Logs on 2020-09-29 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 00:22:17 | <sepi> | Can I have a helper function used and defined within 'if' bounds? |
| 00:22:22 | <sepi> | | |
| 00:22:43 | <Axman6> | wut |
| 00:23:30 | <ski> | with `let', yes |
| 00:23:52 | <ski> | but perhaps you mean guards, not `if' ? |
| 00:25:00 | <sepi> | ah yes guards |
| 00:25:42 | <ski> | you can put a `where' after the guards, and things defined inside the `where' will be in scope in the guard conditions, as well as the branches |
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| 00:33:21 | <sepi> | Besides possibly the d case, am I in the right area for doing this? https://dpaste.org/DbEh |
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| 00:35:55 | <Axman6> | well, you can't define equality on functions, so that d `elem` q is never going to work |
| 00:36:12 | <Axman6> | and sigma is a list, so you can't apply it to x and xs |
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| 00:36:36 | <Axman6> | it also looks like this function can never do anything but return true |
| 00:36:56 | <monochrom> | "my heart is always true" :) |
| 00:37:10 | <Axman6> | "or I will never return" |
| 00:38:42 | <sepi> | I had the thought that because of elem, if s is never in qs then it'd come out false |
| 00:39:35 | <Axman6> | I have no idea what's going on with this code, it's quite a long way from being syntactically valid |
| 00:41:21 | <Axman6> | you might ant to look at functions like all, and, or, any, intersect. you might also find writing a function isSubsetOf :: Eq a => [a] -> [a] -> Bool is very useful |
| 00:42:08 | <Axman6> | isSubSetOf [] [1,2,3] -> True, isSubsetOf [4] [1,2,3] -> False, isSubSetOf [1,2] [1,2,3] -> True |
| 00:42:37 | <xsperry> | > isSubsetOf [1,3] [1,2,3] |
| 00:42:39 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 00:42:39 | <lambdabot> | • Variable not in scope: isSubsetOf :: [a0] -> [a1] -> t |
| 00:42:40 | <lambdabot> | • Perhaps you meant one of these: |
| 00:42:50 | <xsperry> | huh, nm |
| 00:43:03 | <Axman6> | Data.List happens to already have isSubsequenceOf, which would work if your states were ordered |
| 00:44:31 | <Axman6> | > isSubsequenceOf "GHC" "The Glorious Haskell Compiler" |
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| 00:44:34 | <lambdabot> | True |
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| 00:46:23 | <Axman6> | sepi: what is let d xs ys = q <> (sigma (x)) : d q (sigma xs) supposed to be doing? |
| 00:48:28 | hackage | cabal-auto-expose 0.1.0.1 - Build time library that autodetects exposed modules https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cabal-auto-expose-0.1.0.1 (deech) |
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| 00:49:12 | <sepi> | was it at least a good idea to do q:s and f:fs for those variables. Supposedly can't use any modules |
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| 00:51:26 | <Axman6> | I don';t understand the question |
| 00:53:11 | <Axman6> | I think you're trying to do too much at once - I would split the checks you need to do out in a where clause and check each thing individually |
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| 00:54:50 | <Axman6> | like I said, start by defining a function which checks if all elements of one list are contained in another, then checks (2) and (3) are trivial |
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| 00:56:54 | <ski> | the `let' is shadowing the `d' input with another locally defined function called `d' |
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| 00:59:18 | <ski> | it also seems to me like this is better written without guards |
| 00:59:31 | <Axman6> | absolutely |
| 00:59:53 | <sepi> | where x /= xs, test ( next elements in xs, s, fs, d) ? |
| 00:59:55 | <ski> | (but if you really want to, i guess you could use them .. but it'd be unidiomatic) |
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| 01:00:35 | <ski> | sepi : what is that supposed to check ? |
| 01:01:42 | <sepi> | I want to check if the states in xs are all unique |
| 01:02:05 | <ski> | how about defining a separate function for checking that ? |
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| 01:02:36 | <ski> | it seems you're trying to do too many things at the same time, in `checkFSM', and confusing them up with each other |
| 01:03:11 | <sepi> | checkFSM call all the functions or functions would be defined inside? |
| 01:03:31 | <ski> | "wishful thinking" can be useful, when programming. imagine you had a function that could check whether a list had no duplicates. then you could use that function to check one of your conditions for `checkFSM' |
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| 01:04:21 | <ski> | you could either put off defining that function for later (after writing a bit of `checkFSM', perhaps all). or you could start by defining this helper function, and then come back to `checkFSM', to use it there |
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| 01:04:59 | <ski> | you could either define such a helper function, inside a `where'-clause for `checkFSM'. or define it separately, in your module |
| 01:05:17 | <ski> | (with the latter option, you could test it out on its own, in the interactor) |
| 01:06:42 | <ski> | anyway, if you'd like to try this, you'd then have to do one of the harder things in programming .. namely invent some suitable name, for this helper function |
| 01:07:56 | <Axman6> | I already did some of that work, with isSubsetOf above |
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| 01:19:00 | <sepi> | https://dpaste.org/taJt#L1,3 |
| 01:19:05 | <sepi> | my mind still goes elem |
| 01:19:29 | <sepi> | except I should've put notelem |
| 01:20:09 | <ski> | what is the intent of `go' ? |
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| 01:22:41 | <sepi> | use that to check my first case to see if qs has no duplicates is what I was thinking |
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| 01:23:22 | <ski> | that doesn't explain specifically what behaviour `go' is intended to have |
| 01:24:43 | <ski> | perhaps if you'd have a suggestion for how you'd want to call `go' from `checkFSM', that might clarify it a bit ? |
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| 01:25:32 | <Axman6> | ski: go only checks if a single element is contained in another list, it is _exactly_ the same as elem |
| 01:25:37 | <Axman6> | uh, sepi |
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| 01:25:52 | <ski> | (or else, if you prefer, you could tell what `go' is supposed to check/compute, given inputs, without referring to how you might then use that in `checkFSM') |
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| 01:26:52 | ski | isn't bothering with the (current) implementation of `go', so far, at most taking the type signature of it into account |
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| 01:29:15 | <Axman6> | sepi: I've said a few times now you should try to write a function with the following type: Eq a => [a] -> [a] -> Bool, which returns true if all the elements in the first list are contained in the second list. what do you think the base case of this function should be? |
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| 01:35:53 | <Axman6> | sepi: do you understand that f ... | x = True | otherwise = False is the same as just f ... = x? "If x is true return true, otherwise x must be false so return false" |
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| 01:37:36 | <sepi> | I suppose the base case would be if it were comparing list1to list2 which is empty it'd return false? |
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| 01:38:05 | <Axman6> | why false? |
| 01:38:27 | <Axman6> | the empty set is a subset of all sets isn't it? |
| 01:38:46 | <Axman6> | are all the elements of [] in [1,2,3]? |
| 01:40:16 | <sepi> | ah yes I was already thinking of it backwards are all elements of [1,2,3] in [] |
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| 01:41:56 | <sepi> | for the guards I was using them because it was the only way I thought of going through all the cases at once. But I doing if, elif, elif instead it looks like |
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| 01:43:35 | <Axman6> | sepi: have you tried to write the function I suggested? |
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| 01:44:43 | <sepi> | could it work like, checkFSM (qs, [], [], []) = define func.....([], s, [], []) = define function |
| 01:44:46 | <sepi> | for seperation |
| 01:44:55 | <sepi> | I'll do the one you were talking about now |
| 01:45:17 | <Axman6> | sepi: look, if you want help, you need to listen to the help we give. if you're going to ignore it, then I'll go and do something else, it's not worth my time |
| 01:46:49 | <Axman6> | we're trying to steer you in the right direction, but you keep getting distracted. no, I don't think that will work, this isn;t something that makes sense to do by traversing the lists all at the same time. break the problem down into smaller problems like we've said, and then combine the results |
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| 01:48:32 | <Axman6> | your final function will probably look something like: checkFSM (qs, s, fs d) = uniqueStates && startIsValid && finalsAreValid && transitionsAreValid where uniqueStates = ...; startsAreValid = ... |
| 01:50:34 | <ski> | sepi : have you used `&&' before ? do you know what it means ? |
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| 01:58:47 | <sepi> | Haskell doesn't speak to me too well which is why I take forever my bad |
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| 01:59:14 | <sepi> | Yes it would mean statement one and statement two both have to meet the condition |
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| 02:00:46 | <ski> | yes, `&&' expresses a logical "and". `foo && bar' means that both `foo' and `bar' have to be `True', in order for the result of the whole `foo && bar' to be `True'. if either (or both) of them are `False', then the whole will be `False' |
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| 02:02:58 | <ski> | sepi : .. i'm still wondering what you wanted `go' to express |
| 02:03:34 | <ski> | or if you got any further, with the function that Axman6 suggested you could define |
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| 02:14:24 | <sepi> | Its looking like are elements in list a, are in the full set of b |
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| 02:14:51 | <ski> | what is `a' and `b' there ? |
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| 02:16:23 | <sepi> | https://dpaste.org/gje6#L1,3 |
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| 02:16:46 | <sepi> | https://learnstack.in/assets/ppt/ppt_img/python-subset.jpg |
| 02:17:04 | <ski> | what is `test a b' supposed to compute/test/check ? |
| 02:17:06 | <sepi> | that function is doing this which is checking if a is in a subset b |
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| 02:17:39 | <sepi> | *if 'a' is a subset of 'b' |
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| 02:18:00 | <ski> | the name `test' (nor the name `go') doesn't give much hint about what it's supposed to be testing |
| 02:18:06 | <ski> | ok |
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| 02:18:51 | <ski> | maybe you could invent some more descriptive name, for this function, giving some more hint about what it's supposed to do ? |
| 02:19:20 | <Axman6> | > all (const False) [] |
| 02:19:22 | <lambdabot> | True |
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| 02:20:05 | <Axman6> | sepi: Did you write that function yourself? can you explain to us how it works? |
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| 02:22:10 | <Axman6> | I'm asking because if I were your lecturer or tutor, and I saw checkFSM and test in the same file, I would be very suspicious that test was copied from somewhere because it shows a much better understanding of Haskell than checkFSM does |
| 02:25:10 | ski | idly wonders whether sepi has tested `test [1,2,3] []' |
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| 02:27:14 | <sepi> | it is now called isSubsetOf, with 'all' it'll return true if all items in list meet the condition. so its taking the condition (elem b) and applying it to the 'a' list |
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| 02:29:07 | <ski> | and what about `isSubsetOf [1,2,3] []' ? |
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| 02:30:10 | <sepi> | I suppose it should be isSubsetOf [] b = True for first condition |
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| 02:31:33 | <Axman6> | is [1,2,3] a subset of [] though? |
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| 02:32:59 | <sepi> | no because nothing is in [], but [] is a subset of [1,2,3] because empty is in [1,2,3] |
| 02:33:18 | <ski> | what will all (`elem` b) [] evaluate to ? |
| 02:33:23 | <Axman6> | does your function agree with that? |
| 02:33:34 | <sshine> | if empty is in [1,2,3], what is empty? |
| 02:33:39 | <Axman6> | ski: I think this does actually work btw |
| 02:34:13 | <ski> | Axman6 : mm, i was on cleaning up |
| 02:34:24 | <Axman6> | > let isSubsetOf xs ys = all (`elem` ys) xs in isSubsetOf [1,2,3] [] |
| 02:34:27 | <lambdabot> | False |
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| 02:34:38 | <Axman6> | > let isSubsetOf xs ys = all (`elem` ys) xs in isSubsetOf [] [1,2,3] |
| 02:34:40 | <lambdabot> | True |
| 02:34:43 | <Axman6> | > let isSubsetOf xs ys = all (`elem` ys) xs in isSubsetOf [4] [1,2,3] |
| 02:34:45 | <lambdabot> | False |
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| 02:37:20 | <Axman6> | > let isSubsetOf xs ys = all (`elem` ys) xs in isSubsetOf [3,2] [1,2,3] -- probably the more important test |
| 02:37:22 | <lambdabot> | True |
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| 02:41:39 | <ski> | > let isSubsetOf xs ys = all (`elem` ys) xs in isSubsetOf [3,2,3] [1,2,3,2] |
| 02:41:41 | <lambdabot> | True |
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| 03:03:26 | <BalterNotz> | hi everyone, do you know about haskell language 2020 report release date? |
| 03:03:38 | <ornxka> | some time in 2020 |
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| 03:08:04 | <monochrom> | Nothing |
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| 03:13:58 | <sepi> | I made a function that checks for uniqueness within a list, 2 and 3 could be checked by isSubsetOf, for transition function I think I need to take all the possible outputs of d with q <- qs and c <- sigma and then make sure all these outputs are a valid state |
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| 03:15:24 | <ski> | sepi : sounds like a plan |
| 03:15:34 | <ski> | (show current code ?) |
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| 03:30:50 | <sepi> | I'm not even sure that's correct explanation for transition, conceptually I think I could write out a chart but still need to learn more to apply it to Haskell. https://dpaste.org/FQog |
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| 03:34:15 | <monochrom> | You have a syntax problem. You should write "isSubsetOf fs qs", not "isSubsetOf (fs qs)". |
| 03:34:49 | <monochrom> | You also have a type problem. You should write "isSubsetOf [s] qs", not "isSubsetOf s qs". |
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| 03:35:14 | <Axman6> | sepi: why do you have the isSubsetOf a [] = True case? you're saying that all lists are a subset of the empty list, which seems wrong to me |
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| 03:35:44 | <monochrom> | haha I didn't catch that. Semantic problems are the best problems. |
| 03:35:58 | <ski> | we already pointed that one out, before |
| 03:36:24 | <Axman6> | yeah I only just realised that's what you were referring to, since the code changed when I went to look at it again |
| 03:36:40 | <ski> | sepi : instead of using `if', could you reexpress that condition, using logical operators ? |
| 03:36:43 | <monochrom> | Transition validty is a matter of: for all elements q of qs, for all element c of sigma, is "d q c" is an element of qs? |
| 03:37:10 | <monochrom> | Since you have learned the "all" function, transition validity is a one-liner. |
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| 03:37:44 | <Axman6> | Everything's a one-liner if you're brave enough |
| 03:37:56 | <monochrom> | Nah. |
| 03:38:57 | <monochrom> | Everything is a one-liner if there are enough support functions, which in turn are one-liners in their own right, recursively down to the built-ins. |
| 03:39:14 | <monochrom> | Therefore, we have the very wise and deep tautology: |
| 03:39:27 | <monochrom> | Everything is a one-liner if everything is a one-liner. :) |
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| 03:40:48 | <hololeap> | everything is a "do" block |
| 03:41:31 | <hololeap> | in the IO monad |
| 03:41:42 | <Axman6> | Nah |
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| 04:08:44 | <sepi> | tValid :: Int -> Char -> Int -> BooltValid d q c = all (`elem` q) qs && all (`elem` c) sigma |
| 04:08:59 | <sepi> | monochrom would this be a decent start? |
| 04:09:37 | <sepi> | ski you mean other than guards correct? for the if statement |
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| 04:26:48 | <benet8> | on |
