Logs on 2020-09-25 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 00:02:57 | hackage | ttc 0.2.3.0 - Textual Type Classes https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ttc-0.2.3.0 (TravisCardwell) |
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| 00:32:53 | <koz_> | I need to go from Data.Fixed.Pico to Data.Fixed.Milli, rounding down (i.e., hacking off all the digits I'm not interested in). How do I spell that? |
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| 00:34:45 | <Axman6> | coerce . (`div` 1000) |
| 00:34:46 | <Axman6> | >_> |
| 00:34:58 | <koz_> | Axman6: Wait seriously. |
| 00:35:00 | <Axman6> | that's almost definitely wrong |
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| 00:35:07 | <koz_> | Yeah, I thought so. |
| 00:35:18 | <koz_> | Since I don't think Fixed coerces like that. |
| 00:35:18 | <Axman6> | I think |
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| 00:36:12 | <Axman6> | but, picoToMilli is probably something like picoToMilli (Fixed n) = Fixed (n `div` 1000000) -- I can't remember what the right factor is |
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| 00:37:22 | <koz_> | Well, Pico is Fixed E12, while Milli is Fixed E3, so I guess nine zeroes? |
| 00:38:13 | <c_wraith> | I'm surprised there isn't a conversion function that uses a class to get those right. |
| 00:38:31 | <koz_> | c_wraith: Me neither. |
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| 00:38:38 | <koz_> | s/neither/too/ |
| 00:38:41 | <koz_> | Argh. |
| 00:38:46 | <Axman6> | would be nice if these days Fixed used Nat instead of unrelated data types |
| 00:39:04 | <Axman6> | argh indeed, the queen would be ashamed commonwealth bro |
| 00:39:05 | <c_wraith> | still, I think you should be able to use realToFrac ? |
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| 00:41:02 | <koz_> | c_wraith: Like, directly? |
| 00:41:06 | <koz_> | :t 1e9 |
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| 00:41:08 | <lambdabot> | Fractional p => p |
| 00:41:12 | <koz_> | > 1e9 |
| 00:41:15 | <lambdabot> | 1.0e9 |
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| 00:41:49 | <c_wraith> | yeah, Fixed has all the right instances |
| 00:44:10 | <koz_> | Nice. |
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| 01:07:02 | <wwwww> | What is your toughts about realtime programs with haskell? |
| 01:07:11 | <koz_> | wwwww: Define 'realtime'. |
| 01:07:34 | <wwwww> | koz_: multiplayer game server |
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| 01:08:00 | <koz_> | wwwww: Like, for running a multiplayer FPS game? |
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| 01:08:08 | <koz_> | (for instance) |
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| 01:09:31 | <wwwww> | Not the game itself but the server, koz_ |
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| 01:13:07 | <c_wraith> | so very soft realtime |
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| 01:14:04 | <c_wraith> | you can do that fine with GHC-compiled Haskell, though it might require some additional discipline to keep GC latency lower than you'd care about in many applications. |
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| 01:14:15 | <Axman6> | ir probably depends on how complicated the server is going to get - if it's something simple enough that there won't be much garbase, garbage collection shouldn't be such an issue. the new GC should help with latency too |
| 01:14:36 | <koz_> | Axman6: Is new GC already landed, or is it landing in 9? |
| 01:15:12 | <Axman6> | pretty sure it's in 8.10? I could be wrong |
| 01:15:39 | <c_wraith> | there are also things you can do technically like using compact regions to massively reduce pointer chasing on retained memory. |
| 01:15:59 | <Axman6> | yeah large, infrequently changing state should be in a compact region |
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| 01:16:57 | <c_wraith> | those are things that often don't matter, but might be really important for a soft realtime application. |
| 01:17:13 | <c_wraith> | So... the tools are available, but some of them require manual work. |
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| 01:19:58 | <Axman6> | As with most software, make it work, then make it fast |
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| 01:20:25 | <koz_> | Or alternatively, make it work, check if fast enough, make fast if not. |
| 01:20:56 | <Axman6> | nah, just always make it fast |
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| 01:21:07 | <wwwww> | That's what i'm trying to do these days, threadscope was useful tool |
| 01:21:09 | <Axman6> | save some penguins by using fewer cycles |
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| 01:29:02 | <wwwww> | I have 80% productivity according to profile but that 20% is GC |
| 01:29:08 | <sm[m]> | my first time using optparse-applicative in years (via optparse-simple).. could someone explain what I'm doing wrong here ? why won't it parse "2" to Just 2 ? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/6tXUenQu |
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| 01:31:34 | <sm[m]> | incidentally https://github.com/tomsmeding/pastebin-haskell deserves more stars |
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| 01:37:27 | hackage | http-date 0.0.9 - HTTP Date parser/formatter https://hackage.haskell.org/package/http-date-0.0.9 (KazuYamamoto) |
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| 01:38:38 | <sm[m]> | hmm, also why does optparse complain if I add +RTS ... or -- +RTS ... ? That doesn't happen with cmdargs |
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| 01:53:59 | <Axman6> | sm[m]: I think you're actually asking for a Maybe (Maybe Int) by using option |
| 01:54:55 | <Axman6> | I'm surprised you'd have problems with +RTS ... -RTS, those args should never get to your app. are you closing them with -RTS? |
| 01:56:09 | <Axman6> | sm[m]: basicazlly, I think what you need to do to fix the Maybe thing is not use value Nothing, just remove that and wrap the parser for that arg in optional (there's probably a better way, looking now) |
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| 01:56:28 | <sm[m]> | Axman6: thanks, you are helping |
| 01:56:35 | <Axman6> | using value means that parser will never fail |
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| 01:57:49 | <Axman6> | uh, that isn't true, it'll ail is it can't parse the type you want |
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| 01:59:27 | <Axman6> | sm[m]: https://github.com/data61/Mirza/blob/07ac1dc96d158e316cde0d7195718599095bebc9/projects/trails/src/Mirza/Trails/Main.hs#L212 shows how to parse Maybe FilePAth |
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| 02:00:17 | <Axman6> | which is a FilePath with a Boston accent |
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| 02:03:41 | <sm[m]> | thanks! optional was the trick, https://paste.tomsmeding.com/OEBwVvKS#file-3 |
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| 02:04:12 | <Axman6> | there's still more going on there than needed, one sec |
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| 02:04:40 | <sm[m]> | years later, optparse still makes me feel stupid |
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| 02:05:05 | <sm[m]> | could better docs help ? I'm not sure |
| 02:05:07 | <Axman6> | https://github.com/data61/Mirza/blob/07ac1dc96d158e316cde0d7195718599095bebc9/projects/trails/src/Mirza/Trails/Main.hs#L186 parses an Int using Read, so I thinkyou want optional (option auto (...)) |
| 02:05:40 | <sm[m]> | ah much better |
| 02:05:53 | <Axman6> | no need for the readMay stuff |
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| 02:09:31 | <sm[m]> | and I see +RTS works fine when compiled, but GHCI messes up command line parsing causing optparse to see it |
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| 02:12:19 | <Axman6> | yeah you can't pass RTS args like that, since the RTS is already running, it's GHC's RTS |
| 02:12:24 | <Axman6> | GHCi's* |
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| 02:12:54 | <Axman6> | if you need specific RTS args, then you'll need to start GHCi using them (probably) |
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| 02:21:58 | <sm[m]> | oh, aha, is that it. Thanks again! |
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| 02:28:49 | lagothrix | is now known as Guest96911 |
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| 02:33:57 | hackage | aeson-schemas 1.3.0 - Easily consume JSON data on-demand with type-safety https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aeson-schemas-1.3.0 (leapyear) |
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| 03:24:02 | <z1> | I'm trying to figure out why the runtime of this function is theta(km + n(m^2)). Is the (n(m^2)) term due to having to copy the (ws ++x) term each iteration? |
| 03:24:04 | <z1> | f xss = g [] xss |
| 03:24:06 | <z1> | g ws [] = ws |
| 03:24:08 | <z1> | g ws (x:xs) = g (ws ++ x) xs |
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| 03:25:00 | <dolio> | Yes, `ws ++ x` has to rebuild `ws`. |
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| 03:25:48 | <z1> | @dolio awesome thanks! |
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| 03:25:48 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
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| 03:26:30 | <ski> | better use direct recursion version here, rather than an accumulator |
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| 03:28:33 | <ski> | in general, avoid left-nesting calls to `++', like `((([] ++ x0) ++ x1) ++ x2) ++ x3', which is what happens with the accumulator, in your definition |
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| 03:29:35 | <ski> | `x2' will there be traversed once, `x1' twice, `x0' thrice .. hence this ends up quadratic, rather than the expected linear |
| 03:31:01 | <ski> | (also, if you'd like to, read about the "Schlemiel the Painter" algorithm, by Joel Spolsky, at <https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2001/12/11/back-to-basics/>) |
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| 04:36:57 | hackage | antlr-haskell 0.1.0.1 - A Haskell implementation of the ANTLR top-down parser generator https://hackage.haskell.org/package/antlr-haskell-0.1.0.1 (KarlCronburg) |
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| 05:07:57 | hackage | graphql-client 1.1.0 - A client for Haskell programs to query a GraphQL API https://hackage.haskell.org/package/graphql-client-1.1.0 (leapyear) |
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| 06:03:04 | <MarcelineVQ> | What would you call patterns like Just{} ? |
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| 06:04:10 | <opqdonut> | constructor-only patterns? |
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| 06:05:04 | <MarcelineVQ> | exactly, is that what you'd call them? |
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| 06:08:28 | <opqdonut> | yeah |
