Logs on 2020-10-08 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 00:40:58 | hackage | reanimate-svg 0.12.2.1 - SVG file loader and serializer https://hackage.haskell.org/package/reanimate-svg-0.12.2.1 (DavidHimmelstrup) |
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| 03:25:34 | <Tario> | Hello |
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| 03:25:51 | <lemmih> | Hello there. |
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| 03:27:39 | <Tario> | timed out |
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| 03:36:51 | <Axman6> | Hello Tario |
| 03:37:18 | <Tario> | Hello hello! |
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| 03:38:20 | <Axman6> | lemmih also said hello :) How can we help? |
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| 03:55:22 | <Tario> | I got disc for a moment there, poor connection from my end |
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| 03:56:51 | <Tario> | I was going to ask mainly for some help with a Yesod project I've been working on |
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| 03:57:37 | <Tario> | Mostly documentation or examples on how to implement Json web tokens into a mini-REST API |
| 03:58:20 | <Tario> | And how to perform authentication with JWT + Yesod in this API |
| 03:58:28 | <sm[m]> | Tario: tried the yesod book and the examples in the repo/wiki ? |
| 03:58:50 | <Tario> | Im trying the Yesod book yes |
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| 03:59:20 | <Tario> | I haven't checked the wiki/repo, though |
| 04:00:04 | <Tario> | Also I've found some interesting blogs on how to create rest API's with Yesod. They've been of great help too! |
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| 04:05:22 | <Tario> | Is this the repo you were mentioning? |
| 04:05:22 | <Tario> | https://github.com/yesodweb/yesod |
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| 04:14:36 | <sm[m]> | Tario: yes, in that repo's wiki there's a cookbook that might have something |
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| 04:34:36 | <yxe_tim> | Hello, (hopefully a quick question), I have installed haskell on wsl2 using ghcup (8.10.2) and then built ghcide, but vscode keeps displaying an error that ghcide was compiled against 8.10.1, does anyone have any experience setting up this toolchain? (WSL2, VSCode, Haskell Extension) |
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| 04:35:11 | <yxe_tim> | (WSL2 ubuntu 20.04) |
| 04:36:23 | <Axman6> | what does ghcide version say its GHC version is, and is VS Code pointing to the same ghcide executable as the one you're checking? |
| 04:36:44 | <Axman6> | uh, ghcide --version |
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| 04:36:57 | <Axman6> | (though the former works... but then gives an error |
| 04:36:58 | <Axman6> | ) |
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| 04:39:58 | day_ | is now known as day |
| 04:42:44 | <yxe_tim> | In terminal it says "ghcide version: 0.4.0 (GHC: 8.10) (PATH: ~/.cabal/store/ghc-8.10.2/ghcide-0.4.0-13cf00411000e3d4a0caf0088b938e894a101bcba94c7f863c33d2e1fab1f877/bin/ghcide)", which is what I expect. Is there a way to ask the Haskell language server what version of ghcide it is using? using `find` I don't see an obvious alternate copy |
| 04:44:36 | <Axman6> | if you open the VS code console with ctrl-` and then go to putput, select "Haskell (haskell-server)" and scrol to the top it should it should print out something like: ghcide version: 0.1.0.0 (GHC: 8.8.3) (PATH: /Users/REDACTED/.local/bin/haskell-language-server-wrapper) (GIT hash: d2654185eef1b0d703cebc694e85438e20600e37) |
| 04:46:57 | <yxe_tim> | `haskell-language-server version: 0.5.0.0 (GHC: 8.10.1)` somehow I have an older one, okay well there's my answer I guess :) |
| 04:47:11 | <Axman6> | does it show the path too? |
| 04:47:50 | <yxe_tim> | yes `(PATH: ~/.ghcup/bin/haskell-language-server-8.10.1~0.5.0)` which is I think the default install location for `ghcup` |
| 04:49:13 | <Axman6> | the Haskell VS Code plugin will also install the appropriate hls for your project IIRC |
| 04:49:36 | <Axman6> | I'm not sure therte's much need to do it via ghcup if you're using VS code, but I could be mistaken |
| 04:52:04 | <yxe_tim> | I removed it with `ghcup` and then reinstalled and now there is no error. 🤷🏻♂️ |
| 04:52:40 | <yxe_tim> | appreciate your help, thanks Axman |
| 04:56:33 | <Axman6> | All good :) |
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| 04:57:09 | <Axman6> | that's probably the first time I've ever been able to help with a haskell on windows problem... WSL is truly a game changer in supporting the platform =) |
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| 05:47:40 | <Dungdv> | hello everyone |
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| 05:52:59 | <yushyin> | hello Dungdv |
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| 08:10:42 | <spinnylights> | hiya haskellers—if i run `stack setup` in a new stack project, it tries to pull down and build ghc 8.8.4, but the build fails due to a sanity check; the error is "Could not load module Distribution.Simple; It is a member of the hidden package Cabal-3.0.1.0" |
| 08:10:53 | <spinnylights> | this is on arch linux, ghc installed via ghcup |
| 08:11:17 | <spinnylights> | i've googled about it a bit but i've only found stuff related to people hitting errors like this on their own projects, not on ghc itself, unless i'm confused about something |
| 08:12:53 | <maerwald> | spinnylights: which ghc does it actually use? do you have one installed via arch repo? |
| 08:13:44 | <spinnylights> | if i run `which ghc` it gives the ghc installed via ghcup, which is 8.8.4; i also have ghc 8.10.2 installed globally via arch repos |
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| 08:14:03 | <spinnylights> | do you think stack is getting confused by that? |
| 08:14:24 | <maerwald> | it should use its own, unless you tell it otherwise, but not sure |
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| 08:14:38 | <spinnylights> | yeah, i was under the impression that stack wouldn't use either of them |
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| 08:15:26 | <spinnylights> | i could try telling ghcup to use 8.10.2 and see if it makes any difference i guess |
| 08:16:36 | <spinnylights> | seems like it still wants to pull down 8.8.4, but we'll see what happens i guess |
| 08:17:42 | <spinnylights> | same thing :/ this is after wiping out the ghc-tinfo6-8.8.4 stuff in ~/.stack |
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| 08:22:01 | DTZUZU_ | is now known as DTZUZU |
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| 08:23:27 | hackage | yesod-filter 0.1.0.2 - Automatic filter generator for Yesod https://hackage.haskell.org/package/yesod-filter-0.1.0.2 (KenzoYotsuya) |
| 08:27:12 | <spinnylights> | i'm going to try using the nightly resolver instead and see if that makes a difference—i notice that the 8.8.4 lts release came out only 5 days ago so maybe i've hit a bug |
| 08:28:06 | <maerwald> | just use the previous one |
| 08:28:09 | <maerwald> | e.g. 16.15 |
| 08:29:10 | <spinnylights> | okay nightly did work—i'll try 16.15 then |
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| 08:30:32 | <spinnylights> | well 16.16 i guess |
| 08:33:22 | <spinnylights> | same thing :/ i kind of suspect it'll do this for every 8.8.4 lts resolver; let's see about the 8.8.3 lts, wonder what happens there |
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| 08:34:07 | <spinnylights> | no trouble there either—seems to be specific to 8.8.4 |
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| 08:36:40 | <gentauro> | is this a joke or did somebody implement "clippy"? https://asciinema.org/a/xkqfc5Fst9yC5gDaPskiNE5au xD |
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| 08:37:29 | <Taneb> | gentauro: it's entirely possible that both are the cae |
| 08:37:39 | <opqdonut> | it's a very popular feature in kakoune I hear |
| 08:38:01 | <opqdonut> | originally an easter egg? |
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| 08:39:38 | <gentauro> | Taneb: `cae`? What does that mean? |
| 08:39:47 | <Taneb> | Typo for "case" |
| 08:39:58 | <Taneb> | (it's early and I didn't sleep well) |
| 08:40:03 | <gentauro> | aha |
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| 08:42:13 | <gentauro> | I really need to find an alternative to `intero` on my NixOS. I think it's the last `stable channel` that will allow for the usage of `intero`, then I must move on (which is pretty sad) |
| 08:42:23 | <gentauro> | so getting a "clippy" could be fun :) |
| 08:45:58 | hackage | openapi3 3.0.0 - OpenAPI 3.0 data model https://hackage.haskell.org/package/openapi3-3.0.0 (maksbotan) |
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| 08:56:02 | <Guest_58> | i have a question. Im trying to isntall haskell on my mac, using the ghcup installer, where i just copy the link to my terminal and the code get downloaded by itself. But when its being unpacked it says that i need to update my mac, however, when i try to update it says that i have no updates avalible |
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| 09:02:13 | <yushyin> | maerwald: ^ ~.~ |
| 09:02:23 | <maerwald> | I don't have a mac |
| 09:02:31 | <yushyin> | I know! |
| 09:03:36 | <yushyin> | but why is macOS + ghcup such a bad experience, or is it just the users? |
| 09:03:52 | <maerwald> | because of mac? |
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| 09:05:28 | hackage | servant-openapi3 2.0.0 - Generate a Swagger/OpenAPI/OAS 3.0 specification for your servant API. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/servant-openapi3-2.0.0 (maksbotan) |
| 09:05:52 | <tomsmeding> | interesting report; maybe their hardware is old and ghc wants a newer macos version that cannot (officially) be installed on that machine? |
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| 09:07:28 | <c_wraith> | Part of it is that OS X has decided to split its bash configuration across two files, and ghcup often updates the wrong one |
| 09:07:45 | <maerwald> | that's already fixed |
| 09:07:53 | <maerwald> | (blatantly) |
| 09:07:55 | <c_wraith> | people still ask about it frequently |
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| 09:08:45 | <c_wraith> | like, I remember at least two people in the last week with that issue |
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| 09:35:53 | <christo> | hey guys, anyone know if i can set cabal build to default to cabal v1-build and same with other commands? |
| 09:36:24 | <dcoutts> | christo: you can use an older release of cabal where it still defaulted to v1 |
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| 09:45:08 | <christo> | dcoutts, you know how i can find which version defaults to v1? |
| 09:45:28 | <dcoutts> | christo: check the changelog, it was probably 3.0 |
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| 09:51:49 | <jackdk> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cabal-install-3.2.0.0/changelog |
| 09:52:07 | <jackdk> | 3.0.0.0: Legacy commands are now only accessible with the `v1-` prefixes, and the `v2-`commands are the new default. |
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| 09:57:26 | <christo> | jackdk so 2.4 then? |
| 09:58:49 | <jackdk> | if that's what the changelog says |
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| 10:02:44 | <christo> | when using ghcup to install different cabal version |
| 10:02:48 | <christo> | is it: |
| 10:02:58 | <christo> | ghcup install cabal 2.4.1.0 |
| 10:03:03 | <christo> | having issues with that |
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| 10:06:38 | <maerwald> | "having issues" isn't very specific |
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| 10:10:27 | <christo> | ye, my bad. have it working now. thx jackdk dcoutts |
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| 10:11:00 | <christo> | i'm trying to get haskell language server support working for the Euterpea music lib in vs code |
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| 10:11:35 | <maerwald> | I'm not sure that will work with an old cabal |
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| 10:13:04 | <maerwald> | note that ghcup can install hls too |
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| 10:19:59 | <christo> | maerwald i've tried most things to get HLS to provide support for Euterpea but no luck |
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| 10:20:21 | <christo> | so for euterpea to work ghc has to be set lower, i'm uisng 8.6.4 |
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| 10:20:24 | <christo> | but |
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| 10:20:46 | <christo> | euterpea only builds and works when you use the v1 style cabal commands |
| 10:21:10 | <christo> | i've changed cabal to 2.4.1.0 and ghc at 8.6.4 |
| 10:21:16 | <christo> | and from the cmd line project works |
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| 10:21:42 | <christo> | but haskell language server in vs code still gives me a msg saying it can't resolve Euterpea dependency |
| 10:21:59 | <christo> | even though the project is building from cmd line |
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| 10:38:27 | hackage | HsOpenSSL 0.11.4.20 - Partial OpenSSL binding for Haskell https://hackage.haskell.org/package/HsOpenSSL-0.11.4.20 (VladimirShabanov) |
