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Logs on 2020-12-26 (freenode/#haskell)

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00:21:12 <Feuermagier> what does <$> or <*> do?
00:21:43 <koz_> Feuermagier: <$> is fmap.
00:21:59 <koz_> To understand <*>, read the Typeclassopedia up to, and including, the Applicative section.
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00:39:03 <glguy> Generically all one knows about what <$> or <*> is that they satisfy a few laws
00:39:20 <glguy> And what type they have
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00:55:08 <xsperry> Feuermagier, here's an example of how to use it with maybe applicative:
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00:55:24 <xsperry> > (+) <$> Just 10 <*> Just 20
00:55:26 <lambdabot> Just 30
00:55:31 <xsperry> > (+) <$> Just 10 <*> Nothing
00:55:33 <lambdabot> Nothing
00:55:59 <Feuermagier> interesting. thx
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00:56:31 <xsperry> it works the same with IO, parsers, and every other applicative instances. and you can keep chaining function arguments with <*>
00:56:58 <Vulfe> <*> is often used in conjunction with <$> and functions with multiple inputs, because you can take something with type a -> b -> c, hit it with fmap to get f a -> (f b -> f c) and then <*> that output to get an f c
00:57:20 <Vulfe> (and so on with more inputs)
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00:57:46 <Vulfe> oops, I meant f (a -> b) in that line there
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01:21:30 hackage wide-word 0.1.1.2 - Data types for large but fixed width signed and unsigned integers https://hackage.haskell.org/package/wide-word-0.1.1.2 (ErikDeCastroLopo)
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01:28:18 <ezzieyguywuf> is there a way to view a packages `test-suite` depenedencies on hackage without having to click on `browse` and manually checking the cabal file?
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01:39:43 <mniip> I've been wondering for a while now
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01:39:57 <mniip> is there a pure functional analog of union-find
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01:40:34 <mniip> is it possible to combine path-compressing reads with referential transparency
01:43:15 <mniip> if we consider "uf' = union a b uf", and we consider the question of uf persisting in memory as a part of uf'
01:43:22 <mniip> can we somehow mutate uf' whilst keeping uf valid
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01:45:31 <mniip> I'm willing to go the route of dirty hacks to mutate "immutable" data as long as it can be proven consistent with RT modulo observable properties
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01:55:38 <mniip> hmm, if a root node has many children in uf, and in uf' that node is parented to some other node, we would have to create a new node for it in uf', and reparent all those nodes that were the children
01:56:02 <mniip> that ruins the asymptotics of insertion
01:57:41 <koz_> Is there such a thing as CoMaybe?
01:58:11 <koz_> (kinda how Store is CoState, and Traced is CoWriter)
01:59:19 <mniip> Maybe is a monad that comes from an adjunction Set <-> Set*
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01:59:25 <mniip> so CoMaybe would be an endofunctor on Set*
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02:00:00 <koz_> Set* is 'Set with one extra thing'?
02:00:05 <koz_> (very generally speaking)
02:00:14 <mniip> sets with specified basepoints
02:00:20 <mniip> and functions that preserve said basepoint
02:00:44 <mniip> you could also see it as a slice category 1/Set
02:01:02 <koz_> What would each of these look like as a Haskell data type (if it exists)?
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02:01:42 <mniip> Set* is about as representable in haskell as Grp
02:01:48 <mniip> (not very)
02:03:04 <koz_> What about the slice category option?
02:03:12 <mniip> also not really
02:03:31 <koz_> So, in short, in theory yes, in practice, no.
02:03:34 <koz_> Oh well, thanks anyway.
02:03:49 <mniip> you could represent them easily in a dependently typed language
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02:04:04 <koz_> Which Haskell isn't, really.
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02:04:56 <mniip> oh actually maybe
02:05:05 <koz_> (dat pun)
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02:05:43 <mniip> if you consider Category a-la kmett's hask package
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02:07:00 <mniip> class Pointed p where { type Unpoint p :: *; point :: Iso' p (Unpoint p) }
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02:08:05 <mniip> data HaskStar a b = (Pointed a, Pointed b) => HaskStar (Unpoint a -> Unpoint b)
02:08:16 <mniip> instance Category HaskStar where type Ob = Pointed
02:08:28 <mniip> you can fill in the rest of the details
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02:09:33 <mniip> Maybe is a functor Hask -> HaskStar in the sense that `instance Pointed (Maybe a) where type Unpoint (Maybe a) = a`
02:10:14 <mniip> there is also a forgetful functor U :: HaskStar -> Hask, mapping `a` to Maybe (Unpoint a)
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02:10:57 <mniip> and `fmap (HaskStar f) = view (from point . to f . point)`
02:11:43 <dolio> Store and Traced aren't really even that similar as examples.
