Logs on 2020-10-12 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 00:02:02 | <zoom8484> | basic question regarding how the list type is able to construct a list value using syntax like [5] |
| 00:02:11 | <zoom8484> | the list type is defined as: data [] a = [] | a : [a] |
| 00:02:28 | <Axman6> | it's syntax sugar |
| 00:02:31 | <zoom8484> | I've read that [5] is syntactic sugar for 5:[] |
| 00:02:38 | <koz_> | Yeah, basically this. |
| 00:02:53 | <zoom8484> | but is that sugar built into the compiler or is it derived the from list data definition |
| 00:03:03 | <monochrom> | built into the compiler |
| 00:03:04 | <Axman6> | it;s defined as part of the language |
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| 00:03:18 | <Axman6> | so a haskell compiler has to support it |
| 00:03:29 | <zoom8484> | thanks. is it specific to only [], or is it available for my own types as well, of course using different symbols |
| 00:03:45 | <Axman6> | sort of |
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| 00:03:59 | <monochrom> | Unavailable for your own types. |
| 00:04:17 | <Axman6> | we have the OVerloadedLists extensions which lets you construct things using list syntax |
| 00:04:33 | <zoom8484> | hmm, so even though the data type is really a library-defined type, there is hard-coded logic in the compiler to handle this specific case of it |
| 00:04:52 | <Axman6> | so you can write [('a',True),('b',False)] :: Map Char Bool |
| 00:05:00 | <Axman6> | yes |
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| 00:05:24 | <zoom8484> | ok, thanks. just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing some magic in the data declaration for the list type |
| 00:05:31 | <monochrom> | Actually "data [] a = [] | a : [a]" cannot be library-defined either. |
| 00:05:51 | <zoom8484> | it's defined in GHC.Types. Is that considered "built-in" |
| 00:05:56 | <Axman6> | there is a lot of magic magic when it comes to making lists feel familliar |
| 00:06:33 | <Axman6> | s/magic magic/magic/ |
| 00:07:26 | <monochrom> | I don't know what GHC.Types does, but you go through the Haskell grammar and there is no way "data [] a = [] | a : [a]" is correct syntax. |
| 00:07:38 | <zoom8484> | i got that via :i [] in ghci |
| 00:07:42 | <monochrom> | s/correct/legal/ |
| 00:08:32 | <Axman6> | zoom8484: youy're right to be confused - all of this is only legal because the standard says it is, and it's inconsistent with every other data type definition |
| 00:08:45 | <proofofme> | `curl --proto '=https' --tlsv1.2 -sSf https://get-ghcup.haskell.org | sh` <= I did this. `cabal --version` says the same thing still :( |
| 00:09:02 | <Axman6> | you can't make your own list by saying data <> a = <> | a :+ <a> for example |
| 00:09:16 | <Axman6> | proofofme: how did you install cabal initially? |
| 00:09:23 | <monochrom> | It's easy to check. "data Maybe a = Nothing | Just a", this is library-defined but even if the library didn't have it, you could have entered this yourself. In fact you can enter it right into ghci and it will be gladly accepted. |
| 00:09:28 | <ski> | non-standard data constructor name `[]', non-standard type constructor name `[]', syntactic sugar for lists of definite length `[a,b,c,...y,z]', syntactic sugar for list types `[T]', list comprehensions `[E | x <- L,let {...},G]', `OverloadedLists' extension |
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| 00:09:34 | <proofofme> | I think homebrew maybe? idr |
| 00:09:47 | <monochrom> | Now try "data [] a = [] | a : [a]", that will be a syntax error left right and centre. |
| 00:09:54 | <Axman6> | proofofme: well start by uninstalling it from homebrew |
| 00:10:20 | <Axman6> | monochrom: I love the inconsistency of using both [] a and [a] |
| 00:10:36 | <monochrom> | "[a]" is very intuitive. |
| 00:10:44 | <ski> | "intuitive" |
| 00:10:52 | <monochrom> | It's why I doubt everything intuitive. 90% probably of being wrong. |
| 00:10:52 | <koz_> | proofofme: You have to then use ghcup to install cabal. |
| 00:11:12 | <Axman6> | exept when people start writing f [a] = ... expecting a to represent all the a's (or something) |
| 00:11:15 | <monochrom> | If it's intuitive it's BS. Change my mind. |
| 00:11:27 | hackage | churros 0.1.0.2 - Channel/Arrow based streaming computation library. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/churros-0.1.0.2 (LyndonMaydwell) |
| 00:11:30 | <ski> | Axman6 : i wonder why people do that .. |
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| 00:11:38 | <Axman6> | yeah I see it a lot |
| 00:11:42 | <monochrom> | For example every mixfix syntax! |
| 00:11:52 | <MarcelineVQ> | at least it's not agda, where [a] is an identifier, like xs, and [ a ] is a list of a single a, like [x] |
| 00:11:55 | <ski> | i guess people want to represent the type (or some aspect of it), in the identifier name |
| 00:12:01 | <ski> | BASIC,Perl,.. |
| 00:12:12 | <Axman6> | when I was teaching firsty years it qwas very common for students to get stuck in "I'm using a list, therefore I MUST use square brackets" |
| 00:12:19 | <ski> | (people even say `strlen()' when they mean `strlen' ..) |
| 00:12:45 | <ski> | Axman6 : the faster they get out of that, the better, imho |
| 00:13:02 | <Axman6> | indeed |
| 00:13:05 | <proofofme> | https://gist.github.com/begriffs/6408415 would something like this work, and then rerun the ghcup command? |
| 00:13:19 | <ski> | iirc, i saw some suggestion for allowing some syntax with square backets, as an alternative to `x : xs' .. not really a fan of that idea |
| 00:13:34 | <Axman6> | I think we might have changed the course to use data List a = Nil | Cons a (List a) at least for a few weeks at the beginning |
| 00:13:39 | <ski> | (Prolog,Erlang, and (iirc) Clean, does that) |
| 00:14:25 | <Axman6> | proofofme: if you haven't done anything, that will probably be a decent start, but if you used homebrew you will also need to uninstall ghc and cabal from there too |
| 00:14:28 | <ski> | MarcelineVQ : hah, yea .. |
| 00:14:42 | <Axman6> | ski: yeah I always found that gross |
| 00:14:53 | <ski> | MarcelineVQ : sometimes i name proofs of propositions, that way, in Agda, by removing the spaces |
| 00:14:58 | <Axman6> | but syntax is hard. all we need is trees and opaque hashes |
| 00:15:24 | <MarcelineVQ> | ski: ye |
| 00:15:40 | <MarcelineVQ> | foo a b x>y =... |
| 00:16:10 | <ski> | perhaps some notation for "the unique value in scope having this type" could be useful .. not sure |
| 00:16:33 | <MarcelineVQ> | _ ? |
| 00:16:56 | <ski> | it doesn't mean the same, in patterns |
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| 00:17:48 | <dolio> | I've been using identifiers like `[a]` in Agda lately. It was pretty convenient that they aren't lists. |
| 00:17:53 | <MarcelineVQ> | not in pattern no but why would you you need that in patterns? |
| 00:18:03 | <dolio> | Because I don't even need lists for what I was doing. |
| 00:19:23 | <ski> | MarcelineVQ : to remind myself of the type of the particular pattern |
| 00:20:24 | <ski> | (taking into context the refinements made by matching on data constructors) |
| 00:23:26 | <proofofme> | tried that script ... still have the old cabal. should i use `rm -r /usr/local/bin/cabal`? |
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| 00:30:46 | <koz_> | proofofme: Did you adjust your PATH as ghcup suggested? |
| 00:31:30 | <proofofme> | no, I didn't ... |
| 00:31:48 | <koz_> | proofofme: Then it's highly likely you're not seeing the newly-installed (higher-versioned) cabal. |
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| 00:36:32 | <proofofme> | yes! success! putStrLn "Thanks, koz_" |
| 00:36:58 | <koz_> | proofofme: No worries. You can use 'ghcup list' to see what cabal it gave you, and which are available. |
| 00:37:06 | <koz_> | You should now no longer see issues of the form you ran into. |
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| 00:39:42 | <proofofme> | could not resolve dependencies. so Kafkaesque lol |
| 00:40:03 | <koz_> | Exact error message (in a pastebin)? |
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| 00:42:30 | <proofofme> | https://pastebin.pl/view/d5fa52c0 |
| 00:43:24 | <zoom8484> | thanks guys! |
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| 00:43:59 | <koz_> | proofofme: Try re-running with --minimize-conflict-set? |
| 00:44:53 | <proofofme> | https://pastebin.pl/view/9d998ecb |
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| 00:45:53 | <koz_> | Hmm, you can do one of two things: use GHC 8.6.5 or try with --allow-newer. |
| 00:46:57 | hackage | web-plugins 0.4.0 - dynamic plugin system for web applications https://hackage.haskell.org/package/web-plugins-0.4.0 (JeremyShaw) |
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| 00:48:24 | <proofofme> | LICENSE: openBinaryFile: does not exist (No such file or directory). <---from --allow-newer |
| 00:48:39 | <proofofme> | wouldn't it be bad to go back to 8.6.5? |
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| 00:53:24 | <koz_> | proofofme: Why? I mean, is there a particular 8.8 feature you want? |
| 00:53:36 | <koz_> | ghcup can give you multiple GHC versions quite trivially. |
| 00:53:52 | <koz_> | And you can use 'cabal configure -w the.ghc.version.I.want' to set it up. |
| 00:54:23 | <koz_> | That error is a bit weird though - could you give the exact error message? |
| 00:54:44 | <proofofme> | that was the extent of it; it was only one line |
| 00:54:57 | <koz_> | OK, could you pastebin your cabal file? |
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| 00:56:11 | <proofofme> | one sec |
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| 00:57:39 | <proofofme> | `cat ~/.cabal/config`? |
| 00:57:46 | <koz_> | No, the cabal file of your project. |
| 00:58:05 | <koz_> | You shoudl have a whatever-you-named-your-project.cabal in your project folder. |
| 00:58:16 | <koz_> | That is typically referred to as 'a cabal file'. |
| 00:58:29 | <proofofme> | that was in the mysql haskell folder that I did this. I was trying to install the db driver |
| 00:58:46 | <koz_> | proofofme: mysql-haskell is a library. |
| 00:58:52 | <koz_> | You don't _install_ it, you depend on it. |
| 00:59:03 | <proofofme> | ah |
| 00:59:48 | <koz_> | You only install executables. |
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| 01:07:12 | <proofofme> | what's the proper way to add a library, like Text.HTML.Scalpel, for example? |
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| 01:11:47 | <lemmih> | proofofme: First you find the name of the library that has that module. |
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| 01:12:21 | <proofofme> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/scalpel |
| 01:12:45 | <lemmih> | proofofme: Good. Add 'scalpel' to the list of 'build-depends' in your cabal file. |
| 01:13:19 | <proofofme> | I don't have a cabal file in the project yet ... It's just an hs file for now |
| 01:13:24 | <proofofme> | I can create one |
| 01:13:44 | <proofofme> | `cabal init` |
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| 01:17:28 | <proofofme> | cabal init didn't create the file hmmm |
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| 01:20:01 | <monochrom> | "cabal init" creates a lot of files silently. You'll have to do an "ls" and explore around. |
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| 01:21:09 | <lemmih> | proofofme: You can also just do 'cabal v1-install scalpel'. That will make the library globally available. |
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| 01:27:04 | <proofofme> | it's installing successfully so far :) |
| 01:28:04 | <cohn> | I'm playing around with the Text.CSV module. Hopefully this is an easy one: how can I get the "head" of the CSV data (the column names)? |
| 01:28:15 | <cohn> | when I do this: dat <- parseCSVFromFile "foo.csv" |
