Logs on 2020-11-15 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 01:24:00 | hackage | stylist 2.3.0.0 - Apply CSS styles to a document tree. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/stylist-2.3.0.0 (alcinnz) |
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| 01:57:14 | <dsal> | Feuermagier: η-reduction works just like your basic algebra classes: `f a = g something a` -- you can remove the a from the right side of both. `f = g something` (there are cases where it's not quite that simple, but that's the basic idea) |
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| 02:00:22 | texasmyn_ | is now known as texasmynsted |
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| 03:39:30 | <ensyde> | . |
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| 03:57:00 | lagothrix | is now known as Guest69519 |
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| 04:00:31 | hackage | oidc-client 0.6.0.0 - OpenID Connect 1.0 library for RP https://hackage.haskell.org/package/oidc-client-0.6.0.0 (ShoKuroda) |
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| 04:39:10 | <p0a> | Hello, why does my prgram hang after reading a file? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/SStWMb8v |
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| 04:39:22 | <p0a> | It does what it's supposed to, but it never terminates |
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| 04:45:43 | <p0a> | Ah I think I spotted the bug, it was a precedence issue around unless/>> |
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| 05:01:16 | <dsal> | is `buf == B.empty` meant to do the same thing as `null b`? |
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| 05:07:20 | <jle`> | dsal: (if you mean B.null) |
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| 05:09:31 | <dsal> | Oh, I was thinking of it as being Foldable, but it's improperly kinded. |
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| 05:26:01 | hackage | swiss-ephemeris 1.2.1.0 - Haskell bindings for the Swiss Ephemeris C library https://hackage.haskell.org/package/swiss-ephemeris-1.2.1.0 (lfborjas) |
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| 05:43:29 | <p0a> | dsal: I wanted to write a program that does not load the file in memory so that it works with big files |
| 05:44:04 | <p0a> | Initially I wanted to also take care of exceptions (I'm used to error checking in C) but I realized that it'd only be for the shake of nicer error messages, since there's nothing to recover from/to. |
| 05:44:22 | <p0a> | ...I don't know why I'm telling you this. You didn't ask. :P sorry |
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| 05:44:43 | <dsal> | Heh, makes sense. But have you considered conduit? |
| 05:45:40 | <p0a> | No, but I'll take a look, thanks |
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| 05:49:16 | <dsal> | Oh, conduit will make the thing you're describing quite easy. :) |
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| 06:04:33 | <jophish> | Why doesn't Foldable's null have the type: null :: Foldable t => t a -> Maybe (t Void) |
| 06:07:08 | <MarcelineVQ> | What is that expressing? |
| 06:07:42 | <jophish> | It's a proof that the 't' is empty by filling it with Void |
| 06:09:05 | <glguy> | jophish, that probably wouldn't be very useful, and wouldn't prove anything about whether or not the argument was empty |
| 06:09:11 | <MarcelineVQ> | Ah that makes more sense to me written that way, not sure you gian much though |
| 06:10:24 | <jophish> | glguy: sorry, I'm not sure I understand, how could it return a Void is a non empty 't'? |
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| 06:11:28 | <glguy> | null :: [a] -> Maybe [Void]; null _ = Just [] |
| 06:11:45 | <glguy> | the value that the [Void] is there doesn't prove anything about the argument being empty |
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| 06:12:17 | <glguy> | perhaps that's useful for some particular application, but it wouldn't be worth making Foldable more complicated in general |
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| 06:12:50 | <jophish> | Ah I see, in this case I wasn't envisioning null being a member of the Foldable type class |
| 06:13:21 | <glguy> | If it wasn't you wouldn't be able to implement null |
| 06:13:44 | <jophish> | yeah, I suppose that answers my question then :) |
| 06:14:04 | <jophish> | anyway this will have to do lol: null' t = if null t then Just (unsafeCoerce t) else Nothing |
| 06:14:31 | <jophish> | or if you're willing to add a functor instance, (error "what" <$ t) instead of unsafeCoerce |
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| 06:17:40 | <jophish> | or I suppose you could have it as part of Foldable with some law to go with it |
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| 06:20:35 | <p0a> | "Exceptions can only be caught in the IO monad and, because of laziness, might not be thrown exactly where you expect." |
| 06:20:44 | <p0a> | Do you always catch them at the outmost level of execution? |
| 06:21:11 | p0a | is reading https://wiki.haskell.org/Dealing_with_binary_data |
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| 06:42:47 | <p0a> | "Warning: Multiple files use the same module name:" |
| 06:42:49 | <p0a> | Why does this occur? |
| 06:43:37 | <nitrix> | Might have something to do with multiple files having the same module name, but I could be wrong :P |
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| 06:48:10 | <p0a> | I have a myMain = do input <- BL.readFile testFile ; forever $ putStrLn $ runGet deserializeRow input |
| 06:48:31 | <p0a> | it keeps printing the first row repeatedly. How can I do `runGet' until I run into eof? |
| 06:49:11 | <p0a> | is it untilM_ I should use? |
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| 06:52:14 | <p0a> | this is my entire source code, https://paste.tomsmeding.com/7ji4QuHa |
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| 07:07:07 | <p0a> | there's also https://www.snoyman.com/blog/2016/12/beware-of-readfile to warn me against what I'm trying to do |
| 07:07:17 | <p0a> | I'll give up for now |
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| 07:13:39 | <jophish> | Why do people not hang around... |
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| 07:27:25 | <xsperry> | too late.. but probably more than one file did not specify module name, so multiple ones defaulted to Main |
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| 08:18:35 | <jophish> | Did I imagine it, or did the topic here used to mention that replies on IRC aren't immediate |
| 08:19:13 | <jophish> | #autotools says: Just Ask and be prepared to wait. Someone will get back eventually (Think hours). |
| 08:19:34 | <jophish> | otoh, I'm sure that that's not true |
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| 08:31:29 | <Feuermagier> | if the argument to the function is a list and: function list = zip [0..] list -- how can I make "list" implicit? |
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| 08:38:29 | <jophish> | Feuermagier: do you mean eta-reduction, you can just have: function = zip [0..] |
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| 08:39:46 | <Feuermagier> | thx. yeah, that was it |