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| 10:43:18 | <matthias_gorgens> | Hello! I have a monad computation that runs in RWS. Specifically, for the config provided by the Reader bit, I have a list of values. So I typically run my RWS computation multiple times. |
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| 10:44:25 | <matthias_gorgens> | Now I want to add the ability for my computations to communicate: basically somehow add an operation `collect :: a -> m [a]` that you give a value and that returns the values given by your own computation and those of all the other computations running in lockstep. |
| 10:44:46 | <matthias_gorgens> | (It's fine for `collect` to fail, if the different computations somehow get out of lockstep.) |
| 10:44:52 | <matthias_gorgens> | Any idea how to implement this? |
| 10:45:12 | <matthias_gorgens> | I am thinking of something with coroutines or continuations. |
| 10:47:32 | <matthias_gorgens> | (If I need to restrict the values that `collect` can transmit to a single type, that's not ideal, but still ok.) |
| 10:48:37 | <davean> | christo: euterpea only builds with v1 commands? |
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| 10:49:32 | <maerwald> | it looks like an abandoned project |
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| 10:57:06 | <davean> | christo: I just build it with v2-build, I think you might be confused about the problem |
| 10:59:41 | <christo> | davean i mean, i want to use the package in a personal cabal project and have haskell language support for the Euterpea API |
| 11:00:07 | <christo> | i want to use the Euterpea package in a personal cabal project as a dependency* |
| 11:00:26 | <davean> | Right, so? |
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| 11:01:31 | <christo> | whenever i use the package as a dependency i always get a cannot resolve dependency error from HLS in vs code and it breaks/or interrupts rather all of other code suggestion support through the project |
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| 11:02:44 | <christo> | i want ide features with coding a euterpea project basically |
| 11:02:57 | <davean> | Right so why do you think this has to do with v1 vs v2? |
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| 11:03:20 | <christo> | on the website it said euterpea only builds with v1 |
| 11:03:29 | <christo> | or the package as a dependency does |
| 11:03:39 | <christo> | haskell language server |
| 11:03:45 | <christo> | by default calls cabal build |
| 11:03:51 | <christo> | when doing checks i think |
| 11:03:54 | <christo> | not v1-build |
| 11:05:50 | <christo> | maybe only way around this is to build the Euterpea project itself so i can get code completetion/suggestions? |
| 11:06:08 | <christo> | and create my own files within the project for playing around with it |
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| 11:11:27 | <davean> | The issue is just its Setup, you can build it with v2 just fine, just specify the Cabal version. |
| 11:12:07 | <yushyin> | they left :/ |
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| 11:13:49 | <davean> | I think they just really wanted to think the problem was what they thought it was :/ |
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| 11:29:58 | hackage | hsinspect 0.0.17 - Inspect Haskell source files. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hsinspect-0.0.17 (tseenshe) |
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| 12:13:18 | <Tario> | Alright, thank you sm! I'll take a look on the repos wiki |
| 12:14:19 | <codedmart> | I am trying to use http-conduit to download a file and stream to s3 using amazonka-s3-streaming. I am seeing this error: https://gist.github.com/codedmart/d3c5f008c4a8ad27b24e649f8771a590 |
| 12:14:38 | <codedmart> | Anyone that can provide some ideas/clues to what I am missing here. |
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| 12:17:24 | <jackdk> | codedmart: looks like the commit that fixes the problem -- https://github.com/brendanhay/amazonka/commit/83dc7ad38a76e1db5f2490d7c7d8e269df8976aa -- hasn't yet made it into an amazonka release. |
| 12:18:13 | <codedmart> | jackdk Ah I missed that :(. Thanks! |
| 12:19:04 | <jackdk> | yeah, the slow rate of PR merges in amazonka is a tragedy |
| 12:19:37 | <sshine> | I'm getting a type error I don't understand. http://pastie.org/p/3PpeaPreqcmDAG87HAFhVD - https://github.com/sshine/dagger2/blob/more-foldfix/src/Dagger/Contract/Traversal.hs - somewhere in my code, word = Integer gets assumed, but I don't know why. |
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| 12:21:56 | <siraben> | How do I get `[Maybe String]` out of a prism? I ahve `myCSV ^? namedCsv . rows . column @String "Timestamp"` but it gives me a single result. |
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| 12:24:33 | <carbolymer> | how lightweight is thread from forkIO? i need to push data to rabbitmq (couple times per second) and I plan to wrap each call in `async` - is it a good idea or would it be better to create channel/queue and separate long-living thread to read from that queue and push to rabbit? |
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| 12:27:29 | <sshine> | hmm, it seems that I'm messing up mutually recursing two Fix types a slight bit... |
| 12:27:48 | <sshine> | hi siraben :) |
| 12:28:07 | <siraben> | Hi sshine |
| 12:28:07 | sshine | doesn't know lenses. |
| 12:28:25 | <siraben> | sshine: the github link seems broken? |
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| 12:28:31 | <sshine> | eh. |
| 12:28:34 | <sshine> | d'oh. |
| 12:29:07 | <sshine> | there! |
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| 12:29:28 | <siraben> | Why is it called foldFix instead of cata now? |
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| 12:29:50 | <sshine> | they changed it in 0.3, I think |
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| 12:30:02 | <siraben> | catamorphism is standard terminology in literature |
| 12:30:03 | <siraben> | Heh |
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| 12:30:12 | <sshine> | I don't know... maybe the foobarmorphisms sound scary. |
| 12:30:15 | <sshine> | sure |
| 12:30:27 | <sshine> | I am certainly confused. :-D |
| 12:30:56 | <siraben> | sshine: what's the function supposed to do? |
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| 12:31:43 | [exa] | writes down foobarmorphism as a general morphism placeholder |
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| 12:33:03 | <sshine> | siraben, gather a list of transfers identified by their parameter. so initially a [(asset, party)]. but because of other combinators, I'm actually gathering an [(asset, party, Expr word oracle)] with Expr being another Fix type. what I think I'm forgetting is to add 'Fix' to the value 'Const 1'. |
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| 12:33:30 | <[exa]> | carbolymer: forkIO is almost free, these threads are very "green". by the `thread` for comparison, y[4~ou mean an actual spawned pthread? |
| 12:33:35 | <sshine> | siraben, this is my first use of Data.Fix, so I'm not sured to wrap everything in Fix. |
| 12:33:37 | <siraben> | sshine: yes that would appear to fix the type error |
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| 12:34:41 | <sshine> | that Fix'ed it. |
| 12:34:59 | <siraben> | Interesting, why use Data.Fix over the recursion schemes library? |
| 12:35:20 | <sshine> | I don't know yet. I have only tried one and not the other. :) I did look at recursion-schemes earlier. |
| 12:35:45 | <yushyin> | (recursion schemes calls it cata) |
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| 12:36:19 | <sshine> | doesn't recursion-schemes mainly provide ListF, NonEmptyF, TreeF? this is a specific AST type... |
| 12:36:20 | <siraben> | sshine: I like recursion schemes because it matches the theoretical background better |
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| 12:36:38 | <sshine> | siraben, "matches the theoretical background better" = uses cata, para, hylo naming? |
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| 12:36:46 | <siraben> | data ListF a b = Nil | Cons a b; type instance Base [a] = ListF a, which makes the concept of initial algebra for lists |
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| 12:36:51 | <siraben> | clearer* |
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| 12:37:08 | <sshine> | ah |
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| 12:37:30 | <sshine> | I'm not sure how to use recursion-schemes on arbitrary syntax trees that aren't lists and rose-trees. |
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| 12:39:24 | <siraben> | sshine: Similar to how you did it in src/Dagger/Contract.hs, define the base functor then `Fix` it |
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| 12:39:52 | <siraben> | Argh, lenses have such poor type errors |
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| 12:41:35 | <sshine> | ah, I wasn't looking in Data.Functor.Foldable.TH which appears to have the recipe for doing this to your own type... I try to avoid TH when I can get most without. |
| 12:41:45 | <sshine> | siraben, optics! |
| 12:42:34 | <siraben> | sshine: oh great, now the code would look even more natural than writing in open recursive style |
| 12:42:55 | <sshine> | siraben, apropos? |
| 12:43:17 | <siraben> | apropos? |
| 12:43:32 | <sshine> | oh you mean using data-fix / recursion-schemes is a boon? |
| 12:43:37 | <sshine> | it certainly seems so :) |
| 12:43:37 | <siraben> | sshine: Oh I was referring to your TH discovery |
| 12:43:40 | <sshine> | ah |
| 12:44:42 | <siraben> | IMO using these abstractions are nice but when they start impacting readability for others, I weigh that too. Even beginner Haskellers can read a normal `Expr a` declaration, so that's great. |
| 12:44:52 | <sshine> | yes. |
| 12:45:23 | <sshine> | I'm still evaluating whether Fix will mess up things or make things easier for people less experienced than myself. |
| 12:45:59 | <sshine> | there will be a bunch of 'Fix' constructors, like the bug I experienced, that will clutter the view. |
| 12:47:14 | <siraben> | sshine: Is this a new smart contract language? |
| 12:47:16 | <sshine> | I compared the optparse-generic library with/without TH magic for type-level --help hints... there is very little overhead and it is easily extensible without having to understand how it does what it does. |
| 12:47:36 | <sshine> | siraben, no, it's the same. I'm just generalising the Contract type so that it can more easily target multiple blockchains. |
| 12:47:44 | <troydm> | hey guys! I'm trying to implement show for IOUArray and I'm getting ‘show’ is not a (visible) method of class ‘IOUArray’, with GHC 8.2.2, any suggestions& |
| 12:47:46 | <troydm> | ? |
| 12:48:08 | <carbolymer> | [exa], thanks; by long-living thread I meant another thread from forkIO - but If they're very "green" I think wrapping each rabbimq publish in `async` will be fine in my case;) |
| 12:48:29 | <sshine> | siraben, also, the original author of the compiler simplified a few things and I added let-expressions. |
| 12:49:04 | <sshine> | siraben, but it's mostly the same concept, just different ideas of execution runtimes. :) |
| 12:49:15 | <sshine> | siraben, how's your macro language going? |
| 12:49:40 | <siraben> | sshine: Perhaps we should move this conversation to the evm-lang-design gitter channel |
| 12:50:16 | <[exa]> | carbolymer: yeah, in fact that's the recommended way for network programming afaik |
| 12:50:28 | hackage | stylish-haskell 0.12.2.0 - Haskell code prettifier https://hackage.haskell.org/package/stylish-haskell-0.12.2.0 (JasperVanDerJeugt) |
| 12:50:57 | <carbolymer> | [exa], to spawn new threads when pushing things to avoid blocking? |
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| 12:51:47 | <[exa]> | carbolymer: yeah, the threads are cheap and the internal eventloop is pretty good. you may also check the rabbitmq wrapper, I'd expect that it already does something like that internally |
| 12:51:57 | hackage | network-transport-tests 0.3.0 - Unit tests for Network.Transport implementations https://hackage.haskell.org/package/network-transport-tests-0.3.0 (FacundoDominguez) |
| 12:52:38 | <[exa]> | troydm: can you share a bit of code that doesn't work? (first guess, are you writing the instance of Show?) |
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| 12:55:21 | <carbolymer> | [exa], you mean amqp library? the publishMsg pushes message to mvar and blocks, hence why I want to wrap it in async |
| 12:56:14 | <troydm> | [exa]: https://pastebin.com/BZ08cd7X |
| 12:56:17 | <troydm> | [exa]: yes |
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| 12:56:39 | <[exa]> | carbolymer: maybe better have a channel for throwing the messages at, and a "worker thread" that just forwards the stuff to publishMsg ? |
| 12:57:37 | <carbolymer> | [exa], yep, but if those threads are so "green" is it worth the effort to implement this "worker thread"? |
| 12:57:51 | <[exa]> | carbolymer: I wouldn't bother until there's a proof that it's too slow |
| 12:58:05 | <carbolymer> | [exa], that's exactly my reasoning ;) |
| 12:58:07 | <[exa]> | how many thousand messages per second do you want to pass through? :D |
| 12:58:26 | <jackdk> | sshine: if you're doing languagey-stuff with recursion schemes, this post might interest you: http://newartisans.com/2018/04/win-for-recursion-schemes/ |
