Logs on 2020-10-11 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 00:19:26 | <c_wraith> | huh. I'm looking at some core because I wanted to verify that ghc would evaluate a (,,) constructor strictly even though it's not actually forced, because it's used immediately in a recursive call that pattern-matches on it... |
| 00:19:41 | <c_wraith> | Turns out GHC just plain removed the tuple entirely. |
| 00:20:08 | <c_wraith> | It just unpacked it into three arguments instead of one. |
| 00:20:53 | <dolio> | Yeah, it does that sort of thing. |
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| 01:37:58 | hackage | flat-mcmc 1.5.2 - Painless general-purpose sampling. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/flat-mcmc-1.5.2 (JaredTobin) |
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| 01:51:08 | <Tario> | greetings |
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| 01:53:31 | <Tario> | QQ: if I have a JSON that's has the following body: |
| 01:53:32 | <Tario> | { |
| 01:53:32 | <Tario> | "a": "blabla", |
| 01:53:32 | <Tario> | "b" : 24 |
| 01:53:32 | <Tario> | } |
| 01:53:32 | <Tario> | How can I obtain with aeson the value from the key "a" as a Text, in the simplest way possible? |
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| 02:01:49 | <lemmih> | Tario: T.take 6 . T.drop 8 :) |
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| 02:03:58 | <int-e> | lemmih: I'm pretty sure that 8 would be too small :P |
| 02:04:23 | <int-e> | (I counted 9, maybe 10 with cr/lf newlines) |
| 02:06:29 | <lemmih> | Hm, right. The JSON is therefore broken. Gotta delete a space or newline. |
| 02:07:56 | <lemmih> | Tario: If you don't want to fix the JSON then you can use 'aeson' instead. |
| 02:08:34 | <Tario> | oh |
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| 02:10:27 | hackage | project-m36 0.8.1 - Relational Algebra Engine https://hackage.haskell.org/package/project-m36-0.8.1 (agentm) |
| 02:12:21 | <c_wraith> | This is one of those awkward things, where lens-aeson makes the task look like a super-tiny bit of code... But if you have problems, you suddenly need to understand lens. |
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| 02:15:29 | <Tario> | yes, I've tried using aeson, but still I'm too novice to comprehend it, but I'm still trying. |
| 02:15:29 | <Tario> | Like when presented with a JSON like |
| 02:15:29 | <Tario> | { "name": "John", "age" : 54} |
| 02:15:29 | <Tario> | I would like to obtain the Text value from the "name" key. I tried to do |
| 02:15:30 | <Tario> | let name = myJson .: "name" |
| 02:15:30 | <Tario> | Or |
| 02:15:31 | <Tario> | HashMap.lookup "name" myJson |
| 02:15:32 | <Tario> | but that doesn't work |
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| 02:16:23 | <Tario> | (I'm really new to Haskell, and it's been a learning experience. It's a really interesting language) |
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| 02:27:39 | <lemmih> | Tario: The simplest way might be: parseMaybe (.: "name") =<< decode your_input :: Maybe Text |
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| 02:29:25 | <ski> | Rembane : Standford course ? |
| 02:30:06 | <ski> | dolio : "GHCs capability to both inline or let-float, is that not using the symmetric proprety of equality?","mmm.. no I guess not","Well, but transitivity is assumed by the fact that the simplifier could repeatedly inline, and it's valid because equivalence is transitive." -- that's about `=', not about `==' |
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| 02:35:53 | <Tario> | lemmih: That would return a Nothing in case of being invalid or Just "John", in this case, correct? |
| 02:36:11 | <lemmih> | Tario: Yeah, I think so. |
| 02:36:31 | <Tario> | I think that works, I'm going to give it a try in a bit in my tiny personal project |
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| 02:36:45 | <Tario> | Thank you! |
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| 02:37:52 | <Tario> | I'm going to give it a try shortly, Thank you, lemmih! |
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| 03:10:20 | <dsal> | Tario: The simplest way is probably just to make a type that has the matching fields and let Aeson populate a value for you. The easiest way is probably lens-aeson. |
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| 03:11:34 | <Tario> | dsal: ok, that I think I can do |
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| 03:12:05 | <dsal> | λ> "{ \"name\": \"John\", \"age\" : 54}" ^? key "name" . _String -> Just "John" |
| 03:12:26 | <Tario> | I'll explain with more detail in my other device (who's also connected to the channel, but by the name of Kiraaa) |
| 03:12:34 | <Kiraaaa> | ok im here |
| 03:12:41 | <dsal> | Hey, we were just talking about you. |
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| 03:13:04 | <Kiraaaa> | really? |
| 03:15:20 | <Kiraaaa> | for a tiny login, POST endpoint, I was thinking of creating a data type like this, |
| 03:15:24 | <Kiraaaa> | data LoginData = LoginData { |
| 03:15:26 | <Kiraaaa> | email :: Text |
| 03:15:28 | <Kiraaaa> | , password :: Text |
| 03:15:30 | <dolio> | ski: I think you tagged the wrong person. |
