. |
| 00:10:22 | <koz_> | When referring to things ranging from 'wedding cakes at one event' to 'unsafeCoerce uses'. |
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| 00:25:01 | <z0> | > let p = [0,1,2] in (,) <$> p <*> p |
| 00:25:06 | <lambdabot> | [(0,0),(0,1),(0,2),(1,0),(1,1),(1,2),(2,0),(2,1),(2,2)] |
| 00:26:15 | <z0> | how would i go about doing this but avoiding "duplicates" considering that (1,0) and (0,1) are duplicates? |
| 00:27:07 | <koz_> | z0: Filter it through a HashSet. |
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| 00:31:00 | <Cale> | > [(x,y) | (x:ys) <- tails [0,1,2], y <- ys] |
| 00:31:03 | <lambdabot> | [(0,1),(0,2),(1,2)] |
| 00:31:17 | <Cale> | > [(x,y) | (x:ys) <- tails [0,1,2], y <- (x:ys)] |
| 00:31:20 | <lambdabot> | [(0,0),(0,1),(0,2),(1,1),(1,2),(2,2)] |
| 00:31:40 | <Cale> | z0: ^^ |
| 00:31:49 | <z0> | thats it! thanks |
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| 00:43:23 | <AWizzArd> | Ambiguous occurrence ‘putStrLn’ for this use: main = putStrLn ("Hallo" :: Text) |
| 00:43:42 | <koz_> | Is there some non-obvious reason why we have (Functor m, Monad m) => Applicative (StateT s m)? |
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| 00:43:48 | <koz_> | Other than hysterical ones? |
| 00:43:56 | <AWizzArd> | I wonder why GHC can’t figure out if String -> IO () should be used or better Text -> IO () |
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| 00:46:22 | <Axman6> | because the only type based dispatch Haskell has is via type classes |
| 00:47:02 | <Axman6> | import qualified Data.Text.IO as TIO |
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| 01:13:15 | <AWizzArd> | Axman6: yes, a qualified import works perfectly, I just thought it could infer the function it needs to use via the :: Text sig. But now with what you said I understand it, thx. |
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| 02:05:08 | <koz_> | Is there an already-existing thing which is equivalent to Identity :+: Env e? |
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| 02:09:37 | <koz_> | Well, I guess that's Env (Maybe e)? |
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| 02:12:05 | <koz_> | > Nothing <> Just "a" |
| 02:12:07 | <lambdabot> | Just "a" |
| 02:12:21 | <koz_> | > Just "a" <> Just "b" |
| 02:12:24 | <lambdabot> | Just "ab" |
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| 02:12:49 | <c_wraith> | that doesn't look right at all |
| 02:12:58 | <Axman6> | Jesus, scala's documentations keeps getting better, insisting on using ⇒ instead of => in the docs for functions when they're arguments ot methods |
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| 02:16:33 | <dolio> | Axman6: Have you found the variable captures in the docs yet? :) |
| 02:17:16 | <ddellacosta> | is Scala any good, for someone who enjoys Haskell? |
| 02:17:45 | <Axman6> | no, not at all, it's a dumpster fire </personalOpinion> |
| 02:17:46 | <dolio> | I don't think programming it like it's Haskell is very enjoyable. |
| 02:18:10 | <Axman6> | I'm shocked by hpw crazy it is every day I try to do anything with it |
| 02:18:16 | <ddellacosta> | thank you both |
| 02:20:30 | <Axman6> | I knew before using it there were things that I wouldn't like about it, but it is just _so_ complex, it's the worst of Java's and Haskell's type systems in one, which seem to fight to remove all the niceties of both |
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| 02:25:03 | <Axman6> | dolio: re your question, I don't know, there's so much that makes no sense to me in the docs. even just little things like "where is the string I need to copy to import this module |
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| 02:25:22 | <dolio> | Heh. |
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| 02:29:27 | <dolio> | Well, I don't know if they've fixed it recently, but it used to be that there were e.g. Maps that are a subtype of Collection, and the latter has one parameter `B`. Map has two, though, `K,A`, and `B = (K,A)`. But some methods are parametric over another `B`, for like `A => B` mapping, say. But then it also mentions the B from collection, and it can be difficult to tell which is referring to which. |
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| 02:30:03 | <dolio> | You can tell because it will say something like `Map[B]` in some of those cases instead of `Map[K,A]`. |
| 02:30:12 | <dolio> | Anyhow, be aware of that. |
| 02:30:48 | <dolio> | Because it's easy to get confused for a while if you're not. |
| 02:30:49 | <Axman6> | :'( |
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| 02:51:55 | <dibblego> | scala is pretty broken |
| 02:52:31 | <Axman6> | Don't oversell it |
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| 02:53:48 | <dibblego> | scala programmers do a great job of that already |
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| 02:56:59 | <arahael> | I tried to learn scala many years ago. The syntax was... Insane. I gave up before I even decided to install the tools, and just learnt haskell instead. |
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| 02:57:37 | <Axman6> | Neo level bullet dodging |
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| 03:04:12 | <arahael> | Yep. My general strategy is to use my overly-inflated sense of personal competence: "If I can't understand it, what chance would most people on the team have?" |
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| 03:19:22 | <edwardk> | arahael: i did it the hard way. actually learned the syntax, tried to use it, then finally stopped apologizing for it and decided 'never again' and moved on. |
| 03:20:04 | <arahael> | :) |
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| 03:59:28 | hackage | lens-core 0.2 - A placeholder for a future lens core package. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-core-0.2 (EdwardKmett) |
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| 04:07:16 | <edwardk> | ^ this is not a real package |
| 04:07:40 | <edwardk> | it is mostly to avoid the confusion that was being caused by the old package under the name lens-core |
| 04:07:51 | <dmwit> | Why are there so many versions lmao |
| 04:08:18 | <edwardk> | because someone else was using the name |
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| 04:10:15 | <dmwit> | Oh, this was a MatthewFarkasDyck package. Okay I completely understand now. |
| 04:10:17 | <glguy> | Spot the nonexistent package: lens-lite; lens-light; microlens; lens-simple |
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| 04:11:22 | <glguy> | lens-from-scratch; not-another-lens; you-could-have-invented-lens; optics |
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| 04:12:18 | <Lycurgus> | lenscrafters |
| 04:12:24 | <davean> | glguy: Trick question? |
| 04:12:28 | <glguy> | I think my next lens package would be: yall (yet another lens library) |
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| 04:12:56 | <koz_> | lens-2-electric-boogaloo |
| 04:12:56 | <glguy> | but that one is taken; it's also a lens library |
| 04:13:01 | <MarcelineVQ> | and it's support pakcage y'all yet' another lens library |
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| 04:13:18 | <glguy> | davean: One of those first 4 didn't exist (on Hackage) yet |
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| 04:14:05 | <edwardk> | i really want to break lens internally into multiple public sublibraries using cabal 3.4, but i can't yet. |
| 04:14:27 | <davean> | I can't wait either |
| 04:14:28 | <edwardk> | but once i can? then you'd be able to depend on smaller pieces of it if you know what you're doing |