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| 06:46:28 | hackage | hablog 0.7.0 - A blog system https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hablog-0.7.0 (gilmi) |
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| 06:54:57 | <dminuoso> | MarcelineVQ: The Haskell report formally calls them labeled patterns in the general case. |
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| 07:01:02 | <glguy> | > isJust Just{} |
| 07:01:04 | <lambdabot> | True |
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| 07:01:15 | <glguy> | > isJust Nothing {} |
| 07:01:17 | <lambdabot> | False |
| 07:01:56 | <glguy> | Not really pattern-specific. It's record notation |
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| 07:05:49 | <dminuoso> | Mmm, this does seem a bit inconsistent. Usually a pattern matches values constructed in the same fashion |
| 07:05:59 | <dminuoso> | But Just{} does *not* match values exactly constructed by Just{} |
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| 07:12:14 | <solonarv> | this is already not true for record patterns |
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| 07:12:43 | <solonarv> | @let data Two = Two { two1 :: Int, two2 :: Int } deriving (Show, Eq, Ord) |
| 07:12:45 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 07:13:11 | <solonarv> | > case Two { two1 = 1, two2 = 2 } of Two {two1 = 1} -> "ok" |
| 07:13:13 | <lambdabot> | "ok" |
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| 07:21:55 | <Axman6> | > let x = x { two1 = 1 } in case x of Two{two1 = 1} -> "ok" |
| 07:21:58 | <lambdabot> | "*Exception: <<loop>> |
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| 07:31:38 | <solonarv> | interesting, I sort of expected x = Two 1 _|_ here |
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| 09:34:08 | <justsomeguy> | Is there a function like (!!) that also works for negative indices? |
| 09:37:24 | <Rembane> | justsomeguy: When you do let xs = [1,2,3,4] in xs !! (-2), what result do you expect? |
| 09:37:34 | <justsomeguy> | 3 |
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| 09:38:17 | <solonarv> | ah, indexing from the other end like python does? |
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| 09:38:50 | <Rembane> | justsomeguy: You can do let f i xs = xs !! (length xs + i) |
| 09:38:56 | <Rembane> | justsomeguy: But it's incredibly expensive. |
| 09:38:58 | <Jajik> | then reverse it and use (!!) . abs, but the list is not the best structure for that |
| 09:39:28 | <justsomeguy> | Should I be using Data.Array, instead? (...and does it support negative indices?) |
| 09:39:56 | <justsomeguy> | solonarv: Exactly. I had pythons subscript notation in mind. |
| 09:39:56 | <solonarv> | if you want to index to arbitrary positions (especially near the end), you probably shouldn't be using lists, yes |
| 09:40:06 | <MarcelineVQ> | if you need arbitrary indexing vector or array will serve you better, on a list of 4 items I wouldn't sweat the small stuff |
| 09:40:11 | <Rembane> | justsomeguy: Use Data.Vector, it has a nicer API |
| 09:40:33 | <solonarv> | array or vector have efficient indexing (I recommend vector due to the nicer API, especially if you only care about Int indexes) |
| 09:40:52 | <solonarv> | it doesn't have this "wraparound" indexing but you can easily build it |
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| 09:41:57 | <solonarv> | xs !* n | n < 0 = xs ! (n + length xs) ; otherwise = xs ! n |
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| 09:50:54 | <phadej> | what [1,2,3,4] !! -10 would do? |
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| 09:51:27 | <phadej> | generally, I consider !! a smell in Haskell. |
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| 09:54:23 | <MarcelineVQ> | that's the entire definition, modulo modulo |
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| 10:10:18 | <maerwald> | there's no forkFinally equivalent in async? |
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| 10:21:27 | hackage | Z-IO 0.1.1.2 - Simple and high performance IO toolkit for Haskell https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Z-IO-0.1.1.2 (winterland) |
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| 10:55:07 | <maralorn> | That reminds me of the horrible time I worked with a custom language for evaluating measurements of certain measurement devices written by the vendor. In there arrays where the primary data structure for stuff like time series of an oscilloscope. |
| 10:56:03 | <maralorn> | I lost at least on day to debugging, before I learnad that their indexing operator gave you the last element of an array when you gave it an out-of-bounds index (silently without any error message). |
| 10:57:01 | <maralorn> | I don‘t want to know how many published experimental results are secretly wrong because of that crazy language design decision. /o\ |
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| 11:16:34 | <dminuoso> | Mmm, I wish more code would be written MonadIO polymorphic. :( |
| 11:17:00 | <dminuoso> | The amount of liftIO sprinkling is getting somewhat annoying |
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| 11:18:32 | <kenran> | dminuoso: I second that... |
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| 11:46:09 | <maerwald> | don't use transformers |
| 11:46:11 | <maerwald> | :p |
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| 11:46:47 | <[exa]> | isn't this "solved" in some of the alternative preludes? (rererebase?) |
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| 11:50:31 | <maerwald> | transformers look like an effects DLS, but they feel like an OOP pattern |
| 11:51:01 | <dminuoso> | maerwald: This has nothing to do with transformers. |
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| 11:51:27 | <maerwald> | how so? |
| 11:51:49 | <dminuoso> | [exa]: an alternative prelude would give you huge transitive dependency footprints if this is done widely |
| 11:51:56 | <dminuoso> | My beef is not just with base, but packages in general. |
| 11:52:10 | <maerwald> | why are you using liftIO if you don't have any transformers in your code |
| 11:52:20 | <fendor> | can I derive Monoid and Semigroup for a datatype where all fields are an instance of semigroup and monoid? |
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| 11:53:31 | <dminuoso> | maerwald: You can write monads yourself too. |
| 11:53:48 | <phadej> | fendor: yes, look at semigroups Data.Semigroup.Generic |
| 11:54:10 | <fendor> | phadej, thanks! |
| 11:54:14 | <dminuoso> | fendor: generic-deriving has the facilities |
| 11:54:26 | <[exa]> | dminuoso: i said it's "solved" :] |
| 11:54:33 | <maerwald> | dminuoso: yes, you can write transformers yourself |
| 11:54:34 | <dminuoso> | heh fair |
| 11:55:16 | <maerwald> | but you don't seem to want to disclose what you're doing, so I'm not gonna pull it out of your nose :p |
| 11:55:27 | <dminuoso> | maerwald: A transformer is a higher order utility to transform monads into monads. If I just create a data type myself, Im not using any transformer, am IO? |
| 11:55:53 | <dminuoso> | Oh hah. That muscle memory tricked me into writing IO. |
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| 11:57:57 | <maerwald> | dminuoso: you're writing an instance of MonadIO? Then you have a transformer |
| 11:59:17 | <dminuoso> | maerwald: `ReaderT e` is a transformer. Neither the type `ReaderT Env IO`, nor a type isomorphic to `ReaderT Env IO` is a transformer. |
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| 11:59:44 | <maerwald> | "Instances should satisfy the following laws, which state that liftIO is a transformer of monads" |
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| 12:01:24 | <dminuoso> | Is that not rather a monad homomorphism? |
| 12:02:03 | <dminuoso> | The documentation seems just a bit off |
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| 12:15:15 | <AWizzArd> | I am using the nix-shell to produce a development environment. But it’s only a thin layer, I still rely on my OS offering tools. So my shell is not --pure and I expect that for example Emacs is available. |
| 12:15:19 | <AWizzArd> | At some point though I want to use Nix (not necessarily its shell) to produce a Docker image for me. |
| 12:15:23 | <AWizzArd> | Now I want to use SSL and will need cacerts in the resulting docker images. In an Ubuntu-based Dockerfile I would apt install ca-certificates. |
| 12:15:27 | <AWizzArd> | So I will have to teach Nix that the standard certs are a dependency for my app. Doesn’t that mean that those certs will *also* be available in my nix-shell? |
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| 12:28:52 | <kuribas> | how do I add a package in a ghci session? |
| 12:29:25 | <hekkaidekapus> | :set -package |
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| 12:30:18 | <maerwald> | AWizzArd: there's a nixos channel |
| 12:30:46 | <AWizzArd> | maerwald: and this is where I just repeated/reframed this question :) |
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| 12:31:36 | <AWizzArd> | maerwald: tho I also would like to hear/read inputs of other Haskellers about how they work with Nix. Is that style "correct"? Do you specify the deps you need, run a nix-shell and from IT then start your ide? |
| 12:31:37 | <kuribas> | hekkaidekapus: thanks, that works :) |
| 12:31:53 | <hekkaidekapus> | o/ |
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| 12:47:57 | hackage | phonetic-languages-ukrainian 0.2.2.0 - Prepares Ukrainian text to be used as a phonetic language text https://hackage.haskell.org/package/phonetic-languages-ukrainian-0.2.2.0 (OleksandrZhabenko) |
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| 12:54:33 | <Unhammer> | anyone using IHP here? I don't understand how to do a nested Include/fetchRelated |
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| 12:56:04 | <Unhammer> | say, in the First Project guide you wanted to add post categories, but show comments on the category index page – can one do something like `Include "comments" (Include "posts" Category)` ? |
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| 13:00:27 | hackage | uniqueness-periods-vector-examples 0.6.1.0 - Examples of usage for the uniqueness-periods-vector series of packages https://hackage.haskell.org/package/uniqueness-periods-vector-examples-0.6.1.0 (OleksandrZhabenko) |
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| 13:10:12 | <maerwald> | is there an easy way to programmatically figure out if a package is on hackage? (preferably via the local index) |
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| 13:12:09 | <Unhammer> | hm, was easier to just define my own view type, e.g. a single category page is |
| 13:12:11 | <Unhammer> | data ShowView = ShowView { posts :: [Include "comments" Post], title :: Text } |
| 13:12:13 | <Unhammer> | and manually make that in ShowCategoryAction |
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| 13:13:37 | <fendor> | maerwald, there is hackage-index https://github.com/haskell-hvr/hackage-index, I *think* that used a local index. |
