Home freenode/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2020-11-07 (freenode/#haskell)

00:00:01 × feedoo1 quits (~feedoo@178.239.168.171) ()
00:00:14 → merijn joins (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
00:02:12 <ski> (btw, note that nested pattern-matching for sum types, corresponds, dually, to constructing a nested record (constructing an object (implementing some interface), where some method also constructs some object (implementing some interface)))
00:02:52 <ski> oh .. and it would also be nice if one could use an alternative syntax for records, something like
00:03:05 × pfurla quits (~pfurla@ool-182ed2e2.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
00:03:34 <ski> codata Shape = Circumference :: Double & Area :: Double deriving Show
00:03:37 <ski>
00:03:46 <ski> rectangle :: Double -> Double -> Shape
00:04:11 <ski> #Circumference (rectangle w h) = 2 * (w + h)
00:04:35 <ski> #Area (rectangle w h) = w * h
00:04:55 → pfurla joins (~pfurla@64.145.79.100)
00:05:25 × merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
00:05:25 <ski> (one might call this "message-dispatching" syntax (compare with pattern-matching syntax). the language Agda supports something like this, called "copatterns" there)
00:06:12 <ski> (`rectangle' is defined, above, in terms of what each field/method of a call to `rectangle' is to be)
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00:17:37 <cohn> b
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00:18:10 ← Tattletale parts (~Tattletal@unaffiliated/sundancertp) ()
00:18:20 <cohn> yes, it's very helpful. thank you!
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00:47:21 → codygman joins (~codygman@47-184-107-46.dlls.tx.frontiernet.net)
00:49:00 hackage git-brunch 1.4.4.0 - git checkout command-line tool https://hackage.haskell.org/package/git-brunch-1.4.4.0 (andys8)
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00:51:19 <ski> cohn : yw :)
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01:59:05 <bqv> ski: do you know polysemy?
01:59:33 × dbmikus__ quits (~dbmikus@cpe-76-167-86-219.natsow.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
02:00:10 <bqv> Actually, belay that
02:00:22 <bqv> I should just avoid IO, then this is easy
02:00:35 <bqv> DSL time
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05:48:00 hackage gjk2d 0.1.0.3 - https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gjk2d-0.1.0.3 (suzumiya)
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07:33:30 hackage githud 3.2.2 - Heads up, and you see your GIT context https://hackage.haskell.org/package/githud-3.2.2 (gbataille)
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09:32:21 <random> hey guys, is there some way to get all types inside the project which have a specific instance?
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09:39:28 <srk> random: with :i in repl
09:40:05 <random> srk: I mean using template haskell or something
09:41:56 <Athas> Is there a non-quadratic 'nub' in base?
09:42:15 <Athas> Or an easy way to write it? I guess sort following by removing neighbouring duplicates, but I can't find a function that nicely does the latter...
09:43:21 <ski> > (map head . group . sort) "mississippi"
09:43:23 <lambdabot> "imps"
09:43:44 <Athas> Not a big fan of the partial function, but thanks.
09:44:58 <ski> @type map Data.List.NonEmpty.head . Data.List.NonEmpty.group . sort
09:44:59 <lambdabot> Ord b => [b] -> [b]
09:45:38 <Athas> Ah, nice!
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10:11:59 <olligobber> if I type `data Olligobber = Olligobber' into ghci then do `pure Olligobber' nothing happens, but if I type `pure Nothing' it prints Nothing
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10:12:17 <olligobber> so my guess is the default instance for Applicative is IO
10:12:40 <olligobber> and I guess if there's no show instance it doesn't print anything?
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10:22:25 <tomjaguarpaw> Yes, there are some rules like that
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12:28:35 <ironChicken> i'm copying the wx bouncing balls example from <https://wiki.haskell.org/WxHaskell/Quick_start>. there's one very small thing i don't understand. in the expression `varUpdate vballs (bouncing pt:)`, what does that trailing colon do? i assume it's the cons function. so is it being partially applied maybe?
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12:30:24 <c_wraith> ironChicken: that's exactly correct
12:30:36 <c_wraith> ironChicken: it's known as a section, and all operators support them
12:30:53 <int-e> > (1:) [2,3]
12:30:55 <lambdabot> [1,2,3]
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12:31:07 <c_wraith> (with the ugly exception of subtraction in one case)
12:31:13 <int-e> recall that [1,2,3] is 1:(2:(3:[]))
12:31:16 <mastarija> but in this case it seems like an error
12:31:50 <mastarija> something is missing, bouncing takes in a point, not a function
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12:31:57 <ironChicken> c_wraith: ah yes, i see. that makes sense
12:32:06 <__monty__> mastarija: Bouncing gets a point.
12:32:20 <mastarija> it gets (pt:)
12:32:21 <__monty__> mastarija: The result of `bouncing pt` is the first argument to (:).
12:32:37 <mastarija> ah, you are right
12:32:42 <mastarija> it was weirdly formatted
12:32:43 <c_wraith> mastarija: function application has higher precedence than any binary operator
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12:36:27 <c_wraith> hmm. here's a thought. Now that there's -XNegativeLiterals, is it worth having an extension to remove prefix - as an operator?
12:37:05 <c_wraith> I'd happily use negate to not have to worry about special rules about - as a section
12:37:11 <__monty__> Would that entail distinguishing (- 1) and (-1)?
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12:38:08 <c_wraith> yes, but -XNegativeLiterals already makes (1 + -1) parse differently than (1 + - 1)
12:38:10 <ironChicken> i've just re-written it as `varUpdate vballs (\ps -> (bouncing pt) : ps)` which makes it clearer, to me at least
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12:39:26 <__monty__> ironChicken: Parens are rarely a bad idea.
12:39:31 <ski> ironChicken : function application binds tighter than any (normal) operator. that's why you don't have to write `(foo x) + 2 * (bar x y)', you can just write `foo x + 2 * bar x y'
12:40:20 <__monty__> c_wraith: Ah, so just make right-side sections using (-) an error?
