Logs on 2020-12-06 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 00:22:53 | <cads> | monochrom, I hate to say that I have recently declared for VI in that conflict |
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| 00:24:38 | <cads> | I don't understand why the ghc proposal process doesn't require an implementation along with the proposal https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals#how-to-start-a-new-proposal |
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| 00:25:56 | <cads> | saying "you need to have a correct implementation" would do a lot to prove performance charachteristics and utility - to wit, the community would be free to /try/ proposed changes |
| 00:26:00 | <cads> | by default |
| 00:26:44 | <cads> | is the implementation cost of some propose features so large that it depends on the committee to implement/attract implementers? |
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| 00:28:17 | <cads> | 1. It has a spec. 2. It has code that implements the spec. 3. The code and spec don't totally stink (subjective review criterion) => this is a standalone proposal, and it warrants inclusion in the repo |
| 00:29:29 | <cads> | not saying "machine checked correctness proofs" here, but 80% unit test coverage for unit tests that can run under 10 seconds, sounds like a good idea |
| 00:29:56 | <cads> | ie, that's what I will demand for any hask code within my own org |
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| 01:18:31 | hackage | c2hs 0.28.7 - C->Haskell FFI tool that gives some cross-language type safety https://hackage.haskell.org/package/c2hs-0.28.7 (deech) |
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| 01:24:02 | hackage | grow-vector 0.1.0.0 - Mutable vector with efficient appends https://hackage.haskell.org/package/grow-vector-0.1.0.0 (NCrashed) |
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| 02:02:32 | hackage | hledger-lib 1.20 - A reusable library providing the core functionality of hledger https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hledger-lib-1.20 (SimonMichael) |
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| 02:45:27 | <ezzieyguywuf> | does cabal update update any packages? |
| 02:45:32 | <ezzieyguywuf> | or just the database? |
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| 02:47:17 | <MarcelineVQ> | just the hackage index |
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| 02:48:12 | <ezzieyguywuf> | how do I tell it to update any packages that have never versions? |
| 02:48:29 | <ezzieyguywuf> | or do I just have to do that manually? |
| 02:48:38 | <ezzieyguywuf> | specifically I'm just thinking about the things I've installed with cabal install |
| 02:49:43 | <MarcelineVQ> | manually. you'd type cabal install thething after a cabal update |
| 02:50:27 | <sclv> | with v2 whenever you cabal-build it'll calculate a plan with the latest avail pkgs |
| 02:50:41 | <ezzieyguywuf> | MarcelineVQ: gotcha. |
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| 02:51:26 | <ezzieyguywuf> | so I have to know "ah, hledger v1.20 dropped, time to manually update!" |
| 02:51:30 | <ezzieyguywuf> | seems a bit tedious |
| 02:51:39 | <ezzieyguywuf> | sclv: lol, that wasn't the case before? |
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| 02:54:47 | <sclv> | in v1 it uses the already installed versions if they satisfy the deps |
| 02:55:08 | <sclv> | i mean for an executable though of course its not going to magically keep them up to date in the background |
| 02:55:11 | <ezzieyguywuf> | interesting |
| 02:55:14 | <sclv> | its not like a system package manager |
| 02:55:19 | <sclv> | its a build tool that can fetch deps |
| 02:55:22 | <ezzieyguywuf> | indeed it is not. |
| 02:55:36 | <ezzieyguywuf> | so I wonder if I should avoid using `cabal install` and instead prefer my package manager |
| 02:55:56 | <sclv> | for executables, if you're ok with the release schedule of your package manager, yes |
| 02:56:00 | <sclv> | if you want to be more bleeding edge, no |
| 02:56:14 | <monochrom> | Your package manager lags way back behind. |
| 02:56:35 | <sclv> | i mean for 90% of the executables on any given linux box i'm okay with that tho |
| 02:56:55 | <sclv> | just.. i won't expect to be on the latest and greatest by a longshot |
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| 02:57:14 | <monochrom> | But to be honest, I just use ubuntu's version of pandoc, yes. :) |
| 02:57:31 | <monochrom> | But totally not ubuntu's version of GHC, random, QuickCheck. |
| 02:57:35 | <ezzieyguywuf> | lol, my package manager doesn't have hledger anyway |
| 02:57:59 | <ezzieyguywuf> | monochrom: but QuickCheck, for example, I just use while coding, i.e. not as an executable in my path |
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| 03:05:33 | <sm[m]> | ezzieyguywuf: in hledger's case, there's a curl command you could run with cron :) |
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| 03:19:01 | <ezzieyguywuf> | sm[m]: lol, I'm hesitant enough as it is running these variosu curl stuffies, without putting it on a cron |
| 03:19:14 | <ezzieyguywuf> | and cron is not the type of package management I'm interesting in, lol. |
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| 03:28:56 | <sm[m]> | quite right :) though it's kind of like Debians unattended-upgrades.. |
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| 04:20:48 | <ezzieyguywuf> | hrm, hledger-web seems to hang if I change the journal file using my text editor |
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| 04:22:00 | <ezzieyguywuf> | also, I tried `hledger-web MyAccount` but it still listed everything |
| 04:22:09 | <sm[m]> | ezzieyguywuf: strange, can you reproduce with a minimal file ? |
| 04:22:23 | <ezzieyguywuf> | sm[m]: let me try h/o |
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| 04:24:48 | <ezzieyguywuf> | sm[m]: this reproduces both |
| 04:24:50 | <ezzieyguywuf> | https://dpaste.com/89G2NYZ9H |
| 04:24:58 | <ezzieyguywuf> | `hledger-web -f Test.journal Checking` |
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| 04:28:01 | <sm[m]> | thanks! not for me.. |
| 04:28:06 | <sm[m]> | shall we take it to #hledger ? |
| 04:28:16 | <ezzieyguywuf> | lol thought I was in there already whoop |
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| 04:32:57 | <ario> | hi |
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| 04:36:51 | <rurt91> | hi |
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| 05:05:24 | <koala_man> | I'm trying to load a file in ghci but it says "Could not find module ‘Test.QuickCheck.All’". Can I point it to my cabal installed version? My ~/.cabal dir has a Test/QuickCheck/All.hi deep down but no .hs/.lhs/.hsig/.lhsig that ghci looks for |
| 05:06:16 | <ezzieyguywuf> | if I cabal install some-package-0.5, but alreaddy have some-package-0.6 installed, how can I make cabal update the symlink in ~/.local/bin? |
| 05:07:39 | <ezzieyguywuf> | hrm, ok just delete symlink and re-install |
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| 05:40:09 | <rif> | Hello friends. Can anyone offer some package management help? |
| 05:41:33 | <arahael> | rif: You might want to be a little bit more specific if you want genuine help. |
| 05:42:31 | <rif> | Sorry, new here, I was trying to figure out if this was a reasonable place to ask a detailed question. I can certainly be a lot more specific. |
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| 05:45:20 | <rif> | High-level: I installed Haskell platform on ubuntu. Things seemed to be working fine, but tonight I tried to import Data.List.Unique in a program and it didn't work. I ended up trying `cabal install --lib Unique`. After that, I could import Data.List.Unique, but I can no longer import Data.List.Split --- I get errors about the split package being hidden. Additionally, neither cabal nor ghc seem to think the unique package is actually |
| 05:45:21 | <rif> | installed (e.g, `ghc-package -list` doesn't show it as either local or global). So I'm not sure how to proceed. Any advice is welcome. |
| 05:45:54 | <rif> | Sorry, "ghc-pkg list" doesn't show unique as installed. |
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| 05:48:51 | <arahael> | rif: I have to go, but it's probably hidden because it's not listed in your project's cabal file. |
| 05:50:14 | <rif> | I don't know that I *have* a cabal file? All I did was start creating a file with a name like foo.hs, and then saying `ghc --make foo.hs` to get a binary. But your comment gives me ideas for things to look at --- I guess I edited some default cabal config. |
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| 05:51:30 | <arahael> | I think you'll want to try a `cabal init` or something |
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| 05:51:49 | <arahael> | Which should give you a file. Anyway, I'm gone. |
| 05:51:56 | <rif> | Thank you! |
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| 07:16:13 | <jle`> | koz_: hey, did you ever make any libraries involving fintary with Word-backed Sets? |
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| 07:16:23 | <koz_> | jle`: Nope. |
| 07:16:37 | <koz_> | I worked on the idea a bit but never published it. |
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| 07:18:42 | <jle`> | ah, interesting. was talking about a similiar idea RE: AoC stuff and thought such a thing might be useful |
| 07:18:48 | <jle`> | are you looking for PRs? :) |
| 07:20:24 | <jle`> | it'd be in finitary-derive, right? |
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| 07:39:26 | <topos> | Finitary + word-backed sets and Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez. |
| 07:39:29 | <topos> | what a night |
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| 07:50:13 | <koz_> | It'd be a different package most likely. |
| 07:50:28 | <koz_> | Since you're going for a set based on a bitvector right? |
| 07:50:45 | <koz_> | (it could actually be a newtype) |
| 07:51:23 | <koz_> | (newtype FinitarySet a = FinitarySet (Vector (Cardinality a) Bit)) |
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| 07:53:59 | <jle`> | mhm |
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| 07:54:10 | <jle`> | ah yeah, that would work i think :) |
| 07:54:17 | <jle`> | or maybe just a WordN |
| 07:54:22 | <koz_> | WordN? |
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| 07:54:37 | <koz_> | The main reason to use Vector (Cardinality a) Bit is just to borrow all the functions. |
| 07:54:47 | <koz_> | (and you could borrow like, 90% of the things you'd want) |
| 07:54:57 | <jle`> | Word8, Word64, etc :) |
| 07:55:02 | <koz_> | Ah. |
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| 07:55:19 | <koz_> | Well, Vector (Cardinality a) Bit is secretly a Vector Word64 underneath. |
| 07:55:23 | <jle`> | with the constraint that Cardinality a has to be less than 8, 64, etc. |
| 07:55:37 | <jle`> | hm, for unboxed vector? |
| 07:55:42 | <koz_> | Yep. |
| 07:55:49 | <koz_> | Let me link. |
| 07:55:56 | <jle`> | oh neat. i had that suspicion but thought there might be paging issues or something |
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| 07:56:16 | <koz_> | http://hackage.haskell.org/package/bitvec |
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| 07:56:41 | <jle`> | ooooh |
| 07:56:43 | <koz_> | This defines a newtype around Bool (called Bit) which has the relevant instances, including Unbox. |
| 07:56:50 | <koz_> | So it's packed super-tight. |
| 07:56:53 | <jle`> | noice |
| 07:57:00 | <jle`> | clever that they can just abuse the Unbox instance |
| 07:57:05 | <koz_> | Yep. |
| 07:57:11 | <koz_> | So you can just transitively abuse vector-sized. |
| 07:57:41 | <koz_> | There's also some specialized ops that you could use. |
| 07:58:05 | <koz_> | (zipBits for example) |
| 07:58:23 | <koz_> | You can use that to implement blindingly fast intersection and union. |
| 07:59:08 | <koz_> | You can also implement 'choose :: FinitarySet a -> Maybe a' using 'bitIndex'. |
| 07:59:14 | <koz_> | Also very fast. |
| 07:59:20 | <jle`> | i was looking at zipBits ... at first i thought it was inefficient, but then i noticed the type |
| 07:59:22 | <jle`> | very clever |
| 07:59:40 | <koz_> | Yeah, it's a clever hack. |
| 07:59:44 | <jle`> | also... `instance Bits (Vector Bit)` |
| 07:59:46 | <jle`> | dang |
| 07:59:52 | <koz_> | Yup. |
| 07:59:57 | <koz_> | Bodigrim did the work. |
| 08:00:12 | <jle`> | <3 |
| 08:00:21 | <koz_> | So basically if you want FinitarySet, that's how I'd go about it. |
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| 08:00:42 | <koz_> | Amusingly, if you want to galaxy brain it up, you can do FinitaryMultiMap a b. |
| 08:00:47 | <koz_> | (by using a bitmatrix) |
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| 08:01:38 | <koz_> | Also makes me wonder if a MutableFinitarySet m a is a worthwhile idea. |
| 08:01:52 | <koz_> | (and if so, it needs a better name) |
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| 08:06:32 | <jle`> | the possibilities are endless |
| 08:07:18 | <koz_> | The multimap is the one I question the most. |
| 08:07:26 | <koz_> | It's cute, but it doesn't seem terribly useful. |
| 08:07:40 | <koz_> | (and it's not likely very efficiently packed either, because that matrix is likely sparse AF) |
| 08:08:14 | <koz_> | You can probably use some kind of sparse matrix representation I guess? |
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| 08:10:02 | <jle`> | hm... |
| 08:10:11 | <jle`> | i'll start with maybe implementing the finitary set for this specific application |
| 08:10:16 | <jle`> | and then see if it would be helpful to generalize :O |
| 08:10:25 | <iqubic> | Which application is it? Letters? |
| 08:10:42 | <koz_> | Also, do we even have Haskell librar{y,ies} for sparse matrices? |
| 08:10:58 | <jle`> | koz_: i use Map (a,a) heh |
| 08:11:05 | <iqubic> | Erm... I mean, is this a Letters Set thing? |
| 08:11:07 | <jle`> | but hmatrix might expose one |
| 08:13:20 | <koz_> | jle`: Not as far as I can tell. |