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| 12:59:05 | <carbolymer> | [exa], a dozen of messages per second in high traffic ;] |
| 12:59:18 | <[exa]> | troydm: okay, you need to write a Show behind the =>, this way you are instancing IOUArray typeclass |
| 12:59:28 | <[exa]> | carbolymer: </care> |
| 12:59:43 | <carbolymer> | yeah |
| 13:00:17 | <troydm> | [exa]: oic |
| 13:00:48 | <[exa]> | troydm: I guess the instance should read "If the HType e is showable, IOUArray i e should also be showable" right? |
| 13:01:33 | <troydm> | [exa]: yeah, well, sometimes I have no idea what I'm writing and if it compiles it usually works, but I have no idea how it works |
| 13:02:33 | <troydm> | [exa]: I just need to make instance of IOUArray Int64 HType showable |
| 13:02:44 | <troydm> | [exa]: and I'm bit struggling |
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| 13:03:28 | <[exa]> | troydm: you are using HType there as a higher-order type constant, which it is not. I guess you want: |
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| 13:03:37 | <sshine> | jackdk, thanks! I am. |
| 13:04:10 | <[exa]> | troydm: instance Show e => Show (IOUArray i e) where .... (which says "IOUArray of e's is showable if there's a way of showing he e's) |
| 13:04:28 | <[exa]> | *the |
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| 13:06:05 | <sshine> | jackdk, excellent article, thank you. :) |
| 13:06:13 | <sshine> | jackdk, I |
| 13:06:20 | <sshine> | jackdk, I'll look into it and do a comparison. |
| 13:06:26 | <troydm> | [exa]: Could not deduce (MArray IOUArray e []) |
| 13:06:28 | <troydm> | arising from a use of âgetElems’ |
| 13:06:33 | <troydm> | [exa]: is what I get |
| 13:06:45 | <troydm> | [exa]: when I change it to what you've suggested |
| 13:06:52 | <[exa]> | ok we're getting closer |
| 13:07:03 | <troydm> | [exa]: which is a bit confusing |
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| 13:07:33 | <[exa]> | it also needs some assurance that you are not running this on an array that wouldn't have a workable getElems |
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| 13:08:26 | <[exa]> | troydm: (also that `i` is an actual index as in Ix ) |
| 13:08:51 | <[exa]> | you can have a look at the type of getElems here https://hackage.haskell.org/package/array-0.5.4.0/docs/Data-Array-MArray.html#v:getElems to see how much assurance it requires to work |
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| 13:10:14 | <[exa]> | you actually need to declare your typeclass instance with the same (or stricter) conditions, because otherwise you'd be "promising" to deliver instances that can not work |
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| 13:12:17 | <[exa]> | so in our case, the instance should read, very roughly: If `i` is an Ix index, if `e` is showable by Show, and if the IOUArray forms a `MArray IOUArray e m` for some `m`, you can also show `IOUArray i e` |
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| 13:13:51 | <[exa]> | now you should notice the obvious problem; `getElems` is a monadic action of the monad `m`, I'm not sure you'll be able to fit that into a normal `show` that must return a "pure" String |
| 13:16:01 | <troydm> | [exa]: No instance for (MArray IOUArray HType []) <= what's [] in this? |
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| 13:16:45 | <[exa]> | troydm: you are trying to use `map show` on `m e` returned from getElems, so it assumes that you know what are you doing and that m==[] |
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| 13:17:12 | <troydm> | [exa]: ohh fuck I've missed that m a part of getElems |
| 13:17:14 | <[exa]> | obviously that MArray instance does not exist, I assume it will require `m` to be IO or something similarly powerful |
| 13:17:26 | <troydm> | [exa]: are there any good MArray examples out there |
| 13:17:51 | <[exa]> | yeah, as MVector... :] |
| 13:17:57 | <troydm> | ohh I've could do the obvious, unsafeIOPerform |
| 13:18:03 | <[exa]> | please don't :D |
| 13:18:16 | <[exa]> | btw why do you need the thing mutable? |
| 13:19:12 | <troydm> | [exa]: well I'm trying to write R7RS scheme interpreter, so I need a vector elements to be mutable |
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| 13:22:24 | <troydm> | [exa]: well, even with unsafePerformIO, I get No instance for (MArray IOUArray HType IO) |
| 13:23:07 | <dminuoso> | Is there a way to have `foo $ \do -> \n ...` with the following block at the same indention as `foo`? |
| 13:23:23 | <dminuoso> | I have the problem of deeply nested callbacks here |
| 13:23:28 | <dminuoso> | Or is ContT my only solution here? |
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| 13:29:17 | <[exa]> | troydm: okay, then it should _not_ have any showable representation, a mutable state cannot be exported. Just supply a dummy |
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| 13:38:43 | <cohn> | can anyone recommend any books on learning parallel and concurrent Haskell? The book by Simon Marlow seems to be a good bit out of date at this point. |
| 13:38:53 | <dminuoso> | cohn: Simon Marlows book. |
| 13:39:14 | <dminuoso> | There are no other good resources Im aware of. |
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| 13:41:31 | <cohn> | dminuoso: ok. I ask because I've worked through a few examples and it seems like some of the syntax used in the book is no longer valid |
| 13:41:45 | <dminuoso> | Can you give some examples? |
| 13:43:13 | <cohn> | GHC complains about this line for one: https://github.com/simonmar/parconc-examples/blob/master/Sudoku.hs#L77 |
| 13:43:31 | <dminuoso> | Can you share the diagnostic it gives? |
| 13:43:34 | <cohn> | even tried setting it up in an isolated Stack environment and no good |
| 13:43:38 | <cohn> | sure, one sec |
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| 13:45:47 | <cohn> | https://pastebin.com/LLndiZyi |
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| 13:46:00 | <cohn> | that's actually from the HLS, but you get the idea |
| 13:46:01 | <cohn> | :D |
| 13:46:52 | <dminuoso> | cohn: Do you have overloaded strings turned on? |
| 13:47:14 | <cohn> | yes |
| 13:47:26 | <dminuoso> | Try giving the string an explicit annotation then. |
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| 13:47:40 | <cohn> | like "foo" :: String? |
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| 13:47:49 | <dminuoso> | Yeah |
| 13:47:53 | <dminuoso> | Or actually, do you have OverloadedLists as well? |
| 13:48:10 | <cohn> | no |
| 13:48:13 | <cohn> | try it? |
| 13:48:22 | <dminuoso> | No. |
| 13:48:32 | <dminuoso> | % :set -XOverloadedStrings |
| 13:48:32 | <yahb> | dminuoso: |
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| 13:49:10 | <dminuoso> | % regularGrid g = if all (`elem` "0.-123456789") g then Just g else Nothing |
| 13:49:10 | <yahb> | dminuoso: ; <interactive>:83:21: error:; Ambiguous occurrence `all'; It could refer to; either `Text.all', imported from `Data.Text'; or `Prelude.all', imported from `Prelude' (and originally defined in `Data.Foldable') |
| 13:49:14 | <dminuoso> | % :set -XNoOverloadedStrings |
| 13:49:15 | <yahb> | dminuoso: |
| 13:49:16 | <dminuoso> | % regularGrid g = if all (`elem` "0.-123456789") g then Just g else Nothing |
| 13:49:16 | <yahb> | dminuoso: ; <interactive>:85:21: error:; Ambiguous occurrence `all'; It could refer to; either `Text.all', imported from `Data.Text'; or `Prelude.all', imported from `Prelude' (and originally defined in `Data.Foldable') |
| 13:49:22 | <dminuoso> | % regularGrid g = if Prelude.all (`elem` "0.-123456789") g then Just g else Nothing |
| 13:49:22 | <yahb> | dminuoso: |
| 13:49:35 | <dminuoso> | cohn: Ah I mispasted. But anyway, OverloadedStrings is the cause here. |
| 13:49:40 | <dminuoso> | Consider: |
| 13:50:09 | <dminuoso> | "0.-123456789" is a polymorphic type, but so is `elem` |
| 13:50:15 | <cohn> | I ran `stack ghci`, got the error, then entered `:set -XOverloadedStrings` into ghci followed by `:r`. Same error. : |
| 13:50:23 | <dminuoso> | So it cant infer that "0.-123..." is even a list |
| 13:50:36 | <dminuoso> | cohn: No, you need to set -XNoOverloadedStrings |
| 13:50:40 | <cohn> | oh! |
| 13:50:42 | <dminuoso> | Just to verify locally |
| 13:50:44 | <cohn> | lemme try that |
| 13:50:44 | <dminuoso> | But anyway |
| 13:50:46 | <dminuoso> | 15:47:40 cohn | like "foo" :: String? |
| 13:50:51 | <dminuoso> | That is a drop-in workaround. |
| 13:51:05 | <dminuoso> | Or you annotate `elem` |
| 13:51:25 | <cohn> | ok, it works when using `:set -XNoOverloadedStrings` |
| 13:51:28 | <cohn> | interdesting |
| 13:51:40 | <dminuoso> | cohn: Consider this trivial example: |
| 13:51:42 | <dminuoso> | % :t elem |
| 13:51:42 | <yahb> | dminuoso: (Foldable t, Eq a) => a -> t a -> Bool |
| 13:51:52 | <dminuoso> | % :t null |
| 13:51:52 | <yahb> | dminuoso: ; <interactive>:1:1: error:; Ambiguous occurrence `null'; It could refer to; either `Text.null', imported from `Data.Text'; or `Prelude.null', imported from `Prelude' (and originally defined in `Data.Foldable') |
| 13:51:55 | <dminuoso> | % :t Prelude.null |
| 13:51:55 | <yahb> | dminuoso: Foldable t => t a -> Bool |
| 13:52:04 | <dminuoso> | % :t fromString "foo" |
| 13:52:04 | <yahb> | dminuoso: IsString a => a |
| 13:52:14 | <dminuoso> | Prelude.null (fromString "foo") |
| 13:52:23 | <dminuoso> | What should that give you? What Foldable instance should be selected? |
| 13:52:58 | <dminuoso> | So it's your mistake at the end for using OverloadedStrings. :) |
| 13:53:04 | <cohn> | hah |
| 13:53:06 | <cohn> | good point |
| 13:53:30 | <cohn> | yea, I can see why GHC would get confused |
| 13:53:43 | <cohn> | dminuoso: thanks so much! |
| 13:53:51 | <dminuoso> | You're welcome. |
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| 13:54:04 | <cohn> | :D |
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| 13:57:54 | <cohn> | dminuoso: I can't build the package the author published for the book: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/parconc-examples |
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| 13:58:19 | <cohn> | though it seems like a problem with a 3rd party package and not the parconc-examples package |
| 13:58:55 | <dminuoso> | Do you get some particular error message? |
| 13:58:57 | hackage | boilerplate 0.0.2 - Generate Haskell boilerplate. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/boilerplate-0.0.2 (tseenshe) |
| 13:59:04 | <cohn> | I get this: https://pastebin.com/gZpSC8kv |
| 14:00:36 | <cohn> | using cabal to build seems to pinpoint the problem: https://pastebin.com/vBuc4FrW |
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| 14:01:10 | <dminuoso> | In case of `cabal` the problem is that your GHC is too new. |
| 14:01:18 | <dminuoso> | The package is no longer maintained, so you need an older GHC |
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| 14:01:28 | <dminuoso> | Unless you're willing to experiment bumping the bounds. |
| 14:01:33 | <cohn> | not really. ; ) |
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| 14:01:40 | <cohn> | easy enough to just ghcup |
| 14:01:42 | <dminuoso> | Right |
| 14:02:03 | <dminuoso> | 8.6.5 should be fine |
| 14:02:15 | <dminuoso> | no wait, you need 8.4 |
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| 14:03:58 | <sshine> | bumping bounds isn't hard or longwinded, though. |
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| 14:04:37 | <cohn> | sshine: it would just require some code refactoring, then submit a Github PR? |
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| 14:04:50 | <sshine> | yup! |
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| 14:05:10 | <sshine> | and in the meantime, you can always refer to your copy of the github repo. |
| 14:05:38 | <cohn> | that could be an interesting project to help me get more experience reading/writing Haskell code. |
| 14:05:41 | <sshine> | cohn, probably only changing the bounds in the .cabal file. |
| 14:05:58 | hackage | network-transport-tcp 0.8.0 - TCP instantiation of Network.Transport https://hackage.haskell.org/package/network-transport-tcp-0.8.0 (FacundoDominguez) |
| 14:06:00 | <cohn> | oh |
| 14:07:54 | <dminuoso> | cohn: In general Id prefer to bump bounds. Even if it is some minor work, it's contributions that everybody else will benefit from. |
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| 14:11:57 | <cohn> | agreed |
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| 14:21:28 | hackage | mmsyn7s 0.9.0.0 - Shows a sorted list of the Ukrainian sounds representations that can be used by mmsyn7 series of programs https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mmsyn7s-0.9.0.0 (OleksandrZhabenko) |
| 14:22:28 | hackage | phonetic-languages-rhythmicity 0.1.0.0 - Allows to estimate the rhythmicity metrices for the text (usually, the Ukrainian poetic one) https://hackage.haskell.org/package/phonetic-languages-rhythmicity-0.1.0.0 (OleksandrZhabenko) |
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| 14:40:58 | hackage | futhark 0.18.1 - An optimising compiler for a functional, array-oriented language. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/futhark-0.18.1 (TroelsHenriksen) |