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| 09:08:17 | <suzu_> | is there a name for using continuation-passing-style to make something tail recursive? |
| 09:08:21 | <suzu_> | like this: |
| 09:08:25 | <suzu_> | printList :: [String] -> (String -> String) -> String |
| 09:08:27 | <suzu_> | printList [] f = f "[]" |
| 09:08:29 | <suzu_> | printList (x:xs) f = printList xs (\r -> f $ x ++ ", " ++ r ) |
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| 09:09:25 | <suzu_> | this also makes my brain melt if i think about it too much |
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| 09:31:36 | <Feuermagier> | I think I've broken ormolu |
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| 09:32:00 | <Feuermagier> | I have a compiling program, but ormolu refuses to beautify it |
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| 09:34:28 | <Feuermagier> | Error while reformatting by `ormolu`. Error: The GHC parser (in Haddock mode) failed: |
| 09:34:28 | <Feuermagier> | Exercise02.hs:(25,34)-(92,0) |
| 09:34:28 | <Feuermagier> | unterminated quasiquotation at end of input |
| 09:34:45 | <Feuermagier> | line 25: target = twoThirdsAverage [i | (_,i) <- l] |
| 09:34:49 | <Feuermagier> | any ideas? |
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| 09:36:31 | <Feuermagier> | ok. found the error. I left no space between the i and the | at first. The compiler thinks this is valid, ormolu breaks on it. |
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| 10:15:28 | <maerwald> | quasi quotes break a lot of tools |
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| 10:15:59 | <maerwald> | but this isn't even one |
| 10:16:01 | <maerwald> | lol |
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| 10:33:01 | hackage | calamity 0.1.22.0 - A library for writing discord bots in haskell https://hackage.haskell.org/package/calamity-0.1.22.0 (nitros12) |
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| 10:36:07 | <sshine> | what's a good way to express NominalDiffTime with a precision of one second? NominalDiffTime is implemented with 'Micro'. I'd just wrap it, but I was thinking something like Data.Fixed for time resolutions. |
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| 11:44:00 | hackage | constrained-categories 0.4.1.0 - Constrained clones of the category-theory type classes, using ConstraintKinds. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/constrained-categories-0.4.1.0 (leftaroundabout) |
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| 13:16:01 | hackage | hakyll-convert 0.3.0.3 - Convert from other blog engines to Hakyll. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hakyll-convert-0.3.0.3 (AlexanderBatischev) |
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| 13:37:04 | <matthew-> | % :t (id 3, id "x") |
| 13:37:05 | <yahb> | matthew-: forall {a}. Num a => (a, [Char]) |
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| 13:37:35 | <matthew-> | so, this suggests that the typing env is cloned for each part of the tuple |
| 13:38:13 | <geekosaur> | hm, I never shut that flag off, did I |
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| 13:38:38 | <matthew-> | but I've seen some texts suggest that (id 3, id "x") should error, presumably because the instantiation of the type of id is shared |
| 13:39:34 | <matthew-> | this is one problem with a lot of the HM presentations not going into things like lists or tuples |
| 13:41:20 | <__monty__> | matthew-: You do run into trouble with the monomorphism restriction if you expect this behavior in general though. |
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| 13:41:53 | <matthew-> | so I *thought* the monomorphism restriction only comes into play in recursion. Am I mistaken? |
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| 13:42:49 | <matthew-> | because, essentially, the fix instantiates the binder right at the start of the abstraction |
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| 13:43:26 | <matthew-> | well, that's how it can be implemented. I'm less familiar with the details of what is actually sound to do... |
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| 13:44:26 | <bqv> | suzu_: ow |
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| 13:45:12 | <geekosaur> | % :set -fno-print-explicit-foralls |
| 13:45:12 | <yahb> | geekosaur: |
| 13:45:30 | <geekosaur> | (unrelated to your question) |
| 13:46:34 | <merijn> | matthew-: The monomorphism restriction comes into play for "bindings that look like values (aka, no arguments on the left of =) and which are typeclass polymorphic" |
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| 13:47:34 | <merijn> | matthew-: The usual "tuple and id" quandary you see is that '(\f -> (f 3, f "x")) id' doesn't typecheck, but I'm not sure if you were referring to that or something else |
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| 13:51:34 | <matthew-> | merijn: thank you, yes that makes sense (though this is just for plain lc with HM, not haskell). I've just misread then. Ok, so each type inference for each child of a list or tuple ast node should be done in isolation. That's what I've got wrong :) |
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| 13:54:57 | <merijn> | matthew-: So, that specific example requires Rank2 types which is (theoretically) inferrable, but I don't think anyone ever implemented the inference in a real world compiler, because it's atrocious and hard |
| 13:55:16 | <merijn> | And Rank3 and higher types are impossible to infer at all |
| 13:55:57 | <matthew-> | yup, I'm completely avoiding anything above rank-1 |
| 13:56:31 | <merijn> | I assume you've got TaPL already? ;) |
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| 13:58:26 | <matthew-> | indeed. as basically everyone in this channel refers me to. I have it open on my desk in front of me, along with the attpl |
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| 13:59:53 | <FTB> | hello dear community, im about to start the book "learn you haskell for good" |
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| 14:00:55 | <merijn> | matthew-: Just checking ;) |
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| 14:03:11 | <matthew-> | merijn: :) It's funny how many resources you end up working with in order to build a usable language. For example, I have pattern matching, tuples and lists ... and finding a single text which covers them all is tricky |
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| 14:04:36 | <matthew-> | merijn: plus of course a lot of the impls you find are written in Haskell... which obviously isn't a problem or a surprise... but just teasing out some of the details - mistakes happen! |
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| 14:06:31 | <merijn> | matthew-: The GHC wiki should (somewhere) have a list of papers talking about various parts of GHC too, which may or may not be helpful |
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| 14:12:12 | cosmic-sans | is now known as oats |
| 14:13:11 | <matthew-> | merijn: ahh, thanks for the pointer. I'll take a look |
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| 14:37:30 | hackage | quickcheck-instances 0.3.25.1 - Common quickcheck instances https://hackage.haskell.org/package/quickcheck-instances-0.3.25.1 (phadej) |
