Logs on 2020-10-23 (freenode/#haskell)
| 00:00:01 | × | valli1 quits (~valli@139.28.218.148) () |
| 00:01:05 | × | tromp quits (~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 00:01:28 | <ski> | Guest18 : use `replicateM_'. also remove the `return ()'s |
| 00:02:10 | <Guest18> | Yeah, I know the returns are redundant |
| 00:02:11 | <ski> | Guest18 : `percentage' has redundant brackets. (also `(Num a) =>' could be `Num a =>') |
| 00:02:23 | <Guest18> | why replicateM_? |
| 00:02:37 | <ski> | because you don't care about the list of results, anyway |
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| 00:03:11 | <ski> | `replicateM n act' is when you want to get back a list of `n' results of executing `act' |
| 00:03:38 | <ski> | if you just want to do something `n' times, but don't care about collecting results in a list, it's better to use `replicateM_' |
| 00:04:11 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 00:04:20 | <Guest18> | doesn't the compiler optimize this stuff anyway? Or is it the more idiomatic way of doing things? |
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| 00:04:48 | <ski> | also, you could use `n <- readIO input_line :: IO Int'. in case of a parsing error, this will abort immediately, rather than when `n' is later used |
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| 00:05:22 | <ski> | also, you could replace that, and `input_line <- getLine', by `n <- readLn :: IO Int', which does both for you |
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| 00:05:49 | <ski> | Guest18 : it probably doesn't optimize it away, i think |
| 00:06:07 | <Guest18> | num key sub = foldr (\(x,y) b -> if x == y then b+1 else b) 0 $ zip key sub -- what about this? |
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| 00:07:31 | <ski> | (you could use `n :: Int <- readIO input_line' or `n :: Int <- readLn' instead, if you enable extension `ScopedTypeVariables'. this looks slightly more pretty. or you could just leave out the ascription, and let it infer that `n' is an `Int' (since it's passed to `replicateM_')) |
| 00:07:37 | <ski> | @type replicateM_ |
| 00:07:39 | <lambdabot> | Applicative m => Int -> m a -> m () |
| 00:07:40 | <ski> | @type replicateM |
| 00:07:41 | <lambdabot> | Applicative m => Int -> m a -> m [a] |
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| 00:08:29 | <ski> | yea, next thing i was going to comment on was that your `num' in the paste only works if the two lists (`String's ..) have the same length |
| 00:08:47 | <Guest18> | it's guaranteed that they are |
| 00:09:01 | <ski> | ok |
| 00:09:23 | <ski> | well, there's many different ways to do it |
| 00:09:41 | <Guest18> | how would you do it? |
| 00:10:11 | <ski> | you could e.g. filter the `zip key sub' list, keeping only the pairs in which the two components are equal to each other. then count how many pairs you have left |
| 00:10:25 | <ski> | you could use a list comprehension, if you want to |
| 00:11:06 | <ski> | if you're going to use a fold, then probably foldl' is better, here, btw |
| 00:11:23 | <simon> | 单子 is monad in chinese. |
| 00:11:50 | <ski> | in Leibniz' sense, too ? |
| 00:12:17 | <simon> | I think so. the dictionary says "(functional programming or philosophy) monad" -- I don't know if that encompasses math. |
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| 00:12:39 | <ski> | (personally i'd also not use `$' in there) |
| 00:12:40 | <simon> | I think only chinese mathematicians know. :) |
| 00:12:57 | <Guest18> | num key sub = length [(x,y) | (x,y) <- zip(key, sub), x == y] -- don't know if i wrote it correctly, but something like this maybe?> |
| 00:13:02 | <ski> | presumably it does, simon |
| 00:13:32 | <ski> | Guest18 : looks ok. although, instead of collecting `(x,y)' you could collect, say, `()' |
| 00:13:35 | <simon> | I wonder if right-associative function application in chinese is 'f ¥ x' |
| 00:13:46 | <Guest18> | ski: that makes sense |
| 00:13:51 | <ski> | (or you could collect `1's, and then `sum' .. many ways to "skin the cat") |
| 00:14:25 | <ski> | not in japanese, then ? |
| 00:14:50 | <simon> | surely :-D |
| 00:14:58 | <ski> | btw, it's `zip key sub', not `zip(key, sub)' |
| 00:15:18 | <ski> | also, you could use `zipWith (==) key sub', to get a list of `Bool'eans, directly |
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| 00:18:35 | <ski> | > [x + y | x <- [0,1,2,3] | y <- [40,50,60]] -- another extension |
| 00:18:37 | <lambdabot> | [40,51,62] |
| 00:22:10 | <koz_> | @hoogle asum |
| 00:22:10 | <lambdabot> | Data.Foldable asum :: (Foldable t, Alternative f) => t (f a) -> f a |
| 00:22:10 | <lambdabot> | Data.Conduit.Combinators asum :: (Monad m, Alternative f) => ConduitT (f a) o m (f a) |
| 00:22:10 | <lambdabot> | Protolude asum :: (Foldable t, Alternative f) => t (f a) -> f a |
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| 01:05:42 | <koz_> | What's the place to look for how GADTs are represented at runtime? |
| 01:06:20 | <NGravity> | Can haskell draw 4dimensional data ? Because i wanna fix string theory and calculate the total mass of the universe 😜😂 |
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| 01:09:37 | <Kolkrabe> | Yes, Haskell can do that |
| 01:09:42 | <NGravity> | We have 12 dimensions arrays , perhaps 15 x 14.5 billion light years dimensionals, so that is the data to extract at plank measurements👍🤣 |
| 01:10:03 | <NGravity> | Yes yes! 😂😂😂 |
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| 01:12:31 | <c_wraith> | koz_: GADTs aren't different at runtime, unless you mean using them for existentials. In which case their runtime representation is the same as any other existential at runtime. |
| 01:12:46 | <c_wraith> | err. existential type classes |
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| 01:13:28 | <koz_> | c_wraith: Suppose you have something like 'Foo (a :: Type) where Bar :: (SomeConstraint a) => a -> Foo a'. Would this look different to 'data Foo a = Foo a'? |
| 01:13:39 | <koz_> | s/= Foo/= Bar/ argh |
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| 01:14:35 | <c_wraith> | I suppose that's technically not an existential, even though it's doing the same thing you'd normally do with existential type classes. |
| 01:15:16 | <koz_> | So would this end up looking like an existential at runtime, or not? |
| 01:15:25 | <c_wraith> | I mean, it'd be packaged the same way |
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| 01:16:03 | <c_wraith> | (SomeConstraint a) => a -> Foo a gets converted to SomeConstraintDict a -> a -> Foo a |
| 01:16:17 | <koz_> | Ah, so the dictionary gets carted around at runtime? |
| 01:16:21 | <c_wraith> | yes |
| 01:16:41 | <c_wraith> | Which is why it's exceptionally rare for it to be the correct design |
| 01:17:14 | <koz_> | OK, thanks. I thought as much, but I wanted to ask just in case. |
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| 01:27:55 | ski | idly ponders the difference between `foo :: forall a. C a => F a -> G a' and `foo :: (exists a. C a *> F a) -> (exists a. C a *> G a)' |
| 01:28:38 | <ski> | (there's also `foo :: (forall a. C a => F a) -> (forall a. C a => G a)' ..) |
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| 01:31:24 | <ski> | (passing around a dictionary can be useful, sometimes. but it may possibly be more useful, if you bundle the dictionary of a typeclass instance for `a', not with a single value of type `a', but with some collection of `a'. that way, one can make use of operations which take two `a's. cf. "binary methods problem" in OO) |
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| 01:38:20 | <jbox> | today is my first day of Haskell! I decided to try out xmonad and I'm loving it |
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| 01:39:26 | <ghoulguy> | hi jbox, neat that it's working out |
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| 01:44:10 | <ski> | jbox : feel free to ask, if you have any questions |
| 01:45:16 | <jbox> | ski: thank you ^-^ |
| 01:45:43 | <jbox> | I've never written in a functional language before (aside from Nix and the "functional" aspects of Rust), so I'm learning a lot :D |
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| 02:20:48 | <dsal> | jbox: We have many more monads to choose from. :) |
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| 03:03:49 | <jbox> | is there a standard haskell repl? |
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| 03:10:05 | <koz_> | jbox: There's GHCi? |
| 03:11:02 | <jbox> | koz_: perfect, thank you! |
| 03:13:17 | <Squarism> | im wondering if you could somehow discriminate between two class instances by class constraint. Say we have "class MyClz a" and "instance MyClz a" and "instance Show a => MyClz a" . If i try to compile that i get "Duplciate instance declaration" |
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| 03:15:53 | <koz_> | Squarism: You can use a newtype wrapper like 'instance Show a => MyClz (ViaShow a)'. |
| 03:16:19 | <koz_> | Because in your current situation, 'instance MyClz a' already covers everything, whether it has a Show instance or not. |
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| 03:20:19 | <Squarism> | koz_, thanks. I think Im fooling myself to think I can use classes to pattern match, but lets see where this is going |
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| 03:55:21 | <jbox> | should I use my distribution package manager (pacman/yay on Arch Linux) to install the Haskell toolchain or should I use ghcup? |
| 03:56:06 | <koz_> | jbox: ghcup. |
| 03:56:13 | <koz_> | This applies _doubly_ on Arch. |
| 03:57:27 | <jbox> | koz_: okay, thanks! |
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| 04:01:57 | <dsal> | jbox: You got any particular plans? |