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12:40:48 <ski> @type (2 + 3 *) -- i'd like this to not be an error
12:40:50 <lambdabot> error:
12:40:50 <lambdabot> The operator ‘*’ [infixl 7] of a section
12:40:50 <lambdabot> must have lower precedence than that of the operand,
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12:41:31 <ski> it should be `(2 +) . (3 *)', or `\x -> 2 + 3 * x'
12:42:25 <int-e> > (- 1 +) 2
12:42:28 <lambdabot> 1
12:43:11 <ski> i suppose one might call it a "MultiOperatorSection", maybe ?
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12:44:36 <ski> (although, perhaps that name would suggest that one could expect also `(2 + * 3)' to work, which is not what i really had in mind. just the situation, where the "hole", the missing/elided operand occurs either at the start, or at the end, of the tokens wrapped inside the brackets)
12:44:37 <c_wraith> ski: By analogy to TupleSections... (+ *) === \x y z -> x + y * z ?
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12:44:49 <ski> see above ^ :)
12:45:02 <c_wraith> I mean, that is how TupleSections works
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12:45:44 <ski> (and no, not really in analogy to `TupleSections' (i'm not sure they existed, when i first wanted this ..), although i got them in mind, when i wrote the above clarification)
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12:46:20 <c_wraith> They've been around for like 10 years now... Which reminds me I've been using Haskell for longer than that. :)
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12:46:36 <ski> one could perhaps argue for something in analogy to `TupleSections', too, as an extension/generalization of what i was arguing for. but i didn't have that in mind
12:46:48 <ski> heh :)
12:49:22 <ski> if you think of an operator section as "leave out the leading, or trailing, operand", then one's easily lead to this generalization, where you, in terms of AST, have one operator nested inside the operand of another, but where the precedences are such that you don't need to wrap in brackets. and then one could easily want to also be able to "leave out" the leading/trailing operand, despite it being nested
12:49:28 <ski> inside two (or more) operators, not just one
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12:51:27 <ski> @type (take 2 . drop 3 .) -- this is a particular case, which feels annoying, since `.' is an associative operator
12:51:28 <lambdabot> error:
12:51:28 <lambdabot> The operator ‘.’ [infixr 9] of a section
12:51:28 <lambdabot> must have lower precedence than that of the operand,
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13:08:30 hackage mmsyn6ukr 0.9.0.0 - A musical instrument synthesizer or a tool for Ukrainian language listening https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mmsyn6ukr-0.9.0.0 (OleksandrZhabenko)
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14:54:00 hackage haskell-formatter 2.0.3 - Haskell source code formatter https://hackage.haskell.org/package/haskell-formatter-2.0.3 (evolutics)
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15:20:49 <Franciman> hi, what is the state of wxhaskell? It seems to be abandoned
15:21:50 <merijn> Yes, no, maybe?
15:21:56 <[exa]> Franciman: if you totally don't need precisely wxwidgets, I suggest you go with a more lively toolkit
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15:22:16 <[exa]> (if you need them, advice still applies)
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15:22:51 <eayus> I'm trying to use the "cryptonite" package to generate random numbers, however I'm always getting the same result of all bytes=256. I'm using the "getEntropy" function from Crypto.Random.Entropy (https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cryptonite-0.27/docs/Crypto-Random-Entropy.html). It doesn't mention anything about seeding. Anyone have any ideas?
15:23:31 <[exa]> eayus: can you post a minimal (non)working example that does this?
15:23:41 <[exa]> (also, byte value 256 is fishy)
15:23:44 <merijn> That...does not like a function users should be using
15:24:04 <Franciman> [exa], apart from gi-gtk which more lively toolkit is there?
15:24:07 <eayus> I've tried various other functions in the library with the same result
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15:24:18 <eayus> I'll make a pastebin, one sec
15:25:04 <[exa]> Franciman: there's been some fuss about declarative gtk in haskell which I looked at briefly and found quite nice. Gtk is probably the sanest wxw alternative.
15:25:22 <Franciman> the problem with gtk is that I need a treeview with a custom model
15:25:33 <Franciman> but it seems to be really hard to create an instance of TreeModel
15:25:34 <Franciman> :<
15:25:39 <[exa]> here https://wickstrom.tech/programming/2018/09/04/declarative-gtk-programming-with-haskell.html
15:26:05 <eayus> Here is a minimal example of the problem https://pastebin.com/ifLkdiYW
15:26:19 <eayus> Using the bytestring and cryptonite libraries
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15:26:30 <Franciman> thanx [exa]
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15:26:55 <merijn> eayus: What do you need said entropy for? (i.e. is there no simpler/more robust way to get what you need?)
15:27:05 <[exa]> Franciman: untested though
15:27:15 <merijn> oof
15:27:28 <merijn> cryptonite use /dev/random with higher priority than /dev/urandom
15:27:55 <[exa]> eayus: can you instead just read from /dev/urandom as recommended by ....just read merijn's message :D
15:28:11 <merijn> eayus: Basically: Isn't it just easier to read N bytes from /dev/urandom (depends on if you need Windows support, I guess)
15:28:22 <eayus> I just need to generate a cryptographically secure random number. I tried using other functions in the library (such as "seedNew"; etc) with same result
15:28:39 <eayus> I could do that, just seems a bit awkward
15:28:59 <[exa]> eayus: try `getEntropy` from System.Entropy
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15:30:00 <eayus> Ah now that works
15:30:15 <merijn> Crypto.Entropy seems more of an internal thing as the docs in Crypto.Tutorial don't mention any entropy relates thing at all
15:30:49 <eayus> Maybe, but I was tried to follow the method in Crypto.Tutorial and had the same problem
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15:30:55 <[exa]> Franciman: re the treeview model, anything specific?
15:31:23 <Franciman> I have my data structure (which is a bit more involved than a simple list, it's a finger tree that enables me to run interval queries)
15:31:36 <Franciman> I would like to use it as a model for the treeview
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15:31:47 <merijn> eayus: Anyway, I wouldn't necessarily trust my crypto to any of the "native Haskell" libraries due to lack of auditing. I like cryptonite's hashing stuff, but that's much less security sensitive (and trivial to test)
15:31:52 <Franciman> so that I don't have to duplicate data (and thus have problems with undo redo etc)
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15:33:40 <eayus> merijn: This is only for an assignment, so fortunately I don't have to really account for potential vulnerabilities in the libraries I'm using.