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| 08:14:46 | <jle`> | koz_: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hmatrix-0.20.1/docs/Numeric-LinearAlgebra-Data.html#v:mkSparse |
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| 08:15:12 | <koz_> | Ah, never mind then, guess it does exist. |
| 08:15:52 | <jle`> | but it's not really usable i think...it's mostly internal/for testing |
| 08:15:58 | <jle`> | :( |
| 08:17:16 | <koz_> | There's also a range of representations possible for sparse matrices. |
| 08:17:22 | <koz_> | It depends on what you wanna be able to do. |
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| 08:17:46 | <iqubic> | jle`: What is this for? Is it Advent Of Code related? |
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| 08:40:32 | <jle`> | iqubic: yeah it's a byte-backed set |
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| 08:42:29 | <iqubic> | Are you going to be releasing this onto hackage? |
| 08:43:56 | <jle`> | unsure at the moment |
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| 08:54:40 | <Guest40272> | hi |
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| 09:26:28 | <hyiltiz> | anyone with any experience/comment on the roundtrip (-string or -aeson) library? It seems like it is rarely used by any other packages, and mostly remains as an academic exercise, no? |
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| 09:30:09 | <maerwald> | what library? |
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| 10:04:44 | <tomjaguarpaw> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/roundtrip https://hackage.haskell.org/package/roundtrip-aeson and https://hackage.haskell.org/package/roundtrip-string, presumably |
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| 12:07:29 | <nf> | cross-post from #haskell-lens: if i have a getter and a setter for Set ( folded and sets Set.map respectively), can i turn them into a single "thing" that i can use (^..) and (%~) on? (preferably using microlens) |
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| 12:11:03 | <kuribas> | nf: you want to traverse the Set? |
| 12:11:42 | <nf> | i don't know |
| 12:11:51 | <nf> | i want to combine these two actions into one "thing" |
| 12:12:00 | <nf> | is that a traversal? is there something intermediate? |
| 12:13:02 | <kuribas> | not sure that satisfies the lens laws... |
| 12:14:45 | <kuribas> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-4.16/docs/Data-Set-Lens.html |
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| 12:15:59 | <kuribas> | it looks like setmapped is what you want |
| 12:16:25 | <nf> | that's only the setter part, not the getter |
| 12:16:32 | <nf> | "Sadly, you can't create a valid Traversal for a Set" |
| 12:16:43 | <kuribas> | indeed |
| 12:17:00 | nf | checks the Traversal laws |
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| 12:18:00 | <nf> | i guess the issue is the lack of an Ord constraint |
| 12:18:14 | <nf> | but i'm working with a single known type so maybe i can circumvent that |
| 12:18:26 | <kuribas> | no, the issue is that the set can shrink when mapping it. |
| 12:18:47 | <kuribas> | you can make an unlawful traversal though... |
| 12:20:04 | <nf> | ooh and that violates the second law because some effects could be executed less times than required? i think i get it |
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| 12:28:57 | <kuribas> | "The laws for a Traversal t follow from the laws for Traversable as stated in "The Essence of the Iterator Pattern"." |
| 12:29:04 | <kuribas> | fmap (t f) . t g ≡ getCompose . t (Compose . fmap f . g) |
| 12:29:13 | <kuribas> | "One consequence of this requirement is that a Traversal needs to leave the same number of elements as a candidate for subsequent Traversal that it started with. Another testament to the strength of these laws is that the caveat expressed in section 5.5 of the "Essence of the Iterator Pattern" about exotic Traversable instances that traverse the same entry multiple times was actually already ruled out by the second law |
| 12:29:13 | <kuribas> | paper!" |
| 12:29:39 | <kuribas> | http://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-4.19.2/docs/Control-Lens-Traversal.html |
| 12:31:36 | <nf> | i just read https://artyom.me/lens-over-tea-2#traversal-laws, i'll read that now |
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| 12:43:48 | <nf> | is this proved somewhere? that the 5.5 caveat was already excluded by the second law? |
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| 12:47:17 | <nf> | i guess if i don't care about being lawful i can always do fmap Set.fromList . traverse f . Set.toList |
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| 12:52:26 | <kuribas> | yes |
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| 13:48:54 | <dminuoso> | Mmm. Bidrectional pattern synonyms or prisms... |
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| 13:49:22 | <dminuoso> | Seems like prisms are just more potent since you parametrize your code over arbitrary prisms. |
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| 13:49:39 | <dminuoso> | You *can |
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| 13:51:38 | <[exa]> | prisms! |
| 13:51:42 | <__monty__> | Is there another name for `concatWith :: (a -> a -> a) -> t a -> a` as a generalisation of mconcat? |
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| 13:52:46 | <__monty__> | Oh, that's just foldr1, isn't it? |
| 13:53:52 | <dminuoso> | Not quite |
| 13:54:04 | <dminuoso> | foldr is the generalization |
| 13:54:17 | <dminuoso> | With mconcat you have the implicit argument of foldr already |
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| 13:54:41 | <dminuoso> | So a true generalizatoin of mconcat would be `concatWith :: (a -> a -> a) -> a -> t a -> a` |
| 13:54:43 | <dminuoso> | % :t foldr |
| 13:54:43 | <yahb> | dminuoso: Foldable t => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> t a -> b |
| 13:55:06 | <dminuoso> | (because what does mconcat do on an empty list?) |
| 13:55:07 | <zangi> | > map (+1) [1..10] |
| 13:55:09 | <lambdabot> | [2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11] |
| 13:55:17 | <zangi> | @ |
| 13:55:27 | <zangi> | @help |
| 13:55:27 | <lambdabot> | help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands |
| 13:55:33 | <dminuoso> | [exa]: Yeah Im thinking prisms too. |
| 13:55:36 | <zangi> | @list |
| 13:55:36 | <lambdabot> | What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas. |
| 13:55:46 | <zangi> | @help list |
| 13:55:47 | <lambdabot> | list [module|command]. Show commands for [module] or the module providing [command]. |
| 13:55:47 | <__monty__> | dminuoso: Yep, you're right, I did realize that when writing it. Partiality is why I usually pretend foldr1 doesn't exist. |
| 13:55:56 | <zangi> | list |
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| 13:56:09 | <dminuoso> | zangi: You can chat with lambdabot in a private message/query |
| 13:56:17 | <dminuoso> | For experimentation |
| 13:56:40 | <zangi> | dminuoso: how? I'm new to irc |
| 13:56:52 | <dminuoso> | zangi: Which IRC client do you use? |
| 13:56:59 | <zangi> | weechat |
| 13:57:01 | <xsperry> | try /query lambdabot |
| 13:57:57 | <__monty__> | dminuoso: In this case though I need a different base case for an empty list than a full list, `[] -> S.empty; as -> foldr1 S.intersect as` |
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| 13:59:04 | <dminuoso> | __monty__: That's no longer mconcat then. |
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| 14:01:02 | <__monty__> | Yeah, my mistaken reasoning was "Hmm, I want to mconcat this list of Sets with intersection." |
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| 14:03:33 | <toast52> | Hey I'm a long time stack user but in my new setup I'm trying out ghcup + cabal |
| 14:03:38 | <ephemient> | https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/libraries/2020-December/030951.html |
| 14:04:08 | <toast52> | I'm not sure how to do things with the cabal new commands |
| 14:04:24 | <merijn> | toast52: Can you be more specific? :) |
| 14:04:48 | <toast52> | with stack you specify src directory where all your modules go, and to add dependencies just edit the package.yaml right? |
| 14:04:55 | <toast52> | Whats the equivalent in cabal |
| 14:05:12 | <toast52> | and should I use the v2 commands, the new commands or just the bare commands? |
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| 14:05:26 | <merijn> | toast52: Do you have cabal-install 3.0 or later? |
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| 14:05:38 | <__monty__> | toast52: For cabal 3.0+ those are all the same commands. |
| 14:05:38 | <toast52> | Yeah I believe I am on 3.2.0.0 |
| 14:05:42 | <merijn> | (probably yes, but best to check) |
| 14:05:54 | <merijn> | toast52: From 3.0 on the commands *are* the v2 versions |
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| 14:06:11 | <ephemient> | if you're using ghc 8.10+, you don't have any choice but cabal 3.2+ anyhow :D |
| 14:06:12 | <merijn> | toast52: v2 is just around for scripts that need to be compatible across multiple cabal versions |
| 14:06:25 | <merijn> | toast52: Anyway, lemme first point you here: https://gist.github.com/merijn/8152d561fb8b011f9313c48d876ceb07 |
| 14:06:34 | <__monty__> | new-* is only around for hysterical raisins, v2-* is an immutable reference so to speak, the others are shorter for interactive use. |
| 14:07:34 | <__monty__> | ephemient: Some important distros don't update GHC all that fast, debian for example. |
| 14:08:06 | <ephemient> | __monty__: toast52 mentioned ghcup so presumably they're not relying on the distro ghc anyhow |
| 14:08:49 | <toast52> | so with cabal-install do we modify the cabal file directly? |
| 14:08:54 | <merijn> | toast52: Yeah |
| 14:09:13 | <ephemient> | you could still use hpack if you want, you just have to run it manually |
| 14:09:14 | <merijn> | You can use "cabal init --interactive --cabal-version=3.2" to create a new one from scratch |
| 14:09:18 | <__monty__> | ephemient: Though since they're migrating from stack they might want to stick to the latest LTS compiler. |
| 14:10:11 | <merijn> | ephemient: But you shouldn't, because hpack is bad :D |
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| 14:12:54 | <toast52> | hmmm. cabal install is used to install libraries or executables globally right |
| 14:13:09 | <merijn> | toast52: tbh, only executables |
| 14:13:18 | <toast52> | do nix style builds share libs? |
| 14:13:31 | <merijn> | toast52: Yes, when possible |
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| 14:14:42 | <merijn> | toast52: Basically, there's a single global store (in ~/.cabal/store/ghc-version) and every library that gets installed gets tagged with a hash of its version, flags, config and transitive dependencies and installed there. If two packages/projects/whatever use the exact same configuration they will reuse the existing install. |
| 14:15:09 | <merijn> | toast52: So you can have, essentially, infinitely many different versions/configurations of any package without conflicts |
| 14:16:56 | <toast52> | Ok I think I more or less get it. Last question: In stack we just declare the src directory and have as many modules inside as we want. But it appears in a cabal file each module must be declared in other-modules? |
| 14:17:42 | <ephemient> | https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/5343 |
| 14:18:15 | <merijn> | toast52: For libraries You've got "exposed-modules" these are what other packages can access and "other-modules" (these are internal). For executable you have Main and "other-modules" |
| 14:18:30 | <merijn> | ephemient: It's not happening |
| 14:18:48 | <ephemient> | right, I think there's decent justification in the linked issue |
| 14:20:04 | <merijn> | Like, I get why people find it annoying to manually list modules. But sometimes you gotta trade off immediate convenience for future sanity. But that's apparently a hard thing to accept for many people :p |
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| 14:21:15 | <ephemient> | well, pretty much the only haskell code I work on these days is for advent of code, and I only need to keep it running for a month. so I have sympathy for that too |
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| 14:23:02 | <merijn> | ephemient: tbh, I also feel people *massively* overstate how annoying it actually is |
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| 14:25:17 | <merijn> | ephemient: My biggest project is about 110 files/modules big, but it's not like you're writing those out every day. You start with a handful and incrementally add a few every few days or something. And if you important existing code you can just quickly sed it in once. In practice it's just not that big a deal |
| 14:26:01 | <ephemient> | it might also be a matter of what other systems people came from |
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| 14:26:43 | <ephemient> | build systems for C/C++ tend to require being explicit, and Rust's modules are also completely explicit, but Java and JS are typically always automatic discovery |
| 14:26:57 | <merijn> | ephemient: A lot of systems do, in fact, go for immediate convenience over long term sanity, which is why Python is on their, like, 15th package manager and it's *still* a pain :p |
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| 14:37:38 | <toast52> | But specifying the src directory is still pretty explicit no? |
| 14:38:27 | <toast52> | In fact Haskell's unqualified imports by default are a pretty good example why implicit is bad imo |
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| 14:39:42 | <merijn> | toast52: There's actually a better explanation why not to do that here: https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/7016#issuecomment-678609993 |
| 14:40:26 | <toast52> | ahhh. That's true. I guess thats the point of something like hpack |