| 13:14:56 | <maerwald> | fendor: that package isn't on hackage :( |
| 13:15:11 | <int-e> | fendor: yeah looks like it maintains its own local sqlite database |
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| 13:16:26 | <int-e> | maerwald: At a glance, the cabal-install package index format seems to be buried in the client code (Distribution.Solver.Types.PackageIndex) so it's not readily available as a library :-/ |
| 13:16:50 | <int-e> | (Unless somebody took it upon themselves to strip that part out and maintain it as a library.) |
| 13:17:11 | <maerwald> | there's a lot of stuff in cabal-install that should be exposed imo, but well |
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| 13:18:43 | <phadej> | maerwald: yes, see cabal-install-parsers |
| 13:18:52 | <fendor> | indeed. I wish I could parse cabal specification without a Cabal dependency. |
| 13:19:01 | <phadej> | fendor: good luck :) |
| 13:19:41 | <phadej> | (my gut feeling is that over half of code lines in Cabal is related to parsing cabal specification) |
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| 13:20:35 | <fendor> | I know :/ |
| 13:20:58 | <fendor> | (regarding the "good luck wish") |
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| 13:22:48 | <maerwald> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cabal-install-parsers-0.3.0.1/docs/Cabal-Index.html#v:cachedHackageMetadata cool |
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| 13:34:59 | <maerwald> | phadej: when is 3.4 coming out? |
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| 13:37:30 | <kuribas> | is there a pretty runClientM for the REPL? |
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| 13:38:03 | <oats> | it's fun reading "low level" code in, eg, bytestring internals |
| 13:38:19 | <oats> | nice to remember that you can still do black magic with pointers if you really want to :P |
| 13:38:52 | <kuribas> | oats: indeed, what's nice in haskell is that it hides the uglyness |
| 13:39:14 | <kuribas> | but you can still write ugly code underneat |
| 13:40:00 | <oats> | indeed |
| 13:40:20 | <oats> | maybe I should get my hands dirty and put my C skills to use here sometime :P |
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| 13:41:11 | <kuribas> | it's also often used to interface with a low level C library |
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| 13:49:21 | <kuribas> | otherwise I rarely find a need to write low level code in haskell |
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| 13:49:44 | <sooch> | How would one go about representing an Identifier that can be either a single id, or multiple id's combined to form an id |
| 13:51:05 | <sooch> | Ex: S = { ident = 1}; S2 = {ident = 2}; => S <> S2 = { ident (2 3)}; |
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| 13:53:19 | <hekkaidekapus> | sooch: Something like `f {ident = x} {ident = y} = {ident = x <> y}`? |
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| 13:53:44 | <kuribas> | sooch: data Ident = Ident (NonEmpty Int) ? |
| 13:55:04 | <sooch> | The identity can be anything, and is unique. I guess I want a way more like: Ident a = Single a | Multi a (Single a |
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| 13:55:10 | <sooch> | but that seems wrong |
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| 13:55:46 | <kuribas> | data Ident a = Ident (NonEmpty a) |
| 13:55:52 | <phadej> | maerwald: i dont know. around ghc-9 |
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| 13:57:19 | <sooch> | kuribas: I misinterpreted what NonEmpty was at first, that looks promising. Thanks. |
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| 14:20:27 | <AWizzArd> | maerwald: about Servant again: I didn’t try it out yet, but it seems to be able to automatically generate the exact documentation of my API, so the docs will always be relevant and stay up-to-date. |
| 14:21:12 | <hc> | it can even export an up-to-date swagger specification using servant-swagger :) |
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| 14:21:48 | <maerwald> | AWizzArd: you mean swagger? |
| 14:22:04 | <maerwald> | I think about a million backends have support for that? |
| 14:22:32 | <AWizzArd> | maerwald: do you have a link at hand for Snap? |
| 14:22:40 | <maerwald> | not right now |
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| 14:26:08 | <AWizzArd> | hc: what is good about a swagger spec? (never used that tool, but knowing its name) |
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| 14:26:46 | <hc> | AWizzArd: anyone(TM) will know how to use your API |
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| 14:27:19 | <hc> | you could say it is a transformation of the servant API type declaration into a json representation of it that many tools can understand |
| 14:28:03 | <hc> | AWizzArd: have a look at https://editor.swagger.io/ ; I find that a pretty handy tool for looking at swagger specs |
| 14:28:21 | <AWizzArd> | hc: is this tool mostly for web apis? Or completly generic for any api that I may want to design? |
| 14:28:30 | <hc> | it's for REST APIs only afaik |
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| 14:28:42 | <hc> | which arguably aren't tied to the web |
| 14:29:08 | <hc> | but it's not as generic as i.e. apache thrift or the likes |
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| 14:30:52 | <dolio> | oats: You probably don't want to copy the pointer stuff in bytestring, though. The array stuff in primitive is generally better. |
| 14:31:12 | <dolio> | Bytestrings are prone to memory fragmentation. |
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| 14:32:08 | <oats> | hmmm, thanks for the tip |
| 14:32:59 | <dolio> | Also vector builds on primitive in various ways. |
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| 14:55:58 | hackage | lapack 0.3.2 - Numerical Linear Algebra using LAPACK https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lapack-0.3.2 (HenningThielemann) |
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| 14:56:49 | <miguel_clean> | Hello |
| 14:57:33 | <miguel_clean> | I am playing with the "+RTS -p" flag and wonder if I have to wait for my programm to exit or can have it updated in some intervalls as well? |
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| 14:57:57 | <geekosaur> | you have to wait for normal program exit |
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| 14:58:58 | <shad0w_> | hi fam |
| 14:59:00 | Lord_of_Life_ | is now known as Lord_of_Life |
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| 14:59:17 | <shad0w_> | i learned about Aplicatives today |
| 14:59:22 | <shad0w_> | and i have a question |
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| 15:00:05 | <shad0w_> | they seem similar to Functors with the addtinal container type with the f (a -> b) for the first argument |
| 15:00:24 | <shad0w_> | i was wondering, why do they exist ? |
| 15:00:45 | <shad0w_> | we can probably do all of that stuff with fmap |
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| 15:02:11 | <dolio> | Try implementing (<*>) with just fmap. |
| 15:02:17 | <dolio> | Or pure. |
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| 15:07:19 | <sm[m]> | live output from +RTS -p would be great |
| 15:08:15 | <geekosaur> | I think you can do something similar with the eventlog? |
| 15:08:25 | <sm[m]> | hstop myprog |
| 15:09:00 | <sm[m]> | I need to learn about this stuff |
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| 15:11:14 | <geekosaur> | one problem with live profiling is laziness, stuff can be waiting to be evaluated and will be lost even though in some sense it's been seen |
| 15:11:37 | <shad0w_> | dolio: isn't fmap g x = pure g <*> x ? |
| 15:11:56 | <geekosaur> | and only show up later in the run when forced, possibly at the end |
| 15:12:08 | <hololeap> | shad0w_: if you think of a Functor f as carrying with it some kind of "context" or "other information", then Applicative gives a way to lift a value into a "default context" (pure) and combine two of these contexts (<*>) |
| 15:12:49 | <geekosaur> | shad0w, yes, but that means you can recover fmap from pure and <*>, not that you can recover either pure or <*> from fmap |
| 15:13:33 | <shad0w_> | geekosaur: i could just use fmap without ever using pure or <*> can't i? |
| 15:13:35 | <geekosaur> | so Functor is not sufficient to replace Applicative. in fact it's a prerequisite for Applicative, but not enough by itself |
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| 15:14:26 | <geekosaur> | Applicative can do things fmap can't, otherwise we wouldn't have it |
| 15:14:39 | <geekosaur> | for example, you can parse with an Applicative but not with a Functor |
| 15:14:54 | <shad0w_> | that's what i am trying to understand. why does this even exists / |
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| 15:15:21 | <dolio> | How do you implement `(a -> b -> c) -> f a -> f b -> f c` with just fmap? |
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| 15:16:09 | <shad0w_> | you probably can't since fmap :: (a -> b) -> f a -> f b |
| 15:16:15 | <dolio> | Right. |
| 15:16:28 | <shad0w_> | can b == (b -> c ) ? |
| 15:16:35 | <sm[m]> | in the example stats at https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/runtime_control.html#rts-options-to-produce-runtime-statistics, max_bytes_used is 1065272 and peak_megabytes_allocated is 3. How/are those related ? |
| 15:16:37 | <dolio> | It can. |
| 15:16:43 | <shad0w_> | ^ sorry if that sounds stupid |
| 15:16:45 | <dolio> | Then your result is `f (b -> c)`. |
| 15:16:51 | <geekosaur> | but that doesn't help because ... that |
| 15:17:14 | <int-e> | :t (<*>) |
| 15:17:16 | <lambdabot> | Applicative f => f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b |
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| 15:17:32 | <geekosaur> | and now you need Applicative to go any further |
| 15:17:39 | <int-e> | that's the type you need to continue from f (b -> c) |
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| 15:18:30 | <shad0w_> | so, it becomes usefull if your first argument is (a -> b -> c ) ? |
| 15:19:11 | <dolio> | It becomes useful if you have any number other than 1 of your `f` things that you want to do something with. |
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| 15:19:37 | <dolio> | pure lets you build an `f` thing if you have 0. |
| 15:19:40 | <shad0w_> | so you could g <$> x1 <*> x2 ? |
| 15:19:54 | <dolio> | And (<*>) lets you combine two `f` things into one. |
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| 15:20:57 | <shad0w_> | dolio: say i want to add Just 6 and Just 7 |
| 15:21:06 | <shad0w_> | then that's an applicative job ? |
| 15:21:51 | <int-e> | :t liftA2 (+) |
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| 15:21:52 | <lambdabot> | (Applicative f, Num c) => f c -> f c -> f c |
| 15:22:19 | <hololeap> | shad0w_: that's correct |
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| 15:22:33 | <int-e> | @src liftA2 |
| 15:22:33 | <lambdabot> | liftA2 f a b = f <$> a <*> b |
