Logs on 2020-10-14 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 00:02:31 | <crestfallen> | so if we infer that g :: a ~ (c -> e) is e used just as a symbol for an unknown type? |
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| 00:02:40 | <crestfallen> | hpc Axman6 ? |
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| 00:05:55 | <Axman6> | sure, you can make up your own variable names any time you want |
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| 00:08:36 | <crestfallen> | Axman6: thanks thats a convention I guess, like a placemarker until you figure out what it is? |
| 00:08:51 | <crestfallen> | e, that is.. |
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| 00:13:13 | <crestfallen> | also how do we know that " by inspection, we know that c and d are equivalent " in g :: c -> b -> a and g :: d -> c ..? |
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| 00:32:18 | <Axman6> | because g can only have one type, so c -> (b -> a) ~ d -> c', therefore c ~ d |
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| 00:32:29 | <Axman6> | and b -> a ~ c' |
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| 00:36:08 | <crestfallen> | copy that Axman6 hpc thanks so much . not easy with such a abstract func. definition. |
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| 00:37:30 | <dnlkrgr> | could all Haskell syntax extensions be represented as template haskell packages instead? |
| 00:37:56 | <Axman6> | well, most of them are syntactic, so there wou;dn't be much point |
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| 00:39:00 | <Axman6> | if I had to write [NumericUnderscores|0b1100_1010_0011_0101|] I'd be unhappy (technically a quasi quote but similar) |
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| 00:40:10 | <dnlkrgr> | right the ergonomics are worse, I think the cool thing would GHC development is not burdened by such extensions and users could just get a package instead of waiting for a new GHC version |
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| 00:40:58 | <dnlkrgr> | and I guess one is limited by what the AST offers, no new stuff |
| 00:41:54 | <monochrom> | This seems to presuppose that most GHC extensions are merely syntax sugars over Haskell 2010. |
| 00:42:02 | <solonarv> | GHC plugins would be a better approach than TH packages for a lot of extensions |
| 00:42:13 | <solonarv> | and that idea has indeed been floated a few times |
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| 00:42:52 | <monochrom> | What would [RankNTypes | f :: (forall a. a->a) -> (Int, Bool); f g = (g 1, g True) ] desugar to, if after desugaring you're stuck with rank-1 Haskell 2010? |
| 00:43:03 | <crestfallen> | so say with join, we don't know the monad being used, so we use e , such as in m = (->) e |
| 00:43:14 | <crestfallen> | join :: (->) e ((->) e a) -> ((->) e) a |
| 00:43:17 | <dnlkrgr> | right, plugins might be the way to go |
| 00:43:19 | <dolio> | I think the answer is just, "no." |
| 00:44:08 | <crestfallen> | Axman6: is that the same way e was being used in the unify exercise? |
| 00:44:19 | <solonarv> | plugins still don't quite work for (many) extensions that add new syntax, but that could in theory be fixed with a better plugin API |
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| 00:44:48 | <monochrom> | My bad, I did not read "syntax extensions". |
| 00:48:39 | <crestfallen> | s |
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| 01:04:24 | <amf> | in `data T = A | B` what would the A and B be called? cases? |
| 01:05:16 | <Axman6> | constructors |
| 01:05:34 | <Axman6> | "constructors of type T" |
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| 01:46:07 | <dsal> | A friend just sent me a web page that had some haskell code on it and it never occurred to me that you could infix constructors. |
| 01:46:19 | <dsal> | @let data XY = XY Int Int deriving Show |
| 01:46:21 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 01:46:25 | <dsal> | > 1 `XY` 2 |
| 01:46:27 | <lambdabot> | XY 1 2 |
| 01:47:44 | <monochrom> | There is more. |
| 01:48:00 | <monochrom> | @let data MN = Int `MN` Int deriving Show |
| 01:48:02 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 01:48:06 | <monochrom> | > MN 1 2 |
| 01:48:08 | <lambdabot> | 1 `MN` 2 |
| 01:48:34 | <monochrom> | The derived Show instance respects which syntax you used at "data" time. :) |
| 01:49:15 | <monochrom> | This also applies to "data C = Double :+ Double" vs "data C = (:+) Double Double" |
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| 01:50:46 | <monochrom> | If you also derive Generic, the meta information about the constructor also tells you prefix vs infix according to which syntax you used in the "data" line. |
| 01:51:21 | <monochrom> | (So that for example you can perfecting duplicate the behaviour of "deriving Show".) |
| 01:51:29 | <monochrom> | s/perfecting/perfectly/ |
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| 01:53:48 | <dsal> | Oh wow. |
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| 01:54:07 | <dsal> | It's the little things. |
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| 05:14:27 | hackage | citeproc 0.1.0.1 - Generates citations and bibliography from CSL styles. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/citeproc-0.1.0.1 (JohnMacFarlane) |
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| 05:40:57 | hackage | hasql-dynamic-statements 0.3.1 - Toolkit for constructing Hasql statements dynamically https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hasql-dynamic-statements-0.3.1 (NikitaVolkov) |
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| 06:45:57 | hackage | stm-incremental 0.1.0.0 - A library for constructing incremental computations https://hackage.haskell.org/package/stm-incremental-0.1.0.0 (sgschlesinger) |
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| 07:25:07 | <joel135> | Is there a way to show desugared code in ghci? |
| 07:25:17 | <joel135> | e.g. [x^2 | x <- [1..], then take 10] |
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| 07:27:04 | <dminuoso> | % :set -ddump-ds |
| 07:27:05 | <yahb> | dminuoso: |
| 07:27:05 | <[exa]> | joel135: there's ghc option -ddump-core (or similar), not sure about ghci though |
| 07:27:13 | <[exa]> | o nice |
| 07:27:14 | <dminuoso> | % take 1 [x^2 | x <- [1..]] |
| 07:27:15 | <yahb> | dminuoso: ; ==================== Desugared ====================; let {; $dEnum_aJNX :: GHC.Enum.Enum GHC.Integer.Type.Integer; [LclId]; $dEnum_aJNX = GHC.Enum.$fEnumInteger } in; let {; $dNum_aJNW :: GHC.Num.Num GHC.Integer.Type.Integer; [LclId]; $dNum_aJNW = GHC.Num.$fNumInteger } in; let {; $dShow_aJNZ :: GHC.Show.Show GHC.Integer.Type.Integer; [LclId]; $dShow_aJNZ = GHC.Show.$fShowInteger } in; let { |
| 07:27:38 | <dminuoso> | joel135: Note, yahb is just a GHCi bot. :) |
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| 07:30:07 | <joel135> | that's a LOT of code |
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| 07:30:46 | <dminuoso> | joel135: The thing is, you're seeing a sort of intermediate language here. |
| 07:31:17 | <dminuoso> | Everything is explicitly typed, all types are displayed using fully qualified names |
| 07:31:30 | <dminuoso> | Dictionaries (typeclass instances) are made explicit |
| 07:33:13 | <dminuoso> | (We call this intermediate language Core) |
| 07:33:58 | <dminuoso> | If you wanted a semantical desugaring (according to the Haskell report), you can use @undo from lambdabot |
| 07:34:06 | <dminuoso> | @undo [x^2 | x <- [1..]] |
| 07:34:06 | <lambdabot> | concatMap (\ x -> [x ^ 2]) [1 ..] |
| 07:34:23 | <joel135> | @undo [x^2 | x <- [1..], mod x 2 == 1, then take 10] |
| 07:34:32 | <dminuoso> | joel135: What is that `then take 10` at the end? |
| 07:34:38 | <joel135> | https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/monad-comprehensions |
| 07:34:45 | <joel135> | ^ I heard about it today. |
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| 07:35:06 | <dminuoso> | The gitlab wiki is so awfully slow. |
| 07:35:33 | <joel135> | % :set -XTransformListComp |
| 07:35:33 | <yahb> | joel135: |
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| 07:36:07 | <dminuoso> | joel135: I see, @undo is not aware of monad comprehensions afaik |
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| 07:36:40 | <dminuoso> | At any rate, this will desugar to: |
| 07:36:51 | <dminuoso> | @undo [x^2 | x <- [1..], mod x 2 == 1] |
| 07:36:51 | <lambdabot> | concatMap (\ x -> if mod x 2 == 1 then [x ^ 2] else []) [1 ..] |
| 07:36:57 | <dminuoso> | take 10 (concatMap (\ x -> if mod x 2 == 1 then [x ^ 2] else []) [1 ..]) |
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| 07:37:37 | <dminuoso> | At least semantically. You could try `-ddump-ds-preopt` to see how exactly GHC will desugar it, but the thing is GHC does not desugar into Haskell, but rather straight into core. |
| 07:37:50 | <dminuoso> | (Because -ddump-ds will run some preliminary simplifier passes) |
| 07:38:37 | <joel135> | I think @undo is the sort of thing I was looking for, if it were complete. |
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| 07:39:14 | <dminuoso> | You could make an issue about it https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot |
| 07:39:52 | <joel135> | @undo do {a <- [1,2,3]; b <- [4,5,6]; return (a,b)} |
| 07:39:52 | <lambdabot> | [1, 2, 3] >>= \ a -> [4, 5, 6] >>= \ b -> return (a, b) |
| 07:39:53 | <tomjaguarpaw> | I'm so confused why cabal says the following when I do have both a packagename.cabal and cabal.project file |
| 07:39:56 | <tomjaguarpaw> | Warning: There are no packages or optional-packages in the project |
| 07:39:59 | <tomjaguarpaw> | cabal: There is no <pkgname>.cabal package file or cabal.project file. |
| 07:40:15 | <dminuoso> | tomjaguarpaw: What command did you invoke? |
| 07:40:19 | <joel135> | ok |
| 07:40:48 | <dminuoso> | joel135: the core translation should be fine too, it just takes a little bit of getting used to it. |