| 03:15:31 | <Kiraaaa> | } |
| 03:15:58 | <ski> | oh |
| 03:16:01 | <ski> | so i did, sorry |
| 03:16:17 | <ski> | dminuoso ^ |
| 03:16:20 | <Kiraaaa> | with the following instances: |
| 03:16:23 | <Kiraaaa> | instance FromJSON LoginData |
| 03:16:24 | ski | 's a bit sleepy .. |
| 03:16:24 | <Kiraaaa> | instance ToJSON LoginData |
| 03:17:03 | <Kiraaaa> | so inside my POST handler, I wanted to perform the following: |
| 03:17:14 | <Kiraaaa> | my login POST handler* |
| 03:18:42 | <Kiraaaa> | pass a Handler Value, obtain the inputted json body with requirecheckjsonbody :: Handler LoginData (not sure if this was the right choice) |
| 03:19:08 | <Kiraaaa> | sort of like this: |
| 03:19:10 | <Kiraaaa> | postUserLoginR :: Handler Value |
| 03:19:11 | <Kiraaaa> | postUserLoginR = do |
| 03:19:13 | <Kiraaaa> | newLogin <- requireCheckJsonBody :: Handler Value |
| 03:19:25 | <Kiraaaa> | (ignore the last Handler Value, it should be Handler LoginData in my mind) |
| 03:19:30 | <dsal> | You can use a pastebin if you have a bunch of stuff you want to share without flooding out the whole channel. |
| 03:19:41 | <Kiraaaa> | oh |
| 03:19:56 | <Kiraaaa> | will do, it will be better |
| 03:22:02 | <Kiraaaa> | https://pastebin.com/gVwZiH2Z |
| 03:23:15 | <Kiraaaa> | so this was my attempt at getting the json body from a POST request for a simple login, for now I wanted to obtain the email from the object, and perform a query to obtain an user binded to that email address |
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| 03:25:24 | <Kiraaaa> | leading up to this: https://pastebin.com/CBrSPXPT |
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| 03:28:39 | <Kiraaaa> | however, that did not work |
| 03:30:19 | <Kiraaaa> | (due to type errors between Value and HashMap Text Value) |
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| 03:39:51 | <Kiraaaa> | this is where I got stuck, thinking on how to parse that value from the JSON (or any value from its key) |
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| 04:04:46 | <Kiraaaa> | *back to Tario (other device) |
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| 04:04:57 | <Tario> | back |
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| 07:05:33 | <lemmih> | Tario: It would be easier to help you if you pasted the error together with the code. |
| 07:07:20 | <lemmih> | Tario: You're doing something which should just work. If it doesn't then you've made a typo or a type error somewhere. But we can't help you if don't show us what is wrong. |
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| 07:20:57 | hackage | commander-cli 0.10.1.2 - A command line argument/option parser library https://hackage.haskell.org/package/commander-cli-0.10.1.2 (sgschlesinger) |
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| 08:33:47 | <jedii> | happstack anyone here using it? |
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| 08:38:38 | Guest40023 | is now known as lep-delete |
| 08:38:41 | lep-delete | is now known as Guest40023 |
| 08:38:43 | Guest40023 | is now known as lep-delete |
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| 08:44:25 | <tomjaguarpaw> | jedii: Yes! |
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| 09:04:35 | <jedii> | how si it? what happens when db grows? how multi box? or do you write app to have difernt db on diff box? |
| 09:07:53 | <tomjaguarpaw> | I haven't used it for anything that complicated |
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| 09:40:27 | hackage | formatting 7.0.0.2 - Combinator-based type-safe formatting (like printf() or FORMAT) https://hackage.haskell.org/package/formatting-7.0.0.2 (AlexChapman) |
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| 10:02:28 | hackage | hedis 0.12.15 - Client library for the Redis datastore: supports full command set,pipelining. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hedis-0.12.15 (k_bx) |
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| 10:08:34 | <ggVGc> | so, what's the state of refactoring of haskell today? Is HaRe just dead? |
| 10:08:40 | <ggVGc> | and we have no alternative? :/ |
| 10:08:45 | <ggVGc> | or am I missing something |
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| 10:17:41 | <Uniaika> | ggVGc: you've got a mixture of hlint and retrie https://engineering.fb.com/open-source/retrie/ |
| 10:17:50 | <Uniaika> | the latter of which is available as a plugin in HLS |
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| 10:27:27 | hackage | inline-c 0.9.1.3 - Write Haskell source files including C code inline. No FFI required. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/inline-c-0.9.1.3 (FrancescoMazzoli) |
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| 10:55:27 | hackage | path-dhall-instance 0.2.1.0 - ToDhall and FromDhall instances for Path. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/path-dhall-instance-0.2.1.0 (locallycompact) |
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| 11:18:27 | hackage | heterocephalus 1.0.5.4 - A type-safe template engine for working with front end development tools https://hackage.haskell.org/package/heterocephalus-1.0.5.4 (arowM) |