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| 14:42:53 | <p0a> | hello with ByteString.Lazy, what exactly is the logic of Get? |
| 14:43:41 | <p0a> | Isn't it to read some input and then do something with it? So to repeat this until EOF, what would I have to do? use `until' for example, and check for eof on the handle? |
| 14:46:20 | <nshepperd2> | p0a: You mean Get from the 'binary' package? |
| 14:48:07 | <p0a> | yes nshepperd2, thank you |
| 14:48:17 | <nshepperd2> | Get represents a parser |
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| 14:49:08 | <nshepperd2> | when you call runGet, it parses the bytestring and returns the decoded contents as a haskell object |
| 14:50:02 | <p0a> | alright |
| 14:50:30 | hackage | shake 0.19.2 - Build system library, like Make, but more accurate dependencies. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/shake-0.19.2 (NeilMitchell) |
| 14:50:31 | <nshepperd2> | if your bytestring represents a series of many items, you need to either construct a Get parser that parses a list or items, then call runGet once |
| 14:50:56 | <p0a> | so it's inappropriate to do things in a Get parser? |
| 14:50:58 | <p0a> | such as printing results? |
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| 14:51:19 | <p0a> | How do you efficiently implement unix `cat' in lazy IO with Get? |
| 14:51:57 | <p0a> | I'm sorry for the fragmented sentences, I'm a bit tired. |
| 14:51:57 | <geekosaur> | I wouldn't be using the binary package to do that |
| 14:51:59 | <nshepperd2> | or use runGetIncremental to do one-at-a-time type parsing |
| 14:52:39 | <p0a> | geekosaur: I'm trying to write a utility like `hd' for fun |
| 14:52:40 | <nshepperd2> | doesn't `cat` just read input and write it to the output? you don't need to parse anything for that |
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| 14:53:30 | <p0a> | alright |
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| 14:53:49 | <p0a> | so I just realized I was misusing that Get parser. I see I should've been using runGetIncremental |
| 14:54:13 | <p0a> | but also I shouldn't be using readFile, I should use a handle instead with binary mode on. Using readFile, I don't know how to check for eof |
| 14:54:24 | <p0a> | so... I don't know how to `read' in a loop until eof |
| 14:54:26 | <nshepperd2> | hd, as in a hex dumping utility? |
| 14:54:29 | <p0a> | yeah |
| 14:55:09 | <nshepperd2> | yeah I wouldn't use the binary package for that either, I think |
| 14:55:18 | <nshepperd2> | it's meant more for structured data |
| 14:56:09 | <p0a> | I see |
| 14:56:28 | <p0a> | I did write something with strict IO that works fine |
| 14:56:33 | <p0a> | I was just trying to see what lazy IO is about |
| 14:56:56 | <p0a> | I was also recommended conduit which was the next thing I was going to look at |
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| 14:57:33 | <nshepperd2> | well, with lazy IO, what you get is a big lazy bytestring which contains the entire input |
| 14:58:27 | <nshepperd2> | what you'd generally do is write a pure function which transforms that into a bytestring containing the entire output |
| 14:58:33 | <p0a> | I don't know why I ran into Get, I guess I don't need it at all, you just made me realize. |
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| 14:59:32 | <nshepperd2> | and then just call Data.ByteString.Lazy.putStr to write that to stdout |
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| 15:00:10 | <p0a> | right, thank you |
| 15:00:21 | <p0a> | I was misled by what the purpose of `binary' is |
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| 15:47:31 | <dminuoso> | I have a typeclass for serialization with a method `putAttr :: Attr a => a -> (Word32 -> Put -> Put) -> Put` with the assumption that an implementor will do something like `putAttr (SomeThing s) h = h 16 (putThing s)` |
| 15:48:24 | <dminuoso> | The idea is that this continuation lets us communicate to the caller the length of our attribute, such that they can use it in some manner. |
| 15:48:52 | <dminuoso> | However, that signature doesn't actually enforce it, since you could accidentally just write `putAttr (SomeThing s) _ = putThing s` |
| 15:49:24 | <dminuoso> | Is there a way to rewrite this method to make it less error prone in that sense? |
| 15:49:26 | <ski> | `putAttr :: Attr a => a -> (Word32 -> Put -> o) -> o' ? |
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| 15:49:44 | <dminuoso> | Oh. |
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| 15:50:26 | <dminuoso> | ski: Why didn't I see that, cheers! |
| 15:50:35 | <ski> | oh, it'll work ? |
| 15:50:48 | <dminuoso> | Looks perfectly reasonable I guess? |
| 15:51:08 | <dminuoso> | Let me play with it |
| 15:51:17 | <ski> | it depends on whether you expect `putAttr' to always be in CPS, or else sometimes nqCPS |
| 15:51:38 | <ski> | (and i don't know enough context to be able to tell that) |
| 15:51:40 | <dminuoso> | What is nqCPS? |
| 15:51:50 | <ski> | "not-quite CPS" |
| 15:52:05 | <dminuoso> | So far, I intend to use this in CPS everywhere |
| 15:52:19 | <ski> | like you sometimes "do something after the continuation". e.g. using `finally' or `bracket' |
| 15:53:33 | <ski> | e.g. `Codensity IO a' enforces that the only "not quite" things you can do are general `IO' things (that are polymorphic in the result type) |
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| 15:54:25 | <dminuoso> | Think I might just have to start using Cont here. |
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| 15:54:50 | <dminuoso> | Perhaps the the explicit and manual CPS is just too thick to look through |
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| 15:55:02 | <ski> | (of course, one could also imagine `putAttr :: Attr a => a -> (Word32,Put)' (or even `putAttr# :: Attr a => a -> (# Word32,Put #)') .. but presumably the ergonomics of CPS is nicer, in your case |
| 15:55:19 | <ski> | ) |
| 15:55:21 | <dminuoso> | Yeah, the ergonomics of CPS is a lot nicer indeed. |
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| 15:55:45 | <dminuoso> | (I tried it with the above, and there were bizarre edge cases I couldn't quite figure out) |
| 15:56:07 | <dminuoso> | Plus, I have the need to callWithCC soon |
| 15:56:15 | <kuribas> | since many libraries use CPS for exceptions (like attoparsec), wouldn't it be useful to have a ExceptT library that uses CPS? |
| 15:56:33 | <dminuoso> | Err, callCC I guess its called in Haskell |
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| 15:58:11 | <ski> | hm. i wonder how you're intending to capture and later swap out the current continuation |
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| 16:00:00 | <dminuoso> | ski: Very roughly, the protocol demands to serializen an "attribute" into an "invalid attribute" (which would not invalidate the entire pass) under certain conditions. |
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| 16:00:48 | <dminuoso> | Oh wait.. |
| 16:00:51 | <dminuoso> | That's in the Get part... |
| 16:00:53 | <dminuoso> | mmm |
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| 16:04:11 | <Iceland_jack> | hi alp |
| 16:04:38 | <alp> | hello |