| 14:40:46 | <toast52> | so the reference cabal file is still there |
| 14:41:01 | <toast52> | while its painless to add modules |
| 14:41:30 | <toast52> | not that adding a line to the cabal file is a pain really. I guess I'm just unused |
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| 14:43:09 | <toast52> | its just my prior experience telling me that these config files are usually not manually edited but handled by the CLI tool |
| 14:43:22 | <merijn> | toast52: As phadej points out in the issues, he's not opposed to a "cabal update-modules" command which dynamically updates the list in the cabal file explicitly (which is sorta what "cabal init" already does) |
| 14:43:56 | <merijn> | But the cabal codebase is...kinda legacy, so such command isn't trivial to implement :) |
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| 14:45:38 | <merijn> | The basic tension point is that for *developers* it's easy to have everything automatic and never have to do everything. But for *packaging*, especially long term archiving and distribution on many systems having everything *explicit* (locations, modules, flags, options, etc.) makes live much easier |
| 14:46:33 | <merijn> | If you look at for example Python, Ruby, JS, etc. developing is easy, but packaging is such a nightmare that the "normal" default way to do it now is "ship an entire docker container, because we have no clue which files need to be packaged" |
| 14:47:03 | <dcoutts> | merijn: btw, I was looking at the Cabal lib codebase last night. It's surprisingly clean. Oleg, Mikhail and others have done a great job there. |
| 14:47:12 | <toast52> | Yeah I get that |
| 14:47:36 | <merijn> | dcoutts: It's getting better, for sure. But it has quite a road to go :p |
| 14:48:07 | <toast52> | Maybe I'm clueless here but my impression was that that's what lock files are for |
| 14:48:19 | <merijn> | The problem is we only have one Oleg and one hvr to help people get up to speed :) |
| 14:48:27 | <dcoutts> | I think one of the hard things is going to be ditching legacy features, like migrating away from build-type Custom. |
| 14:48:33 | <hpc> | arguably, for developers it's easier to be explicit too - i am constantly running into issues where i am unable to build working git-cloned code |
| 14:48:35 | <merijn> | Which bottlenecks the influx of people helping :) |
| 14:48:41 | <merijn> | hpc: Sure |
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| 14:48:54 | <merijn> | hpc: But it's hard getting that through their skulls ;) |
| 14:48:55 | <dcoutts> | And people kicked up quite a stink when Oleg wanted to remove the cabal sandbox feature (that's subsumed by the v2 features) |
| 14:49:53 | <merijn> | dcoutts: Well, the problem is that until the environment stuff is finished and gives people a nice way to install libs into a semi-global environment there's some workflows underserved and cabal sandbox + v1 could be used to deal with that |
| 14:50:30 | <merijn> | dcoutts: Lots of beginners want to "just install quickcheck and play in ghci" and that is currently, unfortunately, rather cumbersome |
| 14:50:51 | <dcoutts> | fair enough, but that's what we have to push on to be able to reduce complexity |
| 14:50:57 | <merijn> | But yeah, I think for "real" work v2 completely obsoletes sandboxes |
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| 14:51:25 | <merijn> | dcoutts: Sure, I'm not disagreeing with the choice nor disparage the minor miracles Oleg is achieving :) |
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| 14:51:57 | <merijn> | dcoutts: It's just unfortunate to not have a good story for beginners wanting to play in ghci |
| 14:52:19 | <hpc> | sudo apt install libghc-quickcheck2-dev # :D |
| 14:52:28 | <dcoutts> | indeed, and the v2 design is intended to be able to cover those use cases too |
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| 14:53:14 | <merijn> | dcoutts: I mean, you're preaching to the choir with me, I dropped sandboxes and all my hdevtools based editor tooling back in 2016 just so I could use v2-build :p |
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| 14:53:32 | <merijn> | And only this year with ghcide has my editor started recovering :p |
| 14:53:46 | <dcoutts> | :-) |
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| 14:54:19 | <toast52> | Honestly I had no problems in the past simply installing ghc to use ghci, nor simply "upgrading" to stack and using stack repl |
| 14:54:27 | <toast52> | I would say it is pretty easy to get started |
| 14:55:10 | <merijn> | toast52: Yeah, but with v2 there isn't a super good story for "globally install this library to play with" the easiest (implemented) workflow is "just define a cabal package and use that" |
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| 14:56:03 | <merijn> | Which isn't too bad, almost anything with more than 2 modules or any dependencies should have a cabal file anyway, but it's not great for beginners who know feel like they first need to learn cabal-install before they can get to the fun coding |
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| 15:03:37 | <adamCS> | Related: Even as a somewhat experienced coder, the overhead of new cabal-file, etc. often leads me to jam vaguely-related-things into an existing library until it's obviously silly and then split it out, rather than start it on its own. Which is my problem, I know, but I would love an easier path for that too. Also not complaining! Cabal has come so far! |
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| 15:04:01 | <merijn> | adamCS: to be fair, that doesn't sound necessarily as a bad thing |
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| 15:06:55 | <adamCS> | merjin: Sometimes. But it's often sub-optimal, especially since by the time I realize I need/ought to split it out, I'm often no longer as immersed in it and it also makes one less disciplined about keeping dependencies down, etc. I guess if I had good practice about a couple more things it might all make me less grumpy. |
| 15:07:02 | <adamCS> | merijn: ^ |
| 15:07:04 | <adamCS> | sorry |
| 15:08:10 | <merijn> | adamCS: Well, if you're no longer as immersed in it nor planning to reuse it, is there really any point in cleaning it up/splitting it off? |
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| 15:09:28 | <merijn> | Like, that just sounds like "in retrospect I am not quite happy with my final choice of architecture", but if the code is abandonned then that's just "I have progressed and learned" rather than something that actually needs to be cleaned up? :) |
| 15:10:38 | <merijn> | In the past decade I've only split off and packaged, like, 4 packages. 3 of which are only a single module. |
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| 15:11:03 | <merijn> | No point in packaging things unless you actually plan to reuse them :p |
| 15:11:04 | <adamCS> | merijn: Right. But the case I run across is not-immersed but often-using. So I maybe want to put on hackage or just keep cleaner boundaries and think harder about abstractions. But now it's sort of lazily intertwined. So the energy required to get it right is higher than it would've been if I'd kept it clean from the jump. But you may be right, that the cost is recouped over all the times that code ends up abandoned. |
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| 15:12:47 | <adamCS> | merijn: Yeah. Perhaps what I am saying is that I wish the new-library route was just easy enough to inspire me to be a more disciplined coder in the first place. Which I stand by! But am also slightly ashamed of. Sigh. |
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| 15:13:15 | <merijn> | adamCS: I mean, you can now split off into a separate library in the same package as a sort of intermediate step! |
| 15:13:54 | <adamCS> | merijn: Yes! I haven't tried that yet but it might be the ticket. |
| 15:14:13 | <merijn> | adamCS: You can have multiple (internal) libraries in a package in more recent cabal-install's, so you can "split it off, while still keeping it in", which makes splitting it off into a proper package easier |
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| 15:15:52 | <adamCS> | merijn: Yeah. I have a good test case for that which is approaching the, gosh why is this in the same place as everything else, stage. Maybe I will try an in-package split to learn how. Thanks! |
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| 15:57:01 | <zincy__> | What are the main advantages of separating pure from impure code? In Haskell this really means monadic vs non-monadic right as opposed to pure/impure? Pure code is easier to reason about and easier to test, is there anything else? |
| 15:57:25 | <dminuoso> | That's it, pretty much. |
| 15:57:34 | <merijn> | zincy__: Nitpick: There is no impure code in Haskell (ignoring unsafe*), that's the entire point of having IO in the first place |
| 15:58:04 | <merijn> | People like to say "impure" when they mean "IO based", but IO *isn't* impure, that's the entire point |
| 15:58:19 | <dminuoso> | zincy__: Equational reasoning is priceless, it happens in all of our heads constantly. |
| 15:58:29 | <dminuoso> | Even in yours. |
| 15:58:36 | <dminuoso> | It might be as simple as |
| 15:58:55 | <merijn> | Equational reasoning is great, and the entire benefit of having IO as type is that it doesn't break purity and just allows you to keep equational reasoning |
| 15:59:30 | <dminuoso> | "transforming `f x y (g a b) (g a b)` into `let g' = g a b in f x y g' g'` is legitimate because of the properties of haskell |
| 15:59:52 | <dminuoso> | Its little things of refactoring you probably do every day already |
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| 16:01:37 | <zincy__> | merijn: Yeah I am aware of this nitpick :) |
| 16:01:47 | <merijn> | zincy__: It's an important one, though :) |
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| 16:02:01 | <riko> | What did the "makers of Haskell" think of allowing such mutually recursive definitions? |
| 16:02:05 | <riko> | f = g |
| 16:02:07 | <zincy__> | I was wondering do people mean IO or monadic code in general when they say "impure"? |
| 16:02:09 | <riko> | g = f |
| 16:02:16 | <zincy__> | In fact screw what people say |
| 16:02:22 | <merijn> | riko: I mean you can even skip a step there |
| 16:02:24 | <dminuoso> | riko: it's things like `repeat` |
| 16:02:30 | <merijn> | > let f = f in f |
| 16:02:33 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: <<loop>> |
| 16:02:49 | <merijn> | riko: The reason to allow that is because you can do incredibly useful things like: |
| 16:02:51 | <dminuoso> | riko: f = g; g = f is allowed just because it wouldnt make sense to forbid it, and detecting when to forbid is is impossible in the general case |
| 16:02:54 | <dminuoso> | (because halting problem) |
| 16:02:55 | <merijn> | > let ones = 1 : ones in ones |
| 16:02:57 | <lambdabot> | [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1... |
| 16:03:08 | <zincy__> | We should strive to separate effectful (monadic) code from non-effectful (non monadic) code right? |
| 16:03:13 | <riko> | when I query the type, I get f :: t |
| 16:03:14 | <riko> | and in GHCi the call does not terminate. very strange: D |
| 16:03:29 | <merijn> | zincy__: meh |
| 16:03:39 | <merijn> | zincy__: Not really, imo |
| 16:03:51 | <zincy__> | Ok what if you specialise that argument to IO |
| 16:03:56 | <merijn> | zincy__: https://twitter.com/k0001/status/1295846402648682496 :) |
| 16:03:58 | <zincy__> | Separate IO from non IO |
| 16:04:31 | <merijn> | zincy__: Separating IO from non-IO is generally good. But I feel many beginners over value it, to the point where it harms their productivity |
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| 16:05:07 | <merijn> | Writing Haskell with IO everywhere >> getting stuck unable to anything using Haskell :) |
| 16:05:14 | <zincy__> | This begins to become a tricky nuanced rule the "pure core/imperative shell" mindset. Since everything is pure |
| 16:05:17 | <zincy__> | I am confused |
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| 16:05:59 | <merijn> | zincy__: I write lots of concurrent/network-y/file-y/spawning other process-y code. It has IO everywhere and it's perfectly pleasant to work with |
| 16:06:32 | <zincy__> | So there is no cast iron rule saying thou shalt split IO code from non-io code where possible |
| 16:06:33 | <merijn> | zincy__: My point was simply that "writing code" >> "worrying about how you should be writing code" in terms of both productivity and learning :) |
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| 16:06:48 | <zincy__> | hehe :D |
| 16:07:21 | <merijn> | zincy__: Is overuse of IO "not great"? Sure. But the best way to figure out why/when it sucks is to just write it and find out the hard way |
| 16:07:32 | <zincy__> | Isn't there a big argument for this separation because then you can rely less on mocking? |
| 16:07:38 | <merijn> | Does it help to stop and think if you can split the IO and logic? Sure it does! |
| 16:07:52 | <ephemient> | even when mutability is required, plenty of stuff works fine in ST |
| 16:08:08 | <merijn> | But you know, sometimes you wanna have a feeling of actually *doing* something and doing *something* with IO everywhere is better than *not* doing it :) |
| 16:08:10 | <ephemient> | free tries to get you the best of both worlds, being pure and providing access to IO equivalents |
| 16:08:15 | <merijn> | ephemient: Sure |
| 16:09:09 | <merijn> | ephemient: But so many beginners get paralysed by this idea of "avoiding IO at all costs", I think it's much more helpful in "unstucking" people to help them realise there's a time and place for everything and there's nothing wrong with "imperative Haskell" :) |
| 16:10:09 | <ephemient> | I think it depends on the code |
| 16:10:26 | <ephemient> | if IO is the only monad you're working with, then yeah it's not so bad |
| 16:10:30 | <zincy__> | Code with IO is harder to test |