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| 12:47:28 | hackage | unliftio-path 0.0.1.0 - UnliftIO using well-typed Paths. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/unliftio-path-0.0.1.0 (locallycompact) |
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| 13:13:58 | hackage | unliftio-path 0.0.2.0 - UnliftIO using well-typed Paths. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/unliftio-path-0.0.2.0 (locallycompact) |
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| 13:15:28 | hackage | aeson-combinators 0.0.3.0 - Aeson combinators for dead simple JSON decoding https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aeson-combinators-0.0.3.0 (MarekFajkus) |
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| 14:15:31 | <dwts> | quick question to all of you lambda wizards. Supposing we have this expression: (λx.x)(λy.y)z , are (λy.y) and z two arguments that λx accepts or is it that λx accepts one argument, λy which itself accepts another argument z ? |
| 14:16:32 | <hpc> | (λx.x) takes (λy.y), then the /result/ of that is what takes z |
| 14:16:42 | <dwts> | ok |
| 14:16:52 | <dwts> | so both x and y lambdas accept one argument |
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| 14:24:42 | <ski> | yes |
| 14:26:32 | <merijn> | *all* lambdas accept only one argument |
| 14:27:01 | <merijn> | We just sometimes use syntactic short hand where we skip the boilerplate and write "as if" they took multiple |
| 14:27:57 | <dwts> | yeah, the book made that clear in the first pages that all lambdas accept only one argument, but the way it's written confused me to think that it accepts two |
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| 14:33:48 | <tomjaguarpaw> | Hmm, careful. The correct parenthesisation is ((λx.x)(λy.y))z. As I understood it your question was about that. |
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| 14:35:34 | <dwts> | tomjaguarpaw: hmm okay |
| 14:35:41 | <dwts> | yeah, my question was about that |
| 14:35:58 | <dwts> | trying to figure out how to "read" this expressions properly |
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| 14:37:02 | <merijn> | Everything's left associative, so as tomjaguarpaw says "\y.y" is passed to "\x.x" and "z" is passed to the result of that |
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| 14:37:51 | <dwts> | yup, that makes sense now, the confusion comes from slightly more "complex" expressions but I'll get there I guess :) |
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| 15:10:57 | hackage | arch-hs 0.3.0.0 - Distribute hackage packages to archlinux https://hackage.haskell.org/package/arch-hs-0.3.0.0 (berberman) |
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| 15:23:52 | <Tario> | lemmih: yes, I'll post the error I'm receiving from GHC |
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| 16:24:51 | <dminuoso> | What's the relationship between sum types and existentials? It occured to me that there's a similar theme going on. That is, some `f :: T -> ∃x. x` and `g :: T -> G :+: H` behave somewhat similarly, and consuming them requires being able to handle "all possible values" |
| 16:25:21 | <dminuoso> | (Except that with existentials, they seem to behave more like open sum types) |
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| 16:26:43 | <dminuoso> | And equivalently, some `h :: G :+: H -> T` seems similar to `i :: ∀x. x -> T` |
| 16:28:01 | <dminuoso> | Of course, it makes more sense to probably constrain the existential/universal quantification, so say `f :: T -> ∃x. C x *> x` and `i :: ∀x. C x => x -> T` |
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| 16:29:28 | hackage | hwk 0.3 - Simple Haskell-based awk-like tool https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hwk-0.3 (JensPetersen) |
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| 16:33:27 | hackage | pandoc 2.11 - Conversion between markup formats https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pandoc-2.11 (JohnMacFarlane) |
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| 16:42:06 | <ski> | dminuoso : roughly, sums and existentials are "positive", products, exponentials, and universals are "negative" |
| 16:42:49 | <ski> | (btw, did you see what i responded, earlier ?) |
| 16:44:07 | <dminuoso> | ski: No I did not |
| 16:44:34 | <ski> | "GHCs capability to both inline or let-float, is that not using the symmetric proprety of equality?","mmm.. no I guess not","Well, but transitivity is assumed by the fact that the simplifier could repeatedly inline, and it's valid because equivalence is transitive." -- that's about `=', not about `==' |
| 16:44:55 | <dminuoso> | 12:15:58 dminuoso | ski: I guess its two fold since Haskell implementations to assume reflexivity and transitivity of (=) at least. |
| 16:45:06 | <dminuoso> | I assumed it was clear from that previous line that I was referring to (=). |
| 16:45:17 | <ski> | yes, it was |
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| 16:47:58 | <ski> | (but what i was talking about, before, was Haskell implementations (as opposed to libraries) not relying on having the laws hold for `==' (as opposed to for `=')) |