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| 16:26:42 | <kuribas> | Why do libraries handwrite their transformers? |
| 16:28:25 | <kuribas> | with a generic cps'ed exceptT you could simply replace the current ExceptT with the CPSd version, and get the same performance gains, but without that difficulties. |
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| 16:30:49 | <kuribas> | for example, attoparsec uses a CPSed error handling, but it is hard to understand. |
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| 16:32:51 | <Rembane> | My guess is that they do it for (real or made up) performance gains. |
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| 16:33:56 | <kuribas> | the performance gain is real, but you could get the same with a custom ExceptT transformer IMO. |
| 16:34:24 | <davean> | kuribas: prove it. GHC often fails to merge transformer stacks. |
| 16:34:36 | <kuribas> | davean: when? |
| 16:34:44 | <kuribas> | davean: in my tests it worked fine... |
| 16:34:44 | <davean> | "almost always" |
| 16:34:59 | <davean> | I've never actually seen it merge them fully. It gets close |
| 16:35:05 | <kuribas> | davean: when the stack is in different modules? In the same module? |
| 16:35:32 | <kuribas> | or when it becomes so big it doesn't inline the functions? |
| 16:35:38 | <davean> | see the part where I've said I've never seen it. |
| 16:35:44 | <davean> | Litterly never seen it. |
| 16:35:53 | <kuribas> | I've seen it many times... |
| 16:36:00 | <davean> | Have you checked the actual core? |
| 16:36:04 | <kuribas> | yes |
| 16:36:10 | <davean> | Congrats. |
| 16:36:12 | <kuribas> | with optimizations on of course. |
| 16:36:27 | <kuribas> | davean: I'll do a test and report the result :) |
| 16:36:41 | <kuribas> | no point in arguing when you can test :) |
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| 16:38:24 | <dminuoso> | Well, in case of attoparsec, CPS avoids the need for fusion in the first place. |
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| 16:38:47 | <dminuoso> | If you encode it with sum types, you rely on GHC to do deforestration |
| 16:38:47 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: to get better compile times? |
| 16:38:47 | <davean> | Yah fusion is really good. Its just not entirely reliable. |
| 16:39:14 | <dminuoso> | kuribas: Not just that, you get much more reliable performance, rather than relying on GHC to do it for you |
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| 16:39:33 | <dminuoso> | Which can be dependent on build flags, how well inlining can take place, GHC version |
| 16:40:52 | <kuribas> | letting the compiler do the work is a good thing IMO |
| 16:41:35 | <kuribas> | I don't mind trading compile times for developper times, easier to understand code, and less chance of bugs. |
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| 16:44:29 | <dminuoso> | Its not about whether GHC can take work off you |
| 16:44:33 | <dminuoso> | Its whether GHC can reliably do it for you. |
| 16:45:10 | <kuribas> | I don't need a 100% gain, 80% will do. |
| 16:45:13 | <kuribas> | but not 20% |
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| 16:45:55 | <davean> | well most of the community thinks putting in a few extra minutes to get the 100% is more than worth it for core libraries. |
| 16:46:12 | <kuribas> | yeah, I guess so |
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| 16:46:44 | <davean> | Also, like, often combining them can make the code conceptually simpler because you're no longer dealing with the product. Some cases thats not true. It varies. |
| 16:46:52 | <dminuoso> | Right, especially since with libraries the compiler choice (version and flags) is out of the library authors control |
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| 16:47:10 | <dminuoso> | So by using CPS, the library author ensures you get optimizations without you your help |
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| 16:47:24 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: I am not advocating against CPS |
| 16:47:43 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: I am proposing a CPSed version of ExceptT |
| 16:48:27 | <kuribas> | that could be used as drop-in replacement for ExceptT |
| 16:49:22 | <dminuoso> | ah |
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| 16:50:56 | <davean> | kuribas: oh, you know that inlining often ruins performance on non-microbenchmarks, right? Also in particular on lower-end CPUs. |
| 16:51:15 | <kuribas> | what do you mean? |
| 16:51:30 | <kuribas> | ghc compile times? |
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| 16:51:56 | <davean> | Inlining increases code size, and when you start spilling cache, or even not fitting in microop cache, performance degrades. So large pieces of code are often better off *without* inlining to get the sharing. |
| 16:51:59 | <goldcell> | does haskell get around the need to conditionally express variables? |
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| 16:52:30 | <davean> | kuribas: inlining is a common case where a local optimization becomes a global pessimisation |
| 16:52:34 | <davean> | goldcell: what is |
| 16:52:43 | <davean> | goldcell: what is "conditionally express variables"? |
| 16:53:07 | <kuribas> | davean: yes, but in the case you want the inlining. |
| 16:53:13 | <kuribas> | "this case" |
| 16:53:21 | <davean> | kuribas: in particular you see this a lot with serialization/deserialization libraries. |
| 16:53:25 | <goldcell> | e.g. when a value can be a null type or the type you actually want |
| 16:53:51 | <davean> | goldcell: what is a "null type"? |
| 16:53:53 | <ski> | we have `Maybe', for absence of values |
| 16:54:05 | <davean> | A type is specific |
| 16:54:15 | <davean> | you could designate one as ... no, I don't think "null type" makes sense. |
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| 16:54:30 | <kuribas> | davean: inlining also allows for other optimizations, like deforestation... |
| 16:54:39 | <davean> | kuribas: sure. |
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| 16:54:50 | <kuribas> | without inlining, functional programs would be very slow. |
| 16:55:11 | <kuribas> | maybe GRIN could improve on this. |
| 16:55:29 | <kuribas> | by only inlining functions where you know there will be optimizations done. |
| 16:55:52 | <p0a> | goldcell: yeah it does |
| 16:55:57 | <davean> | kuribas: we use inlining to get to deforestation, but thats not truly paired IMO |
| 16:56:13 | <p0a> | goldcell: (1+) <$> Just 2 ==> Just 3, whereas if you do (1+) <$> Nothing you get Nothing |
| 16:56:13 | <davean> | goldcell: are you sure you don't mean null values? |
| 16:56:24 | <goldcell> | ski, yeah I think that's what I'm looking for |
| 16:56:40 | <davean> | Maybe covers values being null, not types though? |
| 16:57:02 | <davean> | (and even in C, there is "null" but there isn't a "null type", each type's null is different) |
| 16:57:17 | <davean> | (Though with REALLY complicated rules saying they have to compare the same and such) |
| 16:57:28 | <goldcell> | I was just programming in go, where it is called nil |
| 16:57:37 | ski | . o O ( "Null References: The Billion Dollar Mistake" by Tony Hoare in 2009-08-25 at <https://www.infoq.com/presentations/Null-References-The-Billion-Dollar-Mistake-Tony-Hoare/> ) |