| 15:23:07 | <hololeap> | > (+) <$> Just 6 <*> Just 7 |
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| 15:23:10 | <lambdabot> | Just 13 |
| 15:23:10 | <kuribas> | how do you experiment in ghci with new-style builds? It doesn't let me import libraries (like pretty-simple) |
| 15:23:21 | <hololeap> | > (+) <$> Nothing <*> Just 7 |
| 15:23:24 | <lambdabot> | Nothing |
| 15:24:06 | <kuribas> | is there a way to configure an interactive test environment in the cabal file? |
| 15:24:19 | <shad0w_> | > (\x y z -> x + y +z) <$> Just 1 <*> Just 2 <*> Just 3 |
| 15:24:21 | <lambdabot> | Just 6 |
| 15:24:32 | <shad0w_> | ^Thanks bot |
| 15:24:44 | <sm[m]> | isn't new-style a confusing term at this point |
| 15:24:45 | <shad0w_> | i kindda get it now. |
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| 15:24:55 | <shad0w_> | thanks guys : D |
| 15:24:56 | <sm[m]> | kuribas: cabal repl doesn't work ? |
| 15:25:14 | <kuribas> | sm[m]: it doesn't let me import packages outside of the project |
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| 15:25:25 | <hololeap> | shad0w_: look up and read typeclassopedia for more details |
| 15:25:38 | <shad0w_> | i am reading that |
| 15:25:38 | <hololeap> | when you're ready |
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| 15:25:45 | <kuribas> | sm[m]: well in ghci it works... |
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| 15:25:52 | <sm[m]> | kuribas: ah, that's normal. Perhaps you can bring in more by using a -package option |
| 15:26:30 | <kuribas> | sm[m]: I just want to make a temporary test.hs file for quick testing and reloading into ghci |
| 15:26:38 | <sm[m]> | if cabal doesn't have that option itself, then maybe cabal repl --ghc-options='-package A -package B' |
| 15:26:59 | <kuribas> | sm[m]: so I don't need to retype some commands every reload |
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| 15:27:44 | <sm[m]> | right, I did that the other day. I think I used stack --package A exec -- ghci test.hs or something |
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| 15:28:11 | <sm[m]> | so maybe cabal exec is the way, since test.hs isn't a component of the projec |
| 15:28:12 | <sm[m]> | t |
| 15:28:12 | <kuribas> | hmm, I'll try that |
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| 15:29:17 | <kuribas> | can I do :r with that? |
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| 15:33:28 | <sm[m]> | kuribas: how do you mean ? |
| 15:33:55 | <kuribas> | reload |
| 15:33:58 | <kuribas> | in ghci |
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| 15:37:47 | <fendor_> | kuribas, `cabal repl -b A -b B` should work. |
| 15:38:35 | <kuribas> | cabal new-repl -b /tmp/test.hs => couldn't parse dependency: /tmp/test.hs |
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| 15:38:59 | <fendor_> | kuribas, A is the dependency |
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| 15:39:18 | <fendor_> | such as aeson or pretty-simple |
| 15:39:24 | <kuribas> | right... |
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| 15:39:37 | <kuribas> | how do I load a /file |
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| 15:40:13 | <fendor_> | ":l /path/to/file" |
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| 15:40:27 | <fendor_> | within ghci? |
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| 15:42:01 | <kuribas> | right :) |
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| 15:42:38 | <kuribas> | now only convincing emacs to pass these arguments to cabal repl... |
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| 15:44:38 | <sm[m]> | this nothunks lib from the cardano team sounds fantastic |
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| 15:53:28 | <sm[m]> | speaking of which, another q. I have a program where +RTS -S prints out unchanging numbers. I think this means it's running with constant heap ? |
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| 15:55:11 | <sm[m]> | and the overall statistics printed at the end look reasonable. Meanwhile, I can see it's Memory steadily increasing without limit in macos Activity Monitor. Does that mean it is leaking thunks and the stack is growing ? and the RTS stats don't show that ? |
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| 15:56:47 | <sm[m]> | and this program uses SDL, in case it's relevant |
| 15:57:09 | <sm[m]> | maybe I'm leaking foreign C memory, not haskell memory ? |
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| 16:56:20 | <cohn> | can anyone recommend a good command line argument processing library? |
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| 16:57:37 | <frdg> | how can I use stack to compile binaries? |
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| 16:58:09 | <dsal> | frdg: stack build |
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| 16:58:41 | <dsal> | cohn: I usually just use optparse-applicative, but depending on what your needs are, there are easier or fancier things. |
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| 16:59:05 | <cohn> | dsal: easy is always good. I'll take a look, thanks! |
| 17:00:07 | <dsal> | cohn: There's this thing, but I've not used it because I always end up doing something a little weird: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/optparse-generic-1.4.3/docs/Options-Generic.html |
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| 17:01:32 | <frdg> | dsal: ok that is what I thought. I have been running stack build but only get this ouput: https://dpaste.org/YDpW. Where do the binaries go? |
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| 17:03:38 | <dsal> | stack path --local-install-root |
| 17:03:41 | <dsal> | Or you can just 'stack install' |
| 17:04:11 | <dsal> | That warning is kind of interesting, though. It implies you've modified a generated .cabal and you've probably got some confusion there. |
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| 17:10:42 | <frdg> | dsal: stack install worked. No idea how I have managed to mess the cabal file up. |
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| 17:11:18 | <dsal> | The instructions suggest you could just delete it. If you have package.yaml and the .cabal, that's going to be confusing. |
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| 17:11:56 | <fluturel> | hello? |
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| 17:12:11 | <yushyin> | hello fluturel |
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| 17:13:03 | <fluturel> | so i just learning haskell a few minutes ago. Don't have any questions yet, just wanted to see if the channel is still active |
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| 17:14:43 | <yushyin> | actually it is one of the more active channels on freenode |
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| 17:14:57 | hackage | prolude 0.0.0.0 - ITProTV's custom prelude https://hackage.haskell.org/package/prolude-0.0.0.0 (fozworth) |
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| 17:15:40 | <fluturel> | is my understanding correct that i can execute little haskell programs right here in the chat? |
| 17:15:52 | <dsal> | No, but there are a couple of bots that can evaluate expressions. |
| 17:16:17 | <fluturel> | how would one go about doing that? |
| 17:16:21 | <dsal> | You can speak to those bots privately if you want to try to use them as a repl, but ghci will be a lot better. |
| 17:16:54 | <dsal> | > length . words $ "this is lambdabot" |
| 17:16:58 | <lambdabot> | 3 |
| 17:17:07 | <dsal> | % length . words $ "this is yahb" |
| 17:17:08 | <yahb> | dsal: 3 |
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| 17:17:40 | <fluturel> | ooh, that's interesting |
| 17:17:42 | <dsal> | They're different, but helpful for demonstrating basic ideas. |
| 17:17:43 | <fluturel> | thank you |
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| 17:18:12 | <dsal> | Both will be terribly frustrating if you try to use them as ghci. ghci will be terribly frustrating if you try to use it as a scratch pad. |
| 17:18:44 | <fluturel> | i will certainly come back here, should i need help (i most certainly will). Coming from |
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| 17:19:06 | <fluturel> | Coming from C++ and the like, i heards it can be pretty brutal |
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| 17:19:30 | <dsal> | Haskell is pretty easy. Haskell with a brain conditioned on C++ might be hard. |
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| 17:20:17 | <fluturel> | I do have some experience with Common LISP, but I dont know if that is considered functional nowadays |
| 17:21:11 | <dsal> | It's not even so much the "functional" bits. It's just a different language with different conventions (including calling conventions), culture, etc... |
| 17:22:11 | <dsal> | Things that might be important for optimizing or organizing C++ code could be hugely detrimental to your Haskell experience and lead down dark paths. |
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| 17:22:15 | <ski> | fluturel : just lurking in here can also be pretty useful, when learning |
| 17:22:18 | <dsal> | fluturel: How are you going about learning haskell? |
| 17:22:43 | <dsal> | Yeah, one neat thing about lurking is that you'll get exposed to a lot of things you hadn't considered. |
| 17:23:00 | <fluturel> | like using guards as ifs and such? |
| 17:23:27 | <dsal> | Just general structure (though I almost never use 'if' in any of my code). |
| 17:24:26 | <fluturel> | well, i got a book that has most of the language features. It's more like a doc than anything else. And also, some tutorials that I found. I am starting with learnyouahaskell.com |
| 17:24:31 | <ski> | fluturel : you will learn to use recursion for looping, pattern-matching for destructuring and branching, learn to program (mostly/usually) without mutable variables, get access to a nice, flexible, powerful, static type system |
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| 17:25:02 | <ski> | fluturel : oh, and higher-order programming, with lexical scope |
| 17:25:43 | <ski> | @where CIS194 |
| 17:25:43 | <lambdabot> | https://www.seas.upenn.edu/~cis194/spring13/lectures.html |
| 17:26:02 | <fluturel> | ski : i know what most of the things you said are. No idea about pattern-matching, sounds like you are talking about regex |
| 17:26:05 | <ski> | fluturel : that ^ has exercises, if you want some to chew on (LYAH doesn't have any) |
| 17:26:29 | <fluturel> | Oh, thank you so much, just bookmarked it! |
| 17:27:04 | <ski> | fluturel : have you used `destructuring-bind', in CL ? |
| 17:27:16 | <fluturel> | Yes |
| 17:27:40 | <fluturel> | So it's like that |
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| 17:27:41 | <ski> | well, pattern-matching is like that, "only more so", also incorporates branching on the possible shapes a piece of datum may assume |
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| 17:28:21 | <dsal> | You can define different expressions for functions based on the value of their arguments, for example. |