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| 16:50:05 | <ski> | (i guess maybe we were talking past each other, a bit, at the end ? i was still on the distinction between `==' and `=', and how, if you treat them as talking about the same notion of equality, you have to do something more, when simulating quotient types as abstract data types, like Mercury does) |
| 16:50:58 | <ski> | anyway, sums and existentials are "lower adjoints", while products, exponentials, and universals are "upper adjoints" |
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| 17:10:57 | hackage | type-fun 0.1.2 - Collection of widely reimplemented type families https://hackage.haskell.org/package/type-fun-0.1.2 (AlekseyUymanov) |
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| 17:15:57 | <dminuoso> | ski: lower/upper adjoints of what? |
| 17:16:03 | <dminuoso> | Or did you mean left/right? |
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| 17:18:02 | <dminuoso> | Well the thing is, I dont quite draw a comparison between `sum` and `product` here, since it's rather that `sum in negative position/sum in positive position` seems to line up with `existential in positive position/univeral in negative position` |
| 17:18:37 | <dminuoso> | Which I found odd, since if I have an existential producer, I need a universal consumer to eliminate it |
| 17:19:03 | <dminuoso> | But to eliminate a sum, it's sufficient to have a function that consumes a sum |
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| 17:19:42 | <dminuoso> | Though, what Im saying is a bit handwaving and incorrect, since the universal quantification is bracketed differently than I imagine |
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| 17:20:34 | <dminuoso> | To consume some `s :: ∃x. C x *> x` I need some `f :: forall x. C x => x -> ...`, and not `g :: (forall x. C x => x) -> ...` |
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| 17:21:18 | <dminuoso> | The thing that's just buzzing around my head is, when you produce a value of a sum type, it acts as a sort of existential since from outside the choice of which type was used is hidden |
| 17:21:35 | <dminuoso> | And equivalently, when you consume a sum type, you have to pattern match on all cases, that is you have to be able to handle *all* possible values |
| 17:22:06 | <dminuoso> | So a function `f :: (S + T + U) -> V` must be able to handle all choices `S`, `T` and `U` |
| 17:22:28 | <dminuoso> | While a function/producer `g :: ... -> (S + T + U)` hides which choice it made |
| 17:22:33 | <dminuoso> | ski: Am I making any sense here? |
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| 17:23:39 | <dminuoso> | It was in this sense, that I was thinking an existential could be an open sum type. |
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| 17:25:21 | <dminuoso> | Because, a function `f' :: (∃x. C x *> x) -> V` must be able to handle all possible type choices made for `x` (constrained by C, so this is a sort of open sum type of all types belonging to C) |
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| 17:25:56 | <dminuoso> | And equivalently, a function/producer `g :: ... -> (∃x. C x *> x)` would tell you "I chose some type of C, but I wont tell you which" |
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| 17:26:34 | <dminuoso> | And its open in the sense that you can just write an `instance C T` anywhere, so you can just add to it |
| 17:27:18 | <ski> | `f :: (exists x. C x *> F x) -> V' is equivalent to `f :: forall x. C x => (F x -> V)', yes |
| 17:27:39 | <ski> | i don't follow "`sum in negative position/sum in positive position` seems to line up with `existential in positive position/univeral in negative position`" |
| 17:28:06 | <ski> | "But to eliminate a sum, it's sufficient to have a function that consumes a sum" -- this is a truism |
| 17:28:39 | <ski> | what's `(S + T + U) -> V' equivalent to ? |
| 17:29:02 | <ski> | "lower/upper adjoints of what?","Or did you mean left/right?" -- yes (but i don't like that terminology) |
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| 17:31:06 | <dminuoso> | ski: https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/6d3ad7972fbe6a00e1a7c9fffcc64c77 |
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| 17:31:53 | <dminuoso> | Im using existentials instead of forall, because it's easier in my head here. |
| 17:32:31 | <ski> | what do you want to say about these two pairs of functions ? |
| 17:34:06 | <dminuoso> | f and f' behave similarly, if they want to consume their argument, they need to provide an implementation that handles *all* possible choices a caller makes. |
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| 17:34:22 | <ski> | yes |
| 17:34:33 | <dminuoso> | And the sum type seems like an existential in that sense |
| 17:34:49 | <dminuoso> | Except the types it ranges over is finite |
| 17:35:17 | <dminuoso> | Since it can always be only S, T or U. In case of the existential in f it could be any member of C. |
| 17:35:25 | <dminuoso> | Or, if unconstrained, literally any type. |
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| 17:37:22 | <dminuoso> | 19:34:33 dminuoso | And the sum type seems like an existential in that sense |