| 16:58:01 | <int-e> | . o O ( small fries ) |
| 16:58:11 | <davean> | goldcell: mmm, ok, so I do think you're confused about values and types then. |
| 16:58:39 | <goldcell> | go on ... |
| 16:58:53 | <davean> | null values are the representation of absence inside a type, a type is a specification |
| 16:59:24 | <davean> | you can trivially lift/extend any type to also include the concept of emptiness with "Maybe" |
| 16:59:47 | <davean> | The TYPE just says what can be there though |
| 16:59:58 | <ski> | (and you can do it again, adding another element that was not in the original domain. this is different from "nullable types") |
| 17:00:38 | <goldcell> | ok, thanks :] |
| 17:01:26 | <davean> | In Haskell the types represent if the value can be "null". This is true in go and C also, just there its implicitely required an entire set must have null values allowed. |
| 17:01:35 | ski | . o O ( "Option types, optional parameters" ) |
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| 17:03:38 | <hjdk09p> | ;l |
| 17:04:13 | ski | . o O ( "Option types, optional parameters" by Riastradh in 2006-02-03 at their blag at <https://mumble.net/~campbell/blag.txt>,RSS <http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan/blag.xml> ) |
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| 17:47:00 | hackage | brittany 0.12.2.0 - Haskell source code formatter https://hackage.haskell.org/package/brittany-0.12.2.0 (fozworth) |
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| 17:50:59 | <kuribas> | devalot: well, the core is hard to read, but it looks fine. |
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| 17:51:09 | <kuribas> | erm davean |
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| 17:52:04 | <kuribas> | davean: my stack isn't complicated though: newtype EventParser l e m a = EventParser { getEventParser :: ExceptT (EventParseError e) (StateT (ParserState l) m) |
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| 17:53:57 | <kuribas> | davean: And I just had to replace ExceptT with my new CPSExceptT |
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| 18:01:00 | <kuribas> | davean: for example the "someTag" function now takes the failure continuation, success continuation and state. |
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| 18:17:26 | <p0a> | nshepperd2: "with Lazy IO you get a big ByteString containing the entire input" -> how do I get it? |
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| 18:17:48 | <p0a> | ohhhh sorry I just realized. There's function in ByteString.Lazy that work on handles |
| 18:17:50 | <p0a> | my bad, ignore it :P |
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| 18:19:37 | <kuribas> | p0a: you should be careful when reading lazy bytestrings from handles. |
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| 18:21:33 | <kuribas> | p0a: make sure you consume the bytestring before closing the handle |
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| 18:22:27 | <nexii> | hello. I'm trying to run through learn you a haskell and trying to implement a fizzbuzz-like function like boomBangs http://learnyouahaskell.com/starting-out found that if x `mod` 5 == 0 and x `mod` 3 == 0 then "FIZZBUZZ" issues an error. I was wondering how I can refactor this to make it not be bad and without pattern matching |
| 18:24:15 | <p0a> | kuribas: it's possible to naively close the handle before the string is consumed? |
| 18:24:24 | <kuribas> | p0a: yes |
| 18:24:35 | <p0a> | so then when the string is attempted to be consumed it results to an io error right? |
| 18:24:42 | <kuribas> | yes |
| 18:24:44 | <dolio> | Just don't close the handle manually. |
| 18:24:56 | <p0a> | that's a good point, thanks |
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| 18:27:27 | <p0a> | nexii: https://wiki.haskell.org/Fizzbuzz shows an example |
| 18:28:42 | <nexii> | p0a, thanks! |
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| 18:33:42 | <pjb> | p0a: nexii: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZWsyUKwTbg&t=364s |
| 18:33:53 | <pjb> | p0a: nexii: I mean: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZWsyUKwTbg |
| 18:33:58 | <nexii> | I'm trying a non-pattern matching version and was wondering how I can fix this: fizzbuzzs xs = [if x `mod` 15 == 0 then "FIZZBUZZ" else x | x <- xs] (not considering fizz or buzz) |
| 18:34:37 | <pjb> | (O(1) fizzbuzz; but check my comment with a lisp O(1) fizzbuzz). |
| 18:35:08 | <dminuoso> | pjb: Without pattern matching somewhere, this is going to require some real trickery. |
| 18:35:12 | <nexii> | this is issuing an error here "No instance for (Integral [Char]) arising from a use of `mod'" |
| 18:35:22 | <dminuoso> | pjb: Generally, all evaluation in Haskell is driven by pattern matching... |
| 18:35:56 | <MarcelineVQ> | you need to be explicit about converting x to a String since "FIZZBUZZ" is a String and both choices of an if need to result in the same type, show x is one way |
| 18:35:57 | <nexii> | dminuoso, definitely. I'm just trying to align my expectations with reality |
| 18:36:00 | hackage | base64-bytestring 1.2.0.1 - Fast base64 encoding and decoding for ByteStrings https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base64-bytestring-1.2.0.1 (topos) |
| 18:36:05 | <dminuoso> | nexii: Ah, so imagine `x = if b then f else g` |
| 18:36:10 | <dminuoso> | nexii: f and g have to be of the same type |
| 18:36:21 | <dminuoso> | (Because what else would the type of `x` be?) |
| 18:37:09 | <dsal> | p0a: have you looked at conduit? You're taking a long path to doing relay conduit's core competency is. |
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| 18:37:26 | <nexii> | ooooh right! |
| 18:37:27 | <p0a> | nexii: "FIZZBUZZ" and 2 are not the same type |
| 18:37:32 | <dminuoso> | nexii: The error message is perhaps strange, because GHC simply infers `x` to be of type string (because "FIZZBUZZ" is a string), and then a constraint from the use of `mod` pops up |
| 18:37:42 | <nexii> | can I cast as a string version of a number? |
| 18:37:52 | <nexii> | cast *x |
| 18:38:01 | <p0a> | You can create a 'supertype' that includes both strings and integers |
| 18:38:14 | <nexii> | gotcha. thanks! |
| 18:38:15 | <p0a> | or you can turn an Int into a String with `show', like `show n' |
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| 18:38:37 | <nexii> | ah. I think I wanted that |
| 18:38:39 | <p0a> | dsal: not yet :) I will tomorrow probably. Woring slowly |
| 18:39:23 | <dminuoso> | p0a: Regarding lazy IO, just dont do it. :p |
| 18:40:19 | <bqv> | lol, for a second there i thought that was a reply to a message i'd sent a week ago about lazy IO |
| 18:40:50 | <dsal> | bqv: turns out, it was just an async exception |
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| 18:41:22 | <bqv> | hahah |
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| 18:42:41 | <dminuoso> | dsal: If p0a just disconnected now, that'd be funny. |
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| 18:42:59 | <p0a> | :P |
| 18:44:13 | <p0a> | somehow I am using a function that knows that the ByteString is lazy and I'm getting an error |