| 16:10:53 | <merijn> | Same thing I keep saying about converting C people, maybe instead of focussing on "how safe" haskell is, we should be telling them how unsafe you can be if needed! unsafeCoerce, unsafePerformIO, accursedUnutterablePerformIO! So many escape hatches and unlifted types for your high performance needs! |
| 16:10:56 | <zincy__> | So minimising the surface area of IO does make your program easier to test |
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| 16:11:15 | <zincy__> | merijn: I like that argument |
| 16:11:17 | <merijn> | zincy__: Sure, but you find that out quick enough when writing IO heavy code and you will have learned something :) |
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| 16:12:00 | <zincy__> | Right so when it comes to learning just take action is the general motto |
| 16:12:01 | <merijn> | zincy__: Once you "give up" on being pure all the time and start writing code you will quickly find that actually a lot of your code is *still* pure and get a better sense of managing where/when of IO |
| 16:12:02 | <ephemient> | if it's performance you're after, though... haskell IO isn't great |
| 16:12:11 | <merijn> | ephemient: pfft |
| 16:12:13 | <merijn> | ephemient: It's fine |
| 16:12:16 | <ephemient> | it forces sequencing where equivalent code in C would allow for reordering |
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| 16:12:29 | <dolio> | How do you know? |
| 16:12:49 | <merijn> | ephemient: You can almost never reorder C and the place where you can the same can easily happen with IO |
| 16:13:10 | <ephemient> | IORef can not be reordered |
| 16:13:24 | <ephemient> | memory reads/writes, up to memory barriers, can |
| 16:13:34 | <merijn> | ephemient: Neither can accesses in C within a single thread |
| 16:13:44 | <merijn> | And if you're writing threaded C you're already fucked :p |
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| 16:14:38 | <ephemient> | C compiler is allowed to move, repeat, and elide memory access as it wants, as long as single-threaded observed behavior is equivalent |
| 16:14:50 | <ephemient> | e.g. it may reload, or it may lift stores and loads |
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| 16:15:24 | <ephemient> | IORef is forced by IO's sequencing to be... well, sequential |
| 16:15:37 | <merijn> | "kinda" |
| 16:16:03 | <merijn> | Because then you get in the murky waters of CPU guaranteed consistency models :p |
| 16:16:11 | <dolio> | ephemient: This is false. |
| 16:16:36 | <dolio> | It's like saying that C can't reorder things because you typed it into the file in a certain order. |
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| 16:17:29 | <adamCS> | When I started writing Haskell, a lot was in IO. Understanding how to move much of it out was the first time I had an assortment of "aha!" moments about functor and monad. There were more to follow, to be sure. Since IO is comparatively opaque, you really want to get things out of it sometimes so you figure out how when it wasn't necessary in the first place. And that is educational. Or it was for me, anyway. |
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| 16:19:16 | <ephemient> | c <- newIORef 0; forM_ [0..9] $ \i -> readIORef c >>= print |
| 16:19:20 | <ephemient> | vs static int c; for (int i = 0; i < 10; i++) printf("%d\n", c); |
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| 16:32:45 | <lightwave> | Stack newbie question: I tried to 'stack install cabal-install' but got the following error. What do I do to resolve the version conflict/requirement? |
| 16:32:55 | <lightwave> | Error: While constructing the build plan, the following exceptions were encountered: |
| 16:32:56 | <lightwave> | |
| 16:32:56 | <lightwave> | In the dependencies for cabal-install-3.2.0.0: |
| 16:32:56 | <lightwave> | Cabal-3.0.1.0 from stack configuration does not match ==3.2.* (latest matching version is 3.2.1.0) |
| 16:32:57 | <lightwave> | needed since cabal-install is a build target. |
| 16:33:25 | <maerwald> | lightwave: don't install cabal that way |
| 16:33:36 | <maerwald> | download the binary or use ghcup |
| 16:34:23 | <lightwave> | I'm following the "Haskell Tutorial and Cookbook" book... |
| 16:34:43 | <merijn> | lightwave: Well, the book is wrong on how to install things then :) |
| 16:35:17 | <lightwave> | What's the relation between ghcup & stack & cabal? |
| 16:35:19 | <merijn> | lightwave: Basically, Cabal-3.0 is the latest on stackage, afaict, but cabal-install isn't on there. So it blindly tries to build the latest versions (3.2) using stackage's dependencies (3.0) |
| 16:35:32 | <merijn> | lightwave: https://gist.github.com/merijn/8152d561fb8b011f9313c48d876ceb07 |
| 16:35:56 | <merijn> | I should make an "hours of typing I saved myself" counter on that link :> |
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| 16:36:39 | <lightwave> | LOL |
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| 16:41:13 | <fuzzypixelz> | how do I auto-add signatures in haskell-mode, I'm using (doom) emacs |
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| 16:41:40 | <lightwave> | Is ghcup the first thing to install for haskell beginner? Then stack? |
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| 16:42:08 | <merijn> | lightwave: ghcup is a tool for easily installing GHC and cabal-install |
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| 16:42:26 | <lightwave> | I thought stack also install ghc? |
| 16:42:28 | <merijn> | lightwave: stack manages GHC directly and will install it as needed |
| 16:43:05 | <merijn> | If you play to use stack you don't need ghcup or cabal-install. If you plan to use cabal-install, the easiest way to install GHC & cabal-install is probably ghcup |
| 16:43:10 | <merijn> | s/play/plan |
| 16:43:11 | <lightwave> | merijn: So ghcup install ghc & cabal-install globally while stack manage ghc locally at the project level? |
| 16:43:22 | <merijn> | lightwave: Pretty much |
| 16:43:35 | <lightwave> | Can I have both? |
| 16:43:41 | <merijn> | Sure |
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| 16:43:53 | <lightwave> | Will my head explode if they are both install on my laptop? |
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| 16:44:03 | <maerwald> | no |
| 16:44:07 | <ephemient> | stack will cache the ghc etc. it downloads, so if you have multiple stack projects using the same versions it should reuse it |
| 16:44:14 | <maerwald> | they're completely independent |
| 16:44:40 | <lightwave> | Thank you guys for saving my head |
| 16:44:42 | <ephemient> | stack and system ghc won't interact at all, unless you use --system-ghc |
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| 16:55:02 | <fuzzypixelz> | https://stackoverflow.com/questions/8963488/automatically-add-type-signatures-to-top-level-functions suggests I do C-c C-t but that just shows the type signature in the bottom of my buffer |
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| 16:56:21 | <fuzzypixelz> | I want it to be automagically added |
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| 16:56:28 | <lightwave> | Good lord... my ~/.ghcup directory is 4.5G That's much bigger than I expected. |
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| 16:58:10 | <merijn> | lightwave: GHC is about 1-1.5 GB so if you got 2 or 3 GHCs installed that sounds about right |
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| 16:58:39 | <lightwave> | Only has 8.8.4 installed. |
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| 16:59:22 | <merijn> | hmm, "du -d 1 -h" inside that directory to see where all the space is going ;) |
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| 17:02:38 | <lightwave> | I think majority of the space were taken up by various verions of haskell-language-server |
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| 17:03:08 | <merijn> | ah, possibly |
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| 17:03:57 | <lightwave> | Kind of weird how it install all the versions even though I only have ghc v8.8.4 installed. |
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| 17:11:53 | <maerwald> | if you're concerned about disk space, haskell will not be for you :p |
| 17:12:12 | <maerwald> | wait until you actually build a project |
| 17:12:17 | <merijn> | maerwald: It's really not that bad, tbh |
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| 17:12:58 | <maerwald> | merijn: it is. I installed one project with stack and my .stack is 4.4 GB :) |
| 17:13:02 | <merijn> | "ooh...GHC is so massive...it's one whole GB!", meanwhile my stripped minimal clang++ install is freaking 1.9 GB. The one I had to build from source is 5 GB |
| 17:13:13 | <maerwald> | I installed *several* projects with cargo and .cargo is 418mb |
| 17:13:27 | <merijn> | But people install clang/LLVM via their package manager and don't see it's size |
| 17:14:52 | <lightwave> | I told my wife that I need a bigger Macbook under the christmas tree... She's pretending she didn't hear me. LOL |
| 17:15:26 | <maerwald> | yeah, I just got a thinkpad X1 extreme, so I can do haskell stuff on my laptopt without crying |
| 17:15:45 | <maerwald> | 32gb is minimum IMO |
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| 17:16:04 | <merijn> | It's 2020, what are you doing without a 1 TB SSD in your laptop? >.> |
| 17:16:06 | <maerwald> | unfortunately, you can't upgrade macbooks |
| 17:16:08 | <lightwave> | I suspect I'd still cry. I'm never satisify with my new toy. |
| 17:16:15 | <maerwald> | merijn: lol, I have that one too |
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| 17:16:37 | <lightwave> | I have 1TB on my MBP... but it's a nice excuse to buy a new one. LOL |
| 17:16:44 | <maerwald> | X1 extreme is in the same price range as macbook, but I can upgrade the ram... so why would I |
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| 17:17:29 | <lightwave> | TBH, I never find myself needing to upgrade RAM in my dev machines. |
| 17:18:56 | <maerwald> | ok, start haskell-language-server |
| 17:19:40 | <maerwald> | also, firefox decided to run an entire OS per tab, so |
| 17:19:50 | <lightwave> | It can't be worse than the LSP for typescript... loller_ |
| 17:20:01 | <lightwave> | s/loller_/LOL |
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| 17:21:01 | <maerwald> | and then run a few electron apps |
| 17:21:31 | <maerwald> | your gtk theme leaks memory and `rg` blows up the rest |
| 17:21:50 | <maerwald> | (yeah, rg isn't linear in memory) |
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| 17:23:01 | <maerwald> | oh, I forgot... make sure to use coc.nvim, because you want to run a few million lines of javascript inside your editor |
| 17:23:04 | <lightwave> | Chrome (any chromium browsers) & node are the worst on my bx. |
| 17:23:13 | <dminuoso> | 18:19:45 maerwald | [17:16:06] unfortunately, you can't upgrade macbooks |
| 17:23:31 | <dminuoso> | It's a well known fact that SSDs are non-upgradeable. It's physics |
| 17:23:33 | <dminuoso> | Physics of money. |
| 17:23:37 | <loller_> | lightwave: lol |
| 17:23:39 | <loller_> | XD |
| 17:23:44 | <maerwald> | dminuoso: loller_ |
| 17:24:14 | <lightwave> | dminuoso: LOL |
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| 17:25:56 | <lightwave> | The Apple M1 chip is onto something. No longer is my lap getting BBQ by the Intel chip. I'm playing with one on loan to me from my wife's company. |
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| 17:30:45 | <Kronic> | Hey there, I´m a little bit confused when it comes to parsers. I understand the concept, and I think it is something that given enough time, I could understand well, but what I really don´t get outright is which library to start with. I seemed to be spoiled for choice. Is it okay to just come to terms with parsec at first? |
| 17:31:03 | <dminuoso> | Kronic: Megaparsec is a safe default. |
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| 17:31:09 | <dminuoso> | Parsec is dated and not a good starting place IMO. |
| 17:31:22 | <dminuoso> | (There's also attparsec to consider if you're dealing with binary data rather) |
| 17:31:44 | <dminuoso> | But if you just want a "give me a single library damnit", then look no further than megaparsec. |
| 17:32:12 | <koz_> | Megaparsec also has an extensive tutorial. |
| 17:32:18 | <Kronic> | Ah thank you, that makes sense, I noticed the documentation for that one seemed a little better (I only took a glance really, so I could be wrong!). I will get working on that |
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| 17:33:42 | <dminuoso> | Kronic: Another library to keep in mind that augments megaparsec nicely is parser-combinators. |
| 17:34:37 | <dminuoso> | (Im not actually sure how much overlap there is with megaparsec) |
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| 17:43:56 | <cads> | hey all, anyone here use haskell to make python libraries before? What did you use? would you say it was pretty hellish, or that it was significantly (and surprisingly) less than hellish? |
| 17:45:02 | <cads> | I see missingpy exists, but that nobody has touched it in 8 years. So I don't think that's the current path for embedding haskell into python |
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| 17:46:42 | <cads> | probably haskell can publish to some standard FFI technology, and python can import those libraries - my issue seems to be that I don't know what those techs are called, and so few people are writing about it that I can't easily google search it |
| 17:47:27 | <cads> | https://wiki.haskell.org/Applications_and_libraries/Interfacing_other_languages just found |
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| 17:50:28 | <jackhill> | cads: I've seen some good posts on crating a c shared library/calling haskell form c in the past, but I can't really find those now. I turned this up: https://wiki.haskell.org/Calling_Haskell_from_C |
| 17:51:38 | <jackhill> | I had to give up on my project because I didn't really knwo C well enough :/ I now even less about how Python integrates with C libraries or if there is a better way of integrating Haskell and Python. Maybe that's enough to get you started though. |