| 04:14:35 | <davean> | I've got a lot of code moving to do once that works well |
| 04:14:47 | <edwardk> | of course, i think there is still a stack issue on multiple component support |
| 04:14:53 | <dmwit> | How does back-compat work for that? What does cabal-3.3 do if you ask it to install a 3.4 package? |
| 04:14:58 | <davean> | Its one of the most exciting features in a while. |
| 04:15:01 | <edwardk> | it won't |
| 04:15:04 | <davean> | dmwit: who cares? |
| 04:15:16 | <davean> | dmwit: theres not any reason to care at all about old cabals. |
| 04:15:18 | <dmwit> | "It won't" seems like a pretty sane answer. |
| 04:15:42 | <davean> | No one should be held back on cabal. |
| 04:15:52 | <edwardk> | in theory i might be able to make the whole shebang work with cabal 3.0 and you only get to access the sub-components with 3.4 |
| 04:15:56 | <edwardk> | but i'm not holding my breath |
| 04:16:02 | <edwardk> | and that is a LOT of compatibility testing |
| 04:16:23 | <glguy> | That's good, because most people can't hold their breath quite as long as that is likely to take |
| 04:16:42 | <edwardk> | i'd code like my life depended on it, for sure |
| 04:16:53 | <edwardk> | but that might be beyond me |
| 04:17:02 | <glguy> | Maybe a new Twitch series? |
| 04:17:11 | <glguy> | How much can edward program on a single breath |
| 04:17:11 | <edwardk> | i should start twitching again |
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| 04:17:38 | <dolio> | I don't know. That sounds bad. |
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| 04:17:41 | dibblego | twitches |
| 04:17:41 | <glguy> | It would be a shorter series than your usual stuff, but possible a good format ;) |
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| 04:22:39 | <fresheyeball> | map :: (forall a. f a -> g a) -> h f b -> h g b |
| 04:22:43 | <fresheyeball> | what would you call this? |
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| 04:23:19 | <dolio> | Is that what people call 'hoist'? |
| 04:24:10 | <fresheyeball> | oh nice, yes |
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| 04:26:09 | <fresheyeball> | dolio: do you think it's worth depending on mmorph for it? |
| 04:26:18 | <dolio> | Not really. |
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| 05:22:40 | <Axman6> | @hoogle hoist |
| 05:22:40 | <lambdabot> | Pipes hoist :: (MFunctor t, Monad m) => (forall a . () => m a -> n a) -> t m b -> t n b |
| 05:22:40 | <lambdabot> | Control.Monad.Morph hoist :: (MFunctor t, Monad m) => (forall a . m a -> n a) -> t m b -> t n b |
| 05:22:41 | <lambdabot> | Streaming hoist :: (MFunctor t, Monad m) => (forall a . () => m a -> n a) -> t m b -> t n b |
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| 06:07:04 | <newhoggy> | Does anyone know if there is any way to get a `ResourceT` to discard all the registered cleanup actions? |
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| 06:15:40 | <newhoggy> | Or even better move all the cleanup actions into an `IO ()` or something like that and then not do any cleanup. |
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| 07:09:21 | <petersen> | Is there a patch to make hgrep work with CPP? (I am not sure if it stopped working?) |
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| 07:30:04 | <dminuoso> | petersen: Judging from a quick look, it should have CPP support already. |
| 07:30:27 | <dminuoso> | https://github.com/thumphries/hgrep/issues/39 |
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| 07:30:59 | <dminuoso> | You just need to figure out what the magical location of that settings file. ;) |
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| 07:49:57 | hackage | dawg-ord 0.5.1.1 - Directed acyclic word graphs https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dawg-ord-0.5.1.1 (JakubWaszczuk) |
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| 07:53:27 | hackage | Z-Data 0.1.3.0 - Array, vector and text https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Z-Data-0.1.3.0 (winterland) |
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| 08:17:58 | hackage | dawg-ord 0.5.1.2 - Directed acyclic word graphs https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dawg-ord-0.5.1.2 (JakubWaszczuk) |
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| 08:21:10 | <idnar> | reading http://h2.jaguarpaw.co.uk/posts/using-brain-less-refactoring-yahtzee/ and I think the parametricity argument is flawed because of the Eq superclass |
| 08:22:08 | <phadej> | idnar: Num doesn't have Eq type-class |
| 08:22:19 | <phadej> | (anymore) |
| 08:22:37 | <phadej> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.0.0/docs/Prelude.html#t:Num |
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| 08:23:02 | <idnar> | huh, when was it changed? |
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| 08:23:46 | <phadej> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.5.0.0/docs/Prelude.html#t:Num is the first without |
| 08:23:53 | <phadej> | i.e. GHC-7.4 |
| 08:24:04 | <phadej> | 8 years ago ;) |
| 08:24:12 | <idnar> | wow |
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| 08:24:53 | <idnar> | I think that's older than any ghc version I've even used |
| 08:25:33 | <idnar> | must have read it in the H98 report or something |
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| 08:26:27 | hackage | hanabi-dealer 0.10.2.0 - Hanabi card game https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hanabi-dealer-0.10.2.0 (SusumuKatayama) |
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| 08:32:30 | <merijn> | idnar: GHC user guide has a section on deviations from the report |
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| 08:33:52 | <shad0w_> | hi. i wanna see info on the Functor typeclass in ghci |
| 08:34:09 | <shad0w_> | :i (Functor) or permutations doesn't seem to work ? |
| 08:35:19 | <phadej> | try :i Functor |
| 08:35:23 | <phadej> | without paranthesis |
| 08:35:40 | <shad0w_> | lmao. i am an idot. |
| 08:35:46 | <shad0w_> | thenks. |
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| 08:55:31 | <AWizzArd> | Yesterday I was looking for something bind-like for Monoids. `Config` is a Semigroup/Monoid. setA, setB, ... setX, setY, setZ are functions of type :: x -> Config -> Config (or instead of x it can be the letter after "set", so a/b/.../y/z). |
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| 08:55:45 | <AWizzArd> | If I continue like this then the nesting would become very deep: let conf = setX myX (setY myY defaultConfig) |
| 08:56:20 | <merijn> | AWizzArd: oh, lemme tell you a cool trick :p |
| 08:56:26 | <merijn> | Config is a Monoid, yeah? |
| 08:57:17 | <merijn> | You can simply do "setX myX <> setY myY" (or, if you've got a lot of them: "mconcat [setX myX, setY myY, ... ]") |
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| 09:00:46 | <AWizzArd> | merijn: I am surprised. |
| 09:00:57 | <merijn> | Why? |
| 09:01:00 | <AWizzArd> | (<>) :: Semigroup a => a -> a -> a |
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| 09:01:34 | <AWizzArd> | So you are not using the Semigroup implementation of Config here? |
| 09:01:41 | <merijn> | AWizzArd: "instance Semigroup a => Semigroup (r -> a) where f <> g = \x -> f x <> g x" |
| 09:01:58 | <merijn> | It's the best Monoid/Semigroup instance! |
| 09:01:59 | <AWizzArd> | Aha, so you are using the fact that Functions are a Semigroup |
| 09:02:12 | <merijn> | Yeah |
| 09:02:16 | <AWizzArd> | merijn: this was essentially what I was looking for. I saw this, dunno, a year ago. |
| 09:02:31 | <AWizzArd> | But I remembered that Config was the SG constraint I was looking for. |