| 07:41:34 | <dminuoso> | joel135: https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/704f2aa9bd5d402ccb572b31e81da97e#file-gistfile1-txt-L60-L83 |
| 07:41:38 | <dminuoso> | That's the desugared region |
| 07:42:28 | <dminuoso> | If you just take that snipped, and get rid of all the @ and $ stuff, it should look like regular haskell. |
| 07:43:48 | <joel135> | How did you highlight it? |
| 07:44:09 | <dminuoso> | joel135: You can click on the line numbers to the right, and then use shift to select a region. |
| 07:44:14 | <tomjaguarpaw> | dminuoso: cabal v2-build |
| 07:44:27 | <joel135> | oh, and then the url changes |
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| 07:45:15 | <dminuoso> | Right |
| 07:45:16 | <tomjaguarpaw> | cabal v2-configure also says "Warning: There are no packages or optional-packages in the project |
| 07:45:38 | <dminuoso> | joel135: If you reload, Ive made a comment to the gist where I just copied the selected region, and just removed all type applications (@ foo) and dictionary applications ($ bar) |
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| 07:45:59 | <dminuoso> | You can then take that, remove all the qualifiers, and then it should look like regular haskell |
| 07:46:24 | <tomjaguarpaw> | Oh, I know why it is. It's because cabal.project exists but doesn't have a packages: section |
| 07:46:37 | <dminuoso> | Core is very readable, just dont get confused by all the TyApps and dict passing. :) |
| 07:47:27 | hackage | effet 0.3.0.1 - An Effect System based on Type Classes https://hackage.haskell.org/package/effet-0.3.0.1 (MichaelSzvetits) |
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| 07:54:27 | <joel135> | thanks for writing it out |
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| 08:01:51 | <[exa]> | is there any concept in libraries such as "succ with wrapped overflow", say derived from Enum and Bounded? basically `succ' a = if a==maxBound then minBound else succ a` |
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| 08:10:11 | <joel135> | I don't seem to have Control.Monad.Group. Should it be imported with "import Control.Monad.Group"? |
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| 08:12:07 | <dminuoso> | heh |
| 08:12:29 | <dminuoso> | It was removed in base-4.5.0.0 it seems |
| 08:12:39 | <dminuoso> | Does grouping with MonadComprehensions still desugar to mgroupWith? |
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| 08:14:30 | <joel135> | I get parse error on input ‘]’ |
| 08:15:17 | <joel135> | [ x | x <- [1,1,2,2,3], then group by x ] |
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| 08:15:34 | <dminuoso> | % :set -XMonadComprehensions |
| 08:15:35 | <yahb> | dminuoso: |
| 08:15:38 | <dminuoso> | % [(x :: [Int]) | x <- [1,2,1,2], then group by x ] :: [[Int]] |
| 08:15:39 | <yahb> | dminuoso: ; <interactive>:8:49: error: parse error on input `]' |
| 08:15:43 | <dminuoso> | Huh indeed. |
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| 08:20:34 | <dminuoso> | joel135: The wiki page is wrong |
| 08:20:37 | <dminuoso> | https://db.inf.uni-tuebingen.de/staticfiles/publications/haskell2011.pdf |
| 08:20:49 | <dminuoso> | Or.. |
| 08:20:51 | <dminuoso> | No its not! |
| 08:20:59 | <dminuoso> | It seems someone broke the parser. File a bug report. |
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| 08:24:08 | <joel135> | ok |
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| 08:26:14 | <joel135> | But is it just the parser, if mgroupWith doesn't exist? |
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| 08:33:28 | <dminuoso> | joel135: It could also be the wiki page is out of date though |
| 08:33:36 | <dminuoso> | The GHC manual does not mention `group by f` |
| 08:33:38 | <dminuoso> | https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/glasgow_exts.html#extension-MonadComprehensions |
| 08:33:55 | <joel135> | Maybe I shouldn't file a bug report? |
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| 08:36:07 | <dminuoso> | joel135: Given that mgroupWith has disappeared, I'd say its working as intended. |
| 08:36:34 | <dminuoso> | It seems you're now required to be explicit about the grouping function with `using` |
| 08:36:47 | <dminuoso> | (Because without mgroupWith, the non-using syntax couldnt work) |
| 08:37:08 | <dminuoso> | At the very least the wiki ought to be cleaned up in that regard. |
| 08:37:22 | <joel135> | What is `using`? |
| 08:38:29 | <dminuoso> | Refer to https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/glasgow_exts.html#extension-TransformListComp |
| 08:38:31 | <dminuoso> | Err |
| 08:38:39 | <dminuoso> | https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/glasgow_exts.html#extension-MonadComprehensions |
| 08:38:42 | <dminuoso> | Looked so similar. :> |
| 08:38:57 | <dminuoso> | % import GHC.Exts |
| 08:38:57 | <yahb> | dminuoso: |
| 08:39:02 | <dminuoso> | % :set -XMonadComprehensions |
| 08:39:03 | <yahb> | dminuoso: |
| 08:39:06 | <dminuoso> | % [ x | x <- [1,1,2,2,3], then group by x using GHC.Exts.groupWith ] |
| 08:39:07 | <yahb> | dminuoso: ; ==================== Desugared ====================; let {; $dOrd_aJUI :: GHC.Classes.Ord GHC.Integer.Type.Integer; [LclId]; $dOrd_aJUI = GHC.Integer.Type.$fOrdInteger } in; let {; $dNum_aJUH :: GHC.Num.Num GHC.Integer.Type.Integer; [LclId]; $dNum_aJUH = GHC.Num.$fNumInteger } in; let {; $dShow_aJUL :: GHC.Show.Show GHC.Integer.Type.Integer; [LclId]; $dShow_aJUL = GHC.Show.$fShowInteger } i |
| 08:39:46 | <dminuoso> | % [ x | x <- [1,1,2,2,3], then group by x using GHC.Exts.groupWith ] |
| 08:39:46 | <yahb> | dminuoso: ; <interactive>:3:7: error:; Unexpected transform statement in a monad comprehension; Use TransformListComp |
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| 08:40:17 | <dminuoso> | % :set TransformListComp |
| 08:40:17 | <yahb> | dminuoso: Some flags have not been recognized: TransformListComp |
| 08:40:19 | <dminuoso> | % :set -XTransformListComp |
| 08:40:19 | <yahb> | dminuoso: |
| 08:40:21 | <dminuoso> | % [ x | x <- [1,1,2,2,3], then group by x using GHC.Exts.groupWith ] |
| 08:40:21 | <yahb> | dminuoso: [[1,1],[2,2],[3]] |
| 08:40:42 | <dminuoso> | Boy this is extensions Ive never seen in use anywhere. |
| 08:41:07 | <dminuoso> | % :set -XParallelListComp |
| 08:41:08 | <yahb> | dminuoso: |
| 08:41:18 | <dminuoso> | % [ (x+y) | x <- [1..10] | y <- [11..20]] |
| 08:41:18 | <yahb> | dminuoso: [12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30] |
| 08:41:36 | <dminuoso> | ParallelListComp seems useful though. |
| 08:41:54 | <joel135> | yes |
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| 09:18:37 | <maerwald> | is there a tool that can give an external API diff of two package versions? |
| 09:19:17 | <joel135> | that sounds useful |
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| 09:24:56 | <phadej> | maerwald: https://imgur.com/a/pUiIJzG |
| 09:25:30 | <lortabac> | http://hdiff.luite.com/ |
| 09:25:48 | <dminuoso> | phadej: Is that cabal-diff available outside your computer? |
| 09:26:11 | <maerwald> | https://github.com/phadej/cabal-extras |
| 09:26:36 | <lortabac> | oh pardon, you want changes in the external API, hdiff gives you the full diff |
| 09:27:18 | <dminuoso> | Ah. |
| 09:27:21 | <phadej> | I should be really reading interface files and not haddocks, but dealing with former is not something i'll do for free :) |
| 09:27:31 | <dminuoso> | maerwald: hackage also lists https://hackage.haskell.org/package/precis |
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| 09:28:16 | <phadej> | uses haskell-src-exts :) |
| 09:30:27 | <maerwald> | I'm also wondering how to tell ghc to stop using ld.gold... whatever I try, it ignores it |
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| 09:32:50 | <dminuoso> | data ASA_IPsec_Client_Firewall_Filter_Optional = ASA_IPsec_Client_Firewall_Filter_Optional_Optional | ... |
| 09:32:56 | <dminuoso> | Mmm, this seems a bit too long.. |
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| 09:33:52 | <dminuoso> | But, I could perhaps use OverloadedLabels, such that #Optional will map to `ASA_IPsec_Client_Firewall_Filter_Optional_Optional`. |
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| 09:35:12 | <dminuoso> | phadej: Curious, is that a bad thing? |
| 09:35:29 | <dminuoso> | Im currently using haskell-src-exts for code generation, and so far Ive found it to be pleasant. |
| 09:36:40 | <Taneb> | "Dan Burton is currently keeping haskell-src-exts on life support. If you are interested in more actively making improvements to this package, please make your interests known. You might want to try ghc-lib-parser instead." |
| 09:37:04 | <Taneb> | (from the readme on GitHub for haskell-src-exts) |
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| 09:44:51 | <phadej> | dminuoso: when you comparing APIs it's a good idea to ask compiler what it will produce |
| 09:45:19 | <phadej> | dminuoso: comparing parsed source is different |
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| 09:46:57 | hackage | egison 4.1.0 - Programming language with non-linear pattern-matching against non-free data https://hackage.haskell.org/package/egison-4.1.0 (SatoshiEgi) |
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| 10:05:57 | <proofofme> | TIL to pass --lib with `cabal install` ... |
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| 10:18:35 | <maerwald> | don't :) |
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| 10:26:19 | <merijn> | proofofme: Next step is to learn to not use "cabal install" at all, unless it's an executable ;) |
| 10:26:40 | <proofofme> | how is that? |
| 10:27:15 | <merijn> | proofofme: There's very little workflows where installing a library that way really makes sense |
| 10:27:37 | <proofofme> | for example, how would you install mysql-haskell? |
| 10:27:57 | <merijn> | proofofme: Why do you need it installed? To use in your own code? |
| 10:28:04 | <proofofme> | yeah |
| 10:28:30 | <merijn> | proofofme: You just add it as a dependency to your project and then it gets installed automatically when you run "cabal build" on your code? :) |