02:11:52 <mniip> "CoMaybe" would be a really boring comonad on Set* though
02:12:09 <dolio> So it doesn't seem like there's even a basis for coherently asking what "comaybe" is.
02:12:29 <mniip> I mean mathematically comaybe exists as a comonad on Set*
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02:13:51 <mniip> oh no I got HaskStar wrong
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02:24:04 <frdg> how would you go about knowledge base programming with Haskell? I am having trouble thinking of how I would implement the concept of a fact. Being haskell it would have to be as a type, but then how do you query a haskell type? The question gets more complicated if I wanted to ask `give me the known Foo's that are constructed with a list of length 5`. Assuming we have a type `data Foo = Foo [Int]`.
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02:33:02 <mniip> neat, I've managed to fix hask to compile under a modern ghc
02:33:34 <exarkun> frdg: Being Haskell, I don't see why it would have to be a type.
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02:37:27 <frdg> exarkun: oh so you are saying it may make sense to not represent facts as haskell code at all and instead as just generic data?
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02:40:37 <exarkun> frdg: Yes
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02:41:42 <frdg> ok I was going down the wrong path I think
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03:54:13 <koz_> @pl \x -> f . g x
03:54:13 <lambdabot> (f .) . g
03:54:16 <koz_> Lol.
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03:59:18 <maralorn> I have a questionable idea: What about a haddocks dark-theme?
04:03:37 <monochrom> Film negative was dark theme before it was cool. :)
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04:20:30 <_deepfire> maralorn: ooh, absolutely..
04:21:02 <_deepfire> a bunch less tabs to do CSS transformation on..
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04:41:00 hackage parochial 0.1.0.0 - Help Manage project specific documentation https://hackage.haskell.org/package/parochial-0.1.0.0 (filterfish)
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07:22:45 <Kronic> Hey there all, I hope you are all having a good holiday season - I was wondering something: I am using HUnit to test an API wrapper I built, and I was wondering what would be the idiomatic way to test equality against a function that returns an IO Bool ? I need to provide an expected value, should I go import the IO constructor? Seems kinda wrong to me for some reason though, so... I thought I should come ask.
07:24:11 <c_wraith> what is it you actually intend to test?
07:24:50 <Kronic> Well, my API wrapper returns an Either result, so my idea was to just test on a failing case the result of isLeft
07:25:34 <c_wraith> So... you have an IO value that you wish to test the result of executing?
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07:26:14 <Kronic> I have an Either value wrapped in an Either value, and I want to assert that the Either isLeft/isRight
07:26:22 <Kronic> wrapped in an IO Value*
07:26:26 <Kronic> Sorry, it's early here :D
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07:27:26 <Kronic> I mean I guess I could pop it into a do block
07:27:36 <c_wraith> But to be very clear - you don't care if it's the same IO value as some other one, you care about the result of executing it?
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07:30:13 <Kronic> Let me see, I'm not sure if I understand the question fully which makes me think I did a poor job of explaining. I have a function "runAPIRequest", it is of type APIRequestParams -> IO (Either ClientError APIResult) -- I want to evaluate this function with a default value that I know will fail (return a left value of type ClientError) and I want to assert that for my given case it's a ClientError
07:31:12 <Kronic> Hopefully I'm making sense here
07:31:15 <c_wraith> are you aware that Haskell makes evaluation and execution different things?
07:31:26 <c_wraith> functions are evaluated. IO values are executed.
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07:31:37 <c_wraith> (more generally, expressions are evaluated)
07:31:37 <Kronic> Roughly yes, I know that much
07:31:53 <Kronic> I mean, I wouldn't be able to explain it to someone but I have the concept in my head
07:34:14 <Kronic> I suppose what you're saying means I have no way to trick it into type checking some bool that I randomly wrap in an IO
07:34:40 <c_wraith> I'm saying you're looking at the wrong thing anyway. importing the IO constructor is going to do nothing for you.
07:34:56 <c_wraith> But fortunately, the HUnit Assertion type is just IO ()
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07:35:10 <c_wraith> so you can run IO actions, bind their results, and then make assertions about the results
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07:36:22 <Kronic> I did see that in the document, maybe what I was asking was a little off the wall. I dunno, I'll go back to the drawing board
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08:07:48 <leifm> What imperative language is the most Haskell-y?
08:07:56 <leifm> Haskell is great but I need a job
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08:17:53 <siraben> leifm: Rust?