| 17:51:49 | <cads> | looks like one path (still terrifyingly complex) is to generate a C interface with c2hs, and then use python's CTYPES to reconstitute any facilities that might be "lost in translation" |
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| 17:53:50 | <cads> | jackhill, thanks, I think doing C hax might be the best shortcut at this time |
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| 17:55:22 | <cads> | Here is the story for writing a python module backed by rust: https://mycognosist.github.io/tutorial-rust-python-lib.html |
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| 17:57:52 | <jackhill> | cool |
| 17:57:58 | <cads> | that depends on a rust crate called cpython. This appears to wrap python objects in a rustic interface, so that rust code can receive and return them http://dgrunwald.github.io/rust-cpython/doc/cpython/ |
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| 17:59:40 | <cads> | perhaps I need a haskell value that represents a python objects. I am rather vague about the machinery that rust.cpython uses to actually produce python modules out of that code, but I'll keep reading. |
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| 18:18:21 | <merijn> | cads: Ok, so, pragmatic solution |
| 18:18:39 | <merijn> | cads: Do what I did and just spawn a python subprocess using whatever library you need |
| 18:19:31 | <merijn> | cads: Directly calling python means basically exporting your python interface to C first and then calling the C interface from Haskell's FFI, as C is the only well defined ABI and all other languages pretty much only support FFI to C |
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| 18:20:03 | <merijn> | Which, honestly, all sounds like much more work than "write a minimal Python script and call that" |
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| 18:22:14 | <koz_> | merijn: Oof, yeah, that sounds... not fun. |
| 18:22:31 | <koz_> | Definitely not the sort of thing you wanna do by hand. |
| 18:22:38 | <koz_> | . o O (inline-python?) |
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| 18:23:31 | <jollygood2> | wasn't there something like this already? |
| 18:23:57 | <jollygood2> | (1, 2) -> (2, 1) |
| 18:24:20 | <koz_> | :t swap |
| 18:24:22 | <lambdabot> | (a, b) -> (b, a) |
| 18:24:33 | <jollygood2> | of course :). thanks |
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| 18:40:59 | <cads> | merijn, I want the opposite - build some heavy number crunching code in haskell, give python users an easy to use interface |
| 18:41:21 | <merijn> | cads: That's about as hard as calling C from python |
| 18:41:25 | → | juuandyy joins (~juuandyy@90.166.144.65) |
| 18:41:38 | <cads> | know anyone who wants to make it easier? |
| 18:41:41 | <merijn> | cads: Basically, exposing Haskell functions to C is fairly trivial |
| 18:42:01 | <merijn> | So the most annoying/hard part is getting python to call those "C" functions |
| 18:42:11 | <xerox_> | @index swap |
| 18:42:12 | <lambdabot> | Data.Tuple |
| 18:42:45 | <xerox_> | not a huge package |
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| 18:43:32 | <cads> | merijn, right - in the C part of python, there is a special way of handling python objects - so the python part of the code can call those C functions as if they're python methods, in the sense that they return python objects |
| 18:44:37 | <cads> | but it still requires some pretty subtle magic to take those c functions and wrap the pythonobject C-type into an actual, live, python object |
| 18:45:12 | <cads> | real "breathing life into clay" kinda stuff, and I bet that the rust cpython crate does the same thing |
| 18:45:13 | <Rembane> | cads: Can you create an interface using cython? |
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| 18:45:29 | <merijn> | cads: Right, my point was that Haskell functions exported via the FFI are "indistinguishable" from C code from the python side :) |
| 18:45:47 | → | heatsink joins (~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:406f:6a8d:2175:4183) |
| 18:46:25 | <merijn> | cads: So if you wanna call Haskell from Python there's not that much to do, unless you wanna be able to "call back" into python and, tbh, even that is fairly straightforward if you can expose the callbacks as C code |
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| 18:46:53 | <merijn> | cads: so this is more of a "python problem" than a "haskell problem" :) |
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| 18:47:37 | <merijn> | cads: On the Haskell side the only thing you need (besides foreign exporting the Haskell functions) is to make sure you call some wrappers to setup the Haskell RTS before calling code |
| 18:47:38 | <cads> | well, hold on, because what I want is my python to call the haskell C interface and get python objects back. I think I need a python object "boxed type" in haskell land. |
| 18:47:52 | <cads> | oh, I think we just said the same thing |
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| 18:48:06 | <merijn> | I made a minimal-ish example of calling Haskell from C here: https://gist.github.com/merijn/4a0fee2b3a5ef3476aa4 |
| 18:48:29 | <cads> | http://dgrunwald.github.io/rust-cpython/doc/cpython/py_class/index.html |
| 18:48:30 | <Guest_82> | I just tried installing ghcup via the command on the website and get an error on MacOS: https://pastebin.com/f3pWYu71 basically, it hardcodes $HOME as /home/johannd, which doesn't exist and isn't writeable on MacOS. I can't seem to find any bug reports about this. Is it a known problem? |
| 18:49:07 | <cads> | there's the ref for the rust equivalent of what I'd probably need to make this thing a usable tool rather than an unsustainable one time hack |
| 18:49:09 | <merijn> | cads: Right, but wrapping Haskell into python objects should happen on the python/C side of things, not on the Haskell side |
| 18:49:26 | <maerwald> | Guest_82: no, it doesn't hardcode anything, your environment variable HOME points to a non-existing directory |
| 18:49:40 | <maerwald> | or... |
| 18:49:46 | <merijn> | cads: I mean, I guess you could theoretically do it on the Haskell side, but that'll be a pain |
| 18:49:54 | <cads> | merijn, I have two implementations (CPython and Rust.cpython) that do it the other way, so why? |
| 18:49:54 | <maerwald> | "Operation not supported" sounds like some other problem |
| 18:50:11 | <cads> | I don't think it's because these communities intentionally want pain |
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| 18:50:44 | <merijn> | cads: CPython *does* do it on the C side...their entire implementation is "C side" |
| 18:51:00 | <maerwald> | Guest_82: fix your environment variable |
| 18:51:09 | <cads> | maybe I get more control and the python part is much easier to write if I make the haskell code responsible for producing a coherent python object |
| 18:51:22 | <Guest_82> | maerwald `echo $HOME` -> `/Users/johannd` |
| 18:51:35 | <merijn> | cads: A "python object" is just a C data structure with some stuff in it |
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| 18:52:15 | <merijn> | cads: Generally manipulating C data structures is much less painful in *C*. It *can* be done in Haskell, but it's miserable, and there's almost no point if you're going to hand it over to C/Python afterwards |
| 18:52:25 | <cads> | merijn, I'm saying they do it on the C side as in they have built in the hosting language (c), an abstraction of python objects. And I'm saying that doing so in haskell should also be a thing. |
| 18:52:40 | <Guest_82> | maerwald even when I exec `sh`, which is piped to after curl, `echo $HOME` -> `/Users/johannd` |
| 18:52:42 | <merijn> | cads: So you write some C code that turns the Haskell "C" functions into an object and hand that to python |
| 18:52:45 | <geekosaur> | wondering if /etc/passwd (which is legacy on OS X, but tools like git won't know that) has /home/jdahm in it |
| 18:52:58 | <maerwald> | Guest_82: well, it definitely is not hardcoded |
| 18:53:12 | <merijn> | cads: You *can* do it Haskell, but I'm saying you shouldn't, because there is no reason to |
| 18:53:15 | <geekosaur> | the user database probably has the right value in it |
| 18:53:27 | <merijn> | cads: But if you like pain, whatever floats your boat |
| 18:53:32 | <cads> | merijn, I want ppl in haskell land to be explicitly working with a python return type. That way we know when interfaces are expected to touch python, and when they are "pure" |
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| 18:53:50 | <merijn> | cads: Well, that's just going to straight up suck |
| 18:53:51 | <cads> | does that sound like a benefit? |
| 18:53:59 | <cads> | why? |
| 18:54:02 | <merijn> | cads: No, it sounds like massive amounts of pain :) |
| 18:54:07 | <cads> | okay, but why? |
| 18:54:22 | <merijn> | cads: Because it involves lots of operating on C structs from Haskell, which is the most painful part of FFI |
| 18:54:24 | <cads> | why don't you want your types to reflect when a function needs to worry about python, vs when it can just be pure? |
| 18:54:32 | <cads> | I feel that is important documentation |
| 18:55:08 | <cads> | ie, suppose I can have 5 python touching functions (the interfaces), and 20 pure ones (the kernel) |
| 18:55:25 | <cads> | what if I /want/ to enforce that and document that? |
| 18:55:28 | <merijn> | cads: I'd say your Haskell numerical code shouldn't reflect python *at all* it should just operate on integers, arrays and matrices and then wrap that into a high level interface in C that gets passed to python |
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| 18:56:24 | <merijn> | like, why would it matter that those 20 pure functions eventually get called from C/Python? That's irrelevant for what they do |
| 18:56:32 | <cads> | how then will my python code can never inspect an object that the user gives it? I have to break down the types into primitive matrices and tensors, and lose my user's object semantics |
| 18:56:41 | <cads> | I need these things to be python objects |
| 18:56:45 | <merijn> | cads: Oh |
| 18:56:52 | <merijn> | cads: Well...then RIP your sanity |
| 18:56:57 | <cads> | not something that I've temporarily forgotten is a python object |
| 18:57:00 | <cads> | lol |
| 18:57:09 | <cads> | merijn, I don't think it's that bad, because after all, cpython does it |
| 18:57:21 | <merijn> | cads: Because then you've gotta interact with those C structs from python and call functions on them and it will be a big hassle |
| 18:57:30 | <cads> | and cpython code is actually pretty clean to read, for all that it's C and abstracting python objects |
| 18:57:34 | <merijn> | cads: CPython does it from C and all of CPython is C |
| 18:57:44 | <cads> | I think haskell code that abstracts python objects will be if anything nicer than the cpython code |
| 18:57:52 | <merijn> | lol |
| 18:57:53 | <merijn> | no |
| 18:57:54 | <cads> | thought the kernel may have some mind bending insanity in it |
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| 18:58:01 | <cads> | merijn, why? |
| 18:58:10 | <merijn> | Clearly you haven't seen the insanity that C++ objects wrapped in Haskell looks like |
| 18:58:27 | <cads> | why would C be able to wrap python more elegantly than haskell can wrap python? |
| 18:58:34 | <cads> | we're talking about C |
| 18:59:08 | <merijn> | Because it's not wrapping python |
| 18:59:09 | <cads> | I find this highly ironic that C, the anti-abstraction, would be better at providing an abstraction layer than haskell, the language OF abstraction |
| 18:59:24 | <cads> | but hey, I would love that as a joke, so tell me the punchline |
| 18:59:37 | <merijn> | cads: CPython is a python interpreter written in C. It's not "wrapping" python, it just calling directly into interpreter implementation details |
| 18:59:59 | <merijn> | The reason it's "more elegant" is because there's no pretension at wrapping at all |
| 19:00:24 | <merijn> | You don't "wrap" python objects, you just directly call your (C) interpreter implementation details on objects that exist |
| 19:00:24 | <cads> | merijn, I'm not talking about the interpreter, I'm talking about the common library code that is written in C |
| 19:00:40 | <merijn> | cads: Right, but that library code does the same thing |
| 19:00:59 | <cads> | functions absolutely do wrap python objects inside the functions they work on native c types, and then when the function returns, it wraps it in a pythonobject struct |
| 19:01:07 | <merijn> | cads: Your Haskell code will not be wrapping Python either. It will be wrapping the C interpreter bits |
| 19:01:26 | <cads> | Look at the rust library |
| 19:02:09 | <merijn> | I mean, you don't have to take my word for it. God knows most people on the world don't listen to me :) |
| 19:02:13 | <cads> | it wraps the c interpreter bits too (because that's all it is really emitting), but it also wraps a python object type, so that users can actually extend functionality for python objects, like any real library must |
| 19:02:52 | <cads> | merijn, it's just that you're telling me that I don't get to have something I get to take for granted in other languages like rust, because I'd have to work too hard to get it. And the argument is falling flat, yes. |
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| 19:03:17 | <cads> | you see how you're trying to discourage me for no real reason, right? |
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| 19:03:25 | <merijn> | Anyway, either 1) you're misunderstanding what I'm saying, 2) I'm misunderstanding your description what you wanna do |
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| 19:03:39 | <cads> | okay, look at the rust code, and lets discuss it later |
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| 19:18:02 | <dminuoso> | 10:41:21 <cads> merijn, I want the opposite - build some heavy number crunching code in haskell, give python users an easy to use interface |