| 17:37:25 | <dminuoso> | Is this an accurate assessment? |
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| 17:40:00 | <monochrom> | dminuoso: This is similar to my http://www.vex.net/~trebla/weblog/any-all-some.html |
| 17:40:11 | <monochrom> | especially "2. Any" and "3. Every" |
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| 17:46:57 | <ski> | dminuoso : ⌜(∃ x. C x ∗› F x) → V⌝ is "trivial" in the sense that it can already be expressed as (the in some sense simpler) ⌜∀ x. C x ⇒ (F x → V)⌝. ditto for ⌜(S + T + U) → V⌝ as ⌜(S → V) × (T → V) × (U → V)⌝. otoh ⌜V → (S + T + U)⌝ and ⌜V → (∃ x. C x ∗› F x)⌝ are "serious / nontrivial" |
| 17:47:13 | <ski> | (the first two equivalences are the adjunctions, of course) |
| 17:47:56 | <ski> | "And the sum type seems like an existential in that sense" -- the sum type has similarities to the existential here, yes |
| 17:48:21 | <koz_> | monochrom: That's a really good writeup. |
| 17:49:20 | <ski> | @quote monochrom is.my |
| 17:49:20 | <lambdabot> | monochrom says: Programming is a dialectic class struggle between the author and the user. My freedom is your slavery. Your ignorance is my strength. |
| 17:49:40 | <monochrom> | :) |
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| 17:54:40 | <dolio> | dminuoso: Either is a 2-ary sum, exists is a *-ary sum (sort of). |
| 17:54:47 | <ski> | "If ⌜p⌝ is any prime, then for every integer ⌜a⌝, ⌜aᵖ⌝ is congruent to ⌜a⌝, modulo ⌜p⌝." |
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| 17:55:38 | <xerox_> | so squaring doesn't change parity (modulo-2-ness) cubing doesn't change module-3-ness and so forth |
| 17:56:42 | <ski> | (∃ p : ℕ. Prime p) → (∀ a : ℤ. aᵖ ≅ a (mod p)) |
| 17:56:44 | <dolio> | Really Σ is a sum, and ∃ is something more restrictive. |
| 17:57:03 | <dolio> | But you don't have Σ in Haskell. |
| 17:57:16 | <ski> | "and" corresponds to the existential here. note that this is an anaphoric use. (⌜p⌝ appears to be used, out of scope) |
| 17:57:25 | <dminuoso> | dolio: You said "sort of", in what sense do they differ? |
| 17:57:30 | <dolio> | In the same way that ∀ is different from Π. |
| 17:57:43 | <ski> | er, .. s/and/any/ |
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| 17:58:10 | <dolio> | dminuoso: ∃ is parametric, so it is supposed to 'hide' the choice of type. |
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| 17:59:34 | <dolio> | In e.g. Agda, you have Σ over types where the value is accessible, and then it's a strict generalization, where A + B = Σ b:Bool. if b then A else B. |
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| 18:02:15 | <dolio> | That's why it's Σ, or 'dependent sum' and not 'product' like people sometimes call it. :) |
| 18:03:05 | <ski> | "dependent sum","dependent product" vs. "dependent product","dependent exponential" |
| 18:03:16 | <hpc> | it's like how Σ in math is the sum of a function for x in some range |
| 18:03:23 | <dolio> | The 'tags' of the sum are generalized to an arbitrary type, rather than an externally given set of constructor tags. |
| 18:03:30 | <ski> | (i don't really see the point of the former terminology) |
| 18:04:06 | <phadej> | calling Sigma dependent pair makes sense, dependent product is wrong. |
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| 18:04:18 | <ski> | why ? |
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| 18:04:32 | <phadej> | because Pi is product |
| 18:05:00 | <ski> | it's an iterated/flexible product, yes |
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| 18:05:20 | <ski> | but the dependency is not "on the level of thinking of it as a product", the way i see it |
| 18:05:23 | <phadej> | dependent pair and dependent function space are non-ambiguous names |
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| 18:05:41 | <ski> | the dependency is from the exponent to the base. so if i'm thinking about the dependency, i'm not thinking about it as a product |
| 18:06:08 | <phadej> | I'd prefer names where I don't have to think which way they are ;) |
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| 18:06:25 | <phadej> | also sigma-type and pi-type are good |
| 18:06:36 | <phadej> | jargon, but concise and non-ambiguous |
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| 18:06:53 | <ski> | (and similarly, "dependent sum" doesn't make sense. or rather, "dependent sum" ought to refer to ⌜(k : A) ∨ (⋯k⋯)⌝, where ⌜k⌝ is a continuation (a disproof/refutation) of type ⌜A⌝) |
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| 18:09:55 | <dolio> | Σ is a coproduct and Π is a product in a pretty straight forward way. |
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| 18:10:43 | <ski> | (if i'm thinking about the dependency in ⌜(x : A) ∧ (⋯x⋯)⌝, i'm clearly thinking about it as a product, with a dependency from one factor (the "multiplicand", if you wish) to the other (the "multiplier"). if i'm thinking of ⌜(i : {0,1,2}) ∧ Bᵢ⌝ as an iterated/flexible sum ⌜B₀ ∨ B₁ ∨ B₂⌝, then i'm not explicitly thinking about the dependency) |
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| 18:14:02 | <ski> | when i write ⌜∑ᵢ Bᵢ⌝/⌜∏ᵢ Bᵢ⌝, i'm commonly thinking of this as a(n iterated/flexible) sum/product. but if i'm talking/thinking about the dependency, i'm clearly thinking of this as a product / an exponential (coming from iterated sum/product) |