| 04:27:25 | <sepi> | My bad got disconnected didn't realize. thanks for the assistance Haskell is a little clearer than when I woke this morning |
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| 04:32:25 | <benet8> | q |
| 04:32:29 | <sim590> | Is it possible to force building the package of my cabal project without downloading anythihng. I'm writing some CI script and I don't want any downloading since everything is being installed in my Docker image. |
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| 04:38:28 | hackage | hls-plugin-api 0.4.1.0 - Haskell Language Server API for plugin communication https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hls-plugin-api-0.4.1.0 (jneira) |
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| 04:39:33 | <sim590> | new-build --offline just doesn't work. I still see "Downloading" lines. |
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| 05:22:03 | <hololeap> | what's a good way to combine functions that pattern match on a sum type, so that if the first function fails to match, it moves on to the next? |
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| 05:23:47 | <hololeap> | i think this could be made into a monoid somehow, where mempty is a function that never matches |
| 05:24:06 | <glguy> | Have the function return a Maybe result |
| 05:24:14 | <glguy> | Nothing for no match, Just result for a match |
| 05:24:57 | <glguy> | then you can take the first result that was a Just |
| 05:25:01 | <hololeap> | ah, or a Maybe (First a), which would fufill my monoid wishes |
| 05:25:25 | <glguy> | Instead of Monoid you can use Alternative |
| 05:25:44 | <glguy> | If you want to use First, just use First; you don't need the extra Maybe in that case |
| 05:26:40 | <hololeap> | what would i do if the entire thing returned a Nothing? ideally it would pass through the normal error about failing a pattern match |
| 05:27:19 | <glguy> | There's no failing pattern matches |
| 05:27:45 | <glguy> | You'll have all complete patterns; some will return Nothing |
| 05:28:28 | <hololeap> | in this case, the Maybe has to be discarded before it is passed along |
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| 05:29:15 | <hololeap> | i'm looking at appHandleEvent from Brick.Main |
| 05:30:30 | <hololeap> | i would like to have a "default" where certain BrickEvent possibilities are handled, but the ability to pass in custom handlers which can handle more possibilites |
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| 05:31:43 | <hololeap> | oh, i think i see the correct solution here |
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| 05:33:22 | <hololeap> | if the inner function returns a Nothing, then it will pass through the original state |
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| 06:12:56 | <fog> | do we have something like go in haskell? |
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| 06:14:08 | <fog> | i was watching a pretty cool talk about how it made its way into "kotlin" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj5P47F6nJg |
| 06:14:59 | <fog> | erm, not the whole of go obviously, just the async await stuff |
| 06:15:06 | <fog> | seemed pretty state of the art |
| 06:15:11 | <gnumonik> | Is there any way to use Control.Lens to update an element of a Data.Vector vector if it's present, and insert some other element if it's not? Or is that impossible because vectors aren't sufficiently maplike for a Control.Lens.At At instance? |
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| 06:16:10 | <fog> | what do you mean "if its present" - and "sufficently maplike" ? |
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| 06:17:20 | <fog> | im guessing you mean like Data.Map has a lookup key which is used by At |
| 06:17:38 | <fog> | so you want to lens to a specific position in the vector |
| 06:17:59 | <fog> | but then, what would it mean to have this "not be there"? |
| 06:18:05 | <fog> | arent vectors "full"? |
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| 06:18:30 | <gnumonik> | er sorry, i meant an element at a given index in the vector. really i only care about the case where it's an empty vector |
| 06:19:23 | <fog> | hmm, i cant remember if vectors have fixed length... let me check the docs |
| 06:20:21 | <fog> | ah, no, they are specifcally supposed to support slicing, so i guess the empty vector is like the empty list, instead of like, a fixed length vector full of undefineds or something |
| 06:20:36 | <fog> | so im still not sure this "if its present" fits well with this |
| 06:20:45 | <fog> | do you just mean an out of bounds accessor? |
| 06:21:16 | <fog> | but then, i guess you couldnt have it "insert" at this position - basically thinking of it being listlike - so you would need all the values inbetween aswell |
| 06:21:38 | <fog> | basically, no, its not suffciently maplike to insert at an arbitrary out of bounds position |
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| 06:23:17 | <fog> | i think you could be confusing it with something like memory addresses, where you would kind of malloc off a block, like the mutability of mvector |
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| 06:23:45 | <fog> | then you could have these presumably not containing any actual values. thats not how vectors work |
| 06:24:21 | <fog> | is it? |
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| 06:26:19 | <gnumonik> | I just meant "empty" in the Data.Vector.empty sense I think? I dunno if those are empty in some deeper sense than V.null (V.empty) = True |
| 06:26:50 | <fog> | % null [] |
| 06:26:51 | <yahb> | fog: True |
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| 06:27:05 | <fog> | maybe you want https://hackage.haskell.org/package/array-0.5.4.0/docs/Data-Array.html |
| 06:28:31 | <Xnuk> | what is % |
| 06:28:50 | <fog> | > null [] |
| 06:28:52 | <lambdabot> | True |
| 06:29:08 | <fog> | see how its either lambdabot or yahb that responds |
| 06:29:18 | <fog> | % is for messaging yahb |
| 06:29:19 | <yahb> | fog: ; <interactive>:133:1: error:; * Variable not in scope: is :: (t2 a0 -> (a0 -> f0 b0) -> f0 (t2 b0)) -> t0 -> t1 -> t; * Perhaps you meant one of these: `C.id' (imported from Control.Category), `id' (imported from Prelude), `iso' (imported from Control.Lens); <interactive>:133:8: error: Variable not in scope: messaging; <interactive>:133:18: error: Variable not in scope: yahb |
| 06:29:23 | <fog> | ... |
| 06:29:26 | <Xnuk> | awesome |
| 06:29:37 | <Xnuk> | > is for messaging lambdabot |
| 06:29:40 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 06:29:40 | <lambdabot> | • Variable not in scope: |
| 06:29:40 | <lambdabot> | is :: (t2 a0 -> (a0 -> f0 b0) -> f0 (t2 b0)) -> t0 -> t1 -> t |
| 06:29:45 | <fog> | yes |
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| 06:30:07 | <fog> | yahb is sometimes better for supporting module imports and language extensions |
| 06:30:19 | <fog> | never quite sure when lambdabot is going to complain |
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| 06:32:34 | <fog> | gnumonik: see; https://hackage.haskell.org/package/array-0.5.4.0/docs/Data-Array-MArray.html#g:3 |
| 06:33:08 | <fog> | im guessing nobody online can answer about go or kotlin - ill return in a while |
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| 06:33:37 | <gnumonik> | I'll check it out, thanks. That might be overkill though. I read that "never use lists" article and converted a bunch of lists that will never hold more than a dozen elements into vectors because... I dunno |
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| 06:35:34 | <Xnuk> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/async |
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| 06:42:30 | <hc> | ah, the beautiful async package. :) multithreaded programming is one of the most enjoyable things to do in haskell imho |
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| 06:50:48 | <fog> | hc: do you know how this compares to the "job" and "structured concurrency" notions from kotlin (discussed in the talk linked) |
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| 06:51:28 | <hc> | fog: kotlin in based on the java vm, so I guess they'll be using some async/await concept? |
| 06:51:37 | <fog> | they have a fancy "launch" thing that somehow captures all of the scopes nicely and does error propagation in a way that is somehow good |
| 06:51:53 | <hc> | lemme check it |
| 06:51:56 | <fog> | hc: argh, i cant really summarise the talk very well... |
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| 06:52:47 | <fog> | it was something to do with branching concurent substructures all being contained in the same kind of overall thread |
| 06:53:09 | <fog> | so that errors could not "leak from the context" or something... |
| 06:53:13 | <hc> | could you give me a link to the talk? i cannot find it in the backlog |
| 06:53:25 | <fog> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj5P47F6nJg |
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| 06:53:39 | <hc> | thx |
| 06:53:45 | <fog> | "Roman Elizarov — Structured concurrency" |
| 06:54:22 | <fog> | i think it was something to do with "go considered harmful" |
| 06:54:26 | <hc> | having a look at it now |
| 06:54:29 | <fog> | ok |
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| 06:55:17 | <hc> | ah. "inspired by async/await". 2nd slide. so it cannot be good ;p |
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| 06:59:33 | <fog> | basically, the way im doing it atm is to just launch an exe per function - and to have these all just communicate with each other using stdio |
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| 07:00:38 | <fog> | the problem with the idea of "structured concurrency" in this approach, is that if any of the processes are long lived, and are killed unexpectedly by some rogue sentinal process (which seems to be the case at least on the free tier of AWS) |
| 07:01:01 | <fog> | where its actually really difficult to get a persistent process |
| 07:01:21 | <fog> | so then, the functions have to kind of watch the threads of each other to see if one gets killed |
| 07:01:39 | <fog> | and have the ability to restart the thing that watches over them if *it* gets killed |
| 07:02:12 | <fog> | so the idea of having these all under one parent process is totally counterproductive, since it would result in all the processes getting killed |
| 07:02:27 | hackage | fakedata 0.8.0 - Library for producing fake data https://hackage.haskell.org/package/fakedata-0.8.0 (psibi) |
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| 07:02:53 | <fog> | the real problem is that these are all done using linux threads, and i have some crude way of interfacing with top to get the thread numbers, its all a total hack |
| 07:03:15 | <fog> | and that really what i want, is for some kind of haskell based representation of a graph to keep track of all of these threads |
| 07:03:34 | <fog> | but then i cant reconcile the "distributed" thing, of having each of the functions running on its own exe |
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| 07:04:15 | <fog> | and the way of handling all of the communication structure from within one haskell program, so i can use nice representations of graphs for the function net |
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| 07:21:10 | <hc> | fog: ah, you were gone shortly when I said about the talk: "ah. "inspired by async/await". 2nd slide. so it cannot be good ;p" |
| 07:21:24 | <fog> | hmm |
| 07:21:37 | <hc> | imho the async/await is justified in some niche programming areas, but the way it's accepted as a generic paradigm is a bit scary |
| 07:21:50 | <hc> | i don't consider it a feature of a high level language |
| 07:21:51 | <fog> | can you elaborate? |
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| 07:22:03 | <hc> | you clutter your code with implementation details that should be left to the runtime |
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| 07:22:43 | <fog> | i guess thats why he was using kotlin - the resulting implementation managed to capture the hierarchical concurrency really neatly |
| 07:22:59 | <hc> | ok, i'll have to continue with the talk :) |
| 07:23:27 | <fog> | basically it ended up with it being like a tree structure with all the branching lower forked processes being under the same top node |
| 07:23:40 | <fog> | which allowed for errors to be gathered |
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| 07:23:56 | <fog> | and that no strange effects could escape the encapsulation |
| 07:24:09 | <fog> | but this was kind of the exact opposite of my use case |
| 07:24:19 | <fog> | i cant see how that would ever work in a distributed setting |
| 07:24:34 | <fog> | it seems like its just an approach to "green threads" managment - within the program itself |
| 07:25:03 | <fog> | instead of as a way of scheduling genuinely parallel computations, running in different exes possibly on different machines |
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| 07:25:41 | <fog> | if you try and encapsulate all your threads in one runtime, then how can you ever hope to have distributed concurrency... |
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| 07:33:55 | <hc> | sigh, that talk is too verbose... i need to find a PDF or something |
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| 07:36:02 | <fog> | hc: its not like the question actually requires an understanding of the concept of structured concurrency |
| 07:36:22 | <fog> | i dont want you to have to watch a whole talk just to get what i mean... |
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| 07:37:52 | <hc> | fog: i gave up anyway; I'd rather read a paper or article about the concepts |
| 07:38:00 | <fog> | supposing i dont care about distributing the processes and i can just have everything in one program |
| 07:38:45 | <fog> | then i can use things like the async library - and im mostly concerned with comunication "channels" and shared memory like in STM - or mutable state per "node" like in an actors model |
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| 07:40:08 | <fog> | hc: i dont really want to start linking a bunch of kotlin stuff here, but the author showed some blog posts he had made during the talk, so i guess you can just search his name |
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| 07:41:04 | <fog> | he said it was mostly inspired by this post; |
| 07:41:04 | <fog> | https://vorpus.org/blog/notes-on-structured-concurrency-or-go-statement-considered-harmful/ |
| 07:41:27 | <fog> | or rather, thats where the phrase "structured concurrency" was taken from |
| 07:42:02 | <fog> | do you know of any abstractions that capture these concepts? |
| 07:42:12 | <fog> | like, STM, vs Actors etc |
| 07:42:36 | <hc> | tbh, the article already makes me a bit biased by starting with a sentence like 'Every concurrency API needs a way to run code concurrently.' |
| 07:42:36 | <fog> | i cant think what functions a class would have to provide to capture both of these concurrency paradigms |
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| 07:43:10 | <fog> | biased? |
| 07:43:58 | hackage | orbits 0.4 - Types and functions for Kepler orbits. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/orbits-0.4 (jophish) |
| 07:44:04 | <fog> | im just concerned that while we have at least one implementation of Actors, (i havent looked into STM yet, as i dont think i need shared mutable memory) |
| 07:44:21 | <fog> | that they dont satisfy an overall interface |
| 07:44:36 | <fog> | im not quite sure what that would be |
| 07:45:01 | <fog> | the talk basically was along the lines of "dont make a list of concurrent processes" |
| 07:45:38 | <fog> | and instead advocated them being treelike to capture ancestry in order to propagate failure and errors. |
| 07:45:43 | <hc> | wait, he has to explain to me his new control structure by starting with a history of goto? sorry, haven't got the time for that right now |
| 07:46:24 | <fog> | right, dont bother with the talk, sorry - i was just trying to get the part that was important |
| 07:46:53 | <hc> | i mean the article. that's just as confusing and verbose |
| 07:47:13 | <fog> | there was basically some magical way the kotlin language managed to render all of the handling of this tree processes as syntax where it could wrangle the contexts |
| 07:47:40 | <nshepperd1> | what concurrency API doesn't need a way to run code concurrently |
| 07:47:51 | <fog> | hc: seriously, its so simple - its just a tree as opposed to a list of concurrent processes. |
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| 07:48:57 | <fog> | anyway, i cant understand how to structure an API for an actors model. apparently i dont want a "node list" and so presumably i dont want an edge list either |
| 07:49:12 | <fog> | i guess the idea is just to capture all that into a syntax tree |
| 07:49:31 | <fog> | and that kotlin gives some fancy way to write syntax like functions or something |
| 07:49:52 | <fog> | so that he could write things like keywords like "launch" or "run" |
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| 07:50:48 | <fog> | but basically the whole idea of "structured concurrency" was just something like having a ADT for the connectivity between calling processes |
| 07:51:42 | <fog> | ah, im confusing "comunications chanels" as edges, and this "calling processes" as parents, as branches in the syntax tree |