| 01:28:28 | <cohn> | the result has this type: dat :: Either parsec-3.1.14.0:Text.Parsec.Error.ParseError CSV |
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| 01:28:55 | <cohn> | so it's wrapped in an "Either"... just need to get the Right value. |
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| 01:31:23 | <proofofme> | pattern matching and `case` is my best guess. I'm pretty novice though ... |
| 01:32:33 | <proofofme> | https://stackoverflow.com/questions/46944347/how-to-get-value-from-either Does this help? |
| 01:33:05 | <cohn> | yep, thanks proofofme! |
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| 01:34:50 | <proofofme> | apparently, you can use `fromRight` as well, but that can come with some issues, if not accounted for. I used `fromJust` to unwrap a Maybe from an IO monad to get to the [String] beneath yesterday. Took some time to figure it out lol |
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| 01:38:17 | <ski> | proofofme : probably better to handle the error case explicitly .. unless maybe if you're really sure it can't happen |
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| 01:39:01 | <ski> | (but even then, it can be better to have an explicit pattern-match, rather than `fromJust',`fromRight',`head',`tail', since with those, you don't get a location if things go south) |
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| 01:39:19 | <cohn> | crikey... not woring |
| 01:39:22 | <proofofme> | so you would use `case` and pattern matching for that just by default, yeah? |
| 01:39:23 | <cohn> | *working |
| 01:40:24 | <proofofme> | cohn, let me see if I can get the same thing working on my end |
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| 01:41:14 | <ski> | proofofme : you could use `Right x = ...' in a `let' or where. or apply `\(Right x) -> x' to the result |
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| 01:41:33 | <cohn> | for the curious: https://pastebin.com/MYixX2vp |
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| 01:43:46 | <cohn> | this is what frustrates me about Haskell. It's easy to pick up the basics of the language but when it comes time to use library modules, it's a PITA. |
| 01:44:14 | <proofofme> | what is `dat`? |
| 01:44:23 | <lemmih> | cohn: Your problem is with static typing, though, not libraries. |
| 01:44:28 | hackage | churros 0.1.0.3 - Channel/Arrow based streaming computation library. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/churros-0.1.0.3 (LyndonMaydwell) |
| 01:45:04 | <lemmih> | cohn: What's the type of your expression? |
| 01:45:18 | <cohn> | proofofme: it's the result of reading the CSV file |
| 01:45:25 | <cohn> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/csv-0.1.2/docs/Text-CSV.html |
| 01:45:26 | <proofofme> | ah |
| 01:45:37 | <cohn> | lemmih: I would agree |
| 01:45:43 | <ski> | cohn : probably `head d' doesn't have type `String' |
| 01:46:24 | <lemmih> | cohn: Static typing is not optional in Haskell. You just gotta bite the bullet and always keep types in mind. |
| 01:46:39 | <jchia> | Why is there a head fold but no 'tail' in Control.Foldl? Is a tail old that hard to define properly? |
| 01:46:45 | <ski> | cohn : do you know what you want to happen/do, in the error case ? |
| 01:46:59 | <cohn> | so, `dat <- parseCSVFromFile "foo.csv"` |
| 01:47:14 | <cohn> | ski: just print an error message. |
| 01:47:20 | <ski> | what is `CSV' ? |
| 01:47:27 | <ski> | a type synonym ? |
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| 01:47:39 | <cohn> | yes |
| 01:47:45 | <ski> | cohn : and abort the program, or not ? |
| 01:47:48 | <lemmih> | type CSV = [[String]] |
| 01:47:51 | <ski> | ok |
| 01:48:15 | <cohn> | ski: I'm playing around in GHCi, so no need to exit. : ) |
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| 01:48:57 | <ski> | cohn : yes, but i'm asking you what you want your program to do, when there's a parse error |
| 01:49:09 | <cohn> | just print an error message |
| 01:49:11 | <ski> | should it continue processing, somehow ? |
| 01:49:13 | <ski> | or just stop ? |
| 01:49:24 | <cohn> | yes, just stop and print an error message |
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| 01:49:39 | <ski> | then call `error' in the `Left' parameter case for `either' |
| 01:50:02 | <ski> | (that will also fix this type mismatch error) |
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| 01:50:36 | <cohn> | whoa! that worked! thanks, ski! |
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| 01:50:43 | <ski> | because |
| 01:50:47 | <ski> | @type error |
| 01:50:48 | <lambdabot> | [Char] -> a |
| 01:51:03 | <ski> | `error' promises that its return value will be of any type `a' that the caller would like |
| 01:51:21 | <ski> | (this works, because `error' doesn't return a value, instead it aborts computation) |
| 01:52:00 | <ski> | cohn : btw, you can simplify ("eta-reduce") `\d -> head d', to just `head' |
| 01:52:01 | <cohn> | ah, okay. so because I didn't use `error`, the computation didn't abort, which caused the type mismatch message in my paste? |
| 01:52:13 | <ski> | (but possibly you want to put more code into that alternative ..) |
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| 01:52:19 | <ski> | yes, cohn |
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| 01:52:39 | <ski> | it tried to check that the result type of both "branches" was the same .. and they weren't |
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| 01:53:12 | <cohn> | ok, so... |
| 01:53:16 | <cohn> | @type either |
| 01:53:18 | <lambdabot> | (a -> c) -> (b -> c) -> Either a b -> c |
| 01:53:35 | <cohn> | so the type of 'c' was different? |
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| 01:55:11 | <cohn> | and yes, it works with eta reduction: `either (\err -> error "Didn't work") head dat` |
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| 01:57:47 | <cohn> | thanks everyone! |
| 01:58:22 | <proofofme> | main = allDivs >>= (\x -> mapM_ print (fromJust x)) |
| 01:58:50 | <proofofme> | how would you rewrite the fromJust portion? I've been trying to do pattern matching but get a mismatched type error |
| 01:58:51 | <Axman6> | formJust is a code smell |
| 01:59:01 | <Axman6> | what have you tried? |
| 01:59:40 | <proofofme> | https://pastebin.com/HYHRj4PY |
| 01:59:47 | <ski> | main = maybe (putStrLn "Oups !") (mapM_ print) =<< allDivs -- one way. you could also use a `case', e.g. |
| 01:59:56 | <Axman6> | main = do {divs <- allDivs; case divs of Nothing -> <handle error case>; Just x -> do <things with x> } |
| 02:00:27 | ski | can't recall whether proofofme's seen `do' yet |
| 02:00:47 | <proofofme> | very briefly ... not an expert |
| 02:00:48 | <ski> | main = do divs <- allDivs |
| 02:00:49 | <Axman6> | proofofme: what is the type oif handleMaybe? |
| 02:00:56 | <ski> | case divs of |
| 02:01:01 | <ski> | Nothing -> <handle error case> |
| 02:01:07 | <ski> | Just x -> do <things with x> |
| 02:01:15 | Axman6 | notes that's the correct spelling of the Australian "of" |
| 02:02:13 | <proofofme> | type is [Div] | Nothing, right? |
| 02:02:23 | <proofofme> | data Div = Div String deriving (Show, Eq) |
| 02:02:49 | <Axman6> | doesn;'t sound right to me, | isn't a thing in types |
| 02:03:06 | <Axman6> | "" looks like a String to me though |
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| 02:08:01 | <Axman6> | proofofme: you should start by adding a type signature to handleMaybe, that should help you get your thoughts in order |
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| 02:14:22 | <cohn> | lemmih: can you recommend any good resources on types besides the Typeclassopedia? |
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| 02:20:27 | hackage | clckwrks 0.26.2 - A secure, reliable content management system (CMS) and blogging platform https://hackage.haskell.org/package/clckwrks-0.26.2 (JeremyShaw) |
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| 02:24:29 | <proofofme> | `main = maybe (putStrLn "Error") (mapM_ print) =<< allDivs` this line ended up working |
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| 02:27:20 | <Axman6> | do you understand it though? I still think you should do what I suggested above |
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| 02:27:50 | <Axman6> | because I have a strong feeling you wrote handleMaybe without understanding why it compiled |
| 02:28:10 | <Axman6> | and it was not doing hwat you intended it to do |
| 02:28:32 | <proofofme> | I understand the maybe function. I was returning the wrong type, yeah? |
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| 02:29:27 | <Axman6> | for a hint about what type handleMaybe should have, in the code you had before, change it from main = allDivs >>= (\x -> mapM_ print (handleMaybe x)) main = allDivs >>= (\x -> mapM_ print (_handleMaybe x)) and let the compiler tell you |
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| 02:30:33 | <Axman6> | "I was returning the wrong type" is almost always the answer to why something didn't compile, but you have to understand what types you expect to be returning (and accepting) to be able to do something with that fact |
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| 02:32:20 | <proofofme> | Found hole: _handleMaybe :: Maybe [Div] -> t0 a0 |
| 02:32:20 | <proofofme> | Where: ‘t0’ is an ambiguous type variable |
| 02:32:20 | <proofofme> | ‘a0’ is an ambiguous type variable |
| 02:32:22 | <proofofme> | Or perhaps ‘_handleMaybe’ is mis-spelled, or not in scope |
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| 02:33:14 | <Axman6> | hmm, slightly less heklpful now mapM_ has a more general type than it used to. read `t0 a0` as [a] |
| 02:33:20 | <proofofme> | Couldn't match type ‘Div’ with ‘Char’ |
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| 02:33:33 | <proofofme> | this is when I use it without the `_` |
| 02:33:59 | <Axman6> | yep, so your function in the Nothing case returns a String, which is [Char], but you really wanted to return a [Div] |
| 02:34:29 | <proofofme> | oh! I see |
| 02:35:10 | <proofofme> | trying to fix it now ... |
| 02:35:37 | <Axman6> | uh, also, you had ... Just x -> return x, which means you're actually using some monad, which you probably didn't mean to, you probably wanted Just x -> x; Nothing -> <something that is also of tyoe [Div]> |
| 02:35:47 | <Axman6> | :t return |
| 02:35:49 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => a -> m a |
| 02:36:13 | <Axman6> | our return is not the same as everyone else's return |
| 02:36:20 | <proofofme> | so exclude the return |
| 02:36:41 | <proofofme> | compiled! |
| 02:36:43 | <proofofme> | makes sense |
| 02:37:00 | <proofofme> | handleMaybe x = case x of |
| 02:37:00 | <proofofme> | Just val -> val |
| 02:37:00 | <proofofme> | Nothing -> [Div ""] |
| 02:37:03 | <proofofme> | I used that |
| 02:37:12 | <Axman6> | is there a simpler way to make a [Div]? |
| 02:37:42 | <Axman6> | how can we construct lists in Haskell (hint, there are two answers, according to the definition of lists) |
| 02:37:42 | <proofofme> | hmm how? |
| 02:37:52 | <Axman6> | @src [] |
| 02:37:52 | <lambdabot> | data [] a = [] | a : [a] |
| 02:37:53 | <proofofme> | cons |
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| 02:38:20 | <proofofme> | use data? |
| 02:38:33 | <Axman6> | if I say to you "I need a list of Wombles", and you don't have any Wombles, can you give me a list of Wombles? |
| 02:38:49 | <proofofme> | I can give [], yeah? |
| 02:38:54 | <Axman6> | yep |
| 02:38:58 | hackage | clckwrks 0.26.2.1 - A secure, reliable content management system (CMS) and blogging platform https://hackage.haskell.org/package/clckwrks-0.26.2.1 (JeremyShaw) |
| 02:39:09 | <Axman6> | since [] doesn't need any Wombles |
| 02:39:22 | <proofofme> | handleMaybe x = case x of |
| 02:39:23 | <proofofme> | Just val -> val |
| 02:39:23 | <proofofme> | Nothing -> [] |