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| 10:29:29 | <proofofme> | I haven't been using `cabal build`, just `ghc -o _______ _______.hs` |
| 10:29:54 | <merijn> | ah, then you probably want to make the switch away from that :) |
| 10:30:08 | <merijn> | proofofme: "cabal init --interactive" in your source directory should help get you started |
| 10:31:12 | <merijn> | As soon as you start using dependencies or having more than 1 file (or really even with 1 file, tbh), using cabal will be much easier |
| 10:32:47 | <merijn> | proofofme: See also: https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/latest/index.html |
| 10:32:53 | <dminuoso> | proofofme: Also, with `cabal install --lib` you rapidly get into dependency hell |
| 10:33:20 | <dminuoso> | (I found that the 2nd or 3rd library easily leads to issues) |
| 10:34:50 | <dminuoso> | I believe, that each library you install that way, essentially pins its own dependencies, and those become constraints for future libraries. |
| 10:35:00 | <dminuoso> | At least thats what it seemed like |
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| 10:35:19 | <proofofme> | yeah... |
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| 10:37:13 | <merijn> | Someone should really update the getting started and nix-style chapter on read the docs to 1) focus on v2 workflows and 2) remove comparisons to sandboxes, now that they're gone. But I fear the only way that will happen is if "someone" equals "me" >.> |
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| 10:47:00 | <fendor> | it feels like this situation in a flat share where nobody wants to do the dishes, so it just piles up until someone crumbles and does it for everyone |
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| 10:48:31 | <merijn> | fendor: Well, it's also a matter of people having jobs, so contributions in people's spare time are prioritised by how much they affect/appeal to/are wanted by contributors |
| 10:49:25 | <merijn> | Which is why I haven't done it yet. After 8 hours of work "writing docs" is never going to win from "implement something fun" or "videogames" :) |
| 10:49:39 | <fendor> | I know, I did not want to say that anyone is being lazy, it is just a lot of work |
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| 10:52:14 | <merijn> | Congrats on the multi-home stuff, btw, I've been waiting for that for ages :> |
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| 10:54:28 | <fendor> | merijn, It is not merged yet T_T |
| 10:54:54 | <fendor> | But I got two minor prs merged for it, so the diff becomes gradually smaller |
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| 11:03:04 | <dminuoso> | New record, nullary sum type with 2k constructors! :) |
| 11:03:42 | <dminuoso> | Given the context, it's quite silly but the only sensible thing to do. |
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| 11:51:15 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: why not a newtype over Int? |
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| 12:15:27 | hackage | epi-sim 0.2.2.0 - A library for simulating epidemics as birth-death processes. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/epi-sim-0.2.2.0 (AlexanderZarebski) |
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| 12:58:58 | hackage | uniqueness-periods-vector-common 0.5.1.1 - Generalization of the dobutokO-poetry-general package functionality https://hackage.haskell.org/package/uniqueness-periods-vector-common-0.5.1.1 (OleksandrZhabenko) |
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| 13:14:27 | hackage | uniqueness-periods-vector 0.3.1.0 - Generalization of the uniqueness-periods and uniqueness-periods-general packages functionality. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/uniqueness-periods-vector-0.3.1.0 (OleksandrZhabenko) |
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| 13:39:27 | hackage | uniqueness-periods-vector 0.3.1.1 - Generalization of the uniqueness-periods and uniqueness-periods-general packages functionality. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/uniqueness-periods-vector-0.3.1.1 (OleksandrZhabenko) |
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| 13:45:58 | hackage | http-conduit-downloader 1.1.1 - HTTP downloader tailored for web-crawler needs. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/http-conduit-downloader-1.1.1 (VladimirShabanov) |
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| 13:58:28 | hackage | mu-grpc-common 0.4.0.0 - gRPC for Mu, common modules for client and server https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mu-grpc-common-0.4.0.0 (AlejandroSerrano) |
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| 13:59:28 | hackage | mu-grpc-client 0.4.0.0 - gRPC clients from Mu definitions https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mu-grpc-client-0.4.0.0 (AlejandroSerrano) |
| 14:00:28 | hackage | mu-grpc-server 0.4.0.0 - gRPC servers for Mu definitions https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mu-grpc-server-0.4.0.0 (AlejandroSerrano) |
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| 14:25:18 | <maerwald> | yeah, why not |
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| 14:25:55 | <merijn> | ? |
| 14:26:17 | <maerwald> | wrt newtype |
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| 14:30:00 | <nihilazo> | hello, I have ghc installed on an aarch64 machine and I want to set up stack/cabal and the rest of the tooling I need for writing haskell but I don't know how when all I have rn is ghc. How can I build those other tools? Also, do I need both cabal and stack or is it a case of using one or the other? which should I use? |
| 14:30:39 | <merijn> | nihilazo: cabal used to have a bootstrap script |
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| 14:31:03 | <merijn> | nihilazo: Some relevant answers for you: https://gist.github.com/merijn/8152d561fb8b011f9313c48d876ceb07 |
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| 14:32:21 | <merijn> | nihilazo: Here's a python bootstrapping script for cabal-install (and Cabal): https://github.com/haskell/cabal/tree/master/bootstrap |
| 14:33:14 | <nihilazo> | ok. So, I think the tool I need is cabal-install and I need the cabal library, and I will need to bootstrap those as there's no binaries for aarch64 for those? Unless there is and I can't see them |
| 14:33:30 | <merijn> | I doubt there's binaries for aarch64, yeah |
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| 14:34:20 | <merijn> | The python script should download, build and install them and finally build Cabal and cabal-install |
| 14:36:06 | <nihilazo> | I have ghc already, I will see if that script works, thanks |
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| 14:36:56 | <maerwald> | nihilazo: http://oleg.fi/cabal-install-3.4.0.0-rc4/cabal-install-3.4.0.0-aarch64-ubuntu-18.04.tar.xz |
| 14:37:02 | <maerwald> | does that binary work? |
| 14:37:23 | <nihilazo> | I will try it |
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| 14:38:49 | <nihilazo> | it seems to, what is a good cabal command to use to test? |
| 14:39:13 | <maerwald> | cabal repl --build-depends unix |
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| 14:39:42 | <maerwald> | you probably need 'cabal update' before |
| 14:40:10 | <nihilazo> | well, that starts the repl, so I guess it's working |
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| 14:40:19 | <nihilazo> | it starts a GHCi |
| 14:40:43 | <nihilazo> | (after spitting out some errors about library versions) |
| 14:40:44 | <nihilazo> | but those don't seem to affect anything |
| 14:41:42 | <nihilazo> | (the errors don't, cabal seems to work) |
| 14:41:45 | <nihilazo> | cool, I don't need to build anything :D |
| 14:41:48 | <nihilazo> | thanks |
| 14:41:53 | <maerwald> | what errors |
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| 14:44:46 | <hseg> | hi. sometimes i'm testing large datasets in ghci, is there a quick way to parallelize them? |
| 14:45:10 | <merijn> | Depends |
| 14:45:11 | <hseg> | specifically, i'm looking for sth like parMap :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] |
| 14:45:32 | <merijn> | How long are the individual functions? |
| 14:45:33 | <hseg> | ... well, considering i'm them mapM_ print'ing this, it doesn't need to end in [b] |
| 14:45:48 | <hseg> | text or runtime? |
| 14:45:52 | <merijn> | the runtime |
| 14:46:07 | <hseg> | pretty quick for the actual sizes i'm testing |
| 14:46:12 | <hseg> | horrible asymptotics though |
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| 14:47:05 | <merijn> | I wrote a parallel map like that, but I didn't really optimise it to be low overhead, so for workloads that are less than 0.5s or whatever it's probably not efficient enough |
| 14:47:19 | <hseg> | can give it a shot |
| 14:47:24 | <merijn> | well, 0.5s is probably pessimistic |
| 14:47:50 | <merijn> | hseg: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/broadcast-chan-0.2.1.1/docs/BroadcastChan.html#g:4 |
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| 14:49:00 | <merijn> | `parMapM_ (Simple Terminate)` + some relevant number of threads |
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| 14:50:24 | <hseg> | sorry, connection dropped |
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| 14:51:44 | <merijn> | hseg: https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/day/haskell/today/recent?id=63569×tamp=1602686844#t1602686844 |
| 14:52:14 | <hseg> | ty |
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| 15:00:58 | <dziban> | hello! |
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| 15:02:36 | <merijn> | hseg: Lemme know how it performs, I've mostly been using it for parallel IO, I'm curious how well it works for parallelising short stuff |
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| 15:03:27 | <ski> | hello dziban |
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| 15:25:44 | <hseg> | merijn: sorry, was called elsewhere, giving it a shot now |