| 09:02:37 | <hekkaidekapus> | AWizzArd: Seconding merijn, you could go further and use any other Foldable than [] and write `flip (appEndo . foldMap Endo) defaultConfig`. |
| 09:02:39 | <AWizzArd> | And it didn’t play well with <> |
| 09:03:28 | <AWizzArd> | Well, yesterday we came up with foldr ($) defaultConfig [setX myX, setY myY, ...] |
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| 09:03:39 | <AWizzArd> | But this wasn’t using the Semigroupnissity here. |
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| 09:11:17 | <AWizzArd> | Another thing that surprised me: main = putStrLn ("Hallo" :: Text) <-- GHC complained about ambiguity. I would have expected that this explicit `:: Text` would help. GHC would understand that I didn’t accidentally hit the wrong key because a pencil fell on my keyboard and this happened to write exactly this char combination. |
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| 09:12:17 | <merijn> | AWizzArd: Would help how? What was the ambiguity? |
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| 09:12:52 | <hekkaidekapus> | @type putStrLn -- AWizzArd |
| 09:12:53 | <lambdabot> | String -> IO () |
| 09:13:27 | <AWizzArd> | hekkaidekapus: I was using the one from Data.Text.IO (putStrLn) |
| 09:13:39 | <AWizzArd> | So both functions were in scope. |
| 09:13:53 | <hekkaidekapus> | So, qualify the usage. |
| 09:14:13 | <hekkaidekapus> | Prelude. or Data.Text. |
| 09:14:15 | <AWizzArd> | hekkaidekapus: yes of course, the fix was easy. But why didn’t the explicit type sig not help? |
| 09:14:18 | <hekkaidekapus> | Prelude. or Data.Text.IO |
| 09:14:31 | <AWizzArd> | -not |
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| 09:15:49 | <lortabac> | AWizzArd: for name overloading you need a type class |
| 09:15:50 | <hekkaidekapus> | Because ("Hallo" :: Text) is its own thing and does not influence how putStrLn works. |
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| 09:20:51 | <merijn> | AWizzArd: GHC doesn't do type directed resolution, so adding a type annotation does nothing |
| 09:20:52 | <edwardk> | idnar: removing the Eq and Show superclasses of Num was done to allow things like instance Num a => Num (x -> a) to not have to lie to users any more if brought in as an orphan. It isn't in scope by default, but it is a thing that was popular with the community at the time. |
| 09:21:04 | <edwardk> | it was one of the first major breaks with the published report in GHC. |
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| 09:28:41 | <shad0w_> | `Any Haskeller worth their salt would reject this code as a gruesome abomination. ` |
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| 09:28:54 | <shad0w_> | - as read on typeclassopedia |
| 09:28:57 | <shad0w_> | LMAO |
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| 09:29:50 | <AWizzArd> | shad0w_: (-: |
| 09:31:29 | <shad0w_> | AWizzArd: lmao, what is that, Schrödinger's smiley ? |
| 09:31:50 | <MarcelineVQ> | sometimes you gotta dodge left |
| 09:32:01 | <AWizzArd> | MarcelineVQ: hahaha |
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| 09:33:21 | <AWizzArd> | MarcelineVQ: I just tried it, and we would have to do it like a chicken, i.e. keeping our head in the position it was before. That way the head will fall on its right side, and the truth of (-: becomes visible. |
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| 09:35:53 | <MarcelineVQ> | after all, why did the chicken cross the road |
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| 09:39:19 | <tdammers> | yeah, that was stupid. don't mess with the road, it'll send its goons to kidnap your children and kill them just to teach you to mind your own fucking business |
| 09:39:38 | <tdammers> | anyway |
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| 09:44:10 | <pjb> | tdammers: yep: https://www.marcelhuijserphotography.com/blog/2014/12/road-ecology-blog-why-did-the-chicken-cross-the-road |
| 09:44:52 | <MarcelineVQ> | all part of the unwritten book a da road |
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| 10:24:28 | hackage | libsystemd-journal 1.4.5 - Haskell bindings to libsystemd-journal https://hackage.haskell.org/package/libsystemd-journal-1.4.5 (OliverCharles) |
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| 10:42:20 | <wjwh> | Quick question: If I have a data structure with a single field like `data ShortText = { contents :: {-# UNPACK #-} !ShortByteString }` , is it always better to make it a `newtype` ? I may want to expand it later with cached character counts etc |
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| 10:43:36 | <Uniaika> | wjwh: newtypes are more appropriate when there is a single field |
| 10:43:58 | <Uniaika> | otherwise, just use `data` |
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| 10:44:26 | <Uniaika> | wjwh: now, to answer your question: you can use `newtype` at first and then convert to `data` |
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| 10:44:37 | <Uniaika> | it's not going to cost you much |
| 10:44:38 | <wjwh> | Fair enough, that might be simpler |
| 10:45:36 | <wjwh> | I'm confusing myself mightily with all this `deriving` stuff, probably more than is necessary |
| 10:45:37 | <wjwh> | :) |
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| 10:50:51 | <wjwh> | Just tested, `UNPACK` won't work with `newtype` but I suppose that's less important for a newtype anyway |
| 10:52:43 | <Uniaika> | wjwh: https://kowainik.github.io/posts/deriving |
| 10:52:45 | <Uniaika> | read. |
| 10:52:51 | <Uniaika> | it's good content. |
| 10:52:53 | <wjwh> | I already had it open :) |
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| 10:54:05 | <wjwh> | But the confusion comes not from the deriving syntax but from that I want some of the instances to differ from the underlying type but not all. :) |
| 10:54:40 | <wjwh> | Ie `Functor` on ShortText should iterate over the utf8 codepoints, not over the bytes in the underlying ShortByteString |
| 10:54:41 | <wjwh> | etc |
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| 10:55:56 | <merijn> | wjwh: ShortText can't be a functor |
| 10:56:03 | <merijn> | The kind doesn't match |
| 10:56:58 | <wjwh> | Fair enough. The Show instance then :) |
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| 11:00:50 | <Uniaika> | wjwh: I'm interested in how you're going to pull this off. :P Meanwhile, when I'm feeling nostalgic of proper string types, I read this https://hexdocs.pm/elixir/String.html |
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| 11:04:51 | <wjwh> | Uniaika FastString is already 80% of what we need, being an UTF-8 encoded ShortByteString with some extra fluff like hash consing. I'm going to reuse most of that, including the String -> ShortByteString UTF8 parsing from GHC.Util.Encoding. I looked at https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/merge_requests/4103 to see which functions I need to start |
| 11:04:52 | <wjwh> | off with for package database reading and it's very manageable. I think the only thing we really need that is not already in FastString is a `Binary` instance |
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| 11:32:27 | hackage | Z-Data 0.1.3.1 - Array, vector and text https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Z-Data-0.1.3.1 (winterland) |
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| 11:48:06 | <kuribas> | > 1 `quot` 0 |
| 11:48:08 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: divide by zero |
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| 12:11:57 | hackage | sized 0.7.0.0 - Sized sequence data-types https://hackage.haskell.org/package/sized-0.7.0.0 (HiromiIshii) |