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| 14:50:27 | hackage | phonetic-languages-rhythmicity 0.1.0.1 - Allows to estimate the rhythmicity metrices for the text (usually, the Ukrainian poetic one) https://hackage.haskell.org/package/phonetic-languages-rhythmicity-0.1.0.1 (OleksandrZhabenko) |
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| 15:00:27 | hackage | uniqueness-periods-vector-properties 0.4.0.0 - Metrices for the maximum element for the uniqueness-periods-vector packages family. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/uniqueness-periods-vector-properties-0.4.0.0 (OleksandrZhabenko) |
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| 15:02:07 | <dminuoso> | ghc: panic! (the 'impossible' happened) (GHC version 8.10.1:Loading temp shared object failed: /run/user/1000/ghc16141_0/libghc_5.so: undefined symbol: crypt |
| 15:02:09 | <dminuoso> | Bingo! |
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| 15:02:43 | <dminuoso> | Ah, wrong channel |
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| 15:11:27 | hackage | uniqueness-periods-vector-properties 0.4.0.1 - Metrices for the maximum element for the uniqueness-periods-vector packages family. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/uniqueness-periods-vector-properties-0.4.0.1 (OleksandrZhabenko) |
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| 15:27:01 | <tomsmeding> | 'impossible' |
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| 15:28:30 | <dminuoso> | Yeah.. Im really staring at the weirdest wall ever. |
| 15:29:13 | <dminuoso> | https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/0932484d82167ffad98baaf3348f5126 |
| 15:29:19 | <dminuoso> | This is enough to completely bug out GHC :S |
| 15:29:29 | <dminuoso> | On some strange linker errors on a completely unrelated library |
| 15:30:05 | <Cheery> | When I paste stuff into slack or discourse, it summarizes the link for me. I'd love to have that in my blog as well. |
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| 15:30:45 | <sshine> | I'm sure there's a javascript for it. |
| 15:31:16 | <dminuoso> | Im fairly sure that both slack and discourse use some "standard" library js library too. |
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| 15:32:55 | <monochrom> | @quote autrijus impossible |
| 15:32:55 | <lambdabot> | autrijus says: Perl: "Easy things are easy, hard things are possible" <autrijus> Haskell: "Hard things are easy, the impossible just happened" |
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| 15:38:47 | <Cheery> | :D I saw somebody has written a summarizer in haskell. |
| 15:39:00 | <Cheery> | https://github.com/amliby/summary |
| 15:39:04 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: well at least you have a nice, small test case :) |
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| 15:40:20 | <siraben> | Does anyone know if Emacs' `lsp-haskell` package has support for case splitting yet? |
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| 15:40:32 | <siraben> | It's been added in haskell-language-server 0.5.0.0 |
| 15:40:37 | <Cheery> | I'm too old to write a html parser myself when I need one. Not youthful enough to read a spec. |
| 15:41:15 | <Cheery> | I'm glad I found a good HTML5 parser though. |
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| 15:50:01 | <siraben> | Ok so it looks like I have to do `s-l a a` to show the list of actions |
| 15:50:09 | <siraben> | Holy hell, this is insane, like Agda-style holes. |
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| 15:53:02 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: One that makes absolute no sense. |
| 15:53:14 | <tomsmeding> | those are the best |
| 15:53:21 | <dminuoso> | What does quasiquoters have to do with linking completely unrelated external libraries... |
| 15:53:26 | <dminuoso> | Im smelling some memory corruption here. |
| 15:53:30 | <tomsmeding> | ooooooooh |
| 15:53:32 | <dminuoso> | Or some internal corruption |
| 15:53:45 | <tomsmeding> | I've always known that TH is trouble |
| 15:53:57 | <dminuoso> | well, QQ are much more harmless. |
| 15:54:12 | <dminuoso> | In fact, the splice is just an Exp splice.. |
| 15:54:22 | <dminuoso> | It doesn't get more harmless than that. :( |
| 15:54:27 | <tomsmeding> | claim :) |
| 15:54:32 | <tomsmeding> | apparently |
| 15:54:39 | <dminuoso> | Well who knows |
| 15:54:49 | <dminuoso> | Perhaps this is just some unrelated bug that my code shuffling manifests. |
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| 15:55:05 | <dminuoso> | Ill have to do a bisect on ghc |
| 15:55:21 | <monochrom> | yikes |
| 15:56:05 | <dminuoso> | In fact, if you looked at the QQ, it's like a totally trivial 3 lines QQ... |
| 15:56:12 | <monochrom> | maybe also reproduce it on another computer, just to be sure you don't have a RAM problem |
| 15:56:30 | <dminuoso> | Well I have 16GiB of ram. This module is very harmless otherwise |
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| 15:56:43 | <monochrom> | I mean faulty RAM |
| 15:56:55 | <dminuoso> | Well, this triggers *very* consistently with the diff applied... |
| 15:56:59 | <dminuoso> | by very I mean 100% |
| 15:57:20 | <leungbk> | Would anyone mind helping me make this more memory-efficient and idiomatic? https://paste.debian.net/1166370 |
| 15:57:46 | <leungbk> | I tried running my solution in a practice coding competition but the automated judge said it used too much memory. |
| 15:57:55 | <dminuoso> | leungbk: run with `+RTS p -RTS` and include the output |
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| 15:59:57 | hackage | HaTeX 3.22.3.0 - The Haskell LaTeX library. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/HaTeX-3.22.3.0 (DanielDiaz) |
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| 16:00:43 | <leungbk> | dminuoso: I'm not entirely sure how to execute it locally. Whenever I compile with `ghc dijkstra.hs` and `ghc -o a.out dijkstra.o`, I get errors like `error: undefined reference to 'containerszm0zi6zi2zi1_DataziSetziInternal_minView` |
| 16:01:01 | <leungbk> | Which is weird since `containers` is built in to ghc 8.8.4 |
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| 16:03:16 | <c_wraith> | skip the second line. ghc builds the binary as its output unless you ask it to do otherwise, and has for like 10 years now |
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| 16:07:22 | <leungbk> | Sorry, my irc client died just now and didn't save the chat log; would someone mind reposting the `+RTS -p ...` bit from a few mins ago? |
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| 16:07:43 | <monochrom> | <dminuoso> leungbk: run with `+RTS p -RTS` and include the output |
| 16:07:53 | <c_wraith> | for compiling locally, just use `ghc dijkstra.hs` |
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| 16:08:06 | <c_wraith> | it compiles and links in a single invocation |
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| 16:09:51 | <c_wraith> | anyway, it's very probable there's a space leak in the foldl' starting on line 18. |
| 16:10:32 | <dminuoso> | Keep in mind you'll have to compile the program and dependencies with profiling |
| 16:10:40 | <dminuoso> | So it's probably best to quickly wrap that into a cabal project |
| 16:10:54 | <c_wraith> | all the foldl' is doing is making sure the tuple is evaluated. That's probably not what you meant. |
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| 16:11:27 | <leungbk> | dminuoso: So, `./dijkstra +RTS p -RTS`? The executable says `dijkstra: unexpected RTS argument: p`. |
| 16:11:43 | <c_wraith> | you need to add -rtsopts to the flags when compiling |
| 16:11:59 | <leungbk> | This is simply a standalone file for a practice coding competition. |
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| 16:13:32 | <leungbk> | c_wraith: I think that's what I meant? I wanted the tuple to be evaled since I needed to construct an updated distance/predecessor/set to use for the next call of `loop` |
| 16:14:11 | <c_wraith> | you want *the components* of the tuple to be evaluated. |
| 16:14:22 | <c_wraith> | You're telling it to stop after it gets the (,,) constructor |
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| 16:16:08 | <monochrom> | TIL: cabal repl sets the environment variable HASKELL_DIST_DIR to e.g. /home/trebla/tmp/quv/dist-newstyle/build/x86_64-linux/ghc-8.8.4/quv-0.1.0.0/x/quv |
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| 16:16:38 | <leungbk> | I'm confused. How would I evaluate the components of the tuple without doing something like a simultaneous fold of the tuple's components? |
| 16:17:00 | <c_wraith> | leungbk: in particular, nothing in the loop causes the second or third elements of the tuple to be evaluated during the loop. |
| 16:17:29 | <Cale> | leungbk: Either pattern matching on them, or using seq would do it. |
| 16:17:37 | <monochrom> | I was kind of looking for that because if you use --builddir=foo then it will be s/dist-newstyle/foo/ and I was wondering if I wrote my own tool how would I know that. |
| 16:17:55 | <c_wraith> | So both of those elements are chains of thunks that refer to the entire history of Set/Map insert calls |
| 16:18:44 | <leungbk> | c_wraith: So strict-eval would solve the memory issue? That's unexpected to me since Set and IntMap.strict are evaluated strictly afaiu. |
| 16:19:27 | hackage | reflex-dom-pandoc 0.6.0.0 - Render Pandoc documents to HTML using reflex-dom https://hackage.haskell.org/package/reflex-dom-pandoc-0.6.0.0 (sridca) |
| 16:19:29 | <c_wraith> | The easiest fix is turning on the BangPatterns extension and modifying the lambda to look at (!oldDistances, !oldTree, !oldPredecessors) |
| 16:20:46 | <c_wraith> | leungbk: that means *when they are forced to be evaluated* that they will be evaluated "fully" (to within the requirements of the type. Set only evaluates as much as necessary to balance the tree, Map only evaluates the keys as much as necessary to balance the tree and the values to WHNF) |
| 16:20:51 | <monochrom> | The example I shown was from an exe-only package. I wonder if it's different for a lib package, or I guess more precisely a lib target "cabal repl exe:..." vs "cabal repl lib:..." |
| 16:21:36 | <c_wraith> | leungbk: but your loop never does anything to cause oldTree or oldPredecessors to be evaluated at all. |
| 16:21:42 | <monochrom> | c_wraith: Good eyes, I missed that. |
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| 16:22:12 | <c_wraith> | leungbk: all it does with them is throw them into a thunk behind the (,,) constructor |
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| 16:23:10 | <c_wraith> | leungbk: and so when foldl' forces the state to WHNF for the next iteration, the (,,) constructor is evaluated, but no further. |
| 16:23:38 | <c_wraith> | monochrom: It's the first thing I look for when someone asks about too much memory use :) |
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| 16:25:06 | <monochrom> | I looked for that too, but failed. |
| 16:25:26 | <leungbk> | c_wraith: Thanks a lot, I think I'm getting a better sense of the issue. I'll need to investigate more on my own. |
| 16:25:43 | <monochrom> | I stopped after I checked that "nextDist = du + weight" is kosher because "nextDist < ..." happened right away. |
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| 16:35:31 | <troydm> | what's easies way to strip .0 from number? |
| 16:36:04 | <troydm> | like I have Double, and I want to print it without leading .0 |
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| 16:41:27 | <[exa]> | troydm: can you throw a few examples? |
| 16:41:49 | <[exa]> | 'stripping .0' sounds like 'round' or 'truncate' but no idea if that's precisely what you wanted |
| 16:42:01 | <troydm> | [exa]: nvm, figured it out |
| 16:42:11 | <[exa]> | uh ok |
| 16:42:49 | <geekosaur> | sounds like they discovered printf %g appending ".0" and wanting it not to |
| 16:42:59 | <geekosaur> | or show |
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| 16:45:13 | <Clint> | people use %g? |
| 16:45:33 | <geekosaur> | someone asked abou it the other day in here |
| 16:46:20 | <Clint> | hmm |
| 16:46:49 | <geekosaur> | of course, there's also "people use printf?" but there's no accounting for taste |
| 16:47:12 | <geekosaur> | but I think showGFloat has the same behavior |
| 16:49:01 | <maralorn> | Does anyone know of a Code formater that preserves or even introduces { ; } for all layout blocks? |
| 16:49:58 | <geekosaur> | does SPJ count? |
| 16:50:39 | <c_wraith> | he's not very automatic |
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| 16:56:45 | <maralorn> | Who? |
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| 16:57:59 | <ski> | SPJ |
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| 17:00:47 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 17:01:48 | <monochrom> | I think the real objection is economical. SPJ is too expensive to hire for code formatting. |
| 17:02:20 | <maerwald> | wow, that would be a boss move... |
| 17:02:34 | <maerwald> | "what's your code formatter?" - "SPJ" |
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| 17:02:39 | <dolio> | I would never let SPJ format my code. |
| 17:02:41 | <monochrom> | hehe |
| 17:02:50 | <dolio> | He uses all kinds of braces and semicolons. |
| 17:03:08 | <monochrom> | That's exactly what maralorn was looking for. |
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| 17:03:20 | <maerwald> | a man with taste |
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| 17:03:44 | <monochrom> | I used to do that. But only to make an old emacs haskell-mode indenter happy. |