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| 15:25:57 | <hseg> | need to adapt my code a little though |
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| 15:27:58 | <hseg> | "a little" -- was using list comprehensions pretty heavily |
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| 15:37:28 | hackage | streaming-bytestring 0.1.7 - Fast, effectful byte streams. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/streaming-bytestring-0.1.7 (fosskers) |
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| 15:52:38 | <tomenos> | hey! Im a newbie in haskell, and Im trying to do a function that returns the most common vocal in a string (doesnt matter if is lower or upper case) |
| 15:52:43 | <tomenos> | any ideas? |
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| 15:55:27 | <merijn> | Build a "Map Char Int" and then lookup the character with the highest count? |
| 15:56:05 | <tomenos> | ow tks!!! gonna try it |
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| 16:19:37 | <hseg> | merijn: ok, finally managed to bash things into the appropriate shape |
| 16:19:44 | <hseg> | let's see how long it takes it |
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| 16:33:27 | hackage | tasty-ant-xml 1.1.7 - Render tasty output to XML for Jenkins https://hackage.haskell.org/package/tasty-ant-xml-1.1.7 (OliverCharles) |
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| 16:48:39 | <kamek> | to convert my own datatypes to and from Data.Text, is there a typeclass I should implement ? Or do people simply write plain functions |
| 16:49:22 | <monochrom> | Just write plain functions. |
| 16:49:57 | <sim590> | kamek: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/10988253/is-there-an-equivalent-of-the-show-typeclass-for-data-text |
| 16:50:18 | <sim590> | I know that it's 6 years old though. |
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| 16:51:13 | <monochrom> | The problem with "a type class like Show" is that everyone wants it to do something slightly different, even for the same type. And it shows. (Pun!) |
| 16:51:35 | <kamek> | :p |
| 16:51:52 | <monochrom> | Some people want Show to stand for debugging output, some other want it to stand for user-facing output. Well they are in conflict. |
| 16:51:59 | <kamek> | same for deserializing I assume ? |
| 16:52:30 | <monochrom> | Oh deserialising is yet another different thing people want Show to stand for, too. |
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| 16:53:15 | <dolio> | Serializing to Show output is a clear bad idea, though. |
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| 16:54:18 | <Uniaika> | whereas having a simple set of rules like "Show is Read's counterpart, Debug/Inspect is for debugging output" <- now we don't try to shoehorn every usecase in one typeclass! |
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| 16:55:25 | <monochrom> | Yes I would support having multiple standard-endorsed classes, so one single class doesn't get too overloaded (pun!). For example look at Rust, it has two. |
| 16:56:34 | <monochrom> | But human nature is "I want one simple standard, and it does what I want". |
| 16:56:50 | <Uniaika> | monochrom: we need to form a coallition to upstream a Debug/Inspect for that kind of things |
| 16:57:14 | <Uniaika> | monochrom: nah, human nature is dead for a while now. "Human Nature" is now what your marketing is making people thing their nature is |
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| 16:57:45 | <monochrom> | My opinion is that the stance "Show gives you valid Haskell syntax" is conceived out of the intersection of debugging output and serialization. |
| 16:58:38 | <dolio> | I don't think it really makes much sense to push for Show/Read to be anything but the debug-ish one, really. The majority of instances are going to be derived according to the mechanical procedure that isn't good for user-facing display, and you can't automatically derive a good user-facing display. |
| 16:59:39 | <monochrom> | Outputting Haskell syntax is sufficient, but not necessary, for debugging output purposes. For many types, there are nicer formats than Haskell syntax. For example my students agree that for tree types "deriving Show" is less readable than any homebrew format. |
| 16:59:39 | <dsal> | When you can read what you show, you make a lot of things a lot easier. I used to make clever user-friendly Show instances until I head to deal with someone else's. |
| 16:59:54 | <maerwald> | Show and read may be whatever you want, if you control the data (and as such, the instance definition) |
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| 17:00:14 | <monochrom> | Outputting Haskell syntax is also sufficient, but not necessary, for serialization. Clearly there are more efficient formats. |
| 17:00:46 | <monochrom> | BUT! If you want the debugging camp and the serialization camp to both agree on one format, it's Haskell syntax. |
| 17:01:16 | <Uniaika> | + a pretty-printing package like pretty-simple |
| 17:01:35 | <Uniaika> | :P |
| 17:01:54 | <dolio> | Every time people invent fancy formatting for the debug output, they leave out important information that I eventually want when debugging, in my experience. |
| 17:02:18 | <dolio> | So I just want to see the actually Haskell value. |
| 17:03:23 | <maerwald> | meh, show could have been: show :: Style -> a -> String |
| 17:03:36 | <maerwald> | data Style = Debug | Serial | Pretty |
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| 17:04:23 | <geekosaur> | except someone will come up with a fourth |
| 17:04:30 | <monochrom> | You should that a type-level, not term-level, parameter. >:) |
| 17:04:39 | <monochrom> | s/should/should make/ |
| 17:04:42 | <maerwald> | now we need open variants, easy |
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| 17:05:19 | <monochrom> | Oh, type-level is open, too. |
| 17:05:25 | <Uniaika> | with a sprinkle of type apps |
| 17:05:39 | <monochrom> | show :: (ShowStyle s, Show a) => s -> a -> String |
| 17:05:57 | hackage | uniqueness-periods-vector-examples 0.12.3.1 - Usage examples for the uniqueness-periods-vector series of packages https://hackage.haskell.org/package/uniqueness-periods-vector-examples-0.12.3.1 (OleksandrZhabenko) |
| 17:06:04 | <monochrom> | How do you like that monster? >:) |
| 17:06:36 | <monochrom> | err |
| 17:06:43 | <monochrom> | show :: (ShowStyle s, Show a) => Proxy s -> a -> String |
| 17:08:57 | <geekosaur> | don't forget Text :) |
| 17:09:20 | <monochrom> | Ah dammit. |
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| 17:09:33 | <monochrom> | show :: (ShowStyle s, Show a, IsString t) => Proxy s -> a -> t |
| 17:10:02 | <monochrom> | Multiple dispatch at its finest. |
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| 17:11:04 | <Uniaika> | tbh, Show is good enough for debugging |
| 17:11:12 | <monochrom> | CLOS be like "we figured that out 40 years ago, what took you so long" |
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| 17:11:35 | <Uniaika> | monochrom: what did it bring on the table? |
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| 17:12:04 | <monochrom> | Multiple dispatch. |
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| 17:21:35 | <ezzieyguywuf> | if you were going to write a web app in which (1) there's a drag/drop interface, (2) users can put stuff together in an order of their choosing with some limitations, (3) the output is a configured part number and an image displaying the configuration...what language would you use? |
| 17:21:42 | <ezzieyguywuf> | I've never done something like this for a website |
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| 17:22:34 | <shapr> | well, I'd use Haskell but I've a decent chunk of experience building webapps in Haskell |
| 17:23:06 | <shapr> | ezzieyguywuf: if it's for work, use what your team uses? if it's for fun, use what looks like the most fun? |
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| 17:23:27 | hackage | http-conduit-downloader 1.1.2 - HTTP downloader tailored for web-crawler needs. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/http-conduit-downloader-1.1.2 (VladimirShabanov) |
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| 17:24:07 | <shapr> | I think there should be a 20th anniversary celebration for #haskell |
| 17:24:26 | <shapr> | that's a mere 28 weeks away! |
| 17:24:29 | <ezzieyguywuf> | it's for work but we're not software guys |
| 17:24:34 | <ezzieyguywuf> | so it's just kind of my fun side project |
| 17:24:55 | <ezzieyguywuf> | I'm not averse to using haskell, but I think we might hire a software dude in india to do it and I'll manage him. |
| 17:25:02 | <ezzieyguywuf> | just trying to figure out what sort of technologies are out there |
| 17:25:17 | <shapr> | it sounds like a decent sized web app |
| 17:25:23 | <ski> | shapr : 'twas in 2001 ? |
| 17:25:39 | <ezzieyguywuf> | shapr: yea, it's def. not a quicky |
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| 17:25:45 | <shapr> | ski: according to chanserv Registered : Apr 30 22:22:56 2001 (19y 24w 3d ago) |
| 17:26:12 | <vincenz> | shapr: Hey! |
| 17:26:21 | <ski> | wasn't it at OpenProjects, some time before that ? |
| 17:26:24 | <shapr> | ezzieyguywuf: My suggestion is to create a prototype in whatever language you enjoy most, and possibly hire someone to rewrite it in whatever language is most easily maintained by that person? |
| 17:26:27 | <monochrom> | "28 weeks later" |
| 17:26:44 | <shapr> | howdy vincenz! long time no see! What're you doing these days? |
| 17:27:09 | ski | idly recalls having to switch server host to connect to, with ircII, at some point |
| 17:27:11 | <monochrom> | Too bad it is not April 1. |
| 17:27:13 | <vincenz> | shapr: I'm still at Google, working on Maps, though now living in the US. you? |
| 17:27:24 | <ezzieyguywuf> | shapr: that's not a bad idea. |
| 17:27:27 | <shapr> | ski: I thought freenode was the new name for openprojects? jag glömmer, det var förmycket tiden |