| 04:04:35 | <jbox> | dsal: I'm just configuring xmonad right now. I'm trying to get vim integration working |
| 04:05:29 | <dsal> | Ah. I never got very far configuring xmonad. Day 1: Get a nice interface I like. I write lots of software I use, though. |
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| 04:38:28 | hackage | pandoc 2.11.0.3 - Conversion between markup formats https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pandoc-2.11.0.3 (JohnMacFarlane) |
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| 04:43:27 | hackage | citeproc 0.1.0.3 - Generates citations and bibliography from CSL styles. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/citeproc-0.1.0.3 (JohnMacFarlane) |
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| 05:11:28 | hackage | skylighting-core 0.10.0.3 - syntax highlighting library https://hackage.haskell.org/package/skylighting-core-0.10.0.3 (JohnMacFarlane) |
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| 05:12:28 | hackage | skylighting 0.10.0.3 - syntax highlighting library https://hackage.haskell.org/package/skylighting-0.10.0.3 (JohnMacFarlane) |
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| 06:04:58 | hackage | gopro-plus 0.4.0.0 - GoPro Plus Client API. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gopro-plus-0.4.0.0 (dustin) |
| 06:05:17 | <jophish> | Does cabal have a command to get the path to an executable? |
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| 06:05:26 | <jophish> | i.e. the thing called by cabal run |
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| 06:49:47 | tomsmeding | thinks there is not, but would very much like to be proven wrong |
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| 06:50:57 | <tomsmeding> | (a hacky way to get it manually for a single case is to run 'cabal build', and look at the last Linking step) |
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| 07:25:57 | hackage | haxl 2.3.0.0 - A Haskell library for efficient, concurrent,and concise data access. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/haxl-2.3.0.0 (SimonMarlow) |
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| 08:11:57 | hackage | Z-Data 0.1.8.0 - Array, vector and text https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Z-Data-0.1.8.0 (winterland) |
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| 08:40:28 | <dminuoso> | jophish: Yes, it does In 3.4. |
| 08:40:36 | <dminuoso> | It's --list-bin |
| 08:40:39 | <dminuoso> | Until then you have two options |
| 08:40:41 | <jophish> | thanks! |
| 08:40:56 | <dminuoso> | 1) Under Linux you can do `cabal exec -- which packageName` |
| 08:41:06 | <dminuoso> | 2) For windows compatibility you can use `cabal-plan` |
| 08:41:19 | <dminuoso> | (Because 3.4 is fully released yet) |
| 08:41:33 | <jophish> | ah of course, this is nicest I think: cabal exec -- which packageName |
| 08:41:44 | <dminuoso> | jophish: If you want to use this inside the CI, make sure to pass -v0 |
| 08:41:50 | <dminuoso> | So cabal doesn't output other stuff |
| 08:42:01 | <jophish> | wouldn't other stuff be on stderr? |
| 08:42:06 | <jophish> | or shouldn't perhaps |
| 08:42:21 | <dminuoso> | In experience you want -v0 |
| 08:42:56 | <dminuoso> | cabal outputs a lot of stuff on stdout, but even when you `build` first, our CI was broken a few times mysteriously because cabal output other stuff |
| 08:42:57 | <jophish> | right, thanks |
| 08:43:14 | <jophish> | yeah, I've always found that a little weird |
| 08:43:36 | <dminuoso> | Might just be an issue due to the way we run our CI. At any rate, specifying -v0 is good. |
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| 08:58:41 | <merijn> | 3.4 is blocked on GHC 9.0 release |
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| 09:18:14 | <maerwald> | @hoogle delete |
| 09:18:14 | <lambdabot> | Data.List delete :: Eq a => a -> [a] -> [a] |
| 09:18:14 | <lambdabot> | GHC.OldList delete :: Eq a => a -> [a] -> [a] |
| 09:18:14 | <lambdabot> | Data.IntMap.Internal delete :: Key -> IntMap a -> IntMap a |
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| 09:18:46 | <maerwald> | > delete 1 [1..] |
| 09:18:48 | <lambdabot> | [2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29... |
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| 09:20:56 | <int-e> | > delete 1 [1,1,1] |
| 09:20:58 | <lambdabot> | [1,1] |
| 09:21:09 | <maerwald> | hmm |
| 09:21:20 | <maerwald> | so it's actually `deleteFirst` |
| 09:21:24 | <hc> | > length (delete 1 [1..]) |
| 09:21:30 | <lambdabot> | mueval-core: Time limit exceeded |
| 09:21:33 | <int-e> | maerwald: yeah, which may be surprising. |
| 09:21:47 | <maerwald> | Such typesafety :p |
| 09:21:54 | <ski> | > [0,0,0] \\ [0,0] |
| 09:21:56 | <lambdabot> | [0] |
| 09:22:03 | <dminuoso> | uhh |
| 09:22:05 | <maerwald> | that's gross |
| 09:22:10 | <dminuoso> | ouch |
| 09:22:18 | <int-e> | multisets |
| 09:22:31 | <dminuoso> | Principle of maximum surprise |
| 09:22:54 | <dminuoso> | Can't we offload all these things to Data.Surprise.Surprise and out of Prelude? |
| 09:22:59 | <int-e> | it is what it is |
| 09:23:01 | <int-e> | no! |
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| 09:23:12 | <int-e> | without warts, what would we complain about? |
| 09:23:21 | <dminuoso> | Dunno. Other languages? |
| 09:23:22 | <int-e> | what little curiosities would we discuss? |
| 09:23:26 | <int-e> | it would be BORING |
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| 09:24:03 | <int-e> | next you'll be taking away NaNs and signed zeros from IEEE floating point numbers |
| 09:24:40 | <dminuoso> | These are not a problem, but I do want IEEE conform traps |
| 09:24:41 | <ski> | or `n+k' |
| 09:24:41 | <int-e> | (was that too much?) |
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| 09:25:10 | <int-e> | ski: I don't miss n+k patterns, somehow. |
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| 09:25:29 | <merijn> | int-e: Abolish value NaN, join us in trapping NaN paradise! |
| 09:25:47 | <int-e> | > error "it's a trap!" |
| 09:25:49 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: it's a trap! |
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| 09:25:59 | <merijn> | int-e: Basically, yes :p |
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| 09:26:12 | <merijn> | int-e: It's even IEEE-754 compliant! |
| 09:26:20 | <int-e> | merijn: I just wonder how much code that would/will break. |
| 09:26:27 | <dminuoso> | int-e: Dunno, I have luxury problems rather |
| 09:26:29 | <dminuoso> | % type f <> g = Either f g |
| 09:26:29 | <yahb> | dminuoso: |
| 09:26:31 | <dminuoso> | I dont want that to work. |
| 09:26:45 | <merijn> | I'm torn on type operators |
| 09:26:52 | <merijn> | On the one hand "ugh" |
| 09:26:57 | <dminuoso> | Type operators are fine, but they should demand a colon! |
| 09:27:03 | <merijn> | On the other hands, prefixing everything with : is also "ugh" |
| 09:27:06 | <dminuoso> | I think it used to be that way in 6.x or 7.x |
| 09:27:19 | <merijn> | Up until mid 7.x, I think |
| 09:27:35 | <dminuoso> | Right. There's so many places where quantifying over an operator makes so much more sense |
| 09:27:41 | <merijn> | Personally I'm offended much more by TypeInType and refuse to acknowledge it's existence |
| 09:27:41 | <dminuoso> | All the profunctor stuff for example |
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| 09:28:39 | <int-e> | (~>) is the perfect type variable for categories and arrows... |
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| 09:29:25 | <dminuoso> | I mean if you look at Servant, it's not even annoying to have colon prefixes for type operators. |
| 09:29:37 | <int-e> | It |
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| 09:29:59 | <int-e> | It's ugly for commutative things... But then again we can have :*: and :+:... |
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| 09:30:30 | <int-e> | (modulo isomorphisms) |
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| 09:31:03 | <dminuoso> | Overally, I think we'd pull more value from type operator variables than that |
| 09:31:29 | <dminuoso> | It's a little bit of visual noise vs effectively moving things that make more sense as infix into prefix position |
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| 09:52:58 | hackage | dropbox 0.0.0 - Dropbox API client https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dropbox-0.0.0 (Jappie) |
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| 10:18:40 | <tomsmeding> | quick development ^ |
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| 10:21:23 | <dminuoso> | Modern development! Release early and release unfinished. |
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| 10:21:50 | <dminuoso> | otoh, I have half a dozen packages awaiting release, but I've never found the time to finis them. :( |
| 10:22:00 | <dminuoso> | Can't seem to find the middleground here |
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| 10:57:59 | <maerwald> | There's actual research backing up the "release early, release often" mantra. But my impression is that it doesn't normalise for context: most of the time ppl have no idea what they are doing. Then quick feedback is all you got, lol |
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| 11:11:27 | hackage | dropbox 0.0.4 - Dropbox API client https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dropbox-0.0.4 (Jappie) |
| 11:11:31 | <[exa]> | maerwald: people make the best tests |
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| 11:18:28 | hackage | aws-lambda-haskell-runtime 3.0.5 - Haskell runtime for AWS Lambda https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aws-lambda-haskell-runtime-3.0.5 (NickSeagull) |