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15:33:57 <eayus> However always returning the same random value crossed the line :P
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15:36:18 <merijn> eayus: If it just an assignment is cryptographic randomness really a requirement?
15:36:46 <merijn> If you just need "random" there's much easier ways
15:37:06 <[exa]> Franciman: oh so. Well the general advice is 'do not model', it is very problematic :] Btw., Have you seen immediate-mode GUIs?
15:37:37 <Franciman> yes, is there any binding for haskell?
15:37:52 <Franciman> it's interesting, and could be easier to code
15:38:41 <[exa]> well if you can live with rendered output it's the easiest ever. No idea about the binding though (would love to know myself)
15:38:54 <eayus> merijn: Unfortunately the assignment isn't exactly clear, since otherwise I would just be using System.Random.
15:39:04 <Franciman> I know about imgui
15:39:11 <Franciman> but let's see if there is a binding
15:39:23 <Franciman> what i'd love to avoid is to draw widgets myself
15:39:28 <Franciman> I'm really bad at that :P
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15:39:39 <[exa]> the first google is bad. :D
15:39:48 <merijn> eayus: I'd just use System.Random, send an email to the TAs and then you can always replace it later with "something" (even reading /dev/urandom or something)
15:39:53 <Franciman> even hackage
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15:40:06 <eayus> merijn: Yeah I think that's the best idea
15:40:16 <[exa]> the problem with imgui is that it's a really C-specific hack
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15:40:50 <Franciman> hmm I see
15:40:51 <[exa]> I wondered if we could have something similar atop of State and Lenses instead of the implicit references everywhere, it kinda didn't spawn itself yet
15:41:02 <[exa]> (would be SO COOL with gloss, right? :D )
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15:41:21 <Franciman> that'd be cool indeed
15:42:04 <Franciman> last thing to try is fltkhs, it seems cool, but it *forces* you to use stack
15:42:09 <Franciman> I don't want to use stack
15:42:12 <[exa]> oh noes
15:42:14 <merijn> what?
15:42:17 <merijn> No it doesn't
15:42:37 <Franciman> I tried to build it with cabal
15:42:51 <Franciman> and it doesn't work, I get a strange error about the package not boeing registered
15:42:52 <Franciman> being*
15:43:06 <Franciman> I gotta say I compiled with the bundled flag
15:44:11 <merijn> It *should* work with cabal-install
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15:45:23 <merijn> Ah, looks like a classic case of "fucked up bounds"
15:46:04 <Franciman> merijn, I asked fgaz
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15:46:19 <merijn> Franciman: Which version of cabal-install are you using?
15:46:20 <Franciman> he said that the Setup.hs does Strange^{TM} things with hooks
15:46:30 <Franciman> and he could reproduce the issue
15:46:41 <Franciman> 3.2.0.0
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15:52:13 <tomsmeding> Today I used DataKinds for the first time, and noticed that -Wunticked-promoted-constructors is in -Wall ( https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/using-warnings.html#ghc-flag--Wunticked-promoted-constructors )
15:52:50 <tomsmeding> I had been under the impression that ' was only used if it's necessary for disambiguation, but I'm probably wrong on that part; do people heed that warning normally?
15:53:02 <tomsmeding> (I assume so because it's in -Wall, but still)
15:53:10 <merijn> tomsmeding: It must be new in -Wall, tbh
15:53:24 <merijn> Because when I used DataKinds I never get that warning
15:53:29 <fgaz> Franciman, merijn: Yeah, the package is copied but not registered. I didn't really read the full Setup.hs, I just saw the registerHook and concluded that it's probably because of it. There isn't really any other way to get that error afaik
15:54:07 <tomsmeding> merijn: ghc 8.8.4 here 🤷
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15:54:36 <fgaz> Of course, the bounds are _also_ fucked up
15:54:51 <merijn> fgaz: Of course, because being a good citizen is hard :p
15:55:56 <merijn> I'm going to write a grumpy old man blogpost and yell at people to stop listening to "Timmy, the ADHD monkey" part of their brain when they bitch about needing to write other-modules and adding upperbounds
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15:56:40 <Franciman> I think it's stack's fault
15:56:42 <Franciman> it's hell
15:56:45 <Franciman> in earth
15:57:24 <merijn> I don't like waiting for stop signs or paying taxes either, but goddammit "we live in a society!"
15:57:49 <merijn> Franciman: Stack and FPComplete's encouragement/condoning of lack of upperbounds certainly doesn't help, no
15:58:00 <tomsmeding> merijn: you're going to have to learn some more grumpy old man language :p
15:58:10 <merijn> At least Snoyman was forced to eat his words on committing .cabal files
15:58:30 <merijn> Now they should just disable automatic hpack support in stack >.>
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16:00:44 <tomsmeding> hah! but I outsmarted -Wunticked-promoted-constructors: data LabelType = NodeLabel_ | EnvLabel_ ; type NodeLabel = 'NodeLabel_ ; type EnvLabel = 'EnvLabel_
16:01:18 <merijn> fgaz: Looks at this gorgeous matrix: https://matrix.hackage.haskell.org/#/package/fltkhs/0.8.0.3/
16:01:26 <merijn> tomsmeding: Welcome to 2013 ;)
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16:01:52 <merijn> tomsmeding: That's a documented trick for ensuring users of your code aren't forced to enable DataKinds to use your code :p
16:02:04 <tomsmeding> ah lol
16:02:13 <tomsmeding> yay reinvention of old tricks
16:03:00 hackage miv 0.4.5 - Vim plugin manager written in Haskell https://hackage.haskell.org/package/miv-0.4.5 (itchyny)
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16:03:54 <fgaz> Wait, they didn't switch it off yet? So their build tool does the opposite of their recommendation?
