Logs on 2020-11-10 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 00:00:54 | ChanServ | sets mode +o monochrom |
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| 00:01:04 | monochrom | sets mode -b+b-o $a:JohnnyL *!*@unaffiliated/johnnyl monochrom |
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| 00:01:32 | <MarcelineVQ> | idk if that was neccesary :> you could just respond with a custom "oh no it's retarded" meme |
| 00:01:44 | <monochrom> | I don't know of that meme. |
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| 00:02:02 | <monochrom> | Actually I know very very few memes. |
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| 00:03:11 | <MarcelineVQ> | https://imgur.com/a/PqP3Lvv |
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| 00:05:06 | <dolio> | Kickban seems more appropriate. |
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| 00:21:57 | <Axman6> | monochrom: a lattice of complications |
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| 00:27:51 | <Axman6> | re: the horology comment |
| 00:28:28 | <ilja> | Hello! Does anybody knows why Elm don't provide public interface for type classes? Seems like it's so useful thing |
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| 00:29:12 | <dolio> | My impression is they think they are 'too complicated' or something. |
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| 00:31:55 | <Axman6> | Elm feels like the Go of the Haskell world to me, a simplification of things people already know how to use, which goes just a little too far and loses a lot of power |
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| 00:33:02 | <ilja> | Interesting is that community and demand for Elm is pretty big in spite of inferior design decisions |
| 00:33:31 | <Axman6> | I wouldn't say inferior. |
| 00:34:00 | <Axman6> | it's supposed to a language aimed at people with no experience in FP, not those with plenty; it raises the skill of the community from the bottom |
| 00:34:50 | <Axman6> | I don't think it takes most people long to say "I just wrote the same thing half a dozen times, why can't I abstract this?" and then start looking at options like GHCJS or purescript |
| 00:35:51 | <ilja> | I'm just curious are there good Elm alternatives but with classes? I did tried replica/concur - looks cool, but I don't think it's ready for commercial usage |
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| 00:36:12 | <Axman6> | purescript? |
| 00:37:26 | <ilja> | Maybe, it looks pretty similar to Haskell, maybe it's a bit easier option for haskeller then elm |
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| 00:43:27 | <jackdk> | so you know how many people can move from one imperative language to another because they're used to the idea that commands are executed in sequence and you break up your program using procedure calls? moving between haskell/ml/elm/purescript/nixlang/dhall starts to feel like that |
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| 00:44:03 | <jackdk> | it takes time, though, and is hard to see when you've just come through the paradigm shift into elm or into haskell or whatever |
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| 00:49:46 | <jackdk> | ilja: so you know how many people can move from one imperative language to another because they're used to the idea that commands are executed in sequence and you break up your program using procedure calls? moving between haskell/ml/elm/purescript/nixlang/dhall starts to feel like that. it takes time, though, and is hard to see when you've just come through the paradigm shift into elm or into haskell or whatever |
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| 00:54:21 | <ilja> | jackdk well, maybe for me it's just better to use some client framework like miso - basically I'm looking for possibilities to write frontend with minimal friction |
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| 00:54:55 | <ilja> | unfortunately elm looks like too much friction for me |
| 00:55:23 | <ilja> | maybe you can recommend me good client side frameworks just in haskell? |
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| 01:12:04 | <Guest_36> | Getting this error message while building ghcup: "_eghcup --cache install ghc recommended" failed!. Can someone help? |
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| 01:31:04 | <sm[m]> | paging maerwald |
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| 01:42:30 | hackage | predicate-typed 0.7.4.3 - Predicates, Refinement types and Dsl https://hackage.haskell.org/package/predicate-typed-0.7.4.3 (gbwey) |
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| 01:53:30 | hackage | hsaml2 0.1.1 - OASIS Security Assertion Markup Language (SAML) V2.0 https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hsaml2-0.1.1 (DylanSimon) |
| 01:53:51 | <GreeboSnabble> | Is there a way to put a constraint on a type parameter without using it up? |
| 01:54:20 | <GreeboSnabble> | Like (Ord k) => M.Map k |
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| 01:55:00 | <GreeboSnabble> | Except I want it to be of kind * -> * -> * |
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| 01:55:37 | <erisco> | no, constraints cannot be lifted |
| 01:56:04 | <GreeboSnabble> | Thanks :\ |
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| 02:39:26 | <hololeap> | % :t handle |
| 02:39:26 | <yahb> | hololeap: forall {e} {a}. Exception e => (e -> IO a) -> IO a -> IO a |
| 02:39:32 | <hololeap> | % :t handle print |
| 02:39:32 | <yahb> | hololeap: ; <interactive>:1:1: error:; * Ambiguous type variable `a0' arising from a use of `handle'; prevents the constraint `(Exception a0)' from being solved.; Probable fix: use a type annotation to specify what `a0' should be.; These potential instances exist:; instance Exception NestedAtomically -- Defined in `Control.Exception.Base'; instance Exception NoMethodError -- D |
| 02:39:42 | <hololeap> | i don't understand this |
| 02:39:58 | <hololeap> | any Exception is also an instance of Show |
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| 02:43:42 | <glguy> | hololeap: you have to pick one exception type in particular |
| 02:44:05 | <glguy> | and you've lost the ability to specify which one you're picking |
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| 02:47:08 | <glguy> | % :set -XAllowAmbiguousTypes |
| 02:47:08 | <yahb> | glguy: |
| 02:47:24 | <glguy> | % let f :: forall e. Exception e => IO () -> IO (); f = handle @e print |
| 02:47:24 | <yahb> | glguy: |
| 02:48:06 | <glguy> | % f @SomeException (fail "glguy") |
| 02:48:07 | <yahb> | glguy: user error (glguy) |
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| 02:53:55 | <hololeap> | is there any way to do this without enabling AllowAmbiguousTypes for the whole module? |
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| 02:56:03 | <glguy> | hololeap: put a type signature on print |
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| 02:56:33 | <glguy> | % :t handle (print :: SomeException -> IO ()) |
| 02:56:33 | <yahb> | glguy: IO () -> IO () |
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| 02:57:01 | hackage | vulkan 3.6.13 - Bindings to the Vulkan graphics API. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vulkan-3.6.13 (jophish) |
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| 03:07:30 | <GreeboSnabble> | Is there a type level version of const? |
| 03:07:45 | <GreeboSnabble> | like typeConst :: * -> * -> * |
| 03:08:19 | <c_wraith> | Control.Applicative.Const ? |
| 03:08:57 | <c_wraith> | Haskell doesn't have type-level lambdas, so newtypes like that are as close as you get |
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| 03:10:43 | <GreeboSnabble> | Thanks, looks pretty good |
| 03:12:01 | <hololeap> | glguy: cool, seems to work |
| 03:12:17 | <hololeap> | ideally, i would also like to log the exception type |
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| 03:17:16 | <jle`> | hololeap: you can use SomeException for that |
| 03:17:22 | <jle`> | but that would catch all exceptions |
| 03:17:31 | <jle`> | which is sort of not recommended unless you know how it could go wrong |
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| 03:17:55 | <jle`> | hololeap: remember the goal of `handle` is to "peel off" specific exception types; the function you give it will tell it which exception types to catch |
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| 03:20:00 | hackage | reflex-gadt-api 0.2.1.0 - Interact with a GADT API in your reflex-dom application. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/reflex-gadt-api-0.2.1.0 (abrar) |
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| 03:22:43 | <hololeap> | jle`: my approach for right now is just to log the exception and have the program abort |
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| 03:23:52 | <hololeap> | there aren't too many exceptions that would happen. IO is really the only one i can imagine |
| 03:26:41 | <hololeap> | and i don't have any plan currently for handling those, thus just log them and quit, which i should be able to do with any exception, assuming it happens within the `handle` block |
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| 03:31:27 | <jle`> | yeah, if you give `handle` a `SomeException -> IO a`, then it will handle all exceptions |
| 03:31:37 | <jle`> | if you give it a `IOException -> IO a`, it will handle only IOException |
| 03:31:40 | <jle`> | etc. |
| 03:31:53 | <jle`> | so handle is type-directed, like `read` |
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| 04:49:16 | <bqv> | :t (.*) |
| 04:49:17 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 04:49:17 | <lambdabot> | • Variable not in scope: .* |
| 04:49:17 | <lambdabot> | • Perhaps you meant one of these: |
| 04:49:31 | <bqv> | :t Data.Composition.(.*) |
| 04:49:32 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 04:49:32 | <lambdabot> | Not in scope: data constructor ‘Data.Composition’ |
| 04:49:32 | <lambdabot> | No module named ‘Data’ is imported. |