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| 12:20:09 | <dminuoso> | `wjwh | [10:54:39] Ie `Functor` on ShortText should iterate over the utf8 codepoints, not over the bytes in the underlying ShortByteString` |
| 12:20:16 | <dminuoso> | Ignoring merijn's point, why the codepoints? |
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| 12:20:56 | <dminuoso> | Once you get into textual data, there's lots of different and conflicting notions of what the "unit of reference is" |
| 12:22:16 | <phadej> | I feel that wjwh made a mistake to ask about text stuff on this channel |
| 12:22:39 | <wjwh> | :) |
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| 12:25:24 | <merijn> | Dealing with text is a mistake :p |
| 12:26:35 | <pjb> | there's no such thing as utf8 codepoint. |
| 12:26:43 | <pjb> | unicode codepoints are 21-bit. |
| 12:26:54 | <pjb> | utf8 is a way to encode those 21-bit in a sequence of 8-bit bytes. |
| 12:27:40 | <dminuoso> | Heh, I was debating whether to nitpick about that as well. |
| 12:27:43 | <opqdonut> | surely there's an option to expand to at least 32 bits? |
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| 12:28:09 | <tdammers> | of course. trivially by padding with zeroes, or more involvedly using utf32 encoding |
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| 12:28:35 | <dminuoso> | opqdonut: Sure, but at the end a codepoint is the identifier of a character in the unicode tables. So there's no "utf8 codepoints" but "unicode codepoints" |
| 12:28:36 | <opqdonut> | looks like utf-8 supports 31 bits, utf-16 doesn't |
| 12:28:51 | <opqdonut> | dminuoso: yes, I just got surprised by the 21 bits |
| 12:29:03 | <merijn> | opqdonut: Why? |
| 12:29:15 | <merijn> | opqdonut: That's how many unicode codepoints there are |
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| 12:29:34 | <merijn> | More might be added in the future, sure, but we're not in the future :) |
| 12:29:37 | <dminuoso> | 17 planes with 2^16 codepoints each. |
| 12:29:44 | <opqdonut> | and not all planes are in use |
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| 12:30:03 | <opqdonut> | TIL |
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| 12:32:30 | <dminuoso> | Question... I have a servant app that runs with monad-logger for a custom server monad. I extract the logger with `askLoggerIO`, and build a wai middleware logger with it, and at the end I just run with runStdoutLoggingT which just uses `Data.ByteString.Char8.hPutStr stdout` |
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| 12:33:07 | <dminuoso> | This thing runs inside a docker container, and for reasons that beyond me, the log calls from inside the servant handlers do not produce visible output, while the wai middleware logger does |
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| 12:33:25 | <dminuoso> | The moment I set buffering mode to NoBuffering, the logging from the monad handler re-appears |
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| 12:36:41 | <phadej> | are you sure that your hoistServer sets up the logger properly? |
| 12:36:54 | <arianvp> | phadej: is there any documentation of the haskell-ci config format? |
| 12:37:03 | <phadej> | i.e. that the askLoggerIO you get isn't some $ \_ -> () |
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| 12:37:12 | <arianvp> | (fixing up the CI for servant to support ghc-8.10 =) ) |
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| 12:38:58 | <phadej> | adding tested-with: GHC ... || == 8.10.2 should do the trick |
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| 12:40:01 | <phadej> | haskell-ci --help lists the options, which can be used in cabal.haskell-ci |
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| 12:40:49 | <phadej> | there's also `haskell-ci dump-config` which dumps default config (with comments) if you want to see what knobs are there |
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| 12:42:20 | <dminuoso> | phadej: Ah. Thanks for the question, so Im confident Im hoisting correctly https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/92c698fe5505711092ee6ecc93b021cc |
| 12:42:46 | <dminuoso> | However, since you made me look, my assumption was wrong. Seems like I switched the wai middleware logger to not use my askLoggerIO provided logger after all. |
| 12:43:38 | <phadej> | yes, askLoggerIO yet withStdoutLogger doesn't look right |
| 12:43:53 | <dminuoso> | Should that matter though? I mean if they both just write chunks to stdout |
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| 12:44:02 | <dminuoso> | The fact I see output at all suggests stdout gets flushed at some points |
| 12:44:30 | <phadej> | dunno. |
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| 12:52:44 | <arianvp> | phadej: thanks. I was mostly confused about what these "constraint-set"s are |
| 12:52:46 | <arianvp> | e.g. https://github.com/haskell-servant/servant-swagger/blob/master/cabal.haskell-ci |
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| 13:10:27 | hackage | uusi 0.0.0.0 - A program removing all version constraints of dependencies in .cabal file https://hackage.haskell.org/package/uusi-0.0.0.0 (berberman) |
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| 13:31:09 | <B3d14mit3> | HI |
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| 13:31:19 | <B3d14mit3> | Hello world! |
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| 13:32:39 | <B3d14mit3> | Hello again! |
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| 13:37:24 | <Xnuk> | bye |
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| 13:53:19 | <shad0w_> | hi all. |
| 13:53:38 | <shad0w_> | i am currently learning about Functors on my haskell quest |
| 13:53:57 | <shad0w_> | as an exercise, i need to write the Functor for the data type |
| 13:54:01 | <shad0w_> | `data ITree a = Leaf (Int -> a) | Node [ITree a]` |
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| 13:54:51 | <shad0w_> | what i came up with was |
| 13:54:54 | <shad0w_> | ` |
| 13:54:57 | <shad0w_> | instance Functor ITree where |
| 13:54:57 | <shad0w_> | fmap g (Leaf f) = Leaf (g . f) |
| 13:54:57 | <shad0w_> | fmap _ (Node []) = Node [] |
| 13:54:57 | <shad0w_> | fmap g (Node (x:xs)) = Node ([(fmap g x)] ++ [fmap g (Node xs)]) |
| 13:54:58 | <shad0w_> | ` |
| 13:54:58 | <[exa]> | shad0w_: please pastebin :] |
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| 13:55:25 | <shad0w_> | alright |
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| 13:55:56 | <[exa]> | anyway when it's already here, it looks pretty much okay, the question is why would you create a new Node for fmapping again if you already have stripped the "wrap" once? |
| 13:57:01 | <[exa]> | (hint: recursing manually is sometimes just confusing, if you want to do the same action all over some kind of list, just use `map`) |
| 13:57:03 | <shad0w_> | https://paste.ofcode.org/dxSxd9D9zkSqj86AvE6uXF |
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| 13:57:34 | <shad0w_> | it wouldn't pass the typechecker any other way i tried. |
| 13:58:02 | <shad0w_> | this passed the type check but had me a little confused if it does what i think it does |
| 13:58:07 | <[exa]> | shad0w_: (about pastebins -- pasting more than ~2-3 lines to IRC is widely frowned upon, people here generally don't mind a lot but pastebinning is safer) |
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| 13:58:50 | <shad0w_> | [exa]: i'll be mindfull of that, thanks. im new here. so my IRC ettiquites are a little (non-existant) lol |
| 13:59:36 | <[exa]> | shad0w_: anyway, try giving the compiler this line (instd of both your variants for Node: |
| 13:59:50 | <[exa]> | fmap g (Node a) = Node $ map _ a |
| 14:00:25 | <[exa]> | the _ should produce a "nice" error that tells you what type you need to smash in there |