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08:18:24 <siraben> has typeclasses, rank 3 types, inference, pattern matching, ADTs, generic
08:18:42 <siraben> no HKTs though :(
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08:40:40 <Rembane> leifm: Ocaml is also quite Haskelly
08:40:43 <Rembane> leifm: PureScript too
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09:21:29 <gentauro> Rembane: OCaml? Eh no
09:21:56 <Rembane> gentauro: Why not?
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09:22:17 <gentauro> cos the OCaml community seek performance by "bending" FP
09:22:49 <gentauro> so there are a lot of mutable datastructures
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09:23:06 <gentauro> and ofc the layer of OOP makes OCaml far from Haskell
09:24:00 <gentauro> Rembane: but both languages are in the ML family. I guess that would be what they have in common :)
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09:25:02 <gentauro> Rembane: but I agree with PS beeing the "closest" to Haskell we have ;)
09:25:09 <Rembane> gentauro: Good points, I think it's worth checking out though. :)
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09:32:14 <Kronic> I tried OCaml once but was immediately put off by the multi-core support at the time I checked it out
09:32:39 <Kronic> I dunno if it is any better in that regard now
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09:34:47 <wz1000> Can anyone think of a nicer way to do loop unrolling in this simple expression language? https://gist.github.com/wz1000/dc05c6150c1cca1b61b2e60a997654a7
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09:52:00 hackage sydtest 0.0.0.0 - An advanced modern testing framework for Haskell with good defaults and advanced testing features. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/sydtest-0.0.0.0 (Norfair)
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10:31:59 hackage hasbolt-extras 0.0.1.6 - Extras for hasbolt library https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hasbolt-extras-0.0.1.6 (ozzzzz)
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10:44:00 hackage hiedb 0.1.0.0 - Generates a references DB from .hie files https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hiedb-0.1.0.0 (wz1000)
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11:50:59 hackage hmidi 0.2.3.1 - Binding to the OS level MIDI services https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hmidi-0.2.3.1 (BalazsKomuves)
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11:57:03 <nf> i'm wondering about the example at https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector-0.12.1.2/docs/Data-Vector-Unboxed.html#v:indexM
11:57:26 <nf> how is that different from just doing write mv i $! v ! i ?
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11:58:42 <nf> especially considering the implementation https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector-0.12.1.2/docs/src/Data.Vector.Primitive.html#line-234
11:59:09 <nf> does return change anything there rather than id?
12:00:12 <nf> (if the difference is that $! v ! i would be strict in the element as well, how is it not the case with basicUnsafeIndexM ?)
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13:31:41 <Orbstheorem> I'm trying to type a function running an operation on a database using Beam.
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13:32:25 <Orbstheorem> I want to polymorphic on the backend, so I can to either `runBeamSqlite` or `runBeamPostgres` with the same function.
13:32:29 <Uniaika> Orbstheorem: all my condolences
13:32:34 <Orbstheorem> :(
13:32:44 <Orbstheorem> Been over it for 2 hours :(
13:32:44 <Uniaika> being polymorphic on the backend is a pipe dream
13:33:18 <Orbstheorem> There's a note on a changelog about it, but it doesn't work :D
13:33:30 <Uniaika> you will have to deal with the particularities of *two* backends, rather than 0 as you wanted
13:33:36 <Rembane> Orbstheorem: Why do you need that? And how much is it worth to you?
13:33:41 <Uniaika> pick one and stick to it
13:35:26 <Orbstheorem> I'm constrained to use MySQL (from the project brief), but testing with sqlite is so much easier.
13:35:46 <Orbstheorem> My database is trivial and the operations are too.
13:36:01 <Orbstheorem> So, I was hoping I could get away with being as minimal as possible.
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13:40:29 <Rembane> Orbstheorem: I would go for fixing as many parameters as possible between dev. and prod just to save cognitive overhead, like Uniaika said.
13:40:49 <Orbstheorem> :(
13:41:16 Orbstheorem likes the idea of IsSql92Syntax
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13:41:47 <geekosaur> wonderful idea with about 0 actual applicability
13:41:55 <Orbstheorem> I'll probably end up fixing MySQL and forcing everyone to install a local instance.
13:42:00 <Orbstheorem> But... but...
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13:42:07 <Orbstheorem> grmb...
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13:49:01 <Orbstheorem> Hum, I got it to typecheck
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13:49:19 <Rembane> If it typechecks, ship it! :D
13:49:24 <Orbstheorem> Oh, I got it working :D
13:49:32 <Orbstheorem> Rembane: I'm doing haskell, not Idris :(
13:49:37 <Orbstheorem> Well, I'm doing haskell :D
13:49:41 <Orbstheorem> Hey!