| 07:51:57 | <fog> | i guess i should read more about mailboxes |
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| 07:59:36 | <fog30> | ok, so from what i can understand, it needs something like an erlang "scheduler" |
| 08:00:18 | <fog30> | otherwise its going to be a wasteful thread, just rereading an empty mailbox over and over until it receives a "message" which is some input argument to the function |
| 08:01:19 | <fog30> | im not sure how it works to do with the mailbox being listlike, so that the receipt of messages can be raced upon, and the control of which inputs to accept is then passed to the actor |
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| 08:02:06 | <fog30> | like it can say, "i take types of Either Int Bool, where the Ints are from this actor, and im going to process them before any of the Bools im recieving from this other actor" |
| 08:02:12 | <fog30> | by "reading its mailbox" |
| 08:02:31 | <fog30> | and in this way, somehow converting between being a pushed or pulled process.. |
| 08:02:48 | <fog30> | not sure what the termanology is - something to do with state vs costate |
| 08:02:56 | <fog30> | producer vs consumer |
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| 08:03:33 | <fog30> | that by reading its mailbox, it decides when to respond, as opposed to being forced to respond by the thing sending messages |
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| 08:04:41 | <fog30> | so you dont like, supply an argument to a function, you just put it in the mailbox, and the function can decide when to operate on it - i guess essentially becoming blocking in the process |
| 08:05:01 | <fog30> | but, then, there is nothing that should be waiting on it, it only ever sends messages to other mailboxes |
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| 08:05:22 | <fog30> | which then somehow serve like input arguments in function application syntax |
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| 08:05:39 | <fog30> | sounds totally mental |
| 08:06:17 | <fog30> | let bound variables passed as inputs to functions would be replaced with emited messages stored in the actors mailbox |
| 08:07:03 | <fog30> | i cant see how that would work at all really! the let bound variable might not have had a value written to it yet |
| 08:07:26 | <fog30> | hmm, i guess that would be the empty list, as a mailbox |
| 08:07:40 | <fog30> | so it seems like all values end up being replaced by lists |
| 08:08:06 | <fog30> | wierd paradigm. pretty sure thats not how the actors models we have as libraries work... |
| 08:08:32 | <fog30> | seems like the kind of thing that would work really well with linear types. |
| 08:08:46 | <fog30> | then we can have messages that are like "burn after reading" |
| 08:09:02 | <fog30> | so they dont need to be garbage collected |
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| 08:14:57 | hackage | nothunks 0.1.1.0 - Examine values for unexpected thunks https://hackage.haskell.org/package/nothunks-0.1.1.0 (EdskoDeVries) |
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| 08:44:52 | <fog> | hmm, i have found several resources |
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| 08:44:53 | <fog> | https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2014-March/113341.html |
| 08:45:06 | <fog> | this is a pretty decent thread discussing actors models |
| 08:45:24 | <fog> | not really sure about erlang vs cloud haskell |
| 08:45:34 | <fog> | but i like the references to different implementations of channels |
| 08:46:15 | <fog> | and different ways of scheduling, which i guess kind of makes actors basically an incomplete theory, if im not misunderstanding something |
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| 08:46:23 | <fog> | seems non-deterministic at least |
| 08:46:57 | <fog> | whereas you would normally want a "functions net" style implmentation with mutable state per function to be reproducable from the same initial conditions |
| 08:47:15 | <fog> | basically then we end up with the same considerations about things like LVars for the channels |
| 08:47:28 | <AWizzArd> | In Servant I describe my route and parameters, or the type of a json body. Now in Snap: is the way to go to fetch what is in the request and call Aeson’s `decode` manually on it? |
| 08:47:32 | <fog> | and a lattice computation for the sheduling |
| 08:48:28 | <fog> | but then, how would you do that sheduling? is it just a race? wouldnt it be better to have a way to demand that certain actors downstream of a let bound value can be demanded to be evaluated, or does that always result in blocking? |
| 08:48:49 | <fog> | like, is this racing actors a way to avoid blocking at the expense of determinism? |
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| 08:49:21 | <fog> | that doesnt sound like a good idea from the tradition of pure functional programing where we require reproducibility of programs |
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| 08:50:19 | <fog> | then you would need some way for this lattice of actors to have like a sat solver or something to guarantee it is free from blockages |
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| 08:51:03 | <fog> | that seems like it could somehow be encoded at type level as the topology, but that would require some kind of guarantees about the functions ability to return |
| 08:51:24 | <fog> | like basically, you would have it in ST or pure, so that it wasnt doing any blocking IO |
| 08:52:12 | <fog> | then these "pure actors" could have network topological guaranties basically as "the shape of the program" at type level to be non-blocking by construction |
| 08:53:01 | <fog> | i guess that also then gives rise to a determinable evaluation order inferred by the topology |
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| 08:53:48 | <fog> | but then, actors are supposed to be able to spawn new actors - so how would you have these runtime guaranties at type level |
| 08:54:43 | <fog> | i guess there is proabably some deep result there about how actors, by having runtime variable topoligies, *have* to have the racing and mailboxes in order to then not require this typechecking |
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| 08:55:26 | <fog> | then it seems like the fundamental problem is the reconciliation of runtime variable determinism guarantees in concurrent pure programming |
| 08:55:47 | <fog> | which sounds kind of above my pay grade |
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| 08:56:31 | <fog> | maybe if i had a working actors model, i could get some simulated elves to do it... |
| 08:56:56 | <fog> | all talking elvish |
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| 09:00:36 | <dminuoso> | AWizzArd: getPostParam? |
| 09:01:12 | <dminuoso> | Oh wait, this is something else |
| 09:01:57 | <dminuoso> | snap is weird |
| 09:02:12 | <hc> | why would you switch from servant to snap? |
| 09:02:12 | <AWizzArd> | dminuoso: Yeah, I can fetch contents of the Request and then do with it whatever I want. |
| 09:02:23 | <hc> | (just curious) |
| 09:02:28 | <AWizzArd> | hc: experimentation, seeing different styles. |
| 09:02:39 | <AWizzArd> | Our main service is using Servant. |
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| 09:02:47 | <AWizzArd> | Now for a small email service I’m trying Snap. |
| 09:03:18 | <AWizzArd> | I think in Snap I need to do things a tiny bit more manually. |
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| 09:04:01 | <dminuoso> | AWizzArd: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/snap-core-1.0.4.2/docs/Snap-Internal-Core.html#v:getRequest |
| 09:04:13 | <dminuoso> | There you can extract the body from. |
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| 09:04:58 | <AWizzArd> | dminuoso: Right, and it works. I guess my main question is if I need to do this manually. Or if there is a Servant-like mechanism that lets me declaritively describe an expected request, and have Snap deliver me automatically args. |
| 09:05:15 | <AWizzArd> | The „YOU can extract the body” part (: |
| 09:05:20 | <dminuoso> | So you're looking for servant? ;) |
| 09:05:46 | <dminuoso> | But really, you can relatively trivially write your own combinator |
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| 09:06:42 | <AWizzArd> | dminuoso: Another thing I am looking for: what if I want to use a ReaderT Context where I can place some nice TVars? How would I serve a site using my own reader? |
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| 09:07:13 | <AWizzArd> | The httpServe function wants a `Snap ()` value. |
| 09:07:22 | <dminuoso> | getJSONRequest :: (FromJson t, MonadSnap m) => m t; getJSONRequest = do <- body <- rqBody <$> getRequest; buf <- ...; decode buf `note` ParseError ... |
| 09:07:54 | <dminuoso> | Some badly written pseudo, but i hope it conveys my thoughts |
| 09:08:17 | <dminuoso> | AWizzArd: Write your own MonadSnap instance. |
| 09:08:46 | <dminuoso> | In case of ReaderT, you can trivially unwrap it no? ;) |
| 09:08:50 | <AWizzArd> | dminuoso: yes, the route :: MonadSnap m => [(ByteString, m a)] -> m a looks good. There also already IS a ReaderT instance for MonadSnap. |
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| 09:09:23 | <dminuoso> | say, you have `data App a = App { runApp :: ReaderT Env (Snap a) } deriving (Functor, Applicative, Monad, MonadSnap, MonadReader Env)` |
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| 09:09:41 | <AWizzArd> | dminuoso: shouldn’t there me some foo :: (MonadSnap m) => m -> Snap () ? |
| 09:09:41 | <dminuoso> | Then you can just say `httpServce . runReaderT someEnv . runApp $ someApp` |
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| 09:09:52 | <dminuoso> | AWizzArd: ^- that. |
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| 09:10:20 | <dminuoso> | Think of ReaderT as being just a function, then getting the Snap out of it is just a matter of providing the argument. |
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| 09:10:35 | <AWizzArd> | Yes, that makes sense. |
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| 09:10:41 | <dminuoso> | Oh, I think the argument was flipped around. |
| 09:11:00 | <dminuoso> | so `httpSevce . flip runReaderT someEnv . runApp $ someApp` |
| 09:11:46 | <dminuoso> | (So if we squint a bit, runReaderT is just ($)) |
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| 09:18:21 | <AWizzArd> | dminuoso: yes, that makes sense. The runReaderT is that function that returns the `Snap ()`. |
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| 09:19:16 | <dminuoso> | This is no different than servant btw |
| 09:20:50 | <dminuoso> | Abstractly, in both snap and servant you need a natural transformation `T ~> Snap` and respectively `T ~> Handler`. In servant you provide that in hoistServer, and in snap it's a bit more direct. |
| 09:20:59 | <dminuoso> | (Where T is your custom monad) |
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| 09:29:57 | hackage | cabal-cache 1.0.2.0 - CI Assistant for Haskell projects https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cabal-cache-1.0.2.0 (haskellworks) |
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| 09:33:55 | <AWizzArd> | dminuoso: in Servant I had to do this, yes, and wrap the result of runReader in a Handler: Handler $ runReaderT (runApp appt) context |
| 09:34:22 | <AWizzArd> | dminuoso: but the game was not over yet: I also had to `hoistServer` it. |
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| 09:38:13 | <maerwald> | lol |
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| 09:38:40 | <maerwald> | runSomeThing . unwrapSomething . hoistMe . unliftMe . liftOther |
| 09:38:43 | <maerwald> | such functional |
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| 09:39:26 | <maerwald> | justMakeTheDamnThingTypecheck |
| 09:39:44 | <AWizzArd> | maerwald: yeah. |
| 09:40:06 | <AWizzArd> | maerwald: so Snap is more "manual". That’s one difference. |
| 09:41:15 | <AWizzArd> | maerwald: in Servant I say that I get a json body and I want Servant to parse it into a SendEmailRequest value. Not much to do, it now is a parameter, I won’t have to call Aeson or read anything from a request. |
| 09:43:06 | <AWizzArd> | maerwald: also I start my handler with myHandler = readRequestBody (1024*30) >>= (\body -> ...) |
| 09:43:26 | <hc> | actually, you never tell servant what you want it to do. you just declare what you are expecting to handle ;-) |
| 09:43:27 | <AWizzArd> | maerwald: is that the typical strategy? Or is there some "readAll"? |
| 09:43:34 | <AWizzArd> | hc: si |
| 09:44:14 | <AWizzArd> | hc: I find Servant also useful when I NOT want to generate JS clients from the API. This declarative nature is nice. |
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| 09:44:55 | <hc> | true :) |
| 09:44:58 | <AWizzArd> | hc: but then again Servant gives me parameters as Maybes. Is there a way to specify: „Hey, call this handler only in case that *all* of them are Justified”? |
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| 09:45:10 | <AWizzArd> | Justified = non-Nothing |
| 09:45:36 | <AWizzArd> | (If you wrap something in a Just then you just Justified it) |
| 09:45:52 | <maerwald> | AWizzArd: I personally find all that little gain for the increased cognitive noise |
| 09:46:31 | <AWizzArd> | maerwald: I will be using Snap in that service now. It seems to be a bit simpler, yet more manual. |
| 09:47:28 | <AWizzArd> | maerwald: So how do you work with a Post request that contains a json body? body <- readRequestBody (1024*30); case eitherDecode body of ... ? Like that? |
| 09:48:00 | <maerwald> | I don't recall :D |
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| 09:48:49 | <AWizzArd> | Btw: Aeson – what is the difference between a) eitherDecode and b) eitherDecode' ? |
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| 09:49:42 | <hc> | hmm, strict vs nonstrict? lemme check the docs |
| 09:50:09 | <hc> | ah no, one fails and the other returns an error on parse problems |
| 09:50:12 | <dminuoso> | strictness in conversion checking |
| 09:50:24 | <hc> | ah true |
| 09:50:25 | <dminuoso> | decode' strictly performs conversion, decode is lazy |
| 09:50:45 | <hc> | no wait! yes, it is about lazy/strictness after all :) |
| 09:50:52 | <dminuoso> | See https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aeson-1.5.4.0/docs/Data-Aeson.html#v:json |
| 09:50:55 | <dminuoso> | (And below) |
| 09:51:26 | <hc> | ah cool. both functions parse immediately so cannot lazily fail later |
| 09:51:29 | <AWizzArd> | And then eitherDecodeStrict vs eitherDecodeStrict' |
| 09:52:00 | <AWizzArd> | dminuoso: seems that’s it, json vs json' |
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| 10:31:58 | hackage | th-abstraction 0.4.0.0 - Nicer interface for reified information about data types https://hackage.haskell.org/package/th-abstraction-0.4.0.0 (ryanglscott) |
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| 11:44:59 | <arahael> | Do the videos on the haskell.org website have any captions or transcripts? |
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| 12:03:28 | hackage | cabal-cache 1.0.2.1 - CI Assistant for Haskell projects https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cabal-cache-1.0.2.1 (haskellworks) |
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| 12:26:27 | hackage | th-compat 0.1 - Backward- (and forward-)compatible Quote and Code types https://hackage.haskell.org/package/th-compat-0.1 (ryanglscott) |
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| 12:31:10 | <maralorn> | "justMakeTheDamnThingTypecheck :: foral a b. a -> b" ? |
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| 12:31:59 | <dminuoso> | Let's see if it exists |
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| 12:32:02 | <dminuoso> | % :t justMakeTheDamnThingTypecheck |
| 12:32:03 | <yahb> | dminuoso: a -> b |
| 12:32:09 | <dminuoso> | Oh, who'd have guessed. |
| 12:32:19 | × | ryansmccoy quits (~ryansmcco@193.37.254.27) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 12:33:00 | <maralorn> | Wait what?^^ |
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| 12:33:18 | <merijn> | I'll take "What is unsafeCoerce?" for 500, Alex. |
| 12:33:22 | <maralorn> | You have been secretely querying yahb, haven't you? |
| 12:33:22 | <merijn> | :t unsafeCoerce |
| 12:33:24 | <lambdabot> | error: Variable not in scope: unsafeCoerce |
| 12:33:29 | <merijn> | % :t unsafeCoerce |
| 12:33:30 | <yahb> | merijn: a -> b |
| 12:33:47 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: I'd never do that for effect. |
| 12:33:48 | <merijn> | maralorn: Enjoy your one way ticket to segfault city ;) |
| 12:33:58 | <dminuoso> | ;) |
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| 12:34:30 | <maralorn> | ^^ |
| 12:34:38 | <dminuoso> | merijn: Oh I have a valid and safe use case of unsafeCoerce. |
| 12:34:42 | <maralorn> | "I'd never do that for effect." -> unsafePerformIO |
| 12:35:43 | <dminuoso> | So I have a particular take on a hererogenous, type safe, map.. which is implemented as `Map Integer Any` under the hood.. |
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| 12:36:16 | <dminuoso> | So upon accessing, I unsafeCoerce things into the right thing, but I prove the correctness of it all in the type system. |