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| 11:28:12 | <merijn> | There's some people uploading stuff to hackage that doesn't even compile |
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| 11:28:40 | <merijn> | I'm not even talking "dependency bounds are wrong", I mean "straight up syntax error" |
| 11:28:59 | <merijn> | I wish people would do the bare minimum testing at least, before cluttering shared resources |
| 11:29:33 | <merijn> | The repo doesn't even exist |
| 11:30:15 | <merijn> | oh, that was a typo in the cabal file |
| 11:30:28 | <merijn> | I'm going to bet this person isn't aware of release candidates >.> |
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| 11:31:41 | <hc> | merijn: yeah, it is a bit difficult to acclimate to... indeed, the release canditate feature is not-100%-obvious |
| 11:31:49 | <int-e> | Hmm, maybe they're using a non-cabal build tool by default :/ |
| 11:32:12 | <merijn> | hc: candidate is the default, though? |
| 11:32:15 | <hc> | then again, adding some checks to reject stuff that doesn't copmile sounds doable |
| 11:32:23 | <merijn> | hc: Not really |
| 11:32:27 | <hc> | merijn: is it? I always explicitly search for it |
| 11:32:40 | <merijn> | hc: Because then anything depending on native libraries that are not on the builders fails |
| 11:32:48 | <merijn> | hc: How are you uploading, then? |
| 11:32:48 | <hc> | merijn: oh, true. |
| 11:32:51 | <hc> | s/compile/type check maybe? |
| 11:33:04 | <int-e> | you can't even check whether there's a build plan, because of C dependencies and possible platform-specific packages |
| 11:33:28 | <int-e> | (not easily at least) |
| 11:33:48 | <merijn> | hc: The hackage upload page (from clicking the link) has them at the bottom (this should perhaps be at the top, before the upload link/button) |
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| 11:33:53 | <hc> | you could require manual review by maintainers for packages that don't compile on "stardard hardware" then? |
| 11:33:57 | <merijn> | hc: https://hackage.haskell.org/upload |
| 11:34:20 | <int-e> | there is an upload page? |
| 11:34:23 | <merijn> | hc: And "cabal upload" requires you to add --publish to upload a non-candidate version |
| 11:34:28 | <merijn> | int-e: Yes :p |
| 11:34:35 | <int-e> | fancy |
| 11:34:51 | <hc> | int-e: yes, it's actually a very open infrastructure imho |
| 11:34:56 | <merijn> | Although I just use "cabal upload", since it's integrated with my password manager |
| 11:34:57 | <hc> | very low entry bar to contributing |
| 11:35:51 | <int-e> | hc: I never went looking for an upload page... I always just used `cabal upload`. |
| 11:36:03 | <hc> | ah ok, I see |
| 11:36:20 | <hc> | I always used cabal sdist, then find to find the tarball and then uploaded it via the file upload feature |
| 11:36:27 | <hc> | much later did I learn there is an upload command |
| 11:36:33 | <int-e> | It's just so easy to miss things that you're not looking for. |
| 11:36:42 | <hc> | true that! |
| 11:37:26 | <hc> | I tend to judge things these days by how easy/hard they make it for me to learn how to do what I am trying to do. (unless, of course, they require me to learn novel new concepts I haven't heard of before and that actually teach me something:) |
| 11:37:47 | <hc> | so by this standard, for example, I like hetzner cloud a lot and AWS not so much... |
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| 11:54:43 | <[exa]> | ...there's no testing/review in hackage at all? |
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| 11:57:23 | <infinity0> | i have some 3rd-party code that operates lazily on the front of a String, and some other 3rd-party code that operates lazily on the front of a lazy ByteString |
| 11:57:48 | <infinity0> | to interoperate the two, i'm keeping my data as a lazy ByteString, but then converting it to a String using LBS.pack/unpack |
| 11:58:04 | <merijn> | [exa]: No |
| 11:58:21 | <merijn> | [exa]: Who did you imagine would do that? |
| 11:58:29 | <infinity0> | however if i do this many many times, i will build up a deep thunk of pack (.. unpack ( .. pack ( ... unpack ) ... etc, is there any way around this? |
| 11:58:46 | <merijn> | infinity0: Stop...please...you're going to make me cry |
| 11:59:00 | <infinity0> | so is the answer "no"? |
| 11:59:12 | <merijn> | The only way that pack/unpack you're using would work is if you are using Char8 |
| 11:59:22 | <merijn> | And if so, I'm going to have to send my hit squad after you |
| 11:59:31 | <infinity0> | i'm using Char8, that's beside the point of my question though |
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| 12:02:07 | <merijn> | I disagree :) Doing that conversion once is evil enough that I'm quoted for hating on it (https://github.com/quchen/articles/blob/master/fbut.md#bytestringchar8-is-bad). Doing it repeatedly is *terribly* broken |
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| 12:03:22 | <hc> | merijn: lol on that quote |
| 12:03:37 | <merijn> | Ideally one (or both) of those 3rd party libraries exposes another way of interacting with it, but that's hard to say without knowing which libraries |
| 12:03:40 | <merijn> | hc: #facts |
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| 12:04:17 | <infinity0> | merijn: that problem doesn't apply to my use case, i'm only interested in the issue mentioned in my question |
| 12:04:29 | <arahael> | Meh, char8 probably still makes sense in some situations, such as where you have mixed-encoded strings. |
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| 12:05:10 | <merijn> | arahael: No, because then you just have a binary blob and should be operating on ByteString only |
| 12:05:23 | <infinity0> | the issue is about interoperating between two pieces of code that expect those two different types, yet it would seem the pack/unpack conversion would become more inefficient the more you interleave the operations, which is a shame |
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| 12:07:20 | <arahael> | merijn: I really shouldn't engage #haskell when my glenfiddich is running out. ;) But I'll persist! What if you were dealing with an sqlite blob of unspecified encoding? |
| 12:08:07 | <merijn> | infinity0: It's not about "more inefficient", but about "is this fundamentally broken?". Either one (or both) of those libraries are exposing the wrong type in their API (in which hopefully there's a right one too) *or* what you're doing is just broken and can't work correctly. I dunno which of those is true. But I don't know the answer to "how can I make the broken thing faster" |
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| 12:08:19 | <merijn> | arahael: ByteString |
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| 12:08:37 | <arahael> | merijn: Oh, hang on - char8 isn't actually 8-bit clean is it? |
| 12:08:42 | <merijn> | arahael: No |
| 12:08:53 | <arahael> | merijn: Well, then that dies right there. |
| 12:08:53 | <merijn> | arahael: It's just "lol, let's just drop all non-ascii input" |
| 12:09:06 | <arahael> | Yeah, I just realised why it's so bad, again. |
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| 12:09:22 | <infinity0> | merijn: "this is fundamentally broken" is a subjective judgement, i don't have the time to go into that type of philosophical debate |
| 12:09:23 | <hc> | maybe move it to the ByteString.Yolo subpackage to make this more clear? |
| 12:09:41 | <merijn> | hc: I have campaigned for it's removal multiple times |
| 12:10:04 | <infinity0> | the fact that you had to write a blog post about it means that "for all real-world situations, it results in incorrect behaviour" is not true, i would really just like to focus on my repeated unpack/pack question in terms of efficiency |
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| 12:10:42 | <infinity0> | you can think about it in terms of some unspecified types A and B if it makes you more comfortable.. |
| 12:10:42 | <merijn> | infinity0: That problem is unsolvable |
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| 12:10:50 | <hc> | infinity0: when you ask a hacker a simple question, you might get a long and possible philospophical answer ;p |
| 12:10:56 | <infinity0> | fair enough... |
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| 12:11:04 | <merijn> | "I'm repeatedly computing the same thing, how do I make it fast?" 'well...stop doing that' |
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| 12:11:23 | <merijn> | If you're encoding the same string, just, like, save the result and reuse it? |
| 12:11:49 | <merijn> | And if you're *not* encoding the same string, then I fail to see how you could convert it faster than "converting it" |
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| 12:14:07 | <infinity0> | i'm repeatedly decoding a stream, that's the thing, and it could either be A or B |
| 12:14:14 | <arahael> | merijn: When someone wants to "focus" on doing something efficiently, they don't always mean in computer time, even if they say that. ;) |
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| 12:16:01 | <merijn> | infinity0: Incidentally, replacing Char8.unpack with "T.unpack . decodeUtf8With lenientDecode" will give you the exact same type with a *much* more robust and *much* less bug-prone behaviour |
| 12:16:13 | <infinity0> | it's reasonable that a decoding API gives me (leftovers, result), but the two different APIs have different types for "leftovers" |
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| 12:16:42 | <infinity0> | merijn: thanks, yes i thought something like that must be possible, unfortunately it still would be inefficient due to the thunk build-up as if i understand right |