| 19:18:22 | <dminuoso> | If you want that, perhaps expose your Haskell code as a service to consumer, say over a unix domain socket? |
| 19:18:34 | <cads> | huh, or microservice |
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| 19:18:45 | <dminuoso> | Then you can have a well defined API to program against, without all the idiosyncracies of having to deal with crossing FFI. |
| 19:19:04 | <jollygood2> | I'm writing json using aeson, someone remind me, how can I control the order of fields in the json file? |
| 19:19:23 | <merijn> | Man... |
| 19:19:29 | <cads> | it kind of collapses the richness of the datypes of each repsective language, and I have to reason across a set of json interfaces. That's not so bad at all, acutally |
| 19:19:40 | <cads> | gets rid of a LOT of pain |
| 19:19:44 | <merijn> | You ever read a question and go "well...this sounds like a rabbithole of depressing tech issues.."? :p |
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| 19:19:54 | <cads> | merijn, yes |
| 19:19:56 | <cads> | lol |
| 19:20:11 | <dminuoso> | I mean Haskell and cpython interacting with each other is *not* fun. |
| 19:20:13 | <merijn> | If you need to control order of fields in your JSON file you're already boned |
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| 19:20:52 | <Chousuke> | I can see reasons to do it that aren't altogether insane |
| 19:21:11 | <merijn> | cads: "it collapses the richness of datatypes of each respective language" <- well, yes, this is a fundamental limitation of FFI |
| 19:21:22 | <Chousuke> | you might want to programmatically modify a JSON file without causing too large a diff for example. |
| 19:21:41 | <merijn> | Chousuke: I'm vaguely aware of some...insert adjective here...IBM code that relied on something like that for XML or JSON, so... |
| 19:21:47 | <cads> | so I have to give up the idea that I'll be able to get a python object, and interrogate it in haskell land |
| 19:22:25 | <cads> | that changes how I write my python, because I'm used to passing python objects, and methods doing a number of queries and commands on them via that object's methods |
| 19:22:36 | <merijn> | cads: It's *theoretically* possible, but how would you even expose/use that information without reimplementing the entire python OO interface in Haskell? |
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| 19:23:07 | <dminuoso> | cads: By the way, consider CBOR over JSON if you can still decide on things |
| 19:23:38 | <dminuoso> | Especially if you want to deal with numbers. |
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| 19:24:53 | <yushyin> | cbor++ ;) |
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| 19:26:47 | <cads> | I convert things to toml any time a human has to see them, but I have been looking for a versatile binary wire format, thanks |
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| 19:27:56 | <cads> | Looks like remarhsal can do the Toml <-> Cbor <-> Yaml <-> Json interop (lol @ how we no longer include XML in that list) |
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| 19:28:52 | cads | started encountering Yaml in microservices land, hates it, and is generally much happier /w toml substitutes for confs |
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| 19:29:40 | <cads> | you know, the idea that a haskell entity should be big and bad enough to warrant its own microservice? I don't think I'll have trouble finding applications to fill those shoes |
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| 19:30:39 | <Rembane> | cads: If you really want to fall down the configuration language rabbit hole: https://dhall-lang.org/ |
| 19:31:57 | <cads> | as a haskell <-> python interop layer it doesn't do what I originally wanted it. But it is so much cheaper that I could have my first application /today/. That makes me like it. And that even makes me feel like it saves me from overengineering something that /even I/ could see was going to be miserable |
| 19:32:01 | <michaelh> | I have a list of fields which I want to use to populate a record. The list is obtained from parsing a file, so if some fields are missing, I won't create he record. This is a shortened example of how I solved it: https://pastebin.com/ud39S66b As you can see I pattern match on instances of the `Field` type i a list, which causes a lot of boiler plate. Is there a way to avoid that boiler plate? Is there a better way to do this overall? |
| 19:32:01 | <michaelh> | I'm a Haskell beginner :-) |
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| 19:32:48 | <michaelh> | The fields that I parse can be in any order btw |
| 19:32:56 | <Rembane> | michaelh: Hi! What's the format of the file? |
| 19:33:12 | <merijn> | > (,) <$> Just 2 <*> Just True |
| 19:33:14 | <lambdabot> | Just (2,True) |
| 19:33:18 | <merijn> | > (,) <$> Just 2 <*> Nothing |
| 19:33:20 | <lambdabot> | Nothing |
| 19:33:35 | <merijn> | michaelh: You probably wanna have a look at Applicative and <$> and <*> :) |
| 19:34:01 | <michaelh> | Rembane: Custom format. Looking like this: "abc:123 def:Hello" |
| 19:34:04 | <merijn> | michaelh: Also, oof :) |
| 19:34:10 | <michaelh> | Actually, Advent of code, day 4 |
| 19:34:15 | <merijn> | michaelh: ReadP is notoriously tricking and confusing :) |
| 19:34:44 | <merijn> | michaelh: I'd probably try using parsec/attoparsec/megaparsec instead :) |
| 19:35:18 | <michaelh> | merijn: Sure, I use applicative a bit too, not in this example here though. Will that help me remove all those get... functions? |
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| 19:36:20 | <merijn> | oh, wait, I think I misparsed the bottom function |
| 19:36:20 | <cads> | micheal, it feels like each of those functions should be a pattern matching clause of a larger function |
| 19:36:41 | <merijn> | michaelh: Aren't you missing an fs on each function there? |
| 19:36:58 | <cads> | that might conceptually unify the four get_functions into a getField function, for instance |
| 19:36:59 | <Rembane> | michaelh: I primarily used this combination of functions, but my code has more of a hm... Perl feeling to it: concatMap (map (second tail . span (/= ':')) . words) |
| 19:37:06 | <merijn> | michaelh: You could basically write "Record <$> getAbc fs <*> getDef fs <*> getGhi fs" was my point :) |
| 19:37:12 | <michaelh> | merijn: oh, I totally do. `fs` should go after each one. Sorry about that. |
| 19:37:13 | <cads> | err, three |
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| 19:39:39 | <michaelh> | merijn: Sure! That's neater. But I'll still have all those similar get-functions, that's the one thats making me think perhaps I'm doing this wrong. |
| 19:39:53 | <cads> | oh, the individual functions have meanings, but currently you have them named after the alphabet (AbcDefGhi). How about: getAbc => getInt, getDef => getString, getGhi => getBool |
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| 19:40:37 | <michaelh> | cads: But they all return different types, so how would I combine them into one? |
| 19:40:44 | <cads> | then merijn's code becomes: Record <$> getInt fs <*> getString fs <*> getBool fs -- highly readable |
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| 19:41:06 | <merijn> | michaelh: you could derive Ord for Field and instead of having a list like you have now, use a "Map Field Value" and do lookups, but I suppose that doesn't work with different field types |
| 19:41:35 | <merijn> | michaelh: tbh, the AoC exercise is on the awkward cusp of almost, but not quite, allowing a nice Haskell solution but not being worth the boilerplate |
| 19:41:50 | <michaelh> | cads: Yeah, that was just some bogus names I picked for now. |
| 19:41:52 | <merijn> | michaelh: I just used "Map Field String" and then did validation on the strings directly :p |
| 19:42:14 | Rembane | agrees with merijn |
| 19:42:49 | <cads> | michaelh, oh, right, the composite function would have to return some strange maybe type, then you'd have to handle it. Maybe not the best. I now prefer the "merijn pipe" architecture |
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| 19:44:31 | <cads> | michaelh, after debogonizing + applicative chaining, that is code I would be proud of in my own production |
| 19:44:41 | <michaelh> | Yeah. My starting point was, "I want to pracitice Haskell and at the same time learn to use Text.ParserCombinators.ReadP", while doing AoC. I realize this might give quite a bit of resistance :-) I was also thinking about using, for instance, Map String String, and work with that. But I wanted to try to parse as much as possible. Perhaps not such a great idea |
| 19:45:12 | <merijn> | michaelh: tbh, ReadP is terrible and the problem isn't supper suitable for it, so you're fighting 2 problems at once :p |
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| 19:46:32 | <cads> | merijn, which are lighter parser combinators to use for a problem like this? also interested for my own use |
| 19:46:45 | <merijn> | Light in which sense? |
| 19:46:52 | <cads> | conceptually |
| 19:47:10 | <michaelh> | Okay. Thanks for helping me realize that! :) |
| 19:47:10 | <cads> | and simple easy to write |
| 19:47:18 | <merijn> | attoparsec is probably the smallest/cleanest parser combinator library for simple formats |
| 19:47:44 | <merijn> | michaelh: I can link you my megaparsec solution, but that's of course a massive spoiler :p |
| 19:48:33 | <michaelh> | merijn: Sure, I'd be happy to see that. I've already solved the problem, so I don't need to worry about that. |
| 19:48:52 | cads | wants to see too, also has no qualms /w spoilers |
| 19:48:59 | <merijn> | michaelh: https://github.com/merijn/AdventOfCode2020/blob/master/Day4.hs |
| 19:50:42 | <michaelh> | merijn: Thanks! I'll take closer look in a bit. By the way, now that I understand that fighting ReadP wasn't all my fault, can you recommend any of the Parsec-libraries for a newbie? I just want to get some more general parser combinator experience. |
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| 19:52:31 | <trepanger> | What does "debogonize" mean? |
| 19:52:59 | <glguy> | ReadP would be fine for parsing AoC. All of the AoC formats are simple enough that any choice of parser combinator library is going to be fine. |
| 19:53:17 | <glguy> | Where ReadP falls down is that it doesn't give good error messages, which can be helpful to debug your parser when you write it incorrectly |
| 19:53:20 | <merijn> | michaelh: tbh, the high level design is pretty much identical for all of them, it's the gritty details that differ. Parsec is a bit dated, having symbols conflicting with Prelude (due to predating Applicative/Alternative) and generally not being worked on anymore. Megaparsec is probably the most "industrial" library with the most features, but it's docs are a bit of a mess currently (they do have a bunch |
| 19:53:26 | <merijn> | of tutorial linked from the repo), attoparsec is rather minimalist, but very clear |
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| 19:53:50 | <merijn> | michaelh: The design is so identical, in fact, that the parser-combinators library abstracts tons of functionality for all of them :p |
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| 19:55:55 | <cads> | Rembane, now I'm craving Dhall's semantic hashing. That's pretty fucking snazzy. |
| 19:56:54 | <Rembane> | cads: Muaha! They are indeed. And the types and the grumpy type checker and the syntax and the... it's a lovely language. ^^ |
| 19:57:29 | <Rembane> | cads: And also, it isn't Turing complete by mistake. |
| 19:58:22 | <cads> | any way to banish the curly brackets? That is the main reason I ditched json in favor of toml |
| 19:58:44 | <Rembane> | You can always write a preprocessor. |
| 19:59:12 | <cads> | or I can write a semantic hashing function for toml |
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| 19:59:17 | <Rembane> | Yes. :D |
| 19:59:46 | <cads> | that's a realy killer feature, lol, I could leave the fact that it's executable (which actually scares me shitless) |
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| 20:00:09 | <michaelh> | Alright, thanks again, all of you :) |
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| 20:00:26 | <monochrom> | Do so much hate against curly braces. |
| 20:00:36 | <monochrom> | Pascal bannished curly braces. |
| 20:00:47 | <monochrom> | made you write "begin" and "end" instead. |
| 20:00:54 | <aldum> | pascal did a lot of unsavory things |
| 20:01:27 | <aldum> | to this day I occasionally muck up equality checking in C-style languages |
| 20:01:29 | <trepanger> | curly brace syntax is a hell of a lot easier to parse than whitespace, though |
| 20:01:37 | <cads> | technically toml does you dirty in order to give you a brace free experience. But I won't say how. |
| 20:02:41 | <trepanger> | (easier to write a parser for, I mean) |
| 20:02:41 | <monochrom> | And why so much hate against parentheses too. |
| 20:02:55 | cads | thinks the trend of ppl putting the wellbeing of parsers ahead of humans should end |
| 20:03:11 | <trepanger> | cads: yeah, you have a point |
| 20:03:14 | <monochrom> | COBOL bannishes curly braces, parentheses, and "begin" and "end". In fact, it bannishes all line noises. |
| 20:03:25 | <aldum> | cads: I think I read someone argue this |
| 20:03:36 | <trepanger> | but JSON is mostly for machines |
| 20:03:36 | <monochrom> | You write "multiply x by y into z" instead. It's pure English. No symbols allowed. |
| 20:03:41 | <Rembane> | monochrom: Doesn't COBOL banish almost everything? |
| 20:03:53 | <aldum> | we have two povs here, and we can't ditch human-readability |
| 20:04:01 | <MarcelineVQ> | humans probably aren't as good at reading as they think they are |
| 20:04:07 | <cads> | trepanger, I think it was xml that was mostly for machines - json took over because it was /partially/ for humans ;) |
| 20:04:30 | <cads> | rip xml *touchies fingers to lips, then to sky* |
| 20:04:50 | <trepanger> | haha, xml was a pain to parse for a machine also |