| 02:39:27 | <proofofme> | like that, yeah? |
| 02:39:32 | <Axman6> | what's the type of that function? |
| 02:39:42 | <Axman6> | looks good, but it;s only half the story! |
| 02:40:40 | <proofofme> | handleMaybe :: Maybe [Div] -> [Div] |
| 02:41:36 | <Axman6> | looks good to me (though, that's a much more specific type that that function actually needs - do you know what its most general type is?) |
| 02:42:24 | <proofofme> | handleMaybe :: Maybe [a] -> [a] |
| 02:42:34 | <Axman6> | noice, nailed it |
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| 02:42:42 | <proofofme> | why generalize it? |
| 02:42:53 | <dsal> | Why write special code for every special case? :) |
| 02:43:02 | <proofofme> | ha good point |
| 02:43:18 | <dsal> | @hoogle Maybe [a] -> [a] |
| 02:43:19 | <lambdabot> | Prelude concat :: Foldable t => t [a] -> [a] |
| 02:43:19 | <lambdabot> | Data.List concat :: Foldable t => t [a] -> [a] |
| 02:43:19 | <lambdabot> | Data.Foldable concat :: Foldable t => t [a] -> [a] |
| 02:43:22 | <Axman6> | it's more useful then, I can use it on my Maybe [Womble] without having to write it myself, thansk for the useful function! |
| 02:43:55 | <proofofme> | I contributed to the commons! |
| 02:43:56 | <Axman6> | % :t concat @Maybe |
| 02:43:57 | <yahb> | Axman6: Maybe [a] -> [a] |
| 02:43:58 | hackage | clckwrks-theme-bootstrap 0.4.2.4 - simple bootstrap based template for clckwrks https://hackage.haskell.org/package/clckwrks-theme-bootstrap-0.4.2.4 (JeremyShaw) |
| 02:44:11 | <Axman6> | damn, looks like someone beat you to it! |
| 02:44:44 | <proofofme> | XD |
| 02:44:53 | <dsal> | Notice that the same thing you'd use for `[[a]] -> [a]` also works for `Maybe [a] -> [a]` (and tons of other foldables) |
| 02:46:01 | <Axman6> | you mean, even my OWN foldables? :mindblown: |
| 02:46:27 | <proofofme> | guys brb. I must hunt for food. I will be back soon. thanks^1000000 |
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| 02:46:44 | <dsal> | I caught a pomegranate today. |
| 02:46:50 | <Axman6> | > a^1000000 |
| 02:46:52 | <lambdabot> | a * a * (a * a) * (a * a * (a * a)) * (a * a * (a * a) * (a * a * (a * a))) ... |
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| 02:47:24 | <dsal> | Is that a Gigafonzee? |
| 02:47:43 | <Axman6> | > let thanks = var "thanks" in thanks^1000000 |
| 02:47:45 | <lambdabot> | thanks * thanks * (thanks * thanks) * (thanks * thanks * (thanks * thanks)) ... |
| 02:48:17 | <dsal> | That library is kind of magic. |
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| 02:48:39 | <Axman6> | nah, it's simple... simple-reflect XD |
| 02:50:39 | <monochrom> | > 1^10 :: Expr |
| 02:50:42 | <lambdabot> | 1 * 1 * (1 * 1) * (1 * 1 * (1 * 1)) * (1 * 1) |
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| 02:51:13 | <Axman6> | > reduction (1^10) |
| 02:51:16 | <lambdabot> | [1 * 1 * (1 * 1) * (1 * 1 * (1 * 1)) * (1 * 1),1 * (1 * 1) * (1 * 1 * (1 * 1... |
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| 02:51:22 | <monochrom> | It's very dumb, like some kind of FreeNum. |
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| 02:53:49 | <monochrom> | > (-0)^10 :: |
| 02:53:52 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:12: error: |
| 02:53:52 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:12: error: |
| 02:53:52 | <lambdabot> | parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets) |
| 02:53:55 | <monochrom> | > (-0)^10 :: Expr |
| 02:53:57 | <lambdabot> | negate 0 * negate 0 * (negate 0 * negate 0) * (negate 0 * negate 0 * (negate... |
| 02:54:05 | <monochrom> | I didn't expect that to be that dumb. :) |
| 02:54:57 | <monochrom> | You could imagine that it merely uses an AST, and so the most sophisticated code is in the Show instance. |
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| 04:54:26 | <proofofme> | `cabal install mysql-haskell` fails for me |
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| 05:34:46 | <yushyin> | a bit more information would be needed to help you e.g. a log file |
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| 05:58:28 | hackage | longshot 0.1.0.5 - Fast Brute-force search using parallelism https://hackage.haskell.org/package/longshot-0.1.0.5 (thyeem) |
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| 06:29:35 | <siraben> | Is there an elegant way to implement hygienic macros? |
| 06:30:13 | <Axman6> | I don't know what defined hygenic macros, but there is a new way to write type safe Template Haskell in GHC |
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| 06:30:18 | <Axman6> | defines* |
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| 06:50:06 | <kuribas> | siraben: generics |
| 06:50:27 | <siraben> | Oh I should clarify, I meant I'm implementing a Lisp |
| 06:50:37 | <siraben> | and want to implement hygienic macros |
| 06:50:59 | <suzu_> | macros that wash their hands often |
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| 06:53:11 | <kuribas> | do they wear masks? |
| 06:53:34 | <suzu_> | yes, safety first |
| 06:53:45 | <kuribas> | siraben: have a look at scheme |
| 06:54:02 | <u-ou> | what about macros individual freedom? |
| 06:54:52 | <siraben> | kuribas: Yeah, https://github.com/siraben/r5rs-denot |
| 06:55:06 | <siraben> | It just that, the hygienic expansion algorithms I'm looking at are quite stateful |
| 06:56:09 | <kuribas> | siraben: of course it's stateful, you need to create new identifiers. |
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| 06:58:10 | <suzu_> | ok i just looked up these macros |
| 06:58:34 | <suzu_> | it means they don't pollute / consume / shadow any bindings in scope at macro-use time? |
| 06:58:50 | <siraben> | suzu_: Yes |
| 06:59:14 | <suzu_> | they're guaranteed an internal consistent binding scope by the compiler in some way? |
| 06:59:27 | <suzu_> | and you want this in a lisp interpreter? |
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| 07:00:57 | <siraben> | Yes. I'm thinking of implementing http://3e8.org/pub/pdf-t1/macros_that_work.pdf |
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| 07:02:57 | <suzu_> | idk seems like a compiler design question than a haskell thing |
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| 07:05:37 | <siraben> | Yeah |
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| 07:46:57 | hackage | ttn 0.2.0.0 - Things Tracker Network JSON Types https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ttn-0.2.0.0 (srk) |
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| 08:00:03 | <bahamas> | does anyone have an example of a function in the prelude that uses pattern matching in the definition? and another example that uses guards? |
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| 08:04:09 | <hc> | bahamas: pattern matching: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.0.0/docs/src/GHC.List.html#head |
| 08:04:46 | <hc> | guards: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.0.0/docs/src/GHC.List.html#dropWhile |
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| 08:11:15 | <bahamas> | hc: thank you! |
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| 08:14:02 | <bahamas> | hc: interesting definition for "take". it uses a guard without `otherwise`, but it doesn't seem to be a problem |
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| 08:17:51 | <hc> | bahamas: it isn't a problem because of the ordering of patterns |
| 08:18:22 | <hc> | bahamas: if the list is empty, #2 will match regardless of the value of n, unless n<=0 in which case the 2nd parameter won't be evaluated and thus an empty list wouldn't be a problem here either |
| 08:18:44 | <hc> | the 3rd case will only be attempted to match if the list isn't empty |
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| 08:22:05 | <bahamas> | hc: yes. btw, an exclamation mark in front of a function argument forces the evaluation, right? |
| 08:24:37 | <hc> | bahamas: I think so; at least that's the case in Data declarations |
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| 08:25:45 | <dminuoso> | bahamas: https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/glasgow_exts.html#bang-patterns-informal |
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| 08:31:02 | <merijn> | bahamas: btw, if all guards of a pattern fail it simply "falls through" to the next pattern of the function (similar to failing pattern matches) which can be useful in places :) |
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| 08:34:52 | <bahamas> | merijn: right. I had forgotten about that. `otherwise` is a catch all |
| 08:35:08 | <bahamas> | dminuoso: thanks! |
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| 08:35:27 | <maerwald> | @src otherwise |
| 08:35:27 | <lambdabot> | otherwise = True |
| 08:35:49 | <bahamas> | dminuoso: oh, so it's an extension. it's not part of the report |
| 08:36:09 | <dminuoso> | Right. |
| 08:36:19 | <dminuoso> | bahamas: Roughly, think it to be equivalent to `seq` |
| 08:36:29 | <dminuoso> | Perhaps, in hindsight, we should have had bang patterns instead of seq. |
| 08:36:57 | <dminuoso> | The ergonomics of bang patterns are much better. :) |
| 08:37:54 | <dminuoso> | So bang patterns are just syntactic sugar around Haskell2010, rather than introducing additional semantics. |
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| 08:38:16 | <bahamas> | I see |
| 08:39:12 | <dminuoso> | Then we could have defined `seq !l r = r` |
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| 08:41:18 | <bahamas> | btw, judging from this file I assume there's an unwritten rule to put a fixity declaration at the top of a module? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.0.0/docs/src/GHC.Base.html#. |
| 08:41:57 | <Taneb> | bahamas: differnet libraries do it differently, I prefer to keep it close to the operator |
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| 08:42:25 | <Taneb> | If you're defining a lot of operators with a lot of different fixities it can make things clearer how they relate if the fixity declarations are together, though |
| 08:42:57 | <dminuoso> | Though, you can quickly extract the latter knowledge by just `grep infix foo.hs` |
| 08:42:58 | hackage | Z-Data 0.1.6.1 - Array, vector and text https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Z-Data-0.1.6.1 (winterland) |
| 08:43:22 | <bahamas> | ok. it makes sense |
| 08:43:24 | <dminuoso> | Whereas relating a fixity declaration to its definition is not as easy, so I'd say keeping fixity declarations close to the definition is more useful |
| 08:44:15 | <merijn> | bahamas: No, I mean even in the absense of "otherwise" |
| 08:44:40 | <merijn> | bahamas: I'd say "put fixity near the definition", tbh |
| 08:45:36 | <dminuoso> | But really at the end, code convention is flexible and should fit your needs. |
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| 08:46:18 | <nshepperd2> | I'd always put it right next to the type signature |
| 08:46:28 | <dminuoso> | nshepperd2: with a semicolon? |
| 08:46:35 | <dminuoso> | Or do you mean above/below? |
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| 08:47:13 | <nshepperd2> | err, above |
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| 08:47:46 | <nshepperd2> | is a semicolon legal? that would be interesting |
| 08:48:09 | <dminuoso> | GHCi accepts it at least |
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| 08:48:48 | <dminuoso> | % infixr 6 `f`; f = f |
| 08:48:48 | <yahb> | dminuoso: |
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| 08:49:00 | <dminuoso> | % f :: Int; infixr 6 `f`; f = f |
| 08:49:00 | <yahb> | dminuoso: |
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| 08:49:38 | <bahamas> | merijn: what do you mean by "I mean even in the absense of `otherwise`"? |
| 08:50:06 | dminuoso | wonders whether merijn forgot to press enter on some message |