| 17:27:40 | <ezzieyguywuf> | aren't there, like, a handful of languages that are the "go to" for this type of stuff on the web though? |
| 17:27:44 | <ezzieyguywuf> | i.e. javascript, ruby? |
| 17:27:58 | <ezzieyguywuf> | I don't really know, like I said I've got like 0 experience making stuff for the web outside of basic html |
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| 17:28:03 | <ski> | yes, but we still needed to connect using a different domain name |
| 17:28:05 | <shapr> | vincenz: writing Haskell for a living. living in the DC area while my employer is in Boston |
| 17:28:11 | <dsal> | ezzieyguywuf: javascript is what browsers speak, but it's not necessarily how you need to speak to the browser. |
| 17:28:30 | <ezzieyguywuf> | vincenz: you work on google maps? that's awesome, that's a great piece of software. |
| 17:28:35 | <shapr> | ezzieyguywuf: you could do 99% of what you need entirely on the server side, it depends on what's most comfortable for you |
| 17:28:36 | <dsal> | You can write haskell or elm or something on the browser side, and haskell on the server side. |
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| 17:29:05 | <ezzieyguywuf> | shapr: hrm, that's starting to make sense to me. I think I need to educate myself on how this web stuff works, maybe do a small toy project |
| 17:29:17 | <shapr> | ezzieyguywuf: if you have any questions, I'm happy to help! |
| 17:29:23 | <ezzieyguywuf> | 👍 |
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| 17:29:43 | <shapr> | my last year's project was a web app in Haskell that was 99% server side: https://github.com/shapr/fermatslastmargin/ |
| 17:29:46 | <vincenz> | ezzieyguywuf: Thanks! |
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| 17:29:56 | <vincenz> | shapr: I guess that's the new normal |
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| 17:30:02 | <monochrom> | ezzieyguywuf: Javascript is native for GUI in a web browser. However, if you like, many languages can be compiled to Javascript. Haskell (using GHCJS), Clojure, ... |
| 17:30:18 | <vincenz> | monochrom: don't forget typescript :) |
| 17:30:34 | <monochrom> | But GHCJS is a bit difficult to install. They say "just use Nix". |
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| 17:32:34 | <bliminse> | ezzieyguywuf: you may also want to consider the candidate pool that each language has. for frontend javascript definitely is number 1, and if you decide to split into backend/front I'm pretty certain Haskell |
| 17:32:47 | <bliminse> | will limit your options way more than a language like java to be honest |
| 17:33:01 | <ezzieyguywuf> | bliminse: yea, this is the type of stuff I was curious about too. |
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| 17:33:21 | <maerwald> | monochrom: if nix is the only way to install something... makes you wonder why |
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| 17:35:48 | <gentauro> | is there a Haskell project that reminds of `.NET LINQ`? |
| 17:35:52 | <phadej> | finding a skillful person who enjoys writing web-backend java feels to be a hard (or costly) task |
| 17:35:59 | <gentauro> | I want to get inspired :) |
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| 17:36:23 | <gentauro> | phadej: doesn't those people write Scala? |
| 17:36:26 | <dolio> | GHC has extended linq-like monad comprehensions, doesn't it? |
| 17:36:40 | <maerwald> | Scala devs are expensive |
| 17:36:44 | <gentauro> | phadej: a know many and they are pretty happy about writing Scala for $$$ |
| 17:36:58 | <phadej> | gentauro: Scala would "limit your candidate pool" in the same way Haskell :) |
| 17:37:01 | <geekosaur> | yes, at least for now; I've heard at least one proposal to remove them due to lack of use |
| 17:37:31 | <gentauro> | phadej: but reaching out to Scala devs, would increase software quality |
| 17:37:41 | <phadej> | :) |
| 17:37:51 | <maerwald> | gentauro: why? |
| 17:38:28 | <phadej> | I thing that [scala devs increasing software quality] is a sarcastic comment |
| 17:38:29 | <gentauro> | maerwald: at least the people I know that write Scala for food are pretty competent :) |
| 17:38:48 | <maerwald> | gentauro: that's a weird conclusion then |
| 17:39:21 | <gentauro> | maerwald: I will not talk bad about people working with other `tech stacks`, but it's very clear who I would work with ;) |
| 17:39:22 | <hseg> | merijn: it ended up not being that much more efficient than a straight map |
| 17:39:46 | <hseg> | *shrugs* happens |
| 17:40:00 | <maerwald> | gentauro: I've worked with javascript devs who were pretty high on the engineer skill scale |
| 17:40:14 | <maerwald> | I don't think the language has anything to do with it, it's just community bias |
| 17:40:38 | <maerwald> | it might be true that low-slikk is less annoying in haskell |
| 17:40:44 | <maerwald> | but that's a different thing |
| 17:40:54 | <maerwald> | s/low-slikk/low-skill/ |
| 17:40:56 | <gentauro> | maerwald: lucky you. I worked with JS "peeps" (I wouldn't even call them devs) that didn't know what they were doing |
| 17:41:18 | <maerwald> | you have the same in haskell, except that jobs are harder to get |
| 17:41:23 | <gentauro> | maerwald: my point is that it's very difficult to hear that sentence with people working with Scala ;) |
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| 17:41:35 | <merijn> | maerwald: i think that's not entirely true |
| 17:41:43 | <gentauro> | s/Scala/FP/ |
| 17:42:13 | <merijn> | maerwald: I think there is a historical (and decreasing) higher average skill in the Haskell community, but as it grows and expands it regresses back to the mean |
| 17:42:55 | <maerwald> | which is a good thing |
| 17:43:16 | <merijn> | Simply from sheer selection bias of "who feels attracted to small niche languages" |
| 17:43:31 | <gentauro> | btw, I can see that I just jumped into the disccusion :) but did anybody see my question? 19:35 < gentauro> is there a Haskell project that reminds of `.NET LINQ`? |
| 17:43:34 | <gentauro> | xD |
| 17:44:25 | <dolio> | I answered it. |
| 17:44:30 | <dolio> | And you didn't read it. |
| 17:44:51 | <gentauro> | dolio: you didn't tagged me :P |
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| 17:45:16 | <phadej> | gentauro: https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/glasgow_exts.html#extension-MonadComprehensions |
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| 17:45:24 | <[exa]> | Hm so sometimes when starting a scotty app on a mac, I'm getting: "file descriptor 202794296 out of range for select (0--1024). Recompile with -threaded to work around this. Is there any good explanation of what's happening? |
| 17:45:29 | <phadej> | here go your tag. |
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| 17:46:05 | <monochrom> | There is also this angle: If you can learn several different languages --- and very different, having learned n-1 of them doesn't help learning the nth one --- it is a good show of what your mind can do. |
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| 17:46:34 | <gentauro> | phadej: and dolio: it's just what I was looking for. Thx |
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| 17:47:41 | <merijn> | [exa]: "you need to recompile with -threaded"? :p |
| 17:47:52 | <merijn> | [exa]: Looks like you hit a limitation of the non-threaded RTS |
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| 17:48:06 | <ghoulguy> | I bet 202794296 isn't a real file descriptor |
| 17:48:20 | <merijn> | Also that |
| 17:48:57 | <[exa]> | well yeah, the question is where this came from (can't find anything reasonable). I'm not aware of anything in the app that could break such stuff, it just starts scotty in a perfectly normal way, no magic, no workarounds, no nothing |
| 17:49:09 | <monochrom> | threaded RTS is not going to get a higher quota for file descriptors. |
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| 17:49:42 | <merijn> | Well, it looks like he hit a *select* limit |
| 17:49:47 | <geekosaur> | but it may use poll instead of select() which by inherent design has a low file descriptor limit |
| 17:49:48 | <merijn> | Not a file descriptor limit |
| 17:49:48 | <ghoulguy> | The -threaded bit is a distraction. Something is generating or corrupting an invalid file descriptor |
| 17:50:07 | <Ariakenom> | threaded rts behaves nicer in a bunch of ways, right? |
| 17:50:14 | <merijn> | Ariakenom: Yes |
| 17:50:16 | <geekosaur> | that said, I agree that does not look to me like it was a valid fd in the first place |
| 17:50:36 | <merijn> | Ariakenom: You probably always want the threaded RTS (but with parallel GC disabled! which should become the default sometime soon-ish) |
| 17:50:37 | <monochrom> | However, non-threaded RTS asks for periodic SIGVTALRM, this can interfere with syscalls, and after a long story may lead to weird return values. |
| 17:51:20 | <merijn> | The parallel GC is bad in most cases, unless you know what you're doing |
| 17:51:22 | <Ariakenom> | merijn: soonTM :p. It's been the less buggy ines for years I think |
| 17:51:32 | <Ariakenom> | less buggy one |
| 17:51:40 | <ghoulguy> | OK, it could be the case that the non-threaded runtime is completely broken and shouldn't be used and in this case error message recommendation coincidentally applies |
| 17:51:44 | <[exa]> | like, I shall just compile with threaded and hope that this stops happening (the random nature of this occurring is what scares me), but a better explanation that "please just workaround" would be really cool |
| 17:52:12 | <[exa]> | certainly the number is not a valid FD |
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| 17:53:12 | <geekosaur> | especially not on a Mac which has rather low fd limits out of the box, unlike linux |
| 17:53:20 | <[exa]> | yeah |
| 17:53:37 | <[exa]> | "non-threaded runtime is completely broken" oh noes |
| 17:53:50 | <monochrom> | Hrm, this can be very evil. |
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| 17:53:56 | <geekosaur> | well, I wouldnt say completely broken, but it's not very stable |