| 17:03:47 | <dolio> | Oh, I see. :) |
| 17:04:12 | <monochrom> | But it's really old, today's version works much better now, no need to help it with SPJ format. |
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| 17:04:56 | <maralorn> | Wait, are you telling me he's the only one who likes that code style? |
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| 17:05:05 | <maralorn> | I admit I think ghc and #haskell-onliners are the only two places I have ever seen them used.^^ |
| 17:05:06 | <Habib> | why does cabal v2-install work the first time i install a package then fail subsequent times until i clear the store and the environment file? |
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| 17:05:11 | <Habib> | https://pastebin.com/raw/HB6R1fdw |
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| 17:05:14 | <Cale> | The GHC source code is like a Haskell style guide in the form of a cautionary tale |
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| 17:06:09 | <dolio> | SPJ is the only one I know of. It's possible some of the other original folks like it. |
| 17:06:17 | <maerwald> | Habib: because env files are awful and no one uses them |
| 17:06:17 | <maralorn> | You know, that conversation only made me want that feature so much more. |
| 17:06:25 | <Cale> | I think Richard likes it as well |
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| 17:06:51 | <Cale> | But moreso, the thing I really can't stand is all the incomprehensibly abbreviated names |
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| 17:07:29 | <maralorn> | So, what formatter do you people recommend should I make "Add --spj flag" PR against? |
| 17:07:44 | <Habib> | maerwald: but cabal uses a default environment file, anyway |
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| 17:07:55 | <maralorn> | Cale: That's true. Those are offensive. |
| 17:08:10 | <Habib> | if i didn't specify the environment, it'd just mean it affects my default environment file |
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| 17:08:50 | <dolio> | Richard's a new kid, though. :) |
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| 17:08:56 | <ghoulguy> | Habib: What version of cabal-install are you asking about? |
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| 17:09:12 | <Habib> | i'm trying to install some packages to a separate store for strictly ghci use, so i can create some nice helper functions in ghci, then remove them from scope completely and even hide the packages/package-db after i'm done so they don't conflict with my usual package db |
| 17:09:21 | <Habib> | cabal-install 3.2.0.0 |
| 17:09:32 | <Habib> | sorry, my bad, 3.4.0.0 |
| 17:10:08 | <monochrom> | I think I don't have this problem with 3.2 |
| 17:10:41 | <dolio> | Did Miranda have a non-layout syntax that served as the target for layout? I was kind of wondering if SPJ is the only reason Haskell does. |
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| 17:11:14 | <Habib> | i want to run a :!cabal v2-install --options-for-separate-store packages... at the start of my ghci, so i can always have the right dependencies, use them, then hide them once the helper functions have been defined |
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| 17:13:14 | <maralorn> | otoh, naming variables is one of the three great challenges of programming. so having any policy for it is much more important, than which policy. |
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| 17:14:51 | <Habib> | i think i installed 3.4.0.0 to get access to the 3.4.0.0 format version so i didn't have to specify default-language in my cabal file (it's optional in later version), but ended up deciding i want the default-language explicit anyway, so i guess i could downgrade and try again |
| 17:15:00 | <Habib> | 3.4.0.0 is in rc stage anyway |
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| 17:18:13 | <Habib> | hmm… 3.2.0.0 behaves the same |
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| 17:19:43 | <monochrom> | Then again I didn't try for packages like process that already come with GHC. I only tried like hmatrix and vector and random. |
| 17:21:37 | <Habib> | monochrom: when you say process comes with ghc, do you mean as part of the haskell platform? |
| 17:21:55 | <Habib> | because i can't import it without installing it |
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| 17:22:15 | <monochrom> | "comes with haskell platform" is true but much weaker than "comes with GHC" |
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| 17:22:28 | hackage | commander-cli 0.10.1.0 - A command line argument/option parser library https://hackage.haskell.org/package/commander-cli-0.10.1.0 (sgschlesinger) |
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| 17:22:48 | <Habib> | i don't understand how it comes with ghc then, if i can't import it without installing it with cabal |
| 17:23:05 | <geekosaur> | if you installed ghc from some OS package then it may have been split out by the packager |
| 17:23:08 | <Habib> | what libraries come with ghc then? |
| 17:23:21 | <geekosaur> | if you install from a tarball or ghcup then you have process and a few other libraries |
| 17:23:45 | <Habib> | is there an authoritative list of libraries that come with ghc vs. the haskell platform |
| 17:23:48 | <monochrom> | Everything here comes with GHC 8.10.1: https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/8.10.1/docs/html/libraries/index.html |
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| 17:24:21 | <Habib> | the conflict message does seem to point to a conflict between that version of process and the version of ghc |
| 17:24:38 | <Habib> | but i don't understand why it only conflicts after it's already successfully installed teh first time |
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| 17:25:21 | <monochrom> | Is there, really, a version of haskell platform that has/uses/whatever GHC 8.10.1 ??!!! |
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| 17:26:06 | <Habib> | and even then, if i install the exact version that comes with ghc 8.10.1, which is 1.6.8.2, it fails |
| 17:26:13 | <monochrom> | More generally, Haskell Platform is basically an obsoleted concept. There hasn't been any update. |
| 17:26:23 | <Habib> | monochrom: i don't know, i don't even know if the platform is still around |
| 17:26:51 | <monochrom> | But your GHC is 8.10.1 so you are not using any kind of Haskell Platform. |
| 17:26:58 | <Habib> | next question i should ask is why my bloody irc client won't even scroll automatically |
| 17:27:19 | <Habib> | sorry… i don't actually want to ask that |
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| 17:28:23 | <Habib> | anyway, regardless, process-1.6.8.2 comes with ghc 8.10.1, which is what i'm on |
| 17:28:27 | <AWizzArd> | Are Snaplets something that might be called "Middleware" in other servers? |
| 17:28:37 | <Habib> | yet it succeeds installation the first time, then fails any subsequent installs |
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| 17:39:07 | <Habib> | hmm, looks like i do have process in my default package db |
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| 17:39:48 | <Habib> | i just didn't know it was a default package at the time, so i wanted to ensure it was installed by cabal and that if it tried to install it and it was already installed, it wouldn't fail |
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| 17:41:16 | <Habib> | still, this behaviour isn't expected |
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| 17:41:37 | <Habib> | is System.Process part of Haskell2010? |
| 17:41:51 | <geekosaur> | no |
| 17:42:19 | <geekosaur> | it is part of the implementation of ghc, hence of ghc-lib which is part of ghc |
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| 17:43:07 | <Habib> | just checked, it isn't |
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| 17:43:28 | <Habib> | ack, i keep repeating what people have already said |
| 17:43:40 | <Habib> | i really need to get my irc scroll checked |
| 17:45:09 | <Habib> | i'm gonna try this on a clean environment with a non-bundled library like aeson |
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| 17:47:28 | hackage | commander-cli 0.10.1.1 - A command line argument/option parser library https://hackage.haskell.org/package/commander-cli-0.10.1.1 (sgschlesinger) |
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| 17:52:00 | <Habib> | hmm, aeson just says “Up to date” when installing it and it's already there. something weird going on with process, perhaps due to being a bundled library already |
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| 17:57:35 | <sbp> | anybody know if Chris Penner hangs around here? |
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| 18:16:44 | <dsal> | I've seen him now and then. |
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| 18:24:18 | <snyp> | "StateT Maybe a" vs "MaybeT State a" - don't you have to read the implementation to see how they're different? |
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| 18:26:15 | <geekosaur> | no? you know that if the outer MaybeT fails you lose the State inside, whereas if reversed you keep the state, because it's outside |
| 18:27:56 | <sbp> | dsal: ah. under what nickname? |
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| 18:28:47 | <lyxia> | sbp: he's on slack (functionalprogramming) under his own name. |
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| 18:30:04 | <snyp> | geekosaur: Does "MaybeT State a" ever make sense to use? |
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| 18:30:26 | <geekosaur> | if the state is irrelevant in case of failure, yes |
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| 18:33:33 | Gurkenglas_ | is now known as Gurkenglas |
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| 18:34:10 | <AWizzArd> | Can I use the unicode char `μ` in data constructors? I.e. data TimeUnit = NS | μs | MS | S |
| 18:34:32 | <geekosaur> | it's a letter character, so yes |
| 18:34:37 | <ski> | > isUpper 'μ' |
| 18:34:40 | <lambdabot> | False |
| 18:34:50 | <geekosaur> | oh, good point |
| 18:34:52 | <PerryThePlatypus> | Hey, I wanted to improve my Haskell skillz. I wanted to try LeetCode but unfortunately they do not support Haskell. Any alternatives in mind? I don't need online IDE. |
| 18:34:56 | <geekosaur> | has to be uppercase |
| 18:35:35 | <AWizzArd> | Okay. |
| 18:35:47 | <ski> | @unmtl StateT s (MaybeT m) a |
| 18:35:47 | <lambdabot> | s -> m (Maybe (a, s)) |
| 18:35:48 | <ski> | @unmtl MaybeT (StateT s m) a |
| 18:35:49 | <lambdabot> | s -> m (Maybe a, s) |
| 18:35:51 | <ski> | snyp ^ |
| 18:36:17 | <geekosaur> | hm |
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| 18:37:26 | <AWizzArd> | > isUpper 'Μ' |
| 18:37:29 | <lambdabot> | True |
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| 18:37:45 | <AWizzArd> | > (isUpper 'Μ', 'Μ' == 'M') |
| 18:37:47 | <lambdabot> | (True,False) |
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| 18:41:15 | <ski> | > map isUpper "µ㎲𝜇" |
| 18:41:17 | <lambdabot> | [False,False,False] |
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| 18:43:02 | <snyp> | @unmtl StateT s (Maybe a) |
| 18:43:02 | <lambdabot> | err: `StateT s (Maybe a)' is not applied to enough arguments, giving `/\A. s -> Maybe a (A, s)' |
| 18:43:58 | <ski> | drop the brackets |
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| 18:48:28 | <sm[m]> | @freenode_PerryThePlatypus:matrix.org: exercism, project Euler, code.world |
| 18:48:28 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
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| 18:52:09 | ski | looks at sm[m] |
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| 18:55:03 | tomsmeding | carefully notes that the intended recipient of that message had already left the chat |
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| 19:13:42 | <sm[m]> | urggggh did it again. Apologies. Well maybe someone else cares |
| 19:15:01 | <int-e> | > (2^^(-1074), (2^^(-537))^2) -- meh. |
| 19:15:04 | <lambdabot> | (0.0,5.0e-324) |
| 19:16:03 | <geekosaur> | have some floating point |
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| 19:16:39 | <int-e> | I guess a ^^ b does 1/(a^(-b)) for negative b, not (1/a)^(-b) |
| 19:17:07 | <int-e> | > (1/2^1074, (1/2)^1074) |
| 19:17:10 | <lambdabot> | (0.0,5.0e-324) |
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| 19:23:47 | <int-e> | (but neither implementation is strictly better than the other, so best to accept the behavior as it is) |
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| 19:25:57 | hackage | hakyll-alectryon 0.1.1.0 - Hakyll extension for rendering Coq code using Alectryon https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hakyll-alectryon-0.1.1.0 (lyxia) |
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| 19:26:44 | <proofofme> | Hello. How do I print this data type to the console? Maybe [String] |
| 19:27:02 | <phadej> | |
| 19:27:49 | <proofofme> | No instance for (Show (IO (Maybe [String]))) |
| 19:27:49 | <proofofme> | arising from a use of ‘print’ |
| 19:28:20 | <phadej> | do { x <- thatIOAction; print x } |
| 19:29:10 | <proofofme> | Yes!!! Thank you phadej |