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| 08:55:07 | <merijn> | Nah, I got distracted by work |
| 08:56:08 | <merijn> | bahamas: I meant that this is perfectly fine: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/bYa6W8My |
| 08:56:21 | <merijn> | If the 2 guards fail, it will simply fall through to the 2nd pattern |
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| 09:01:13 | <dminuoso> | Useful to know, you can define let bindings in guards. :) |
| 09:01:26 | <dminuoso> | Took me a while to figure that one out |
| 09:01:45 | <merijn> | dminuoso: Or, you just use pattern guards :p |
| 09:01:57 | <merijn> | Pattern guards are the most underrated feature of Haskell2010 |
| 09:02:48 | <kuribas> | merijn: I found a solution for the json representation problem. I made a DSL for rewriting the JSON before parsing it using generics. |
| 09:03:09 | <kuribas> | https://gist.github.com/kuribas/9826b1fb9f2907a5c40baff1d7bbcb83 |
| 09:03:18 | <kuribas> | it's typesafe |
| 09:03:20 | <merijn> | Not sure I wanna click that xD |
| 09:03:55 | <dminuoso> | merijn: pattern guards are more limited though |
| 09:04:04 | <merijn> | dminuoso: How so? |
| 09:04:13 | <dminuoso> | Can you set up recursive bindings with them? |
| 09:04:21 | <merijn> | ah...probably not? |
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| 09:05:58 | <dminuoso> | merijn: And at the same time, why would I use `Foo r <- bar` over `let Foo r = bar`? |
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| 09:06:28 | <dminuoso> | Non-simple bindings are already part of Haskel2010 |
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| 09:07:02 | <dminuoso> | I mean, pattern guards have their use for when you want to *filter* out based on non-match |
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| 09:07:10 | <dminuoso> | but they dont seem like a good alternative to let just for the sake of it |
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| 09:07:30 | <bahamas> | merijn: do you have an example of pattern guards usage? |
| 09:08:14 | <dminuoso> | bahamas: https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/0da790d5ac72f0cfab1e451a306ca064 |
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| 09:10:48 | <kuribas> | merijn: it's pretty easy |
| 09:11:09 | <kuribas> | merijn: you give the destination field, and the path to the origin field. |
| 09:11:26 | <kuribas> | merijn: and the destination field is typechecked against the given type. |
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| 09:11:41 | <bahamas> | dminuoso: thanks |
| 09:11:56 | <kuribas> | merijn: and there is a Maybe variant for possible empty fields. |
| 09:12:16 | <kuribas> | merijn: and the generator does the opposite operation. |
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| 09:13:07 | <kuribas> | merijn: here is the implementation: https://gist.github.com/kuribas/5c617ecf025ccb37467a23556cbe963e |
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| 09:14:33 | <kuribas> | merijn: and you simply apply the transformation before/after parsing/toJSON |
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| 09:25:23 | <kuribas> | merijn: this substantially reduces the amount of boilerplate required when writing manual instances. |
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| 09:25:56 | <kuribas> | merijn: and also solves the problem that manual instances aren't guaranteed to be consistend, when going to and from JSON. |
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| 09:28:09 | <kuribas> | I am not saying this solves every usecase, for everyone, but it works great for ours. |
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| 09:52:58 | hackage | mu-schema 0.3.1.0 - Format-independent schemas for serialization https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mu-schema-0.3.1.0 (AlejandroSerrano) |
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| 12:48:12 | <gentauro> | leaving `intero` and reaching `HIE` which seems to be another `historical artifact`. So the way to go forward is `haskell-language-server`? https://github.com/haskell/haskell-language-server |
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| 12:49:38 | <geekosaur> | pretty much, yes. rather than N different approaches everyone has converged on haskell-language-server |
| 12:50:06 | <dminuoso> | Well. Some, others stick with the simpler solution of `ghcid` |
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| 12:50:30 | <gentauro> | geekosaur: I will give it a try https://github.com/haskell/haskell-language-server#using-haskell-language-server-with-emacs :) |
| 12:50:41 | <dminuoso> | You get some good portion of the functionality, but in a future proof and minimalistic way. |
| 12:50:57 | <siraben> | Does anyone know if there's a way to avoid having to pass JSNoAnnot to Language.JavaScript.Parser.AST's constructors? |
| 12:50:57 | <siraben> | https://github.com/siraben/lisp-to-js/blob/master/src/Translation.hs#L17-L28 |
| 12:50:59 | <dminuoso> | (Dunno if you will ever convince me to move from ghcid to haskell-language-server) |
| 12:51:09 | <siraben> | There's a generic instance but not sure if it can help me make unannotated trees |
| 12:51:23 | <Zetagon> | ghcid is pretty nice :) |
| 12:51:42 | <siraben> | (also, is Language.JavaScript the best way to work with JS ASTs in Haskell?) |
| 12:51:55 | <fendor> | geekosaur, also, there is a nice emacs plugin: https://gitlab.com/tseenshe/haskell-tng.el |
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| 12:52:45 | <gentauro> | dminuoso: I was pretty happy with `intero` but the GH-banner "No Maintenance Intended" helps me "moving on" (sadly) |
| 12:55:57 | hackage | vulkan 3.6.10 - Bindings to the Vulkan graphics API. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vulkan-3.6.10 (jophish) |
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| 13:05:05 | <merijn> | gentauro: Basically all the tool contributors have (thankfully) converged on one platform to collaborate and work together (hls), which is good |
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| 13:05:42 | <gentauro> | merijn: yeah, and I can see it's under the `https://github.com/haskell/` group on GH which is nice |
| 13:06:06 | <gentauro> | hopefully it's not a painfull transition and hopefully I can get up and running fast :) |
| 13:06:35 | <merijn> | gentauro: I'm still on ghcide (hls builds on top of that) and it's working pretty well |
| 13:07:05 | <gentauro> | merijn: roger that. Good to hear that there are alternatives to fall back to ;) |
| 13:07:15 | <geekosaur> | part of the reason they converged on hls is that there's a common language server platform that's cross-language they can integrate with |
| 13:07:17 | <gentauro> | but I will give `hls` a try and see how it goes |
| 13:09:20 | <fendor> | if hls does not work for you, chances are, neither will ghcide |
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| 13:16:31 | <gentauro> | fendor: `Error when running Shake build system` ;) |
| 13:16:34 | <gentauro> | good to know |
| 13:16:59 | <fendor> | lol. I have never seen that one. When does that happen? |
| 13:17:29 | <gentauro> | `stack ./install.hs hls-8.6.5` |
| 13:17:35 | <gentauro> | and `stack ./install.hs hls` |
| 13:18:00 | <gentauro> | fendor: I will do a bit of `debugging` to see if it works (or not) then I will update with a status ;) |
| 13:18:57 | <fendor> | I am trying as well. Personally, I only use cabal for installation, but that worked well and should be the same as stack... |
| 13:19:24 | <Taneb> | Well, I finally got around to trying haskell-language-server |
| 13:19:36 | <Taneb> | Been a while since I tried to use an IDE in, like, any language |
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| 13:21:41 | <fendor> | oh well, nixos and stack do not really work together... |
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| 13:24:12 | <linuxnoob> | haskell is terrible. |
| 13:26:23 | <Uniaika> | aren't we all |
| 13:26:33 | <linuxnoob> | haskell is shit. |
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| 13:28:03 | <ski> | all languages have bad parts |
| 13:28:26 | <ski> | do you have some specific thing in mind you wanted to discuss ? |
| 13:29:06 | <merijn> | Man...why engage such blatantly trolling |
| 13:29:15 | <merijn> | s/trolling/obvious trolling |
| 13:30:54 | <dminuoso> | ski: My language has no bad parts, I designed it particularly that way. |
| 13:31:10 | <linuxnoob> | thats what she said. |
| 13:31:54 | <dminuoso> | I mean consider a language specification that starts off with "This language has no bad parts", then by definition it can't be bad. |
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| 13:32:10 | <linuxnoob> | its shit lang thats all |
| 13:32:24 | <linuxnoob> | and its also MANGLED |
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| 13:34:10 | <ski> | seems like you don't have any specific criticism, then .. ? |
| 13:34:25 | <linuxnoob> | i get mangled output |
| 13:35:10 | <merijn> | I'm putting $10 on "trying to use Haskell on Arch and blaming Haskell for Arch's brokenness" |
| 13:35:13 | <merijn> | Any takers? |
| 13:35:27 | <ski> | linuxnoob : what, specifically, did you try ? |
| 13:35:31 | <maerwald> | raise to 100$ |
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| 13:38:53 | <cohn> | merijn: happily using Haskell on Arch. Using `ghcup` of course... :D |
| 13:39:00 | <merijn> | cohn: Of course |
| 13:39:10 | <merijn> | But can't blame beginners for trusting the distro package manager |
| 13:39:12 | <maerwald> | as you should! |
| 13:40:27 | <cohn> | in my experience, many programming languages are much more pleasant when you don't use the distro's package manager to manage the language's packages, libraries, etc... |
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| 13:40:44 | <maerwald> | only exception is C/C++ |
| 13:41:00 | <cohn> | for example, I switched to using the "pipenv" utility for Python and have never looked back. |
| 13:41:05 | <merijn> | That's because those don't have one :p |
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| 13:41:28 | <merijn> | cohn: I'd give a kidney to get v2-build for python over all it's pip and virtualenv BS :( |
| 13:41:30 | <dminuoso> | I have a file format that Im parsing with megaparsec. The file itself has `include` stanzas, are there combinators to fork off new parsers while running from inside one? |
| 13:41:46 | <maerwald> | merijn: you can go full nix! |
| 13:42:02 | <merijn> | dminuoso: That's just "liftIO + join"? :p |
| 13:42:23 | <dminuoso> | merijn: No its not, it's more like runParserT and connecting error output correctly |
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| 13:42:35 | <merijn> | dminuoso: I'd just two stage it |
| 13:42:43 | <merijn> | Handle all includes first, then parse the result |
| 13:43:17 | <dminuoso> | Mmmm, that complicates the context information on diagnostics. :( |
| 13:43:19 | <cohn> | merijn: yea, true. But even with C++, I find that using Eigin (http://eigen.tuxfamily.org/) is nicer than (and more current) than what apt/yum/pacman gives |
| 13:43:48 | <merijn> | dminuoso: why? |
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| 13:45:26 | <dminuoso> | merijn: line numbers will be all wrong |
| 13:45:47 | <cohn> | merijn: yes, it'd be *really* nice to have a real build system for Python. There are a few templates out there at least. |
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| 13:48:19 | <merijn> | dminuoso: Easily fixed by inserting some metadata |
| 13:48:35 | <merijn> | "easily" ;) |
| 13:48:38 | <dminuoso> | Forking off new parsers seems more easy than that |
| 13:48:42 | <cohn> | also, and hopefully I don't get too many sharp, pointy objects thrown at me for saying this, but VS Code has some nice dev container templates for various languages. Sadly, no Stack or Cabal stuff. :( |
| 13:49:10 | <dminuoso> | But to be fair, for my usecase, I can actually go with a 2-pass solution |