| 12:16:59 | <merijn> | (since it will 1. work correctly for any UTF-8 unicode, 2. gracefully handle errors if it's *not* UTF-8. As opposed to Char8 which will just silently corrupt your data) |
| 12:17:18 | <merijn> | infinity0: Any conversion to String is *always* going to be inefficient |
| 12:17:27 | <merijn> | Given that string easily takes up ~24 byte per character |
| 12:17:32 | <merijn> | and ruins your cache |
| 12:18:17 | <[exa]> | merijn: like, the users at least... :D |
| 12:18:33 | <infinity0> | well laziness could help with that, if only pack was "smart" enough to recognise an "unpack (...)" thunk and actually destructure it instead of building on top of it |
| 12:18:56 | <merijn> | [exa]: Well, there's the expectation that users do, but it doesn't hold as you see |
| 12:19:00 | <arahael> | infinity0: You mean fusion? :) |
| 12:19:03 | <merijn> | infinity0: That's not possible with ByteString |
| 12:19:18 | <[exa]> | merijn: moderation/banhammer is not available? |
| 12:19:28 | <merijn> | infinity0: To create a ByteString it *must* be copied in full |
| 12:19:40 | <infinity0> | sorry, i am talking about Lazy.ByteString here |
| 12:19:44 | <merijn> | [exa]: In theory, sure, in practice there's no process |
| 12:19:57 | <merijn> | infinity0: Lazy ByteString is just [Strict.ByteString] |
| 12:20:34 | <[exa]> | well then it's marvelous that the hackage is in such a good state |
| 12:20:39 | <merijn> | The chunk size depending on how/what creates the lazy list |
| 12:20:49 | <infinity0> | right, you only need to copy the first part of it, when creating one lazily |
| 12:21:23 | <infinity0> | arahael: that only happens at build-time not run-time conditionally AIUI. i'm pretty sure what i mentioned is impossible with today's haskell but i thought perhaps there might be some other strartegy i didn't know about |
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| 12:22:15 | <arahael> | infinity0: When I deal with haskell, I rarely try to think about compiletime vs runtime. I just accept that all the types are resolved at compile time. |
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| 12:23:20 | <infinity0> | well, i also care about runtime performance |
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| 12:24:23 | <merijn> | infinity0: Which 2 libraries are this? |
| 12:24:42 | <infinity0> | Serialise vs Read |
| 12:24:48 | <merijn> | oof |
| 12:24:55 | <merijn> | As in the Read typeclass? |
| 12:25:01 | <infinity0> | yeah |
| 12:25:05 | <merijn> | And you care about performance? |
| 12:25:20 | <merijn> | Because Read's performance is notoriously *god awful* |
| 12:25:30 | <merijn> | Just, like, incredibly bad |
| 12:25:55 | <infinity0> | right, for interactive user session is fine, but having it degrade on a O(n^2) basis sounds bad even for an interactive user session |
| 12:25:58 | <merijn> | What are you trying to read? |
| 12:27:21 | <infinity0> | a stream of a bunch of objects, that could either be Serialise or Read |
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| 12:28:07 | <arahael> | When I had to do a Read thing, I made my own read typeclass. |
| 12:28:34 | <merijn> | infinity0: And you don't control what creates this input (i.e. there's no way to replace Read with something else?) |
| 12:29:00 | <infinity0> | i could replace Read with perhaps JSON, that is another option i guess. mostly Read is convenient to derive and carries no dependencies |
| 12:29:41 | <merijn> | If you use Serialise already anyway, why not just derive Serialise? |
| 12:29:46 | <infinity0> | the underlying question regarding "runtime fusion" was interesting though |
| 12:30:12 | <infinity0> | i am already deriving Serialise. the idea is to have a fast+binary option but also a easy-friendly-manual option |
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| 13:23:43 | <dminuoso> | maerwald: Is there a way to select a version with ghcup without changing the default? |
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| 13:24:01 | <maerwald> | dminuoso: what do you mean exactly? |
| 13:24:12 | <dminuoso> | So we have a CI node with multiple GHC versions installed |
| 13:24:21 | <maerwald> | cabal build -w ghc-8.8.4? |
| 13:24:49 | <dminuoso> | maerwald: Cunning. |
| 13:25:01 | <merijn> | That's my local setup too :p |
| 13:25:01 | <dminuoso> | Can ghcup give me the path? |
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| 13:25:14 | <maerwald> | dminuoso: what path? |
| 13:25:14 | <merijn> | I just have all ghc's in my path (latest first) |
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| 13:25:24 | <dminuoso> | merijn: The path to an installed ghc |
| 13:25:29 | <merijn> | So "ghc" defaults to the latest and specific version go to those |
| 13:25:30 | <maerwald> | dminuoso: ghcup paths are predictable |
| 13:25:41 | <maerwald> | ~/.ghcup/ghc/8.8.4/bin/ghc or something |
| 13:26:06 | <dminuoso> | maerwald: Well it'd still feel better if there was a sort of `--list-ghc` command, such I could say `cabal build -w $(ghcup --list-bin ghc-8.6.5)` or some such |
| 13:26:27 | <dminuoso> | Rather than encoding internals of ghcup into CI job descriptions |
| 13:26:28 | <maerwald> | You don't trust your PATH? |
| 13:26:45 | <dminuoso> | maerwald: Again, I have multiple concurrent GHC versions installed |
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| 13:27:10 | <maerwald> | cabal build -w ~/.ghcup/bin/ghc-8.8.4 |
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| 13:28:38 | <dminuoso> | I still feel like ghc should offer plumbing commands. |
| 13:28:40 | <dminuoso> | *ghcup |
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| 13:28:59 | <merijn> | lifehack: https://github.com/merijn/dotfiles/blob/master/dotfiles/bash_env#L24-L28 ;) |
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| 13:28:59 | <merijn> | Needs some tweaking to match ghcup's paths, though |
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| 13:29:19 | <merijn> | dminuoso: So, if you have them all in your path then "ghc-8.8.4" will "just work" |
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| 13:29:36 | <maerwald> | I don't really understand the problem here |
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| 13:31:19 | <dminuoso> | merijn: Ah, indeed they are! |
| 13:31:36 | <dminuoso> | That's nice and works well |
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| 13:31:54 | <dminuoso> | Has the added advantage that the CI doesnt make assumptions about ghcup being installed |
| 13:31:54 | <merijn> | dminuoso: Then the trick is just to have the right "default" GHC first so that "ghc" pick the right one (which might not be important for CI) |
| 13:32:01 | <dminuoso> | It just demands a particular GHC version to be in path |
| 13:32:03 | <dminuoso> | :) |
| 13:32:15 | <dminuoso> | merijn: in case of ghcup, ghc itself is a symlink managed by ghcup |
| 13:32:17 | <dminuoso> | I didnt know that |
| 13:32:21 | <dminuoso> | I thought ghcup did PATH manipulation |
| 13:32:42 | <dminuoso> | Cheers this is good |
| 13:33:25 | <maerwald> | dminuoso: no, you have to modify PATH yourself, that's why we get mac users every day asking here how to do that |
| 13:33:34 | <dminuoso> | heh |
| 13:33:36 | <dminuoso> | fair enough |
| 13:33:43 | <dminuoso> | well, at any rate. merijn's suggested answer is good :) |
| 13:34:28 | <maerwald> | if you don't want to expose the symlinks, you can just export ~/.ghcup/ghc/<ver>/bin |
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| 13:57:57 | hackage | path-io 1.6.2 - Interface to ‘directory’ package for users of ‘path’ https://hackage.haskell.org/package/path-io-1.6.2 (mrkkrp) |
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| 14:38:57 | <carter> | merijn: you’re off #numerical-haskell just when it’s picking up again ;) |
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| 15:30:28 | hackage | mu-avro 0.4.0.1 - Avro serialization support for Mu microservices https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mu-avro-0.4.0.1 (AlejandroSerrano) |
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| 15:46:03 | <ulidtko> | does stack allow to pick only the lib component (and ignore/skip the exe:'s) of a package from extra-deps ? |
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| 15:48:33 | <ulidtko> | i see that stack allows passing flags to extra-deps... but this package has no flag to disable the exe: component |
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| 15:52:39 | <ulidtko> | fork it you say? well maybe, vendoring this one will certainly work, but I don't know how many more deps will need vendoring like that |
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| 15:53:39 | <lep-delete> | i feel like this is impossible but let's say i have a function `f :: (Read a) => String -> [a] -> [a]; f v xs = read v : xs` is it possible to supply @a at runtime? like from a typerep or smth? |
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| 15:54:06 | <merijn> | lep-delete: Well, tht sounds like a scary terrible idea :) |
| 15:54:25 | <lep-delete> | eh, maybe, mostly lazy |
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| 15:55:11 | <lep-delete> | (i could go into my specific use-case but i *think* the above should give the general idea) |
| 15:56:03 | <ulidtko> | lep-delete, the question is, why don't you know the specific `a` at `f` call site |
| 15:56:33 | <ulidtko> | and where the "runtime" choice of `a` comes from |
| 15:56:36 | <merijn> | A better question would be "are you really sure you wanna use Read?" :p |
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| 15:56:44 | <ulidtko> | that, too |