| 20:05:38 | <cads> | also there is no fun canonical way to turn xml into json :( |
| 20:05:49 | <aldum> | human processing takes shortcuts |
| 20:05:55 | <Rembane> | There's no canonical way to turn xml into anything. |
| 20:06:42 | <cads> | well there is, it's just creates lots of extra nodes that you don't want |
| 20:07:03 | <cads> | so then you filter the nodes. Boom, you lost the ability to convert back |
| 20:07:11 | <aldum> | https://eev.ee/blog/2016/12/01/lets-stop-copying-c/#braces-and-semicolons |
| 20:07:32 | <Rembane> | cads: That's quite fun in a derpy way. :) |
| 20:07:44 | <monochrom> | I have much doubt that xml was for machines. A binary format would be for machines. xml is everything but binary. |
| 20:08:02 | <cads> | i think xml was for schemas |
| 20:08:05 | <aldum> | xml was for the enterprise :D |
| 20:08:21 | <cads> | and that, or the same thing honestly |
| 20:09:03 | <monochrom> | Every time you see a syntax design supporting, even optimizing for, "meaningful" identifiers, you know it's designed for humans. |
| 20:09:05 | <trepanger> | I'm not convinced that whitespace *is* more readable in general. Particularly for deeply nested data structures. |
| 20:09:29 | <aldum> | I used to like XML, before I saw better designs, and before I had to do an XSLT/Xpath assignment for a class |
| 20:09:42 | <Chousuke> | I feel like YAML is popular only because JSON doesn't support comments and doesn't support trailing commas in maps and lists. |
| 20:09:46 | <cads> | I think we had a need for a really extensible, self referential, self documenting, and discoverable data format , and I think binary formats weren pretty terrible for that |
| 20:09:59 | <Rembane> | I think LISP would've been a better choice |
| 20:10:26 | <aldum> | Chousuke: then why not json5 or HOCON? |
| 20:10:37 | <Chousuke> | because YAML exists. |
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| 20:10:45 | <Chousuke> | json5 is too late :) |
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| 20:11:03 | <aldum> | well, I like HOCON :) |
| 20:11:17 | <cads> | Chousuke, and toml is popular (or hopefully getting so) basically because it also has comments and trailing commas, but doesn't have self Yaml's brand of referential madness |
| 20:11:20 | MarcelineVQ | lights the candle at the altar of .ini |
| 20:11:29 | <cads> | self-referential madness* even |
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| 20:12:36 | <aldum> | what's the take on dhall around here? |
| 20:13:49 | <monochrom> | Haskell shows that you can allow both curly braces and space layout. |
| 20:13:52 | <dminuoso> | This channel is frequently used for dhall related questions, because apparently it's mostly haskellers that use Dhall? |
| 20:13:59 | <cads> | Chousuke, fwiw, I'm going around my infrastructure religiously converting my yaml into toml and loving every second of it, so imho yaml's days in the sun are also numbered |
| 20:14:02 | <merijn> | monochrom: And absolutely no one will use the braces ;) |
| 20:14:09 | <aldum> | that's why I ask |
| 20:14:17 | <monochrom> | Aww, you forgot SPJ. |
| 20:14:28 | <dminuoso> | cads: cant beat ini for configuration files! |
| 20:14:40 | <monochrom> | Also, I sometimes use them when the space layout rules are against my code structure. |
| 20:15:13 | <dminuoso> | Though lately I've started preferring just environment variables. |
| 20:15:20 | <monochrom> | or rather, s/code/conceptual/ |
| 20:15:36 | <cads> | dminuoso, toml manages to, because it lets you create entries into deeply nested lists, where ini would have nothing for you |
| 20:15:51 | <aldum> | I did some (rudimentary) toml today, it was just like ini |
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| 20:15:54 | <monochrom> | dminuoso: Wait, how much information do you pack into those poor environment variables? :) |
| 20:15:54 | <dminuoso> | cads: Sure, by that I meant to include toml since I consider it an ini-style language |
| 20:15:59 | <dminuoso> | monochrom: A lot. |
| 20:16:05 | <Chousuke> | cads: I'm not convinced about toml either. It seems weird in its own way, too |
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| 20:16:32 | <Chousuke> | I prefer software that doesn't need configuration, or if it does, as little of it as possible :P |
| 20:16:34 | <monochrom> | OK I guess if TERMCAP can do it then you can do it too. |
| 20:16:52 | <cads> | Chousuke, I have some reservations, yes - but fewer than with yaml, json and xml - I can say I am "happy" with my metadata format today, insofar as it's humanly possible to be happy with such |
| 20:16:52 | <monochrom> | Do you need to use an IDE to edit the stuff you put in your env variables? :) |
| 20:17:06 | <dminuoso> | monochrom: Much of our haskell software is deployed in docker, so environment variables fit well into the tooling. |
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| 20:17:29 | <dminuoso> | And honestly I had all configuration file formats with a passion. Some just less than others like ini-styles (including toml) |
| 20:17:35 | <cads> | Chousuke, I prefer software that I can bill customers for, and those usually have configurations ;) |
| 20:17:41 | <Chousuke> | environment variables are kind of so-so because they're difficult to discover |
| 20:17:44 | <dminuoso> | I'd love to actually bake configuration into the software (which is ideal).. |
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| 20:18:04 | <monochrom> | OK I guess you can create many, many env vars. |
| 20:18:08 | <dminuoso> | Yes. |
| 20:18:26 | <dminuoso> | We configure our software with .env files that are essentially just lines of `FOO=bar` |
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| 20:18:33 | <Chousuke> | cads: most software requires configuration, but there's tons of software that requires you to configure things that you just shouldn't need to ever touch. |
| 20:18:46 | <Chousuke> | because they have either no defaults, or insane ones. |
| 20:18:47 | <monochrom> | I was nerdily thinking "use just one env var but you take a 1000-line Haskell source code and compress it and that's the value of the env var" |
| 20:18:52 | <dminuoso> | It's far from ideal, but at the very least we dont drag a pile of dependency nonsense just to parse a damn config file |
| 20:19:00 | <dminuoso> | oh haha |
| 20:20:09 | <Chousuke> | so then you try to get the software running but you're missing some frobnicateWidgets = 16 from the configuration that must be exactly 16 because it defaults to 8 but that doesn't actually work |
| 20:21:18 | <cads> | dminuoso, I like to have one config file that parses into a conf object that I can work with like conf.client.id and conf.server.ip and so on |
| 20:21:39 | <Chousuke> | or you have software that has 700 optional modules and enables 300 of them by default but the defaults are insane and you really just need 5 modules |
| 20:21:43 | <cads> | but that's basically what ini does |
| 20:22:12 | <dminuoso> | Chousuke: We've really played with the idea of putting *all* configuration into source code. |
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| 20:22:22 | <dminuoso> | Except for secrets. |
| 20:22:54 | <Chousuke> | dminuoso: Have you ever used Clear Linux? They basically made a goal to make /etc empty by default. |
| 20:23:10 | <dminuoso> | yeah |
| 20:23:17 | <dminuoso> | well, not used but heard of it |
| 20:23:20 | <MarcelineVQ> | ~/etc/... |
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| 20:23:53 | <Chousuke> | it's not really wrong to have configuration files since of course you need to configure things like what IPs a service will listen on etc, but a lot of the defaults can be compiled in |
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| 20:24:00 | <cads> | Chousuke, I've recently run into a similar phenomenon auditing my /etc in alpine linux. I got to the etc/-groups and etc/groups files and lost it, because I had groups for software systems from the 80s that will NEVER run on my system |
| 20:24:07 | <Chousuke> | or should at least be read from static files somewhere that don't change. |
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| 20:24:46 | <cads> | I get that the dead configuration isn't causing any pain in production, but it sure does make it hard to audit the configuration for correctness |
| 20:24:49 | <Chousuke> | cads: lots of those groups are probably standardized in POSIX or something :ÖP |
| 20:24:55 | <cads> | yeah, they were |
| 20:25:19 | <dminuoso> | Chousuke: Well, the question is what belongs into a configuration file and what does not. |
| 20:25:24 | <monochrom> | oooohhhh an oxygen atom that wants to donate 4 electrons.... |
| 20:25:43 | <Chousuke> | :P |
| 20:25:52 | <cads> | dminuoso, as in, is the behavior easier to audit when you now have to audit code instead of confs |
| 20:26:35 | <dminuoso> | cads: With code we have traceable artifacts. |
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| 20:26:57 | <Chousuke> | dminuoso: you can have 2 kinds of configuration files: user-modifiable ones and the kind you ship with the software that the user should not touch, ever. Just don't put them in the same place :) |
| 20:27:03 | <cads> | deployed configuration needs to come from a traceable place too |
| 20:27:08 | <dminuoso> | Say, if I tell you what's the sum in this `\x -> x + 4` you'd have to tell me "it depends on what x is" |
| 20:27:17 | <cads> | ie, keep it in source countrol as well |
| 20:27:20 | <dminuoso> | that is, it depends on how you resolve the dependency on x |
| 20:27:45 | <dminuoso> | Chousuke: If its not user modifiable, it belongs into the software for sure. |
| 20:27:57 | <dminuoso> | The entire point of a configuratoin file is so you can modify it. |
| 20:28:20 | <dminuoso> | Im a proponent of packing everything into the binary for most casual applications. |
| 20:28:21 | <cads> | it should be in a configuration file that only exists in production |
| 20:28:25 | <Chousuke> | yeah, but often there's configuration that really is not meant to be modified by the end user |
| 20:28:43 | <Chousuke> | I'm thinking of something like tomcat's XML files. |
| 20:29:06 | <monochrom> | and plain.tex :) |
| 20:29:11 | <Chousuke> | those are configuration for *developers*, not end users |
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| 20:30:17 | <cads> | say you have an app, and part of the build is that you create a windows .msi package. for that you have to name the package and tell the install generator where the package should keep its registry keys, and what script should run to uninstall the package. |
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| 20:30:38 | <cads> | This is part of the project's build time configuration... why not keep that in configuration files? why put that in code? |
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| 20:31:19 | <Chousuke> | you usually don't ship that with the software though. |
| 20:32:01 | <cads> | I'm trying to give an example of a configuration file that the end user never even sees, but which developers might occasionally wish to adjust |
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| 20:32:54 | <hpc> | just imagine source code as a set of configuration files for the compiler |
| 20:32:59 | <Chousuke> | I'm just thinking about interfaces here. Lots of software exposes settings where if you actually change any of them from whatever the developers have set, the software will break. |
| 20:33:08 | <hpc> | also configuration files are just a domain-specific declarative language |
| 20:33:14 | <cads> | hpc, yep |
| 20:33:57 | <cads> | it's a language for the configuration domain of an app, designed to convey absolutely zero logic |
| 20:34:08 | <cads> | or as little logic as possible |
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| 20:34:28 | <Chousuke> | cads: Tomcat / Wildfly XML files are things I wish I could avoid seeing, but the developers obviously need to work with to get their software deployed on the platform :P |
| 20:35:15 | <cads> | that way the configuration domain can stay far away from the logic domain, and you can cleanly interface between the two domains instead of smearing configuration through your logic like a turd in your pants |
| 20:35:19 | <Chousuke> | in the admin role I don't think I should have to worry about what classes and modules wildfly loads to run whatever software I'm configuring. |
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| 20:35:55 | <Chousuke> | but often that configuration is mixed with things I actually *do* have to modify, like database settings |
| 20:36:17 | <monochrom> | Imagine runghc reading your Haskell code from an env var / It is not hard if you try / No more border between program and data / Down that road is Lisp ... |
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| 20:36:35 | <cads> | Chousuke, I think that if I were coming from those platforms my crusade for readable conf files would still exist, but be of an opposite polarity |
| 20:36:37 | <hpc> | down that road is PAM, where the configuration files are a list of .so files to load :D |
| 20:36:49 | <monochrom> | haha you win |
| 20:37:44 | <cads> | hpc, I've recently stopped maintaining a single shell profile, and now I just add shell profile modules to my /etc/profile.d/ directory. I feel I have matoored |
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| 20:37:47 | <Chousuke> | hpc: or things like Jenkins, which is basically useless by itself, but you can make it into a CI system by loading just the right plugins. |
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| 20:39:15 | <hpc> | the funny thing is i actually like jenkins, just not as a CI system |
| 20:39:17 | <cads> | Chousuke, in those systems does it help to have a base configuration that has been winnowed down to have the absolute minimum BS boilerplate, plus a live configuration of all the parameters that you actually /want/ to see when you open the conf file? |
| 20:39:43 | <cads> | Chousuke, that kind of hides the technical debt in a place you won't think about... and where it'll fester |