| 17:54:03 | <[exa]> | I can collect versions of everything just for reference |
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| 17:54:15 | <[exa]> | (it's not my box in particular) |
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| 17:54:56 | <merijn> | [exa]: It's not "completely broken", but there's a bunch of libraries that cannot work correctly with it (for example, process) |
| 17:55:56 | <geekosaur> | process can't work correctly anyway :/ |
| 17:55:56 | <monochrom> | Here is the evil possibility. The suggestion "use -threaded" may be a blanket suggestion that applies to other scenerios but not yours. |
| 17:56:00 | <merijn> | Just remember "+RTS -qg" :p (or use -with-rtsopts) |
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| 17:57:14 | <ghoulguy> | Why -qg? |
| 17:57:33 | <geekosaur> | disable parallel gc, I think |
| 17:57:38 | <merijn> | Disables parallel GC |
| 17:57:45 | <ghoulguy> | Yeah, I gathered that much |
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| 17:58:17 | <geekosaur> | because that's only useful with specific workloads currently, as already discussed (and comes up in here every couple weeks) |
| 17:58:25 | <merijn> | ghoulguy: Because parallel GC often causes *huge* slowdown, an order of magnitude in my own code |
| 17:59:38 | <ghoulguy> | Do you know what kinds of workloads it is good for? |
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| 18:00:52 | <merijn> | No clue, haven't seen one yet :p |
| 18:01:15 | <merijn> | And even when it's good you'll want to explicitly configure how many parallel threads, instead of 1 per capability |
| 18:01:50 | <monochrom> | Yeah, I now feel that perhaps the non-threaded RTS was not the cause, rather the messenger. It notices bad FDs more often because of its other limitations. If you switch to the threaded RTS, you are not eliminating the cause, only eliminating a messenger. |
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| 18:09:20 | <nihilazo> | is it true that ghc can only cross-compile itself and not other programs? Why? |
| 18:09:24 | <nihilazo> | (I'm struggling with compiling stuff on my slow tablet that keeps freezing up) |
| 18:10:24 | <monochrom> | I don't know whether it's true, and I don't know why. But may I tell you an Aesop fable? |
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| 18:10:59 | <monochrom> | A group of mice organized a conference to discuss how to deal with the threat from the cat. |
| 18:11:23 | <phadej> | a/wg 32 |
| 18:11:29 | <phadej> | err |
| 18:11:34 | <monochrom> | They all agreed that a bell needed to be put on the cat so the mice could get early warning. |
| 18:11:47 | <monochrom> | They also agreed that someone else should do it. |
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| 18:14:29 | <nihilazo> | I don't understand compiler-fu enough to add something like that to ghc, if that's what you're suggesting |
| 18:14:47 | <monochrom> | No. |
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| 18:15:25 | <ghoulguy> | nihilazo: Maybe you're the cat in this story? \o/ |
| 18:15:42 | ghoulguy | puts a bell on nihilazo just in case. |
| 18:15:45 | <nihilazo> | I don't really understand this story |
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| 18:16:02 | <monochrom> | But instead of looking for a technical reason why something isn't done, it is usually much simpler to look for an economic reason. |
| 18:16:31 | <ghoulguy> | I think the first question is just "is this the case?" |
| 18:17:24 | <davean> | nihilazo: why do you think GHC can only cross compile its self? |
| 18:18:04 | <nihilazo> | I remember being told that before, although it may be totally untrue |
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| 18:18:28 | <dsal> | I use hugs to run ghc. |
| 18:18:41 | <davean> | GHC is just a Haskell program |
| 18:18:57 | <davean> | You need things like iserv to cross compile if TH is involved |
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| 18:20:45 | <nihilazo> | ah, it seems that you can build ghc to work as a cross compiler |
| 18:21:00 | <nihilazo> | why did I not know this before |
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| 18:24:36 | <nihilazo> | seems like it's a bit of a pain though |
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| 18:31:46 | <davean> | cross compilation always is, and I'm not sure why other than for GHC you'd want to do it. |
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| 18:34:14 | <geekosaur> | gcc can only cross-compile because all the real work is done by separate programs behind the "gcc" wrapper |
| 18:34:49 | <geekosaur> | each group of separate programs is specific to a host and target |
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| 18:35:22 | <geekosaur> | (which is also how the gcc wrapper can also compile c++, ada, etc. if you have those backends installed) |
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| 18:36:58 | <zwarag> | I'm having the troubles to understand how exactly is " f <= n `div` 2 " as seen in this SO answer interpreded ? f<=n is a Bool right? and is this casted automatically to 0 or 1 to be "{0 or 1} `div` 2"? https://stackoverflow.com/questions/24982800/haskell-factors-of-a-natural-number/24983236#24983236 |
| 18:37:30 | <monochrom> | f <= (n `div` 2) |
| 18:37:42 | <zwarag> | merci |
| 18:39:03 | <merijn> | zwarag: There are no auto-casts in haskell, ever |
| 18:39:33 | <merijn> | zwarag: So logically it'd either be a type error or you got the bracketing wrong. You can figure out the bracketing by asking ghci for the fixity of operators |
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| 18:39:47 | <merijn> | % :i (<=) |
| 18:39:48 | <yahb> | merijn: type Ord :: * -> Constraint; class Eq a => Ord a where; ...; (<=) :: a -> a -> Bool; ...; -- Defined in `GHC.Classes'; infix 4 <= |
| 18:39:51 | <merijn> | % :i `div` |
| 18:39:52 | <yahb> | merijn: type Integral :: * -> Constraint; class (Real a, Enum a) => Integral a where; ...; div :: a -> a -> a; ...; -- Defined in `GHC.Real'; infixl 7 `div` |
| 18:40:11 | <merijn> | So <= has fixity 4 and `div` has 7, meaning `div` binds more tightly |
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| 18:53:28 | hackage | pandoc 2.11.0.1 - Conversion between markup formats https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pandoc-2.11.0.1 (JohnMacFarlane) |
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| 19:16:28 | hackage | calamity 0.1.21.0 - A library for writing discord bots in haskell https://hackage.haskell.org/package/calamity-0.1.21.0 (nitros12) |
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| 20:12:58 | hackage | time 1.11 - A time library https://hackage.haskell.org/package/time-1.11 (AshleyYakeley) |
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| 20:58:57 | hackage | j 0.1.1.0 - J in Haskell https://hackage.haskell.org/package/j-0.1.1.0 (vmchale) |
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| 21:04:49 | <christo> | anyone know if can set cabal build to refer to cabal v1-build? it's so my haskell language server works with a certain project |
| 21:05:09 | <christo> | this projects only builds with v1- prefix |
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| 21:05:25 | <christo> | but haskell language server uses build by default i think |
| 21:05:34 | <monochrom> | Cannot. But you could either use an older version, or write a shell script to do the translation. |
| 21:05:56 | <monochrom> | To be sure, it may be a bad idea to go back to an older version. :) |
| 21:06:06 | <christo> | i tried using cabal 2.4 |
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| 21:06:13 | <christo> | and it still had issues with that |
| 21:06:45 | <christo> | in that case is there a way to tell haskell language server to use v1- instead? |
| 21:06:54 | <monochrom> | It is very strange that v2- doesn't build that project. Maybe better to debug that instead. |
| 21:06:59 | <Uniaika> | why is that a problem, christo? |
| 21:07:05 | <Uniaika> | why do you need v1-? |
| 21:07:22 | <monochrom> | Because v1- won't be around forever. |
| 21:07:32 | <christo> | https://github.com/Euterpea/Euterpea2 |
| 21:07:36 | <monochrom> | To be sure, we're talking about 5 years into the future. |
| 21:07:36 | <christo> | is the project |
| 21:07:58 | <christo> | and i can built it with v1-build |
| 21:08:30 | <christo> | but haskell language server in vs code uses default "cabal build" to do it's ide features |
| 21:08:46 | <christo> | i want to use the project with ide support/features working |
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| 21:11:55 | <Patrick24> | Is anyone available to help me out with this: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/64360903/trouble-with-xmonad-handleeventhook |
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| 21:12:13 | <monochrom> | Ah, custom Setup.hs. Now how do I convince it to use a modern Cabal lib? |
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| 21:13:24 | <monochrom> | Let's give --allow-newer a try. |
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| 21:14:16 | <dcoutts> | monochrom: using the "custom-setup" section |
| 21:14:16 | <dcoutts> | https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-package.html#custom-setup-scripts |
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| 21:14:34 | <dcoutts> | and constraining the Cabal version in setup-depends |
| 21:14:51 | <monochrom> | Ah nice. Thanks. This is for christo. |
| 21:14:53 | <Uniaika> | Patrick24: any reason you're not asking on the #Xmonad channel? |
| 21:15:18 | <monochrom> | Also, my blunt --allow-newer got passed that barrier. (But now I need to install asound-dev or something) |
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| 21:16:28 | <monochrom> | libasound-dev |
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| 21:21:02 | <proofofme> | I wish cabal operated like yarn or npm |