| 13:49:23 | <dminuoso> | This is just a haskell code generator |
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| 13:49:40 | <dminuoso> | Im the sole user of that code generator... |
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| 14:02:57 | <kuribas> | gentauro: I am trying HLS with HIE, but I keep comming back to emacs |
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| 14:09:02 | <merijn> | phadej: Are there any project with a haskell-ci config file I can use as example? |
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| 14:17:28 | hackage | xmonad-dbus 0.1.0.0 - https://hackage.haskell.org/package/xmonad-dbus-0.1.0.0 (troydm) |
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| 14:44:14 | <dminuoso> | (a ~ Tokens s, IsString a, Eq a, Stream s, Ord e) => IsString (ParsecT e s m a) |
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| 14:44:20 | <dminuoso> | Wow, that one tripped me up. |
| 14:44:57 | <dminuoso> | At times, I wish I could limit the reach of OverloadedStrings. |
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| 14:46:07 | <merijn> | Word |
| 14:46:54 | <merijn> | phadej: Relatedly: Is there any reason why the --osx flag doesn't have a wildcard that adds a job for each GHC? |
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| 15:16:31 | <merijn> | heh |
| 15:16:41 | <merijn> | Why is GHC head in hvr's PPA 8.7? |
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| 15:20:52 | <merijn> | (incidentally, what happened to him, I haven't seen him in ages...) |
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| 15:39:49 | <maerwald> | sometimes rants on the mailing list, so probably just busy :p |
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| 15:41:38 | <merijn> | Ugh...Christ |
| 15:41:46 | <merijn> | Travis is so brittle and broken nowadays |
| 15:41:58 | <maerwald> | everyone is on github actions now |
| 15:42:12 | <merijn> | maerwald: haskell-ci doesn't have a backend yet and I haven't had the time to make one :p |
| 15:42:39 | <phadej> | merijn: 1) `haskell-ci dump-config`, 2) not really, and comments like maerwalds ^ really dismotivate to do anything to haskell-ci |
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| 15:42:54 | <phadej> | just use github actions |
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| 15:43:25 | <merijn> | phadej: I know about dump-config, but I'm not sure what the syntax of, e.g., the osx field looks like |
| 15:43:38 | <phadej> | try, the parser will yell atyou |
| 15:43:57 | <phadej> | aka. I don't really remember myself |
| 15:44:02 | <phadej> | probably whitespace separated tokens |
| 15:44:09 | <merijn> | phadej: Any objections to a PR that does "--osx *" or "--osx all" to just generate an OSX job for all the versions? |
| 15:44:49 | <phadej> | https://github.com/haskell-CI/haskell-ci/blob/d5d3da6823acbb207f35e06ab59f71c8822ee72c/cabal.haskell-ci#L76 |
| 15:44:57 | hackage | clckwrks-plugin-page 0.4.3.23 - support for CMS/Blogging in clckwrks https://hackage.haskell.org/package/clckwrks-plugin-page-0.4.3.23 (JeremyShaw) |
| 15:45:19 | <phadej> | merijn: if you also change it to use ghcup rather then haskell.futurice.com script |
| 15:45:26 | <phadej> | as ghcup has wider version support |
| 15:45:42 | <phadej> | ... at least for now, until maerwald's gets bored with it too :P |
| 15:45:57 | <maerwald> | ;/ |
| 15:46:14 | <merijn> | phadej: Incidentally, the ghc-head entry fetches ghc-head from hvr's PPA but that seems to still be 8.7? |
| 15:46:17 | <maerwald> | you can be sure I at least support alpine, so I don't have to use nix for static linking |
| 15:46:27 | <phadej> | merijn: Herbert didn't bother to rebuild it |
| 15:46:37 | <merijn> | That's what I guessed |
| 15:46:48 | <phadej> | I guess he found it busy work to keep track of GHC's build system changes |
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| 15:46:49 | <merijn> | Does ghcup support ghc-head? Probably not? |
| 15:46:57 | <maerwald> | you can install it yes |
| 15:47:01 | <merijn> | \o/ |
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| 15:47:19 | <merijn> | So maybe just rip out the PPA from haskell-ci entirely and just use ghcup always? |
| 15:47:33 | <maerwald> | ghcup install ghc -u 'https://gitlab.haskell.org/api/v4/projects/1/jobs/artifacts/master/raw/ghc-x86_64-fedora27-linux.tar.xz?job=validate-x86_64-linux-fedora27' head |
| 15:47:50 | <maerwald> | but there's a bug in ghc-pkg detection that requires you to *set* it as your active version |
| 15:48:08 | <merijn> | maerwald: In general or in this specific head? |
| 15:48:29 | <maerwald> | if you *know* the exact version, then you can use that instead of `head` |
| 15:48:31 | <phadej> | merijn: haskell-ci is originally Herbert's project. Feel free to fork it. |
| 15:48:41 | <phadej> | I don't think not using hvr-ppa is an option in haskell-ci |
| 15:48:49 | <maerwald> | merijn: https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs#custom-ghc-version-names |
| 15:48:52 | <merijn> | hmm |
| 15:49:08 | <tomjaguarpaw> | merijn: I'm not completely following the thread by I use Neil Mitchell's "neil" package for Travis CI. It works well for the basic use cases that I have. |
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| 15:49:31 | <merijn> | tomjaguarpaw: Haskell-CI works fine, it's travis that's not working well :p |
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| 15:50:13 | <phadej> | `neil` is tuned for Neils liking, haskell-ci maintainer occasionally listens for others ;) |
| 15:50:21 | <merijn> | phadej: I want to avoid forking/writing something from scratch as much as possible as I don't want to have to reinvent all your and hvr's work :p |
| 15:50:41 | <phadej> | merijn: then find out how to help herbert with his ppa |
| 15:50:56 | <phadej> | merijn: as far as I understood, packaging GHC is "not fun" |
| 15:51:08 | <merijn> | yeah |
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| 15:51:49 | <merijn> | Unfortunately that's the sorta thing it's hard to make time to improve until someone starts paying me to write Haskell... |
| 15:51:56 | <phadej> | in particular, hadrian is very very much not fun |
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| 15:52:22 | <merijn> | I'd love to spend more time on GHC/cabal-install/etc. :\ |
| 15:52:24 | <phadej> | it works for development like a charm, but in restricted build environments... |
| 15:53:04 | <phadej> | no-one pays me (nor herbert afaik) to work on e.g. haskell-ci |
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| 15:53:18 | <phadej> | so, nothing new. |
| 15:53:57 | <merijn> | I know, but I meant that I can sneak in some Haskell and minor PRs during work/free time, but getting familiar enough to do more comprehensive things is something I don't have time for atm |
| 15:54:04 | <tomjaguarpaw> | It's interesting you say hadrian isn't fun. I thought it was supposed to be the new, "fun" way. |
| 15:54:14 | <phadej> | tomjaguarpaw: it's fun for development |
| 15:54:21 | <merijn> | tomjaguarpaw: "development" and "packaging" are very different beasts :) |
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| 15:55:33 | <tomjaguarpaw> | Interesting. Is the makefile version better for packaging? |
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| 15:56:03 | <phadej> | it's not better, but its dependencies are easier to manage |
| 15:56:17 | <phadej> | e.g. hadrian have to be built itself, so you need to package that too |
| 15:56:29 | <phadej> | and hadrians dependencies don't come in ghc source distribution |
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| 15:58:36 | <phadej> | in fact, source distribution for 8.10.2 doesn't seem to contain hadrian at all |
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| 15:59:14 | <phadej> | I guess that [hadrian for packaging] is work which is not even started |
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| 16:07:28 | hackage | clckwrks-plugin-media 0.6.17 - media plugin for clckwrks https://hackage.haskell.org/package/clckwrks-plugin-media-0.6.17 (JeremyShaw) |
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| 16:14:49 | <siraben> | Is there a way to do pattern matching on raw bytestrings? |
| 16:14:50 | <siraben> | ViewPatterns? |
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| 16:16:51 | <merijn> | siraben: What's wrong with guards? |
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| 16:19:47 | <phadej> | foo "bar" = ... works for bytestrings with OverloadedStrings |
| 16:20:02 | <phadej> | but if you want to extract individual bytes then it's indeed trickier |
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| 16:31:27 | hackage | capnp 0.6.0.3 - Cap'n Proto for Haskell https://hackage.haskell.org/package/capnp-0.6.0.3 (isd) |
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| 17:05:27 | hackage | uniqueness-periods-vector-common 0.5.1.0 - Generalization of the dobutokO-poetry-general package functionality https://hackage.haskell.org/package/uniqueness-periods-vector-common-0.5.1.0 (OleksandrZhabenko) |
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| 17:12:27 | hackage | deferred-folds 0.9.11 - Abstractions over deferred folds https://hackage.haskell.org/package/deferred-folds-0.9.11 (NikitaVolkov) |
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| 17:19:28 | hackage | uniqueness-periods-vector-general 0.5.1.0 - Some kind of the optimization approach to data inner structure. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/uniqueness-periods-vector-general-0.5.1.0 (OleksandrZhabenko) |
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| 17:23:57 | hackage | uniqueness-periods-vector-properties 0.5.5.0 - Metrices for the maximum element for the uniqueness-periods-vector packages family. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/uniqueness-periods-vector-properties-0.5.5.0 (OleksandrZhabenko) |
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| 17:38:27 | hackage | uniqueness-periods-vector-examples 0.12.3.0 - Usage examples for the uniqueness-periods-vector series of packages https://hackage.haskell.org/package/uniqueness-periods-vector-examples-0.12.3.0 (OleksandrZhabenko) |
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| 17:44:39 | <z0> | if we do something like `f l = go l l where go (x:xs) (y:yy:ys) = x + yy + go xs ys` is haskell keeping a single l in memory with 2 pointers behind the scenes? |
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| 17:45:20 | <monochrom> | Yes |
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| 17:46:44 | <z0> | nice. thanks |
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| 17:48:33 | <z0> | whats a good resource on reasoning about performance in thinks like this? |
| 17:48:48 | <z0> | s/thinks/things |
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| 17:50:33 | <dsal> | Do you mean as to entirely copying a potentially infinite list? |
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| 17:51:38 | <dsal> | er, as opposed to. I don't quite understand what else it could do. |
| 17:52:03 | <phadej> | i'd rewrite that as f l = go 0 l l where go !acc (x:xs) (y:yy:ys) = go (acc + x + yy) xs ys |
| 17:52:11 | <phadej> | i.e. foldr to foldl' |
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| 17:52:58 | <phadej> | "whats a good resource on reasoning about performance in thinks like this?" - there's plenty of resources, e.g. https://www.well-typed.com/blog/2017/09/visualize-cbn/ |
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| 17:54:41 | <gentauro> | 16:02 < kuribas> gentauro: I am trying HLS with HIE, but I keep comming back to emacs |
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| 17:55:15 | <gentauro> | kuribas: I thought `hls` would work with `emacs` just like `intero` did. Still not working, but not giving up (yet) |