| 18:44:53 | <p0a> | I'm trying to use fromBytes from hexstring, "Couldn't match expected type 'Data.ByteString.Internal.ByteString' with actual type 'Data.ByteString.Lazy.ByteString' |
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| 18:45:34 | <p0a> | dminuoso: I had abandoned the idea of using lazy IO but it's a last attempt before bed |
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| 18:48:46 | <bqv> | p0a: would it be too awful to strictify the bytestring? |
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| 18:49:00 | <bqv> | there's a convenient iso... |
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| 18:49:40 | <p0a> | okay I was confused because they have the same name as types |
| 18:50:00 | <p0a> | I thought they were literally the same and that somehow the compiler knew when to be lazy. I now realize it's two different types |
| 18:50:03 | <dsal> | Huh. I have a program that's been crashing occasionally. There's nothing in the logs but an exit code. That sucks. |
| 18:50:07 | <bqv> | lol |
| 18:50:31 | <MarcelineVQ> | slightly better than segfault |
| 18:50:56 | <MarcelineVQ> | or is it |
| 18:51:39 | <bqv> | to be fair, segfault's quite a lot of information. silent exit is basically an informational middle finger |
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| 18:52:20 | <dsal> | It's sometimes -1 and sometimes 1, so it even uses different hands. |
| 18:52:45 | <dsal> | Many of them were last night when I was playing around with it and related bits, so that's not surprising, but the others are. |
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| 18:55:30 | <p0a> | thank you |
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| 19:43:01 | hackage | hlint 3.2.2 - Source code suggestions https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hlint-3.2.2 (NeilMitchell) |
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| 19:57:01 | hackage | ormolu 0.1.4.1 - A formatter for Haskell source code https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ormolu-0.1.4.1 (mrkkrp) |
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| 19:59:15 | <monochrom> | I don't simply say never use lazy I/O. But I say under very strict conditions, therefore you end up rarely using it. |
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| 20:00:15 | <monochrom> | My condition goes like: You understand lazy evaluation thoroughly, and based on that you see that your use case is dead simple to reason about. |
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| 20:06:21 | <dolio> | Hex dump of a file doesn't seem like it is a hard thing to reason about, if that was the actual problem. |
| 20:06:31 | <monochrom> | An example is main = interact (unlines . map solve_one . lines). This is particularly idomatic for test-based programming contests. |
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| 20:08:03 | <monochrom> | Another one I use is lazy bytestring's hGetContents and giving it to cassava's decodeEither, and in case of cassava declaring parse error, the program quits very quickly. |
| 20:08:58 | <monochrom> | Therefore, if there is no parse error, the whole stream will have to be exhausted for cassava to confirm there is no parse error, therefore the handle is closed before my program can proceed. |
| 20:09:15 | <monochrom> | And if there is a parse error, my program quits without much further ado anyway. |
| 20:09:48 | <monochrom> | Therefore, either way, the handle is closed deterministically. |
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| 20:21:57 | <moet> | is there some way to find the bit-width of Int and Word and Float and Double at compile time? |
| 20:22:32 | <moet> | i don's see anything about it in the section on CPP macros https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/phases.html#standard-cpp-macros |
| 20:23:19 | <moet> | i could do it at runtime, i guess, using Data.Bits.bitSize i suppose |
| 20:23:43 | <moet> | i'm trying to select a representation for a type though, so it would be better done at compile time |
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| 20:24:18 | <geekosaur> | there are sized versions of most of those, e.g. Int32 vs. Int64 vs. Int |
| 20:25:35 | <geekosaur> | and similarly for Word, but not Float or Double |
| 20:26:02 | <moet> | Yes, there are sized versions (and i know there size at compile time!) |
| 20:26:15 | <geekosaur> | but also be aware that usually they'll be stored as 64 bit values anyway |
| 20:26:17 | <moet> | but if i want to create a sized representation of Int, i don't know it's size .. |
| 20:26:22 | <geekosaur> | unless you're using packed vectors |
| 20:26:34 | <moet> | hmm.. |
| 20:26:39 | <moet> | no packed vectors involved |
| 20:27:01 | <moet> | but i need to know whether Int is 32 or 64 bit to select an appropriate representation for it in my work |
| 20:27:01 | <dolio> | How static are you talking about? Like, are you generating code based on the static size? |
| 20:27:23 | <moet> | i'm not generating code. i'm using a closed type family to map haskell types to information about their representation |
| 20:27:39 | <moet> | then i'm using instances on the representation type to implement my dsl thing |
| 20:28:15 | <moet> | so in all my instance methods for Int's representation type, i could use bitSize to do the right thing at runtime i guess |
| 20:28:51 | <dolio> | Well, primitive has sizes for everything, and I think it gets them from a header file. |
| 20:29:01 | <dolio> | For the non-obvious ones. |
| 20:29:04 | <moet> | oh! that's interesting.. i'll take a look there |
| 20:30:45 | <moet> | https://github.com/haskell/primitive/blob/0e9141ca103c847e8ebe932a8663c5b8849f564a/Data/Primitive/MachDeps.hs |
| 20:31:00 | <moet> | looks like they're importing the header and that just makes the defines available in haskell |
| 20:31:04 | <moet> | i hand no idea that i could do that |
| 20:31:13 | <dolio> | Well, it's using CPP. |
| 20:32:31 | <moet> | well, when you put it that way :) |
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| 20:35:31 | hackage | postgresql-simple 0.6.3 - Mid-Level PostgreSQL client library https://hackage.haskell.org/package/postgresql-simple-0.6.3 (phadej) |
| 20:36:03 | <moet> | dolio: geekosaur: thanks! |
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| 20:39:20 | <dolio> | I think it's unlikely that GHC will ever not be using IEEE for Float/Double, though, even though the Haskell report says they're implementation defined. |
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| 20:40:13 | <dolio> | So Int/Word is probably the only variable. |
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| 20:43:59 | <dolio> | At least as far as storage goes. There are probably flags that allow code to be generated using higher precision math on some processors, but once they get stored to memory, they'd be rounded back to 32/64 bits. |
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| 21:12:14 | <justsomeguy> | Does a list have to be traversed every time to access some arbitrary index, like with “[1..] !! 20”, or is there a compiler optimization for lookups like this? |
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| 21:13:48 | <hpc> | it's traversed every time |