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| 21:22:30 | <hpc> | each package can only have a single installed version? |
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| 21:23:13 | <proofofme> | well, `cabal install` doesn't add to the cabal file ... and it creates a dependency nightmare, from what I found out the hard way the last few days |
| 21:23:47 | <hpc> | ah |
| 21:24:55 | <hpc> | rpm has the same issue, it's pretty trivial to create an rpm that doesn't have a declared dependency it's supposed to |
| 21:25:00 | <christo> | monochrom dcoutts did u guys figure it out? |
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| 21:25:32 | <monochrom> | Yes. Final testing. |
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| 21:25:51 | <monochrom> | @paste |
| 21:25:51 | <lambdabot> | A pastebin: https://paste.debian.net/ |
| 21:25:55 | <monochrom> | err |
| 21:25:57 | <monochrom> | @where paste |
| 21:25:57 | <lambdabot> | Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at eg https://paste.tomsmeding.com |
| 21:26:57 | <monochrom> | And pasting patched *.cabal file |
| 21:27:23 | <christo> | brb |
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| 21:29:40 | <monochrom> | christo: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/bLH1voGn |
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| 21:38:00 | <christo> | monochrom just on a call will check it out in a mo |
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| 21:43:06 | <proofofme> | I created a new project just to make things cleaner and I am trying to link mysql-haskell. I keep getting an error. I pasted my cabal file and error output to https://pastebin.com/raw/7bu2xSnm |
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| 21:47:19 | <monochrom> | Interesting, I just need an empty custom-setup section, I don't need to write setup-depends. |
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| 21:54:22 | <proofofme> | Do y'all know how to fix the dependency error on https://pastebin.com/raw/7bu2xSnm ? |
| 21:54:25 | <yushyin> | proofofme: if I read it correctly the memory package is rejecting base>=4.13, you will need <4.13. Maybe you should try an older ghc with base-4.12 |
| 21:55:18 | <monochrom> | Use --allow-newer again? >:) |
| 21:55:31 | <monochrom> | can be more refined: --allow-newer=base |
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| 21:57:02 | <yushyin> | or allow-newer=memory, because mysql-haskell rejects memory-0.15, but memory-0.15 supports base<5 |
| 21:57:53 | <proofofme> | like this `$ cabal run :clay-sniper --minimize-conflict-set --allow-newer=memory`? |
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| 22:02:43 | <christo> | monochrom this worked for you? allowed it to work with haskell-language-server in vs code? |
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| 22:03:14 | <monochrom> | I don't use HLS. But "cabal build" succeeds. |
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| 22:06:25 | <yushyin> | proofofme: you may try, but it may go wrong and will not succeed |
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| 22:07:31 | <proofofme> | it didn't succeed ... |
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| 22:07:50 | <proofofme> | figuring out how to set ghc to older version with base-4.12 rn |
| 22:07:55 | <yushyin> | sometimes upper bounds have a valid raison d'etre :) |
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| 22:08:04 | <proofofme> | ha true |
| 22:08:04 | <christo> | monochrom thx, trying now |
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| 22:08:23 | <monochrom> | "ghcup list" lists GHC versions with base versions. |
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| 22:08:36 | <christo> | monochrom what version of cabal did you use? |
| 22:08:39 | <christo> | and ghc |
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| 22:08:59 | <monochrom> | GHC 8.8.4, cabal-install 3.2.0.0 |
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| 22:09:18 | hekkaidekapus_ | is now known as hekkaidekapus |
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| 22:09:27 | <christo> | ok |
| 22:09:30 | <christo> | thx |
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| 22:10:36 | <hekkaidekapus> | proofofme: If you don’t want to patch mysql-haskell like the patched package in the parallel thread, use ghc-8.6.5. <https://matrix.hackage.haskell.org/#/package/mysql-haskell> |
| 22:11:22 | <koz_> | I would recommend using ghc-8.6.5 unless you really need something which demands 8.8. |
| 22:11:24 | <koz_> | It's easier. |
| 22:11:29 | <proofofme> | yup, used `ghcup set 8.6.5` just now. now trying to figure out how to install it ... I'm pretty new to non-trivial classroom Haskell lol |
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| 22:11:41 | <monochrom> | proofofme: "cabal build -w ghc-4.2" is the syntax |
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| 22:12:06 | <monochrom> | in case you don't want to statefully do "ghcup set" |
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| 22:13:33 | <hekkaidekapus> | proofofme: monochrom is saying `cabal build clay-sniper:exe:clay-sniper -w ghc-8.6.5` when you will be done the ghcup command. |
| 22:13:33 | <monochrom> | To be sure, "cabal ... -w ghc-4.2" is an oxymoron in itself :) |
| 22:13:56 | <christo> | monochrom it seems to be working with haskell-language-server in vs code now, thx |
| 22:14:02 | <christo> | what exactly did your changes do/mean? |
| 22:14:03 | <monochrom> | Oh if you have done "ghcup set ..." then you don't need the -w thing. |
| 22:14:13 | <monochrom> | See the diff |
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| 22:14:23 | <christo> | i saw the diff |
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| 22:14:33 | <monochrom> | Ah OK. |
| 22:14:37 | <christo> | but how did you/why did you find to add teh setup thing |
| 22:14:55 | <monochrom> | HCodec needs a newer version, 0.5.1 is no longer compatible with today's libraries. |
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| 22:15:32 | <monochrom> | the "custom-setup" section says to not insist on using old libraries for Setup.hs |
| 22:15:49 | <monochrom> | (instead, implicitly, whatever comes with the compiler) |
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| 22:16:50 | <monochrom> | Ah how did I find out I needed them. |
| 22:17:03 | <christo> | ye, that aswell |
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| 22:17:13 | <monochrom> | I started with a very blunt --allow-newer to check that something succeeds. |
| 22:17:33 | <larou> | well, i have checked every language - and i cant express cyclic trees in any of them |
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| 22:17:41 | <larou> | how fruitless |
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| 22:18:07 | <monochrom> | Well one thing I know from the error messages is that cabal-install was trying an old Cabal lib version for Setup.hs. |
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| 22:18:35 | <larou> | all i learned is how haskell is the best / only language that even comes close |
| 22:18:47 | <monochrom> | After I got past that, I noticed that HCodec-0.5.1 had an incompatibility. |
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| 22:19:08 | <monochrom> | And those were the only two obstacles, it turned out. |
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| 22:19:29 | <monochrom> | So, observations, hypotheses, observations again, repeat |
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| 22:20:09 | <monochrom> | Yeah I know right, nothing can express cyclic trees. |
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| 22:20:22 | <hekkaidekapus> | larou: The standard list type in Haskell is a linked list. You don’t need to extend anything, just use it. (I’m referring to your post in #ghc.) |
| 22:20:23 | <larou> | i also learned that in a world of 10 billion people, and a plethora of computing languages - there is not that many people on IRC |
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| 22:20:59 | <larou> | on #ghc i wrote; |
| 22:21:00 | <larou> | is there any way to extend the keyword "data" to include cyclic references, such as for expressing linked lists? |
| 22:21:06 | <monochrom> | or an unmovable unstoppable data structure for that matter in the same genre. |
| 22:21:08 | <larou> | i meant doubly linked lists |
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| 22:22:13 | <proofofme> | it's still building ... so I think it's going to work. why did this `cabal build clay-sniper:exe:clay-sniper -w ghc-8.6.5` end up working? |
| 22:22:13 | <larou> | monochrom: nothing compelling anyway |
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| 22:22:45 | <monochrom> | probably because ghc-8.6.5 |
| 22:23:08 | <monochrom> | an older base version that your dependencies insist |
| 22:24:07 | <hekkaidekapus> | larou: In that case too, you don’t need to ‘extend data’. |
| 22:24:10 | <larou> | im not sure what to do now... |
| 22:24:28 | <monochrom> | I guess I should write an updated tutorial on the cabal model so people don't just treat it as a black box. |
| 22:24:28 | <larou> | hekkaidekapus: you do, if you want to express that fucntionality at type level |
| 22:24:37 | <hekkaidekapus> | Did you try Hackage? |
| 22:24:40 | <larou> | otherwise its just a record filed |
| 22:24:46 | <larou> | field* |
| 22:25:04 | <larou> | hekkaidekapus: for an alternative data keyword!? |
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| 22:25:38 | <hekkaidekapus> | Okay, I get it. You’re not very familiar with Haskell. |
| 22:25:54 | <hekkaidekapus> | @hackage data-cycle |
| 22:25:54 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/data-cycle |
| 22:26:00 | <christo> | monochrom cool man, cheers |
| 22:26:06 | <hekkaidekapus> | larou: ^^^ |
| 22:26:09 | <larou> | hekkaidekapus: any time i want to "tie the knot" i can only do so using a function. nothing at type level |
| 22:26:26 | <larou> | hekkaidekapus: its literally impossible that could be doing what im describing |