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| 12:36:51 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: unsafePerformIO is boring. I prefer accursedUnutterablePerformIO. |
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| 12:37:05 | <dminuoso> | Eliding internal mutable buffers saves memory. |
| 12:37:13 | <dminuoso> | It's very efficient. |
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| 12:46:01 | <Guest_71> | Im having trouble downloading haskell for mac |
| 12:46:07 | <Guest_71> | can some1 help me |
| 12:46:13 | <maerwald> | yes |
| 12:46:50 | <Guest_71> | it says cannot install the software because it is not currently avaliable from the software update server |
| 12:46:58 | <maerwald> | what software |
| 12:47:04 | <Guest_71> | curl --proto '=https' --tlsv1.2 -sSf https://get-ghcup.haskell.org | sh |
| 12:47:09 | <Guest_71> | this crap |
| 12:47:14 | <Guest_71> | GHC |
| 12:47:27 | × | thir quits (~thir@p200300f27f0fc60094e773283d7bf825.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
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| 12:49:11 | <maerwald> | that's an excellent question |
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| 12:51:55 | <Guest_71> | any ideas? |
| 12:52:09 | <yushyin> | you must be right about that course, maerwald. |
| 12:52:58 | <maerwald> | I don't have a mac, but the script requires certain tools that the system must install (such as curl, tar, ...). Afaik mac tries to pull these from somewhere |
| 12:53:12 | <maerwald> | It seems to fail doing so |
| 12:54:17 | <merijn> | maerwald: curl and tar are always installed, afaik |
| 12:54:19 | <dminuoso> | This seems like an Xcode error. |
| 12:54:39 | <merijn> | xcode errors shouldn't kick in until you try to compile/link, though |
| 12:54:39 | <dminuoso> | Since that's the error you'd get from `xcode-select --install` in some situations. |
| 12:55:01 | <dminuoso> | Does ghcup invoke xcode-select? |
| 12:55:14 | <maerwald> | dminuoso: no, but I think that happens implicitly |
| 12:55:21 | <maerwald> | that's what ppl told me |
| 12:55:25 | <dminuoso> | Implicitly when? |
| 12:55:35 | <maerwald> | Good question |
| 12:55:39 | <merijn> | so far I don't see an error message, so it's impossible to say |
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| 12:56:05 | <dminuoso> | Guest_71: Can you share the full terminal output since you ran that command in a gist/pastie/snippet? |
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| 12:56:37 | <dminuoso> | merijn: He mentioend the error message above. And that's most definitely an error message from xcode-select :) |
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| 12:57:57 | <Guest_71> | it didn't appear in the console it was a pop up box |
| 12:58:01 | <Guest_71> | if that helps |
| 12:58:17 | <dminuoso> | Ah, still share the output. |
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| 12:58:57 | <Guest_71> | his script will download and install the following binaries: * ghcup - The Haskell toolchain installer (for managing GHC/cabal versions) * ghc - The Glasgow Haskell Compiler * cabal - The Cabal build toolghcup installs only into the following directory,which can be removed anytime: /Users/MacBook-Pro/.ghcupPress ENTER to proceed or |
| 12:58:58 | <Guest_71> | ctrl-c to abort.Note that this script can be re-run at any given time. % Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time Time Current Dload Upload Total Spent Left Speed100 8345k 100 8345k 0 0 7880k 0 0:00:01 0:00:01 --:--:-- 7880k[ Info ] Upgrading GHCup...[ Info ] |
| 12:58:58 | <Guest_71> | downloading: https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghcup/0.1.11/x86_64-apple-darwin-ghcup-0.1.11 % Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time Time Current Dload Upload Total Spent Left Speed 40 8501k 40 3430k 0 0 7177k 0 0:00:01 --:--:-- 0:00:01 7177k100 8501k 100 8501k 0 |
| 12:58:59 | <Guest_71> | 0 9487k 0 --:--:-- --:--:-- --:--:-- 9487k[ Info ] verifying digest of: ghcup[ Info ] Successfully upgraded GHCup to version 0.1.11System requirements Note: On OS X, in the course of running ghcup you will be given a dialog box to install the command line tools. Accept and the requirements will be installed for you. You will then need to |
| 12:58:59 | <Guest_71> | run the command again.Press ENTER to proceed or ctrl-c to abort.Installation may take a while.[ Info ] verifying digest of: ghc-8.8.4-x86_64-apple-darwin.tar.xz[ Info ] Unpacking: ghc-8.8.4-x86_64-apple-darwin.tar.xz to /var/folders/98/8p2q1z693kgd515zsjklyg5c0000gn/T/ghcup-6LMxdn[ Info ] Installing GHC (this may take a while)[ ghc-configure ] |
| 12:59:00 | <Guest_71> | not found (too old?)[ ghc-configure ] checking for gcc... gcc[ ghc-configure ] checking whether the C compiler works... no[ ghc-configure ] configure: error: in `/private/var/folders/98/8p2q1z693kgd515zsjklyg5c0000gn/T/ghcup-6LMxdn/ghc-8.8.4':[ ghc-configure ] configure: error: C compiler cannot create executables[ ghc-configure ] See `config.log' |
| 12:59:00 | <Guest_71> | for more details[ Error ] Build failed with NonZeroExit 77 "./configure" ["--prefix=/Users/MacBook-Pro/.ghcup/ghc/8.8.4"] Check the logs at "/Users/MacBook-Pro/.ghcup/logs" and the build directory "/var/folders/98/8p2q1z693kgd515zsjklyg5c0000gn/T/ghcup-6LMxdn" for more clues. Make sure to clean up |
| 12:59:00 | × | Guest_71 quits (c13ddbc8@edu185.eduroam.aber.ac.uk) (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) |
| 12:59:10 | ChanServ | sets mode +o ski |
| 12:59:14 | <maerwald> | for some reason, I know this would happen |
| 12:59:18 | <yushyin> | me too |
| 12:59:33 | ChanServ | sets mode -o ski |
| 12:59:49 | <dminuoso> | Doesn't help for their Haskell experience. :< |
| 13:00:00 | → | guest12 joins (c13ddbc8@edu185.eduroam.aber.ac.uk) |
| 13:00:04 | <guest12> | okay im that same person it just kicked me |
| 13:00:09 | <maerwald> | :D |
| 13:00:14 | <ski> | please don't paste lots of lines into the channel |
| 13:00:15 | <dminuoso> | guest12: Yeah, use a website to paste content, dont flood the channel. :) |
| 13:00:25 | <dminuoso> | You can use https://paste.tomsmeding.com/ |
| 13:00:32 | <guest12> | okay thanks xD |
| 13:00:41 | <Cheery> | gist github is also good if you happen to have github account. |
| 13:00:55 | <dminuoso> | Always good to donate your data to Microsoft. |
| 13:00:59 | × | barzo quits (~barzo@95.70.186.248) (Quit: Quit) |
| 13:01:34 | <guest12> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/iIICrGHx |
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| 13:02:31 | <gehmehgeh> | guest12: what does "cc --version" say? |
| 13:02:48 | <merijn> | ok, yeah, that's missing xcode |
| 13:02:50 | <gehmehgeh> | (on the command line) |
| 13:02:54 | <dminuoso> | guest12: Did you ever get a dialog box to install the command line tools? |
| 13:03:18 | <guest12> | yes I did and thats where I got the error |
| 13:03:47 | <gehmehgeh> | guest12: can you type "cc --version", please? |
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| 13:04:42 | <gehmehgeh> | guest12: also "gcc --version" |
| 13:04:48 | <gehmehgeh> | cc should be Clang |
| 13:04:49 | <gehmehgeh> | I guess |
| 13:04:51 | <guest12> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/Esfn48xS |
| 13:04:52 | <gehmehgeh> | (on MacOS) |
| 13:04:57 | <guest12> | then I get that with a dialog box |
| 13:05:28 | <guest12> | same with gcc |
| 13:05:53 | <dminuoso> | guest12: Out of curiosity, which macOS version are you on? |
| 13:06:08 | <gehmehgeh> | guest12: type "uname -a" |
| 13:06:09 | <guest12> | catalina |
| 13:06:37 | <dminuoso> | Brave thing, to be running on most recent macOS. :> |
| 13:07:06 | × | DirefulSalt quits (DirefulSal@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/direfulsalt) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 13:07:34 | <dminuoso> | Perhaps the apple repos are bugged at the moment |
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| 13:07:48 | <dminuoso> | Do you have an icloud account? |
| 13:07:50 | <gehmehgeh> | guest12: I typed it into a search engine, and apparently, MacOS will install the necessary development tools after asking you |
| 13:07:52 | <merijn> | Try running "xcode-select --install" |
| 13:08:05 | <gehmehgeh> | guest12: yes, waht merijn said for example |
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| 13:08:11 | <gehmehgeh> | guest12: or just type "make" or "gcc" or whatever |
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| 13:08:42 | <guest12> | same thing happens in the middle of the finding software bar it comes up with that message |
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| 13:08:50 | <dminuoso> | guest12: Alright, then install it manually from https://developer.apple.com/download/more/?=command%20line%20tools |
| 13:08:58 | <dminuoso> | You're tripping into Apple issues. |
| 13:09:56 | <dminuoso> | (Note you will need an iCloud account to reach that) |
| 13:10:07 | <dminuoso> | Or rather, an Apple Id. |
| 13:10:09 | <guest12> | yeye which do i download |
| 13:10:16 | <dminuoso> | Dunno, what do you see there? |
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| 13:10:59 | <guest12> | A lot of stuff xcode 12, command line tools for xcode lots and lots of stuff |
| 13:10:59 | <dminuoso> | Ah the top one |
| 13:11:05 | <Squarism> | Does there exist some type description language (think protocol buffers/openapi/xml-schema/thrift) that has sum/product types and type functions (atleast paramterized types)? Something that handles the basics of haskell type system. |
| 13:11:07 | <dminuoso> | Command Line Tools for XCode 12 |
| 13:11:08 | <dminuoso> | should be fine |
| 13:11:14 | <guest12> | okay |
| 13:11:22 | <dminuoso> | Squarism: servant? |
| 13:11:34 | <dminuoso> | or, are you thinking something else? |
| 13:12:02 | <dminuoso> | (you can encode anonymous sum/product types up to isomorphism with Either and (,), or using custom data types) |
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| 13:12:30 | <Squarism> | dminuoso, I meant a textual representation that was at least aimed to be language agnostic. |
| 13:12:45 | <dminuoso> | What would that language describe? |
| 13:13:19 | → | aplainzetakind joins (~johndoe@captainludd.powered.by.lunarbnc.net) |
| 13:13:20 | <Squarism> | data structures (or types in haskell terms) |
| 13:13:33 | <Squarism> | possibly functions |
| 13:14:57 | hackage | th-lift 0.8.2 - Derive Template Haskell's Lift class for datatypes. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/th-lift-0.8.2 (ryanglscott) |
| 13:14:59 | <Cheery> | there is a project that explores that. |
| 13:15:22 | → | zariuq joins (~zar@fw2.ciirc.cvut.cz) |
| 13:16:57 | <Cheery> | lol you need to remember the url to find it |
| 13:17:02 | <Cheery> | https://typedefs.com/ |
| 13:17:06 | <lortabac> | Squarism: you can achieve something similar with GraphQL, but it's a little cumbersome |
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| 13:17:43 | <guest12> | Its fixed thanks guys |
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| 13:17:56 | <lortabac> | also, you can encode sum types in OpenAPI IIRC |
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| 13:23:53 | <alp> | thrift too IIRC |
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| 13:39:20 | → | kw joins (ac4a6125@cpe-172-74-97-37.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 13:40:45 | <kw> | Anyone know why hlint suggests writing `[x]` instead of `x : []`? |
| 13:41:03 | <dminuoso> | kw: because its more idiomatic to use the [...] notation than : |
| 13:41:06 | <merijn> | kw: Because hlint is super opinionated |
| 13:41:24 | <merijn> | kw: And it's opinions reflect those of the author, not necessarily the wider community |
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| 13:41:54 | <kw> | That makes sense. |
| 13:41:56 | <dminuoso> | I personally prefer `singleton x` in some code paths, where `singleton x = pure x` |
| 13:42:30 | <kw> | Just always confuses me when constructor syntax like `x : xs` is mixed with literal syntax. |
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| 13:42:50 | <kw> | But obviously you can't use literal syntax to deconstruct an arbitrary list. |
| 13:43:08 | <merijn> | kw: You can |
| 13:43:20 | <kw> | Wait, how? |
| 13:43:32 | <kw> | Do you mean with comprehensions? |
| 13:43:34 | <merijn> | > case [1,2] of [x,y] -> "yay!"; _ -> "nay!" |
| 13:43:36 | <lambdabot> | "yay!" |
| 13:43:39 | <merijn> | > case [1,2,3] of [x,y] -> "yay!"; _ -> "nay!" |
| 13:43:42 | <lambdabot> | "nay!" |
| 13:43:47 | <dminuoso> | I think by "arbitrary" they mean it in the sense of `f ([x,y,z]:_) = ...` |
| 13:43:54 | <dminuoso> | (Which doesn't make sense, of course) |
| 13:43:55 | <kw> | OK, fair enough if I don't need the tail... |
| 13:44:05 | <int-e> | but it's odd when your cases are [], [x], [x,y] and then x:y:z:xs |
| 13:44:07 | <dminuoso> | kw: no, this is an exact list match |
| 13:44:14 | <dminuoso> | it doesnt throw the tail away, it just doesnt match |
| 13:44:19 | <merijn> | kw: No, "[x,y]" is equivalent to matching "x : (y : [])" |
| 13:44:30 | <dminuoso> | So if you want something like `f (x:y:z:_) = ..` you cant use the [] syntax for that |
| 13:44:32 | <merijn> | Note that the 2nd example returned "nay" |
| 13:45:03 | <dminuoso> | kw: Anyhow. If you find the `x:[]` to work better, maybe for symmetry reasons wrt to the pattern matching on the left side, that's perfectly fine. :) |
| 13:45:10 | <kw> | Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I've got a function that has special cases for lists of length 0, 1, 2, and 3, and has a recursive case for lists of length greater than 3. |
| 13:45:39 | <merijn> | kw: writing out those fixed cases with literal syntax works fine\ |
| 13:45:49 | <dminuoso> | `f [] = ...; f [x] = ...; f [x,y] = ...; f [x,y,z] = ...; f xs = ...` |
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| 13:48:36 | <dminuoso> | `t :: IO [Pg.Only T]` how do I efficiently turn that into `IO [T]`? |
| 13:48:54 | <dminuoso> | (Only is just a newtype) |
| 13:49:06 | <kw> | I guess it really does come down to opinion. For me `case xs of { [] -> z; [x] -> f x; [x1, x2] -> g x1 x2; x1 : x2 : x3 : xs -> h x1 x2 x3 (loop xs)}` seemed really odd. But it does make the recursive case stand out. |
| 13:49:10 | <dminuoso> | `newtype Only a = Only { fromOnly :: a }` |
| 13:49:14 | <merijn> | dminuoso: "fmap (fmap getOnly)" :p |
| 13:49:14 | <[exa]> | dminuoso: fromOnly? |
| 13:49:25 | <merijn> | Or just "coerce" |
| 13:49:40 | <dminuoso> | merijn: Will double fmap not cause it to walk over the list unnecessarily? |
| 13:50:07 | <dminuoso> | % coerce [Produt 5, Product 6] :: [Integer] |
| 13:50:08 | <yahb> | dminuoso: ; <interactive>:137:9: error:; * Data constructor not in scope: Produt :: t0 -> Product a0; * Perhaps you meant one of these: `Product' (imported from Control.Monad.RWS), variable `product' (imported from Prelude) |
| 13:50:14 | <dminuoso> | % coerce [Product 5, Product 6] :: [Integer] |
| 13:50:14 | <yahb> | dminuoso: [5,6] |
| 13:50:18 | <dminuoso> | Ah. Mmm. |
| 13:51:08 | <dminuoso> | % coerce (pure [Product 5, Product 6] :: IO [Product Integer]) :: IO [Integer] |
| 13:51:08 | <yahb> | dminuoso: [5,6] |
| 13:51:19 | <dminuoso> | merijn: I see. Somehow I didnt realize I could coerce through IO. :) |
| 13:51:42 | <kw> | Is there any efficiency advantage in GHC to using list literal syntax? |
| 13:51:59 | <merijn> | No |
| 13:52:06 | <dminuoso> | kw: list literals are just syntax sugar around : |
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| 13:52:58 | <kw> | That's a relief. I remember reading somewhere that GHC would compile literal lists to arrays. |
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| 13:53:29 | <int-e> | There's some special treatment of string literals. |
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| 13:54:29 | <kw> | Oh, maybe that was it. I'm not using strings, so I guess it doesn't matter. |
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| 13:55:12 | <kw> | Thanks everyone. |
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| 13:55:40 | <merijn> | kw: IF ghc did that, there's no reason why it couldn't to the exact same thing for lists written using :, though |
| 13:56:47 | <kw> | I know, I shouldn't doubt GHC's intelligence. Was just imagining that it might be something special that applies only to the sugar. |
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| 13:59:57 | hackage | jose 0.8.4 - Javascript Object Signing and Encryption and JSON Web Token library https://hackage.haskell.org/package/jose-0.8.4 (frasertweedale) |
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| 14:18:31 | <z0> | im doing advent of code 2019 and I think I found a typo in the last example @ day 5 part 2. has anyone done it and wants to verify? |
| 14:19:42 | <merijn> | Seems unlikely, since I'm pretty sure I completed that just fine :p |
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| 14:20:45 | <z0> | i also completed, but i tested all examples given and this is the only one failing |
| 14:20:55 | <tdammers> | yeah, AoC tends to be reviewed insanely well, which is kind of prudent considering the audience |
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| 14:22:44 | <z0> | well... i'm very suspicious because you can see the list ends in "4,20,1105,1,46,98,99" and I get the correct results BUT the next code is not 99 (halt) |