| 04:49:56 | <bqv> | Data.Composition (.*) :: (c -> d) -> (a -> b -> c) -> a -> b -> d |
| 04:50:12 | <bqv> | What a goddamn specific function |
| 04:50:36 | <bqv> | (only came across it thanks to pointfree) |
| 04:51:41 | <bqv> | (but I think this pointfree transformation is too heinous even for me) |
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| 04:56:59 | <jle`> | fwiw the syntax is (Data.Composition.*) |
| 04:57:27 | <jle`> | :t (Prelude.+) |
| 04:57:28 | <lambdabot> | Num a => a -> a -> a |
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| 05:12:30 | hackage | happy-hour 0.0.0.2 - Generate simple okay-looking bar plots without much effort https://hackage.haskell.org/package/happy-hour-0.0.0.2 (Monoid_Mary) |
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| 05:19:24 | <siraben> | Is there a Haskell library to automatically benchmark and compare two functions? |
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| 05:20:18 | <ammar2> | siraben: criterion |
| 05:21:10 | <siraben> | ammar2: thanks |
| 05:21:40 | <Axman6> | there's acouple of alternatives but criterion is still the goto |
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| 05:37:52 | day_ | is now known as day |
| 05:38:07 | <sm[m]> | timeit is also good for simple timing |
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| 05:44:58 | <Axman6> | just learned about https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bench, looks like a nice `time` replacement |
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| 06:43:38 | <bqv> | Why were affine traversals removed from lens? |
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| 06:46:34 | <dibblego> | they have no purpose |
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| 07:06:48 | <bqv> | Well, say I have an affinetraversal to an (index, value) pair, how do I make that into an indexed(affine)traversal? |
| 07:07:10 | <bqv> | I see withIndex, but it seems wrong |
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| 07:30:01 | <bqv> | No, right, withIndex is the reverse of what I want |
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| 07:46:00 | hackage | ukrainian-phonetics-basic 0.2.0.2 - A library to work with the basic Ukrainian phonetics and syllable segmentation. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ukrainian-phonetics-basic-0.2.0.2 (OleksandrZhabenko) |
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| 07:54:19 | <idnar> | bqv: they need classes that are a bit tricky to fit in, so the hassle isn't worth the benefit |
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| 07:57:14 | <bqv> | Ah ok |
| 07:59:11 | <idnar> | bqv: I think you want https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-4.19.2/docs/Control-Lens-Indexed.html#v:indexing maybe |
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| 08:00:45 | <idnar> | bqv: or replace a traversed with an itraversed |
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| 08:03:55 | <idnar> | https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/60fha5/affine_traversal/ |
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| 08:06:18 | <dibblego> | what is the operation on affine traversal that cannot be performed without it? |
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| 08:15:38 | <bqv> | idnar: currently constructed the traversal by composing a lens and a prism (hence affine), so no traversed to replace. I think I can get away with some dirty tricks if I fudge that lens hard, though |
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| 08:23:35 | <bqv> | Ok yeah, got it. Made the lens indexed by Maybe idx, then applied the prism, then reindexed with fromJust |
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| 08:25:18 | <bqv> | Feck, that doesn't work |
| 08:25:28 | <bqv> | Now I have imaginary functional dependencies |
| 08:25:50 | <bqv> | I should cut my losses and use optics… |
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| 08:49:26 | <bqv> | Hm, got it. |
| 08:49:55 | <bqv> | If I use Data.Tuple.Lazy, I can do fromJust in the ilens |
| 08:50:25 | <bqv> | Never gets evaluated, but its enough to give me a sensible indexedlens |
| 08:50:39 | <bqv> | And the prism is index preserving |
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| 08:52:39 | <dminuoso> | 09:47:30 bqv | [06:43:38] Why were affine traversals removed from lens? |
| 08:53:03 | <dminuoso> | bqv: To implement affine traversals with the van laarhoven encoding, you'd need to split Applicative into Pointed and Ap, such that affine would use Pointed only |
| 08:53:06 | <dminuoso> | % :i Traversal |
| 08:53:07 | <yahb> | dminuoso: type role ReifiedTraversal representational nominal representational nominal; type ReifiedTraversal :: * -> * -> * -> * -> *; newtype ReifiedTraversal s t a b = Traversal {...}; -- Defined in `Control.Lens.Reified'; type Traversal :: * -> * -> * -> * -> *; type Traversal s t a b = forall (f :: * -> *). Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t; -- Defined in `Control.Lens.Type' |
| 08:53:33 | <dminuoso> | So you'd have `type AffineTraversal s t a b = forall f. Pointed f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t` |
| 08:55:00 | <bqv> | That doesn't seem prohibitive, surely have (Pointed, Ap) => Applicative and it's nondestructive? |
| 08:55:49 | <dminuoso> | Well, the usefulness depends on how many things have Pointed instances... |
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| 08:57:03 | <dminuoso> | With profunctor this is SIMPLER since you can say: type AffineTraversal s t a b = forall p. (Strong p, Choice p) => a `p` b -> s `p` t |
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| 08:58:06 | <bqv> | Hmm |
| 08:58:12 | <dminuoso> | bqv: So the issue with Pointed is just, you'd have to modify the Applicative class |
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| 08:58:27 | <bqv> | Fair |
| 08:58:32 | <dminuoso> | such that `class Pointed f => Applicative f where (<*>) :: f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b` |
| 08:58:41 | <dminuoso> | so this is not a change you can simply ship in a library |
| 08:58:56 | <dminuoso> | You'd have to provide your own applicative class, which is then not compatible with Applicative, and so on.. |
| 08:59:34 | <bqv> | Another FMA-level reshuffle |
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| 09:00:21 | <dminuoso> | So if you dont do that superclass, then you cant compose an affine traversal with say a traversal and obtain a traversal. |
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| 09:00:35 | <dminuoso> | So you get a lot of inelegancy from that |
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| 09:04:54 | <dminuoso> | bqv: For additional thoughts, refer to http://oleg.fi/gists/posts/2017-03-20-affine-traversal.html |
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| 09:07:58 | <bqv> | I was linked that earlier, interesting |
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| 09:08:41 | <dminuoso> | bqv: phadej has quite a few entries on optics and profunctor optics, you should check the rest of his blog |
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| 09:54:34 | <idnar> | bqv, dminuoso: the laws are also awkward because `(Pointed f, Ap f) => f` doesn't necessarily follow the Applicative laws (see thread at <https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/60fha5/affine_traversal/>) |
| 09:55:24 | <dminuoso> | What laws? |
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| 09:57:48 | <idnar> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.0.0/docs/Control-Applicative.html#t:Applicative |
| 09:58:25 | <dminuoso> | No I meant, in what sense wouldnt that follow the applicative laws? |
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| 10:01:42 | <idnar> | in the sense that you can define lawful Pointed and Ap instances that don't combine to fulfil the Applicative laws |
| 10:02:00 | <dminuoso> | well that isnt really saying much |
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| 10:02:19 | <merijn> | idnar: lawful Pointed instances are trivial |
| 10:02:23 | <merijn> | There are no laws |
| 10:02:26 | <dminuoso> | laws are a contracts between the programmer and the compiler |
| 10:02:30 | <dminuoso> | its your job to ensure coherence |
| 10:02:46 | <dminuoso> | If you write Pointed an Ap instances that dont follow laws, that's on you |
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| 10:03:18 | <idnar> | the thread covers the issues with various solutions to that, I don't think I can adequately summarize it |
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| 10:04:32 | <idnar> | err I meant to link https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/60fha5/affine_traversal/df6830k/ |
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| 10:14:30 | hackage | js-chart 2.9.4 - Obtain minified chart.js code https://hackage.haskell.org/package/js-chart-2.9.4 (jonascarpay) |
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| 10:32:00 | hackage | ghc-typelits-extra 0.4.1 - Additional type-level operations on GHC.TypeLits.Nat https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-typelits-extra-0.4.1 (ChristiaanBaaij) |
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| 10:33:20 | <dminuoso> | Well, these are just ergonomics and elegancy issues |
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| 10:33:48 | <dminuoso> | There could be things just Pointed, things just Ap, and things that are Applicative (which satisfy laws common to both) |
| 10:34:02 | <dminuoso> | or rather, there's an interaction between these laws |
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| 10:35:11 | <dminuoso> | the thread is an interesting read tho |
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| 10:38:47 | <dminuoso> | % (:+) :: Char -> Int -> Char |
| 10:38:47 | <yahb> | dminuoso: ; <interactive>:36:1: error:; * Couldn't match type `Complex Int' with `Char'; Expected type: Char -> Int -> Char; Actual type: Int -> Int -> Complex Int; * In the expression: (:+) :: Char -> Int -> Char; In an equation for `it': it = (:+) :: Char -> Int -> Char |