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| 14:02:06 | <shad0w_> | [exa]: it says found a hole: _ :: ITree a -> ITree b |
| 14:02:28 | hackage | signable-haskell-protoc 0.2 - Deterministic serialisation and signatures with proto-lens support https://hackage.haskell.org/package/signable-haskell-protoc-0.2 (coingaming) |
| 14:02:34 | <shad0w_> | that should just be an (fmap g) |
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| 14:03:57 | hackage | signable 0.2 - Deterministic serialisation and signatures with proto-lens support https://hackage.haskell.org/package/signable-0.2 (coingaming) |
| 14:04:21 | <shad0w_> | byorgey: that was a nice exercise. i needed to grind my brain gears on that one. |
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| 14:06:26 | <[exa]> | shad0w_: yeah, that should work :] |
| 14:07:05 | <shad0w_> | [exa]: Thanks for the help : ) |
| 14:07:26 | <[exa]> | shad0w_: anyway, you can look at the whole construction now as "getting through layers" -- you strip and re-do the Leaf and Node "tags", then you use whatever is needed to get into/modify the inner type |
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| 14:08:04 | <[exa]> | onion approach works quite well for this kind of exercises, and when you don't know, just leave a _ . |
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| 14:08:55 | <shad0w_> | getting fimiliar with the type signatures is what really helps me in the end |
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| 14:09:15 | <shad0w_> | okay i need to go from here -> here via this and this and then that |
| 14:09:32 | <[exa]> | yeah there's a general approach to "just follow the types" |
| 14:09:51 | <shad0w_> | but when a types get a little nested |
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| 14:10:05 | <shad0w_> | it gets hard to keep it in my brain all at once |
| 14:10:10 | <shad0w_> | for now. |
| 14:10:23 | <tdammers> | the great thing about typed languages is that you don't have to |
| 14:10:27 | <shad0w_> | i think it's something you get the hang of as you progress ? |
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| 14:10:30 | <tdammers> | (keep it all in your brain at once, that is) |
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| 14:10:48 | <tdammers> | this is the real reason why people spell out types all the time even when the compiler could infer them |
| 14:10:52 | <tdammers> | it's just easier on the brain |
| 14:10:59 | <shad0w_> | i did a lot js in a previous life |
| 14:11:04 | <shad0w_> | don't i know that lol |
| 14:11:06 | <tdammers> | dump that information in the code so that the compiler can keep track for you |
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| 14:11:15 | <[exa]> | helps a lot eg with writing monad instances and lenses for whatever |
| 14:11:30 | <shad0w_> | i am yet to get to those |
| 14:12:13 | <[exa]> | the second best thing on explicit types written everywhere is that the type errors don't escape |
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| 14:12:22 | <tdammers> | yup |
| 14:12:28 | <[exa]> | but you need a larger program to truly appreciate that |
| 14:13:02 | <tdammers> | yeah, if your code is still within the size limits of the average programmer brain, the benefit is marginal, but once you get past that point, it's super helpful |
| 14:13:05 | <shad0w_> | tdammers: i did a exercism exercise in nim. the mentor reponse was, remove the conrete type from the function signature. the compiler can infer it anyway |
| 14:13:15 | <shad0w_> | i was like:- no can do's ville, baby doll. |
| 14:13:20 | <tdammers> | a bit like asserts on pre- and post-conditions in imperative code, just way more accurate |
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| 14:13:54 | <tdammers> | well, I'm not familiar with nim, so I can't tell whether its type system is useful in the same way as Haskell's |
| 14:14:31 | <shad0w_> | it has a type checker and infer-ness. but i don't think it's hinley milner or the likes |
| 14:15:12 | <tdammers> | I mean, are the types expressive enough to add the kind of value that you can get out of Haskell's types |
| 14:15:28 | <shad0w_> | no context on that lol |
| 14:15:29 | <tdammers> | or is it more like int, bool, string, float, object, done? |
| 14:15:31 | <shad0w_> | newbie in both |
| 14:15:35 | <tdammers> | ah, fair enough |
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| 14:16:57 | <shad0w_> | it has macros too |
| 14:17:09 | <shad0w_> | so i think you can do a fair bit of untyped stuff as well |
| 14:17:18 | <shad0w_> | just never got around to doing that lol |
| 14:17:25 | <tdammers> | macros don't have to bypass the type system |
| 14:17:37 | <shad0w_> | haskell on the other hand. will probably wont let you do untyped stuff |
| 14:17:40 | <tdammers> | Haskell has an untyped macro language (Template Haskell), but its output is stilly typed |
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| 14:18:16 | <shad0w_> | does haskell's FFI also have to be typed ? |
| 14:18:24 | <shad0w_> | like if i interface a C lib |
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| 14:18:39 | <[exa]> | tdammers: you imply that average programmer brain has 25 lines? :D |
| 14:18:55 | <tdammers> | [exa]: now that would be generous. it's really more like 7. |
| 14:19:12 | <[exa]> | goooood |
| 14:19:55 | <davve> | i struggle with 1 line sometimes |
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| 14:20:04 | <tdammers> | shad0w_: then you are responsible for declaring appropriate types on the Haskell side. the compiler will slap you when the types are grossly incompatible, but things like whether a C procedure has side effects (and should thus be declared to return IO something on the Haskell side), that's up to you |
| 14:20:05 | <davve> | (horrible metric) |
| 14:20:09 | <[exa]> | shad0w_: for FFI you need to provide some information on basically how to convert haskell types to C and back; some C types are mapped to normal haskell ones. Otherwise it just works (TM) |
| 14:20:20 | <[exa]> | davve: how wide is your editor tho? |
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| 14:20:49 | <davve> | it automatically breaks at 120 I think |
| 14:20:52 | <davve> | characters |
| 14:21:04 | <shad0w_> | i see. |
| 14:21:06 | <tdammers> | [exa]: if you have to ask what the maximum line length in vim is, then you're in trouble |
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| 14:22:47 | <shad0w_> | uhm. one more thing guys |
| 14:22:49 | <[exa]> | let's measure code in tweets instead, that's a metric you can rely on |
| 14:22:58 | <tdammers> | not at all |
| 14:23:07 | <shad0w_> | there seem to be 2 laws for Functors |
| 14:23:31 | <shad0w_> | and you can basically write code that typechecks but still violates the laws |
| 14:23:33 | <[exa]> | tdammers: except for the SI-breaking 320character change ofc. |
| 14:23:47 | <tdammers> | well, that, but also images, videos, etc |
| 14:24:08 | <shad0w_> | so my Q is, whenever writing a Functor instance. do we also have to explicitly check that it's satisfying those 2 laws everytime ? |
| 14:24:08 | <tdammers> | you can also encode a lot of information in diacritics |
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| 14:24:36 | <[exa]> | shad0w_: the laws are "standardized" so that you know what to expect from other people's functors. If you work with unlawful functors, stuff is likely to not work in unexpected weird ways |
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| 14:25:03 | <[exa]> | shad0w_: the usual problem with that is that the laws cannot be easily typechecked though |