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| 19:36:04 | <leungbk> | Why does valgrind report an 80-byte leak for a hello-world.hs file with `main = print "hello"` compiled with `ghc hello.hs`? Are there other compilation flags I need to give ghc? |
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| 19:37:54 | <ski> | proofofme : also `print =<< thatIOAction' |
| 19:38:40 | <tomsmeding> | (not sure if it's good to give beginners =<< instead of the standard >>=) |
| 19:38:42 | <monochrom> | valgrind is the wrong tool for GHC-generated executables. |
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| 19:39:25 | <proofofme> | ski, that worked as well! How should I use the standard binding operator instead, tomsmeding? |
| 19:39:36 | <tomsmeding> | proofofme: thatIOAction >>= print |
| 19:39:37 | <tomsmeding> | :p |
| 19:39:42 | <tomsmeding> | it's the same thing, but with the arguments flipped |
| 19:39:43 | <ski> | you can say .. what tomsmeding said, as well |
| 19:39:45 | <ski> | yes |
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| 19:39:59 | <ski> | sometimes the ordering for `=<<' reads more nicely |
| 19:40:00 | <proofofme> | ah! I see |
| 19:40:04 | <ski> | (also `<=<') |
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| 19:40:11 | <proofofme> | is <=< different? |
| 19:40:15 | <ski> | yes |
| 19:40:18 | <tomsmeding> | and >=> and all the plethora of operators that exist |
| 19:40:34 | <ski> | `<=<' composes two "monadic functions" |
| 19:40:35 | <tomsmeding> | it's not productive to get lost in the swamp of operators at first I think :) |
| 19:40:40 | <tomsmeding> | and I think monochrom will agree |
| 19:41:14 | <tomsmeding> | since >>= is the core operator from the Monad class; =<< is (trivially) defined in terms of >>= |
| 19:41:28 | <ski> | proofofme : but when you're starting, i think it's good to focus on `do'-notation and `return'/`pure', and then learn how the former maps to `>>=' and `>>' (or perhaps learn about them, before `do') |
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| 19:42:07 | <tomsmeding> | I guess depending on your prior programming experience, or general exposure to mathematics :p |
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| 19:42:29 | <proofofme> | I've been studying category theory (I'm like 70% of the way through the standard curriculum) and reading some articles. I'm building a very small scraper script to get more familiar |
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| 19:43:07 | <tomsmeding> | I say understand >>= first, then understand how do-notation is expressed in terms of it :p |
| 19:43:19 | <monochrom> | If you're from category theory, then you already know join, and you just need "m >>= k = join (fmap f m)" |
| 19:43:49 | <monochrom> | well, you know join under a Greek name. But it's: |
| 19:43:53 | <monochrom> | @type join |
| 19:43:55 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => m (m a) -> m a |
| 19:44:13 | <proofofme> | hmmm |
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| 19:45:36 | <monochrom> | You probably also already know Kleisli arrows. In that case, that's >=>. |
| 19:46:13 | <monochrom> | or rather, >=> is the arrow composition for Kleisli arrows. |
| 19:46:14 | <sbp> | lyxia: thanks |
| 19:46:16 | ← | sbp parts (~sbp@2001:19f0:6800:1102:5400:ff:fe11:39a1) ("WeeChat 2.8") |
| 19:46:30 | <proofofme> | Interesting |
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| 19:50:28 | ski | idly wonders what CT concepts proofofme's covered |
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| 19:50:55 | <proofofme> | I lightly understand what you said above and made a list to refamiliarize myself |
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| 19:52:02 | <proofofme> | I've watched up to Chapter 7 in Bartosz Milewski's Category Theory playlist |
| 19:52:35 | <proofofme> | So "a monad is simply a monoid in the category of endofunctors" makes full sense to me now :) |
| 19:53:34 | <proofofme> | I've also been learning abstract algebra and some number theory. I am no expert by any means though. |
| 19:54:11 | <monochrom> | err typo. m >>= k = join (fmap k m) |
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| 20:01:57 | hackage | neuron 1.0.0.0 - Future-proof system for plain-text notes. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/neuron-1.0.0.0 (sridca) |
| 20:03:27 | hackage | lorentz 0.6.2 - EDSL for the Michelson Language https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lorentz-0.6.2 (gromak) |
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| 21:57:07 | <dolio> | (=<<) is good because it shows how homomorphisms of free algebras `m a -> m b` arise from maps `a -> m b`. |
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| 22:01:21 | <dolio> | Of course, that only depends on `m a` being a free algebra. If you situate it in the category of all algebras, it's `(a -> r) -> m a -> r`, presuming `r` is an algebra. |
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| 22:04:36 | <dminuoso> | proofofme: Now to the next step. An applicative is simply a monoid in the category of endofunctors as well! |
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| 22:05:17 | <dminuoso> | But that category is equipped with a different tensor. In case of Monad it's endofunctor composition, and in case of Applicative it's Day convolution. :) |
| 22:05:41 | monochrom | cries |
| 22:05:46 | <dolio> | In that case it doesn't need to be an endofunctor, though. |
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| 22:07:34 | <proofofme> | interesting! I am referencing all this stuff right now |
| 22:08:22 | <monochrom> | I now agree with St. Augustine that you math nerds are pure evil. :) |
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| 22:09:10 | <hpc> | we should make like pythagoras and throw them overboard |
| 22:09:18 | <monochrom> | Programmers work very hard to code up things, then a math nerd comes along to point out that "it's just a special case of this conceptually simple thing" |
| 22:09:19 | <dminuoso> | proofofme: As a fun excercise, try to think of other tensors and see whether you discover more such monoids. |
| 22:09:46 | <dminuoso> | There's at least three more tensors that yield interesting results. |
| 22:10:22 | <monochrom> | One time I was TAing in a computer graphics course. In terms of coding up ray tracing for example, intersection test for a ray with a sphere is very different from intersection test for a ray with a cube. |
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| 22:10:56 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: I managed a testcase btw: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/18822 |
| 22:11:16 | <monochrom> | Then a math prof friend visited the graphics prof, we brought up that, and the math prof friend pointed out "but a cube is just a sphere under a different norm". |
| 22:11:54 | <dolio> | Maybe programmers should have looked at what math people were doing decades before, so they wouldn't have to reinvent it. |
| 22:12:14 | <dminuoso> | dolio: Heh. Or even at what programmers were doing decades before! |
| 22:12:25 | <dminuoso> | Im looking at you, mongodb developers. |
| 22:12:35 | <dolio> | Yeah, that too. |
| 22:13:23 | <monochrom> | I am sympathetic to them, though in disagreement, because as a consequence of the victors writing history, the nosql people never knew that historically databases started out as nosql. |
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| 22:14:12 | <dminuoso> | There's an influx of new programmers, completely oblivious about POSIX, relational algebra, interesting languages... |
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| 22:14:35 | <monochrom> | If you tell them the old name "network database" they will totally misunderstand you because they don't know that "network" simply meant pointers back then. |
| 22:14:58 | <monochrom> | (They will think you mean, like, cloud.) |
| 22:14:59 | <dminuoso> | monochrom: If I stare at some of the early steps of MongoDB they are not just repeating it, but repeating it poorly. MongoDB will crash if you use more than 2GiB in your database on a 32 bit architecture. |
| 22:15:00 | <dolio> | If you squint at the 'algebra' thing above, you see that Lawvere invented CPS for algebra 12 years before Steele and Sussman. :) |
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| 22:15:11 | <dminuoso> | I mean, for a database that's saying quite a lot. |
| 22:15:20 | <dminuoso> | Or the complete lack of any properties of ACID early on |
| 22:15:46 | <dminuoso> | It seemed to have been a "Lets see how hard a database can be, if we dont do any reading and just start writing" |
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| 22:18:48 | <maralorn> | dolio: I say this as a mathematician. Normally people (like physicists, programmers) invent something and then after a few decads mathematicians are like "well what you did is btw. this really simple concept, that we invented motivated by what you did" |
| 22:19:49 | <monochrom> | And while we're at it... I wish I could write "C because (because A, so B)" up there for that sentence that I ended up wording "C because as a consequence of A, B". |
| 22:20:34 | <monochrom> | So the logical structure of what I was saying is: (A therefore B) therefore C. Marvel at the CPS structure! >:) |
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| 22:21:38 | <dolio> | maralorn: If I were talking to mathematicians I'd be playing the opposite side. :) |
| 22:21:58 | <maralorn> | ^^ |
| 22:22:27 | <dolio> | They just stole our Martin-löf type theory. |
| 22:22:39 | <maralorn> | It's not always like that. But in general I think both sides deserve a lot of credit. And in a world where people tend to idolize abstractness, rigor and brute intelligence. I try to nudge the world view into the direction of valuing intuition, motivation and experience. |
| 22:22:40 | <monochrom> | heh |
| 22:24:22 | <monochrom> | That is a minority world from what I saw. |
| 22:24:51 | <monochrom> | The majority world idolize intuition, experience, and after-the-fact rationalization instead. |
| 22:25:00 | <monochrom> | Just look at politics. |
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| 22:26:12 | <dolio> | I mean, it wasn't long ago that I was talking in here about how mathematicians are all wrong when they tell physicists they 'aren't allowed to do' various stuff with derivatives because it doesn't work in classical analysis or whatever. |
| 22:26:46 | <dolio> | Because they went off and studied something different than what physicists are actually doing, but decided the math was the real thing. |
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| 22:30:28 | <proofofme> | So let's say that I have a field of type `Maybe [String]` and want to compare it to elements from input of type [String], and return the index of the first match, if it exists. Would I use mapM_ to accomplish this? |
| 22:32:21 | <monochrom> | No. More like fmap. |
| 22:32:57 | <monochrom> | What does "compare" mean to compare Nothing against ["hello", "hi"] ? |
| 22:34:33 | <proofofme> | Just ["hello", "hi"], yeah? |
| 22:34:38 | <proofofme> | is that what you mean? |
| 22:34:49 | <dminuoso> | So, just out of curiosity proofofme |
| 22:34:54 | <monochrom> | No. You wrote "compare Maybe [String] to [String]". |
| 22:35:05 | <dminuoso> | You dabble in non-trivial category theory but seem to be stuck in the beginning steps of Haskell. |
| 22:35:11 | <dminuoso> | What's your motivation behind learning CT? |
| 22:35:17 | <monochrom> | So I compare Nothing :: Maybe [String] to ["hello", "hi"] :: [String] |
| 22:35:31 | <maralorn> | I read up on the Monads are Monoids in the category of Endofunctors thing. A few years ago I was like "A now I get it.". Now I feel that's like saying "a bycicle is just two wheels with pedals." It's not really wrong but it's a really bad definition and I can think of contraptions that fit the name, that don‘t match at all. |
| 22:36:29 | <proofofme> | My main motivation is personal fulfillment in learning this stuff, but also applying it professionally to write better code, whether it's Haskell or whatever else I'm using. |
| 22:37:10 | <proofofme> | I'm really new at non-trivial Haskell |
| 22:37:19 | <proofofme> | or less-trivial Haskell, I should say |
| 22:37:31 | <dminuoso> | proofofme: My personal recommendation, stay clear of Category Theory then. |
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| 22:37:45 | <proofofme> | why's that? |
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| 22:37:50 | <koz_> | maralorn: This. I especially feel that a lot of people (especially learners) fixate too much on what a monad _is_, and less on 'why we care in the first place'. |
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| 22:38:07 | <dminuoso> | Unless you do this out of personal enjoyment for CT itself, CT has very little bang for bucks in terms of programming. |
| 22:38:28 | <proofofme> | I want to learn CT, abstract algebra, and number theory for my own sake |
| 22:38:28 | <maralorn> | koz_: That also. |
| 22:38:41 | <dminuoso> | While some of the really advanced folks can use it in some particular situations, I dont think one can appreciate even half the stuff unless you happen to be well versed in multiple fields of maths already |
| 22:39:02 | <dminuoso> | proofofme: In that case, dont mind me! |
| 22:39:11 | <dminuoso> | Just wanted to make sure you didn't fall into the trap I (and many others) did. :) |