| 10:38:52 | <dminuoso> | Huh |
| 10:38:57 | <dminuoso> | % (:+++++) :: Char -> Int -> Char |
| 10:38:57 | <yahb> | dminuoso: ; <interactive>:37:1: error: Data constructor not in scope: (:+++++) :: Char -> Int -> Char |
| 10:39:15 | <dminuoso> | Why is this looking in the data constructor namespace? |
| 10:39:40 | <dminuoso> | Or is value level : always understood to be constructors? |
| 10:39:44 | <merijn> | Because it starts with a : |
| 10:39:45 | <merijn> | Yes |
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| 10:40:43 | <merijn> | : is the "capital" operator symbol |
| 10:40:44 | <dminuoso> | Ah fair enough, +: it is then. |
| 10:40:58 | <dminuoso> | merijn: Ah I guess its similar to how : is for type constructors in the type level? |
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| 10:46:43 | <invaser> | Hi! Does anyone have a good guide to project management with cabal and testing in Haskell? |
| 10:47:06 | <dminuoso> | invaser: What do you mean by project management exactly? |
| 10:47:37 | <invaser> | dminuoso: idk, probably some materials on how to work with cabal, best practices etc |
| 10:48:22 | <dminuoso> | invaser: cabal has a very comprehensive and good documentation |
| 10:48:42 | <invaser> | that's probably a good place to start |
| 10:48:52 | <dminuoso> | mmm, not as much for testing though it seems |
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| 10:50:23 | <invaser> | i'm writing my coursework with haskell, so I'm quite excited to start working on it! Though it's the first time I needed to manage project that's more that a single file, so I thought I need to learn about stack before starting |
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| 10:53:04 | <dminuoso> | invaser: so essentially a test-suite is similar to an executable component in cabal |
| 10:53:30 | hackage | r-glpk-phonetic-languages-ukrainian-durations 0.1.4.0 - Can be used to calculate the durations of the approximations of the Ukrainian phonemes. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/r-glpk-phonetic-languages-ukrainian-durations-0.1.4.0 (OleksandrZhabenko) |
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| 10:55:32 | <dminuoso> | invaser: See also https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-package.html?highlight=test-suite#test-suites |
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| 10:56:37 | <dminuoso> | That's for configuring a test suite in .cabal files |
| 10:56:42 | <dminuoso> | You can execute them with `cabal test` |
| 10:57:16 | <dminuoso> | (Well, the linked section has it all) |
| 10:57:18 | <dminuoso> | It's not much though |
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| 11:29:30 | hackage | generic-aeson 0.2.0.11 - Derivation of Aeson instances using GHC generics. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/generic-aeson-0.2.0.11 (ErikHesselink) |
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| 11:32:47 | <merijn> | invaser: You have seen https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/latest/nix-local-build-overview.html already? |
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| 11:45:58 | <invaser> | merijn: No, I haven't |
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| 11:47:02 | <merijn> | invaser: In general the cabal docs there are quite complete, but you probably wanna distill it down to something more minimal and directly usable for a course |
| 11:47:38 | <invaser> | Ok, but I intend to use stack though. Are cabal docks relevant to it? |
| 11:47:46 | <merijn> | ah, then no :p |
| 11:47:56 | <merijn> | Or, well, a bit |
| 11:48:23 | <merijn> | invaser: Actually, if you're gonna write anything about Haskell tooling for others, make sure you read this first: https://gist.github.com/merijn/8152d561fb8b011f9313c48d876ceb07 :) |
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| 11:50:52 | <merijn> | invaser: Chapter 4/7/10 of those cabal docs are relevant to points 1 & 2 from that gist, and thus also relevant for stack users (if only as reference for .cabal files) |
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| 12:00:30 | hackage | magicbane 0.5.0 - A web framework that integrates Servant, RIO, EKG, fast-logger, wai-cli… https://hackage.haskell.org/package/magicbane-0.5.0 (myfreeweb) |
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| 12:04:19 | <dminuoso> | Id like to see the transitive dependency tree on magicbane. |
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| 12:05:04 | <merijn> | You mispelled transitive dependency *forest* :p |
| 12:06:19 | <dminuoso> | heh |
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| 12:10:38 | <dminuoso> | Does GHC haskell expose exit(2) somewhere? |
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| 12:11:17 | <merijn> | unix has it |
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| 12:11:46 | <dminuoso> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/unix-2.7.2.2/docs/System-Posix-Process.html#v:exitImmediately |
| 12:11:48 | <dminuoso> | Perfect, thanks |
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| 12:23:30 | hackage | r-glpk-phonetic-languages-ukrainian-durations 0.2.0.0 - Can be used to calculate the durations of the approximations of the Ukrainian phonemes. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/r-glpk-phonetic-languages-ukrainian-durations-0.2.0.0 (OleksandrZhabenko) |
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| 12:24:51 | <bqv> | hey, the lens operator `^@?` |
| 12:25:00 | <bqv> | is there a non operator form of it |
| 12:25:05 | <bqv> | or do i have to manually fold and head |
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| 12:26:19 | <dminuoso> | "non operator"? |
| 12:26:34 | <dminuoso> | You can use ^@?! |
| 12:26:45 | <dminuoso> | but you must use non yourself I guess? |
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| 12:27:01 | <dminuoso> | so: f . non blah ^@?! s |
| 12:27:06 | <bqv> | i mean word form |
| 12:27:10 | <bqv> | trying to avoid the operators |
| 12:27:21 | <bqv> | e.g. ^. -> view |
| 12:27:24 | <bqv> | .~ -> set |
| 12:27:26 | <dminuoso> | well sure |
| 12:27:29 | <dminuoso> | you can just look at the implementation |
| 12:27:36 | <dminuoso> | they're just simple ifoldrOf |
| 12:27:44 | <dminuoso> | s ^@? l = ifoldrOf l (\i x _ -> Just (i,x)) Nothing s |
| 12:27:55 | <dminuoso> | Also, you can bind it to a name yourself if you want |
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| 12:28:26 | <bqv> | damn, that's a pretty spicy expression though |
| 12:30:19 | <dminuoso> | % :t foldr |
| 12:30:19 | <yahb> | dminuoso: forall {t :: * -> *} {a} {b}. Foldable t => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> t a -> b |
| 12:30:31 | <dminuoso> | % :t ifoldrOf |
| 12:30:31 | <yahb> | dminuoso: forall {i} {r} {s} {a}. IndexedGetting i (Endo r) s a -> (i -> a -> r -> r) -> r -> s -> r |
| 12:30:40 | <dminuoso> | % :t foldrOf |
| 12:30:41 | <yahb> | dminuoso: forall {r} {s} {a}. Getting (Endo r) s a -> (a -> r -> r) -> r -> s -> r |
| 12:30:44 | <dminuoso> | Do you see how they are similar? |
| 12:31:07 | <dminuoso> | % :t foldrOf id |
| 12:31:07 | <yahb> | dminuoso: forall {s} {r}. (s -> r -> r) -> r -> s -> r |
| 12:31:10 | <dminuoso> | % :t foldr |
| 12:31:11 | <yahb> | dminuoso: forall {t :: * -> *} {a} {b}. Foldable t => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> t a -> b |
| 12:31:37 | <dminuoso> | % :t foldrOf folded |
| 12:31:37 | <yahb> | dminuoso: forall {f :: * -> *} {a} {r}. Foldable f => (a -> r -> r) -> r -> f a -> r |
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| 12:36:35 | <tomsmeding> | are those hidden type parameters? |
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| 12:52:26 | <bqv> | ah |
| 12:52:30 | <bqv> | i can use pre |
| 12:52:32 | <bqv> | and ipre |
| 12:52:35 | <bqv> | that's way nicer |
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| 12:53:22 | <bqv> | wait |
| 12:53:25 | <bqv> | that's what preview is |
| 12:53:31 | <bqv> | goddammit |
| 12:53:44 | <bqv> | dminuoso: ipreview |
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| 13:11:45 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: "Id like to see the transitive dependency tree on magicbane." |
| 13:11:47 | <tomsmeding> | https://tomsmeding.com/f/hackage-magicbane.png |
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| 13:13:01 | <tomsmeding> | (actual version resolution not performed, just taken the list of links on hackage.haskell.org/package/$pkgname/dependencies) |
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| 13:13:28 | <merijn> | That doesn't work for conditional ones :) |
| 13:13:59 | <tomsmeding> | also true |
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| 13:15:46 | <tomsmeding> | the bash script has 42 lines though, not going to change that |
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| 13:17:37 | <int-e> | "only" 160 packages |
| 13:17:49 | <int-e> | (but that's an actual install plan) |
| 13:17:58 | <hekkaidekapus> | You can build it locally and `cabal-plan dot-png`. |
| 13:18:26 | <tomsmeding> | I was attempting to get a graph _without_ building the thing :p |
| 13:18:35 | <int-e> | I don't find graphviz generated images all that useful at this scale |
| 13:18:45 | <tomsmeding> | int-e: the image is completely useless |
| 13:18:52 | <tomsmeding> | did I ever say it was useful? :) |
| 13:18:59 | <int-e> | did I write "completely useless"? |
| 13:19:16 | <int-e> | (two can play that game) |
| 13:19:22 | <tomsmeding> | fair point :) |
| 13:19:24 | <hekkaidekapus> | `cabal-plan dot` only then. And import the graph in any other former of your liking. |
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| 13:20:17 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: it's embarrassing how many edges end in ghc-prim at the bottom :P |
| 13:20:40 | <tomsmeding> | lots of packages that perform hacks? :p |
| 13:20:40 | <int-e> | Conclusion: Haskell sucks at abstraction. |
| 13:20:47 | <maerwald> | lol |
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| 13:21:24 | <tomsmeding> | 45 edges to be exact |