| 14:25:29 | <tdammers> | shad0w_: we don't *have* to; the compiler won't check your code for lawfulness, that's why they're laws, rather than typeclass methods. but it's very much recommended to obey those laws, because if your functor doesn't, then unexpected things can happen, such as things not being equal that should be |
| 14:25:31 | <geekosaur> | there are languages where you must provide proofs of the laws; haskell is not one of them, because it's not powerful enough to test many of them |
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| 14:26:12 | <shad0w_> | [exa]: if i work with unlawful functors, stuff is likely to not work in unexpected weird ways? should'nt it be the opposite. like they will kindda glitch ? |
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| 14:27:08 | <geekosaur> | huh? it's on you to provide lawful functors, other things will assume lawfulness and may break if yours isn't |
| 14:27:52 | <tdammers> | it probably helps to look at some concrete unlawful functors |
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| 14:27:56 | <shad0w_> | geekosaur: i see. so ensure lawfulness if you can everytime ? got it. |
| 14:28:13 | <tdammers> | ensure lawfulness; if you can't, don't write that functor instance |
| 14:28:13 | <geekosaur> | yes. |
| 14:28:15 | <shad0w_> | tdammers: i did. does weird stuff that will glitch at runtime |
| 14:28:59 | <shad0w_> | gotch'a guys. thanks much. |
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| 14:29:28 | <tdammers> | once you have a good intuition for the functor concept, judging the lawfulness of a functor instance becomes a lot easier |
| 14:29:50 | <Cale> | All you have to check in Haskell is that fmap id = id |
| 14:30:01 | <Cale> | Everything else gets enforced by parametricity |
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| 14:30:48 | <shad0w_> | Cale: so if the id works. the second one (function composition) should also work ? |
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| 14:31:31 | <phadej> | gadts... |
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| 14:32:58 | <phadej> | deriving (Functor) is the simplest |
| 14:33:01 | <Orbstheorem> | Hello o/ I'm trying to write an lhs file in markdown, but GHC seems to try to interpret section headings somehow :/ |
| 14:33:24 | <Orbstheorem> | (i.g. `r"^#+.*"`) |
| 14:34:02 | <phadej> | lhs files are latex by default |
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| 14:35:15 | <geekosaur> | or "bird tracks" (lines starting with "> " are documentation) |
| 14:35:25 | <Orbstheorem> | I wrote my file using bird tracks. |
| 14:35:32 | <Orbstheorem> | Oh: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/literate-markdown |
| 14:35:45 | <phadej> | geekosaur: other way around |
| 14:35:53 | <phadej> | bird tracks are code |
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| 14:37:38 | <Cale> | shad0w_: yes |
| 14:37:59 | <Cale> | @free (a -> b) -> f a -> f b |
| 14:38:00 | <lambdabot> | Try `free <ident>` or `free <ident> :: <type>` |
| 14:38:25 | <Cale> | @free putativeFmap :: (a -> b) -> f a -> f b |
| 14:38:25 | <lambdabot> | Extra stuff at end of line |
| 14:38:40 | <Cale> | hmm, I forget how to use this thing, lol |
| 14:38:43 | <Cale> | @free fmap |
| 14:38:45 | <lambdabot> | Extra stuff at end of line in retrieved type "Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b" |
| 14:38:49 | <Cale> | weird |
| 14:40:35 | <sm[m]> | "haskell's not relatively unpopular because it was late to add things like linear types. It's relatively unpopular because it doesn't care much about user experience. Consider: it's getting linear types before an efficient string type in `base`." |
| 14:41:10 | <maerwald> | true |
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| 14:41:16 | <dolio> | I think you might need quantifiers. |
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| 14:41:53 | <maerwald> | sm[m]: we tend to add esoteric stuff, but not care too much about technical deb |
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| 14:41:55 | <maerwald> | t |
| 14:42:16 | <dminuoso> | sm[m]: I dont think it's the right characterization. I find it unlikely that the main thing that people drives away from Haskell is "String is inefficient". |
| 14:42:38 | <int-e> | but why does it have to be in base... base is too big already |
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| 14:43:13 | <Cale> | The thing that prevents Haskell from being popular is that it is very much unlike most other programming languages |
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| 14:43:23 | <geekosaur> | I thought @free didn't support typeclasses or something like that |
| 14:43:26 | <sm[m]> | here's the full comment for context: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24570095 |
| 14:43:38 | <Cale> | geekosaur: ah, perhaps! |
| 14:43:39 | <dolio> | It supports some now. |
| 14:43:41 | <Cale> | @free map |
| 14:43:43 | <lambdabot> | g . h = k . f => $map g . map h = map k . $map f |
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| 14:43:50 | <Cale> | Yeah, there we go |
| 14:43:59 | <dolio> | But it wouldn't support functor, I think. |
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| 14:44:12 | <dolio> | Oh wait, I think I'm thinking of djinn. |
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| 14:46:13 | <AWizzArd> | How efficiently can ghc compile this? setA a <> setB b <> ... <> setZ z $ defaultConfig |
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| 14:46:38 | <AWizzArd> | The end result will be setA a defaultConfig <> setB b defaultConfig <> ... <> setZ z defaultConfig |
| 14:46:50 | <dminuoso> | AWizzArd: Hard to say in general. |
| 14:47:08 | <AWizzArd> | ok |
| 14:47:20 | <dolio> | It might figure it all out, but it seems like it's just asking for trouble. |
| 14:47:22 | <dmwit> | How inefficient is it possible to get with something so simple? |
| 14:47:43 | <int-e> | ghc inlines heavily so this can easily reduce to a single constructor application. |
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| 14:48:44 | <dminuoso> | AWizzArd: Also, for that concrete part, compile with -O2 and look at the core? |
| 14:48:55 | <dminuoso> | Then you know exactly how GHC will compile it. ;) |
| 14:49:04 | <dmwit> | The worst thing I can imagine the compiler doing has the same asymptotics as the best thing I can imagine it doing. |
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| 14:50:19 | <int-e> | Constructing a configuration... seems unlikely to be a hotspot in the code. |
| 14:50:59 | <int-e> | If it were a hotspot... constant factors matter. |
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| 14:51:38 | <int-e> | (And we care. List fusion mostly does not affect asymptotics, but it makes a huge difference for constant factors.) |
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| 14:52:42 | <int-e> | (List fusion, ironically, also means that our inefficient String type can carry a lot of stuff efficiently enough... as long as strings are generated and consumed on the fly, not stored.) |
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| 14:53:49 | <dolio> | Does text do fusion? |
| 14:54:05 | <Taneb> | Yes, sometimes |
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| 15:25:04 | <AWizzArd> | Is there a way to register some kind of onSuccessfulServerStart hook that will allow me to print "Service started!" somewhere? |
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| 15:31:31 | <phadej> | using what? warp? |
| 15:32:03 | <phadej> | there is e.g. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/warp-3.3.13/docs/Network-Wai-Handler-Warp.html#v:setBeforeMainLoop |