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| 14:23:22 | <z0> | 4 (the output instruction) has 2 parameters and if you move the pointer you go to 1105 and not 99 |
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| 14:24:32 | <tdammers> | I can't remember the details, but I think I initially misread something in the spec that made this example fail |
| 14:24:47 | <tdammers> | meaning that it's probably not the example, but your brain that's wrong |
| 14:24:50 | <dminuoso> | z0: hold on, why does 4 have 2 parameters? |
| 14:25:01 | <dminuoso> | It has only one. |
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| 14:25:42 | <z0> | sorry, i meant 1 |
| 14:25:57 | <z0> | the pointer moves 2 addresse |
| 14:26:41 | <z0> | which puts it in the 1105 instruction. if i let it run it will eventually halt with the output 0 |
| 14:28:12 | <dminuoso> | z0: I dont quite understand what confusion you have., |
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| 14:29:00 | <z0> | as i understood, as soon as the output is /= 0, the next instruction HAS to be 99, right? |
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| 14:30:22 | <z0> | in this case, the output i get from that last 4 is the right output for all 3 cases (< 9, ==9, > 9) |
| 14:30:28 | hackage | cli-extras 0.1.0.0 - Miscellaneous utilities for building and working with command line interfaces https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cli-extras-0.1.0.0 (RyanTrinkle) |
| 14:30:29 | <z0> | but the next instruction is not 99 |
| 14:30:53 | <z0> | *(<8,==8,>8) |
| 14:31:28 | hackage | nix-thunk 0.1.0.0, cli-nix 0.1.0.0, cli-git 0.1.0.0 (RyanTrinkle) |
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| 14:33:01 | <dminuoso> | 16:29:00 z0 | as i understood, as soon as the output is /= 0, the next instruction HAS to be 99, right? |
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| 14:33:07 | <dminuoso> | The way I read it, that sounds wrong. |
| 14:34:37 | <dminuoso> | Consider the context of it all |
| 14:35:48 | <dminuoso> | This is diagnostic routines. A diagnostic is finished by writing some output, and it outputs 0 if it was successful, and a number if there was a deviation from the expected value |
| 14:36:05 | <dminuoso> | There's nothing to suggest a failed diagnostic must halt the program. |
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| 14:39:06 | <turion> | Is there a standard solution for building QuickCheck/SmallCheck/etc. generators for datatypes with constructors with existential types? |
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| 14:40:00 | <dminuoso> | turion: Mmm, how is that different from any other datatype? |
| 14:40:23 | <turion> | E.g. I have a free category type |
| 14:40:23 | <turion> | data FreeCat c where |
| 14:40:23 | <turion> | Id :: FreeCat c a a |
| 14:40:23 | <turion> | Seq :: FreeCat cat a b -> FreeCat cat b c |
| 14:40:23 | <turion> | Free :: cat a b -> FreeCat cat a b |
| 14:40:47 | <turion> | When I want to generate a Seq, I need to choose a _type_ b |
| 14:41:04 | <ski> | signature of `Seq' looks incomplete |
| 14:41:06 | <turion> | Of course I could always choose the same one, but that would be boring |
| 14:41:25 | <turion> | Whoops right, thanks. |
| 14:41:25 | <turion> | Seq :: FreeCat cat a b -> FreeCat cat b c -> FreeCat cat a c |
| 14:41:54 | <int-e> | z0: you're reading too much inbto "immediately followed by"... 1105,1,n is an unconditional jump to offset n; here n=46 and the operation there is the 99 you want. |
| 14:42:19 | <ski> | if you could have generation for `cat a b' pick an `a' or a `b' for you, given the other, then that could be useful, probably |
| 14:43:00 | <turion> | ski: What would be the type of such a generator? |
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| 14:45:16 | <ski> | hm, to a zeroth approximation, something like `Gen (exists b. cat a b)', but then one'd like to keep using that `b' onwards .. |
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| 14:49:26 | <turion> | ski: Yes. I guess there is a way to do this with an existential type somehow. Or maybe continuations...? But I'm wondering whether something like this has been studied systematically, because it must show up every time someone wants to write a generator for a GADT or existential type |
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| 14:51:33 | <ski> | if we imagine `class SomeArbitrary f where someArbitrary :: Gen (..f..)', one could have `instance SomeArbitrary (cat a) => SomeArbitrary (FreeCat cat a) where ..' with `someArbitrary :: Gen (exists b. SomeArbitrary (cat b) *> FreeCat cat a b)', maybe ? |
| 14:52:22 | <ski> | perhaps the constraint here could be an associated type |
| 14:52:40 | <z0> | dminuoso: "For each test, it will run an output instruction indicating how far the result of the test was from the expected value, where 0 means the test was successful. Non-zero outputs mean that a function is not working correctly; check the instructions that were run before the output instruction to see which one failed." |
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| 14:52:58 | <z0> | but ignoring this, it now works as supposed |
| 14:53:00 | <z0> | thanks |
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| 14:54:03 | <turion> | ski: I'm not sure how exactly the generator case for Seq typechecks |
| 14:54:05 | <Cale> | I can imagine writing a generator something like (Arbitrary b, CoArbitrary a) => FreeCat (->) a b |
| 14:54:32 | <Cale> | which generated Seq terms by picking from a finite list of types that are known to have Arbitrary and CoArbitrary instances |
| 14:54:46 | <z0> | int-e: maybe i read too much into the sentence I pasted above |
| 14:54:55 | <Cale> | oops |
| 14:55:05 | <Cale> | I meant Gen (FreeCat (->) a b) obviously |
| 14:55:13 | <ski> | Cale : imagine `cat' is a basic GADT ? |
| 14:55:38 | <turion> | Cale: Yes, I guess that can work. Is there a framework that does this? |
| 14:56:05 | <turion> | Imagine we'd go on and do free arrows, and we want to reuse this list of types, how to abstract it |
| 14:57:09 | <dminuoso> | z0: Still, where does it say it has to halt? |
| 14:58:11 | <Cale> | I was thinking cat is a category |
| 14:58:11 | <Cale> | No, you'd have to write the thing yourself, and it will include too many details of this structure to be really generalisable |
| 14:58:11 | <Cale> | Or maybe I just lack the imagination to figure out how to generalise it |
| 14:58:12 | <Cale> | But it won't be a difficult thing to write |
| 14:58:27 | <dminuoso> | z0: `Finally, the program will output a diagnostic code and immediately halt. ` means it will halt *after* the final diagnostic code. |
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| 14:59:07 | <Cale> | Oh, well, if you take a function of type (forall a b. (CoArbitrary a, Arbitrary b) => cat a b), that's the only real missing piece |
| 14:59:36 | <Cale> | Or you could just insist on an instance Arbitrary (cat a b) |
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| 15:00:13 | <turion> | Cale, let's assume we have (forall a b. (CoArbitrary a, Arbitrary b) => cat a b) already |
| 15:00:32 | <Cale> | It's the Free case which is more challenging than the Seq case. The Seq case just amounts to making a random decision about which type to factor through, and making acceptable choices for it |
| 15:01:00 | <turion> | Cale: It's this random decision of a type that I want to abstract |
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| 15:01:24 | <Cale> | oneof :: [Gen a] -> Gen a |
| 15:01:36 | <Cale> | ^^ use that :) |
| 15:01:40 | <z0> | dminuoso: well, you are not wrong :/ |
| 15:01:42 | <ski> | for some applications, it seems it would be eaiser to pick the value first, and let the choice of that decide the type |
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| 15:02:14 | <Cale> | You can imagine writing the generator which generates a random Seq term by always factoring through Integer |
| 15:02:21 | <Cale> | Or String or some such |
| 15:02:25 | <Cale> | right? |
| 15:02:28 | <turion> | We can also represent the free category differently: |
| 15:02:28 | <turion> | data FreeCat cat a b where |
| 15:02:28 | <turion> | Id :: FreeCat cat a a |
| 15:02:28 | <turion> | Comp :: cat a b -> FreeCat cat b c -> FreeCat cat a c |
| 15:02:35 | <Cale> | So you can combine those together with oneof |
| 15:02:53 | <turion> | ski: Yes, maybe there is a generator for cat a b that knows what the output type should be |
| 15:03:10 | <turion> | Cale: Yes, that part I know how to do. It's more that I'd like to abstract it |
| 15:03:19 | <turion> | Or rather to see whether someone has already done that |
| 15:03:28 | <Cale> | If you're writing the general instance, it'll just amount to pretty much Seq arbitrary arbitrary a bunch of times, but with type signatures on the arbitrary terms |
| 15:03:42 | <Cale> | er, Seq <$> arbitrary <*> arbitrary rather |
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| 15:03:48 | <turion> | Because it seems like an ubiquitous problem |
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| 15:03:55 | <ski> | e.g. perhaps you have `data Fun :: * -> * -> * where Not :: Fun Bool Bool; Chr :: Fun Int Char; Ord :: Fun Char Int; Succ :: Fun Int Int; IsSpace :: Fun Char Bool', or something like that |
| 15:03:57 | <Cale> | hmm |
| 15:04:00 | <z0> | dminuoso: teaches me to keep no assumptions |
| 15:04:11 | <ski> | and then you want to generate `FreeCat Fun' |
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| 15:04:50 | <ski> | turion : i don't think that representation makes a huge difference to the problem here |
| 15:04:58 | <turion> | ski: That's a good example |
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| 15:05:03 | <Cale> | Oh, also, Id will be interesting, actually |
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| 15:05:11 | <Cale> | hmm |
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| 15:05:22 | <Cale> | Unless you demand Typeable a, Typeable b in your instance head |
| 15:05:38 | <Cale> | So that you know when you're allowed to attempt to produce Id terms |
| 15:05:39 | <turion> | ski: No the representation isn't that important, I agree. (That was kind of the point. I wanted to draw the attention away from the difference between Seq and Free) |
| 15:07:11 | <ski> | Cale : hm, point |
| 15:07:18 | <ski> | well |
| 15:07:37 | <ski> | Cale : i guess you could allow `Id' for any `a' of the right kind |
| 15:08:02 | <turion> | Assume I have an interpreter for this Fun type and I want to quickcheck that it preserves composition from FreeCat Fun to its semantic domain. But in a very general setting, where I don't have to fix the input and output types |
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| 15:09:12 | <Cale> | ski: Well, if you're writing an instance (...) => Arbitrary (FreeCat cat a b), you need to know whether a ~ b so that you know whether it's valid to generate Id at all. |
| 15:09:34 | <Cale> | If a and b are not the same type, you can't generate Id terms, but you can still generate Comp/Free terms |
| 15:09:47 | <ski> | yea. but i'm more considering `Arbitrary (exists b. FreeCat cat a b)' :) |
| 15:09:56 | <Cale> | hmmm |
| 15:10:03 | <Cale> | fair enough :) |
| 15:10:16 | <ski> | (since we need something like that, for the composition) |
| 15:10:47 | <ski> | (or else, i guess, randomly generating `b0' and `b1', which are `Typeable', and then comparing that they're the same ..) |
| 15:10:56 | <ski> | (.. but that's not that nice) |
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| 15:11:27 | <turion> | Maybe at the end we need to build an Arbitrary (exists a b . FreeCat cat a b) |
| 15:11:55 | <turion> | (possibly with Typeable, Arbitrary, Coarbitrary etc. thrown in |
| 15:12:27 | hackage | th-orphans 0.13.11 - Orphan instances for TH datatypes https://hackage.haskell.org/package/th-orphans-0.13.11 (ryanglscott) |
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| 15:13:53 | <ski> | turion : the `Arbitrary' and `Coarbitrary' would be if `cat' say had constructors taking functions |
| 15:18:22 | <turion> | ski: Yes |
| 15:18:51 | <turion> | For your example it's not needed, right |
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| 15:18:58 | <ski> | right |
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| 15:19:12 | <turion> | I was implicitly thinking about my use case, which is a kind of free arrow |
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| 15:21:43 | <turion> | This kind of problem sounds like something that someone has written a functional pearl about 10 years ago |
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| 15:25:02 | <Cale> | Ah, writing the instance, you end up wanting to know not only that there are instances of Arbitrary for (cat a String) and (cat String a) for example, but also for (cat String String) and all combinations of intermediate types you plan to use |
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| 15:27:01 | <Cale> | So the instance head has O(n^2) constraints on it if you want n intermediate types :) |
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| 15:27:33 | <ski> | yes, hence i wanted `someArbitrary :: Gen (exists b. SomeArbitrary (cat b) *> FreeCat cat a b)', for `instance SomeArbitrary (cat a) => SomeArbitrary (FreeCat cat a)' |
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| 15:28:14 | <Cale> | tsk, wildcards not allowed in instance declarations |
| 15:28:17 | <Cale> | annoying |
| 15:28:33 | <ski> | so, when it's picking a new type for you, it should also give you an instance for how you could continue from that type |
| 15:28:43 | <ski> | (this is very specific to `FreeCat', obviously) |
| 15:29:01 | <Cale> | yeah |
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| 15:29:15 | <Cale> | You could also just demand everything you'll end up needing |
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| 15:29:35 | <Cale> | It's also probably sufficient just to have a single intermediate type, in practice. :P |
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| 15:29:58 | <ski> | you mean for other cases than `FreeCat' ? |
| 15:30:07 | <Cale> | No |
| 15:30:19 | <Squarism> | Cheery, thanks for the link. Thats exactly what I'm after |
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| 15:31:38 | <ski> | hm, sorry. for some reason, i misread you as saying "insufficient", rather than "sufficient" |
| 15:32:22 | <Cale> | https://dpaste.com/5DUQARMCK -- anyway, something like this works |
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| 15:34:07 | <Cale> | Probably () would be a more useful choice than either Integer or String as a second type. Pick something with lots of values and something with few values :) |
| 15:34:17 | <Cale> | Maybe throw in Void |
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| 15:35:04 | <z0> | /quit |
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| 15:35:40 | <monochrom> | Nice, GHC 9.0.1 alpha1 was released yesterday |
| 15:37:07 | <monochrom> | onoes, the GHC user's guide will use the readthedocs format :) |
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| 15:39:29 | <turion> | Ideally, have lots of different types, and ideally tweak the intermediate types depending over what we want the free category |
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| 15:40:37 | <turion> | E.g. in FreeCat (->) a b we basically want everything we can think of that has (CoArbitrary a, Arbitrary b). In ski's example, we want just the types that occur in Fun |
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| 15:43:50 | <ski> | turion : could also allow other types to be used, with `Id' |
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| 15:44:47 | <Cale> | With newer GHCs, you could use QuantifiedConstraints to get the thing you want in the (->) case |
| 15:45:24 | <Cale> | It's also probably possible to construct a type family that lets you turn a list of types into a list of all the needed Arbitrary constraints between them |
| 15:45:37 | <turion> | ski: Hmm true. So maybe we always want as many types as possible. But sometimes we'll have to restrict to the ones that are specified in a constructor |
| 15:45:42 | <Cale> | (rather, into the combination of those constraints directly |
| 15:45:43 | <Cale> | ) |
| 15:46:57 | <ski> | turion : perhaps there could be some way to "inject" which types one'd like it to consider for existentials .. not sure how one'd want that to work, though |
| 15:47:17 | <turion> | ski: Like a list of proxies hidden in an existential type |
| 15:47:26 | <Cale> | Also, note that you don't have to stick to a single Arbitrary instance. |
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| 15:48:04 | <turion> | Cale: What do you mean? |
| 15:48:29 | <Cale> | You can write a bunch of these Gen values for various circumstances, and use them via QuickCheck's forAll |
| 15:48:35 | <Cale> | forAll :: (Show a, Testable prop) => Gen a -> (a -> prop) -> Property |
| 15:48:49 | <turion> | Ah yes :) that will sometimes make it easier |
| 15:48:52 | <monochrom> | Yikes, new extension LexicalNegation. If you turn it on, then "x -y" means "x (negate y)", and "(- b)" means the section "subtract b". |
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| 15:50:37 | <dolio> | Oh, it turns off unary minus with spaces? |
| 15:50:39 | <Cale> | monochrom: I hate the direction that GHC's been going lately |