| 13:21:41 | <tomsmeding> | aeson base ghc-prim integer-gmp integer-simple bytestring deepseq binary hashable text template-haskell pretty integer-logarithms transformers semigroups tagged transformers-compat generic-deriving th-abstraction bifunctors base-orphans distributive contravariant void data-fix strict these vector haskell-src-exts th-orphans th-lift ekg-core cryptonite basement memory data-default-class psqueues |
| 13:21:41 | <tomsmeding> | zlib warp text-show http-client network-uri cereal clock QuickCheck |
| 13:22:00 | <tomsmeding> | I guess most make sense? |
| 13:22:22 | <maerwald> | are there any good resources on how to convert your haskell data appropriately for C? |
| 13:22:35 | <maerwald> | despite primitive types |
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| 13:22:50 | <bqv> | like storable or..? |
| 13:22:56 | <maerwald> | I'm thinking just string and use json under the hood :p |
| 13:23:16 | <bqv> | spicy modern marshalling |
| 13:23:19 | <bqv> | web scale |
| 13:23:30 | <maerwald> | yes, can also make it a microservice later |
| 13:23:34 | <bqv> | :D |
| 13:24:09 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: good lord |
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| 13:24:59 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: to be fair, you should probabl do transitive reduction. |
| 13:25:32 | <tomsmeding> | meaning, if a->b->c and a->c, don't display a->c ? |
| 13:25:40 | <dminuoso> | yeah, cabal-plan can do that for you with -tred |
| 13:25:55 | <dminuoso> | (or rather, given those two a->b->c would be hidden) |
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| 13:26:20 | <tomsmeding> | with a->b->c I meant a->b and b->c |
| 13:26:25 | <tomsmeding> | hiding those loses information, right? |
| 13:26:34 | <tomsmeding> | can I use cabal-plan without actually building the thing? |
| 13:26:40 | <dminuoso> | well, so assume you have `a->c`, `a->b` and `b->c` |
| 13:26:48 | <dminuoso> | with transitive reductions the last would be gone |
| 13:27:07 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: you can abort as soon as it starts building |
| 13:27:10 | <dminuoso> | you just need the cabal plan |
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| 13:27:56 | <int-e> | dminuoso: is that fair? you depend on a package explicitly if you use its functionality. with your suggestion, all the edges to ghc-prim would be gone... (I guess the question is what you want to express... for building plan purposes, transitive reduction is fine; for semantic dependencies, the transitive edges carry information) |
| 13:28:02 | <tomsmeding> | interesting choice to remove b->c, I guess it makes sense if you're not interested in the dependencies' subtrees, just where everything comes from in relation to the top package |
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| 13:28:24 | <int-e> | (all -> all except the integer-gmp one, I'd guess) |
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| 13:28:57 | <dminuoso> | int-e: it depends on what knowledge you hope to gain. tred is usually helpful with dependency graphs because you don't necessarily care which packages exactly depend on integer-gmp, because as soon as *any* depends on it, you have it. |
| 13:29:13 | <dminuoso> | (so you might rather be interested which package "first" depends on it from top-to-bottom) |
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| 13:29:49 | <int-e> | so yeah, it depends on what you're trying to do |
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| 13:31:03 | <tomsmeding> | interesting, I can't even seem to get a build plan |
| 13:31:34 | <int-e> | I had to go back to ghc-8.6.5 |
| 13:33:05 | <bqv> | goddammit, no wonder i've been getting cursed type errors |
| 13:33:11 | <bqv> | i've been using two lens libraries by accident |
| 13:33:35 | <bqv> | one of these optics is not like the other |
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| 13:34:09 | <hekkaidekapus> | tomsmeding, int-e: give stack2cabal a try, otherwise the package is not in a good shape. <https://matrix.hackage.haskell.org/#/package/magicbane> |
| 13:34:49 | <int-e> | meh |
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| 13:36:21 | <int-e> | though tbf I wasn't going to compile it anyway |
| 13:36:23 | <dminuoso> | hekkaidekapus: what does stack2cabal do? |
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| 13:36:48 | <dminuoso> | I mean in order to find a build plan, it shouldnt be necessary |
| 13:36:54 | <maerwald> | dminuoso: it creates a cabal.project and cabal.project.freeze based on stack.yaml |
| 13:37:03 | <hekkaidekapus> | It converts a stack resolver into a cabal.freeze and creates a .cabal file. |
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| 13:37:04 | <dminuoso> | For the above excercise, hpack should be fine |
| 13:37:18 | <dminuoso> | (because losing constraints actually would help) |
| 13:37:25 | <maerwald> | dminuoso: depends, if there are git repos defined in stack.yaml, hpack won't be enough |
| 13:37:37 | <dminuoso> | ah |
| 13:37:57 | <int-e> | mmm -- This file has been generated from package.yaml by hpack version 0.34.2. |
| 13:38:14 | <int-e> | (that's from the package description on hackage) |
| 13:39:27 | <hekkaidekapus> | int-e: Yeah, if you look at <https://github.com/myfreeweb/magicbane>, there is no magicbane.cabal. I guess it is generated as part of the upload process. |
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| 13:40:39 | <tomsmeding> | fwiw dependency graph using cabal-plan: https://tomsmeding.com/vang/Wsf6Q2/deps.png; I thought I could improve my graph by making it left-to-right as well but it's a similar mess |
| 13:41:18 | <tomsmeding> | (ghcup is cool) |
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| 13:42:27 | <hekkaidekapus> | (Went down from 20.9M to 5344k.) |
| 13:43:12 | <dminuoso> | Mmm, I feel like there could be more transparency with regard to build plans and transitive dependencies. |
| 13:43:23 | <dminuoso> | It's too easy to lose track of how much you pull in time after time |
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| 13:44:01 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps this kind of functionality should be more accessible? Confronting people with the transitive dep graph may be helpful |
| 13:44:22 | <tomsmeding> | though it's probably hard because the build plan may be different for any particular base version and such |
| 13:44:30 | hackage | morley 1.9 - Developer tools for the Michelson Language https://hackage.haskell.org/package/morley-1.9 (gromak) |
| 13:44:51 | <dminuoso> | Well you cant do that on hackage, because transitive dependencies depend on a particular build plan |
| 13:45:06 | <dminuoso> | right |
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| 13:45:30 | hackage | lorentz 0.7.1 - EDSL for the Michelson Language https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lorentz-0.7.1 (gromak) |
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| 13:47:39 | <maerwald> | well, start by telling me how I get a build plan with stack |
| 13:48:00 | <maerwald> | I actually need that. One reason would be to compare its build-plan with a cabal generated one |
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| 13:53:18 | <dminuoso> | maerwald: hekkaidekapus linked a tool above to do that |
| 13:53:29 | <dminuoso> | or.. |
| 13:53:31 | <dminuoso> | no mmm |
| 13:55:34 | <maerwald> | dminuoso: yes, I maintain that. But you still have no guarantee that you have the exact same build plan |
| 13:55:54 | <maerwald> | e.g. one problem is that cabal may treat git repos a little different |
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| 13:57:41 | <hekkaidekapus> | In short, it would be good if there were a stack-lib published somewhere. |
| 13:58:01 | <maerwald> | that too |
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| 14:03:18 | <maerwald> | and if stack and cabal can agree on an API :) |
| 14:03:25 | <maerwald> | (lolo) |
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| 14:05:20 | <tomsmeding> | microsoft attempted to make windows and linux agree on an API |
| 14:05:30 | hackage | purescheme-wai-routing-core 0.1.1.0 - Simple Routing functions for Wai Applications https://hackage.haskell.org/package/purescheme-wai-routing-core-0.1.1.0 (frincon) |
| 14:05:37 | <hekkaidekapus> | You mean, update the Cabal spec? |
| 14:05:44 | <tomsmeding> | the thought may not be as ridiculous as it sounds |
| 14:05:48 | <xenon-> | hi. I'm trying to use aeson to reason third party json file, and I'm getting key not present error, because fields start with upper case letter, unlike fields in haskell object. how can I get around this? |
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| 14:06:15 | <xenon-> | s/reason/read |
| 14:06:17 | <dminuoso> | xenon-: write out the instance manually |
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| 14:06:43 | <xenon-> | that is the only way? |
| 14:07:18 | <dminuoso> | Its possible you can tweak the generic options |
| 14:08:06 | <xenon-> | did some googling while asking the question.. this seems promising. http://hackage.haskell.org/package/aeson-casing-0.2.0.0/docs/Data-Aeson-Casing.html |
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| 14:08:16 | <dminuoso> | xenon-: Refer to https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aeson-1.5.4.1/docs/Data-Aeson.html#t:Options |
| 14:08:42 | <dminuoso> | xenon-: honestly, Id just write out the instance by hand |
| 14:09:02 | <dminuoso> | It's doesnt take much effort, and it makes this contract explicit |
| 14:09:25 | <dminuoso> | But, you can override fieldLabelModifier for the generic json parser options |
| 14:09:27 | <dminuoso> | To do what you want |
| 14:10:12 | <dminuoso> | There's a few reasons to do manual implementatoins |
| 14:10:35 | <dminuoso> | 1) Multiple versions. You cant do this trivially with the typeclass+generics approach, without a lot of inelegance |