| 15:33:07 | <AWizzArd> | phadej: looks good |
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| 15:44:52 | <nihilazo> | hi, I'd like to compile some haskell software (and also maybe ghc itself, but that might be harder) for my aarch64 linux tablet. It doesn't have a native version of ghc currently available, is there a way to cross-compile haskell software/the compiler itself for aarch64? |
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| 15:45:48 | <glguy> | nihilazo: I don't know, but you might try #ghc as well |
| 15:47:03 | <phadej> | there are ready bindists |
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| 15:51:07 | <nihilazo> | ready bindlists? |
| 15:51:44 | <phadej> | already compiled BINary DISTibutions |
| 15:51:49 | <phadej> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/8.10.2/ has ghc-8.10.2-aarch64-deb10-linux.tar.xz |
| 15:51:54 | <phadej> | e.g. |
| 15:52:23 | <nihilazo> | ah, I guess the binaries are just not available as packages in my distro |
| 15:52:26 | <nihilazo> | thanks |
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| 15:53:09 | <phadej> | where deb10 tells which versions of system packages its compiled against (e.g. ncurses/libtinfo/...) |
| 15:53:43 | <nihilazo> | ok, I'm on arch linux arm (I know that haskell people seem to hate arch, but it is the best of the distros available for my device) |
| 15:54:01 | <nihilazo> | I'll try the bindists |
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| 15:56:56 | <dolio> | People used to recommend arch as the best for Haskell, but then arch did something that causes a huge amount of problems with the system packages. |
| 15:57:25 | <maerwald> | when did ppl do that |
| 15:57:37 | <dolio> | Several years ago. |
| 15:59:51 | <perdent> | Anyone here a cryptographer or good with cryptography/maths? |
| 16:00:42 | <phadej> | perdent: would you trust me if I say yes? |
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| 16:01:29 | <perdent> | phadej: don't need trust when i can test you :) |
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| 16:02:18 | <phadej> | are you looking for a person to employ? |
| 16:02:38 | <phadej> | I don't feel like having tests now -> |
| 16:03:24 | <noctux> | hmm, wasn't that shipping dynamic systems libraries for haskell exclusively? |
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| 16:04:24 | <dolio> | Not always. |
| 16:04:36 | ← | Hatsue[m] parts (berbermanm@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jedikmhqbmeklcae) ("Kicked by @appservice-irc:matrix.org : Idle for 30+ days") |
| 16:04:36 | <dolio> | GHC didn't always have dynamic linking for Haskell libraries. |
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| 16:18:21 | <AWizzArd> | I just wanted to ask if anyone here has experience with using Gitlab as build server (ci/cd) and then realized that GHC itself is using it. This should hopefuly mean that less complex projects than GHC will also run fine with it. |
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| 16:20:18 | <maerwald> | AWizzArd: maintaining gitlab isn't fun |
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| 17:14:13 | <AWizzArd> | maerwald: your alternative? |
| 17:14:39 | <maerwald> | AWizzArd: gitea, but I don't do CI there |
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| 17:14:49 | <maerwald> | it has some integration, but I don't know how good |
| 17:15:25 | <AWizzArd> | maerwald: I am using gitea right now. Plus Jenkins. |
| 17:15:51 | <AWizzArd> | I miss commenting commits and would like to have integrated ci. |
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| 17:23:31 | <maerwald> | I miss Software not pissing me off |
| 17:24:11 | <geekosaur> | that happened at some point? |
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| 17:25:04 | <maerwald> | you missed it... |
| 17:25:54 | <sm[m]> | That is a feature more software should prioritise |
| 17:25:57 | hackage | rpmbuild-order 0.4.3.1 - Order RPM packages by dependencies https://hackage.haskell.org/package/rpmbuild-order-0.4.3.1 (JensPetersen) |
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| 17:30:13 | <maerwald> | sm[m]: I believe it was better 20 years ago. It just had less features |
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| 17:36:00 | <sm[m]> | I remember a lot of swearing at broken joysticks and unreliable tape drives. Strangely the software doesn't stand out, maybe you're right |
| 17:36:21 | <sm[m]> | limited well defined scope |
| 17:37:06 | <sm[m]> | and very simple dependencies at all times |
| 17:37:29 | <geekosaur> | I kept running into software that didn't do what it was supposed to, starting with a crashing bug in my first computer (granting it was an uncommon machine) |
| 17:37:43 | <geekosaur> | guess I always had the wrong software/hardware |
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| 17:38:19 | <sm[m]> | I'm sure you're more on the mark, I've just forgotten |
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| 17:39:32 | <sm[m]> | Sinclair computers used to crash when you wobbled the ram pack |
| 17:39:32 | <davean> | I remember a lot of limits, but rarely anger inducing things. One bug stands out strongly, and that was with RPM package management ... |
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| 17:56:51 | <AWizzArd> | How can I see with cabal the exact version of my dependencies? |
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| 17:59:15 | <sclv> | AWizzArd: `cabal freeze` will generate a freeze file with exact versions |
| 17:59:36 | <sclv> | you can then delete the file or move it to prevent it from "locking in" those deps to future runs |
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| 18:00:52 | <AWizzArd> | sclv: that looks good. The output file that you expect is named `cabal.config` yes? |
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| 18:04:38 | <sclv> | with recent cabal the file is cabal.project.freeze |
| 18:04:49 | <sclv> | with cabal version 2 its something else |
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| 18:07:26 | <AWizzArd> | sclv: thx! |
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| 18:12:29 | <p0a> | Hello what is wrong with "fmap (-3) (Just 2)" ? |
| 18:12:35 | <p0a> | I was expecting Just -1 |
| 18:13:11 | <geekosaur> | haskell oddity with negative numbers |
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| 18:13:48 | <p0a> | Oh whoops, thank you I just realized it |
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| 18:14:15 | <geekosaur> | the Prelude offers "subtract" as a workaround: fmap (subtract 3) (Just 2) |
| 18:14:32 | <p0a> | What is the other way to write fmap? |
| 18:14:53 | <p0a> | I wanted to negate, so I'll just negate :) |
| 18:15:20 | <p0a> | but in fact negate is not defined so I'll use (-1)* for matrices |
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| 18:24:06 | <monochrom> | I think "fmap ((-1) *)" does it? |
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| 18:25:02 | <monochrom> | "the other way to write fmap" maybe you have infix <$> in mind? |
| 18:25:08 | <nshepperd> | why isn't negate defined for you matrices |
| 18:25:35 | <merijn> | Presumably they're not Num instances? |
| 18:25:48 | <p0a> | nshepperd: I'm using hmatrix and it doesn't have it |
| 18:26:05 | <p0a> | but I can use ((-1)*) yeah. Thanks, <$> was what I had in mind |
| 18:27:15 | <nshepperd> | you sure? the source code on hackage seems to have negate = liftMatrix negate which is pretty much what you'd expect |
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| 18:29:27 | <p0a> | You may be right nshepperd I can't locate it myself, under which name? |