16:04:40 <merijn> fgaz: They didn't stop recommending hpack
16:04:55 <fgaz> merijn re build matrix: I saw that, I saw that :-/
16:05:01 <merijn> fgaz: They merely stopped recommending "don't commit your generated cabal file"
16:05:12 <merijn> fgaz: Did you check the failures?
16:05:23 <Franciman> I'll try to ask fltkhs author if it's possible to support cabal :<
16:05:36 <merijn> Apparently they're using cabal-version 2.0, but then use deprecated fields >.>
16:06:23 <fgaz> merijn: yeah, they don't use build-tool-depends
16:06:50 <merijn> fgaz: Also, which me luck
16:06:57 <merijn> I've decided to embark on a quest
16:07:11 <merijn> The Don Quixotic quest of figuring out run-tool-depends >.>
16:07:51 <fgaz> merijn: well... good luck :D
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16:08:34 <fgaz> hmm, it shouldn't be too different from the current data-files stuff... ...right?
16:09:47 <merijn> fgaz: That's what I thought
16:09:59 <merijn> Then I thought about it for 5 more minutes and realised it is
16:10:02 <merijn> by a lot :p
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16:12:33 <fgaz> merijn: what's the biggest problem you ound?
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16:15:11 <motte> hi, i'm using the dhall library to parse a config file into haskell and i'm having problems with decoding Lists into Sets - dhall defaults to setIgnoringDuplicates which gives errors when duplicates are found
16:15:23 <motte> this is the relevant instance declaration: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dhall-1.36.0/docs/src/Dhall.html#line-1410
16:15:42 <motte> my question is, how can i override the declaration in a reasonable way in my own code?
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16:17:18 <motte> should i define my own type class for the types i want to be decoded with setIgnoringDuplicates so i can write a more specific instance declaration?
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16:33:20 <[exa]> Is there a common name for GADTs that hide an inner type behind typeclass interface?
16:33:59 <[exa]> roughly: data X where ToX :: Someclass a => a -> X
16:34:30 <[exa]> s/name/naming scheme or idiom/
16:36:05 <Franciman> [exa], existential data type?
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16:36:30 <[exa]> uh yes that's true, I was asking more like how to name the types
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16:37:06 <[exa]> say the typeclass is "Fooable", should the type be say "GenericFoo" or "WrappedFooable"?
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16:41:11 <nshepperd> SomeFoo?
16:41:41 <int-e> . o O ( Fooize )
16:42:20 <int-e> Or maybe -ify
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16:44:00 hackage tldr 0.9.0 - Haskell tldr client https://hackage.haskell.org/package/tldr-0.9.0 (psibi)
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16:45:46 <[exa]> hm, sounds like SomeX wins
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16:46:06 <[exa]> -ize and -ify names are superoverloaded by js libs... in this case Selectize
16:46:10 <[exa]> thanks!
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16:59:01 hackage minizinc-process 0.1.1.0 - A set of helpers to call minizinc models. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/minizinc-process-0.1.1.0 (LucasDiCioccio)
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17:01:05 <ski> [exa] : i commonly go for "Some-" or "-able" (assuming the class doesn't end with "able" ..)
17:04:00 <[exa]> it's for wrapping selda queries now, SomeSelect works perfectly (like, I should have asked myself "what's inside? oh yeah some select")
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17:08:10 <ski> (i guess i'm not sure i'm that happy with the naming of `Typeable',`Foldable',`Traversable' .. hmm)
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17:13:13 <merijn> fgaz: The basic problem is this. Suppose we (sensibly!) limit ourselves to executables that in cabal packages
17:13:43 <merijn> fgaz: We "just" have to install those in, say, the libexecdir, obtainable via getLibexecDir to keep prefix independence
17:13:53 hekkaidekapus_ is now known as hekkaidekapus
17:14:18 <merijn> fgaz: Except...what if that executable itself uses getDataDir/etc. to access stuff (or hell, it's own libexecdir with other executables!)
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17:15:32 <merijn> fgaz: If we wanna keep things prefix independent we probably wanna combine that in (sub)directories of our package's prefix, but then you need to change the way the installed executables access those files to point to our package's datadir(s)
17:16:17 <merijn> fgaz: Now, that's not unsolvable, but it'll probably require at least *some* thinking on how to get it right
17:16:46 <merijn> fgaz: Where as with build-dependencies we can just assume they're in the global store, because you don't need to package them
17:17:09 <merijn> (build-tool-depends, I should say)
17:19:06 <Cheery> merijn: I figured out how to do the unit removal.
17:19:42 <Cheery> https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/jmzg57/is_it_possible_to_trim_unit_types_away_from_a_type/
17:20:24 <merijn> reddit's CDN seems to have died :p
17:20:38 <siraben> merijn: how come?
17:21:25 <siraben> Oh it's very slow right now
17:21:31 <merijn> siraben: I get an error
17:21:56 <siraben> "all of our servers are busy right now"
17:22:50 <hekkaidekapus> motte: The setFromDistinctList’s documentation says: “An error is thrown if the list contains duplicates.” You have to ensure you are decoding from a set-like list.
17:23:20 <hekkaidekapus> motte: You can decode a list and convert it to a set in Haskell.
17:23:45 <hekkaidekapus> > S.fromList [1, 1, 2, 3, 3] -- motte
17:23:47 <lambdabot> fromList [1,2,3]
17:24:25 <Cheery> I lost my mouse to my cat and it's a bit awkward to do stuff with a computer right now. Maybe that thing gets back up or smt.
17:24:26 <fgaz> merijn: why can't we assume they're in the global store?