| 17:28:32 | <ski> | @src length |
| 17:28:32 | <lambdabot> | Source not found. Where did you learn to type? |
| 17:28:41 | <ski> | hmpf |
| 17:28:48 | <ski> | length :: [a] -> Int |
| 17:28:52 | <ski> | length [ ] = 0 |
| 17:29:00 | <ski> | length (x:xs) = 1 + length xs |
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| 17:29:24 | <ski> | is the traditional way to define the length of a (single-linked) list |
| 17:29:47 | <ski> | `x:xs' there is like a "dotted pair/cons", in the Lisp world. and `[]' is the empty list |
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| 17:30:21 | <fluturel> | ah, i see, so it's recursion |
| 17:30:24 | <ski> | so, `length' is defined via "two definitions" (two defining equations), each handling one of the two possible cases (empty vs. non-empty list) |
| 17:30:32 | <ski> | yes |
| 17:30:35 | <dsal> | recursion isn't the interesting part of that example, though. |
| 17:30:38 | <fluturel> | xs is the remainder of the list and evaluates till xs is empty list |
| 17:30:52 | <fluturel> | yeah, no, i got that |
| 17:31:07 | <monochrom> | The point is we don't write like "length list = if null list then 0 else 1 + tail list" |
| 17:31:14 | <ski> | but you can use this style of definition as well, for your own, user-defined, data types |
| 17:31:22 | <fluturel> | And what you said about destructuring-bind being close to this, it does make a lot of sense |
| 17:31:24 | <dsal> | > let isThree 3 = True; isThree _ = False in map isThree [1..5] |
| 17:31:28 | <lambdabot> | [False,False,True,False,False] |
| 17:31:44 | <ski> | s/tail list/length (tail list)/ |
| 17:31:50 | <dsal> | I have two different definitions of isThree that do different things depending on the value of the argument. |
| 17:31:56 | <albestro[m]> | fluturel: I'm studying in parallel both CIS194 2013 and LYAH...for CIS194 I found useful from time to time to compare my solution with the one from the students who attended the course. you can find few of them on github |
| 17:32:58 | <fluturel> | albestro[m]: thank you for the suggestion |
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| 17:33:31 | <fluturel> | albestro[m]: how long have you been studying for? |
| 17:34:16 | <albestro[m]> | fluturel: I started during holidays (1 week of spare time) and in the last weeks I had few time to dedicate...but let's say 1 month on the calendar |
| 17:34:34 | <cohn> | albestro[m]: beware, some of LYAH is out of date. For example no coverage of Semigroups |
| 17:34:42 | <cohn> | other than that, great resource |
| 17:35:02 | <albestro[m]> | cohn: thanks! it's absolutely worth knowing. |
| 17:35:47 | <albestro[m]> | also about CIS194, I preferred the 2013 version because it feels like it is more dedicated to the "low-level' |
| 17:36:12 | <albestro[m]> | compared to the newer one that it seems like they are trying to be "more interesting" with visual things |
| 17:36:26 | cohn | shrugs |
| 17:36:43 | <cohn> | I don't know enough to have an opinion either way. : ) |
| 17:37:05 | <sm[m]> | fluturel, also good: |
| 17:37:05 | <sm[m]> | @where HTAC |
| 17:37:05 | <lambdabot> | "Haskell Tutorial and Cookbook" by Mark Watson in 2017-09-04 at <https://leanpub.com/haskell-cookbook> |
| 17:37:12 | ski | grins |
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| 17:37:42 | <sm[m]> | ski, you saw that coming ? :) |
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| 17:37:55 | <ski> | was briefly thinking about it |
| 17:38:10 | <fluturel> | sm[m]: i found it during my searches, but thank you, will be in my priority list |
| 17:38:37 | <ski> | fluturel : at some point, you may find yourself wanting a textbook |
| 17:38:55 | <fluturel> | i should have taken haskell up while in lockdown.. |
| 17:39:20 | <sm[m]> | that guy is not paying me, I promise. I just think it's among the best for many folk, and still mysteriously unknown, so I am duty bound to mention it |
| 17:40:54 | <dsal> | fluturel: Everything I've ever learned felt like I learned it too late. |
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| 17:42:02 | <fluturel> | dsal: I know exactly what you mean. If only i learned more when i had loads of free time.. |
| 17:43:28 | <sm[m]> | no time like the present |
| 17:44:26 | <fluturel> | i have another question: what can you do with haskell these days? Is it just a niche programming language? |
| 17:44:43 | <dsal> | fluturel: Here's a project I did recently: http://dustin.sallings.org/2020/04/29/gopro-plus.html |
| 17:44:50 | <dsal> | I fail to write up most of the things I do. *sigh* |
| 17:44:53 | <sm[m]> | ha, leading question there |
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| 17:46:24 | <fluturel> | sm[m]: sorry if it is, should have phrased it a little bit differently |
| 17:46:36 | <dsal> | I sat down to do some "hard" work on that project a couple of nights ago -- resuming partial uploads that failed exactly at the wrong moment where all the bits have been updated but the media wasn't marked completed on GoPro's side. Turns out, it was just a couple lines of code to cover that case. :( |
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| 17:46:55 | <monochrom> | It would be easier to enumerate just the handful of things Haskell is impractical for. |
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| 17:47:14 | <dsal> | fluturel: Nah, Haskell has a reputation of being a weird experimental language for academics. In practice, it's the easiest language I use and the first thing I reach for when I'm doing general computering. |
| 17:47:16 | <sm[m]> | fluturel: anything that doesn't require zero GC pauses, or cheap developers, or running on mobile |
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| 17:47:58 | <dsal> | "running on mobile" is a little unfortunate. Some of my programs are running on tiny ARM computers. |
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| 17:48:23 | <sm[m]> | cool, I should say "running on phones" maybe |
| 17:48:26 | <nshepperd> | haskell is a programming language so easy, even academics can use it! |
| 17:48:29 | <monochrom> | And even those divide into fundamentally impractical vs for-now impractical. |
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| 17:49:48 | <dsal> | Yeah, it's more about outward requirements. If something has to be written using particular APIs that aren't accessible, then it's not exactly a "Haskell" problem as much as "you're not using the exact language allowed to work with this platform" problem. |
| 17:50:06 | <fluturel> | i thought i read something a few years ago about a company that was making games in haskell for mobile. Can't remember the name though |
| 17:50:16 | <sm[m]> | Keera, they stopped |
| 17:50:45 | <sm[m]> | as far as I know, at least |
| 17:51:24 | <sm[m]> | so yes it is possible to run haskell somehow on phones, but I'd say it's impractical except for the very highly motivated |
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| 17:51:34 | <sm[m]> | for now |
| 17:52:00 | <dsal> | fluturel: A better way to think about this is to think about the types of programs you're interested in writing and whether it'll help you with that. |
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| 17:52:22 | <geekosaur> | and it's not so much that Haskell doesn't work well, as GHC doesn't work well — but for now at least GHC is the only real option |
| 17:52:28 | <geekosaur> | (I miss jhc still) |
| 17:52:35 | <fluturel> | i was thinking about trying to do a back-end or something in haskell |
| 17:52:57 | <dsal> | Most of my programs are IoT or general commandline utilities or monitoring, stats, etc... And my GoPro junk. And various data processing things. All of that stuff is easy. |
| 17:53:25 | <dolio> | I don't know. Nothing ever worked as well as GHC anyway for most stuff. |
| 17:53:48 | <dsal> | Damn you GHC. Stop making everything else look bad. |
| 17:54:19 | <monochrom> | @quote monochrom downloaded.GHC |
| 17:54:20 | <lambdabot> | monochrom says: I was trying to design a sensible language... then I downloaded ghc. |
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| 17:54:25 | <geekosaur> | hugs worked pretty well back in the day. but ghc has been alone for so long that other implementations now have to catch up to it as well as implementing standard Haskell :( |
| 17:54:37 | <sm[m]> | but of course GHC makes a lot of other stuff look really good |
| 17:54:39 | <dsal> | The GHC language is kind of big. |
| 17:54:57 | <dsal> | Heh, yeah. I didn't mean to imply GHC is great at all the things. It's a frustrating part of some of mydays. |
| 17:54:57 | <dolio> | Hugs worked, but the stuff people used it for wasn't building applications that GHC is unsuitable for. |
| 17:55:04 | <dolio> | To my knowledge. |
| 17:55:21 | <monochrom> | Actually I think I started with hugs back then, and added GHC later. |
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| 17:55:43 | <geekosaur> | people have at least tried to resuscitate it for use on limited memory platforms iirc |
| 17:56:32 | <nshepperd> | i wish for a ghc which can produce platform independent STG |
| 17:56:53 | <nshepperd> | so i can just write an STG interpreter in java to make things run on phones :> |
| 17:57:12 | <fluturel> | IoT with haskell actually sounds really interesting |
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| 17:58:10 | <davean> | Theres the ghci bytecode? I don't know a ton about it. Bytecode isn't really enough - you need the RTS. |
| 17:58:31 | <monochrom> | "just write an STG interpreter" is also easier said than done. |
| 17:59:05 | <davean> | And why you'd do all that to run Haskell on a phone I don't know |
| 17:59:09 | <davean> | You CAN compile to target a phone |
| 17:59:19 | <davean> | a lot of the hard part is the PDK component |
| 17:59:41 | <monochrom> | which is also what davean said and I had in mind. Interpeter or compiler, you need an RTS or equivalent that does all the amazing multi-green-threading and I/O multiplexing and... |
| 17:59:59 | <dolio> | What happened to the GHC fork that ran on JVM? |
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| 18:00:18 | <davean> | dolio: which one? eta? |
| 18:00:22 | <davean> | There were a few |
| 18:00:41 | <dolio> | Were there? I was thinking of eta, I think. |
| 18:00:58 | hackage | polysemy-test 0.3.0.0 - Polysemy effects for testing https://hackage.haskell.org/package/polysemy-test-0.3.0.0 (tek) |
| 18:01:19 | <dolio> | Running STG on JVM seems non-trivial anyway, because of the 'fixing space leaks in a garbage collector' thing that the JVM's garbage collector won't be doing. |
| 18:01:32 | <monochrom> | But consider translating hugs from C to Java. :) |
| 18:01:48 | <nshepperd> | dolio: what's that |
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| 18:02:28 | <dolio> | nshepperd: It's the title of a paper by Wadler, I think. |
| 18:02:36 | <monochrom> | <bad pun time> eta has an ETA of "indefinite" </bad pun time> :) |
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| 18:04:48 | <phadej> | nshepperd: TL;DR when GC find a value which is fst (a, b); i.e. selector applied to already evaluated constructor, it evaluates it |