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| 17:55:57 | hackage | prolude 0.0.0.2 - ITProTV's custom prelude https://hackage.haskell.org/package/prolude-0.0.0.2 (saramuse) |
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| 18:13:00 | shapr | hops randomly |
| 18:13:04 | <shapr> | good afternoon #haskell ! |
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| 18:17:24 | <juri_> | shapr: hio. :) |
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| 18:17:41 | <shapr> | howdy juri_! You still scaddin' ? |
| 18:17:59 | <shapr> | I'm in the DC area for the new few years it seems, but you've left forever, right? |
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| 18:18:18 | <juri_> | shapr: indeed, on both counts. :) |
| 18:18:34 | <shapr> | well, too bad I didn't get to meet you when we were both in the same area |
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| 18:19:53 | <juri_> | watch talks, write code.. profit? :) |
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| 18:20:03 | <koz_> | juri_: Sounds delicious. |
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| 18:38:28 | hackage | unicode-transforms 0.3.7.1 - Unicode normalization https://hackage.haskell.org/package/unicode-transforms-0.3.7.1 (Bodigrim) |
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| 18:39:01 | <ezzieyguywuf> | I seem to recall reading that hledger doesn't work too great at tracking/managing investments, specificially stocks. I do that a bit in beancount today but even that's sort of a pain. Do you all know of any good, solid, FOSS tools that I can use for this? |
| 18:39:08 | <ezzieyguywuf> | I don't mind manually importing transactions etc. |
| 18:39:30 | <ezzieyguywuf> | also, this is "vaguely haskell related" due to hledger, but if this is more appropriate in #haskell-offtopic feel free to tell me so |
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| 19:10:13 | <maerwald> | the real question is: do you need blockchain? |
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| 19:31:53 | <ezzieyguywuf> | maerwald: I don't think so |
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| 19:32:20 | <ezzieyguywuf> | I have a bunch of money wrapped up in different securities and funds, and I want one centralized place where I can track their performance and figure out my allocations |
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| 20:06:16 | <untseac> | hello. is it me doing something really wrong or yesod uses a archaic LTS? |
| 20:06:37 | <c_wraith> | that would be surprising, as yesod is the main reason stack exists |
| 20:06:49 | <untseac> | hum that I didn't know |
| 20:07:27 | hackage | hwk 0.4 - Simple cli text processing with Haskell functions https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hwk-0.4 (JensPetersen) |
| 20:07:29 | <untseac> | so nobody likes stack anymore? |
| 20:07:31 | <hc> | true... yesod was pretty much unusable before stack :) |
| 20:07:46 | <c_wraith> | And the latest stackage LTS lists yesod |
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| 20:08:06 | hc | has the feeling that the growing dislike for stack is mostly political |
| 20:08:09 | <untseac> | ok so maybe the templates are just old but yesod itself is not |
| 20:08:15 | <c_wraith> | that's probable |
| 20:08:23 | <unclechu> | untseac: i like stack when i can’t use nix |
| 20:08:41 | <hc> | i was in a webinar with fp complete once and specifically (and innocently) asked for their thoughts about nixos/cabal and didn't get an answer :) |
| 20:08:42 | <c_wraith> | I don't like stack because it's extra complication that doesn't provide value for me. But I can see how it would be useful for others. |
| 20:08:46 | <untseac> | yeah I'm on arch and don't really want to bother with nix yet |
| 20:08:49 | <untseac> | yeah I'm on arch and don't really want to bother with nix yet unclechu |
| 20:08:56 | <untseac> | oops duplicate |
| 20:09:04 | <koz_> | https://www.stackage.org/lts-16.18/package/yesod-1.6.1.0 |
| 20:09:19 | <hc> | i for one wouldn't have dared to use haskell at my company without stack and the stability promise it bringe :) |
| 20:09:23 | <koz_> | 16.18 is pretty recent! |
| 20:09:24 | <c_wraith> | are you using matrix? Editing messages in matrix causes its IRC bridge to resend messages. |
| 20:09:40 | <untseac> | ok so it's probably just the templates |
| 20:09:52 | <koz_> | untseac: Stack templates right? |
| 20:09:57 | <untseac> | yeah |
| 20:10:04 | <koz_> | In my experience they are completely unusable garbage in the general sense. |
| 20:10:10 | <untseac> | it's on yesod webpage: https://www.yesodweb.com/page/quickstart |
| 20:10:19 | <koz_> | I literally had to roll my own using cookiecutter because of how utterly useless they were. |
| 20:10:22 | <untseac> | but they're using this usper old LTS |
| 20:10:30 | <koz_> | Both in terms of content and documentation. |
| 20:10:40 | <untseac> | which kind of made me not want to try yesod lol |
| 20:10:48 | <untseac> | I was already looking into alternativs |
| 20:10:56 | <koz_> | untseac: What're you trying to build? |
| 20:11:09 | <untseac> | just experimenting |
| 20:11:13 | <untseac> | nothing special |
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| 20:12:05 | <untseac> | yesod seems to be the most popular web framework in haskell right now |
| 20:12:13 | <untseac> | that's why I was trying first |
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| 20:12:53 | <untseac> | but all main web frameworks looks okay to me to be honest |
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| 20:13:12 | <davean> | yesod is definately the most *marketed* |
| 20:13:32 | <koz_> | davean: Interestingly enough, I had to bench yesod vs servant vs snap recently. |
| 20:13:32 | <untseac> | yeah might as well start with the most marketed |
| 20:13:42 | <koz_> | Yesod came out _by far_ behind the other two. |
| 20:13:48 | <davean> | koz_: oh of course |
| 20:14:01 | <koz_> | It also trips spurious GHC warnings with its TH. |
| 20:14:06 | <davean> | Of course it does |
| 20:14:28 | <koz_> | davean: You sound unsurprised. |
| 20:14:32 | <davean> | Entirely |
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| 20:14:35 | <koz_> | LOL |
| 20:14:44 | <davean> | I couldn't believe it wasn't that way |
| 20:14:45 | <koz_> | Good to know I wasn't wrong to be skeptical to my workmates. |
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| 20:15:46 | <untseac> | I finally have a good grasp and can handle haskell more or less easily. the most annoying part is that all these places try to teach monads and friends in a weird way when it's really simple. |
| 20:16:03 | <untseac> | but that's just me ranting as usual |
| 20:16:41 | <untseac> | codewars helped lol |
| 20:17:07 | <koz_> | I found a lot of practice helped. Weirdly, getting my first Haskell Job For Money made me improve almost instantly. |
| 20:17:23 | <untseac> | yeah practice is indeed the best way to learn haskell |
| 20:17:30 | <untseac> | that's what I found |
| 20:18:01 | <untseac> | usually it's the opposite, read first do later, but with haskell it's just do it |
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| 20:18:16 | <untseac> | at least worked for me |
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| 20:19:25 | <untseac> | which is the most technically decent web framework btw? if there's one. |
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| 20:19:38 | <davean> | Depends on what you want, theres levels of complexity |
| 20:19:44 | <untseac> | fair enough |
| 20:19:47 | <davean> | like servant is rather complicated but buys a lot of nice features with that |
| 20:20:03 | <davean> | But you might not want to pay that overhead for some basic stuff |
| 20:20:34 | <koz_> | Servant is good _if_ you work in the way they intend. |
| 20:20:47 | <koz_> | If you need anything else, it's _very_ difficult to work around. |
| 20:20:57 | <untseac> | oof I hate that |
| 20:21:00 | <koz_> | And the typelevel stuff can give _horrific_ error messages if you're not familiar with it. |
| 20:21:01 | <cohn> | anyone using HDBC to connect to a SQLite database? |
| 20:21:28 | <davean> | koz_: right, though I'd disagree with the "_very_ difficult" part - you can patch your own stuff in pretty easily |
| 20:21:33 | <koz_> | (I literally had pages of vomit giving me headaches before going 'oh, ScopedTypeVariables wasn't on) |
| 20:22:05 | <untseac> | I come from Java world so I doubt any of these web frameworks are worse |
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| 20:23:52 | <koz_> | cohn: What sort of issue are you seeing? |
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| 20:24:56 | <cohn> | koz_: can't seem to install HDBC + HDBC-sqlite3 via Stack. Wondering if it's because I'm using a too-new GHC. |
| 20:25:11 | <koz_> | cohn: Exact error message (in a pastebin)? |
| 20:25:56 | <cohn> | koz_: yep, one sec |
| 20:27:41 | <cohn> | koz_: https://pastebin.com/eWfUc67E |
| 20:27:55 | <cohn> | fwiw, this is on an OS X box |
| 20:28:31 | <koz_> | Yeah, I think it's an issue that HDBC-sqlite3 leans on a deprecated library. |
| 20:28:32 | <bliminse> | what were you using in Java untseac ? Spring/quarkus/micronaut? |
| 20:28:33 | <davean> | Oh my sqlite is old |
| 20:28:35 | <maerwald> | koz_: the funny thing is... most ppl don't make actual use of servant (e.g. sharing types or generating clients) :p |
| 20:28:58 | <bliminse> | if you were using smaller frameworks (i.e., not spring), you could try warp in haskell |
| 20:29:03 | <davean> | maerwald: Is that true? I know dozens of places using it and doing that. |
| 20:29:05 | <koz_> | But yeah, what's your resolver? |
| 20:29:15 | <dminuoso> | Where in either the Haskell report and GHC manual can I find a remark, how instance contexts are not considered for instance selection? |
| 20:29:16 | <untseac> | bliminse, spring |
| 20:29:22 | <bliminse> | it's going to require you implementing some things that may be available in the other frameworks but it's nowhere near as bloated |
| 20:29:24 | <untseac> | it's not fun |
| 20:29:28 | <maerwald> | davean: I've seen a good chunk of "let's use it, because it's cooler than scotty" |
| 20:29:32 | <bliminse> | ahhh, yeah :/ |
| 20:29:38 | <cohn> | koz_: lts-16.16 |
| 20:29:38 | <davean> | maerwald: huh, never seen that. |
| 20:29:45 | <bliminse> | I mean I get the appeal of spring, having the kitchen sink and then some |
| 20:30:05 | <bliminse> | but all the behind-the-doors magic is not something I enjoy |
| 20:30:17 | <untseac> | it's enterprise over-engineering crap tbh |
| 20:30:23 | <bliminse> | and that's considering at work I have to deal with the whole spring family! xD |
| 20:30:29 | <dminuoso> | In particular, Im trying to understand how instance methods of classes with superclass constraints are type checked. |
| 20:31:03 | <davean> | maerwald: infact, I've often seen it used *only* to produce clients |
| 20:31:05 | <untseac> | yeah my main issue with spring is that it tries to solve everything with this weird complicated mechanism but it's okayish I guess |
| 20:31:19 | <koz_> | I'm wondering why it has a dependency on sqlite - neither HDBC nor HDBC-sqlite seem to want it. |
| 20:31:22 | <dminuoso> | davean: Id be willing to argue that servant is great even for small APIs. |
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| 20:31:54 | <dminuoso> | The complexity is mostly in your head, the actual implementation of servant/servant-server is rather simple. |
| 20:31:54 | <davean> | dminuoso: I didn't mean your API size anywhere |
| 20:31:57 | <cohn> | koz_: it? |
| 20:31:58 | <untseac> | I just want to get rid of Java. Haskell looks like the best way to make maintainable software. At least so far. |
| 20:31:59 | <koz_> | cohn: What's your stack.yaml look like? |
| 20:32:09 | <maerwald> | For API layer, I don't care about typed API, I want proper structural typing, so I can create web-types easily. TypeScript is better at that |