13:49:45 <Orbstheorem> It works xDD
13:50:02 Orbstheorem feels he's shooting himself in the foot and he might regret it later.
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13:50:16 <Orbstheorem> But I got my `DbM be m` constraint :D
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13:50:53 <Rembane> Orbstheorem: ^^ good luck!
13:52:30 <Orbstheorem> For the curious: `type DbM be m = ( BeamSqlBackend be , HasSqlValueSyntax (Sql92ValueSyntax (BeamSqlBackendSyntax be)) Text , MonadBeam be m)`
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13:56:59 <Uniaika> * Orbstheorem feels he's shooting himself in the foot and he might regret it later. // not gonna lie, you will
13:57:12 <Uniaika> if you want to hear some war stories about Beam, I recommend you wait for the kiwis to wake up
13:57:16 <Uniaika> :P
13:57:21 <Orbstheorem> xDD
13:57:35 <Orbstheorem> Hey, at least I'll have my own warstories :D
13:59:03 <Uniaika> yup' :)
13:59:55 <Orbstheorem> btw, would you put models (like UserT) in a `Foo.Database` module, or would you name it differently?
14:00:09 <Orbstheorem> I've seen a couple of projects put it in `Foo.Database.Schema`.
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14:07:00 hackage quote-quot 0.1.0.0 - Divide without division https://hackage.haskell.org/package/quote-quot-0.1.0.0 (Bodigrim)
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14:22:00 hackage MIP 0.1.1.0 - Library for using Mixed Integer Programming (MIP) https://hackage.haskell.org/package/MIP-0.1.1.0 (MasahiroSakai)
14:22:59 hackage MIP-glpk 0.1.1.0 - A GLPK backend to the MIP library. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/MIP-glpk-0.1.1.0 (MasahiroSakai)
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14:40:07 <exarkun> I'm trying to work out why https://gist.github.com/exarkun/0d30f7161552449bf33294fa06f5ad57 never terminates. It's a trimmed down version of the same problem from a larger program (which is why, eg, it is using IORef). I think in this simplified form I begin to see why but I'm not sure.
14:41:27 <xensky> for anyone using VSCod/ium with the haskell extension, how do you disable autocompletion? ex: i type `putStrLn ` and on the space it immediately types `String` that i have to delete. it's more annoying for more complicated types
14:41:56 <exarkun> I think it's because `shares` on line 24 gets evaluated over and over again but instead of progressing through the actions it defines, each evaluation starts again at the beginning
14:42:04 <geekosaur> exarkun, I consider tha reuse of shares suspicious
14:42:18 <geekosaur> it's aparameter in the one case and a function in the other
14:42:41 <exarkun> well, okay, bad naming maybe, I think that's just an artifact of my effort to simplify it
14:43:00 <geekosaur> the parameter never changes, so how could it progress?
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14:44:02 <exarkun> I assume there is _some_ way, since `whileJust_` is presumably not broken/useless
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14:44:25 <exarkun> (since it is someone else's code, not mine :)
14:44:35 <Guest_79> hey everyone
14:45:09 <exarkun> I updated the gist to rename the function `make_shares` fwiw
14:45:24 <Guest_79> can i ask a question here?
14:45:48 <geekosaur> youu can ask; not sure who's around to answer today
14:46:23 <exarkun> Would changing `make_shares` to return ... `IO (IO (Maybe String))` ... help? That is, resolve the `newIORef` first so that the remaining `IO (Maybe String)` is only concerned with working on the state in the IORef?
14:46:41 <exarkun> `IO (IO ...)` seem like it might be a mistake though
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14:48:36 <geekosaur> you still have the same fundamental problem, shares is never updated so it'll just keep looping forever. seems like that wants to be make_shares to me, perhaps?
14:49:09 <exarkun> make_shares needs an IORef though
14:49:23 <exarkun> I think another way to phrase my question would be ... who should make the IORef
14:52:16 <exarkun> Ah, so I just edited it again (rev 3) to try the `IO (IO ...)` thing and it causes it to terminate
14:52:20 <xsperry> I used IO (IO ..) in the past like that. outter IO creates IORef, then inner block (which I returned) captures the reference
14:52:23 <exarkun> but it still feels like a weird thing
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14:53:22 <xsperry> this way you can create multiple actions, and each one will have its own IORef
14:53:27 exarkun nods
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14:55:05 <exarkun> when I search hoogle for things with `IO (IO a)` not much comes up. not sure if I should try to conclude anything from that though.