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17:25:32 <fgaz> After all, we do with data files
17:25:58 <merijn> fgaz: Eh, no, we don't
17:26:06 <merijn> fgaz: That's simply their *default* location
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17:26:33 <geekosaur> there's some horribly ugly and fragile hacks for data files, iirc
17:26:45 <merijn> fgaz: It's overridable, so that packagers of, say, apt-get etc. can install them wherever is appropriate for their system
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17:26:57 <merijn> geekosaur: I wouldn't say that
17:27:05 <merijn> It's about as sensible as you can do
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17:27:22 <geekosaur> we may be thinking of different things, I'm thinking of the hack to allow running smething in place before installation
17:27:38 <geekosaur> which iirc only works right with cabal 1.x
17:27:52 <merijn> fgaz: You can't assume thing will be in the store at runtime, because you can't assume there will *be* a store on the machine a user wants to use an executable
17:28:13 <motte> hekkaidekapus: yes, but i'd like that the conversion be done while decoding
17:28:26 <merijn> geekosaur: Eh, I can tell you that every cabal-install between 2.0 and 3.4 has had 0 issues in finding data files of uninstalled executables when using v2-run
17:29:06 <merijn> geekosaur: Because literally everything in my phd project has dependend on that working since 2016 and it never once broke, across all those cabal versions and several systems :p
17:29:07 <motte> hekkaidekapus: i can write a separate instance declaration for every type i plan to keep in a set like this: http://ix.io/2DkK
17:29:43 <matthew-> :t (id,id)
17:29:44 <motte> hekkaidekapus: i'm wondering if there might be a better way
17:29:44 <lambdabot> (a1 -> a1, a2 -> a2)
17:30:01 <matthew-> am I right in thinking the universal quantification is outside the whole thing?
17:30:14 <hekkaidekapus> motte: `list :: Decoder a -> Decoder [a]`. You can do `S.fromList <$> list`.
17:30:39 <matthew-> i.e. (∀A,B.(Tuple ((⊗ ((→ A) A)) (⊗ ((→ B) B))))) ?
17:30:42 <merijn> hekkaidekapus: Well, no, because that exact expression is a type error ;)
17:31:00 <hekkaidekapus> merijn: hehe…
17:31:08 <geekosaur> % :set -fprint-explicit-foralls
17:31:09 <yahb> geekosaur:
17:31:15 <fgaz> merijn geekosaur I fixed data-files in v2-run in my first SoC iirc
17:31:17 <geekosaur> % :t (id,id)
17:31:17 <yahb> geekosaur: forall {a1} {a2}. (a1 -> a1, a2 -> a2)
17:31:23 <merijn> fgaz: \o/
17:31:34 <merijn> fgaz: Well, now you know it wasn't for nothing!
17:31:58 <fgaz> Not too much of an hack, simply an environment variable which overrides hardcoded Paths_ stuff
17:31:58 <motte> hekkaidekapus: there already exists a decoder for decoding lists that contain duplicate elements - setIgnoringDuplicates
17:33:13 <fgaz> merijn: shouldn't distros use the Cabal interface? Otherwise it's just layering build tools for nothing
17:33:36 <fgaz> Which actually is a thing for rust and go, which don't have the Cabal vs cabal-install separation
17:33:48 <hekkaidekapus> motte: Then, what’s wrong with lifting S.fromList into your list decoder? IMO, orphans (what you’re trying to do) and overlapping instances are not worth it in this case.
17:34:04 <merijn> fgaz: How you build doesn't really matter
17:34:42 <merijn> fgaz: The point is that the end result needs to be prefix independent, and installing executables inside "your" prefix which may rely on their own prefix independence isn't obvious
17:34:46 <merijn> Actually
17:34:53 <monochrom> Distros usually use Setup.hs. Setup.hs usually uses the Cabal interface.
17:34:55 <merijn> How *does* that work for libraries
17:35:15 <merijn> fgaz: Well...maybe the problem is already solved :p
17:35:31 <monochrom> Setup.hs also has a lot of command line options that serve distro packaging needs, e.g., separate steps of building, copying.
17:35:50 <dcoutts> prefix independent libs is awkward for libs with data files
17:35:53 <merijn> I mean, cabal-install literally just calls into Setup.hs, so...
17:36:06 <fgaz> with cabal-install you always have the store as runtime dep though
17:36:06 <fgaz> it doesn't, the store is always a dependency
17:36:07 <fgaz> well, unless you are lucky and you have only statically-linked no-data-files stuff
17:36:09 <merijn> dcoutts: But does it even work right now?
17:36:25 <dcoutts> merijn: I think it works for everything except libs with data files
17:36:32 <merijn> dcoutts: ugh
17:36:52 <merijn> dcoutts: Well, on the bright side, if I solve this for run-tool-depends then fixing the library case seems trivial enough
17:37:08 <merijn> Since the problems seem identical
17:37:37 <dcoutts> one needs a convention on how to find lib data files relative to the exe that uses them
17:37:53 <matthew-> geekosaur: thanks - I didn't know about yahb
17:38:18 <merijn> Well, you need a convention on how to *install* things relative to the executable, finding follows trivially from there ;)
17:38:47 <merijn> dcoutts: Do you happen to know where in Cabal the Paths_ generation stuff (roughly) is?
17:39:10 <fgaz> Or you could also just use the same approach as data files (Paths_), and then both can be fixed together... somehow...
17:39:10 <fgaz> I think there's an issue about overhauling Paths_ generation to make it relocatable somewhere
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17:39:36 <merijn> fgaz: It is already relocatable by setting the proper environment variables, I'm pretty sure?
17:39:50 <fgaz> merijn: it's in Cabal/Distribution/Simple/Build/PathsModule.hs
17:39:52 <merijn> Which means packagers just have to indirect via a shell script which sets those correctly
17:40:10 <motte> hekkaidekapus: `S.fromList <$> list` doesn't type check though? not sure how i would use S.fromList with the decoder
17:40:18 <fgaz> merijn: you'd have to set env variables for every dep with data files
17:40:23 <merijn> motte: "fmap S.fromList . list" works
17:40:49 <fgaz> merijn: rather, distros usually just use the Setup.hs interface to install stuff in the right places
17:40:57 <motte> merijn: oh, thanks
17:41:06 <monochrom> May I suggest Windows Registry? >:)
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17:41:48 <dcoutts> merijn, fgaz: what I wanted to do (at some point in the past) was to add a flag --prefix-independent which would "do the right thing" and conflict with any othe config flags that would cause a prefix-dependence. It might require certain conventions (to handle data files etc).