| 21:13:49 | <electricityZZZZ> | so if speculative execution in modern CPUs is very important for performance, has anyone examined program-specific execution speculation units? |
| 21:14:10 | <electricityZZZZ> | i know that you can provide a clue to CPUs like "this branch is usually the one to take" but i mean something much more complex than this |
| 21:14:52 | <suzu_> | seems like a hard problem |
| 21:15:03 | <merijn> | electricityZZZZ: Yes, Intel has |
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| 21:15:26 | <merijn> | It's called the Itanium and it flopped spectacularly, because no one wanted a machine that couldn't run their old existing code :p |
| 21:15:56 | <electricityZZZZ> | and so what i mean is that i have a 1 megabyte model "trained on common program execution patterns", which might supplement the existing speculative execution system. |
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| 21:16:15 | <electricityZZZZ> | and that 1 megabyte model is uploaded to the cpu and is active when my program runs |
| 21:16:48 | <electricityZZZZ> | merijn: oh really? interesting. maybe it was just a market timing problem? |
| 21:17:46 | <dolio> | So there are 300MB of 'models' stored on the CPU for my 300+ processes? |
| 21:18:04 | <hpc> | there was never going to be a right time for it |
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| 21:18:26 | <electricityZZZZ> | yes it makes task switching hard |
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| 21:19:01 | <electricityZZZZ> | maybe a 10 MB cache of 1 MB models,... |
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| 21:19:27 | <nitrix> | SpaceX crew-1 mission for the interested: https://www.spacex.com/launches/ |
| 21:20:09 | <electricityZZZZ> | diverse astronaut group :D |
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| 21:59:42 | <koz_> | For attoparsec's 'takeTill', when its predicate returns True, is the thing that caused the predicate to return True also consumed? |
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| 22:03:39 | <koz_> | Seemingly the answer is 'no'. |
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| 22:16:09 | <moet> | dolio: thanks for the note about Float/Double |
| 22:16:33 | <servo> | HELLO |
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| 22:20:45 | <boom> | Hi, I am studying lambda calculus, and I heard haskell is based on it so, here is my question what does this expression mean λx.λy.x z y ? I have trouble understading |
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| 22:21:56 | <moet> | boom: it seems like it's missing one set of parentheses, but i could be wrong |
| 22:22:53 | <moet> | but it's a function that takes a parameter called x and returns a function that takes a parameter called y and then does an expression 'x z y' but that expression seems to be missing parentheses which would make its meaning clear |
| 22:23:50 | <moet> | s/does an expression/returns the value of the expression/ |
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| 22:24:19 | <boom> | the prof rewrote this expression as λx.(λy.((x z) y)) |
| 22:24:31 | <boom> | he said something about priority |
| 22:25:11 | <koz_> | boom: Most explanations of the lambda calculus define what binds more tightly than what. |
| 22:25:12 | <moet> | i guess he's trying to teach you the associativity of application |
| 22:25:16 | <koz_> | This is called 'precedence'. |
| 22:25:33 | <koz_> | I would recommend looking at whatever source for its syntax you got given closely - this is usually somewhat buried. |
| 22:25:53 | <moet> | yeah, it's very important to fully parenthesize an expression to avoid this ambiguity.. |
| 22:25:55 | <koz_> | The main reason is to avoid having to explicitly parenthesise everything. |
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| 22:28:00 | <boom> | I was told that s t1 ... tn ... = (... (s,t1)...)tn and the application has priority over the abstraction |
| 22:28:28 | <koz_> | OK, so let's follow that through. |
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| 22:29:18 | <boom> | I'm saying to myself, in my formula what is s, t1 ? |
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| 22:29:21 | <koz_> | Since application has priority, \x\y x z y is really \x\y (x z y) |
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| 22:29:42 | <koz_> | Then, by the first rule, we have \x\y (x z y) is really \x\y ((x z) y). |
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| 22:30:11 | <koz_> | Then, by the first rule again, we have that \x\y ((x z) y) is really \x (\y ((x z) y)) |
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| 22:30:40 | <boom> | Ok why is x y z part oif the application, I would expect only z and y to be part of it |
| 22:30:42 | <boom> | ? |
| 22:30:57 | <koz_> | Because there's nothing else it could possibly be. |
| 22:31:20 | <koz_> | In order to have anything other than application, you either have to have another \ there. |
| 22:31:25 | <koz_> | (or lambda symbol, same diff) |
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| 22:31:50 | <koz_> | If you have a b c d e f g h i j k ...., all applications. |
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| 22:33:36 | <koz_> | Actually, I was slightly wrong - that last step isn't actually the first rule. |
| 22:34:01 | <koz_> | The first rule there is application-related only based on your description. |
| 22:35:52 | <boom> | in s t1 ... tn ... = (... (s,t1)...)tn is there a difference between s and the ts ? |
| 22:36:02 | <boom> | t1, t2 ... |
| 22:36:02 | <boom> | ? |
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| 22:36:11 | <koz_> | boom: In what sense do you mean 'is there a difference'? |
| 22:36:20 | <koz_> | I'm not sure I understand your question. |
| 22:36:24 | <boom> | are these all terms ? |
| 22:36:36 | <koz_> | Yes. |
| 22:36:46 | <koz_> | Because in the lambda calculus there isn't anything else. |
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| 22:40:03 | <boom> | Ok, so \x.s is the abstraction. If I understand correctly this is like saying that s is and epression that depends on x, am I corrcect? |
| 22:40:26 | <boom> | an expression* |
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| 22:40:44 | <koz_> | I'm not sure what you mean by that. \x . s is a lambda, correct. If by 'expression' you mean 'term', then the answer is 'it depends on what s is'. |
| 22:41:04 | <koz_> | You can have \x . y, which is totally fine, and then nothing depends on x at all. |
| 22:41:30 | <boom> | ok so what does \x . y mean ? |
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| 22:41:40 | <boom> | I'm not sure i've understood |
| 22:41:44 | <koz_> | boom: We're not in the world of 'meaning' yet at all. |
| 22:42:07 | <koz_> | \x . y is a lambda abstraction, whose body is y. |
| 22:42:15 | <koz_> | In my case, 'y' is a free variable. |
| 22:42:35 | <koz_> | In this case, nothing depends on anything. |
| 22:42:43 | <boom> | ok |
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| 22:43:11 | <koz_> | If you had '\x . y x', then you can kind of argue that when you apply '\x . y x' to something, the _result_ of the application depends on the argument. |
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| 22:43:56 | <koz_> | For example: '(\x . y x) z' is an application, which reduces to 'y z'. |