14:55:50 <exarkun> I don't have any good explanation for why I'm worried about this, I guess
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15:06:48 <xsperry> it is not something one needs very often, and many google hits for "IO (IO ())" are likely about people new to haskell getting nested IO by mistake. without any more contex I dont see anything wrong with what youbare trying to do
15:07:07 <xsperry> you are*
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15:16:42 <larryba> hi. my haskell process can only use 2GB on windows. would upgrading to 64 bit ghc would allow me to use more memory?
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15:17:45 <hpc> are you on a 32-bit processor?
15:18:04 <larryba> it is 64 bit, as are windows
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15:18:45 <hpc> you should be using 64-bit ghc anyway then :P
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15:19:47 <larryba> I recall people recommending against it several years ago, and I never bothered to upgrade, or had the need to. I could really use more than 2GB for this program though
15:20:18 <hpc> weird
15:20:27 <hpc> in any event, haskell.org doesn't even have 32-bit builds anymore
15:20:32 <hpc> so you might as well just update
15:21:03 <exarkun> xsperry: Thanks
15:22:08 <larryba> hpc, ok good to know. but just to make sure, it will fix 2GB limitation?
15:22:23 <hpc> yes
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15:32:07 <larryba> ok nice
15:32:25 <larryba> it works
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15:59:47 <larryba> I want to access webcam, ideally package should be crossplatform (linux, windows, OS X). most google hits point to Graphics.Webcam.Linux, which is probably linux only, and hasn't been updated since 2012
16:01:08 <larryba> any recommendations?
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17:08:41 <wz1000> larryba: v4l2
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17:09:20 <wz1000> but this is linux only
17:10:45 <wz1000> for cross platform your best bet would be using some browser api
17:12:10 <wz1000> or opencv might work as well
17:13:04 <ij> how does this know when to copy? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector-0.12.1.2/docs/Data-Vector.html#v:modify if I modify it and no other references are around, will no copies be indeed made?
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17:16:08 <dolio> ij: It doesn't have to do with references.
17:16:09 <ij> or is that not what will happen/
17:18:52 <dolio> It's kind of complicated to explain. But one of the ways of building a vector is 'freeze the result of this `ST s (MVector s e)` computation.'
17:19:30 <dolio> If you `modify` something built that way, it will fuse into just freezing a different MVector.
17:19:55 <dolio> Or rather, the 'same' MVector, but with an additional operation run on it.
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17:20:32 <dolio> If you have applied some operation to the vector that no longer makes it obviously of that form, then it must copy.
17:21:00 <ij> ah, so only if op is noop will I have no copy?
17:21:44 <dolio> No. But for instance, if you do `modify f (modify g v)`, then it won't make two copies.
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17:24:13 <ij> I'm not sure that explains it for me. :( I can't relate that to how much/less memory will actually be used
17:25:13 <koz_> maerwald: Still getting that DigestError when trying to compile 8.10.3 with ghcup.
17:25:28 <ij> It sonuds interesting, though! I wouldn't mind making a SO post, so someone can proved a more elaborate answer for the less initiated...
17:25:51 <koz_> ij: The fusion framework for Vector is fairly complex.
17:26:04 <koz_> I would argue that if you _truly truly care_, then just work with MVector and freeze when done.
17:26:13 <dolio> ij: Another relevant thing is `create`.
17:26:14 <koz_> If you don't _truly truly care_, I wouldn't worry about it.
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17:27:08 <dolio> If you do `modify f (create st)`, then it won't make a copy. It will become like `create (st >>= \mv -> mv <$ f mv)`.
17:27:24 <ij> dolio, that makes sense
17:28:07 <ij> then it will make a copy for my case, because it's already been used
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17:28:22 <dolio> So you can eliminate a bunch of modify calls if they're inlined enough to statically figure that out.
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17:31:04 <ij> makes sense, because I've used ST once and have a little of intuition
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17:32:58 <dolio> There are other ways of things fusing in vector, too. It's pretty complicated.
17:33:38 <ij> Why do you know!?
17:33:45 <ij> research paper?
17:34:04 <dolio> I used to be the official maintainer of vector.
17:34:20 <ij> ha! :) that beats everything
17:34:23 <dolio> So I had to read the research papers.
17:34:55 <koz_> dolio: Ooof, that's quite the job you used to have.
17:35:00 <koz_> Thank you for your service.
17:35:21 <ij> dolio, Do the ideas translate to something else you're doing now? How do you value the experience?
17:35:48 <Uniaika> dolio: thanks for your service! o7
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17:38:02 <dolio> I don't think rewrite rules are something you'd design most systems around. The stuff in vector is interesting, though.
17:39:50 <dolio> I've seen people take the ideas and use them as runtime representations, so that you can do similar tricks dynamically. Not sure how well that works out.