17:41:54 <merijn> fgaz: If that's true (I'm not sure) That's an artifact of the current (mistaken) assumption that there's only a package's install files", rather than "those of the transitive dependencies"
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17:42:30 hackage yesod-auth-hashdb 1.7.1.5 - Authentication plugin for Yesod. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/yesod-auth-hashdb-1.7.1.5 (paulrouse)
17:42:46 <hekkaidekapus> > S.fromList <$> pure [1, 1, 2, 3, 3] -- motte
17:42:48 <lambdabot> error:
17:42:48 <lambdabot> • Ambiguous type variable ‘f0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M442697496552...
17:42:48 <lambdabot> prevents the constraint ‘(Show
17:42:57 <merijn> dcoutts: That's seems reasonable
17:43:13 <motte> hekkaidekapus: but i still need to write an overlapping instance?
17:43:20 <merijn> dcoutts: I dread the thought of adding a flag to cabal(-install), though >.>
17:43:49 <dcoutts> Heh, It's not that bad. This would be primarily a Cabal Setup.hs flag.
17:43:52 <merijn> I don't think any mere mortal understands the weird ass indirection through Setup.hs via Cabal
17:43:57 <monochrom> I have a cunning plan! The lack of --prefix=foo means prefix independence.
17:44:07 <fgaz> merijn: "assumption that there's only a package's install files" isn't that true though? When using the Setup.hs interface of a specific package
17:44:18 <monochrom> How do you like my idea of subtracting a flag? :)
17:44:31 <merijn> monochrom: That won't work, because --prefix would install everything relative to that, which many distros don't do/want
17:44:44 <dcoutts> monochrom: it needs a bit more than that. All the other file flags have to be '$prefix/' for starters.
17:45:06 <merijn> fgaz: It's not, because if you install an executable in a prefix independent way the transitive dependencies linked in need to be able to find their stuff too
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17:45:50 <fgaz> merijn: ah yes, I thought you were referring to the current prefix-dependent way
17:45:50 <dcoutts> monochrom: the benefit of an explicit flag is that it's a clear declaration of intent, so it means it's reasonable for it to impose restrictions, whereas just not specifying --prefix is a bit weak
17:46:12 <fgaz> whoosh
17:46:17 <fgaz> (I think)
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17:46:43 <merijn> monochrom: I like your idea of subtracting a flag IFF you field all user questions/complaints pertaining to it on all social media :)
17:46:48 <merijn> Sounds like a fair deal!
17:47:07 <monochrom> Well yeah once again backward compatibility strikes.
17:47:40 <hekkaidekapus> motte: No because of this: list :: Decoder a -> Decoder [a]; S.fromList :: Ord a => [a] -> S.Set a; What do you think is the type of `fmap S.fromList . list`?
17:47:50 <merijn> All problems with Cabal/cabal-install boil down to two categories: 1) backwards compat and 2) people hate robust future-proof design :)
17:48:13 <merijn> (see the relentless moaning about listing modules and upper bounds)
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17:48:49 <geekosaur> "I never make mistakes!"
17:48:53 <dcoutts> monochrom: it's not just backwards compat: asking for prefix independence really adds constraints compared to prefix-dependence.
17:49:03 <dcoutts> It's not a bad thing to be explicit about that.
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17:53:57 <fgaz> by the way is there any other language / build tool / package manager that can offer prefix independence and supports data files?
17:53:58 <fgaz> and that does that well
17:54:43 <fgaz> ...AppImage I guess :-P
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17:57:09 <geekosaur> docker, sort of?
17:57:24 <geekosaur> more realistically speaking, it's a Hard Problem
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18:12:35 <Cheery> merijn: you or smb. told me about this regex library.
18:13:09 <Cheery> I didk check inside it, I find the exact same implementation as mine.
18:13:28 <Cheery> or oh.. it's a bit different
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18:17:27 <motte> hekkaidekapus: i'm afraid i still don't understand. http://ix.io/2DkX - i get a duplicate instance declaration error
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18:19:02 <hekkaidekapus> motte: Do not define another instance. Could you write out the type of `fmap fromList . list`?
18:19:43 <hekkaidekapus> (Here in the chat)
18:20:56 <motte> Ord a => Decoder a -> Decoder (S.Set a)
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18:23:13 <hekkaidekapus> motte: That type tells you then that you can directly decode a Set.
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18:25:06 <hekkaidekapus> If you want a mnemonic name for the combinator, write `foo :: Ord a => Decoder a -> Decoder (Set a); foo = fmap fromList . list`
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18:26:51 <motte> hekkaidekapus: sure, but i kind of rely on FromDhall instances, as i have many nested types
18:27:13 <motte> hekkaidekapus: some of which contain Sets
18:27:39 <hekkaidekapus> motte: The remaining part is to write a `Decoder Foo`. Since Foo is a record, check Dhall’s `record`.
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18:31:31 <hekkaidekapus> motte: It will something like `record (MkFoo <$> field "baz" strictText <*> field "bar" setIgnoringDuplicates)`.
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18:32:50 <hekkaidekapus> You can continue the (<*>) as long as there are more fields in your record type.
18:33:44 <motte> hekkaidekapus: at the end of the day i'll still need to write something like `instance FromDhall Foo` and use my newly written decoder there
18:34:26 <motte> hekkaidekapus: i fail to see how this is better than writing an overlapping instance
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18:36:49 <hekkaidekapus> motte: Deriving is not necessary. You will parse directly from Dhall and the result will be a Foo. The parsing happens inside the Decoder.
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18:39:19 <hekkaidekapus> motte: The parsing function will be an f = input foo.
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18:40:53 <motte> hekkaidekapus: won't i have to write the whole hierarchy of decoders by hand if i'm not using Deriving?
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18:42:11 <hekkaidekapus> motte: Yeah, you are targetting a custom data type and for that, you need to define the full decoders indeed.
18:42:40 <[exa]> *evil me:* generate them with template haskell
18:42:48 <[exa]> *realistic me:* generate them with CPP!