| 20:32:16 | <davean> | dminuoso: Though I really dislike some of its things, like setting HTTP headers is *brokenly bad* in servant |
| 20:32:18 | <bliminse> | heh yes it's very enjoyable. well so, if you want to give a try with warp you can set something up really quickly with just a few packages: |
| 20:32:32 | <cohn> | koz_: I just have these lines in there. everything else is default: |
| 20:32:33 | <cohn> | extra-deps: |
| 20:32:33 | <cohn> | - sqlite-0.5.5@sha256:2ffbff8fdeeb4db51550755a4a8fa73f33ac74313713a6f2608e108889d0ef13,1875 |
| 20:32:36 | <cohn> | - HDBC-sqlite3-2.3.3.1@sha256:5025fd94d02b9b3f0b8b8233796dd9a85a0b3dda6503c6e671e3eddbc51cb4d4,2424 |
| 20:32:40 | <davean> | you have to set them in 3 places, its rediculous |
| 20:32:49 | <untseac> | I don't see much future in imperative languages, not with 32 cores, which we already have. That's my noobish prepective. |
| 20:32:50 | <bliminse> | warp itself, warp-tls for HTTPS, and possibly wai-extra for some handlers/middleware |
| 20:32:56 | <davean> | Where as *none* of most headers is what servant is supposed to represent at the type level. |
| 20:33:00 | <koz_> | Did it ask you to add the sqlite-0.5.5 line when you tried 'stack build' or something? |
| 20:33:04 | <dminuoso> | davean: I agree that it has some ergonomics problems, luckily if you're the one providing an API it's a non-issue. :) |
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| 20:33:35 | <cohn> | koz_: yes. |
| 20:33:35 | <davean> | dminuoso: incorrect? |
| 20:33:44 | <untseac> | I do want to see a decent game engine in haskell but it seems like no one figured that out yet |
| 20:33:46 | <davean> | The header things is exactly a case where it doesn't matter - its always a problem |
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| 20:33:54 | <koz_> | Can you remove that line, run 'stack build' again, and pastebin its error message? |
| 20:33:56 | <cohn> | koz_: now that I think of it, I can probably get away with using sqlite-simple instead |
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| 20:33:58 | <maerwald> | untseac: why |
| 20:34:06 | <untseac> | maerwald, why what? |
| 20:34:07 | <koz_> | If you _can_, definitely do so. |
| 20:34:11 | <dminuoso> | davean: What do you want to encode in headers that you can't encode in QueryParams or a ReqBody? |
| 20:34:11 | <koz_> | sqlite is deprecated. |
| 20:34:17 | <maerwald> | untseac: why would you want to see it |
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| 20:34:17 | <cohn> | koz_: lemme try that first. |
| 20:34:21 | <davean> | dminuoso: You know - like cache controls? |
| 20:34:24 | <davean> | HTTP semantics |
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| 20:34:32 | <davean> | HTTP has semantics, those semantics are controlled by headers often, they are not the client's concern and they don't represent anything on the recieve handling |
| 20:34:55 | <davean> | They are decisions made about the request by the hander, based on the request, and none something the client observes |
| 20:35:20 | <davean> | Which makes getting HTTP-correct requests encoded in Servant *very* difficult |
| 20:35:47 | <untseac> | maerwald, because declarative seems like a good way to make games. imperative is gives too many changes to make mistakes. if everything is functional than there's a good change that it's easy to maintain. but as everybody else I don't know a good way to do it. |
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| 20:36:06 | <maerwald> | I think that's a fallacy, but we'd have to see |
| 20:36:07 | <dminuoso> | davean: It depends on your problem domain I guess. In mine, I can get away without any caching. |
| 20:36:27 | hackage | yamlparse-applicative 0.1.0.2 - Declaritive configuration parsing with free docs https://hackage.haskell.org/package/yamlparse-applicative-0.1.0.2 (Norfair) |
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| 20:36:35 | <davean> | dminuoso: Right - if you're using HTTP as a dumb transport, but it isn't. Servant's design can't really handle that sanely. |
| 20:36:42 | <untseac> | perhaps maerwald but no point in not trying |
| 20:36:52 | <dminuoso> | davean: Im well aware. |
| 20:36:53 | <davean> | dminuoso: theres a bunch of other semantic HTTP headers |
| 20:37:08 | <maerwald> | I'd rather use rust for a game engine |
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| 20:37:27 | <maerwald> | haskell seems more like "because I want to", not because it makes terrible sense for an engine |
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| 20:37:40 | <untseac> | so far it seems like it |
| 20:37:58 | <davean> | maerwald: As an ex-cared-about-game-dev I can think of a few ways in which Haskell is good, or more really functional. |
| 20:38:05 | <davean> | But its hard to get the other stuff right |
| 20:38:17 | <dminuoso> | davean: If you grok HTTP well, and understand programming well enough, it's quite insane how people stuff data into an unstructured and inefficient protocol like JSON, and then stuff it into a highly semantic, inefficient and human readable protocol like HTTP... |
| 20:38:23 | <maerwald> | engines care about performance and predictable memory consumption |
| 20:38:27 | <dminuoso> | And I must admit, we do it as well |
| 20:38:35 | <untseac> | real time is hard in haskell. I think anyone figured that out with some time. |
| 20:38:40 | <dminuoso> | The main reason is just, it's fast to get communication between two agents with servant. |
| 20:38:45 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 20:39:06 | <dminuoso> | (And in the above, my main beef isnt even HTTP, it's how JSON is an awful serialization format) |
| 20:39:40 | <maerwald> | I could much rather imagine a DSL-style API around a C engine. But why do the low-level work in Haskell |
| 20:39:43 | <dminuoso> | What happened to the art of writing a simple wire protocol ontop of TCP.. |
| 20:40:06 | <untseac> | that could be an option maerwald |
| 20:40:16 | <cohn> | koz_: yep, sqlite-simple installed without a hitch |
| 20:40:19 | <cohn> | thanks! |
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| 20:40:23 | <koz_> | cohn: No worries. |
| 20:40:25 | <untseac> | but there are many games in Java and it's far from the fastest or with predictable memory |
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| 20:40:35 | <davean> | maerwald: its easier to talk about the data structure changes, which are pretty critical for performance, and the functional style avoids a whole bunch of (very common in games) errors around pipelining. |
| 20:40:36 | <untseac> | in fact it's really bad at predictable memory |
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| 20:42:08 | <untseac> | the main problem from what I see in game dev is that everyone thinks imperative by default so there's a lack of interest. Even languages other than C++ took a very long time to be popular in video game development. |
| 20:42:13 | <untseac> | let alone haskell |
| 20:42:35 | <untseac> | only now C# and python are popular choices |
| 20:42:47 | <davean> | C++ took a while too |
| 20:42:58 | <davean> | C++ use to be a lot harder to write efficiently than it is now |
| 20:43:01 | <untseac> | yeah it was C before that and assembly before |
| 20:43:31 | <davean> | I was mostly active in the C-like-C++-but-with-custom-assembly-for-every-CPU era |
| 20:43:36 | <untseac> | game development cares more about what exists, not what can be done. after all it's a business model to sell fast. |
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| 20:43:47 | <dminuoso> | davean: At any rate, I fully understand your beef with servant if managing headers is something you actually have to do. I just noticed that myself and some others don't have that need. |
| 20:43:50 | <JordiGH> | What's the syntax to define several where variables on the same line? |
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| 20:44:14 | <JordiGH> | (Haskell's the whitespace thing is an optional the whitespace thing, right?) |
| 20:44:21 | <davean> | dminuoso: of course. I just wish they would have a sane approach to HTTP given its supposed to be for HTTP ;) |
| 20:44:32 | <ski> | JordiGH : `... where x = 2; f y = x + y' |
| 20:44:32 | <untseac> | JordiGH, put another variable bellow |
| 20:44:48 | <untseac> | or that |
| 20:44:54 | <JordiGH> | ski: k thanks, let me see. |
| 20:44:57 | <laserpants> | Is anyone using hdevtools and Syntastic with vim/neovim? I reinstalled my machine and probably missed some step because the checks are not working. The background service is running and hdevtools is in the PATH. Typing :SyntasticInfo in vim also says that it is active. |
| 20:44:57 | <JordiGH> | untseac: Below? |
| 20:45:11 | <ski> | they mean, "not on the same line" |
| 20:45:27 | <untseac> | y |
| 20:46:29 | <JordiGH> | Alright, this works, let me see if I can figure out how to do this... I want to write a four-point recurrence... two-point is pretty easy with zipWith and tail |
| 20:47:05 | <dminuoso> | davean: To partially quote monochrom: "Programming is a dialectic class struggle between the author and the user.". On one hand you want to get easy access to headers, and on the other side of the table there's the desire to consider all parameters in a request to be parameters that belong in the declarative description of the API. |
| 20:47:25 | <dminuoso> | It's a trade off either way |
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| 20:48:23 | <davean> | dminuoso: Eh, thats true for some HTTP headers, but I don't think that can be considered true for the semantic ones because they should not be observable on either end |
| 20:48:36 | <davean> | They are how the infastructure handles the transport |
| 20:50:09 | <ski> | JordiGH : `as = a0 : a1 : a2 : a3 : [..an0..an1..an2..an3.. | an0:an1:an2:an3:_ <- tails as]' ? |
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| 20:50:20 | <JordiGH> | Okay, yeah, I don't have enough for this. I want to compute fib_2*fib_4 - fib_1*fib_3 where fib_1, fib_2, fib_3, and fib_4 are four consecutive fibonacci numbers. |
| 20:51:06 | <dminuoso> | davean: Id say a web server is not separated from the semantics, it's part of it. For instance, it's your job to produce the correct semantic HTTP status codes. |
| 20:51:08 | <JordiGH> | ski: Ohhhh, wait, I think I get it. |
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| 20:51:31 | <JordiGH> | And I also realise I didn't mean a recurrence. :-/ |
| 20:51:33 | <davean> | dminuoso: But its not even the server - its things like the caches inbetween, etc |
| 20:51:46 | <davean> | Also, status codes are header-invariant |
| 20:51:54 | <JordiGH> | I meant... taking four elements at a time from the fibonacci sequence. |
| 20:52:04 | <ski> | > let fibs = 0 : 1 : [fib_n0 + fib_n1 | fib_n0:fib_n1:_ <- tails fibs]om [fib_1*fib_3 - fib_0*fib_2 | fib_0:fib_1:fib_2:fib_3:_ <- fibs] |
| 20:52:07 | <lambdabot> | <no location info>: error: |
| 20:52:07 | <lambdabot> | not an expression: ‘let fibs = 0 : 1 : [fib_n0 + fib_n1 | fib_n0:fib_n1:... |
| 20:52:14 | <ski> | > let fibs = 0 : 1 : [fib_n0 + fib_n1 | fib_n0:fib_n1:_ <- tails fibs] in [fib_1*fib_3 - fib_0*fib_2 | fib_0:fib_1:fib_2:fib_3:_ <- fibs] |
| 20:52:17 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 20:52:17 | <lambdabot> | • No instance for (Num [Integer]) |
| 20:52:17 | <lambdabot> | arising from a use of ‘e_101010113020123’ |
| 20:52:30 | <JordiGH> | A use of what?? |
| 20:52:53 | <ski> | er, sorry |
| 20:53:07 | <ski> | > let fibs = 0 : 1 : [fib_n0 + fib_n1 | fib_n0:fib_n1:_ <- tails fibs] in [fib_1*fib_3 - fib_0*fib_2 | fib_0:fib_1:fib_2:fib_3:_ <- tails fibs] |
| 20:53:09 | <lambdabot> | [2,1,7,14,41,103,274,713,1871,4894,12817,33551,87842,229969,602071,1576238,4... |