| 15:51:03 | <ski> | Cale : syntactically ? |
| 15:51:07 | <monochrom> | I have a conspiracy theory! LinearTypes was a smoke screen to distract people from noticing the really breaking changes like LexicalNegation and simplified subsumption. :) |
| 15:51:18 | <Cale> | ski: Syntactically, semantically... |
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| 15:51:36 | <monochrom> | Yeah dolio, basically that. |
| 15:52:25 | <Cale> | LinearTypes is a disaster unfolding in slow motion, then there's all these little stupid syntactic extensions that everyone's going to have to deal with. |
| 15:52:36 | <dolio> | Simplified subsumption I can kind of get behind, if it's what I'm thinking of. |
| 15:52:43 | <monochrom> | Well, also, "x -y" meaning "x (negate y)" is turning on unary minus with absence of spaces. :) |
| 15:53:25 | <monochrom> | "\x -> sin x == sin -x" is now a valid property for quickcheck :) |
| 15:53:40 | <monochrom> | err, s/sin/cos/ |
| 15:53:58 | <dolio> | Right. I just thought it was adding the rule about -x, not taking away - x. |
| 15:54:27 | <Cale> | I feel like RecordDotSyntax was the kind of thing that newbies would always ask for like a decade ago, but there were always good reasons not to do it. Now we've just gone ahead and ignored all those good reasons, and implemented something which makes it easy to write terms that nobody knows how to parse |
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| 15:55:11 | <Cale> | (there's a rule for disambiguation, but it's not obvious) |
| 15:55:37 | <monochrom> | (basically using spaces again, yeah) |
| 15:55:59 | <maerwald> | magical spaces |
| 15:56:07 | <Cale> | It honestly makes me want to fork the entire language |
| 15:56:31 | <maerwald> | reminds me of the `return foo;` vs `foo` syntax in rust, which is nonsense imo |
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| 15:56:40 | <dolio> | Taking away spaced unary minus might actually be good in that situation, I guess, because it's one less complication. |
| 15:56:51 | <Cale> | GHC doesn't need new language extensions, it needs to be simpler and produce better code in less time |
| 15:56:52 | <dolio> | Like "-x `mod` y" vs "- x `mod` y". |
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| 15:57:08 | <Cale> | The GHC API needs to be more usable |
| 15:58:03 | <monochrom> | As usual, LinearTypes earns paper credits, improving GHC API doesn't. |
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| 15:58:48 | <maerwald> | monochrom: dunno, by now there should be enough companies caring about these mundane things... I'm not sure what's going on |
| 15:58:52 | <dolio> | It's a little odd that - binds tighter than function application, though. |
| 15:59:06 | <Cale> | dolio: Yeah, that's happening with dot now too |
| 15:59:19 | <dolio> | Well, I'm not surprised by that. |
| 15:59:20 | <Cale> | It's disgusting |
| 15:59:53 | <dolio> | I expect "we need to import syntax from JavaScript" to be nonsense. |
| 15:59:54 | <Cale> | The *one* rule about precedence that we used to be able to rely on |
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| 16:00:04 | <monochrom> | Ahhh I see now, two-for-one deal, if you can use spacing to change precedence, you may as well do it to both - and . and nail two popular demands. |
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| 16:01:04 | <dolio> | Anyhow, this is why "avoid (success at all costs)" is the wrong reading. :) |
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| 16:08:36 | <zincy_> | Cale: I agree, newbies at my last workplace were all over RecordDotSyntax |
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| 16:10:23 | <zincy_> | Why is linear types going to be a disaster? |
| 16:11:55 | <Cale> | Because it's not very useful, and yet in order to attempt to use it in various circumstances, people are going to want linear-generalised versions of various higher order things from every package in the known universe. |
| 16:12:02 | <quicksilver> | I was always afraid this would happen with record syntax |
| 16:12:15 | <Cale> | This will clutter the world, and yet serve very little purpose |
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| 16:14:26 | <zincy_> | Cale: Yeah it seems like a lot of work for a solution to a very niche set of problems |
| 16:14:36 | <Cale> | A lot of the downsides of attempting to use linear types are not particularly obvious at first sight. For example, the paper which introduced them includes as one of its examples, a socket library which could only be used if you never want to do any I/O in your server that could potentially throw an exception you might want to catch without taking down the entire server. |
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| 16:15:16 | <zincy_> | haha |
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| 16:15:31 | <Cale> | This is the kind of thing that beginners will hang themselves on, and blame Haskell's type system for being frustrating and incomprehensible, and the annoying thing is that in this case, they will be right. |
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| 16:16:16 | <zincy_> | Cale: Do you feel that there are too many obscure extensions on the market? |
| 16:16:21 | <Cale> | yes |
| 16:16:59 | <zincy_> | They feel a bit like pokemon. |
| 16:17:05 | <Cale> | I think it's long past time to stop making new extensions at least until people have better ideas |
| 16:17:18 | <zincy_> | In the old days you had ones you loved and new ones keep coming out and you dont care anymore |
| 16:18:09 | <quicksilver> | I don't mind a plethora of experimental extensions as long as they don't become a new default |
| 16:18:19 | <quicksilver> | I suppose that's hard to control/predict |
| 16:18:44 | <Cale> | The thing is, the language people have to learn is basically the union of all the extensions that exist |
| 16:18:55 | <int-e> | quicksilver: the problem with those extensions is somebody will use them :-/ |
| 16:18:57 | <Cale> | because once it's in GHC, someone's going to use it |
| 16:18:59 | <zincy_> | I thought Haskell would be great at "taming" bad programmers. But it is amazing the ingenuity Haskell can give you to create bad code. |
| 16:19:22 | <Cale> | Yeah, I've seen some remarkably terrible things done with singletons |
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| 16:19:52 | <zincy_> | Shudder |
| 16:19:53 | <Cale> | People using the type system to guarantee properties that nobody ever actually cared about, and which turn programming into a bureaucratic nightmate |
| 16:19:57 | <Cale> | nightmare* |
| 16:20:09 | <zincy_> | Haha this is so true |
| 16:20:32 | <Cale> | As much as I love dependent types, I also fear what bad programmers will do with them |
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| 16:20:41 | <int-e> | I want dependable types. |
| 16:20:58 | <monochrom> | @quote int-e I want dependable types. |
| 16:20:58 | <lambdabot> | No quotes match. Take a stress pill and think things over. |
| 16:21:02 | <monochrom> | err heh |
| 16:21:08 | <monochrom> | @remember int-e I want dependable types. |
| 16:21:09 | <lambdabot> | Nice! |
| 16:21:09 | <zincy_> | Maybe there should be a dependent types certification like a driving licence |
| 16:21:13 | <zincy_> | or an oath to do no harm |
| 16:21:16 | <Cale> | Even good programmers have a hard time finding the right way to define things in a dependently typed setting to guarantee the properties that are desired and still maintaining usability |
| 16:22:01 | <dolio> | Right. That is publishable research. |
| 16:22:07 | <zincy_> | What people do with custom typeclasses can be painful |
| 16:23:05 | <monochrom> | I disbelieve that dependent typing and/or exploiting curry-howard is a good way to express general invariants. I disbelieve the argument "I don't need to learn a different language for specifications". |
| 16:23:24 | <Cale> | There are places to use all the fancy new stuff in GHC, and I've been genuinely quite happy with some of the practical things I've been able to do with GADTs and DMap for example |
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| 16:23:54 | <Cale> | But using the fancy things has to be a last resort |
| 16:24:05 | <monochrom> | Re-using the type language for general invariants is worse, not better, because it is not re-using, it is shoe-horning. |
| 16:24:12 | <Cale> | Plain old Haskell 98 is pretty damn good 99% of the time |
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| 16:24:24 | <zincy_> | Yeah |
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| 16:27:31 | <Cale> | Well, when I say "all the new stuff", I'm still actually excluding a fair amount... there are a fair number of extensions that we just don't even begin to use, like all the weird record overloading shenanigans |
| 16:28:10 | <merijn> | Cale: Also, GADTs and fancy things are like spices |
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| 16:28:14 | <merijn> | A little goes a long way |
| 16:28:15 | <Cale> | I guess I'm referring to the stuff that's more in the direction of dependent types, like GADTs and type families and QuantifiedConstraints and such |
| 16:28:22 | <Cale> | yeah |
| 16:28:40 | <Cale> | There's a lot that I could do if I could write just *one* type level lambda :) |
| 16:29:03 | <dolio> | Is there an extension where record syntax doesn't generate the accessor? |
| 16:29:08 | <zincy_> | monochrom: What would you recommend as a first dip of the toe into proving properties about programs? |
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| 16:29:40 | <zincy_> | monochrom: Operational/Denotational semantics, was thinking software foundations but Isabelle looks fun too |
| 16:29:40 | <merijn> | dolio: Yes |
| 16:29:43 | <dolio> | Seems like that would be one of the most useful extensions. |
| 16:29:45 | <merijn> | dolio: Not sure if it's in yet |
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| 16:29:54 | <merijn> | dolio: But the GHC proposal was approved |
| 16:30:18 | <dolio> | Then you can declare record types and generate overloaded lenses instead of monomorphic accessors. |
| 16:30:21 | <merijn> | dolio: https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/pull/160 |
| 16:30:24 | <monochrom> | I'm biased, I'll just point you to my favourite: my thesis supervisor's textbook :) http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~hehner/aPToP/ |
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| 16:30:36 | <ski> | it would be useful, yes |
| 16:30:47 | <dolio> | Which gives you a much better record system than a bunch of ad-hoc nonsense. |
| 16:30:52 | → | tzh joins (~tzh@2601:448:c500:5300::82b3) |
| 16:30:54 | <merijn> | dolio: Looks like it'll be 9.2: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/merge_requests/4017 |
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| 16:31:18 | <dolio> | Ah, okay. |
| 16:31:29 | <zincy_> | monochrom: Thanks, I learned to prove things by studying Analysis so looking for the next step really that will tie in with programming :) |
| 16:31:34 | <dolio> | And you no longer have to name your field _foo. |
| 16:31:47 | → | thir joins (~thir@p200300f27f0fc60094e773283d7bf825.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 16:33:11 | <Guest18> | Does anybody know how is Maybe implemented? |
| 16:33:28 | <dolio> | To be honest, I blame a bit of the record stuff on the 'rigorous typeclasses' culture that has developed. |
| 16:33:37 | <maerwald> | @src Maybe |
| 16:33:37 | <lambdabot> | data Maybe a = Nothing | Just a |
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| 16:33:51 | <Guest18> | @src Nothing |
| 16:33:52 | <lambdabot> | Source not found. My brain just exploded |
| 16:33:58 | <maerwald> | That's a constructor |
| 16:34:19 | <[exa]> | Guest18: Nothing is defined by that definition of Maybe |
| 16:34:31 | <geekosaur> | as is Just |
| 16:34:34 | <maerwald> | I'm wondering which university started this haskell course :p |
| 16:34:53 | <dolio> | Type classes are obviously the correct way to overload records, but any suggestion for using it would get hammered by the "there are no LAWS" crowd. So instead people need to invent a less thought out version of type classes that you're allowed to use how you want. |
| 16:35:06 | <Guest18> | [exa] so they don't have implementations? They are just symbols of sorts? |
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| 16:35:27 | <[exa]> | Guest18: yeah, perfectly arbitrary "labels". Just like False and True |
| 16:35:39 | → | voyons_osti joins (~dan@107-190-41-58.cpe.teksavvy.com) |
| 16:35:46 | <merijn> | Guest18: Define "implementations" |
| 16:35:55 | <merijn> | Guest18: That *is* the implementation |
| 16:35:58 | <monochrom> | dolio, the good news is you have convinced me. :) Next time I teach my course, I'll be relaxing on traits of good type classes. |
| 16:36:08 | <ski> | Guest18 : they don't have implementations in Haskell, beyond that `data' type definition |
| 16:36:25 | <Guest18> | that's a bit confusing, i might say |
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| 16:36:39 | <ski> | whyso ? |
| 16:36:58 | × | elcaro quits (~anonymous@45.32.191.75) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 16:37:21 | <ski> | you know (or will know) how to work with them, practically. why do you care about "what they really are" ? |
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| 16:38:04 | <monochrom> | But even my previous version was open-ended. I had "useful expectations", this included social expectations, so overloaded field name would be fine. Also, I only intend a spectrum, not a boolean. |
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| 16:38:27 | <Guest18> | Regarding what [exa] said about True and False: if they are just arbitrary labels, why can i put a guard, a condition after and it automatically knows it should execute that only if the condition == True |
| 16:38:45 | <Guest18> | ski: Just curios, Nothing else ;) |
| 16:38:45 | <maerwald> | I'd favor a version of the haskell language without type classes :p ...just wondering how we'd implement functors etc |
| 16:38:46 | <ski> | you know you can construct `Maybe' values, with `Nothing', and with `Just'. and you know you can detect which way a `Maybe' value was constructed, by using pattern-matching, on the `Nothing' and `Just' cases (getting the "contents" as well, in the latter case) |
| 16:38:51 | <ski> | what more do you need ? |
| 16:38:56 | <[exa]> | Guest18: because the "label" for True is shared between `guard` and your program, and they know it's the same thing |
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| 16:40:08 | <maerwald> | Guest18: there are also pattern guards: | (Just m) <- foo = bar |
| 16:40:08 | <ski> | Guest18 : well, guard syntax (and `if', and list comprehensions) knows about `Bool' in particular |
| 16:40:18 | <geekosaur> | booleans are partially wired into the compiler because of guards, among other things (but this is just an optimization). Maybe isn't, because there's no equivalent usage inside the compiler for it |
| 16:40:38 | <monochrom> | Lately I've been writing a GHC.Generics tutorial, and also realize that it is very difficult to uphold "has laws" for the homebrew type classes you have to define in order to have a place for your generic algorithm to live in. |
| 16:40:38 | <maerwald> | lets drown them in information :p |
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| 16:40:46 | <ski> | you could define your own version of `if' (as an ordinary function), though. `if ... then ... else ...' is just a handy syntactic sugar |
| 16:41:16 | <ski> | maerwald : it's an old established tradition :) |
| 16:41:23 | <Guest18> | ski: just curiosity to see how complicated it is on the inside. I mean, I always assume whatever i get from the standard library is going to have some weird implementation that I can't understand. Wanted to see what the deal was with Maybe |
| 16:41:53 | <maerwald> | Those are reasonable expectations from a standard library |
| 16:42:25 | <Guest18> | i get it now, i experimented with Maybe for a bit already and get how to use it, and now wanted to see how it works |
| 16:43:01 | <ski> | what's the difference between "how to use it" and "how it works" ? |
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| 16:43:18 | <maerwald> | > join (+) 4 -- hey Guest18, look at this :p |
| 16:43:20 | <lambdabot> | 8 |
| 16:43:32 | <maerwald> | :t join |
| 16:43:33 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => m (m a) -> m a |
| 16:43:58 | <geekosaur> | there's nothing to know, really. either it's Nothing or it's Just some value. there are some typeclass instances that make it more convenient to use in various cases, but those aren't wired in to the compiler either |
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| 16:44:18 | <Guest18> | ski: i can drive a car, or 'use' it, but i don't know all the internals and how it functions |
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| 16:44:51 | <ski> | it could "work" then in different ways, depending on which implementation of the language you're using |
| 16:45:01 | <Guest18> | maerwald: I haven't gotten into Monads, that's uncharted territory to me |
| 16:45:02 | <monochrom> | There are English native speakers, I think even the majority, who use "how does it work" to mean, seriously, how to use. |