| 14:11:10 | <dminuoso> | 2) It lets you decouple your haskell code from external representation (and codify this interface with Haskell, rather than implicit generics) |
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| 14:13:02 | <xenon-> | I'm using older aeson version, there's no Data.Aeson.Casing |
| 14:13:03 | <dminuoso> | The latter can be done if you have separate data types for just the external representation, but this works better if you're the one defining the JSON API, rather than trying to conform to some outside format |
| 14:13:15 | <xenon-> | I'll try that option, if that fails I'll just write manual instance |
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| 14:14:14 | <tomsmeding> | xenon-: side note: "there's no Data.Aeson.Casing" might be because that's in a different package (aeson-casing)? |
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| 14:15:12 | <lortabac> | dminuoso: IMHO both versioning and external representation should be dealt with by defining multiple data types |
| 14:15:32 | <xenon-> | tomsmeding, oh |
| 14:16:03 | <lortabac> | encoding any logic into the deserialization part means doing Python in Haskell (with worse syntax) |
| 14:16:04 | <tomsmeding> | though please heed dminuoso's recommendations :p |
| 14:17:01 | hackage | purescheme-wai-routing-core 0.1.2.0 - Simple Routing functions for Wai Applications https://hackage.haskell.org/package/purescheme-wai-routing-core-0.1.2.0 (frincon) |
| 14:17:14 | <dminuoso> | lortabac: Im willing to argue that this is incorrect. In case of python style code, you usually implicitly decode into Python structures, but it's still not really de-serialized. |
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| 14:17:38 | <dminuoso> | Either you have an additional layer where you transform your "jsonDeserializedIntoDict" data into some domain specific objects with error handling |
| 14:17:57 | <dminuoso> | Or, which is more common and much worse, you just use this the basis of control flow |
| 14:18:02 | <dminuoso> | Whatever the user specifies |
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| 14:18:34 | <dminuoso> | We're better off in Haskell because we can actually meaningfully parse the data into domain specific data types and have error handling. In Python you get "whatever" |
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| 14:19:26 | <lortabac> | dminuoso: what I meant is: it is better to keep the JSON instances straightforward and define one data type for each version (or each layer of the application) |
| 14:19:39 | <dminuoso> | JSON is not a protocol format, the act of "destructuring the payload" needs to be done either way. With Python you just do it on dicts/lists/numbers/whatever, in Haskell you do it on `data Value = ...` |
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| 14:19:41 | <lortabac> | rather than encoding versioning logic into the JSON instances |
| 14:19:43 | <dminuoso> | Ah |
| 14:19:48 | <cohn> | speaking of DSLs, does Haskell have a good tokenizer library? |
| 14:19:57 | <dminuoso> | cohn: attoparsec/megaparsec? |
| 14:20:37 | <dminuoso> | Do you need it streaming? |
| 14:20:43 | <xenon-> | tomsmeding, thanks, that worked! I'll prolong learning how to write custom instance when I need it |
| 14:21:30 | hackage | purescheme-wai-routing-core 0.1.3.0 - Simple Routing functions for Wai Applications https://hackage.haskell.org/package/purescheme-wai-routing-core-0.1.3.0 (frincon) |
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| 14:22:54 | <lortabac> | dminuoso: I prefer implementing 'UserV1 -> UserV2' or 'DBUser -> APIUser' rather than 'Value -> Value' |
| 14:23:17 | <dminuoso> | lortabac: Not quite sure what you mean by that |
| 14:23:26 | <cohn> | dminuoso: nah, just curious |
| 14:24:03 | <dminuoso> | cohn: also, there's alex if you want something like flex |
| 14:24:44 | <cohn> | oh nice, thanks dminuoso! |
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| 14:30:21 | <lortabac> | dminuoso: you gave two reasons not to use aeson's generic helpers, I'm saying it doesn't matter because deserialization is not the best place to achieve versioning or decoupling |
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| 14:31:26 | <dminuoso> | lortabac: It depends on the details, I guess. If you have just represntation format changes, then this is better done in code than extra data types. |
| 14:33:32 | <lortabac> | I don't know, generic aeson instances work in 95% of cases for me, if a field name changes I generally change it in the data type |
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| 14:36:35 | <tanksgiving> | hi |
| 14:36:58 | <dminuoso> | Amusing nickname. :> |
| 14:37:06 | <dminuoso> | Hi. |
| 14:37:20 | <tanksgiving> | how you mean? |
| 14:37:27 | <dminuoso> | I find your nickname amusing. |
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| 14:38:06 | <tanksgiving> | can you explain? |
| 14:38:23 | <dminuoso> | Explain amusement? |
| 14:38:30 | hackage | aeson-commit 1.3 - Parse Aeson data with commitment https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aeson-commit-1.3 (jonascarpay) |
| 14:38:30 | <tanksgiving> | yes |
| 14:38:49 | <dminuoso> | amusement /əˈmjuːzm(ə)nt/ |
| 14:38:51 | <dminuoso> | 1. the state or experience of finding something funny. |
| 14:38:59 | <bahamas> | is there any haskell library that models stochastic processes? I'm asking, because I'm hoping I will understand them better if I see them expressed as Haskell code rather than the mathematical notation |
| 14:39:47 | <dminuoso> | bahamas: There is https://hackage.haskell.org/package/stochastic |
| 14:40:06 | <dminuoso> | Also https://hackage.haskell.org/package/probability |
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| 14:40:30 | hackage | js-chart 2.9.4.1 - Obtain minified chart.js code https://hackage.haskell.org/package/js-chart-2.9.4.1 (jonascarpay) |
| 14:40:35 | <dminuoso> | You might also find this of interest https://hackage.haskell.org/package/monad-bayes |
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| 14:41:29 | <bahamas> | thanks. I knew about probability, but not stochastic |
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| 14:42:06 | <bahamas> | I think it might help me if I try to encode the concepts as Haskell myself |
| 14:42:30 | hackage | elynx-markov 0.5.0 - Simulate molecular sequences along trees https://hackage.haskell.org/package/elynx-markov-0.5.0 (dschrempf) |
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| 14:43:30 | hackage | elynx 0.5.0, tlynx 0.5.0, slynx 0.5.0, elynx-tree 0.5.0, elynx-tools 0.5.0, elynx-seq 0.5.0, elynx-nexus 0.5.0 (dschrempf) |
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| 14:47:45 | <tanksgiving> | hi guys |
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| 14:59:30 | hackage | mcmc 0.3.0 - Sample from a posterior using Markov chain Monte Carlo https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mcmc-0.3.0 (dschrempf) |
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| 15:29:50 | <maerwald> | https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0096055101000066 hmmm... I'm a poor student. Is there an open draft or a blog post explaining this? |
| 15:30:03 | <maerwald> | (lenient evaluation) |
| 15:30:05 | <merijn> | *cough* scihub |
| 15:30:18 | <merijn> | Also, did you try google scholar yet? |
| 15:30:38 | <merijn> | Google Scholar is usually pretty good at turning up PDFs strewn about the web |
| 15:30:49 | <maerwald> | well, I'm asking quite general... doesn't have to be this paper |
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| 15:31:56 | <merijn> | Both recommendations still apply ;) |
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| 15:32:52 | <merijn> | Also, even as non-poor non-student people shouldn't be paying for papers or I will haunt you for the rest of your life >.> |
| 15:33:22 | <merijn> | maerwald: Google immediately turns up a copy on psu.edu: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22Lenient+evaluation+is+neither+strict+nor+lazy%22 |
| 15:34:10 | <maerwald> | oh |
| 15:34:53 | <merijn> | I have about 80% success rate turning up free PDFs by just copy pasting titles into Google Scholar |
| 15:35:23 | <mniip> | oh, you have to click "all 8 versions" |
| 15:35:24 | <maerwald> | I just completely missed the hanging pdf link |
| 15:35:45 | <mniip> | I was able to download a pdf off sciencedirect though |
| 15:35:55 | <mniip> | may or may not be because I'm on campus |
| 15:36:12 | <merijn> | mniip: Sometimes, depends on which version it lists first |
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| 15:48:30 | hackage | r-glpk-phonetic-languages-ukrainian-durations 0.2.1.0 - Can be used to calculate the durations of the approximations of the Ukrainian phonemes. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/r-glpk-phonetic-languages-ukrainian-durations-0.2.1.0 (OleksandrZhabenko) |
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| 16:21:09 | <Ferdirand> | base has Data.Complex, but does it has something for perplex numbers (aka split complex/hyperbolic numbers) ? |
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| 16:22:29 | <merijn> | I've never heard of those, so probably not? |
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| 16:42:17 | <tomsmeding> | wouldn't be hard to build, wouldn't it? |
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| 17:18:45 | <dminuoso> | maerwald: "poor student" meaning what exactly? |
| 17:18:57 | <dminuoso> | You have lost your bookmark to sci*cough*hub? |
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| 17:52:56 | <maerwald> | I was just trying to trigger merijn into explaining it to me :p |
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| 18:58:12 | ← | Redrum020 parts (~crack020@public-nat-08.vpngate.v4.open.ad.jp) () |
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| 19:04:31 | hackage | polysemy-extra 0.1.1.0 - Extra Input and Output functions for polysemy.. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/polysemy-extra-0.1.1.0 (locallycompact) |