| 20:40:02 | <cads> | but it gives you a better day to day experience |
| 20:40:36 | cads | is afraid their own configurations are going to baloon like this, now that they are moving to micoservices and kubernetes |
| 20:41:38 | <cads> | I'm going to be working hard to deduplicate configuration, and to not have any configurations that I can't clearly explain what value they provide and why we want to have them |
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| 20:41:54 | <Chousuke> | cads: one way to do it sanely is to have the "default" config in /usr/share or something, load it, and then just override things from /etc |
| 20:42:44 | <Chousuke> | and if there's no way to provide a sane default configuration for something, just... don't. |
| 20:42:58 | <Chousuke> | abort startup and complain if the user hasn't configured it :) |
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| 20:43:58 | <cads> | Chousuke, I am okay with that solution from a security perspective with the proviso that security auditors /must/ inspect computed configurations so as to include the portions inherited from default (they cannot audit the conf file alone) |
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| 20:44:59 | <Chousuke> | some software can dump the full configuration they would use. That's pretty nice. |
| 20:45:19 | <cads> | Chousuke, I dare say that the "complain and bail" or just "complain and keep running if possible" should be the default even in many cases you or I might be tempted to provide a "canonical" default behavior |
| 20:45:29 | <cads> | ie, yagi principle |
| 20:45:35 | <Chousuke> | eg. "doveconf -n" |
| 20:46:21 | <Chousuke> | yeah. It's always a tradeoff |
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| 20:46:59 | <cads> | Chousuke, if you have a config module that unifies config from multiple places, I would say it makes sense to log the computed config on your debug level |
| 20:47:08 | <Chousuke> | it's convenient not having to configure something but there are things you just have to, because it's so heavily environment-dependent. |
| 20:48:06 | <Chousuke> | bad defaults are worse than no defaults :P |
| 20:48:20 | <cads> | then sec auditor audits that. If the config is simply loaded from a single conf file, then I don't think you need to log the config. If you have a commit hash for that instance's config, the auditor can audit that config file directly. |
| 20:48:53 | <cads> | so there's a little less security compliance tooling involved, which is nice, because how often will people invest in compliance tooling |
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| 20:48:58 | <gentauro> | is it "safe" to delete snapshots in the `~/.stack/snapshots` folder? I think 119 snapshots using 15 GB of my hardrive is a bit to much … |
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| 20:49:40 | <Chousuke> | cads: on the other hand if you have all kinds of "irrelevant" configuration in your configuration file it's hard for an auditor to tell what's actually been modified from the defaults. |
| 20:51:34 | <cads> | Chousuke, one thing that has helped me (when working with my own configurations) is to split the configuration into clean and nonintersecting subdomains (typically related to the subdomains that make up your app's concerns). But I don't have any legacy systems whos configurations have grown out of control. I think that tends to happen though, and I don't know if refactoring can hold it off forever. |
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| 20:54:34 | <sm[m]> | gentauro: yes, stack will just reinstall them if needed |
| 20:54:42 | <gentauro> | sm[m]: cool |
| 20:54:52 | <sm[m]> | ncdu is good for browsing & deleting |
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| 20:57:45 | <cads> | ncdu++, also take a look at bootandy's 'dust': https://github.com/bootandy/dust |
| 20:59:57 | <cads> | (for when you want a deep usage graph, but don't need to delete things) |
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| 21:09:25 | <cads> | dminuoso, are you and the team specifically implementing configuration as code practice? Ie, according to Paul Hammant that is " the formal migration of config between environments, backed by a version control system." https://rollout.io/blog/configuration-as-code-everything-need-know/ |
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| 21:14:29 | <cads> | by keeping conf tomls in vcs (except my secrets), it seems I already do that. I thought config as code meant writing all your config into constants sprinkled throughout the code, as if we're all learning to code for the first time and we're back to making rookie mistakes.. |
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| 21:20:00 | <cads> | oh, in this approach we keep a separate repo for configs, so that our dev doesn't have to be affected by the churn of production's current "flavor of the week" configuration |
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| 21:20:55 | <cads> | his could be an issue, if the config your code encounters in dev and testing does not reflect the real world config |
| 21:21:11 | <fuzzypixelz> | sorry to be asking this again, but how do I get automatic type signature added in emacs? |
| 21:21:15 | <fuzzypixelz> | I'm using haskell-mode |
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| 21:29:58 | <cads> | fuzzypixelz, hmm, I could use that functionality too - are you sure haskell-mode is supposed to provide it? |
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| 21:33:22 | <cads> | fuzzypixelz, The issue you're having is that when you do C-u C-c C-t, you get the type annotation (of the current function) in the bottom of the buffer. But what you want is for every nondecorated function in the file to become fully and permanently annotated. Is that correct? |
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| 21:36:55 | <koz_> | :kind! 'Just 'True |
| 21:37:04 | <koz_> | > :kind! 'Just 'True |
| 21:37:08 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘:’ |
| 21:37:17 | <koz_> | > :k 'Just 'True |
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| 21:37:20 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘:’ |
| 21:37:55 | <cads> | https://github.com/jaspervdj/stylish-haskell |
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| 21:38:43 | <cads> | fuzzypixelz, I'm thinking that if we have to implement this ourselves, the most maintable way might be to write a stylish-haskell plugin |
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| 21:42:06 | <cads> | hmm... would it be unusual or at all a bad idea to repurpose a code beautifier into a code preprocessor for an experimental haskell syntax extension? |
| 21:42:29 | <cads> | I should say, to repurpose stylish-haskell |
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| 21:55:20 | <fuzzypixelz> | cads: yes! exactly! |
| 21:58:21 | <fuzzypixelz> | cads: I wouldn't say reusing stylish-haskell is a bad idea |
| 21:58:26 | <dminuoso> | cads: Yes because it cant do what you want it to do. Assmuing you're still chasing this import business, then it's not sufficient. |
| 21:58:47 | <dminuoso> | stylish-haskell uses ghc-lib-parser, so it can only parse what GHC can parse (under all possible extensions) |
| 21:58:51 | <dsal> | Is there not a thing in Ix to go the other way? i.e., can (drop n . range) but can I just ask what n would be? It seems no from the docs, but I might be missing something. |
| 21:59:03 | <sm[m]> | cads: thanks for the dust tip. It's.. interesting! Going to stare at it a bit |
| 21:59:23 | <dminuoso> | dsal: What do you mean by "other way"? |
| 21:59:44 | <dminuoso> | Oh, different Ix sorry. |
| 21:59:49 | <dminuoso> | dsal: Use DOwn |
| 22:00:18 | <dminuoso> | % range (Down (1, 10)) |
| 22:00:18 | <yahb> | dminuoso: ; <interactive>:57:8: error:; * Couldn't match expected type `(a, a)' with actual type `Down (a0, b0)'; * In the first argument of `range', namely `(Down (1, 10))'; In the expression: range (Down (1, 10)); In an equation for `it': it = range (Down (1, 10)); * Relevant bindings include it :: [a] (bound at <interactive>:57:1) |
| 22:00:18 | <dsal> | I mean it maps from the range a value. I want to know where a value would exist within that range. |
| 22:00:49 | <dsal> | I can do this by asking for the range as a list and dropping n elements from it. But that seems silly. |
| 22:01:26 | <dminuoso> | Oh wait, Down doesnt do what I want |
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| 22:01:55 | <dminuoso> | dsal: Do you need this polymorphic over any Ix, or can you monomorphize? |
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| 22:02:34 | <dsal> | Yeah, this is a bit abstract. In *practice*, it's Char and pretty obvious what to do. By definition, that's not a requirement. |
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| 22:03:38 | <dminuoso> | dsal: So this is an odd question but... |
| 22:03:41 | <dminuoso> | What's wrong with.. |
| 22:03:44 | <dminuoso> | % :t index |
| 22:03:44 | <yahb> | dminuoso: Ix a => (a, a) -> a -> Int |
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| 22:04:04 | <dsal> | I want Int -<> a |
| 22:04:07 | <dsal> | er, Int -> a |
| 22:04:37 | <dminuoso> | That doesnt work on Ix |
| 22:04:46 | <dminuoso> | Ix does not even guarantee its bounded |
| 22:05:06 | <dminuoso> | Or it could perhaps me a cyclic structure |
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| 22:05:25 | <iqubic> | Ix a does require that there's an Ord instance for a, right? |
| 22:05:46 | <dminuoso> | Right |
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| 22:08:01 | <dminuoso> | dsal: A sort of "half way there" is Enum. |
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| 22:08:50 | <dminuoso> | Overall I dislike Enum because it admits partiality, and people use it as a poor mans "C enum" which it's not meant to be. |
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| 22:09:09 | <cads> | sm[m], I was out on my desert balcony and I wiped my finger and noticed "hmm, dusti". So I invented an idea for interactive dust (dust plus a ncurses cursor that lets you pick files, delete them, expand directories that dust has collapsed, and so on.). Could be a fun first rust project, but I digress. |
| 22:09:16 | <dsal> | Yeah, I was hoping there was Enum here. Ix is even more magic to me now. |
| 22:09:51 | <cads> | sm[m], if dust were dusti, it would replace ncdu for me I think |
| 22:09:57 | <dsal> | Oh, I see. range is defined by the instance, so it gets to use Enum, but I don't. |
| 22:10:06 | <sm[m]> | cads: I like it, but unfortunately find the display too unintuitive. Perhaps with more docs it'll stick |
| 22:11:01 | <dminuoso> | dsal: Right, there's no coherence laws with Enum, and Enum itself is sort of lawless |
| 22:11:37 | <dsal> | I'm also a bit of an anarchist. |
| 22:12:42 | <cads> | sm[m], I feel confident I could improve dust's display while i'm making it interactive, but since ncdu's code is in C I want it to rot in obscurity without my even reading it |
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| 22:13:49 | <cads> | but yeah, it's currently ugly, and I think what I see when I look at it is more its potential |
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| 22:15:18 | <cads> | and the fact that it's rust is huge, because I can work with rust. And the visual mapping gives me new information about files underneath a given directory level - that's novel, and makes me want to explore and improve the visual presentation. |
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| 22:17:31 | <sm[m]> | it is definitely informative, even without understanding the output in full. Will keep! |
| 22:17:59 | <sm[m]> | who will make duhst :) |
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| 22:22:37 | <cads> | sm[m], are you familiar with the output of the tree -L 2 command? This uses ascii pipe, elbow and tee characters to visualizes the top two levels. That is the current directory plus the immediate descendants of files in that directory. If you can visualize such a truncated file tree, note that each item is on its own row by convention |
| 22:24:07 | <cads> | Each row contains a file or a directory. We can annotate that row with an indicator of that item's size. We use either the file size or the composite size of a directory's descendants. |
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| 22:25:53 | <cads> | dust can group directories by level or by the size of the directory contents. That means for instance that if a directory is very large, we do not display its contents, but display the size indicator for that entire directory |
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| 22:30:38 | <cads> | dminuoso no, I want to help fuzzypixelz do his type encrichment tool using something better than manual cut past automation of .hs files via perl, which is the current suggested solution according to stack exchange (only don't use it on qualified imports because it's broken) |
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| 22:35:48 | <cads> | fuzzypixelz's issue is that there are some functions - those whose types come from qualified imports - that the current perl based solution bonks on, because parsing qualified names is not implemented |
| 22:37:40 | <cads> | what should we call this? automatic type documentation? |
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| 22:53:33 | <hyiltiz> | maerwald tomjaguarpaw: yeah, https://hackage.haskell.org/package/roundtrip https://hackage.haskell.org/package/roundtrip-aeson and https://hackage.haskell.org/package/roundtrip-string were the libs I were referring to |
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| 22:54:40 | <hyiltiz> | Anyone with any experience using 'em? The glaringly sparse documentation is a bit prohibitive, and seems like the libs were a result of an academic excercise |
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All times are in UTC on 2020-12-06.