| 15:56:46 | <lep-delete> | no, but Read is the closest |
| 15:56:52 | <lep-delete> | i would use some binary serialisation |
| 15:56:59 | <lep-delete> | let me get into my use-case |
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| 15:58:58 | <lep-delete> | i have a data type with more structure than a list but let's use a list for now. i want a program where i can supply a string v, then read a list xs::[a] from a file and have read v:xs written back to that file. now i want to be able to use that program for [Int], [Real], [Maybe Int], you get it w/o recompiling it for every new file |
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| 15:59:47 | <hyperisco> | so I have strings and I want a reasonably unique hash for each string… what is my simplest path? cryponite looks possible but complicated |
| 16:00:10 | <monsterchrom> | How do I tell your program "I want [Int]"? |
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| 16:00:31 | <monsterchrom> | What is the exact syntax, for starters? (Next will be "what is the semantics of that syntax?") |
| 16:00:33 | <lep-delete> | either i provide it or read it from a file |
| 16:00:38 | <hyperisco> | like, md5 :: String -> String would make me happy |
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| 16:01:22 | <lep-delete> | i dont know enough about Data.{Data,Typeable,Dynamic} to say whether it's possible or not |
| 16:01:29 | <ulidtko> | lep-delete, your serialization format will need to have something like a tagged-union |
| 16:01:30 | <monsterchrom> | What is the exact syntax, for starters? (Next will be "what is the semantics of that syntax?") |
| 16:01:42 | <ulidtko> | then you simply case match on it |
| 16:01:54 | <ulidtko> | here, look, reading images https://github.com/Twinside/Juicy.Pixels/blob/master/src/Codec/Picture.hs#L426-L435 |
| 16:02:12 | <ulidtko> | it's really simple and there's no "high level" "type magic" involved |
| 16:02:18 | <lep-delete> | sure but a tagged union would need like all possible cases in beforehand, no? |
| 16:02:34 | <lep-delete> | im aware of the "normal" way |
| 16:02:36 | <monsterchrom> | What are your "all possible" cases? |
| 16:02:51 | <monsterchrom> | I was trying to extract that from "what is the exact syntax?" |
| 16:03:15 | <ulidtko> | yes, of course; otherwise what exactly would you mean by the serialization format ? |
| 16:03:22 | <monsterchrom> | Anyway talking only in the "abstract" is the root of all evil. |
| 16:03:46 | <ulidtko> | like, what monsterchrom says, define concretely what you need |
| 16:04:30 | <lep-delete> | simple example as above, i want the user supply a string value, have it `read` and append it to a list, which is stored `show`ed in a file |
| 16:04:41 | <lep-delete> | so anything that can be (Read a, Show a) |
| 16:04:59 | <lep-delete> | or ( ToJSON a, FromJSON a), or whatever |
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| 16:05:27 | <ulidtko> | use Json Value then? |
| 16:05:33 | <ulidtko> | the untyped thing |
| 16:05:48 | <monsterchrom> | If you say, "all legal Haskell types", you will be linking the totalily of GHC. You don't want to go there. |
| 16:05:52 | <lep-delete> | well i have a concrete type for each file |
| 16:06:21 | <monsterchrom> | HOW MANY TYPES ARE THERE? |
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| 16:15:38 | <dolio> | A proper class. |
| 16:15:48 | <monsterchrom> | heh |
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| 16:16:28 | hackage | gopro-plus 0.4.1.0 - GoPro Plus Client API. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gopro-plus-0.4.1.0 (dustin) |
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| 16:19:58 | hackage | happstack-server 7.7.0 - Web related tools and services. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/happstack-server-7.7.0 (JeremyShaw) |
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| 16:31:07 | <Guest45505> | im wondering, how many thread can i open in concurrency within a haskell programm ? do one thread === one CPU core ? |
| 16:31:41 | <Rembane> | Guest45505: What kind of threads? |
| 16:32:00 | <Guest45505> | those that you open by calling forkIO for example |
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| 16:32:47 | <texasmynsted> | I know this is a terrible question but . . . There are many options for writing "shell scripts" using Haskell. Too many for me to select one. |
| 16:33:21 | <c_wraith> | Guest45505: So... this is actually sort of complex, because GHC has a couple options that completely change how threads work. But in no case is a GHC thread an OS thread |
| 16:33:28 | <texasmynsted> | If my goal was to improve my Haskell skill, especially for streaming and concurrency, what would you recommend? |
| 16:34:04 | <Rembane> | texasmynsted: Go for the turtle one! |
| 16:34:16 | <monsterchrom> | "Green threads", i.e, many Haskell threads cramped to N cores, you choose N. |
| 16:34:27 | <Rembane> | texasmynsted: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/turtle |
| 16:34:34 | <monsterchrom> | Even if you have 64 cores you can tell the RTS to use just 2 cores. |
| 16:34:54 | <monsterchrom> | In fact "green threads" is more nuanced than that. |
| 16:34:57 | <c_wraith> | Guest45505: GHC has two different options for runtimes that can be linked in to programs it compiles. One uses a single thread for all Haskell code, which lets it skip all kinds of locking and synchronization primitives. |
| 16:34:58 | <texasmynsted> | why turtle. That is . . . not what I expected. |
| 16:35:32 | <c_wraith> | Guest45505: the other is what monsterchrom is describing, where it can split the Haskell threads across multiple OS threads. |
| 16:35:33 | <monsterchrom> | But if you know Java's "green threads", that's what we have too. |
| 16:36:34 | <texasmynsted> | lol. First thing it says is install Stack. (If I use turtle it will not be with Stack.) |
| 16:37:00 | <Rembane> | I propose that you can for all practical intents and purposes have an infinite amount of "green threads" and things will work just fine. |
| 16:37:14 | <Rembane> | texasmynsted: What was what you expected? |
| 16:37:17 | <Guest45505> | monsterchrom ok i see, thats much clearer for me now, thanks |
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| 16:39:11 | <texasmynsted> | Shell-conduit or something? |
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| 16:41:55 | <Rembane> | Cool, I have never used it. :) |
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| 16:46:32 | <ulidtko> | texasmynsted, best option for shell scripts is... bash. |
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| 16:46:59 | <ulidtko> | however -- check out https://www.shellcheck.net it's written in haskell if that gives you the warm fuzzy feeling |
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| 16:49:39 | <texasmynsted> | ulidtko: I agree with you. I just mean for things that "outgrow" a shell script. |
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| 16:51:15 | <ulidtko> | yes, that happens all the time. either rewrite it, or deal with it (shellcheck is really helpful, also following consistent style) |
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| 16:53:16 | <texasmynsted> | Yes, I love shellscript. |
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| 16:53:24 | <texasmynsted> | I mean shellcheck |
| 16:53:33 | <texasmynsted> | I have it integrated into vim |
| 16:53:59 | <ulidtko> | as for rewriting options: I sort of fail to see the point to "emulate" bash and try to make it look like shellscript... |
| 16:54:06 | <ulidtko> | same |
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| 16:54:34 | <ulidtko> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/HSH-2.1.3 using this one, you can spawn processes and pipes "just like" in bash |
| 16:55:09 | <ulidtko> | but all the ['extra', 'syntax'] makes you really want to go back to bash instead |
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| 16:56:01 | <ulidtko> | so, a good linter like shellcheck really hits the sweat spot IMO |
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| 16:56:26 | <ulidtko> | (*sweet haha) |
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| 16:57:12 | <texasmynsted> | I am not trying to emulate bash. Rather I am trying to find the best way to interact with shell processes that do not have a haskell module. |
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| 16:58:14 | <texasmynsted> | hmm. all good points |
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| 17:01:57 | hackage | happstack-server-tls 7.2.1.1 - extend happstack-server with https:// support (TLS/SSL) https://hackage.haskell.org/package/happstack-server-tls-7.2.1.1 (JeremyShaw) |
| 17:02:23 | <Guest_47> | ugh hi I'm a mac user trying to install haskell via ghcup but I keep getting this error message |
| 17:02:26 | <Guest_47> | dyld: lazy symbol binding failed: Symbol not found: _futimens Referenced from: /Users/georgewang/.ghcup/bin/ghcup (which was built for Mac OS X 10.13) Expected in: /usr/lib/libSystem.B.dylibdyld: Symbol not found: _futimens Referenced from: /Users/georgewang/.ghcup/bin/ghcup (which was built for Mac OS X 10.13) Expected in: |
| 17:02:26 | <Guest_47> | /usr/lib/libSystem.B.dylibsh: line 35: 25979 Abort trap: 6 ghcup "$@""_eghcup --cache install ghc recommended" failed! |
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| 17:03:02 | <maerwald> | Guest_47: what's your mac version? |
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| 17:03:16 | <Guest_47> | 10.12 |
| 17:03:31 | <maerwald> | not supported |
| 17:03:35 | <Guest_47> | oof |
| 17:03:51 | <maerwald> | I'm not even sure ghc itself will run there |
| 17:04:02 | <maerwald> | and cabal |