| 22:44:20 | <koz_> | However, '(\x . y) z' reduces to 'y', (\x . y) foobar' reduces to 'y', etc. |
| 22:45:14 | <boom> | so here when you write \x .y x here what is the body of the lambda expression ? |
| 22:45:19 | <boom> | is it y x |
| 22:45:19 | <boom> | ? |
| 22:45:31 | <boom> | or is it y and then you apply x |
| 22:45:32 | <boom> | ? |
| 22:45:32 | <koz_> | '\x . y x' has the body 'y x'. |
| 22:45:49 | <koz_> | This has nothing to do with applying anything - it's a question of form. |
| 22:46:08 | <boom> | ok so anything after the dot is part of the body ? |
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| 22:47:02 | <koz_> | boom: An abstraction has the form \VAR . BODY. I wrote them in caps to show that they stand for (respectively) an arbitrary variable and an arbitrary term. |
| 22:47:22 | <MarcelineVQ> | var sometimes called head |
| 22:47:33 | <koz_> | Yep! |
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| 22:48:38 | <boom> | VAR and BODY can be any term or varibale ? |
| 22:48:51 | <koz_> | VAR can be any variable. BODY can be any term. |
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| 22:50:37 | <boom> | so if I go back to λx.λy.x z y Is λy.x z y the body of the abstraction λx ? |
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| 22:50:44 | <koz_> | Correct! |
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| 22:53:33 | <moet> | oof, trying to use ((*) :: Nat -> Nat -> Nat) from GHC.TypeLits ... |
| 22:53:47 | <moet> | since it collides with * (the kind of concrete types) ... |
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| 22:54:07 | <koz_> | moet: You probably want to import Data.Kind (Type) and use 'Type' instead of '*'. |
| 22:54:25 | <moet> | koz_: i'm trying to refer to the Nat level multiply |
| 22:54:33 | <moet> | and ghc keeps thinking i'm talking aout Type |
| 22:54:52 | <koz_> | Did you enable TypeOperators? |
| 22:54:54 | <MarcelineVQ> | Do you have/need TypeOperators on? |
| 22:54:57 | <moet> | yes |
| 22:55:08 | <koz_> | moet: Could you pastebin the exact error message? |
| 22:55:16 | <moet> | let's see.. how do we do this with the bot again |
| 22:55:26 | <merijn> | You need to disable StarIsType |
| 22:55:35 | <moet> | merijn: that sounds promising |
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| 22:56:34 | <koz_> | Yeah, that's like {-# LANGUAGE NoStarIsType #-} or something. |
| 22:57:04 | <moet> | NoStarIsType worked; thank you all |
| 22:57:27 | <boom> | Ok, I'm stiil not sure why \x\y x z y is really \x\y (x z y), I know you said that it can't be any other way, but I still don't get it. |
| 22:58:14 | <MarcelineVQ> | check out the wikipedia article for lambda calculus |
| 22:58:30 | <koz_> | boom: What is the body of '\x . \y . x z y'? |
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| 22:58:59 | <boom> | \y . x z y |
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| 22:59:17 | <koz_> | OK, so let's parenthesise it for convenience. |
| 22:59:24 | <koz_> | \x . (\y . x z y) |
| 22:59:34 | <koz_> | Now, we note that our body is an abstraction. |
| 22:59:47 | <koz_> | Namely \y . x z y |
| 22:59:51 | <koz_> | What is _its_ body? |
| 22:59:56 | <boom> | so it also has a body |
| 23:00:00 | <boom> | x z y |
| 23:00:01 | <koz_> | Yes. |
| 23:00:11 | <koz_> | So let's parenthesise _that_for convenience. |
| 23:00:18 | <koz_> | \y . (x z y) |
| 23:00:24 | <koz_> | And then paste that into our original. |
| 23:00:30 | <koz_> | \x . (\y . (x z y)) |
| 23:00:50 | <koz_> | Now, to deal with 'x z y', we apply the rule you pasted way back above. |
| 23:01:01 | <koz_> | Which says that 'x z y' is really what? |
| 23:01:07 | <boom> | (x z) y |
| 23:01:20 | <koz_> | So after convenience parenthesising and pasting, we get? |
| 23:01:47 | <boom> | \x . (\y . ((x z) y)) |
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| 23:02:08 | <koz_> | Does that help? |
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| 23:02:37 | <boom> | yeah! thanks |
| 23:03:32 | <koz_> | @pl \f -> f x >=> f y |
| 23:03:32 | <lambdabot> | liftM2 (>=>) ($ x) ($ y) |
| 23:04:21 | <koz_> | So wait that'd be like (>=>) <$> ($ x) ($ y) f? |
| 23:04:24 | <koz_> | Sorry |
| 23:04:36 | <koz_> | (>=>) <$> ($ x) <*> ($ y) <*> f |
| 23:04:36 | <boom> | But in this way of doing things have we used the fact that application has priority ? |
| 23:05:04 | <koz_> | boom: I don't think we have, no. |
| 23:05:09 | <MarcelineVQ> | ((>=>) <$> ($ x) <*> ($ y)) f ? |
| 23:05:24 | <koz_> | MarcelineVQ: Egads lol nope. |
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| 23:17:48 | <monochrom> | You are also in for a lot of confusion and then disillusionment about what "priority" is really for. |
| 23:18:27 | <monochrom> | TL;DR the highschool narrative of "do this first, do that later" is simplistic and inapplicable. |
| 23:18:51 | <monochrom> | Truth be told it has never been about "do what first". |
| 23:19:06 | <Uniaika> | :o |
| 23:19:15 | <Uniaika> | so what is it about then? |
| 23:19:16 | <koz_> | Something something order of reduction something something confluence something something. |
| 23:19:30 | <monochrom> | Parsing. Where you may omit parentheses. |
| 23:19:33 | <koz_> | I can something-something about a bazillion more terms in there. |
| 23:19:41 | <koz_> | (heh) |
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| 23:21:52 | <monochrom> | It is just a happy coincidence that highschool operators are mostly eager (anti-lazy), therefore what's deeper in the parse tree are also what's "done" earlier. |
| 23:21:59 | <monochrom> | However, consider this: |
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| 23:22:41 | <monochrom> | @quote monochrom lazy.eval |
| 23:22:41 | <lambdabot> | monochrom says: some kind of lazy evaluation is already known to highschool kids. teachers tell you that in a*(b+c), "evaluate b+c first", right? well, I challenge you to take 0*(389238493+97283748) |
| 23:22:41 | <lambdabot> | and find one single student who faithfully evaluate 389238493+97283748 first. |
| 23:23:08 | <koz_> | :D |
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| 23:23:38 | <monochrom> | This proves that "precedence is about evaluation order" is a white lie. |
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| 23:24:29 | <monochrom> | We forgive highschools for this white lie because the average people cannot cope with both concepts, evaluation order and parse tree, at the same time. |
| 23:25:02 | <monochrom> | But as advanced programmers we cannot hang on to that untenable model ourselves. |
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| 23:30:39 | <pjb> | monochrom: this is bullshit. There are he precendence rules, and then there are simplifications and shortcuts. There are numbers a, b and c with non-trivial values o such as a*(b+c) can be evaluated to d quickly, by following some simplification rule. for example, 1289389183012*(812738127389173981+-812738127389173981). |
| 23:30:50 | <pjb> | or 1289389183012*(812738127389173981+-812738127389173980). |
| 23:32:44 | <MarcelineVQ> | non-trivial doesn't mean big, it means it won't show up as a question in a trivial pursuit board game |
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All times are in UTC on 2020-11-15.