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19:05:26 <gentauro> is there any `gain` by replacing `mapM` with `mapConcurrently` from the `async` package when all the IO is strict (`readFileStrict`)?
19:05:43 <gentauro> it looks like it doesn't get any faster nor slower …
19:06:29 <merijn> gentauro: Well, reading files is almost certainly bottlenecked by your actual disk, not so much concurrency
19:06:33 <gentauro> already building with the with the `GHC` flags `-threaded` and `-with-rtsopts=-N`
19:06:41 <merijn> eh
19:06:56 <merijn> -with-rtsopts=-N is probably bad anyway
19:07:02 <gentauro> merijn: why?
19:07:34 <merijn> Because by default -threaded uses the parallel GC (for now, until the default gets changed) which combined with -N wreaks havoc upon performance
19:07:49 <merijn> You need -qg (or -gq?) to disable parallel GC
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19:08:02 <tomsmeding> -qg
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19:10:01 tomsmeding wonders what the letters 'q' 'g' even stand for
19:10:16 <gentauro> merijn: in my .cabal file I have the following `ghc-options:` for binaries: [-O2, -threaded, -rtsopts, -with-rtsopts=-N]
19:10:24 <gentauro> should I just remove any of them?
19:10:44 <gentauro> wouldn't that be easier?
19:10:49 <tomsmeding> no -Wall ?
19:10:56 <gentauro> tomsmeding: yes
19:11:08 <gentauro> that's get inherited from the `base options`
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19:11:48 tomsmeding approves
19:11:50 <merijn> You probably want, like: -with-rtsopts="-N -qg" although even then -N is questionable
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19:13:11 <gentauro> tomsmeding: and outdated version of my `base` for .cabal files -> https://gitlab.com/spisemisu/pcx-utils/-/blob/master/pcx-utils.cabal#L35-85
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19:13:59 <gentauro> merijn: should I remove `-threaded`?
19:14:12 <gentauro> or does the `-qg` just "overrule" it?
19:14:23 <merijn> gentauro: Those do different things
19:14:30 <gentauro> and if yes, why even add it in the first place (avoid confusion)
19:14:51 <merijn> gentauro: -threaded uses the multi-threaded RTS (which is fine), but currently the multi-threaded RTS *also* enables parallel GC by default
19:15:12 <dminuoso> The weird question is why non-threaded is even the default, given that it's not even officially supported... :p
19:15:27 <merijn> Which is bad, because for most (like, 70-80%) of programs the parallel GC is dramatically worse than normal
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19:15:42 <merijn> dminuoso: THere's an accepted proposal to change that, which includes disabling parallel GC for -threaded
19:15:43 <gentauro> merijn: `ghc: unrecognised flag: -qg` :|
19:15:45 <tomsmeding> gentauro: that's some nice customisation right there :P
19:15:54 <gentauro> I'm on GHC.8.8.4
19:15:58 <merijn> gentauro: It's an rtsopt, not GHC option
19:16:03 <tomsmeding> -with-rtsopts=-N -with-rtsopts=-qg
19:16:07 <merijn> tomsmeding: Nope
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19:16:23 <merijn> tomsmeding: The last -with-rtsopts clobbers the preceding one
19:16:30 <tomsmeding> wat
19:16:33 <merijn> You need -with-rtsopts="-N -qg"
19:16:38 <merijn> tomsmeding: I already have an open ticket about that
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19:16:42 <tomsmeding> that is some toxic behaviour
19:16:43 <tomsmeding> thank you
19:16:59 <tomsmeding> merijn++
19:17:05 <merijn> tomsmeding: But I won't have any time to address it until...I dunno...end 2021 or something
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19:17:13 <merijn> So, uh, if you want it, you gotta implement it :p
19:17:27 <tomsmeding> it being known and acknowledged as a bug is step 1
19:17:29 hackage fast-arithmetic 0.6.5.1 - Fast functions on integers. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/fast-arithmetic-0.6.5.1 (vmchale)
19:17:38 <gentauro> 20:16 < merijn> You need -with-rtsopts="-N -qg"
19:17:41 <egp8> what is ==# ? where do i get its definition?
19:17:48 <gentauro> merijn: adding that to my .cabal file, breaks the build :|
19:17:57 <dminuoso> egp8: https://hoogle.haskell.org/?hoogle=%28%3D%3D%23%29
19:18:09 <merijn> egp8: Probably builtin primitive? Although I'm not sure
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19:18:19 <gentauro> 20:16 < tomsmeding> -with-rtsopts=-N -with-rtsopts=-qg
19:18:22 <gentauro> that works though
19:18:28 <merijn> gentauro: Eh, it doesn't
19:18:33 <merijn> That doesn't set -N
19:18:35 <tomsmeding> though see merijn's comments about "works"
19:18:58 <egp8> merijn, dminuoso answered okay
19:19:15 <gentauro> `-with-rtsopts="-N -qg"` => ghc: unrecognised flag: -qg" :|
19:19:27 <merijn> gentauro: Are you using hpack?