| 18:14:58 | hackage | cut-the-crap 2.1.0 - Cuts out uninteresting parts of videos by detecting silences. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cut-the-crap-2.1.0 (Jappie) |
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| 18:16:54 | <koz_> | ski: What's a dependent exponential? |
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| 18:17:04 | <dolio> | Well, in this case, 'sum' is the correct terminology to recognize the correspondence between Σ and +, so I don't see the value in insisting on the other terminology. |
| 18:17:10 | <koz_> | Like, I know that 'exponential type = function', but I don't get how dependent types would go here. |
| 18:17:14 | <dolio> | It is strictly worse for understanding this case. |
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| 18:20:36 | <dolio> | I generally call them Σ and Π. |
| 18:21:10 | <ski> | (i sometimes write ⌜(i <) n ⋅ aᵢ⌝, and ⌜aᵢ⁽ⁱ˂⁾ⁿ⌝, for the usual arithmetic operations, to emphasize the dependent product/exponential viewpoint) |
| 18:21:28 | <hpc> | koz_: perhaps something like printf's type, adding more parameters based on the format string |
| 18:21:42 | <koz_> | hpc: Ah, OK. |
| 18:22:01 | <koz_> | I didn't think of that, but it makes much sense. |
| 18:22:05 | <ski> | yes, i should probably say that when i'm thinking of it as a "dependent product", i'm usually not writing it as ⌜∑⌝ |
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| 18:22:40 | <nihilazo> | hi, I'm struggling to understand applicative functors. I understand the concept I think, but I don't see how they're useful? |
| 18:22:40 | <nihilazo> | going through chapter 11 of learn you a haskell, I can't really see why this is useful vs just removing the stuff from the functors and using it as normal data |
| 18:22:55 | <nihilazo> | aside from for doing stuff with lists, which I feel like comprehensions are cleaner for? Is it just a style choice to use them? |
| 18:23:44 | <koz_> | nihilazo: Applicative functors are the thing that allows us to sequence computations. |
| 18:23:58 | <koz_> | Functors alone cannot do this - they can only 'lift' pure functions to operate on effectful data. |
| 18:24:03 | <dolio> | (Some) comprehensions can be turned into Applicative operations. |
| 18:24:16 | <koz_> | Whereas Applicative actually allows us to compute inside of an effectful context. |
| 18:24:42 | <dolio> | So by saying comprehensions are good, you are acknowledging that Applicative is good, just with a different syntax. |
| 18:24:46 | <c_wraith> | nihilazo: have you run across the Traversable class? It's one of those things that really points out why Applicative shines. |
| 18:24:48 | <koz_> | For example: suppose you have x :: m Int, y :: m Int, where Applicative m. How do you add them? |
| 18:24:57 | <koz_> | With Functor alone? You can't. |
| 18:25:36 | <koz_> | But with Applicative, you can, and quite straightforwardly, while maintaining the effects that 'wrap' those values. |
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| 18:26:48 | <nihilazo> | ah ok, that makes sense |
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| 18:27:27 | hackage | cut-the-crap 2.1.1 - Cuts out uninteresting parts of videos by detecting silences. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cut-the-crap-2.1.1 (Jappie) |
| 18:27:37 | <nihilazo> | thanks |
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| 18:31:09 | <nihilazo> | Still not sure I entirely understand how applicatives are used in context, even though I think I understand the idea? I can always go back and revise if I come across things i don't understand |
| 18:31:50 | <ski> | koz_ : ⌜Bₓ⁽ˣ ݃⁾ᴬ⌝ is equivalent to ⌜(x :) A → Bₓ⌝ |
| 18:32:18 | <koz_> | ski: Sorry, but I don't get that notation. |
| 18:33:17 | <ski> | koz_ : example : ⌜replicate : (n :) ℕ → A → Aⁿ⌝ |
| 18:33:42 | <koz_> | Ah, OK. |
| 18:35:01 | <ski> | (i don't mind calling ⌜Σ⌝. it's just that the adjective "dependent" here seems completely misplaced to me. there is no dependence of one term of the term, upon another term of the sum) |
| 18:35:11 | <ski> | (don't mind calling it "sum", that is) |
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| 18:54:23 | <ski> | nihilazo : in that case, you could say `(+) <$> x <*> y', or `liftA2 (+) x y' |
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| 18:56:07 | <nihilazo> | ah ok |
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| 19:04:58 | <avdb> | Why is getting started with programming so hard? I've been procrastinating every minute I had the past month ... |
| 19:06:23 | <yushyin> | because it's often so dull |
| 19:07:57 | <Uniaika> | unless you have a compelling use-case, it's dull indeed |
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| 19:08:26 | <dolio> | Is it? |
| 19:08:38 | <nihilazo> | I've decided on a project to do for my first thing in haskell but it's maybe not something haskell is suited to particularly |
| 19:08:51 | <nihilazo> | because just learning is interesting but also kinda pointless if you then do nothing |
| 19:09:19 | <avdb> | yushyin: What do you mean by dull? |