| 16:45:05 | <[exa]> | Guest18: on the inside there's a very rough reminiscent of a tagged union (something like enum with extra struct members, if you like C) |
| 16:45:06 | <ski> | (but then we're not talking about Haskell, but implementations of Haskell) |
| 16:45:38 | <[exa]> | but yeah that depends a lot on the actual implementation. |
| 16:45:40 | <dolio> | monochrom: Yeah, the important thing is to judge the value in context, and not over-generalize some rigid rule set. Like, mathematical structures are a good way to figure out nice type classes. But they're not the only way. |
| 16:45:47 | <maerwald> | monochrom: isn't that a rather american thing? |
| 16:46:20 | <maerwald> | where "work" is overloaded to all sorts of meanings |
| 16:46:22 | <Guest18> | ski: yeah, you are right here. I should have asked: what's a probable implementation of Maybe? |
| 16:46:37 | <monochrom> | I don't know. But I'm afraid more people speak American English than British English. I deplore it, but I admit defeat. And it's spelled colour, not color! |
| 16:46:38 | <ski> | Guest18 : what [exa] said |
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| 16:46:46 | <Guest18> | [exa]: I see, thank you so much |
| 16:46:53 | <dolio> | And with generics that's just a completely different application, basically. |
| 16:47:01 | <ski> | Guest18 : have you seen C ? |
| 16:47:27 | <Guest18> | what lambdabot said does remind me of an enum of sorts |
| 16:47:51 | <Guest18> | ski: if i have seen it? what do you mean? |
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| 16:48:46 | <Guest18> | you mean if i've ever seen C code? Sure i have |
| 16:48:51 | <Guest18> | Quite a lot |
| 16:49:05 | <[exa]> | you might like the ghc RTS then. :] |
| 16:49:06 | × | alp quits (~alp@88.126.45.36) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 16:49:24 | <ski> | Guest18 : very roughly, you could imagine something like `struct maybe_int { enum {NOTHING,JUST} tag; union { struct {} n; struct { int n; } j; } u; };' |
| 16:49:27 | <maerwald> | I think this might be the only student passing the exam :) |
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| 16:49:46 | <maerwald> | (the others left after they figured out how to install GHC) |
| 16:49:59 | <ski> | (but this ignores lots of things, is just meant to get a general idea for how you could simulate something a bit akin to `Maybe Int', in C) |
| 16:50:39 | <monochrom> | With great trouble. |
| 16:50:41 | <dolio> | EvanR: Oh, by the way, I thought of some other 'not correct' stuff that probably makes sense in SDG. All those weird differential operators that get used in e.g. Maxwell's equations, where in classical math you have to explain it as 'just a notation' probably actually make sense. Like the gradient is actually a vector-like thing, and you can use the dot product to get the divergence, and it all makes sense. At least, I think that's the kind of thing |
| 16:50:42 | <dolio> | you get out of it (I have very little understanding of SDG). |
| 16:50:44 | <[exa]> | ( ...did I miss a surge of new questions about haskell language server? ) |
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| 16:51:16 | <ski> | [exa] : recently there's been a bit of people having basic trouble with how to install GHC |
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| 16:51:35 | <[exa]> | good |
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| 16:51:42 | <[exa]> | I'm going to contribute a few tomorrow. :] |
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| 16:52:04 | <maerwald> | I already have PATH-burnout |
| 16:52:12 | <ski> | Guest18 : does that help ? |
| 16:52:26 | <[exa]> | oh this. |
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| 16:52:41 | <monochrom> | ski and Guest18: Could I talk you into replacing C by Rust as your reference point? Because Rust matches so much better to Haskell in this regard. |
| 16:52:53 | <[exa]> | I should put this to slides explicitly |
| 16:53:23 | <ski> | mm, the other day, we helped someone to add stuff to `.bashrc' and `.bash_profile' (after telling how to create the first one, which was non-existant) |
| 16:53:24 | <Guest18> | ski: it does. Do you recommend going into the RTS to see some of this in action? I am quite curious |
| 16:53:49 | <ski> | monochrom : i'd love to, but less people tend to be familiar with it :) |
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| 16:54:01 | <monochrom> | maerwald: There is an alternative. If you don't support Mac... >:) |
| 16:54:10 | <[exa]> | monochrom: doesn't it kinda lead to question "how's that implemented in rust?" |
| 16:54:28 | <Guest18> | monochrom: i for one can read simple rust, but never programmed with it |
| 16:54:32 | <monochrom> | Yes for some people, no for some people. |
| 16:54:40 | <Guest18> | and i think many people have the same problem |
| 16:54:43 | <[exa]> | anyway thanks for pointing out the install problem, I just realized that my slides don't match reality anymore, at all |
| 16:54:45 | <maerwald> | monochrom: I hope the next haskell survey will give better insights about the user distribution of ghcup |
| 16:56:02 | <monochrom> | Notice how, for example, most javascript programmers never ask how are javascript features implemented, how are web browsers implemented in the first place. |
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| 16:56:32 | <zincy_> | monochrom: Yes! |
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| 16:56:44 | <[exa]> | monochrom: they learnt to fear the browser! |
| 16:57:02 | <dolio> | JavaScript is the fundamental language of the universe. |
| 16:57:12 | <[exa]> | ("learnt" isn't english, is it...) |
| 16:57:13 | × | nineonine quits (~nineonine@216-19-190-182.dyn.novuscom.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 16:57:22 | <ski> | [exa] : if you look for "xcode" in scroll-back, you should see one such conversation, a few hours ago |
| 16:57:24 | <geekosaur> | british english |
| 16:57:27 | <monochrom> | It is. Both learnt and learned are legal. |
| 16:57:45 | <Guest18> | monochrom: the problem with those is that they chose the easy route, it's all about making a living, but beyond that, i don't think they care if it doesn't affect them |
| 16:57:45 | <[exa]> | o nice |
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| 16:57:51 | <[exa]> | ski: thanks! |
| 16:57:53 | <Cheery> | I just wrote a lazy lambda calculus interpreter in RPython. |
| 16:58:01 | <monochrom> | Recommendation: Every time, toss a coin to decide whether you use learnt or learned :) |
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| 16:58:49 | <ski> | [exa] : and there was someone that we helped with `.bashrc' and `.bash_profile' (on Mac), maybe yesterday, or the day before (you could check the TUNES logs, if it's fallen off the far end of your buffer) |
| 16:59:18 | <ski> | monochrom : ooh, is that what the learnt ones do ? |
| 16:59:27 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 16:59:29 | <[exa]> | I see it in the backlog (it's nicely marked by a flood of ghcup install logs :D ) |
| 16:59:46 | <monochrom> | Nah, learnt people don't troll like that. |
| 17:00:24 | <Guest18> | [exa] Do you do any embedded by any chance? |
| 17:00:26 | <maerwald> | [exa]: yeah, we saw it coming a mile away |
| 17:00:32 | <zincy_> | And then you have those lovely people who take javascript out of the browser and write their servers in it! |
| 17:00:54 | <zincy_> | Keep the monster in the box |
| 17:01:05 | <ski> | Guest18 : iirc, there's some STG paper that people seems to be suggesting. but i think it's probably more useful to first get a bit more comfortable with the language |
| 17:01:22 | <[exa]> | Guest18: embedded? as in programming for embedded platforms? |
| 17:01:32 | <Guest18> | Any chance we could convert js devs to OCaml? |
| 17:01:35 | <Guest18> | [exa]: yes |
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| 17:01:49 | <zincy_> | Guest18: They tried that with Reasonml |
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| 17:02:00 | <zincy_> | But it was too hard to learn of course |
| 17:02:03 | <zincy_> | Because. Types. |
| 17:02:16 | <monochrom> | I am against converting people. |
| 17:02:28 | <zincy_> | haha |
| 17:02:39 | <[exa]> | Guest18: I'm also teaching C/C++ and generally work towards the "restricted&efficient" systems but usually not for the small-platform-ish reasons |
| 17:03:03 | <dolio> | It's too hard to get your variable scoping errors at compile time. |
| 17:03:28 | <Guest18> | Oh, cool, I taught C++ as well. As in, not anymore |
| 17:03:40 | <[exa]> | some of the JS people kindof don't believe the mistake until it really happens |
| 17:03:51 | <zincy_> | dolio: And scary! |
| 17:04:01 | <zincy_> | Imagine seeing all those problems at once |
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| 17:04:11 | <Guest18> | Although, probably in this group, that's not much of an achievement |
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| 17:08:35 | <maerwald> | you can conver js devs to elm |
| 17:09:10 | <[exa]> | "but does it run react?" |
| 17:10:17 | <maerwald> | I'm already happy TypeScript exists, although the type system isn't entirely sound |
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| 17:11:09 | <aldum> | you know, compared to what ; next JS it's splendid |
| 17:11:27 | <monochrom> | Hey maerwald, I'm wondering if https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.0.1-alpha1/docs/html/users_guide/9.0.1-notes.html#base-library solves your ByteString space troubles. |
| 17:11:50 | <monochrom> | This is on GHC 9.0.1 alpha1 |
| 17:12:15 | <maerwald> | aldum: https://github.com/microsoft/TypeScript/issues/18770 |
| 17:13:17 | <maerwald> | const array1: (number | string)[] = []; const array2: number[] = array1; array1.push("gotcha"); |
| 17:13:19 | <maerwald> | heh |
| 17:13:30 | <maerwald> | boom |
| 17:13:35 | <maerwald> | (it works) |
| 17:15:19 | <ski> | contravariance of mutable container ? |
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| 17:20:12 | <maerwald> | monochrom: you mean this? https://github.com/haskell/tar/issues/57 |
| 17:20:26 | <monochrom> | Yeah |
| 17:20:28 | <maerwald> | I think it might actually be related to ByteString, but I have to check |
| 17:21:01 | <maerwald> | or it might get worse |
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| 17:21:13 | <monochrom> | Ah then, maybe 9.0.1 doesn't help. |
| 17:21:24 | <maerwald> | they made bytestring faster... but no one knows if that increased the memory footprint I think |
| 17:21:31 | <geekosaur> | bytestring still needs to be updatd to use the new mechanism |
| 17:21:35 | <monochrom> | 9.0.1's change is for OverloadedString bytestrings, if I read correctly |
| 17:21:56 | <maerwald> | I usually don't put 200mb string literals in my code |
| 17:21:59 | <monochrom> | And what geekosaur said. |
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| 17:22:14 | <geekosaur> | and in any case there are multiple ways that ByteStrings fragment and possibly leak memory, as I understand it, and this helps only one of them |
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| 17:23:01 | <maerwald> | the streamly maintainer wants to completely replace it with a Stream of Word8 |
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| 17:23:25 | <maerwald> | maybe that solves all our problems |
| 17:26:08 | <aldum> | is OverloadedStrings default now, or am I misunderstanding you? |
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| 17:26:38 | <geekosaur> | no, it's not the default |
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| 17:27:23 | <geekosaur> | but OverloadedStrings means you have a string literal somewhere that in this case gets converted to a ByteString, which means the string ow exists twice unless there's some trickery to share the representation |
| 17:27:34 | <geekosaur> | this is said trickery |
| 17:28:20 | <geekosaur> | (it can't be a normal FroeignPr like with most ByteStrings because it would then be freeable, but it's not in the heap because it was compiled in) |
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| 17:37:58 | <geekosaur> | hm, actually I wonder how much of that I have correct, since I thought string literals were encoded with a variant of UTF8 which would then require decoding to recover the "original" ByteString |
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| 17:39:28 | hackage | acc 0.1.0.2 - Sequence optimized for monoidal construction and folding https://hackage.haskell.org/package/acc-0.1.0.2 (NikitaVolkov) |
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| 17:39:56 | <geekosaur> | in other news, there's some odd attrition going on here |
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| 17:46:20 | <Turmfalke> | That's what the IRCCloud version of a netsplit looks like |
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| 17:47:21 | <geekosaur> | cute |
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| 17:53:39 | <Dashboard> | !help |
| 17:53:40 | × | Saten-san quits (~Saten-san@ip-213-49-123-190.dsl.scarlet.be) (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) |
| 17:53:54 | <yushyin> | hello Dashboard |
| 17:53:59 | <Dashboard> | hi |
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| 17:55:14 | <Dashboard> | !id |
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| 17:55:45 | ← | Dashboard parts (~hyig@179.54.112.192) () |
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| 18:02:32 | knupfer1 | is now known as knupfer |
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| 18:05:27 | hackage | asciichart 1.0.2 - Line charts in terminal https://hackage.haskell.org/package/asciichart-1.0.2 (madnight) |
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| 18:36:34 | <zincy_> | Should you use floating point to store monetary values? |
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| 18:36:41 | <dolio> | No. |
| 18:36:50 | <zincy_> | I thought not but now I am reading stuff which questions this |
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| 18:38:06 | <koz_> | zincy_: As someone having to deal with the fallout of this: no, you should never, under any circumstances, ever. |
| 18:38:22 | <zincy_> | haha |
| 18:38:30 | <monochrom> | "should" is ambiguous. For example, more socially acceptable? Technically better? More moral? |
| 18:38:31 | <zincy_> | I am trying to question my understanding of this ... so here goes |
| 18:38:44 | <koz_> | You have _no idea_ what kind of absurd contortions I have been putting codebases through for several months to get around this _horrific_ decision. |
| 18:38:53 | <monochrom> | For example, to be more socially acceptable among bankers, use fixed point, it's what they do. |
| 18:38:59 | <koz_> | (made a long time by someone who isn't me) |
| 18:39:05 | <monochrom> | in fact use decimal fixed point. |
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| 18:39:40 | <monochrom> | But binary is technically better than decimal in terms of minimizing errors, as shown by Knuth. |
| 18:39:49 | <zincy_> | You cannot use floating point to accurately store monetary values because expansions of rational numbers that are recurring cannot be stored within a finite amount of memory |
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| 18:40:11 | <zincy_> | Is that right? |
| 18:40:43 | <koz_> | zincy_: That isn't even the _tenth_ reason. |
| 18:40:46 | <zincy_> | monochrom: What does better mean in terms of error distribution? |
| 18:40:54 | <monochrom> | Yes, rational numbers is even better than binary floating point, technically. |
| 18:40:57 | <koz_> | Firstly, there are some integer values that cannot be represented as floats as such. |
| 18:41:12 | <monochrom> | smaller errors if you have to round |
| 18:41:20 | <koz_> | Secondly, you cannot guarantee (for example) associativity of addition where floats are involved. |
| 18:41:40 | <monochrom> | As for distribution, round to even is better than "round up when half". As shown by Knuth, same paper. |
| 18:42:01 | <koz_> | (I'm not even mentioning the fact that some _non_-integer values cannot be represented) |
| 18:42:15 | <koz_> | The fact that you truncate recurring decimals is a drop in the goddamned ocean. |
| 18:42:16 | <monochrom> | However, rational number is even less socially acceptable than binary floating point. |
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| 18:42:42 | <zincy_> | Yes rational numbers are seen as idealistic |
| 18:43:14 | <zincy_> | Im not comfortable with how changing the base results in less errors |
| 18:43:31 | <monochrom> | Bankers have made the decision of decimal fixed point, and have built very anal rounding rules around it. If you use rational numbers, you stand to be more correct than them, but that also means from their POV you're wrong. |
| 18:43:34 | <zincy_> | What are examples of values that cannot be represented |
| 18:43:41 | <tomsmeding> | zincy_: 1/10 |
| 18:43:52 | <monochrom> | This is the very reason Intel floating point has BCD. |
| 18:43:59 | <tomsmeding> | > sum (replicate 10 0.1) |
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| 18:44:02 | <lambdabot> | 0.9999999999999999 |
| 18:44:09 | <monochrom> | Note: BCD is still floating point, just decimal. |
| 18:44:18 | <dolio> | I mean, that's the real reason. If you want your program to be used for anything, you need to comply with all the rules. |
| 18:44:26 | <dolio> | And you, some random tech dude, aren't going to change the rules. |