19:19:52 <merijn> egp8: That result has no actual implementation/definition, though ;)
19:20:16 <gentauro> merijn: I don't think so
19:20:24 <gentauro> how do I know if I use `hpack`?
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19:20:33 <merijn> gentauro: Ok, then probably not
19:20:35 <merijn> hmm
19:20:41 <tomsmeding> "do I use hpack" == "do I have package.yaml"
19:20:45 <merijn> Sounds like something is messing up the quoting
19:20:59 <gentauro> 20:20 < tomsmeding> "do I use hpack" == "do I have package.yaml"
19:21:04 <gentauro> can confirm that I don't have that file :)
19:21:05 <merijn> "are you using anything that's not directly editing a .cabal file"
19:21:08 <tomsmeding> I would try spamming backslashes everywhere, before " and before the space
19:21:19 <gentauro> merijn: I edit the .cabal file
19:21:20 <tomsmeding> apart from stack.yaml
19:21:24 <tomsmeding> :p
19:21:42 <merijn> gentauro: oh, maybe your cabal-install is ancient? Which version do you have?
19:22:06 <merijn> oh, my bad
19:22:13 <gentauro> `cabal-version: 2.2`
19:22:14 <gentauro> :)
19:22:18 <merijn> You need to quote outside the flag
19:22:19 <merijn> https://github.com/merijn/Belewitte/blob/master/benchmark-analysis/benchmark-analysis.cabal#L65
19:22:20 <gentauro> that's the header of my file :)
19:22:28 <merijn> So "-with-rtsopts=-N -qg"
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19:23:27 <gentauro> 20:22 < merijn> So "-with-rtsopts=-N -qg"
19:23:29 <gentauro> that worked !!!
19:23:31 <gentauro> thx !!!
19:23:54 <tomsmeding> merijn: am I correctly seeing that people vote for option 2.1 on your issue? https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/18117
19:24:15 <gentauro> merijn: in the line above, you don't use -N -> https://github.com/merijn/Belewitte/blob/master/benchmark-analysis/benchmark-analysis.cabal#L64
19:24:25 <gentauro> wouldn't it be easier if I just remove -N?
19:24:44 <merijn> tomsmeding: Seems like it
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19:24:55 <merijn> gentauro: I set the number of capabilities in code
19:25:00 <merijn> via setNumCapabilities
19:25:06 <gentauro> merijn: roger that
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19:25:18 <merijn> So you can just specify the number of threads at runtime instead
19:25:28 <tomsmeding> I agree with you merijn that option 1 is the most reasonable, with 2.3 in second place
19:25:40 <gentauro> merijn: from 24 seconds to 8 seconds :o
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19:25:56 <gentauro> WTH, that was kind of a nice performance optimization :o
19:26:11 <merijn> :)
19:26:34 <merijn> Like I said, parallel GC is bad for most programs (especially if you're not manually tuning)
19:26:52 <merijn> It's *especially* bad with high numbers of capabilities like -N makes
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19:29:18 <gentauro> this is why I <3 #haskell on freenode. So many clever peeps that always help !!!
19:30:00 <gentauro> merijn: I have updated my `template.cabal` file with your comments, so when the project goes "open source" everybody will know the source of the optimization ;)
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19:33:28 <egp8> merijn, via the GHCi error message, I came onto https://wiki.haskell.org/Lifting and https://stackoverflow.com/questions/35318562/what-is-levity-polymorphism/35320729#35320729
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19:34:54 <tomsmeding> gentauro: is there a specific reason why you enabled -fpedantic-bottoms in your common flags?
19:35:07 <koz_> TIL that was even a flag, and lol.
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19:35:21 <tomsmeding> koz_: https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/bugs.html#expressions-and-patterns
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19:38:03 <Uniaika> koz_: LOL indeed
19:38:14 <koz_> I am easily amused.
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19:42:29 hackage ghcide 0.6.0.2 - The core of an IDE https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghcide-0.6.0.2 (PepeIborra)
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19:46:36 <gentauro> tomsmeding: once I broke GHC -> http://blog.stermon.com/articles/2020/05/22/haskell-data-array-log256-safe-idiomatic-and-bottom.html
19:46:39 <gentauro> :(
19:47:07 <gentauro> tomsmeding: GHC doesn't like if you use `bottom` to much (`undefined`)
19:47:24 <merijn> Why do you need so much undefined?