| 17:04:30 | <__monty__> | Course they will. |
| 17:04:41 | <maerwald> | __monty__: did you try? |
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| 17:04:47 | <__monty__> | At least, they work for me built with a darwin version of 10.12. |
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| 17:05:17 | <maerwald> | __monty__: I'm talking about the official bindists |
| 17:05:36 | <merijn> | GHC supports 10.7 or later, iirc |
| 17:05:52 | <monsterchrom> | Now commences going out of one's way to give ghcup an obscure URL to download from. :) |
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| 17:06:07 | <merijn> | monsterchrom: It's the same URL as the regular macOS one |
| 17:06:34 | <merijn> | Guest_47: If you're commandline savvy you can just install the bindist yourself from here: https://www.haskell.org/ghc/download_ghc_8_10_2.html#macosx_x86_64 |
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| 17:06:47 | <merijn> | Which (at least claims) to work on anything later than 10.7 |
| 17:07:05 | <Guest_47> | aha |
| 17:07:09 | <Guest_47> | cheers, I'll try that |
| 17:07:31 | <merijn> | Guest_47: It's just a matter of "./configure --prefix=whatever/path/you/want && make install" |
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| 17:08:21 | <merijn> | Ah, I'm not sure if cabal-install has prebuilt binaries for that, though, although there should be a bootstrap script to compile it with just GHC installed |
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| 17:09:16 | <__monty__> | (If all else fails, nixpkgs has both GHC and cabal-install cached so you could install them with nix.) |
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| 17:10:24 | <__monty__> | Though I guess brew should have both too. |
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| 17:29:27 | <maerwald> | yes, install half another OS just to get GHC :p |
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| 17:30:00 | <monsterchrom> | I was procratinating ghcjs because of that. :) |
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| 17:31:22 | <jtmar> | dumb question: is there any way to get this to work? `data U (a :: ()) where { U :: U (() :: ()) }` It fails with "Expected kind ‘()’, but ‘()’ has kind ‘*’" |
| 17:31:24 | <maerwald> | I bought 16GB more ram and 250GB more disk space, just so I can run a nix expression, which runs some stuff you could do in 50 LOC bash |
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| 17:31:39 | <maerwald> | (but it's reproducible) |
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| 17:32:50 | <maerwald> | when it doesn't OOM out, it works well |
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| 17:34:34 | <yushyin> | ah yes, I know that problem, but just with cabal build :P |
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| 17:36:27 | hackage | prolude 0.0.0.4 - ITProTV's custom prelude https://hackage.haskell.org/package/prolude-0.0.0.4 (saramuse) |
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| 17:40:41 | <monsterchrom> | data U (a :: ()) where { U :: U '() } |
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| 17:56:16 | <jtmar> | oh, yeah, single quotes, right. thanks. |
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| 17:58:43 | <monsterchrom> | I think basically the parser stage doesn't have access to type/kind checking, so when it sees "X :: Y", it cannot infer "since Y is not Type, I see what you mean by X". |
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| 18:09:00 | <__monty__> | maerwald: Color me skeptical. I've run NixOS just fine with 2GB RAM. |
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| 18:11:02 | <maerwald> | __monty__: yes, I have an expression that needs 6GB of memory (not the stuff it builds/compiles, but the nix-build process itself) |
| 18:11:12 | <maerwald> | that's some nice memory leak |
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| 18:12:09 | <__monty__> | Then "I bought 16 GB more RAM" is very misleading. |
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| 18:13:56 | <maerwald> | the other half was for hls |
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| 18:14:10 | <maerwald> | but that's crashing now most of the time, so I have free ram for nix |
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| 18:15:07 | <monsterchrom> | You should also discuss the "250GB disk space" and how misleading it also is, while you're at it. |
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| 18:15:24 | <maerwald> | yeah, half for nix, half for docker... they're racing |
| 18:15:44 | <maerwald> | the fun part about docker is the "prune" command never finishes |
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| 18:16:58 | <monsterchrom> | Evergrowing space usage and neverending time usage. |
| 18:17:09 | <maerwald> | and when you try to stop it, you can't, because the daemon is blocked, then you kill everything and rm -rf |
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| 18:17:59 | <maerwald> | bonus points for docker: it actually takes less time to "rebuild" than nix |
| 18:18:21 | <maerwald> | it just downloads gigabytes of trash, nix seems to spend more CPU |
| 18:19:55 | <maerwald> | I have this theory that half of nix IO load is due to `realpath` |
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| 18:34:28 | hackage | call-alloy 0.2.1.0 - A simple library to call Alloy given a specification https://hackage.haskell.org/package/call-alloy-0.2.1.0 (marcellus) |
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| 18:43:40 | <monsterchrom> | w00t Alloy |
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| 18:44:29 | <monsterchrom> | Oh God no, "getInstances". Java abstract factory all over again. |
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| 18:47:28 | hackage | pandoc 2.11.0.4 - Conversion between markup formats https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pandoc-2.11.0.4 (JohnMacFarlane) |
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| 19:11:57 | hackage | faktory 1.0.1.3 - Faktory Worker for Haskell https://hackage.haskell.org/package/faktory-1.0.1.3 (PatrickBrisbin) |
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| 19:21:09 | <DigitalKiwi> | __monty__: i have nixos on my rpi 3b |
| 19:21:56 | <DigitalKiwi> | with 32GB micro sd card |
| 19:22:23 | <__monty__> | DigitalKiwi: Yeah, it's possible, but it's not exactly an incredible UX. I was just not happy with painting nix as requiring 16GB RAM. |
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| 19:24:02 | <dminuoso> | *memory |
| 19:24:08 | <blip> | Why can't I define `data A = B | Proxy 'B` |
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| 19:24:27 | <dminuoso> | blip: That, arguably, is better asked in #ghc :p |
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| 19:24:41 | <maerwald> | __monty__: if one nix-build process requires 6GB and you have firefox open, you need more than 16GB |
| 19:25:00 | <davean> | blip: Proxy? |
| 19:25:06 | <dminuoso> | blip: It seems like an engineering problem, allowing for self-recursive data declarations |
| 19:25:11 | <maerwald> | correction: the nix-build process needed 6GB, ghc then needed another few |
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| 19:25:15 | <blip> | Sorry, I mean't: `data A = B | C (Proxy B)` |
| 19:25:25 | <dminuoso> | blip: Still. |
| 19:25:38 | <dminuoso> | It doesn't really change, as the initial example is fine too |
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| 19:25:53 | <davean> | blip: Well, at best you'd need DataKinds, and B is a constructor not a type its self |
| 19:25:55 | <dminuoso> | blip: I'd git blame the ghc source code on the diagnostic. |
| 19:26:05 | <dminuoso> | All I know is, there's a reason we have a *special* diagnostic for it |
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| 19:26:09 | <blip> | davean: I know, it's promoted |
| 19:26:09 | <dminuoso> | % :set -XDataKinds |
| 19:26:09 | <yahb> | dminuoso: |
| 19:26:13 | <dminuoso> | % data Foo = Foo Foo |
| 19:26:14 | <yahb> | dminuoso: |
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| 19:26:18 | <dminuoso> | % data Foo = Foo 'Foo |
| 19:26:19 | <yahb> | dminuoso: ; <interactive>:140:16: error:; * Data constructor `Foo' cannot be used here (it is defined and used in the same recursive group); * In the type 'Foo; In the definition of data constructor `Foo'; In the data declaration for `Foo' |
| 19:26:34 | <blip> | Yeah, that's understandable, the compiler would loop |
| 19:26:36 | <davean> | I mean you can't generate an infinite type either |
| 19:27:01 | <dminuoso> | blip: Hold on, in the above, is the B supposed to have a tick or not? |
| 19:27:03 | <blip> | But if I promote another constructor it's not infinite |
| 19:27:07 | <blip> | yep |
| 19:27:12 | <blip> | they are omittable |
| 19:27:14 | <dminuoso> | blip: But that's the same example. |
| 19:27:25 | <dminuoso> | Im just aksing because it could be ambgiuous without more context |
| 19:27:35 | <dminuoso> | Oh, my example was poor |
| 19:27:46 | <dminuoso> | % data Foo = F 'F |
| 19:27:46 | <yahb> | dminuoso: ; <interactive>:141:14: error:; * Data constructor `F' cannot be used here (it is defined and used in the same recursive group); * In the type 'F; In the definition of data constructor `F'; In the data declaration for `Foo' |
| 19:28:09 | <blip> | data Foo = F | X (Proxy F') |
| 19:28:12 | <blip> | darn |
| 19:28:16 | <dminuoso> | Note the choice of the word "group" |
| 19:28:21 | <blip> | data Foo = F | X (Proxy 'F) |
| 19:28:44 | <blip> | yes, I know that it doesn't work. The question is why. |
| 19:29:10 | <dminuoso> | blip: Ask Richard Eisenberg? :p |