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| 19:36:55 | <samlamamma> | I currently install ghc through my distro's package manager. Can you instead use Cabal or Stackage to upgrade ghc? My ghc gets updated quite slowly |
| 19:37:15 | <maerwald> | samlamamma: https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/ |
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| 19:37:49 | <geekosaur> | not presently, but there's ghcup. or stack can install ghc for its own use, and you can get to it indirectly via stack exec |
| 19:39:11 | <geekosaur> | ghcup is probably the best way currently |
| 19:39:32 | <maerwald> | merijn: I'm not too convinced of lenient. So all it gives over strict is recursively defined data structures. Then again, I see papers solving that problem in strict languages anyway |
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| 19:41:37 | <samlamamma> | Thank you! Currently installing :-) |
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| 19:42:09 | <maerwald> | and the paper makes a few good argument pro lazy, in fact |
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| 19:44:25 | <maerwald> | evaluating arguments in parallel sounds like a cool thing though |
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| 19:46:27 | <dminuoso> | maerwald: In principle, that's non-strictness though. |
| 19:46:32 | <maerwald> | yes |
| 19:46:36 | <maerwald> | lenient is non-strict |
| 19:46:44 | <dminuoso> | Right, Im just saying GHC could do this as well |
| 19:46:50 | <maerwald> | potentially |
| 19:47:05 | <dminuoso> | The language has considerations for that, in fact. |
| 19:47:11 | <maerwald> | But the error behavior would be more like a strict language that a lazy one |
| 19:47:19 | <maerwald> | *than |
| 19:47:30 | <dminuoso> | The way seq is defined for instance, does not guarantee that in x `seq` y x is forced *before* y. |
| 19:47:44 | <dminuoso> | The report is very careful in that regard, as is the ghc/base implementation |
| 19:48:08 | <dminuoso> | (That was done to allow for implementations speculatively forcing x) |
| 19:48:14 | <dminuoso> | perhaps in parallel |
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| 19:52:02 | <samlamamma> | Quick question: ghcup asked me if I wanted haskell language server, I said YES. Then I updated my ghc using ghcup, do I then also need to update HLS through ghcup? |
| 19:52:46 | <maerwald> | samlamamma: it manages HLS too, yes |
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| 19:53:16 | <maerwald> | I don't think hls currently has a self-updater either |
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| 19:57:42 | <samlamamma> | Yeah, I was just confused because it said the latest version was installed of HLS. Turns out it downloaded all of the binaries of HLS for the varying GHCs that it supports |
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| 19:57:56 | <maerwald> | yes |
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| 19:59:02 | <samlamamma> | OK, gonna restart Emacs and try out HLS :-)! |
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| 19:59:58 | <maerwald> | this is why my IRC client doesn't run inside my editor :p |
| 20:00:38 | <Uniaika> | :'') |
| 20:01:42 | <geekosaur> | mine runs in my browser, which is almost as bad >.> |
| 20:01:52 | <dminuoso> | geekosaur: those three can be the same! |
| 20:02:30 | <geekosaur> | yes, which makes even less sense |
| 20:02:32 | <maerwald> | Yeah, I also prefer the github online editor |
| 20:02:43 | <maerwald> | with a fake gpg sig |
| 20:02:51 | <geekosaur> | admittedly most things in the browser only require reloading a page, not the whole browser |
| 20:03:00 | <geekosaur> | except once a week… |
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| 20:05:58 | <monochrom> | every software evolves until it contains an email client and an operating system |
| 20:06:33 | <maerwald> | systemd already has an email client right? |
| 20:06:44 | <davean> | Clearly the correct approach is for your editor and web client to run inside your IRC client. |
| 20:06:49 | <monochrom> | wait what? hahaha |
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| 20:07:39 | <dminuoso> | Microsoft went the other way, start with the browser and then build the editor inside it. |
| 20:07:54 | <maerwald> | davean: just need a tmux wrapper in weechat and you're good to go |
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| 20:08:34 | <monochrom> | davean: That would be http://hackage.haskell.org/package/manatee |
| 20:09:19 | <monochrom> | The author believed that an IDE for Haskell needed: a web browser for the docs, an editor for the code, and an IRC client for #haskell |
| 20:10:03 | <davean> | They were mostly right. They just missunderstood IRC |
| 20:10:14 | <davean> | its for #ghc to report the compiler bugs |
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| 20:10:23 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 20:10:39 | <dminuoso> | Love how manatee doesnt even come with haddocks on hackage. |
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| 20:11:00 | hackage | prolude 0.0.0.7 - ITProTV's custom prelude https://hackage.haskell.org/package/prolude-0.0.0.7 (saramuse) |
| 20:11:10 | <monochrom> | perhaps because gtk build difficulty on hackage |
| 20:11:25 | <monochrom> | Plus it's also pretty old code. |
| 20:11:44 | <monochrom> | As usual, the author joined a bank and never showed up here again. |
| 20:12:35 | <davean> | Haskell does drive people to banking |
| 20:12:50 | <dminuoso> | We drive networking with haskell |
| 20:14:23 | <monochrom> | #haskell is like little colony depicting in the movie The Island |
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| 20:15:00 | <monochrom> | Every once in a while, we welcome a beginner with "yay you're finally rescued from the poisonous imperative world outside! It's safe here." |
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| 20:15:48 | <Rembane> | And then they get snatched up by a bank. |
| 20:15:49 | <monochrom> | Also every once in a while, a lottery sends one of us to "the FP banking paradise" and whoever are sent will be never seen here again. |
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| 20:25:30 | hackage | ghc-check 0.5.0.2 - detect mismatches between compile-time and run-time versions of the ghc api https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-check-0.5.0.2 (PepeIborra) |
| 20:27:45 | <maerwald> | xD |
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| 20:28:53 | <maerwald> | haskell is just a way to get better salary now without 20 years of Java industry experience... true laziness? |
| 20:29:15 | <pjb> | Yes. |
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| 20:29:51 | <Uniaika> | wonderful |
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| 20:42:15 | <merijn> | monochrom: Are you sure that's not a secret sacrifice to the old ones? |
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| 20:55:00 | hackage | phonetic-languages-examples 0.3.2.0 - A generalization of the uniqueness-periods-vector-examples functionality. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/phonetic-languages-examples-0.3.2.0 (OleksandrZhabenko) |
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| 21:04:06 | <Feuermagier_> | How hard is Djikstra in Haskell? - I've implemented it in other languages successfully, but am new to Haskell would like to try an implementation. |
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| 21:05:32 | <merijn> | *Dijkstra |
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| 21:05:58 | <merijn> | It depends on what data structure you wanna implement it on? |
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| 21:09:06 | <Feuermagier_> | merijn, I know barely anything about datastructures in haskell. I'll probably have to learn about them in the process. |
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| 21:09:24 | <merijn> | What did you use in other languages? |
| 21:09:39 | <koz_> | Feuermagier_: I think what merijn wants to know is 'how did you want to represent your graph?'. |
| 21:09:45 | <koz_> | Like, adjacency matrix, adjacency list, some other thing? |
| 21:09:48 | <merijn> | That, yeah |
| 21:09:58 | <koz_> | (algebraic graph if you wanna flex) |
| 21:10:01 | <merijn> | koz_: Clearly CSR is superior :p |
| 21:10:05 | <koz_> | CSR? |
| 21:10:31 | <merijn> | Compressed Spare Row (usually a representation for sparse matrices, but then again, what is a graph if not a sparse matrix) |
| 21:10:43 | <koz_> | Ah, so 'not terrible adjaceny matrix'. |
| 21:11:02 | <koz_> | s/adjaceny/adjacency/ |
| 21:11:15 | <koz_> | (that word's spelling annoys me) |
| 21:11:22 | <koz_> | (it should be 'ajasensy') |
| 21:12:25 | <Feuermagier_> | I'll probably go for an adjecenjy matrix or list |
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| 21:19:46 | <justsomeguy> | Is there something special about singly-linked lists that makes it easier to use without direct mutation than arrays or doubly-linked lists? There seems to be a special emphasis on the list type, and I'm trying to figure out why. |
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| 21:20:01 | <koz_> | justsomeguy: Mostly legacy. Lists were all the rage back then. |
| 21:20:13 | <merijn> | That's an oversimplification |
| 21:20:24 | <merijn> | Linked lists are basically "loops as data structure" |
| 21:20:34 | <merijn> | Loops are common, therefore lists are common |
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| 21:21:18 | <koz_> | Someone said (I think it was solonarv?) that lists are a great control structure, but a terrible data structure. |
| 21:21:21 | <merijn> | justsomeguy: doubly-linked lists are hard/annoying to build if you don't have mutation, because well, if how are you going to set all "next" *and* "previous" links simultaneously |
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| 21:22:07 | <dolio> | They're not a terrible data structure. |
| 21:22:33 | <koz_> | dolio: My quote may be lacking context. |
| 21:22:38 | <koz_> | (and in fact, likely is) |