| 22:39:28 | <maralorn> | koz_: But unless someone can enlighten me in the error of my ways. It now feels like that is not even something a mathematician would say. |
| 22:39:42 | <dminuoso> | Because I learned category theory for the sake of having an easier entry into Haskell. Turned out, I understood the joke `a monad is just..`, went to Haskell, and didn't even understand how to use IO at all. |
| 22:39:45 | <dminuoso> | (True story) |
| 22:39:58 | <dolio> | What isn't? |
| 22:40:09 | <proofofme> | haha I feel that |
| 22:40:39 | <maralorn> | dolio: "Monads are Monoids in the category of Endofunctors" |
| 22:41:26 | <dolio> | maralorn: It's a one-off sentence in Categories for the Working Mathematician, I think. |
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| 22:41:46 | <maralorn> | Hm |
| 22:41:53 | <dolio> | And for some reason gets quoted all over. |
| 22:42:17 | <maralorn> | But what does "A Monoid in the category C" even mean? |
| 22:42:37 | <dolio> | I think it's quoted somewhere by Wadler, maybe, and that's why it's popular amongst programmers. |
| 22:42:57 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: A monoid (or monoid object) (M, μ, η) in a monoidal category (C, ⊗, I) is an object M together with two morphisms |
| 22:43:09 | <dminuoso> | (I ruthlessly copy pasted it, but I would have said the same thing myself |
| 22:43:28 | <dminuoso> | (well followed by blahblablah( |
| 22:43:31 | <maralorn> | Ah, okay. Fair enough. |
| 22:43:40 | <dolio> | In MacLaine I think it comes at the end of explaining how it works. |
| 22:44:23 | <dolio> | And for Wadler it's a joke that doesn't actually explain anything. |
| 22:44:51 | <monochrom> | The real numbers are just the complete Archimedian ordered field. >:) |
| 22:44:52 | <maralorn> | Then the Wikipedia article is just exceptionally bad at making that point. It even has a [Citation needed] next to the claim … |
| 22:45:53 | <maralorn> | monochrom: Well that is how we defined them in my first semester, so I am okay with that. |
| 22:45:55 | <dminuoso> | maralorn, dolio: According to stackoverflow, the particular joking phrasing is actually from: http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html |
| 22:46:07 | <dminuoso> | (With a fictional attribution to Wadler) |
| 22:46:45 | <dolio> | Oh, okay. |
| 22:46:45 | <dminuoso> | And I think that joke is what got it popular, but the joke is sometimes lost |
| 22:46:56 | <monochrom> | Any sufficiently insider joke is indistinguishable from sufficiently advanced knowledge. |
| 22:47:04 | <dminuoso> | monochrom: Haha true. |
| 22:48:23 | <maralorn> | That page doesn‘t load for me. :-( |
| 22:49:22 | <monochrom> | Learning monads is not easy. After successfully learning something challenging, people make jokes for relief. I'm sure this happens in every profession. I'm sure similar nerdy jokes are among accountants, lawyers, medical doctors, everything. |
| 22:50:17 | <dolio> | It seems like the irony of this discussion is that it's not really mathematicians saying it. It's programmers. |
| 22:50:24 | <monochrom> | But when such insider jokes leak out, they sound like words of deep wisdom to beginners, and beginners misbelieve that they must understand them rather than just go "haha" and take it easy. |
| 22:50:29 | <maralorn> | Yeah, there is an evolution of jokes about different math jokes which funnieness depends on your own skilllevel. |
| 22:50:43 | <maralorn> | First you don‘t even get it's a math joke and it's not funny. |
| 22:51:04 | <dminuoso> | I mean to be fair, the core essence of "a monad is just..." is very valuable and ever present in my head. |
| 22:51:14 | <dminuoso> | But it's not the category theory definition that I think about |
| 22:51:21 | <maralorn> | Later you know enough math, to understand it's a joke, but you don‘t know why, so you laugh with the others. |
| 22:51:36 | <dminuoso> | I rather have a visual/mental model of: https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/d5ab4ba5d8a5142dde9f4d4c736e3ecb |
| 22:51:55 | <maralorn> | Then you know barely enough math to understand the joke and you find it hilarious. |
| 22:52:14 | <dminuoso> | Just to address your comment about "this is not even something a mathematician would say" |
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| 22:53:18 | <maralorn> | And some years later the knowledge required seems so basic, that you maybe laugh a little. |
| 22:54:10 | <monochrom> | So, like that one on smbc? |
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| 22:54:19 | <maralorn> | dminuoso: Well I was wrong about that. Apparently that sentence has a very precise meaning if you know monoidal categories and a generelized definition of monoid. |
| 22:54:39 | <monochrom> | "Did you know that every sum of two primes is greater than 2" |
| 22:54:43 | <dolio> | It's hard to believe I hadn't heard that quip before 2009, though. |
| 22:54:55 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: I like Saunders Mac Lanes definition more, but I'd rephrase it into: |
| 22:55:17 | <dminuoso> | A monad is a monoid in a monoidal category equipped with endofunctor composition as its tensor. |
| 22:55:26 | <dminuoso> | Err |
| 22:55:38 | <dminuoso> | A monad is a monoid in the monoidal category of endofunctors equipped with endofunctor composition as its tensor. |
| 22:55:54 | <dolio> | I'm going to guess it was only written down somewhere permanent in 2009. |
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| 22:56:04 | <dminuoso> | But really, this is neither the conclusion of some large chunk of text, nor is it a particularly funny joke |
| 22:56:12 | <dminuoso> | So it's pretty valueless |
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| 22:56:54 | <heebo> | if im using ghcup , hie , haskell language server: whats the best build tool to use , stack or cabal? |
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| 22:57:00 | <dminuoso> | As programmers, I think the kleisli category route to think of programmers is a bit more natural to think of. |
| 22:57:05 | <hpc> | the slightly funnier version goes something like "a monad is a monad in the 2-category of categories" |
| 22:57:07 | <monochrom> | cabal |
| 22:57:35 | <maralorn> | dminuoso: Yeah, that gist makes it very clear. I also think for definition I prefer join over bind. |
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| 22:58:28 | <dminuoso> | I think bind is better to think of. |
| 22:58:45 | <dminuoso> | Then you can think of (<=<) as the principle operation of monads |
| 22:58:52 | <dminuoso> | You get some pretty elegant laws with that |
| 22:59:09 | <monochrom> | I like them both. Both have helped me greatly. |
| 22:59:14 | <dminuoso> | Assoc: f <=< (g <=< h) = (f <=< g) <=< h |
| 22:59:25 | <dminuoso> | Identity: f <=< return = return <=< f = f |
| 22:59:34 | <maralorn> | heebo: Note a) hie is deprecated in favor of haskell-language-server and b) the choice of your build tool is largely orthogonal to the rest of the setup. But c) yeah, I'd also say, cabal. |
| 22:59:57 | <dminuoso> | (All these definitions are of course equivalent) |
| 23:00:16 | <heebo> | thanks, just getting back into things. ill remove my hie setup in favour of hie |
| 23:00:16 | <monochrom> | Oh, my consideration is simply "if you use stack, you would not be with ghcup in the first place" |
| 23:00:29 | <heebo> | er haskell -language server i mean |
| 23:00:41 | <maralorn> | Well that is the monoid Wikipedia claims makes a monad a monoid … |
| 23:01:05 | → | conal_ joins (~conal@66.115.157.46) |
| 23:01:09 | <heebo> | monochrom: i only used ghcup because its the easiest way to install hls |
| 23:01:09 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: At the very core, monads and monoids are deeply related :) |
| 23:01:18 | <dminuoso> | nclatlab has a slightly different take again |
| 23:01:19 | <monochrom> | Ah |
| 23:01:44 | <dminuoso> | As a handwaving idea: A monad is a structure that is a lot like a monoid, but that lives in a bicategory rather than a monoidal category. In other words, the concept of a monad is a vertical categorification of that of a monoid. |
| 23:02:15 | <dminuoso> | Which connects to hpc's joke earlier |
| 23:02:18 | <heebo> | but i'll get back into cabal i always felt a little uncomfortable with the fact that stack sits on top of cabal and you end up having to maintain cabal files even with a stack setup |
| 23:02:39 | ← | heebo parts (~user@cpc97956-croy24-2-0-cust20.19-2.cable.virginm.net) ("ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.2)") |
| 23:02:41 | <phadej> | cabal-install /= Cabal |
| 23:02:47 | × | conal quits (~conal@64.71.133.70) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 23:02:48 | <phadej> | there is no "cabal" (lowercase ;) |
| 23:03:07 | <monochrom> | We mean cabal-install. |
| 23:03:24 | <phadej> | stack doesn't sit on top of cabal-install |
| 23:03:28 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: My largest revelation was to see how Applicative and Monad were related. How Monad has a very deep sense of "sequencing" in all its definitions (in a very handwaving sense), while Applicative has a sort of "diamond" branching notion to it. |
| 23:03:33 | <maralorn> | phadej: So are they Cabal-files or cabal-install-files?^^ |
| 23:03:40 | <phadej> | maralorn: Cabal-files |
| 23:03:55 | <dminuoso> | It made me realize how the Applicative superclass constraint of Monad feels somewhat wrong, because it suggests a relationship that feels more accidental |
| 23:03:58 | <monochrom> | The confusion comes from the executable name "cabal". |
| 23:04:19 | <phadej> | it would be very painful if we had two (or more!) non-interoptible package specification formats |
| 23:05:06 | <dolio> | dminuoso: But do you know that arrows are also related? |
| 23:05:17 | <dminuoso> | dolio: What do you mean? |
| 23:05:46 | <maralorn> | dminuoso: I have seen one or two talks about how you can not introspect a Monad, because in a bind anything can happen. |
| 23:05:48 | <phadej> | dminuoso: it is "accidental", but also always true in the *specific category* of Haskell |
| 23:05:51 | <phadej> | types |
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| 23:06:27 | <dolio> | dminuoso: Arrows are monoids with respect to profunctor composition (plus an extra thing). |
| 23:06:46 | <dminuoso> | dolio: Arrow is the one abstraction I've never really understood. :) |
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| 23:06:57 | <dolio> | https://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/cheunen/publications/2006/arrows/arrows.pdf |
| 23:06:58 | <maralorn> | So for me Functor and Aplicative feel kinda close, whereas Monads are really heavy weight. |
| 23:07:07 | <phadej> | Arrows are very ad-hoc abstraction |
| 23:07:33 | <phadej> | the `arr` doesn't fit. |
| 23:07:37 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: The relationship Im getting at, is that each Monad induces a trivial Applicative instance, rather than "Applicative being a sort of precursor to Monad" |
| 23:08:44 | <dminuoso> | dolio: Cheers! A very brief skim suggests this should be readable with my expertise. Ill crunch that on the weekend |
| 23:09:33 | <maralorn> | dminuoso: I am not sure I understand. Each Monoid induces a trivial Semigroup instance sounds to me nearly equivalent to "Semigroup being a sort of precursor to Monoid" |
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| 23:09:58 | <phadej> | maralorn: not true. |
| 23:10:02 | <dolio> | It won't make arrows any more relevant, but it's an amusing fact. |
| 23:10:08 | <phadej> | Monoid is "Semigroup + unit" |
| 23:10:19 | <phadej> | but (<*>) and (>>=) are very different |
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| 23:10:46 | <phadej> | or liftA2 (,) and join -- if you look for more "categorical" members |
| 23:10:49 | <maralorn> | Ah, okay. |
| 23:11:07 | <monochrom> | What is "precursor"? Does it carry a historical view, or is it simply logical subsumption? |
| 23:11:34 | <monochrom> | or something a bit different from both? |
| 23:11:54 | <maralorn> | You are saying we could give a different applicative instance for a Monad, but having another semigroup for a monoid would just violate the definition. |
| 23:12:04 | <dminuoso> | monochrom: Just a handwaving term |
| 23:12:11 | <phadej> | maralorn: in Haskell no |
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| 23:13:23 | <maralorn> | phadej: Because of the choosen hierarchy and the laws to combine them? |
| 23:13:24 | <dolio> | But there are other semigroup structures on various monoids. They're just not the one used in the monoid. |
| 23:13:27 | <phadej> | but I think that in some category there could be Applicative-like things and Monad-like things for some functor, which aren't compatible |
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| 23:14:00 | <phadej> | dolio: monoid is (carrier set, <>, mempty) |
| 23:14:14 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: What Im about to say requires some long thinking and building up intuition to make real sense, so take this with a grain of salt and not too literally. |
| 23:14:14 | <dolio> | I know what a monoid is. |
| 23:15:24 | <phadej> | there are different applicative strucures for `f` in Haskell too, ZipList and ordinary [] instance |
| 23:15:44 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: Monad is somehow about `sequencing` (and I mean this more abstract than just effects). Applicative otoh is rather a diamond that branches in parallel and joins again. |