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| 19:29:49 | <dminuoso> | Almost confident it's an GHC engineering problem |
| 19:30:35 | <blip> | I'm solving that in a very ugly and unsafe way with Symbols |
| 19:30:38 | <dminuoso> | blip: See note [Recursion and promoting data constructors] |
| 19:30:50 | <dminuoso> | in compiler/GHC/Tc/TyCl.hs |
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| 19:31:43 | <dminuoso> | Mmm that note doesnt actually contain something useful |
| 19:32:14 | <dminuoso> | But perhaps this would loop the kind checker when the data declaration is checked? |
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| 19:33:12 | <blip> | I think it would loop if you would reference the same Constructor |
| 19:33:28 | <blip> | data A = B (Proxy 'B) |
| 19:33:56 | <blip> | Or mutal recursion: data A = B (Proxy 'C) | C (Proxy 'B) |
| 19:34:23 | <dminuoso> | blip: again, this is probably better asked in #ghc, the ghc dev mailing list or the issue tracker. :) |
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| 19:34:52 | <blip> | dminuoso: ok, thanks. I'll ponder it a bit and ask tomorrow in #ghc |
| 19:35:16 | <dminuoso> | The mailing list is likely a better candidate |
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| 19:35:45 | <blip> | ok |
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| 19:51:39 | <blip> | dminuoso: another question, is there a function Foo with following properties: `data A = B; Foo 'B = "B" :: Symbol` |
| 19:52:02 | <blip> | like ShowType from the type error messages, but which returns a Symbol and not a Text |
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| 19:55:43 | <dminuoso> | blip: There's only the bits for type errors |
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| 19:56:57 | <blip> | hm, i'll try to unsafeCoerce, perhaps it's under the hood the same |
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| 19:57:30 | <dminuoso> | unsafeCoerce on the type level? |
| 19:57:34 | <dminuoso> | We have that? |
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| 19:58:14 | <blip> | with proxies |
| 19:59:06 | <blip> | unsafeCoerce :: KnownSymbol a => Proxy ErrorMessage -> Proxy a |
| 19:59:07 | <blip> | ? |
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| 20:01:26 | <dminuoso> | blip: What's your intention here? |
| 20:02:02 | <blip> | I want to get the name of a promoted constructor as a Symbol |
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| 20:04:08 | <ghoulguy> | To get constructors as symbols I'd expect you to have to write some TH to actually generate the code |
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| 20:04:48 | <ghoulguy> | Like a: type family AsSymbol (a :: k) :: Symbol -- and then a bunch of generated instances |
| 20:05:36 | <blip> | If they aren't promoted it would work via generics |
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| 20:06:57 | <ghoulguy> | yeah, looks like it |
| 20:06:59 | <blip> | Yeah, I'd love to avoid TH |
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| 20:08:15 | <ghoulguy> | >>> data T = C deriving (Generic) |
| 20:08:15 | <ghoulguy> | >>> :kind! Rep T () |
| 20:08:15 | <ghoulguy> | Rep T () :: * = D1 ('MetaData "T" "Ghci3" "interactive" 'False) (C1 ('MetaCons "C" 'PrefixI 'False) U1) () |
| 20:08:45 | <ghoulguy> | "T" is a Symbol there |
| 20:08:57 | <blip> | Yes, and "C" as well. |
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| 20:14:45 | <blip> | I'd want to have `data T = A | B` and a function F (a :: T) which gives F 'B = "B" |
| 20:15:03 | <blip> | and I think that's not possible with generics |
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| 20:19:03 | <ghoulguy> | GHC.Generics operate on types of kind * -> * and * |
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| 20:20:02 | <blip> | yes, that's the problem |
| 20:20:19 | <blip> | wrapping in Proxy doesn't help |
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| 20:21:52 | <blip> | well, sounds like TH is the only way foreward |
| 20:21:55 | <blip> | or a plugin |
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| 20:23:19 | <ghoulguy> | Or just write it out by hand if it's a small number of cases |
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| 20:23:36 | <ghoulguy> | if it's not write it out by hand to make sure you like the API before you invest TH time on it :) |
| 20:24:04 | <blip> | about 100 promoted constructors :) |
| 20:24:24 | <ghoulguy> | a job for an editor macro then |
| 20:25:13 | <blip> | yes, the code would be easily generated. I'd just love to avoid inflating my source files |
| 20:25:43 | <ghoulguy> | I'd expect the impact of a plugin or TH to be higher |
| 20:25:47 | <monsterchrom> | "F 'B = ..." makes F either a type family or a term-level function Proxy T -> ... |
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| 20:26:08 | <ghoulguy> | f :: proxy t -> SomeSymbol |
| 20:26:54 | <ghoulguy> | err: proxy T |
| 20:26:54 | <blip> | monsterchrom: I'd prefer to avoid term-level |
| 20:27:01 | <ghoulguy> | probably nicer to do the type family |
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| 20:27:37 | <blip> | proxy (x :: T) |
| 20:27:42 | <ghoulguy> | as a term-level it'd be a class method |
| 20:28:06 | <blip> | yes, but type level guarantees no runtime overhead |
| 20:28:13 | <blip> | term-level is always a risk |
| 20:28:35 | <ghoulguy> | type-level means you won't know if you have a knownsymbol constraint to use |
| 20:28:43 | <ghoulguy> | which might not matter |
| 20:28:56 | <ghoulguy> | You can always just assert one |
| 20:29:05 | <ghoulguy> | KnownSymbol (F thing) => |
| 20:29:22 | <ghoulguy> | sounds like a mess either way :) |
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| 20:29:58 | <blip> | I think I'll go for the type family |
| 20:30:21 | <Uniaika> | hello there |
| 20:30:27 | <blip> | type family Bananas (x :: A) where Bananas B = "B" etc... |
| 20:30:47 | <blip> | hello |
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| 20:38:27 | hackage | stack2cabal 1.0.12 - Convert stack projects to cabal.project + cabal.project.freeze https://hackage.haskell.org/package/stack2cabal-1.0.12 (maerwald) |
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| 20:53:50 | <pomiiu> | Hi everyone. Just found out about ghcup. Is this the new standard way to install GHC? |
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| 20:54:01 | <monsterchrom> | Yes. |
| 20:54:04 | <ghoulguy> | pomiiu: yup |
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| 20:55:17 | <pomiiu> | There are lots of packages like indent that I think assume stack. Like hindent, which suggests "stack install hindent" to install. Is it just "cabal install hindent" then? |
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| 20:55:46 | <maerwald> | prefer: cabal install --install-method=copy --overwrite-policy=always |
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| 20:56:05 | <maerwald> | which is closer to what stack does too |
| 20:56:06 | <monsterchrom> | You should just try. Add "--dry-run" for a preview of what would be involved. |
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| 20:56:18 | <pomiiu> | Ah okay. Thanks. |
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| 21:29:24 | <hc> | is there a haskell implementation of youtube-dl? ;-) |
| 21:30:13 | <texasmyn_> | pomiiu: have you tried brittany? |
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| 21:31:12 | <texasmynsted[m]_> | oops |
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| 21:32:04 | <texasmynsted> | I have tried them all, https://github.com/lspitzner/brittany works very well and worth a look. I do not have enough scroll-back to know about your hindent needs. |
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| 21:33:13 | <yushyin> | fourmolu/ormolu |
| 21:34:01 | <texasmynsted> | I guess I have _not_ tried them all. I have not tried ormolu, I think |
| 21:34:22 | <texasmynsted> | I mean fourmolu |
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| 21:36:57 | <texasmynsted> | darn now I have to try another one. heh |
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| 21:40:41 | <sm[m]> | gotta collect them all! |
| 21:44:37 | <pomiiu> | Has anyone tried to build hindent recently? I get src/HIndent/Types.hs:78:27: error: • Could not deduce (MonadFail m) arising from a use of ‘fail’ |
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| 21:52:43 | <maerwald> | that shouldn't be hard to fixe |
| 21:52:46 | <crestfallen> | hi please help me understand "creates the effect of both the original layers", here: IO(IO ()) 'join' can be thought of as combining the effects described by two m-layers, one nested inside the other. combining them into a single m-layer, creates the effects of both the original layers. |
| 21:53:17 | <maerwald> | :t join |
| 21:53:18 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => m (m a) -> m a |
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| 21:53:23 | <maerwald> | @src join |
| 21:53:23 | <lambdabot> | join x = x >>= id |
| 21:53:34 | <maerwald> | :t (>>=) |
| 21:53:35 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b |
| 21:53:38 | <maerwald> | @src (>>=) |
| 21:53:38 | <lambdabot> | Source not found. Do you think like you type? |
| 21:53:44 | <maerwald> | something like that |
| 21:53:47 | <maerwald> | follow the rabbit |
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| 21:57:19 | <crestfallen> | maerwald, thanks, but what does it mean to create the effects of both the original layers. IO() should not be read into, I'm assuming.. |
| 21:57:49 | <maerwald> | I honestly ind that sentence confusing. Seems like someone tried to over-explain stuff |