19:47:57 <koz_> merijn: gentauro is Sir Mix-A-Lot?
19:48:45 <MarcelineVQ> are you even old enough for that refence :>
19:49:03 <merijn> >.>
19:49:15 <koz_> Lol.
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19:49:39 <gentauro> koz_: hmmm, who?
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19:49:56 <koz_> gentauro: This guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X53ZSxkQ3Ho
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19:51:06 <gentauro> koz_: I still don't get the ref …
19:51:16 <gentauro> (good to know that it's this guy who made that song though)
19:51:17 <koz_> Key line: "I like big butts and I cannot lie".
19:51:31 <koz_> Then draw logical chain of 'butt' -> 'bottom'
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19:51:43 <koz_> Then fail to laugh at koz_'s poor humour attempt.
19:52:20 <gentauro> koz_: ahh, fair enough
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19:52:43 <koz_> tomsmeding: I'm making sure my policy of not making jokes more than 3 people get continues!
19:52:53 <gentauro> btw, speaking of `bottom` "jokes", why isn't the GHC `merge-bot` on GitLab not called `bot-Tom` instead of `marge-bot`?
19:53:08 <koz_> ....
19:53:21 <Rembane> :D
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19:56:59 hackage crdt 10.6 - Conflict-free replicated data types https://hackage.haskell.org/package/crdt-10.6 (cblp)
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19:57:22 <Uniaika> woop woop CRDTs!
19:57:27 <Uniaika> they are -> super fun!
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20:58:55 <egp8> cool my tweaks work. and they are sane =))
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21:29:42 <orion> I like sum types. I hate how sum types are represented in SQL by libraries such as persistent. I could use acid-state, but then I'd have to keep the entire database in memory, as well as write my own logic for doing "WHERE", "ORDER BY", etc. Are there any better options?
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21:30:39 <MarcelineVQ> You could be the hero
21:31:27 <orion> Is such a library really something people would enjoy?
21:32:11 <Rembane> I don't recall if Selda handles it in a nice way.
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21:32:48 <orion> I looked at https://github.com/agentm/project-m36 but it seems to be abandoned.
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21:34:09 <orion> It also relies on Cloud Haskell, which I believe is also an abandoned process.
21:34:13 <orion> project*
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21:34:44 <MarcelineVQ> '66f4d99 on Nov 22' depends what abandoned means to you
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21:40:15 <merijn> orion: You forgot the whole "acid-state is misnamed and not actually acid", part :p
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21:40:54 <merijn> orion: Crazy idea, just use SQL directly and define/store them however you like? :p
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21:43:32 <toppler> I'm playing with pipes. Is there a derivable function of type Functor m => (a -> Proxy x' x a b m r) -> (b -> Proxy x' x b c m r) -> a -> Proxy x' x a c m r? The idea is that it appends on the upstream interface, and matches opposite ends of the downstream, giving another category with identity in "p = respond x >=> p". I can't figure out how to derive it, or see otherwise why it doesn't make sense in the library.
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21:47:24 <orion> merijn: In what aspects is acid-state not ACID?
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21:49:45 <merijn> orion: https://github.com/acid-state/acid-state/issues/79
21:50:01 <orion> Thanks.
21:50:28 <merijn> Also, relying on fsync and generally trusting the posix file API means the odds of it actually being correct are, basically, 0
21:51:19 <merijn> fsync on linux is busted to the point of being unusable for actual durability/safety and the posix file API makes it a Herculean task to do anything remotely close to safe/atomic
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22:04:57 <madnight> merijn: fsync is just the POSIX API for a POSIX filesystem, so it depends about which filesystem we are talking
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22:05:22 <madnight> merijn: fsync on ext4?
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23:53:12 <fuzzypixelz> hello again!
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23:56:09 <fuzzypixelz> I feel as though monad semantics have an unspoken rule. Is it often the case that a monad has a "value" inside it but also keeps track of "side effects"? As in, when we use "return" or reason about which value gets passed though f in m >>= f, we always mean one specific value, but we never explicitly say what that value is, and we never explicitly say that we're propagating the "side effects" through
23:56:57 <fuzzypixelz> all the important things about how the monad works are implicit in the definition for >>=
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23:58:44 <koz_> fuzzypixelz: A monad (or Monad) is 100% what its definition and laws say it is. Talking about having 'a value' 'inside' anything may work as an analogy for some instances, but not all.
23:58:50 <koz_> For example, consider lists.

All times are in UTC on 2020-12-26.