| 18:05:04 | <phadej> | thus `b` could be possibly freed |
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| 18:08:58 | hackage | polysemy-test 0.3.0.1 - Polysemy effects for testing https://hackage.haskell.org/package/polysemy-test-0.3.0.1 (tek) |
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| 18:10:41 | <phadej> | I *guess* if JVM had native notion of thunks, its GCs would do that optimization |
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| 18:12:26 | <nshepperd> | interesting |
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| 18:14:34 | <dsal> | Is polysemy still a thing? |
| 18:14:34 | <davean> | the 'eta' idea was to use the RTTI/Debugging support to do that optimization, right? |
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| 18:16:15 | <phadej> | davean: I don't know |
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| 18:18:52 | <pie_> | man I dont know if parser combinators are hard to debug or just parsy as a python parser combinator library... |
| 18:19:02 | <pie_> | i make prgress and get stuck on some self induced bug for hours |
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| 18:23:28 | hackage | wai-session-postgresql 0.2.1.3 - PostgreSQL backed Wai session store https://hackage.haskell.org/package/wai-session-postgresql-0.2.1.3 (hc) |
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| 18:26:25 | <nshepperd> | was your problem too much backtracking or not enough backtracking |
| 18:26:46 | <monochrom> | I think parser combinators are harder to debug (than ordinary recursive functions). I tried to add Debug.Trace messages, and quickly realized I couldn't design useful debugging messages. |
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| 18:36:25 | <sm[m]> | I have a dbgparse function that I stick into megaparsec parsers. megaparsec itself provides a dbg, also. Such things are definitely needed at times |
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| 19:03:00 | <glguy> | parser combinators turn you into the parser compiler. using them for more than simple parsers generates debugging challenges and makes it hard to know what the grammar you actually support is |
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| 19:13:38 | <pie_> | the problem i run into a lot is i dont know which piece of code is causing the error |
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| 19:13:45 | <pie_> | i also have no idea when backtracking triggers :P |
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| 19:14:21 | <pie_> | though my code so far afaik doesnt have any deliberate backtracking, so if backtracking happens its probably by mistake |
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| 19:16:44 | Lycurgus | had to look at the log, backtracking in hs sounded funny |
| 19:16:57 | <hyperisco> | combinators are supposed to be syntactically relatable to grammar notation like BNF |
| 19:17:10 | <hyperisco> | so you are supposed to be able to understand the grammar that way |
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| 19:17:35 | <ski> | (some familiarity with Prolog, and perhaps in particular DCG, might help) |
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| 19:18:04 | <hyperisco> | the complication is to watch out for restricted grammar classes (most combinators do not support all CFG) |
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| 19:18:59 | <hyperisco> | I'd just use combinators that do support all CFG if confusion is the main problem |
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| 19:22:48 | <pie_> | im parsing some text file generated by some government land office program |
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| 19:22:58 | <pie_> | its not exactly parsing friendly but i havent seen any specs either so |
| 19:23:34 | Lycurgus | guesses that most hs parser things are ll or lr without backtracking |
| 19:23:34 | <pie_> | but yeah its not like i have some grammar to code against |
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| 19:34:56 | <sm[m]> | pie_: you need one of those debug functions I mentioned |
| 19:35:18 | <sm[m]> | glguy that's an interesting observation |
| 19:35:27 | <hyperisco> | pie_, if you suspect it is realisable as a CFG then I |
| 19:35:32 | <hyperisco> | 'd start there on paper |
| 19:35:44 | <hyperisco> | and only after succeeding with that worry about the program |
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| 19:36:52 | <hyperisco> | some combinators instance Monad and can parse some grammars outside CFG |
| 19:37:16 | <hyperisco> | I think best to know the nature of what you're dealing with first |
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| 19:39:11 | <sm[m]> | pie_: maybe those functions won't work for you but it's worth building one, along the lines of https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hledger-lib-1.19.1/docs/Hledger-Utils-Debug.html#v:traceParse |
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| 19:39:56 | <sm[m]> | hyperisco: very true |
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| 19:40:48 | <frdg> | how does stack decide which version of ghc to use? I use ghcup. I would like the default ghc to be 8.8.3. |
| 19:41:07 | <frdg> | ghc --version returns a different ghc than 8.8.3 |
| 19:41:17 | <glguy> | stack and ghcup are different things |
| 19:42:09 | <frdg> | so different stack versions use different ghc's ? |
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| 19:42:12 | <geekosaur> | stack installs its own ghc based on the selected/current resolver, and by default ignores any ghc from a different source |
| 19:42:23 | <sm[m]> | By the resolver in the nearest stack.yaml |
| 19:42:57 | hackage | bugsnag-hs 0.2.0.0 - A Bugsnag client for Haskell. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bugsnag-hs-0.2.0.0 (JasperWoudenberg) |
| 19:43:11 | <geekosaur> | a differet stack release will probably default to a different resolver, but this can be configured by editing a stack.yaml somewhere (either in the current project, or a global default one) |
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| 19:43:43 | <frdg> | oh ok. Now to my next question. How can I change my stack version from 2.3.3 to 2.4? |
| 19:44:26 | <sm[m]> | after that is released, stack upgrade (is one way) |
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| 19:45:34 | <phadej> | weird, I just noticed that stack-2.5 prerelease was tagged |
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| 19:45:41 | <phadej> | I wonder what happened to 2.4 (well, not really) |
| 19:45:50 | <phadej> | https://github.com/commercialhaskell/stack/releases/tag/v2.5.0.1 |
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| 19:46:02 | <frdg> | really? I have two machines. On one machine stack --version returns 2.4? When I run stack upgrade both machines say it is the most recent version. |
| 19:46:59 | <phadej> | or hmm. does stack use odd-even numbering (and oddly, with even numbers being development ones) |
| 19:47:16 | <phadej> | i.e. stack-2.4 is some development version? |
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| 19:49:35 | <sm[m]> | phadej: strange.. they haven't used that numbering |
| 19:50:24 | <sm[m]> | but I'm glad of the 5125 fix, that will speed up CI builds |
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| 19:50:45 | <sm[m]> | frdg: stranger still |
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| 19:51:02 | <phadej> | sm[m]: there weren't 2.2 either |
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| 19:51:51 | <sm[m]> | they only release unstable versions ? :) |
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| 19:52:19 | <frdg> | `Version 2.4.0, Git revision 1b1bed5b84b3aed76cf27b02cadd46d09efc611f PRE-RELEASE x86_64 hpack-0.33.0` It does say pre-release I guess? |
| 19:52:44 | <frdg> | everything is working regardless though so I am pretty happy. |
| 19:53:10 | <sm[m]> | ah, well that makes more sense. They must have changed their mind |
| 19:53:40 | <sm[m]> | or it's a dev version numbering scheme like phade said |
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| 19:54:19 | <sm[m]> | a wrong one |
| 19:55:18 | <sm[m]> | though .0 releases are usually unstable so I suppose it's fair.. |
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| 19:56:14 | <int-e> | If 2.0 is a stable release then what version number do you use for the development release leadung up to it? I've seen things like 1.99 and it's ugly. |
| 19:56:47 | <sm[m]> | Ha that's my scheme. It's find it ok |
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| 19:56:53 | <sm[m]> | I find it |
| 19:57:19 | <sm[m]> | It's forced on me by cabal |
| 19:57:26 | × | mu quits (~mu@unaffiliated/mu) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 19:57:27 | <int-e> | Anyway, that's a reason for using odd numbers for stable releases. |
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| 20:01:28 | pie_ | looks at sm[m]'s link |
| 20:02:05 | <int-e> | You could also skip over 2.0, I guess... |
| 20:02:20 | <int-e> | Or paint a bikeshed. |
| 20:02:45 | <pie_> | i think i kind of have somethign like that |
| 20:03:16 | <sm[m]> | pie_: and here's the other, maybe it's better ? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/megaparsec-9.0.0/docs/Text-Megaparsec-Debug.html |
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| 20:03:19 | <pie_> | re: the problem is most of the time i dont know which piece of my code is causing the error (and then i bisect or whatever and still dont get why its breaking where its breaking xD) |
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| 20:03:46 | <pie_> | maybe i just dont understand the library well enough |
| 20:03:48 | <pie_> | :I |
| 20:03:56 | <sm[m]> | that's why you have to sprinkle loads of these, with different labels |
| 20:04:01 | <pie_> | guess i should learn a different style of parser writing |
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| 20:05:10 | <sm[m]> | if you look at hledger parsers you'll see lots of these, perhaps commented out.. and if debugging I'll often add more |
| 20:05:18 | <pie_> | *nid* |
| 20:05:21 | <pie_> | *nod* |
| 20:05:38 | <pie_> | there has got to be a better way of doing this |
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| 20:06:32 | <sm[m]> | I'm not sure what it is, other than use a parser generator |
| 20:07:03 | <sm[m]> | extensive fine grained tests are also helpful, and tedious |
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| 20:07:40 | <pie_> | *nod* |
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| 20:08:59 | <sm[m]> | Interactive testing in ghci, too |
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| 20:11:14 | <sm[m]> | and I suppose being disciplined and consistent, eg in how you handle whitespace, reducing the number of ways to screw up. A lexing phase should help with that but adds complexity too |
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| 20:11:55 | <pie_> | do people have to do this for other parser styles? |