| 21:57:49 | <dminuoso> | crestfallen: I frequently like to adopt the notion that `IO T` is a list of assembly instructions, that, if they were executed produced something of type `T`. So `IO (IO T)` is some assembly instructions, that, if they were executed, would give you another list of assembly instructions |
| 21:57:57 | <dminuoso> | And if those were executed, you'd get something of value T |
| 21:58:20 | <dminuoso> | Now, `join` is saying "give me a list of assembly instruction that does the first, and then the second" |
| 21:58:33 | <dminuoso> | Thereby "combining" these two |
| 21:59:01 | <maerwald> | If language is confusing you, throw it away and look at code |
| 21:59:41 | <maerwald> | > join (Just (Just 2)) |
| 21:59:46 | <lambdabot> | Just 2 |
| 22:00:23 | <maerwald> | > join Nothing |
| 22:00:26 | <lambdabot> | Nothing |
| 22:00:36 | <maerwald> | > join (Just Nothing) |
| 22:00:38 | <lambdabot> | Nothing |
| 22:00:46 | <dminuoso> | crestfallen: In terms of power, join and (>>=) are completely equivalent. The only reason `join` is not a method of Monad (and an alternative to implement instead of (>>=)) is actually some very interesting interaction with other extensions. |
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| 22:01:35 | <crestfallen> | so Nothing in that last one has no effect, since its extracted from Just Nothing ? |
| 22:03:29 | <crestfallen> | I ask, because of this note: An effect is the structural information of a Functor, the part that's not parametric. Does that mean a Nothing is effectual ? -- yes |
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| 22:03:55 | <maerwald> | what are you reading? |
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| 22:04:05 | <crestfallen> | so I'm confused about Nothing as non/effectual |
| 22:04:09 | <dminuoso> | an "effect" is really just a handwavy and very non-precise idea that comes from already existing intuition |
| 22:04:32 | <dminuoso> | "effect" is not something useful for understanding what all of this means, it's rather the *result* of having gained some understanding, and making some analogies |
| 22:04:37 | <maerwald> | This sounds like lecture notes :p |
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| 22:05:35 | <crestfallen> | one moment pls |
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| 22:06:12 | <maerwald> | crestfallen: you can think of `Maybe Int` as having an effect flow (Nothing and Just) and a value flow (Int) |
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| 22:07:18 | <maerwald> | `join` just combines the effects... it's actually pretty boring |
| 22:07:19 | <maerwald> | :p |
| 22:07:21 | <crestfallen> | so if we extract Nothing from Just -- join Just Nothing -- what is the result, Nothing, there? just out of curiosity |
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| 22:07:50 | <maerwald> | crestfallen: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.0.0/docs/src/GHC.Base.html#line-1005 |
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| 22:08:35 | <maerwald> | maybe would be nicer to show the pattern matching for join |
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| 22:09:09 | <crestfallen> | not sure I follow, if Just and Nothing are both in the effect flow.. |
| 22:09:50 | <crestfallen> | because my notes have Nothing as effectual, but in this case Nothing is in the parameter |
| 22:11:11 | <maerwald> | crestfallen: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/lJ9EjYAJ |
| 22:11:37 | <maerwald> | pretty boring right? |
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| 22:13:05 | <crestfallen> | its boring but then I read about effects .. once again .. and have to be content without understanding it. |
| 22:13:42 | <maerwald> | that's just jargon... what matters is the typeclass |
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| 22:13:56 | <maerwald> | and that it applies for many more stuff |
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| 22:14:28 | <maerwald> | > join [[1,2,3]] |
| 22:14:31 | <lambdabot> | [1,2,3] |
| 22:15:17 | <crestfallen> | join == concat |
| 22:16:41 | <maerwald> | > join (+) 8 |
| 22:16:44 | <lambdabot> | 16 |
| 22:16:45 | <maerwald> | xD |
| 22:16:52 | <maerwald> | ignore that one |
| 22:17:05 | <crestfallen> | ?? |
| 22:17:10 | <crestfallen> | > join (+) 8 |
| 22:17:12 | <lambdabot> | 16 |
| 22:18:26 | <maerwald> | > join (\x -> \y -> x + y) 8 |
| 22:18:28 | <lambdabot> | 16 |
| 22:18:36 | <maerwald> | so functions are monads too |
| 22:19:15 | <crestfallen> | god I have notes that seem to be conflicting.. maddening |
| 22:20:26 | <maerwald> | here's the definition https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.0.0/docs/src/GHC.Base.html#line-979 |
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| 22:22:20 | <maerwald> | Also see this in-depth answer: https://stackoverflow.com/a/5316690 |
| 22:22:39 | <crestfallen> | maerwald, I have this: An 'm a' is an effect; Nothing is not an 'm a' |
| 22:22:55 | <maerwald> | > Nothing :: Maybe Int |
| 22:22:57 | <lambdabot> | Nothing |
| 22:23:00 | <maerwald> | why not? |
| 22:23:52 | <crestfallen> | > Nothing :: Maybe Bool |
| 22:23:54 | <lambdabot> | Nothing |
| 22:24:12 | <crestfallen> | interesting. |
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| 22:24:22 | <maerwald> | stop thinking about effects |
| 22:24:43 | <crestfallen> | ok that's interesting thanks , I'll read that SO. appreciate it! |
| 22:24:50 | <maerwald> | it's just a class: Monad |
| 22:25:24 | <crestfallen> | maerwald, let me show you one thing... |
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| 22:32:32 | <crestfallen> | "effect" acquired a second meaning broader than that of "side-effect" -- namely, whatever is introduced through a type constructor which is a Monad instance. |
| 22:33:00 | <maerwald> | I'm getting headache reading that :D |
| 22:33:07 | <crestfallen> | :) |
| 22:33:10 | <crestfallen> | sorry |
| 22:33:20 | <maerwald> | Is it lecture notes? |
| 22:33:50 | <crestfallen> | it's SO but it's referring to a Wadler paper |
| 22:34:15 | <maerwald> | He's maybe a bit too smart to explain it simply :p |
| 22:34:38 | <maerwald> | "side-effect" is an even more confusing term too |
| 22:34:44 | <maerwald> | even haskellers get confused about it |
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| 22:35:16 | <crestfallen> | monads encapsulate effects.. so it's something I'll just ignore for a while I gues |
| 22:35:17 | <crestfallen> | s |
| 22:35:28 | hackage | capnp 0.7.0.0 - Cap'n Proto for Haskell https://hackage.haskell.org/package/capnp-0.7.0.0 (isd) |
| 22:35:39 | <maerwald> | did you remeber the Monad instance of Maybe? |
| 22:35:50 | <maerwald> | It starts like this: "instance Monad Maybe where" |
| 22:36:06 | <maerwald> | not "instance Monad Maybe a where" |
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| 22:36:31 | <maerwald> | and in the definition we know nothing about the value |
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| 22:36:36 | <maerwald> | and just do stuff with constructors |
| 22:37:00 | <maerwald> | if you call constructors effects, then yeah, sure |
| 22:37:35 | <crestfallen> | maerwald, thanks I'll sort it out |
| 22:37:58 | hackage | gopro-plus 0.4.1.1 - GoPro Plus Client API. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gopro-plus-0.4.1.1 (dustin) |
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| 22:40:08 | <maerwald> | also, we call `Maybe` a type constructor and Just and Nothing a data constructor |
| 22:40:27 | <maerwald> | often they have the same name, don't mix them up |
| 22:41:18 | <maerwald> | data Foo = Foo Int |
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| 22:44:57 | <crestfallen> | maerwald, thanks. yeah this was very helpful, what you said at the end: "instance Monad Maybe where" not "instance Monad Maybe a where." And in the definition we know nothing about the value, and just do stuff with constructors. If you call constructors effects, then yeah, sure |
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| 23:26:28 | <JohnnyL> | Are there any plans to make haskell for the browser or perhaps a 'mini' version of haskell? |
| 23:26:57 | <monsterchrom> | Does GHCJS count? |
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| 23:27:42 | <monsterchrom> | And the multitude of functional/typed languages like purescript. |
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| 23:28:47 | <JohnnyL> | ok |
| 23:28:49 | <JohnnyL> | i'll have to check. |
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| 23:30:47 | <JohnnyL> | Is ghcjs stable? Or is it same shady buggy product? |
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| 23:31:05 | <monsterchrom> | stable |
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| 23:36:44 | <simon> | apparently much better than before |
| 23:36:44 | <JohnnyL> | ok thanks. |
| 23:36:52 | <yushyin> | 'same' as what? |
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| 23:37:33 | <JohnnyL> | yushyin: s/same/some |
| 23:37:43 | <yushyin> | ah |
| 23:38:16 | <simon> | JohnnyL, haskell for the browser: https://github.com/tweag/asterius#asterius-a-haskell-to-webassembly-compiler |
| 23:39:49 | <simon> | yushyin, I thought he referred to GHCJS being hard to install and based on GHC 7.x for a long time. |
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| 23:41:51 | <simon> | JohnnyL, apparently less mature than GHCJS, but definitely promising. :) |
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| 23:50:20 | <JohnnyL> | I cannot for the sake of me see the entire industry *not* going pure. |
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All times are in UTC on 2020-10-23.