| 20:53:11 | <ski> | > let fibs = 0 : 1 : [fib_n0 + fib_n1 | fib_n0:fib_n1:_ <- tails fibs] in [fib_1*fib_3 - fib_0*fib_2 | [fib_0,fib_1,fib_2,fib_3] <- chunksOf 4 fibs] |
| 20:53:13 | <lambdabot> | [2,41,1871,87842,4126649,193864607,9107509826,427859097161,20100270056687,94... |
| 20:53:14 | <JordiGH> | The ghc error messages never make any sense to me, I've learned to ignore them. |
| 20:53:25 | <ski> | the latter is "four at a time". the former is "sliding window of four" |
| 20:53:51 | <davean> | dminuoso: specificly headers vary on the occuring path between the client and server |
| 20:54:02 | <davean> | So you can't know them without knowing the path |
| 20:54:16 | <JordiGH> | ski: Huh, thanks, okay... that wasn't the result I expected, though. Let me check my math... |
| 20:54:39 | <ski> | JordiGH : perhaps i misinterpreted what you wanted, possibly ? |
| 20:55:22 | <ski> | > tails "abcdefghijklmnop" |
| 20:55:25 | <lambdabot> | ["abcdefghijklmnop","bcdefghijklmnop","cdefghijklmnop","defghijklmnop","efgh... |
| 20:55:32 | <ski> | > chunksOf 5 "abcdefghijklmnop" |
| 20:55:35 | <lambdabot> | ["abcde","fghij","klmno","p"] |
| 20:55:53 | <JordiGH> | ski: Yeah, wait, you have the right thing, what do I have wrong, hmmm... |
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| 21:01:49 | <JordiGH> | ski: right, I meant fib_0*fib_3 - fib_1*fib_2 whoops |
| 21:02:09 | <JordiGH> | > let fibs = 0 : 1 : [fib_n0 + fib_n1 | fib_n0:fib_n1:_ <- tails fibs] in [fib_0*fib_3 - fib_1*fib_2 | [fib_0,fib_1,fib_2,fib_3] <- chunksOf 4 fibs] |
| 21:02:11 | <lambdabot> | [-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,... |
| 21:02:16 | <JordiGH> | Yay that worked. |
| 21:02:25 | <JordiGH> | Except chunking but close enoguh. |
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| 21:02:52 | <ski> | ok |
| 21:03:09 | <JordiGH> | > let fibs = 0 : 1 : [fib_n0 + fib_n1 | fib_n0:fib_n1:_ <- tails fibs] in [fib_0*fib_3 - fib_1*fib_2 | [fib_0,fib_1,fib_2,fib_3] <- tails fibs] |
| 21:03:15 | <lambdabot> | mueval-core: Time limit exceeded |
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| 21:04:59 | <JordiGH> | > let fibs = 0 : 1 : [fib_n0 + fib_n1 | fib_n0:fib_n1:_ <- tails fibs] in [fib_0*fib_3 - fib_1*fib_2 | fib_0:fib_1:fib_2:fib_3:_ <- tails fibs] |
| 21:05:04 | <lambdabot> | [-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,... |
| 21:05:07 | <JordiGH> | w00t |
| 21:05:19 | <JordiGH> | ski: thank you so much! |
| 21:05:40 | <JordiGH> | But that took a while to compute, is this doing the dumb exponential recursive thing? |
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| 21:06:37 | <ski> | no |
| 21:08:47 | <JordiGH> | Hm, how do I make ghci remember readline history across sessions? |
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| 21:11:47 | <dminuoso> | Doesn't ghci do this out of the box already? |
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| 21:12:10 | <JordiGH> | Oh, it does, my bad, sorry. |
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| 21:14:44 | <koz_> | Does anyone know if snap-core's Params type handles percent encoding for you, or whether you have to do it yourself? |
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| 21:14:58 | <koz_> | I _think_ the answer is 'you have to do it yourself', but I'd like to be sure. |
| 21:15:41 | <kelanu> | I noticed that Google Colab said it supports the IHaskell kernel, which got me pretty excited. But I can't find any documentation for this, any ideas? I fonud a StackOverflow but it was removed. |
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| 22:09:09 | <dminuoso> | I have the desire to write some `f :: proxy (s :: Symbol) -> T (TyFam s)`, but the ergonomics looks annoying. Is there something that lets me write `f "foo"` rather than `f (Proxy @"foo")`? |
| 22:09:50 | <dminuoso> | Maybe through some extension? |
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| 22:11:20 | <newhoggy> | Axman6: Did you send me a message? I think can't find it anymore. |
| 22:13:20 | <dminuoso> | Mmm. I think OverloadedLabels is what Im after.. |
| 22:14:55 | <dolio> | Oh, I wasn't aware of that. |
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| 22:16:32 | <dolio> | So that lets you write `f ?field`? |
| 22:16:46 | <dminuoso> | f #field |
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| 22:17:16 | <dminuoso> | not sure how to deal with spaces or special characters |
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| 22:17:27 | hackage | little-rio 0.2.2 - When you need just the RIO monad https://hackage.haskell.org/package/little-rio-0.2.2 (ejconlon) |
| 22:17:38 | <dolio> | Oh yeah, I was reading the 'digression'. |
| 22:17:46 | <dminuoso> | Perhaps parens could be used? |
| 22:18:01 | <dminuoso> | % instance IsLabel "x y" Int where fromLabel = 42 |
| 22:18:01 | <yahb> | dminuoso: |
| 22:18:08 | <dminuoso> | % (#x y) |
| 22:18:09 | <yahb> | dminuoso: ; <interactive>:114:6: error: parse error on input `)' |
| 22:18:11 | <dminuoso> | Mmm |
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| 22:19:42 | <dminuoso> | Yeah, this is going to be a tough one. At the very least I need hyphens to be there. |
| 22:20:57 | <dminuoso> | Perhaps this is the point where replacing the Proxy with forall + TypeApplications is sensible |
| 22:21:07 | <dminuoso> | Then I could just say `f @"foo-bar" ...` |
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| 22:32:54 | hekkaidekapus} | is now known as hekkaidekapus |
| 22:35:23 | <hekkaidekapus> | <circa 20:30 UTC> dminuoso In particular, Im trying to understand how instance methods of classes with superclass constraints are type checked. |
| 22:35:43 | <hekkaidekapus> | dminuoso: I don’t have a quotation from the report/manual, but there is <https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/type-inference-as-constraint-solving-how-ghcs-type-inference-engine-actually-works>. |
| 22:36:08 | ← | Habib parts (~Habib@178.239.161.88) () |
| 22:36:25 | <hekkaidekapus> | I managed to dig out the slides if you are not into videos: <https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NRkP0hz-0Yo49Rto70b2nUwxjPiGD9Ci/view>. |
| 22:37:06 | <hekkaidekapus> | In short, you might be interested in constraint generation and the solving after that. |
| 22:37:09 | <dminuoso> | hekkaidekapus: Ah I dived into parts of that video a while ago, sadly it was cut off right in the interesting part I cared about. |
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| 22:37:57 | <dminuoso> | Thanks for the slides, this is really helpful for other reasons already. :) |
| 22:38:00 | <hekkaidekapus> | hmm… Did not check if the video is whole, but the slides are good. |
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| 22:38:44 | <hekkaidekapus> | Enjoy! |
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| 22:39:13 | <dminuoso> | Ill give the video a look from the beginning |
| 22:40:52 | <hekkaidekapus> | Yeah, better so rewatch to refresh your mind. There is also commentary pages on the ghc/wiki, there you can dive deeper into specific parts. |
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| 22:41:24 | <hekkaidekapus> | (Which will eventually lead you into Notes.) |
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| 23:12:11 | <Axman6> | newhoggy: "If you haven't seen it, you might enjoy https://liuliu.me/eyes/loading-csv-file-at-the-speed-limit-of-the-nvme-storage/" |
| 23:12:44 | <newhoggy> | Thanks! |
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| 23:31:30 | <dminuoso> | hekkaidekapus: Alright, the video didn't give me too many insights, and it was rather focused on the implementation of the constraint solver. |
| 23:31:37 | <dminuoso> | But it was a good refresher nevertheless. |
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| 23:34:22 | <hekkaidekapus> | Right. It’s only a video after all. :) |
| 23:34:48 | <hekkaidekapus> | dminuoso: Are you familiar with OutsideIn(X)? |
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| 23:38:29 | <dminuoso> | No, but Im looking at the paper right now |
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| 23:41:13 | <hekkaidekapus> | Okay. It is substantial and will be a long step further the Zurihac talk. I am not sure the current implementation is following it closely, still, but the exposition is really thorough. |
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| 23:49:53 | <Axman6> | newhoggy: I'd be interested to hear if you find anything you could use in hw-dsv in there |
| 23:51:20 | <newhoggy> | Yep. I had a skim and would like to look into it in more detail later. |
| 23:51:23 | ← | m1000 parts (~Boss@2a02:8108:96bf:b068:9dab:a091:4eab:df71) () |
| 23:51:45 | <gentauro> | .NET also have number separators like -> https://twitter.com/denicmarko/status/1314198060117884928 |
| 23:51:54 | <gentauro> | will it ever come to Haskell for better readability? |
| 23:52:15 | <Axman6> | GHC already has that |
| 23:52:40 | <gentauro> | Axman6: `Use NumericUnderscores to allow underscores in integer literals` :o |
| 23:52:44 | <gentauro> | I didn't knew that |
| 23:52:48 | <Axman6> | yes |
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| 23:53:31 | <Axman6> | not sure if Ada came up with that, but it's one of the features of Ada I always liked. great for binary literals: 0b1101_0101_1100_1010 |
| 23:53:32 | <gentauro> | I like it !!! |
| 23:53:56 | <gentauro> | Axman6: `great for binary literals: 0b1101_0101_1100_1010` exactly |
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| 23:54:08 | <no-n> | it's in perl and C# too |
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| 23:54:10 | <gentauro> | but also big numbers: 42_000_000_000 |
| 23:54:34 | <Axman6> | except when you confuse people by doing 42_000_000_0000 =) |
| 23:54:39 | <newhoggy> | Axman6: One of the design choices I made was to load the CVS via a lazy ByteString. I suspect there is a performance penalty for doing that and the method is not easily parrallelisable. There is an option to `mmap` to increase parallelism but in this case there is the down side the process will clock up a lot of memory usage which may not be suitable for some kinds of jobs. |
| 23:55:28 | <Axman6> | do you know if the chunks of the lazy bytestring are mmapped? |
| 23:55:34 | <hekkaidekapus> | dminuoso: “We do not discuss overlapping instances, implicit parameters, superclasses, or functional dependencies, although our implementation deals with all of these.” — (Emphasis is mine) Hmm… The paper may not be what you want if the implementation has changed in recent years. I would love to continue the digging, alas bed is calling. See you later. |
| 23:55:51 | <gentauro> | 01:54 < Axman6> except when you confuse people by doing 42_000_000_0000 =) |
| 23:55:56 | <newhoggy> | The kinds of jobs I'm thinking of are those that run in typical memory constrained VMs in where virtual memory is usually turned off (like in AWS) |
| 23:56:04 | <gentauro> | people doing that should loose at least a finger :) |
| 23:56:12 | <int-e> | Yeah with {-# LANGUAGE BinaryLiterals, NumericUnderscores #-} you can have 0b1000_000 or maybe 0b_1000_0000 |
| 23:56:28 | <Axman6> | sine it is mmapped the memory usage isn't real memory usage right? the OS can page them out if needed since it's loaded read only |
| 23:56:56 | <justsomeguy> | gentauro: Seems like an easy typo to make. Maybe it should be checked by the compiler. |
| 23:57:21 | <newhoggy> | Swap gets turned off a lot on AWS because of the higher latency to disk of most machine types. |
| 23:57:22 | <int-e> | (Hmm, the first one came out short :) ) |
| 23:57:28 | <Axman6> | newhoggy: I would be surprised if you can't mmap a huge file read only even if there isn't enough ram |
| 23:58:45 | <newhoggy> | I haven't tested it, but you may be right in that an mmapped file will function as expected even if swap is disabled. |
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All times are in UTC on 2020-10-12.