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| 22:26:41 | <hekkaidekapus> | larou: paste what you have so far. |
| 22:26:53 | <hekkaidekapus> | @where paste -- larou |
| 22:26:53 | <lambdabot> | Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at eg https://paste.tomsmeding.com |
| 22:27:04 | <larou> | data Cycle a = MkCycle Int (DList a) |
| 22:27:13 | <larou> | data DList a = MkDList (DList a) a (DList a) |
| 22:27:29 | <larou> | what differentiates the usage of those 2 DLists in data DList? |
| 22:28:12 | <larou> | always we have "downwards" references, and any time we want to make it seem like a "backwards" or "upwards" reference, this has to be done by a mechanism at value level |
| 22:28:16 | <larou> | not at type level |
| 22:28:23 | <larou> | thats why i asked in #ghc |
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| 22:29:20 | <larou> | hekkaidekapus: i dont use anything except pastebin.com and github after i lost about a years worth of references on lpaste |
| 22:29:28 | <monochrom> | Then you can give up now. For at least 5 more years Haskell won't have cyclic data structures at the type level. |
| 22:29:43 | <larou> | exactly! |
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| 22:29:51 | <larou> | so wft am i supposed to do!? |
| 22:30:13 | <larou> | just prepare abstractions that it will satisfy in the mean time? |
| 22:30:20 | <monochrom> | That's a question better posed to a counsellor or life coach. |
| 22:31:00 | <larou> | yeah, they could prescribe me some dank nugs to help me cope with this existential nightmare |
| 22:31:34 | <larou> | well, one other thing i wanted was something like ListT done right but for graphs... |
| 22:31:59 | <larou> | so i could have something like IOGraph for emulating interacting servers in the ST monad |
| 22:32:42 | <larou> | oh yeah, thats still graphs... i *suppose* i could use Int lookup graphs. but i have done *so much work* to avoid doing that! |
| 22:33:25 | <larou> | though i suppose it world force me to get the abstractions, like stencil convolutions, nearest neighbour access, etc. formulated |
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| 22:52:57 | hackage | formatting 7.1.1 - Combinator-based type-safe formatting (like printf() or FORMAT) https://hackage.haskell.org/package/formatting-7.1.1 (AlexChapman) |
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| 23:01:28 | hackage | churros 0.1.1.0 - Channel/Arrow based streaming computation library. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/churros-0.1.1.0 (LyndonMaydwell) |
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| 23:18:07 | <christo> | monochrom why & what do you use haskell for? |
| 23:18:18 | <christo> | i'm obviously completely new to it |
| 23:18:42 | <christo> | i'm learning it because of "haskell school of music" for my dissertation project |
| 23:18:57 | <christo> | which is about learning computer music concepts and Euterpea Haskell Lib |
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| 23:24:11 | chris | is now known as Guest34530 |
| 23:24:49 | <Guest34530> | hello |
| 23:25:25 | <yushyin> | hello Guest34530 |
| 23:25:38 | <christo> | it's me, just testing a mac irc client |
| 23:25:53 | <yushyin> | hello christo :) |
| 23:25:55 | <christo> | what do ya'll guys use haskell for? |
| 23:25:57 | <christo> | hey ! |
| 23:26:26 | <peutri> | most everything |
| 23:26:31 | <Axman6> | christo: not that you asked, but I've been using Haskell professionally for about 6 years (with a few shorter jobs using it before that) I've used it in finance, on a high frequency trading system, made web services with it for geospacial data, and plenty of data processing along with that, I've used it for large scale data processing on the cloud with a lambda-and-queues architecture, and now work on a system in a Haskell derived language to |
| 23:26:32 | <Axman6> | replace a critical part of one of the largest stock exchanges infrastructure |
| 23:26:45 | <Axman6> | (ok, in the time I took me to write that you did ask) |
| 23:27:53 | <christo> | cool |
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| 23:28:11 | <christo> | why would it be good for computer music? and why use it atall over other languages |
| 23:28:34 | <christo> | i've seen a lot of people use it for computer music |
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| 23:29:11 | <christo> | Axman6 on enterprise/commercial scale haskell projects, what build tools/tools do u use? |
| 23:29:13 | <Axman6> | I don't think there's anything in particulaar that makes it good for computer music specifically. but overall, the incredibly powerful type system lets you get your thoughts in order, in a way that can be reliably checked |
| 23:30:05 | <frdg> | christo: Here is a nice video about making music with haskell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYTZkE5BZ-0 |
| 23:30:21 | <Axman6> | in the past I used stack mostly, but it is(or was) somewhat more optimised for app development, as opposed to library development, which worked well in a commercial setting |
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| 23:31:02 | <christo> | Axman6 why should i learn haskell? does it allow me to do things say Java couldn't? |
| 23:32:01 | <christo> | or is it purely because people like the way it forces you to write code |
| 23:32:12 | <Axman6> | no, most languages are turing complete and therefore equivalent, by sme definition. but the pleasure of doing it will be quite different, and some languages let you express a lot more with a lot less text |
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| 23:32:53 | <Axman6> | there are many many things which are much nicer in Haskell than other languages though. |
| 23:33:13 | <Axman6> | writing reusable code is a pleasure, since the type system allows us to be very generic about our types |
| 23:33:16 | <christo> | so haskell is about the elegance of the code that is being written itself |
| 23:33:31 | <Axman6> | I wouldn't say that's what it's about |
| 23:34:10 | <christo> | i'll have to look into it more :) |
| 23:34:31 | <christo> | can i do multi-threading n' stuff in haskell? |
| 23:34:51 | <Axman6> | Haskell is probably one of the best languages for doing concurrent programming in |
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| 23:36:32 | <Axman6> | for two reasons - the purity of functions and lack of mutability mean that a lot of the problems with concurrency are eliminated unless you are explicit about them. GHC's multithreading system is one of the most lightweight implementations of any languages, you can happily run hundreds, thousands, or even tens of thousands of threads - network servers are usually implemented by just making a new thread per connection |
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| 23:39:07 | <christo> | cool |
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| 23:39:56 | <christo> | in haskell do you have the notion of instances (objects) like in java? |
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| 23:40:22 | <Axman6> | we just have data, which is immutable. we do not have objects |
| 23:40:27 | <christo> | thx frdg |
| 23:40:36 | <Axman6> | @sec Bool |
| 23:40:36 | <lambdabot> | data Bool = False | True deriving (Eq, Ord) |
| 23:40:48 | <Axman6> | @src Maybe |
| 23:40:48 | <lambdabot> | data Maybe a = Nothing | Just a |
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| 23:41:44 | <koz_> | Is there something like 'foldMapA :: (Applicative m, Monoid n, Traversable t) => (a -> m n) -> t a -> m n |
| 23:41:45 | Axman6 | (is in a meeting and will be back later) |
| 23:41:46 | <koz_> | ' |
| 23:41:47 | <christo> | cause' i was thinking how would one use haskell to write a game with 20 instances of Frog for example. but i'm sure there's a way |
| 23:42:06 | <koz_> | christo: An instance is just a data value. |
| 23:42:14 | <koz_> | So you'd just have 20 things of type Frog. |
| 23:42:19 | <christo> | cheers for info Axman6 appreciate it |
| 23:42:40 | <christo> | i see |
| 23:43:35 | <koz_> | I mean, I guess it's just 'foldMapA f = unAp . foldMap (Ap . f)'. |
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| 23:46:25 | <MarcelineVQ> | koz_: fold where Monoid (m n) |
| 23:47:01 | <koz_> | MarcelineVQ: Yeah, which is easiest to get here when we use Ap, rite? |
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| 23:47:42 | <MarcelineVQ> | seems like it, and foldMap as you did since you wanted to apply some f as well which I overlooked somewhow |
| 23:48:27 | <hekkaidekapus> | @hoogle (Applicative m, Monoid n, Traversable t) => (a -> m n) -> t a -> m n |
| 23:48:28 | <lambdabot> | Universum.Monad.Container concatMapM :: (Applicative f, Monoid m, Container (l m), Element (l m) ~ m, Traversable l) => (a -> f m) -> l a -> f m |
| 23:48:28 | <lambdabot> | Util foldMapA :: (Applicative p, Monoid b, Foldable f) => (a -> p b) -> f a -> p b |
| 23:48:28 | <lambdabot> | Data.FMList foldMapA :: (Foldable t, Applicative f, Monoid m) => (a -> f m) -> t a -> f m |
| 23:48:32 | <MarcelineVQ> | iow I added nothing of value :>> |
| 23:48:46 | <frdg> | would `otherwise` be considered a global variable? |
| 23:49:00 | <hekkaidekapus> | koz_: Let’s call it foldMapA :) |
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| 23:50:20 | <koz_> | @hoogle Ap |
| 23:50:21 | <lambdabot> | Data.Monoid newtype Ap f a |
| 23:50:21 | <lambdabot> | Data.Monoid Ap :: f a -> Ap f a |
| 23:50:21 | <lambdabot> | Test.Tasty.Runners newtype Ap f a |
| 23:50:43 | <MarcelineVQ> | frdg: interesting question, a global constant might be a better label, but even then I'm not sure I'd say that. |
| 23:51:06 | <MarcelineVQ> | *I wouldn't say that. |
| 23:51:31 | <frdg> | right, its not much of a variable. |
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| 23:55:37 | <frdg> | `f :: a -> Bool; f _ = otherwise`. I never thought to do this :) |
| 23:55:57 | <frdg> | could by my own style |
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All times are in UTC on 2020-10-14.