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| 21:26:57 | <dolio> | Well, that is the essence of the problem. It makes no sense to call something a "terrible data structure" without context. And lists are fine for a lot of common uses. |
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| 21:28:15 | <dolio> | You don't always need to access both sides or index into or find something in a collection of things, or any number of other operations that are suboptimal on lists. |
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| 21:30:04 | <justsomeguy> | I guess it may be easier to share parts of a list that are unchanged, since you don't have to keep them contiguously in memory, and you can just change the linkages between cons cells. |
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| 21:30:43 | <crdrost> | for that matter there is a duality between data structures and the control structures that consume them, it doesn't make sense to say that the control structure is great but the data structure is terrible, they're the same thing |
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| 21:40:10 | <dolio> | Sharing is the definite difference between singly linked lists and the other two examples. Tails of immutable singly linked lists can be shared. Nothing in the structure of an immutable array or doubly linked list can be shared. |
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| 21:40:31 | hackage | phonetic-languages-examples 0.3.3.0 - A generalization of the uniqueness-periods-vector-examples functionality. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/phonetic-languages-examples-0.3.3.0 (OleksandrZhabenko) |
| 21:41:30 | hackage | uniqueness-periods-vector-examples 0.14.3.0 - Usage examples for the uniqueness-periods-vector series of packages https://hackage.haskell.org/package/uniqueness-periods-vector-examples-0.14.3.0 (OleksandrZhabenko) |
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| 21:43:30 | hackage | semibounded-lattices 0.1.1.0 - A Haskell implementation of semibounded lattices https://hackage.haskell.org/package/semibounded-lattices-0.1.1.0 (xuhao) |
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| 21:47:36 | <justsomeguy> | This is reminding me of how commits in git can be changed while still being mostly immutable. |
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| 21:48:45 | <merijn> | dolio: Sure it can, you just can never mutate it afterwards :p |
| 21:49:21 | <merijn> | And the use for a datastructure where you can never insert/delete something is rather small |
| 21:49:52 | <justsomeguy> | Do the "links" in a singly-linked list point backwards (or forwards)? |
| 21:49:56 | <dolio> | No sharing can happen with only one person. |
| 21:50:18 | <merijn> | justsomeguy: That's a matter of perspective :p |
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| 21:53:05 | <dolio> | 'I shared the cake with myself by eating the whole thing.' :P |
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| 21:55:55 | <pjb> | Well, if you sell the cake to yourself, you can also have it, but not entirely, since then you'll have to pay to the state value added tax, and income tax. |
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| 21:58:28 | <monochrom> | For Dijkstra's algorithm, the input graph format being as a bunch of adjacency lists is fairly uncontroversial, and it really doesn't matter what you use for "list" because you're just traversing it in one direction. |
| 21:59:16 | <monochrom> | The hard part though is what you use to track "has this vertex been visited?" and to track the priority queue. |
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| 22:00:01 | <monochrom> | To be fair, the priority queue part is annoying even in imperative languages with mutable data structures. |
| 22:01:05 | <monochrom> | Because you have to support the operation "look up by vertex (emphatically not by priority) and bump down it's priority". |
| 22:01:31 | <koz_> | monochrom: Yeah, changeKey is something that I remember my own data structures course being incredibly glib about. |
| 22:01:33 | <monochrom> | Most textbooks, especially the imperative ones, simply gross over it. |
| 22:01:45 | <koz_> | monochrom: 'Gross' over it is 100% the right term. |
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| 22:02:42 | <monochrom> | Well, they don't gross over "if you already have the address of the node, how to bump down its priority". But they simply refuse to mention "how to find that address in the first place". It's bordering on scamming. |
| 22:03:14 | <monochrom> | IMO only Ralf Hinze's "priority search queue" does justice to this topic. |
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| 22:06:08 | <koz_> | monochrom: It goes beyond 'bordering'. I'd argue it's more 'crossing the border then setting up camp on the other side'. |
| 22:06:28 | <koz_> | The argument I saw amounts to basically yelling 'POINTERS LOL' and that's about it. |
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| 22:07:56 | <justsomeguy> | To insert an element into the middle of a list, don't you still have to do mutation (of previous cons cells link to the next element)? It seems to me that there is still some mutation, even though you can share more of the structure. |
| 22:08:06 | <koz_> | justsomeguy: You copy everything preceding it. |
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| 22:08:15 | <koz_> | Then tail-share the rest. |
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| 22:09:30 | <justsomeguy> | This is kind of fun :) |
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| 22:16:27 | <lucente> | hey, I have completed tic-tac-toe, expect for some minor errors in loop. Could you give me a hand? Particular problem is explained right on the end of comment inside the code. Code: https://ideone.com/XuLTsy |
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| 22:22:37 | <hekkaidekapus> | lucente: Add these 3 lines at the top of your file: |
| 22:22:39 | <hekkaidekapus> | module Main ( main ) where |
| 22:22:48 | <hekkaidekapus> | main :: IO () |
| 22:22:56 | <hekkaidekapus> | main = pure () |
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| 22:25:13 | <merijn> | lucente: 10 dollars says the missing 8,8 is due to lack of final newline and line-buffered stdout :p |
| 22:25:20 | <merijn> | Try using putStrLn instead of putStr |
| 22:25:21 | <lucente> | hekkaidekapus, done. I write haskell in emacs and load it to ghci.. so I don't get my hands on working with main |
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| 22:27:05 | <hekkaidekapus> | lucente: Those lines are fixing this error: `The IO action ‘main’ is not defined in module ‘Main’` from your pasted code. |
| 22:28:14 | <merijn> | lucente: As for some general other tips: "ticktack" would probably look nicer if you ditch the if/then/else and use guards, the parentheses on line 59 are all redundant (although, even better would again be to get rid of the if/then/else) |
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| 22:29:05 | <hekkaidekapus> | And `concat . map = concatMap`. |
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| 22:29:21 | <merijn> | I'm guessing the inverted output is due to a logical error in the order you traverse the list, but I'm too lazy to be bothered to think it through |
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| 22:33:21 | <lucente> | merijn, putStrLn gave me the same result |
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| 22:34:26 | <lucente> | hekkaidekapus, my def of concat works alright |
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| 22:35:14 | <hekkaidekapus> | Yeah, it is just a superficial observation along the lines of redundant brackets. |
| 22:35:45 | <lucente> | thanks for the input guys, however the problem with reversed tic tacs and my under competence the lacks of borders still remains |
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| 22:37:30 | hackage | co-log-json 0.0.1.0 - Structured messages support in co-log ecosystem. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/co-log-json-0.0.1.0 (AlexanderVershilov) |
| 22:37:59 | <lucente> | I have added the main dec as you pointed out however it is not needed when compiled in ghci. The code doesn't look as something the authors had been dreaming of while they were creating it, but at the moment I just want to make it functional. |
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| 22:38:54 | <hekkaidekapus> | Oh, someone else wrote the code? |
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| 22:39:33 | <hekkaidekapus> | By the way, do: `main = pp (ticktack (8, 8) [(1, 1), (8, 8), (2, 2), (3, 3), (4, 2), (3, 2)])` |
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| 22:40:20 | <hekkaidekapus> | to make main useful a bit. But if it is not your code, let’s stop here. Rather, ask what you don’t understand. |
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| 22:42:25 | <hekkaidekapus> | Here is a question for you for instance: why did adding main::IO() fix the compilation error? |
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| 22:43:03 | <koz_> | Another question: is this homework? |
| 22:43:09 | <hekkaidekapus> | heh |
| 22:43:21 | <lucente> | hekkaidekapus, I meant authors of Haskell |
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| 22:44:59 | <lucente> | hekkaidekapus, The very output from the input you posted above is shown in comment section in the code. Because for some reason the compiler won't process the input I give to it. The output shown in comment is equal to what my terminal pops out |
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| 22:45:38 | <hekkaidekapus> | lucente: You have 2 questions so far. We are waiting… |
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| 22:46:27 | <lucente> | It fixed the comp error, because the web compiler required it. Most likely because it doesn't use ghci, so it needs to be declared at the start |
| 22:46:28 | <koz_> | hekkaidekapus: Async (Answer, Maybe Answer) :P |
| 22:46:55 | <lucente> | Not gonna lie, it's a homework. |