| 20:12:22 | <sm[m]> | but when it's just..not..working you must have a technique to drill in and get visibility on what's happening |
| 20:12:40 | sm[m] | doesn't know |
| 20:12:42 | <pie_> | dont get me wrong i like combinators on some level, and they seem intuitive, except its not going well xD |
| 20:12:55 | <archaephyrryx> | what parser library is this? |
| 20:13:06 | <pie_> | parsy in python, its quite decent |
| 20:13:12 | <pie_> | one could even say good |
| 20:13:18 | <pie_> | but i dont have anything to compare agaisnt really |
| 20:14:10 | <archaephyrryx> | i joined mid-conversation, but I have a bit of experience using (and even writing to a limited extent) parser combinators in Haskell |
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| 20:14:15 | <archaephyrryx> | what is the issue? |
| 20:14:52 | <pie_> | it works and then i hit a snag and get stuck for hurs |
| 20:14:55 | <pie_> | hours |
| 20:14:59 | <archaephyrryx> | what does? |
| 20:15:00 | <pie_> | generally hard to debug |
| 20:15:06 | <sm[m]> | can you see the log, archaephyrryx? |
| 20:15:23 | <pie_> | writing parser combinators is hard to debug (for me) |
| 20:15:52 | <pie_> | also tbh i shouldnt have to write print statements everywhere, it shuld be possible to point to something and figure out wtf is going on there |
| 20:16:02 | <pie_> | but im not sure what kind of tooling would need to be in the library for that |
| 20:16:04 | <archaephyrryx> | have you looked into HasCallStack |
| 20:16:42 | <pie_> | i havent had much luck with making sense of whats going on using the pycharm debugger, though maybe i didnt try hard enough |
| 20:16:51 | <archaephyrryx> | don't have much experience using it personally but it seems useful for tracing bugs in deeply nested calls |
| 20:16:57 | <sm[m]> | pie_: it's actually fine, I may have overstated. Often putting the trace in one likely place will give you the insight to fix it |
| 20:17:14 | <sm[m]> | and it's quick to do via ghci |
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| 20:17:59 | <pie_> | sm[m]: i can do something like .map(debug) in a parser chain where debug is def debug(x): print(x); return x |
| 20:18:17 | <pie_> | its helped but i have to turn it off and on (which you mentioned) and doesnt fix everything |
| 20:18:25 | <sm[m]> | but.. I'm slowly realizing that you're adking for help with something quite different from what I'm talking about |
| 20:18:26 | <pie_> | hm i guess i should add showing parser state to that somehow |
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| 20:19:04 | <pie_> | i mean, theres libary specifics but there should be general approaches amenable to the design of monadic combinators in general i think |
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| 20:19:56 | <archaephyrryx> | can't figure out how to view the log sm[m] |
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| 20:20:23 | <sm[m]> | Yes; that was the point of my first reply to you. You need a specialized trace helper that prints the parser state - what text it's looking at etc. |
| 20:20:36 | <pie_> | *nod* |
| 20:21:04 | <sm[m]> | ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com archaephyrryx |
| 20:21:04 | <pie_> | so, do you think theres a way to integrate the tracer so you dont have to manually add calls if you need them? |
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| 20:21:31 | <sm[m]> | certainly, in the parser engine, why not |
| 20:21:31 | <pie_> | well i guess that comes down to wrapping every function |
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| 20:21:56 | <sm[m]> | The challenge is not being so verbose that you can't read it |
| 20:22:01 | <pie_> | i guess parser combinators dont really have an engine? isnt it just a style of signatures? |
| 20:22:06 | <pie_> | yeah |
| 20:22:41 | <sm[m]> | I have assigned priorities to trace statements so I could filter by level |
| 20:23:32 | <pie_> | maybe something you could to is tell it to trace between sections of the text |
| 20:23:36 | <pie_> | so from char x to char y |
| 20:23:43 | <sm[m]> | I don't know about your python lib. Haskell parser combinators run via a parser engine |
| 20:23:57 | <pie_> | ok |
| 20:23:57 | <sm[m]> | sounds good |
| 20:24:08 | <sm[m]> | There is a lot of room for better tooling here |
| 20:24:33 | <pie_> | ive googled stuff like "debuggign parser combinators" in the past but i never really saw anything relevan |
| 20:24:35 | <pie_> | t |
| 20:24:51 | <pie_> | doesnt mean it doesnt exist but i didnt find the right people or material... |
| 20:25:04 | <pie_> | people dont seem to design for introspectability much |
| 20:25:23 | <pie_> | i feel like im the idiot though, idk |
| 20:25:43 | <sm[m]> | I have built some complex parsers with combinators but perhaps it's a thing people don't do much |
| 20:25:56 | <pie_> | you seem to have managed |
| 20:26:07 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 20:26:14 | <archaephyrryx> | have you tried copying the source code and running it yourself with modifications to enhance debuggability |
| 20:26:36 | <pie_> | the parser im building doesnt seem horribly complex. ok maybe its not simple, im not sure, what i need to do is decompose it into small iterative steps so i can manage it |
| 20:26:42 | <sm[m]> | yes, by making debug tools.. and still with a lot of labour. Otherwise, it was impossible |
| 20:27:16 | <phadej> | running your parser on smaller inputs and verifying that things which you think should be accepted are actualyl accepted |
| 20:27:22 | <pie_> | the part i started making progress was when i finally figured out how to use bind in the library xD and decompose the large text into some major sections |
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| 20:27:33 | <phadej> | I see often that person writes 1000 lines of code, *and* then tries to run it for the first time |
| 20:27:37 | <phadej> | don't be that person |
| 20:27:37 | <pie_> | yeah |
| 20:27:50 | <pie_> | i still do that sometimes despite knowing better - not to that extent though |
| 20:27:57 | <pie_> | it helps to have automated tests |
| 20:28:00 | <sm[m]> | right.. fine grained tests of smaller pieces as mentioned. All of the techniques are needed and complementary |
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| 20:28:04 | <pie_> | but for a while i didnt even know what to test |
| 20:28:40 | <pie_> | actually, the zeroth big step to actually making progress was writing code to test my parser on the corpus i have instead of f***ing with testing on soem files manually |
| 20:28:52 | <pie_> | i should learn how to use some python test framework... |
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| 20:29:20 | <pie_> | the reason i havent written unit tests was id have to figure out what sections of the corpus to even be copy pasting into separate test cases... |
| 20:29:29 | <pie_> | its kind of a back and forth thing with too many iterations |
| 20:29:32 | <sm[m]> | Fuzz/property tests should be quite useful too but I haven't done it |
| 20:30:00 | <archaephyrryx> | *slowly realizing we are talking about python and not haskell* ...I can't really contribute as much as I thought I could |
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| 20:30:18 | <pie_> | archaephyrryx: :P as ive been saying several times i think, but thats a technicality |
| 20:30:33 | <pie_> | ok i should go try to write soem more code and see if i can say anything more |
| 20:31:55 | <archaephyrryx> | on an unrelated note, I was wondering whether anyone had any opinions about a particular stylistic choice in writing haskell |
| 20:32:04 | <sm[m]> | if all else fails, ship it to users and accept pull requests ? |
| 20:32:19 | <sm[m]> | Just kidding |
| 20:32:38 | <pie_> | haha |
| 20:33:08 | <archaephyrryx> | when writing a function whose LHS has one fewer variable binding than it is ever called with (f :: a -> b -> c; f x = ...) |
| 20:33:09 | <sm[m]> | archaephyrryx: nope. Opinions on style ? Never seen that |
| 20:34:13 | <archaephyrryx> | is it appropriate to write the RHS using `$` to obviate nested parentheses when the implicit missing argument would necessitate parentheticals |
| 20:34:40 | <pie_> | Wow I completely forgot I ran into this issue before... https://github.com/python-parsy/parsy/issues/34 :/ |
| 20:34:48 | <sm[m]> | I lied. There's a dozen dueling haskell formatting tools and style guides |
| 20:35:38 | <archaephyrryx> | e.g.: f x {- implicit y -} = g $ h $ x |
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| 20:35:59 | <archaephyrryx> | rather than |
| 20:36:16 | <archaephyrryx> | f x {- implicit y -} = g (h x) {- implicit y -} |
| 20:36:34 | <archaephyrryx> | any thoughts? |
| 20:36:51 | <sm[m]> | f = g . h is often seen |
| 20:36:53 | <dolio> | I would probably never write `g $ h $ x`. |
| 20:37:06 | <archaephyrryx> | i am not writing the actual code |
| 20:37:14 | <archaephyrryx> | this is a contrived abstraction |
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| 20:37:50 | <archaephyrryx> | it really looks more like |
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| 20:38:27 | hackage | cryptocompare 0.1.2 - Haskell wrapper for the cryptocompare API https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cryptocompare-0.1.2 (aviaviavi) |
| 20:38:29 | <archaephyrryx> | func1 arg1 = doWork $ func2 $ func3 arg1 |
| 20:39:08 | <archaephyrryx> | where there is an extra implicit argument that lacks a binding in the actual definition |
| 20:39:46 | <dolio> | That's also `doWork . func2 . func3`. |
| 20:40:17 | <archaephyrryx> | the first binding has a strictness annotation (!) so that isn't viable |
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| 20:40:56 | <glguy> | too late, you left that out of your simplified problem code, so you don't get to use it |
| 20:41:26 | <archaephyrryx> | but the invisible dragon *is* flour-permeable, I swear it always was |
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| 20:42:10 | <dolio> | I still don't repeat $ usually, I use . |
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| 20:43:34 | <dolio> | But what I do depends on the actual code, and may be different from simplifications, because I don't follow rules by rote. |
| 20:43:56 | johnw_ | is now known as johnw |
| 20:46:22 | <archaephyrryx> | I typically opt for point-free style and don't use `$` very often but I am collaborating with someone with a completely opposite style and so have been subconsciously splitting the difference for this project |
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| 20:48:33 | <monochrom> | dragon and flour?! If the dragon breathes fire, and the flour is aerosoled, that's a fuel-air bomb waiting to happen >_< |
| 20:49:05 | <archaephyrryx> | was that reference too obscure? I don't know how common it is |
| 20:49:24 | [exa] | votes for obscure |
| 20:49:27 | <monochrom> | All references are too obscure. :) |