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| 19:12:41 | <monochrom> | It's a very vague question. |
| 19:13:13 | <avdb> | It is, maybe I should just schedule an hour every day instead of being hopeless. |
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| 19:13:25 | <monochrom> | It also sounds like a counsellor is most suitable for this. |
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| 19:25:39 | <maerwald> | programming is for fellows with very hight frustration tolerance |
| 19:26:26 | <monochrom> | In my case it's the opposite. Social interaction is the highly frustrating one. |
| 19:27:08 | <monochrom> | People are moody. People have subtexts. People have secret rules. People expect me to second-guess them. People never say what they mean. |
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| 19:27:35 | <monochrom> | Programming has none of that, and I decided to have none of that. |
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| 19:28:04 | <maerwald> | which begs the question... why do we seek frustration? |
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| 19:28:27 | <ptrcmd> | your computer might become moody one day and decide to stop working xD |
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| 19:29:11 | <monochrom> | Then again, it was also a time when computers were simple, e.g., Apple II. Today's Windows look like moody and full of hidden rules, too. |
| 19:29:12 | <MarcelineVQ> | ptrcmd: a lot of very smart people are working very hard to achieve just that |
| 19:30:06 | <monochrom> | I imagine that programming is frustrating to social people because programming is against "do what I mean not what I said". |
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| 19:30:52 | <monochrom> | whereas programming is natural to me because it does what I said and I do what it said. What meaning? |
| 19:31:36 | <Zetagon> | I can be pretty frustrated with computers not doing what I mean a times |
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| 19:32:55 | <Zetagon> | I had a computer lab where I was going to write some routing tables, and missed to type one dot in an ip address and the route program just swallowed it whole |
| 19:33:01 | <MarcelineVQ> | semantic death approaches in the form of a great purple cloud, sparks within ignite the surface in brilliant flashes that draw in lowly insects, soon to be consumed and added to the cloud. Would you like to file a git issue about the cloud's color? |
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| 19:33:42 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 19:33:46 | ski | idly recalls programs which would only repond with `?', if they detected something they didn't understand, in user input |
| 19:34:13 | <MarcelineVQ> | ski: I don't know anything about 'eat the apple' |
| 19:35:42 | <ski> | like the `?' responses at <http://cs.wellesley.edu/~cs249/Resources/ed_is_the_standard_text_editor.html> |
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| 19:36:11 | <ski> | (although, in my case, it was a monitor/disassembler) |
| 19:38:30 | <maerwald> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vty-5.31/docs/Graphics-Vty-Attributes.html#v:blink this doesn't do anything for me |
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| 19:40:08 | <maerwald> | I mean, not in an asthetics sense... but in a practical one |
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| 19:48:15 | <maerwald> | why no one invents a new terminal? |
| 19:48:53 | <Uniaika> | maerwald: non-VT100 terminal? |
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| 20:06:35 | <maerwald> | a clean set of standards |
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| 20:07:38 | <maerwald> | should only take 3 lifetimes to convince everyone |
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| 20:21:47 | <koz_> | maerwald: 3? Optimistic aren't we? |
| 20:21:57 | <koz_> | Also, anything on my xz thingo I tested for you? |
| 20:22:15 | <maerwald> | xz? |
| 20:22:18 | <maerwald> | ah |
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| 20:25:03 | <hpc> | is that what happens when you compose two XY problems? :D |
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| 20:26:16 | <monochrom> | or maybe compress two XY problems and get an xz file. :) |
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| 20:28:21 | <hpc> | imagine the trouble you have to be in to make a gz |
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| 20:44:58 | hackage | longshot 0.1.0.3 - Fast Brute-force search using parallelism https://hackage.haskell.org/package/longshot-0.1.0.3 (thyeem) |
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| 21:48:11 | <jedii> | java is so vile and same with .net |
| 21:48:22 | <jedii> | why cant more companies adopt haskell or something decent |
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| 21:48:45 | <Guest25> | Can be made a nuclear fusion device from a lab on a chip? |
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| 21:52:02 | <jedii> | use thorium safe atomic |
| 21:52:09 | <jedii> | liquid floride salt reactor flibe.com |
| 21:52:15 | <jedii> | fusion doesnt work |