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| 22:48:06 | <lucente> | Have to point out I am more into structuraly interpreted languages such as C. Haskell really makes my life a hell for anything but math calculations. |
| 22:49:29 | <hekkaidekapus> | Let’s stick to Haskell. So, what is the web compiler? Is that how you are supposed to turn in the assignment? |
| 22:50:03 | <davve> | i learned erlang in my functional programming class |
| 22:50:06 | <davve> | good times |
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| 22:51:14 | <davve> | haskell is something i stumbled onto by xmonad, which gave me an appreciation for it and i totally agree, it's easy to do math, but general programming is possible too: you came to the right place here! :) |
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| 22:52:02 | <hekkaidekapus> | lucente: ghci is an interpreter (aka an interactor). It ‘evaluates’ stuff as you type in. The error you pasted comes from compilation (aka calling ghc one way or another). |
| 22:52:17 | <lucente> | hekkaidekapus, nah, don't play games. Although thanks guys for trying to help |
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| 22:53:02 | <lucente> | not like I have been around computers since age 10 |
| 22:53:38 | <hekkaidekapus> | Well then, I’m done. |
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| 22:54:13 | <lucente> | davve, I have to say that Haskell looks the most elegant from everything I have ever had my hands on |
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| 22:58:59 | <lucente> | I wish I could somehow teach myself to manage my time smarter and organize the week so I don't end up working on assignments a day before deadline or so. I have already started to use org-mode, but most of the time I lack to will to do things, mainly because I can't find a reason why to do them. Like if everything was meaningless and my life was leading to wrong direction. |
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| 23:01:28 | <monochrom> | I have that procrastination problem too. |
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| 23:02:01 | <monochrom> | Fortunately, Haskell is nicer to work with, and gives me more incentive than average to not procrastinate work related to it. |
| 23:03:10 | <Axman6> | lucente: hey, pro tip, it's _very_ likely your lecturer is in this channel. Maybe a_ stop being a dick and b) be greatful when people give up their time to help you when they have absolutely nothing to gain by doing it, mmkay? |
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| 23:06:41 | <lucente> | As long as I am concerned I was acting nothing but politely. If someone feels otherwise I am sorry for their misinterpretation of my words. Again I have thanked to everyone who tried to help. |
| 23:06:49 | <hekkaidekapus> | Axman6: Aye. The worst part is that I just learnt that <https://ideone.com> is really an online compiler! |
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| 23:08:50 | <Axman6> | "nah, don't play games" to someone who is actively helping you, "not like I have been around computers since age 10", lack of humility that you might not actually know everything; we were all using computers when we were 10. none of that is polite |
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| 23:10:38 | <Axman6> | hekkaidekapus: https://godbolt.org is where the real fun is - compare the results from different languages, disassemble them, look at instruction timings etc, it's amazing |
| 23:10:39 | <lucente> | the hekkaidekapus asked me if I know what compiler is. Firstly would be nice to find out who the initiator was |
| 23:11:30 | <koz_> | Axman6: Godbolt is really very cool. |
| 23:11:49 | <merijn> | koz_: Indeed |
| 23:11:54 | <hekkaidekapus> | Axman6: Yeah, godbolt, that I am aware of. Nice tech! |
| 23:12:03 | <merijn> | godbolt is a superpower ;) |
| 23:12:10 | <koz_> | It helped me discover I was inadvertently tripping UB one time. |
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| 23:12:20 | <koz_> | (because honestly, C loves UB) |
| 23:12:31 | <Axman6> | if hekkaidekapus was asking that then I would assume that was because you appeared not to know. All I saw was asking what "web compiler" you were using, which as far as I can see you didn't answer |
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| 23:13:30 | hackage | composition-prelude 3.0.0.2 - Higher-order function combinators https://hackage.haskell.org/package/composition-prelude-3.0.0.2 (vmchale) |
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| 23:15:28 | <arahael> | whats haskell like on apple silicon now? all good or some issues still being resolved? |
| 23:16:36 | <hekkaidekapus> | arahael: Page angerman because he is the most invested in that (beside Ben), it seems. |
| 23:17:23 | <lucente> | Axman6, again you are accusing me of actions you have poor knowledge of. The only web compiler was the one I posted in the message. Not like any of this would matter anymore. For the next time just try not to get so harsh on someone in my pants, mkay? |
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| 23:22:07 | <arahael> | hekkaidekapus: thanks! |
| 23:22:51 | <arahael> | angerman, ben_m: whats haskell like on apple silicon these days, now that M1 has been released for some apple systems? |
| 23:24:07 | <hekkaidekapus> | bgamari ^^^ |
| 23:24:34 | <bgamari> | arahael, we are working on it |
| 23:24:45 | <bgamari> | arahael, I hope that 9.0 will ship with support via the LLVM backend |
| 23:25:15 | <Axman6> | nice - are there any plans for a native AArch64 backend for GHC? |
| 23:25:16 | <bgamari> | and angerman is currently working on a native code generator backend which should improve compilation time significantly |
| 23:25:24 | <Axman6> | <3 |
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| 23:26:33 | <hekkaidekapus> | Axman6: <https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/merge_requests/3641> |
| 23:26:33 | <arahael> | bgamari: ah, in the mean time, whats it like developing for the "legacy" intel backend while on apple silicon? |
| 23:26:52 | <bgamari> | moreover, I just pushed a bunch of fixes which should improve stability in general on ARM and other weak memory models |
| 23:26:53 | <Axman6> | LLVM doesn't have any form oif ASM -> ASM optimisation utility right? |
| 23:27:10 | <arahael> | nice, bgamari! |
| 23:27:14 | <bgamari> | s/other weak memory models/other architectures with weak memory models/ |
| 23:27:23 | <bgamari> | that will certainly ship with 9.0 |
| 23:27:32 | bgamari | needs to start backporting |
| 23:27:35 | <bgamari> | Axman6, it doesn't |
| 23:27:47 | <bgamari> | arahael, this is a question for angerman |
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| 23:28:08 | <bgamari> | arahael, I did a bit of early bring-up work but frankly I try to avoid apple like the plague |
| 23:28:30 | <bgamari> | angerman both has a better idea of what he's doing and enjoys it more |
| 23:28:39 | <arahael> | bgamari: yeah, my day job is ios using swift, so it pays the bills and keeps me invested. |
| 23:28:48 | <bgamari> | :) |
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| 23:29:06 | <bgamari> | I was able to get an amd64 GHC running on the DTK pretty easly |
| 23:29:08 | <bgamari> | easily* |
| 23:29:20 | <bgamari> | building GHC wasn't so easy though due to dependencies |
| 23:29:28 | <bgamari> | IIRC gmp was problematic |
| 23:29:34 | <Axman6> | DTK? |
| 23:29:36 | <arahael> | awesome, i'll be keen to hear from him, i presume his nick's alerted him already! |
| 23:29:55 | <Axman6> | he's gonna be... so angry |
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| 23:30:16 | <arahael> | Axman6: apple dev kit, it is/was under nda though. |
| 23:30:18 | <koz_> | Angeryman. |
| 23:30:29 | <bgamari> | Axman6, the test hardware that we had access to |
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| 23:34:15 | <angerman> | First of all BigSur on arm64 comes with Rosetta, our x86_64 compiler still work. |
| 23:34:31 | <arahael> | angerman: Yeah, including using it for development? |
| 23:34:31 | hackage | data-validation 0.1.2.0 - A library for creating type safe validations. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/data-validation-0.1.2.0 (sambolias) |
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| 23:35:15 | <angerman> | arahael: well I can use it to build a x86_64 -> arm64 cross compiler. And then a native one. |
| 23:35:30 | <arahael> | Ah, very very nice. |
| 23:35:38 | <angerman> | arahael: so I’d say yes. It’s not ideal, but I’m pretty certain it’s workable. |
| 23:36:02 | <angerman> | Over time we’ll have native arm64 compilers for arm64 |
| 23:36:40 | <angerman> | arahael: here’s a native 9.1 build: https://dl.dropbox.com/s/jskw2pjpkhquj4g/ghc-9.1.0.20201110-aarch64-apple-darwin.tar.xz |
| 23:36:48 | <arahael> | Awesome, I'm going to get the system then, though not sure when - could still be early next year. |
| 23:38:13 | <angerman> | I’ll try to get an M1 Mini as soon as I can, but we’ll it’s currently unavailable here ;-) |
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| 23:39:02 | <arahael> | Mine will be an MBP, most likely. Already have a fallback linux headless desktop I don't intend on replacing. |
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| 23:39:49 | <arahael> | But for serious building stuff, yeah, the mini sounds absolutely appropriate. |
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| 23:42:25 | <arahael> | angerman: Big Sur also works well as well, as far as the haskell ecosystem is concerned? |
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| 23:43:05 | <arahael> | (Ie, ignoring brew, and all that, which I understand are still adapting) |
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| 23:46:44 | <angerman> | A lot of infrastructure is still missing. And eventually you’ll have to deal with x86_64 it arm64 only slices :-/ |
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| 23:47:25 | <arahael> | Could you elaborate? |
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All times are in UTC on 2020-11-10.