18:43:20 <hekkaidekapus> [exa]: TH is a bit too much at this stage, I think.
18:44:03 <motte> but why do it if i have it all working with deriving already? is defining an overlapping instance considered terrible style or something?
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18:44:34 <geekosaur> it's a bug waiting to happen
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18:45:50 <hekkaidekapus> motte: What you are talking about is called ‘orphan instances‘. It is usually not a great idea.
18:46:12 <hekkaidekapus> And yes, what geekosaur said about overlapping instances.
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18:47:17 <hekkaidekapus> The instances are orphans when they are defined in a module other than the class where they belong to.
18:47:36 <hekkaidekapus> s/when/because
18:48:00 <koz_> It's not only a bug waiting to happen - it's GHC error vom you can't make sense of that _will_ happen.
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18:48:17 <koz_> (I know because I've had to handle legacy decisions causing this exact problem several times _just this week_)
18:48:37 <koz_> (because people seem to want to shove type classes into every possible hole)
18:48:41 <koz_> (because reasons I guess)
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18:51:29 <hekkaidekapus> Second take: The instances are orphan because they are defined in a module other than the one defining the class where they belong to.
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18:51:59 <motte> well, i see your point, but i'm pretty reluctant to write a ton of boilerplate just to avoid the orphan instances
18:52:31 <monochrom> https://www.michaelpj.com/blog/2020/10/29/your-orphans-are-fine.html
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18:56:10 <hekkaidekapus> motte: Now you have enough data about possible gotchas, it’s up to you to make up your mind about the trade-offs you can afford.
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18:57:14 <motte> hekkaidekapus: indeed, thanks for the help
18:57:28 <hekkaidekapus> yw
18:57:44 <int-e> motte: Hmm, Arbitrary instances are a tricky subject :-/ if you put them in your library, you have a QuickCheck dependency for no particularly good reason, but if you don't, other people cannot reuse the ones you've written... and you probably don't want to split up every library into separate packages for the library, its instances for testing, and the testsuite...
18:57:49 <int-e> uhm
18:57:50 <int-e> monochrom: ^^
18:59:20 <int-e> monochrom: (I know you're not the author of that post. But you brought it up.)
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18:59:54 <monochrom> It is not just Arbitrary.
19:00:49 <c_wraith> orphan instances are not a huge problem in code that you don't distribute. You might need to remove/change them when you update dependencies, but it's not like they're going to break someone else's stuff. You own all your risk. But putting them into a library takes a lot more thought.
19:00:50 <monochrom> You define a data type, you publish it in a published library. You would also like to publish the lenses and prisms associated with that data type.
19:01:02 <monochrom> Some authors decided to split. Some didn't.
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19:01:30 <monochrom> In this case I think the majority chose to split, mytype and mytype-lens.
19:01:30 <c_wraith> But yeah, when the data type and class are in different packages, it's really weird to say one must depend on the other and define the instance.
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19:28:30 hackage r-glpk-phonetic-languages-ukrainian-durations 0.1.0.0 - Can be used to calculate the durations of the approximations of the Ukrainian phonemes. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/r-glpk-phonetic-languages-ukrainian-durations-0.1.0.0 (OleksandrZhabenko)
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19:38:31 hackage ukrainian-phonetics-basic 0.2.0.0 - A library to work with the basic Ukrainian phonetics and syllable segmentation. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ukrainian-phonetics-basic-0.2.0.0 (OleksandrZhabenko)
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20:02:00 hackage r-glpk-phonetic-languages-ukrainian-durations 0.1.1.0 - Can be used to calculate the durations of the approximations of the Ukrainian phonemes. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/r-glpk-phonetic-languages-ukrainian-durations-0.1.1.0 (OleksandrZhabenko)
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20:12:01 hackage r-glpk-phonetic-languages-ukrainian-durations 0.1.2.0 - Can be used to calculate the durations of the approximations of the Ukrainian phonemes. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/r-glpk-phonetic-languages-ukrainian-durations-0.1.2.0 (OleksandrZhabenko)
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20:23:31 hackage json-to-haskell 0.0.1.0 - https://hackage.haskell.org/package/json-to-haskell-0.0.1.0 (ChrisPenner)
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21:04:35 <srid> maralorn: can HLS be installed via nix? without going through the innatities of stack/ raw cabal.
21:04:39 <srid> the `master` branch of it, I mean
21:04:44 <srid> (not the one in nixpkgs)
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21:08:06 <srid> incidentally, ghcide 0.5.0 was released
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21:25:28 <bqv> srid: pkgs.ghcide
21:25:43 <bqv> there's also the hie-nix repo
21:25:51 <bqv> or infinisil's all-hies repo
21:26:06 <srid> bqv: looking for latest development version
21:26:25 <bqv> also, if i have `gets _mylens` using state and lens, how could i change that to use optics?
21:26:46 <bqv> srid: you could override the sources, potentially
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21:26:56 <bqv> i dunno, i tend to just use ghcide
21:27:15 <Cheery> anybody else feel that haskell is horrible once you get to use it?
21:27:26 <koz_> Cheery: Quite the reverse.
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21:27:59 <bqv> ^
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21:28:49 <Cheery> It's better than C++, or GCC, and I'd say today that even Python is worse.
21:28:51 <geekosaur> depends on how you're using it. (thinking of singletons here — dependent Haskell it is not, yet)
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21:28:57 <monochrom> Scheme is the one that is horrible once I get to use it.
21:29:13 <koz_> monochrom: Yeah, and it also depends on _which_ Scheme.
21:29:23 <koz_> Since there's a lot of them, and they differ from each other in quite non-trivial ways.
21:29:57 <monochrom> But they are all horrible in fundamental, common ways.
21:30:29 <monochrom> For example function composition and currying become very verbose and cumbersome.
21:30:40 <lortabac> Cheery: what aspect of Haskell you don't like?
21:31:10 <monochrom> For example I keep making mistakes that are mistakes only because of eager evaluation.
21:32:17 <monochrom> For example pattern matching. Sure, every Scheme in practice offers a pattern matching story, but none is anywhere close to as syntactically lightweight as Haskell.