| 23:15:45 | <phadej> | but having them different won't be very good idea |
| 23:16:15 | <phadej> | i.e. if Applicative weren't superclass of Monad, and Applicative [] were ZipList like |
| 23:16:26 | <maralorn> | I have to say in the last few weeks I kinda got the impression, that having a monoid class was a mistake. I have observed multiple occasions where people assumed the wrong of multiple possible monoid instances for some type and got subtle bugs because of that. |
| 23:16:44 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: The fact that Applicative usually carries "sequencing semantics" arises from the fact that the superclass constraint demands the Applicative instance and Monad instance be coherent. So as long as we have a Monad instance, the Applicative diamond is a sort of "go left side, and *then* to right side, and *then* join together" |
| 23:17:09 | <dminuoso> | These coherence rules exist for good reasons, but they do lead to Applicative looking too much like Monad most of the time. |
| 23:17:18 | <dolio> | No, Applicative is about sequencing, because it's not commutative. |
| 23:19:40 | <dminuoso> | dolio: Can you elaborate? |
| 23:19:50 | <phadej> | it can be commutative though :) |
| 23:20:19 | <maralorn> | e.g. (<>) :: (a -> a) -> (a -> a) |
| 23:20:39 | <phadej> | f <*> x can be (&) <$> x <*> f |
| 23:21:33 | <dolio> | Monads can be commutative. |
| 23:21:59 | <phadej> | you cannot really do `k` "first" in `m >>= k` |
| 23:22:05 | <phadej> | there is dependency |
| 23:22:14 | <phadej> | and I think that's what is dminuoso is after |
| 23:22:27 | <phadej> | being too pedantic doens't help |
| 23:22:59 | <dminuoso> | As a particular example, Haxl is a real-world example of how Applicatives let you explore parallel code. |
| 23:24:12 | <dolio> | It is an over-generalization to say that Applicative is "about" the use case of haxl. |
| 23:24:31 | <phadej> | I don't think it's too far fetched |
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| 23:24:55 | <phadej> | most intersting Applicative usages are exploiting the interspectability of Applicative computations |
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| 23:25:11 | <phadej> | haxl is very aggressive, so in a sense a good example |
| 23:25:27 | <phadej> | optparse-applicative is another one, less controversial maybe |
| 23:26:07 | <dminuoso> | Overall, Applicative seems very underused. Mostly, we just use the convenient interface of `ap` but with Monad semantics. |
| 23:26:34 | <dminuoso> | At least for non-library writers. |
| 23:27:22 | <phadej> | there aren't many non-Monad Applicatives |
| 23:27:28 | <dminuoso> | It's pretty much that coherence law I referenced earlier that mostly puts Applicative into the shadows |
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| 23:27:36 | <maralorn> | There should be a significant difference between applicative parsers and monodal parsers, right? |
| 23:27:57 | <maralorn> | An applicative parser might be much better optimizable? |
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| 23:28:06 | <phadej> | maralorn: Applicative parsers is regex-applicative |
| 23:28:10 | <dolio> | Anyhow, the commutative point is that Applicative allows for things where `f <*> x` is not the same as `x <**> f` (assuming I got that right). This means that there is a well-defined sequence that the operations have been combined in, even if the semantics decide that is irrelevant. |
| 23:28:13 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: Better yet, parsers based on selective functors! |
| 23:28:27 | <dminuoso> | (selective functors are a breed between monadic and applicative) |
| 23:28:43 | <dminuoso> | With selective parsers, you get static analyzability but dynamic choices of subsequent effects. :) |
| 23:29:02 | <phadej> | with observable equality (to recognise recursion) you get CFG (check Earley) |
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| 23:30:42 | <dminuoso> | If I can convince my employer to spend a few weeks, I'd love to make a optparse-selective. |
| 23:32:31 | <dminuoso> | dolio: I see, well, I'd rather consider that a case of "associativity" than "sequencing" in some abtract sense. |
| 23:32:44 | <dolio> | I'm not even sure the characterization makes sense with Haxl, because the 'join' part is monad, right? |
| 23:33:01 | <phadej> | dminuoso: what would you need selective power for there? |
| 23:33:12 | <dolio> | Sequences are the primordial associative structure. |
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| 23:34:27 | <dolio> | Anyhow, I could maybe agree that Applicative is about sequences of things, and Monad is about nested things, and what Haxl does is take advantage that you can parallelize sequences of things. |
| 23:34:43 | <dminuoso> | phadej: Oh just parsing differently depending on previous flags. Nothing too fancy really |
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| 23:35:14 | <dminuoso> | It was mostly just "would be nice to have this" cases. |
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| 23:37:07 | <dminuoso> | dolio: At the end this has become a discussion about what particular intutions/mind models we have adapted. My mind model is based on thinking of `Day` and (:.:), or (<*>) and (>>=). One comes with a sequencing of effects, data dependencies, the other does not. |
| 23:37:21 | <maralorn> | Is there an applicative or selective parsing library? |
| 23:37:36 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: optparse-applicative is an applicative option parsing library |
| 23:37:44 | <dminuoso> | https://github.com/J-mie6/ParsleyHaskell |
| 23:38:14 | <dminuoso> | Is an example of a selective parser combinator library that analyzes and optimizes your parser in TH. |
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| 23:39:08 | <maralorn> | I think you can‘t have a lift instance for monadic parsers, is that right? |
| 23:40:32 | <maralorn> | Wait that repo has no README and is not on hackage? :-( |
| 23:40:39 | <dminuoso> | dolio: So what you mentioned about non-commutative applicatives, I realized my mistake. So I'd say you still have conceptual parallel branching, but the combination of results has some sequencing yes. |
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| 23:40:55 | <dminuoso> | But based on that, I would not go as far as saying that "sequencing is the defining characteristic of applicative" |
| 23:41:30 | <dminuoso> | Consider: |
| 23:41:54 | <dolio> | The whole difference between `f <*> x` and `x <**> f` in a non-commutative Applicative is that it won't in general be combining the same 'results'. |
| 23:41:55 | <dminuoso> | We could think of Applicative as being desribed by `f a -> f b -> f (a, b)` as its signature method |
| 23:42:12 | <dminuoso> | So yeah, there's a clear ordering in the tuple, but the core essence lies in what happens with the `f` |
| 23:42:18 | <ghoulguy> | If we wanted to speculate on the defining characteristic we could start by staring at the free structure: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/free-5.1.4/docs/Control-Applicative-Free.html#t:Ap |
| 23:42:56 | <dminuoso> | So `f a -> f b -> f (a, b)` suggests potential branching as opposed to linear data dependencies. static effects as opposed to dynamic effects. |
| 23:43:02 | <ghoulguy> | it's a sequence of primitives |
| 23:43:10 | <ghoulguy> | the branching doesn't matter because of the associative-like law |
| 23:43:37 | <ghoulguy> | I'm late to to the party so you might already be past that |
| 23:44:32 | <ghoulguy> | it's an ordered sequence of some primitives combined with a pure function to make all the type-indexes match up |
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| 23:45:24 | <dminuoso> | sure, that's just paraphrasing what dolio just said though with more elaborate terms. :) |
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| 23:45:33 | <ghoulguy> | oh, maybe that means dolio is right! |
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| 23:46:09 | <dminuoso> | Well, you are still free to interpret these in parallel |
| 23:46:24 | <dminuoso> | Or you could interpret the right first, then the left.. |
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| 23:46:39 | <dminuoso> | There's nothing about it that forces you into an effect order |
| 23:46:56 | <dminuoso> | Yes, at the end you have a particular ordering in which you combine the results again |
| 23:47:12 | <dminuoso> | Ap could have also been defined as |
| 23:47:16 | <dolio> | If Applicatives are 'about' parallelism, why are there so many examples where you can't do them in parallel, because the order matters? |
| 23:47:25 | <dminuoso> | Ap :: f a -> Ap f b -> Ap f (a, b) |
| 23:47:35 | <ghoulguy> | Some applicatives allow you to work in parallel, but that's not inherent to applicatives |
| 23:47:47 | <dminuoso> | dolio: Because most of the time you have a Monad instance, and then the coherence laws matter. |
| 23:47:50 | <dolio> | Shouldn't those be illegal? |
| 23:48:01 | <dminuoso> | And it's the coherence laws that force the Applicative to have the Monad semantics. |
| 23:48:14 | <dminuoso> | And the monad itself is inherently sequenced because of that data dependency in (>>=) |
| 23:48:42 | <dminuoso> | dolio: That's a bit more extreme than what I suggested, but yeah, that's the crux of it! |
| 23:48:57 | <dminuoso> | They are just trivial instances induced by the monad |
| 23:48:59 | <dolio> | What's the proof that there area no non-monad Applicatives where ordering matters? |
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| 23:49:45 | <dminuoso> | Look, I think you're taking this a bit too exact. |
| 23:50:02 | <dminuoso> | % :t (<*>) |
| 23:50:03 | <yahb> | dminuoso: Applicative f => f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b |
| 23:50:31 | <dminuoso> | This f has no sequencing built into its type |
| 23:50:46 | <dminuoso> | And if we stare at Day we see this deeper again |
| 23:50:49 | <c_wraith> | There are monads where the order doesn't matter outside of the data dependency. Maybe, for instance. |
| 23:50:51 | <dolio> | I think I used one recently, actually. It was basically state composed with writer. |
| 23:50:51 | <dminuoso> | % data Day f g a where Day :: f x -> g y -> (x -> y -> a) -> Day f g a |
| 23:50:52 | <yahb> | dminuoso: |
| 23:50:58 | <ghoulguy> | Monad doesn't even enforce an "effect order" which is how we get the reverse state examples |
| 23:51:05 | <dminuoso> | ghoulguy: Of course they do! |
| 23:51:07 | <dminuoso> | % :t (>>=) |
| 23:51:07 | <yahb> | dminuoso: Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b |
| 23:51:13 | <dminuoso> | It's buried right into the type here. |
| 23:51:28 | <dolio> | Also the one people use that collects multiple error messages. |
| 23:51:29 | <dminuoso> | You cant run `m b` without having an `a` to begin with |
| 23:51:29 | <c_wraith> | Reader and Identity for the trivial examples |
| 23:51:45 | <c_wraith> | dminuoso: Proxy? |
| 23:51:54 | <ghoulguy> | dminuoso: who said I had to "run" m a to get an a? |
| 23:52:07 | <ghoulguy> | It's my m |
| 23:52:33 | <dolio> | There were people a while back talking about a sub-monad of IO that could have its operations re-ordered, too. |
| 23:52:49 | <dolio> | ACIO or something. |
| 23:53:05 | <c_wraith> | > undefined >>= undefined :: Proxy () |
| 23:53:08 | <lambdabot> | Proxy |
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| 23:53:35 | <ghoulguy> | dminuoso: I think you're making too much out of the data dependency suggested by the type of (>>=) and the lack of that same obvious data dependency in (<*>) |
| 23:53:37 | <c_wraith> | no values of a, b, Proxy a, or Proxy b |
| 23:53:47 | <c_wraith> | (as inputs, anyway) |
| 23:53:57 | <dminuoso> | ghoulguy: Let's take another approach then. |
| 23:54:10 | <dminuoso> | Can we agree that the signature method of Monad is `m :.: m ~> m` ? |
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| 23:54:31 | <dminuoso> | And equivalently the signature method of Applicative is: m `Day` m ~> m ? |
| 23:54:50 | <dminuoso> | (Perhaps I shouldnt have used backticks in the first example, that seems mildly confusing) |
| 23:55:21 | <maralorn> | :t Day |
| 23:55:23 | <lambdabot> | error: Data constructor not in scope: Day |
| 23:55:28 | <dminuoso> | % data Day f g a where Day :: f x -> g y -> (x -> y -> a) -> Day f g a |
| 23:55:28 | <yahb> | dminuoso: |
| 23:55:33 | <maralorn> | % :t Day |
| 23:55:34 | <yahb> | maralorn: f x -> g y -> (x -> y -> a) -> Day f g a |
| 23:56:07 | <maralorn> | Why is it called Day? |
| 23:56:28 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: It's named after Brian Day who introduced the day convolution. |
| 23:56:45 | <maralorn> | huh |
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| 23:57:58 | <dminuoso> | ghoulguy: The abstract, handwaving, sequencing (of effects) semantics are buried into (:.:). If we think of functors as effects in Haskell, the (associative) composition of two functors is almost literally the sequencing of two effects. |
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| 23:59:39 | <dolio> | You know, GHC does not guarantee that IORef reads/writes appear to happen in a certain order, or even a possible interleaving of orders. |
| 23:59:44 | <dolio> | I made a model of it in Agda. |
All times are in UTC on 2020-10-08.