| 20:49:53 | × | ericsagnes quits (~ericsagne@2405:6580:0:5100:4407:fff6:2258:7a65) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 20:50:26 | <monochrom> | Every cultural reference is well-known to 100% of the community consisting of the solely the speaker. |
| 20:50:50 | <archaephyrryx> | it was an example about irrational claims involving shifting goalposts to thwart potential experimental counter-evidence |
| 20:51:35 | <monochrom> | Please don't worry about me. I was just spotting a huge fire/explosion hazard. :) |
| 20:51:50 | <archaephyrryx> | posed by Carl Sagan |
| 20:52:05 | <archaephyrryx> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World#Dragon_in_my_garage |
| 20:52:52 | <monochrom> | A very bad flour explosion accident happened some years ago in Taiwan, in a party or festive celebration or something featuring flour in the air. |
| 20:53:42 | <monochrom> | Yikes, the Carl Sagan dragon does breathe fire. |
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| 20:54:46 | <monochrom> | And now my turn to give an obscure reference. |
| 20:55:34 | <monochrom> | Imagine that, replying to "the fire-breathing dragon is invisible and floating", you say "so how about we spread flour in the air and see if we survive" |
| 20:56:16 | × | wroathe quits (~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 20:56:27 | <monochrom> | This will lead to a "no-dead-body problem". |
| 20:56:36 | <[exa]> | re 'The inability to invalidate the hypotesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true'....well here we've got undecidability&complexity reductions. :D |
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| 20:58:11 | <monochrom> | This is an obscure reference to a criticism of claims of cold fusion back then. If cold fusion happened, it should generate more than enough neutrons to kill everyone around. But everyone around was living just fine. This was the "no-dead-body question", or perhaps the "dead-body question". |
| 20:58:42 | <monochrom> | or s/question/problem/ or something |
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| 21:00:22 | <monochrom> | Thanks for the link. It's a good read. <3 Sagan |
| 21:00:45 | monochrom | hops over to amazon |
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| 21:01:22 | <archaephyrryx> | There is another version where the suggestion to throw flour in the air to outline the shape of the dragon was countered with "the dragon is permeable to flour" |
| 21:01:39 | <archaephyrryx> | which is what I was referencing originally |
| 21:01:44 | <monochrom> | Ah yeah. |
| 21:01:49 | × | heatsink quits (~heatsink@107-136-5-69.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 21:02:12 | <monochrom> | But I play my "why are we still alive?" card. :) |
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| 21:02:26 | <archaephyrryx> | anthropic principle to the rescue |
| 21:02:30 | <archaephyrryx> | just like qunatum-bogosort |
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| 21:05:55 | <dmwit> | It says very clearly in the link that the dragon's fire is heatless. |
| 21:06:05 | <dmwit> | So of course throwing flour in the air doesn't kill us. |
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| 21:06:28 | <monochrom> | Oops. |
| 21:06:45 | <monochrom> | Does that still count as fire? heh |
| 21:07:00 | <dmwit> | Yeah, that's... sort of Sagan's conclusion, too. |
| 21:07:11 | <dmwit> | Does this even count as a dragon if there's no way to observe it being a dragon? |
| 21:07:30 | <monochrom> | It's like Tigger but s/tiger/dragon/ |
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| 21:08:21 | <monochrom> | http://www.vex.net/~trebla/photo/unorganized/dragon.jpg |
| 21:09:00 | <dsal> | Lazy IO is the best! My programs all run instantly! Sometimes takes a while to print the output, though. |
| 21:09:31 | <monochrom> | Um that's not lazy I/O. That's just output buffering. |
| 21:09:43 | <monochrom> | OK you were joking. Haha. |
| 21:10:00 | <cheater> | monochrom: it's not output buffering, his dot matrix printer is just a bit slow |
| 21:10:10 | <monochrom> | I do have students confused by output buffering. And it's a C course. |
| 21:10:20 | <monochrom> | hahaha |
| 21:10:53 | <cheater> | monochrom: if it's a C course, make sure to get the shellfish |
| 21:11:03 | <monochrom> | hahahaha |
| 21:11:38 | <monochrom> | The course is a unix course too, there is shell. I'll have to think how to turn shell into shellfish. |
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| 21:14:20 | <dmwit> | Oh, hell. I'm a professional programmer that does programming stuff for... well, not quite 8 hours a day ;-)... and I still occasionally get flummoxed by output buffering. |
| 21:15:14 | <MarcelineVQ> | The trick is to put a couple people between you and the problem. |
| 21:15:50 | <c_wraith> | so... input buffering? |
| 21:15:57 | <dmwit> | Ahhh, problem buffering! Why didn't I think of that? |
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| 21:20:45 | <dsal> | monochrom: Oh sorry, I was going for the one where I do all this awesome parallelism and the parallel functions compute the IO actions immediately, and then they all happen sequentially when the output is needed. |
| 21:21:41 | <monochrom> | Ah. |
| 21:21:57 | hackage | aeson-schemas 1.3.1 - Easily consume JSON data on-demand with type-safety https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aeson-schemas-1.3.1 (leapyear) |
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| 21:31:56 | <cheater> | monochrom: just use the C shell |
| 21:32:07 | <monochrom> | Ah, neato |
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| 21:32:34 | <monochrom> | Hey, I now recall that "fish shell" exists, too. |
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| 21:41:56 | <maerwald> | it's nice |
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| 21:42:33 | <maerwald> | finally someone figured out that shell is about ergonmics, not features |
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| 21:42:47 | <maerwald> | (when I need features, I switch to bash temporarily) |
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| 21:49:02 | <monochrom> | It's probably a programmer trait to prefer features to ergonomics, syntax to semantics. |
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| 21:49:43 | <monochrom> | or generally a human trait to prefer superficial to careful |
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| 21:51:24 | <Cale> | In the words of Bob the Angry Flower: "I can't drink *possible* beers, I need *actual* beers! Damn you, quantum physics!" |
| 21:51:30 | <pie_> | sm[m]: well, if you have any suggestions: <_aD> It's fascinating to see how different people's idea of "big" is in computing, and how they handle it. |
| 21:51:32 | <pie_> | whoops |
| 21:51:41 | <pie_> | sm[m]: https://github.com/python-parsy/parsy/issues/48 |
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| 21:57:00 | <ddellacosta> | omg I forgot about Bob the Angry Flower, thank you Cale |
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| 22:01:49 | <dsal> | I used to use tcsh a lot way back in the day and people mocked me for various scripting things you couldn't do in tcsh. I'm like... I write my scripts in bourne shell, but I don't hang out there. |
| 22:02:20 | <dsal> | A friend had me try nushell which is... an idea. But it's a bit ununixy and a big uphill battle. |
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| 22:13:10 | <ski> | @where thwap |
| 22:13:10 | <lambdabot> | "Bob the Angry Flower's Quick Guide to" : "the apostrophe" in 2010-02 at <http://eloquentscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/bobsqu.gif>,"its and it's" in 2010-03 at <http://eloquentscience.com/ |
| 22:13:11 | <lambdabot> | wp-content/uploads/2010/03/angry-flower-guide-to-its.gif> ) |
| 22:13:21 | <ski> | ddellacosta,Cale ^ |
| 22:13:27 | <dolio> | Wow, nushell has like 3 corporate buzzwords phrases in the first two sentences describing it. |
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| 22:16:16 | <ski> | monochrom : don't forget Fᵢ-shell <http://fishell.sf.net> :) |
| 22:16:54 | <ski> | (partially inspired by logic programming) |
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| 22:30:07 | <ddellacosta> | ski: :-D |
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| 23:02:15 | <maerwald> | can you tell ormolu the indent size? |
| 23:02:48 | <monochrom> | No, tell formolu instead. |
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| 23:03:44 | <maerwald> | https://github.com/tweag/ormolu/issues/637 |
| 23:03:46 | <maerwald> | lol |
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| 23:05:55 | <maerwald> | consistency across projects that are alien to one another is big nonsense imo |
| 23:07:37 | <dsal> | ormolu is really awful. I know some people like the elm-inspired style, but it's actively bad. |
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| 23:11:22 | <maerwald> | uh... the way it breaks down long function signatures is odd |
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| 23:11:27 | <maerwald> | -> is at the end of the line |
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| 23:12:00 | <maerwald> | the end of a line is naturally what your eyes skip with a 50% chance |
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| 23:12:43 | <justsomeguy> | dsal: If you like shells, I found this awesome page of weird unix shells ... https://github.com/oilshell/oil/wiki/ExternalResources |
| 23:12:55 | <ski> | maerwald : yea .. |
| 23:12:56 | <dsal> | Some people have weird style preferences and very strong views that everyone should use them. (I say "weird" in the sense that it's just different from all the code I read when I was learning stuff, and a major disruption from stylish-haskell as I've been using it). |
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| 23:13:18 | <dsal> | justsomeguy: I just kind of live in shells. I eventually gave up on trying to build a perfect environment. |
| 23:13:18 | Randy_ | is now known as Randy |
| 23:14:42 | <dsal> | I eventually started using bash so I wouldn't be That Weird Guy, and then recently OS X told me I need to move out of bash because it's not shiny enough. |
| 23:14:56 | <yushyin> | monochrom: afaik the fork is fourmolu (minor typo) |
| 23:15:20 | <dsal> | Wait, is it really just ormolu with s/2/4/g ? |
| 23:15:23 | <justsomeguy> | dsal: I've pretty much standardized on bash, too, but I do enjoy experimenting with other things. |
| 23:15:33 | <ski> | dsal : back to tcsh, or what ? |
| 23:15:35 | <dsal> | justsomeguy: nushell was neat, but I did break it pretty quickly. heh. joys of nix, though. |
| 23:15:44 | <dsal> | ski: OS X is moving folks to zsh |
| 23:15:49 | <ski> | mhm |
| 23:15:53 | <dsal> | But yeah, that's a good point. OS X was tcsh when I started using it. |
| 23:16:07 | ski | 's still using TCsh .. |
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| 23:59:30 | <kirill> | hi all, I was looking at some docs and saw this definition "class Monad m => Blah k v m | m -> k, m -> v where [...]". what does the "| m -> k, m -> v" mean in this context? |
All times are in UTC on 2020-09-25.