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| 21:52:40 | <dolio> | This doesn't seem like it's about Haskell. |
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| 21:58:56 | <Guest25> | Could be made a nuclear fusion device from a "lab on a chip" device? |
| 21:59:03 | ChanServ | sets mode +o monochrom |
| 21:59:06 | monochrom | sets mode +b *!*@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.78.75.21 |
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| 22:01:57 | <maerwald> | for the right amount of money, yes :) |
| 22:02:07 | <maerwald> | here's my bank account... |
| 22:02:20 | <monochrom> | They're gone. |
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| 22:03:28 | hackage | pandoc-plot 1.0.0.0 - A Pandoc filter to include figures generated from code blocks using your plotting toolkit of choice. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pandoc-plot-1.0.0.0 (LaurentRDC) |
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| 22:11:23 | <rom1504> | "the right amount of money", like a few dozens of billions :) ? |
| 22:16:39 | <carter> | lab fusion != net energy positive fusino |
| 22:16:41 | <carter> | *fusion |
| 22:17:10 | <carter> | theres some cool flavors where you could build it at home if you tolerated the eletrical bill and had enough materials to build stuff |
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| 22:18:16 | <rom1504> | ah really? is that used for anything useful? |
| 22:18:48 | <dminuoso> | personal enjoyment |
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| 22:19:05 | <dminuoso> | I've read articles that some kids even did build fusion reactors at home with easy-to-obtain materials |
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| 22:19:19 | <dminuoso> | nuclear fusion is not hard |
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| 22:20:22 | <dminuoso> | sustained steady nuclear fusion with a Q > 1, that's an as-of-yet unsolved problem |
| 22:20:47 | <dolio> | What's a lab on a chip, though? |
| 22:22:32 | <dolio> | Sounds like a phrase from a Markov chain. |
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| 22:29:57 | hackage | churros 0.1.0.0 - Churros: Channel/Arrow based streaming computation library. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/churros-0.1.0.0 (LyndonMaydwell) |
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| 22:56:28 | hackage | hstar 0.1.0.5 - Haskell version of tar CLI utility https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hstar-0.1.0.5 (vmchale) |
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| 23:28:28 | <proofofme> | which MySql driver do y'all recommend? |
| 23:28:38 | <koz_> | mysql-haskell is pretty good in my experience. |
| 23:29:10 | <koz_> | It's what I use at my Real Job For Real Money due to us having to interact with a MySQL database. |
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| 23:29:55 | <proofofme> | thanks, i will check it out |
| 23:30:45 | <proofofme> | cabal: The following packages are likely to be broken by the reinstalls: |
| 23:30:46 | <proofofme> | tls-1.5.4 |
| 23:30:46 | <proofofme> | http-client-tls-0.3.5.3 |
| 23:30:47 | <proofofme> | scalpel-0.6.2 |
| 23:30:49 | <proofofme> | http-conduit-2.3.7.3 |
| 23:30:51 | <proofofme> | connection-0.3.1 |
| 23:30:53 | <proofofme> | Use --force-reinstalls if you want to install anyway. |
| 23:30:59 | <koz_> | proofofme: What version of cabal are you using? |
| 23:31:01 | <proofofme> | would you trust --force-reinstalls? |
| 23:31:03 | <koz_> | This shoudl be a non-issue. |
| 23:31:24 | <proofofme> | cabal --version |
| 23:31:25 | <proofofme> | cabal-install version 2.2.0.0 |
| 23:31:25 | <proofofme> | compiled using version 2.2.0.1 of the Cabal library |
| 23:31:30 | <koz_> | That is hilariously old. |
| 23:31:38 | <koz_> | Current is 3.2, and we're heading to 3.4 soon. |
| 23:31:41 | <koz_> | Upgrade first. |
| 23:31:43 | <Axman6> | That's an error message I have not seen for a long time - I thought reinstalls were completely unnecessary with modern cabal? |
| 23:32:02 | <koz_> | Axman6: Yes. Emphasis on 'with modern cabal' and *points to version above*. |
| 23:32:11 | <Axman6> | newhoggy: If you haven't seen it, you might enjoy https://liuliu.me/eyes/loading-csv-file-at-the-speed-limit-of-the-nvme-storage/ |
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| 23:51:57 | hackage | churros 0.1.0.1 - Channel/Arrow based streaming computation library. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/churros-0.1.0.1 (LyndonMaydwell) |
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| 23:56:47 | <proofofme> | cabal install cabal-install, yeah? I did this, checked the version and it's the same one still hmmm |
| 23:57:05 | <koz_> | proofofme: What platform are you on? |
| 23:57:08 | <koz_> | (as in, which OS?) |
| 23:57:12 | <proofofme> | MacOS |
| 23:57:16 | <koz_> | Use ghcup. |
| 23:57:24 | <koz_> | To get a working toolchain. |
| 23:57:26 | <koz_> | Always and forever. |
| 23:57:49 | <koz_> | Since that'll not only do this for you, with sensible versions, it'll also show you what you have and when it becomes old. |
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All times are in UTC on 2020-10-11.