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| 18:44:47 | <monochrom> | Hell, Knuth is not random, and still can't change the rules. |
| 18:45:13 | <zincy_> | Why can't you just represent 1/10 as 10^-1 ? |
| 18:45:21 | <zincy_> | Isnt floating point essentially scientific notation |
| 18:45:23 | <tomsmeding> | zincy_: then you're using base 10 :) |
| 18:45:42 | <monochrom> | 1/3 can be represented in floating point if base 3. |
| 18:45:43 | <zincy_> | So is floating point generally base 2 |
| 18:45:54 | <tomsmeding> | IEEE floating points use base 2, which means all numbers are represented as <integer> * 2^<integer> |
| 18:45:55 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 18:46:07 | <tomsmeding> | not just generally; most programmers will answer you "always" |
| 18:46:20 | <tomsmeding> | for the normal definition of the term "floating point", which is IEEE floating points |
| 18:46:21 | <dolio> | You can define floating point for any base, but the ones implemented in hardware are base 2. |
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| 18:46:33 | <monochrom> | OK you need to read this: https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19957-01/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html |
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| 18:46:47 | <tomsmeding> | long though |
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| 18:47:17 | <monochrom> | long compared to what? compared to replicating the same length in #haskell? |
| 18:47:21 | <tomsmeding> | :D |
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| 18:47:51 | <zincy_> | Understanding the limitations of floating point actually goes quite deep |
| 18:48:03 | <monochrom> | Seriously by the time one asks "why is 1/10 not representable" it's time to actually learn it. |
| 18:48:32 | <monochrom> | Or else, finish the 2nd year "computer organization" course in the standard CS curriculum. |
| 18:48:59 | <zincy_> | Yeah i Have done zero architecture or low level stuff |
| 18:49:34 | <Noughtmare[m]> | It is also very important for geometric algorithms and numeric analysis. |
| 18:50:01 | <zincy_> | I guess I should do that computer organization course |
| 18:50:03 | <geekosaur> | you have reached the point here you need to know it and its limitations and how to work around them |
| 18:50:09 | <geekosaur> | *where you |
| 18:50:19 | <zincy_> | Yeah |
| 18:50:42 | <zincy_> | I am past the point where I can just memorise the answer without understanding why |
| 18:51:08 | <zincy_> | That is get away with it rather than *should* |
| 18:51:11 | <ski> | @where floating-point |
| 18:51:11 | <lambdabot> | "What Every Programmer Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic" at <http://floating-point-gui.de/> and "What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic" by David |
| 18:51:11 | <lambdabot> | Goldberg in 1991 at <http://docs.sun.com/source/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html> and <http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.102.244> |
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| 18:52:56 | <zincy_> | Thanks I have some reading to do :) |
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| 18:59:14 | <dolio> | I guess one thing to consider is that the market capitalization of Apple is (as far as bankers might be concerned) a number requiring almost 53 bits of precision, just on its own. So Double just gets by, and it's immediately going to be rounding stuff according to the non-banker specification. |
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| 19:00:45 | <dolio> | 53 might actually not be enough, even. |
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| 19:01:44 | <Noughtmare[m]> | There was also this blog post: https://cs-syd.eu/posts/2020-07-28-how-to-deal-with-money-in-software |
| 19:02:12 | <Noughtmare[m]> | Might be an easier read and more related to Haskell and money. |
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| 19:19:38 | <koz_> | Noughtmare[m]: Thanks. That's really good. |
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| 19:28:22 | <dolio> | I guess a counterpoint is that a lot of this advice is about accounting. If you're doing something else, it might be more acceptable to use doubles. |
| 19:28:42 | <dolio> | Like, some kind of statistical analysis of things involving money. |
| 19:28:46 | <geekosaur> | might be acceptable but there's still a lot to know about how to work around their issues |
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| 19:29:05 | <geekosaur> | which includes doing different things depending on what magnitudes are involved |
| 19:29:30 | <dolio> | Sure. |
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| 19:31:48 | <dolio> | It's more that accounting has rules that make IEEE floating point impossible to use, whereas other scenarios it might be possible, but still difficult. :) |
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| 19:35:29 | <monochrom> | There is an unhealthy dose of scaremongering against floating point. |
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| 19:36:39 | <monochrom> | The outcry is "it has errors!" but the blindspot is: compared to what? For the same number of bits, base-2 floating point is the least errorneous among all ways of using those bits. |
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| 19:38:18 | <monochrom> | The real subtext is "it doesn't do intuitive decimal". |
| 19:38:49 | <monochrom> | as if decimal were the holy grail of accuracy. |
| 19:39:03 | <Noughtmare[m]> | The main point of the blog post is also that the errors should be explicit. |
| 19:39:16 | <Noughtmare[m]> | You can't just create or destroy money. |
| 19:39:26 | <monochrom> | That's a social construct. |
| 19:39:52 | <Cheery> | https://github.com/cheery/lijp |
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| 19:39:56 | <geekosaur> | so is money |
| 19:40:07 | <monochrom> | Yeah :) |
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| 19:40:34 | <monochrom> | More seriously, I respect the accounting requirement of conservation of money. |
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| 19:41:07 | <monochrom> | I disrepect "floating point has errors" as if the accounting requirement didn't have even worse errors. |
| 19:41:38 | <dolio> | I don't know. The thing about IEEE is that it has ways of dealing with the errors, but my understanding is that if you don't learn the right way, you probably won't accidentally write code that has good behavior with respect to error accumulation. |
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| 19:42:19 | <dolio> | So either the errors are completely irrelevant for whatever you're doing, or you still have to study non-trivial stuff. |
| 19:43:13 | <dolio> | A lot of people probably write code in the 'irrelevant' part, though. |
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| 19:44:45 | <Chousuke> | The "inexactitude" of floating point is only a problem because it can be used by people who don't know better. If you use it and your application can deal with the potentially accumulated errors, then it's not wrong, and not a problem. |
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| 19:45:46 | <Chousuke> | but lots of people will try to use a screwdriver as a hammer, and often it works, too :/ |
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| 19:50:11 | <sm[m]> | anecdote: hledger started with Double, for simplicity and speed. It wasn't a problem for normal accounting; it took years until somebody encountered a tiny rounding error. |
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| 20:06:28 | hackage | curl-runnings 0.15.0 - A framework for declaratively writing curl based API tests https://hackage.haskell.org/package/curl-runnings-0.15.0 (aviaviavi) |
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| 20:07:12 | <koz_> | If I do [minBound .. maxBound] :: [Char], will this effectively produce a string made of every Unicode code point? |
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| 20:07:47 | <ski> | > filter isSpace [minBound .. maxBound] |
| 20:07:50 | <lambdabot> | "\t\n\v\f\r \160\5760\8192\8193\8194\8195\8196\8197\8198\8199\8200\8201\8202... |
| 20:07:59 | <sarahzrf> | > filter (not . isSpace) [minBound .. maxBound] |
| 20:08:03 | <lambdabot> | "\NUL\SOH\STX\ETX\EOT\ENQ\ACK\a\b\SO\SI\DLE\DC1\DC2\DC3\DC4\NAK\SYN\ETB\CAN\... |
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| 20:08:27 | <koz_> | Uhh, so, 'yes'? |
| 20:08:31 | <sarahzrf> | hehe |
| 20:08:45 | <koz_> | > length ([minBound .. maxBound] :: String) |
| 20:08:48 | <lambdabot> | 1114112 |
| 20:08:53 | <sarahzrf> | > filter isAlpha [minBound .. maxBound] |
| 20:08:53 | × | danvet_ quits (~Daniel@2a02:168:57f4:0:efd0:b9e5:5ae6:c2fa) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 20:08:55 | <lambdabot> | "ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz\170\181\186\192\193\19... |
| 20:09:00 | <ski> | > ord maxBound |
| 20:09:02 | <sarahzrf> | > text (filter isAlpha [minBound .. maxBound]) |
| 20:09:05 | jakecraige | is now known as constR |
| 20:09:07 | <lambdabot> | mueval-core: Time limit exceeded |
| 20:09:08 | <lambdabot> | ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzªµºÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏÐÑÒÓÔ... |
| 20:09:31 | <sarahzrf> | > ord (maxBound :: Char) -- ski |
| 20:09:35 | <lambdabot> | 1114111 |
| 20:09:50 | <ski> | > ord maxBound |
| 20:09:53 | <lambdabot> | 1114111 |
| 20:09:56 | <sarahzrf> | huh |
| 20:10:03 | <ski> | temporary fluke |
| 20:10:04 | <sarahzrf> | oh right, ord is monomorphic |
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| 20:10:49 | <ski> | koz_ : i guess it might be extended, later |
| 20:10:59 | <koz_> | ski: Possibly. |
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| 20:15:30 | <koz_> | Where can I find a function of type Int -> [a] -> [[a]]? This should chop the argument list into chunks of length specified by the Int argument. |
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| 20:15:59 | <hyperisco> | koz_, chunksOf |
| 20:16:04 | <ski> | @hoogle Int -> [a] -> [[a]] |
| 20:16:05 | <lambdabot> | Data.List.Split chunksOf :: Int -> [e] -> [[e]] |
| 20:16:05 | <lambdabot> | Data.List.Split.Internals chunksOf :: Int -> [e] -> [[e]] |
| 20:16:05 | <lambdabot> | Hedgehog.Internal.Shrink removes :: Int -> [a] -> [[a]] |
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| 20:16:39 | <ski> | @hackage split |
| 20:16:40 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/split |
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| 20:16:46 | <koz_> | Thanks! |
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| 20:17:15 | <ski> | > chunksOf 3 [0 .. 7] |
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| 20:17:18 | <lambdabot> | [[0,1,2],[3,4,5],[6,7]] |
| 20:17:27 | <koz_> | Delicious chunky list. |
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| 20:26:38 | <monochrom> | koz_: Some of the numbers / "characters" in that range are not legal unicode codepoints, so be careful. |
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| 20:26:57 | <koz_> | monochrom: How do I make sure I only have ones which are? |
| 20:27:15 | <koz_> | Is there some kind of 'I am a real boy^WUnicode codepoint' check? |
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| 20:27:20 | <monochrom> | Let me check if Data.Char has some helpers |
| 20:27:32 | <koz_> | Thanks! |
| 20:27:33 | <dolio> | Isn't that system-dependent? |
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| 20:28:02 | <EvanR> | there's various flavors of "not a valid character" |
| 20:28:15 | <EvanR> | very fun stuff |
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| 20:28:37 | <monochrom> | Perhaps generalCategory, and if you get NotAssigned it's a bad sign. Sometimes PrivateUse too, depending on what you want. |
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| 20:28:53 | <koz_> | OK, thanks. |
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| 20:29:49 | <monochrom> | NotAssigned would be "illegal today but maybe in 2025 it is a newly assigned emoji" |
| 20:30:16 | <monochrom> | To be sure, my wording "illegal" is lax. |
| 20:30:26 | <EvanR> | there's literally "not a character" like \uffff |
| 20:30:43 | <EvanR> | "FFFE and FFFF are not unassigned in the usual sense, but guaranteed not to be Unicode characters at all." |
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| 20:31:10 | <monochrom> | But you don't go around sending unassigned codepoints to people :) |
| 20:31:14 | <dolio> | What is the purpose of that? |
| 20:31:17 | <dolio> | Terminating your strings? |
| 20:31:32 | <monochrom> | Ah, FFFE and FFFF would be Surrogate. You want to watch out for them especially. |
| 20:31:33 | <EvanR> | FFFE is used for detecting byte order in utf-16 |
| 20:31:41 | <EvanR> | FFFF not sure |
| 20:31:44 | <dolio> | Ah. |
| 20:32:10 | <monochrom> | Actually I am only sure that FFFE is surrogate. haven't checked FFFF, could be NotAssigned |
| 20:32:38 | <koz_> | @pl \i x -> foo (bar i) x |
| 20:32:38 | <lambdabot> | foo . bar |
| 20:34:18 | <monochrom> | Generally the whole surrogate block, from today's POV, is a relic of backward compatibility to utf-16. |
| 20:34:25 | <EvanR> | FEFF is a byte order mark |
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| 20:35:22 | <EvanR> | so it's possible to see FFFE in utf-16 encoded bytes, so it can't be used as a character too |
| 20:36:36 | <EvanR> | surrogates are for doing stuff beyond FFFF |
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| 20:38:19 | <monochrom> | oops, FFFE is NotAssigned |
| 20:38:49 | <EvanR> | NotAssignInFactNeverWillBeAssignedDueToReasons |
| 20:38:58 | <monochrom> | Yeah |
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| 20:39:14 | <koz_> | Won'tAssign |
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| 20:39:58 | <monochrom> | Surrogates are the D8xx block and the DCxx block. |
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| 20:42:40 | <monochrom> | Ah, even that is inaccurate. (The two blocks are each much larger.) I'll shut up now. |
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| 20:42:51 | <EvanR> | the byte reversed surrogates are "non characters" |
| 20:43:04 | <EvanR> | according to this http://www.unicode.org/faq/private_use.html there are 66 non-characters |
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| 20:45:04 | <monochrom> | fun stuff |
| 20:45:26 | <monochrom> | Math is so much easier. :) |
| 20:45:28 | <koz_> | Conclusion: Writing is hard, we should go back to being illiterate. |
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| 20:45:37 | <monochrom> | I think we did? |
| 20:45:55 | <monochrom> | The whole reason why GUI and icons as opposed to CLI. |
| 20:47:03 | <monochrom> | It's like we decided that the Phoenician way (alphabet) is too hard, let's go back to the Egyptian way (icons). |
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| 20:47:35 | <EvanR> | normal fractions are too hard, go back to egyptian fractions |
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| 20:47:55 | <koz_> | Normal construction is too hard, go back to Egyptian construction. |
| 20:48:05 | <koz_> | [insert the Ancient Aliens meme] |
| 20:48:38 | <koz_> | https://i.imgflip.com/4gq65v.jpg |
| 20:48:53 | <EvanR> | hey man, if i can learn some chinese after the age of 3 maybe there's hope for us all |
| 20:49:13 | <monochrom> | Good for you. |
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| 20:49:55 | <monochrom> | But don't mistake your special gift for universal human trait. |
| 20:50:01 | <EvanR> | that's what i'm saying |
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| 20:50:52 | <EvanR> | somehow people can look at random squiggles and it means something |
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| 21:28:26 | hololeap | will build a colossal truncated dodecahedron out of peat moss |
| 21:28:50 | <pjb> | That's a plan. |
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| 21:33:58 | hackage | http-client-websockets 0.1.0.0 - Glue code for http-client and websockets https://hackage.haskell.org/package/http-client-websockets-0.1.0.0 (amesgen) |
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| 22:16:49 | notzmv` | is now known as notzmv |
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| 22:17:28 | hackage | free-categories 0.2.0.1 - free categories https://hackage.haskell.org/package/free-categories-0.2.0.1 (echatav) |
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| 22:47:12 | <somek> | hello |
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| 22:48:53 | <ski> | hello |
| 22:49:32 | <koz_> | hello |
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| 22:51:37 | ski | looks at somek |
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| 22:57:42 | koz_ | looks at somek |
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| 23:12:46 | <carter01> | Hello! Does anyone use Coc with the haskell language server? I can get codelenses to appear but I don't know how to apply them. Does anyone know how? Is there another vim setting that allows this? |
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| 23:24:28 | hackage | free-categories 0.2.0.2 - free categories https://hackage.haskell.org/package/free-categories-0.2.0.2 (echatav) |
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All times are in UTC on 2020-09-29.