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| 18:32:16 | <nshepperd> | http://hackage.haskell.org/package/hmatrix-0.20.0.0/docs/src/Numeric.Matrix.html#line-48 |
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| 18:33:46 | <p0a> | I can't get it to work |
| 18:34:55 | <p0a> | When I try `negate (2><2)[1,2,3,4]' I get the error No instance for (Num ([Double] -> Matrix Double)) arising from use of 'it' |
| 18:36:14 | <nshepperd> | that's because it's parsing it like '(negate (2><2)) [1,2,3,4]' |
| 18:36:58 | <p0a> | oooh thank you |
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| 19:07:27 | hackage | stm-actor 0.2.2.0 - A simplistic actor model based on STM https://hackage.haskell.org/package/stm-actor-0.2.2.0 (sgschlesinger) |
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| 19:14:40 | <Cheery> | Can someone look in a bit and tell me if Ihave understood push/enter model correct? https://gist.github.com/cheery/685e28e2cd969451b0bde42ce801d269 |
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| 19:17:15 | <Cheery> | The another thing I'd like to understand is the thunk update in STG. I wonder if they could be represented here through ST or IORefs. |
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| 19:23:27 | <koz_> | Cheery: Push-enter essentially behaves like Forth I think? |
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| 19:30:44 | <dolio> | I don't know if that representation is going to be able to really illustrate the difference between push/enter and eval/apply. |
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| 19:37:25 | <dminuoso> | Cheery: Did you read `How to make a fast curry: push/enter vs eval/apply` maybe? The introduction alone gives a very succint and accurate description. |
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| 19:39:29 | <koz_> | dminuoso: Is that the paper that basically says 'don't use push/enter'? |
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| 19:40:33 | <Cheery> | I'm a bit confused because I thought STG is still doing push/enter ? |
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| 19:53:23 | <Cheery> | koz_: I did scan the paper through.. It's saying the choice there is distraction for a compiler, but doesn't say anything about interpreters. |
| 19:53:56 | <Cheery> | hm.. Maybe I should look into the rpython stg implementation and see if it's correctly built. |
| 19:54:16 | <Cheery> | https://github.com/cgswords/laurens |
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| 20:00:04 | <Cheery> | but that's harder to look through though. I think the hard thing is the thunk updates. |
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| 20:02:04 | <Cheery> | It can be I overlook something.. The only place where a thunk is 'entered' is when it's dereferenced. |
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| 20:04:24 | <dminuoso> | Cheery: The STG stack contains arguments and continuations. |
| 20:04:37 | <dminuoso> | On GHC's implementation, anyhow. |
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| 20:05:28 | hackage | Z-IO 0.1.1.0 - Simple and high performance IO toolkit for Haskell https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Z-IO-0.1.1.0 (winterland) |
| 20:05:54 | <dminuoso> | For a better comparison, you can dive into ministg which provides both evaluation models |
| 20:06:07 | <dminuoso> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ministg |
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| 20:08:33 | <Cheery> | oh so it doesn't change the STG, but there are two sets of operational semantics. |
| 20:08:57 | <Cheery> | sets of rules* |
| 20:08:58 | <dolio> | It doesn't change it much. |
| 20:09:23 | <dolio> | And it has a lot more influence on levels below STG. |
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| 20:19:27 | hackage | Z-IO 0.1.1.1 - Simple and high performance IO toolkit for Haskell https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Z-IO-0.1.1.1 (winterland) |
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| 20:39:27 | <koz_> | Cheery: For interpreters, yeah, question is trickier. |
| 20:39:34 | <koz_> | I'd have to re-read the paper to be sure. |
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| 20:41:56 | <dolio> | You don't have to. |
| 20:42:07 | <dolio> | You should do what they did in the paper, build both and test which is better. |
| 20:42:27 | <koz_> | dolio: I'd at least like to remind myself of their conclusions and why. |
| 20:42:45 | <koz_> | Not saying it's equivalent to testing and measuring, but I'm curious what they found was holding push/enter back. |
| 20:42:48 | <koz_> | (since I can't remember) |
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| 20:45:45 | <dolio> | The paper says it's impossible to tell which is better just by thinking about it. You need to actually test which is better. |
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| 20:46:36 | <Cheery> | yeah. I think pypy community might have done this to you already. |
| 20:46:40 | <koz_> | dolio: Thanks for the reminder. |
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| 20:51:22 | <dolio> | I'm not sure it's really going to make a lot of sense to implement push/enter in an interpreter in the way it actually shows up in that paper, though. |
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| 20:51:53 | <dolio> | Where each function has its own separate generated code that examines the stack for arguments. |
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| 20:53:09 | <Cheery> | yay.. I found a paper. |
| 20:53:11 | <Cheery> | Trace-based just-in-time compiler for Haskell with RPython |
| 20:53:56 | <Cheery> | it says they weren't able to beat GHC with that though. |
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| 20:56:18 | <Cheery> | about hundred times slower than ghc with -O2 |
| 20:56:32 | <koz_> | Cheery: Link to said paper? |
| 20:56:40 | <Cheery> | https://ntnuopen.ntnu.no/ntnu-xmlui/bitstream/handle/11250/253137/618488_FULLTEXT01.pdf?sequence=1 |
| 20:57:03 | <dolio> | There's at least one sub-optimal case if you really implement some of what it says. Like, applying a PAp might dump all its stored arguments to the stack, then just copy them back to build a new PAp if it's still under-applied. |
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| 20:57:18 | <dolio> | But I'm not sure how much that case matters. |
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| 21:09:18 | <Rembane> | cabal install has two groups of commands that seem awfully similar too each other, are the v2-* and new-* aliases to each other? |
| 21:09:32 | <dolio> | Yes. |
| 21:09:44 | <Rembane> | Good. And confusing. |
| 21:09:49 | <Rembane> | Thank you. |
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| 21:10:56 | <merijn> | Rembane: new- is from when they where in development and not actually intended to be used by anyone but brave souls |
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| 21:13:50 | <Rembane> | merijn: Got it. Those were the days... or something... |
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| 21:24:18 | <merijn> | Rembane: It worked well enough for me to switch :p |
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| 21:52:57 | hackage | th-test-utils 1.1.0 - Utility functions for testing Template Haskell code https://hackage.haskell.org/package/th-test-utils-1.1.0 (leapyear) |
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| 23:52:54 | × | spew quits (uid195861@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-waxyqwwasdbxecct) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
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All times are in UTC on 2020-09-24.