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21:33:05 <Cheery> lortabac: I'm tripping on them. I mean, one of them is Text/Lazy text
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21:33:19 <Cheery> oh and String on that.
21:33:30 hackage phonetic-languages-properties 0.2.0.0 - A generalization of the uniqueness-periods-vector-properties package. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/phonetic-languages-properties-0.2.0.0 (OleksandrZhabenko)
21:34:29 <Cheery> then I write tons of LANGUAGE pragmas while I eventually need stuff. But many of those things are relatively sane things like overloaded strings are.
21:34:30 hackage pcapng 0.1.0.0 - https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pcapng-0.1.0.0 (MichalGajda)
21:35:43 <Cheery> I fail to like cabal, and setting up projects.
21:36:37 <lortabac> I agree for the pragmas, it's a huge waste of time
21:37:30 <Cheery> I've found all, functional dependencies, GADTs, type families useful
21:37:43 <lortabac> you can put them in Cabal if you want to avoid the pragmas
21:37:56 <lortabac> I mean, in the .cabal file
21:38:02 <Cheery> but them all together make crazy language.
21:38:34 <Cheery> it's like making it impossible for anybody else to touch the code
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21:38:49 <Cheery> because he needs to know so much Haskell first.
21:39:14 <lortabac> Cheery: my professional experience with Haskell is the exact opposite
21:39:53 <lortabac> people tend to understand Haskell code bases faster than other languages
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21:43:41 <Cheery> lortabac: well there are many good things mixed in, but I'm going to look at a networking library that crashes on a connection issue rather than communicate that it can happen through its type.
21:44:28 <Cheery> then bitch about it because it's so bad when you could figure that happens before you run the program.
21:44:52 <Cheery> overall I like it though.
21:45:38 <lortabac> regarding lazy text, I don't understand the problem
21:46:00 <bqv> but regarding string vs text, I do
21:46:03 <pjb> lortabac: that's just because they understand haskell code bases lazily.
21:46:14 <bqv> lol
21:46:15 <lortabac> :)
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21:57:17 <Cheery> I can say it's awe inducing though, that this thing is still working.
21:58:02 <Cheery> and when it works it does good.
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22:03:30 hackage phonetic-languages-examples 0.2.0.0 - A generalization of the uniqueness-periods-vector-examples functionality. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/phonetic-languages-examples-0.2.0.0 (OleksandrZhabenko)
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22:42:00 hackage futhark 0.18.2 - An optimising compiler for a functional, array-oriented language. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/futhark-0.18.2 (TroelsHenriksen)
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22:56:01 <daydaynatation> when I do this: runghc -package inline-c-cpp InlineCPP.hs, I got: Variable not in scope: main :: IO a0
22:56:06 <daydaynatation> why
22:56:18 <daydaynatation> It's just a main function in it
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23:01:33 <bqv> daydaynatation: does it have type IO a?
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23:05:28 <maralorn> srid: I don‘t know. I think writing a default.nix for the hls repo wouldn‘t be to hard.
23:06:30 hackage type-of-html 1.6.1.0 - High performance type driven html generation. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/type-of-html-1.6.1.0 (knupfer)
23:06:42 <daydaynatation> bqv: it has IO ()
23:07:10 <daydaynatation> bqv: i can compile it with ghc without prob
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23:08:51 <daydaynatation> bqv: sorry, just realize the error comes from another source:
23:08:53 <daydaynatation> inline-c-cpp:0:67: error:
23:08:53 <daydaynatation> • Variable not in scope: main :: IO a0
23:08:53 <daydaynatation> • Perhaps you meant ‘min’ (imported from Prelude)
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23:09:37 <bqv> ..are you calling main?
23:09:52 <daydaynatation> yes
23:10:12 <daydaynatation> Does main have to be inside a Main module?
23:10:25 <Tattletale> I believe so, yes
23:10:37 <daydaynatation> I see, let me try
23:10:43 <Tattletale> I've run into issues from GHC when I have main in a module not called Main
23:11:01 hackage type-of-html 1.6.1.1 - High performance type driven html generation. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/type-of-html-1.6.1.1 (knupfer)
23:11:14 <Tattletale> I don't think the file itself needs to be called Main.hs. It just needs that 'module Main' at the top
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23:12:42 <daydaynatation> I see
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23:20:04 <davean> daydaynatation: Why are you calling main?
23:20:27 <davean> and what are you doing with its return there that its wondering about it type?
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23:20:54 <davean> If it *did* have type IO () you'd get a different error
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23:21:13 <davean> daydaynatation: so something you're claiming doesn't add up here.
23:23:30 <daydaynatation> davean: let me post it
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23:25:49 <daydaynatation> davean: https://pastebin.com/CkXuRvK4
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23:27:04 <Tattletale> so it's not actually calling main explicitly
23:28:02 <daydaynatation> Tattletale: why is that>
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23:28:43 <Tattletale> Oh, I was just thinking aloud. I'll try running it locally to see what happens
23:29:04 <davean> But to explain, its because theres no call to main
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23:29:10 <davean> theres just a definition of main, which is fine
23:29:27 <davean> but again we were trying to sort through your claims above, so this helps!
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23:41:43 <Tattletale> daydaynatation: I ran into some issues with the compilation due to the missing header files, so I got rid of them.
23:41:51 <Tattletale> Once I did, I could compile with no problem.
23:42:10 <Tattletale> The only C++ code left in cppTest involves std::cout and std::endl
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23:43:36 <Tattletale> Note that the std::count code doesn't actually print anything for me. When I run the program, nothing is printed
23:43:48 <Tattletale> *cout
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23:50:13 <bqv> the one frustrating thing with haskell(ghc) i find, is that my file structure always ends up with a Namespace.hs and Namespace/ in every folder, and none of my file managers sort those next to each other
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23:55:16 <monochrom> Yeah that could be a bit annoying. I imagine that one day if I'm annoyed enough, I may simply move Namespace.hs to Namespace/IndexHTML.hs :)
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All times are in UTC on 2020-11-07.