Logs on 2021-01-14 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 00:26:00 | <Shiranai> | Hello, I'm trying to get vscode to work with haskell LSP, but the extension is telling me that it does not work with my ghc version (8.4.4). Looking at the LSP github it says it works well with 8.10.3 |
| 00:26:23 | <Shiranai> | what's the right way to update haskell platform? I'm using the debian package and that's already the latest version |
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| 00:33:04 | <Shiranai> | nvm can't be done lol nice |
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| 00:35:54 | <monochrom> | 8.4 is probably too old for most purposes |
| 00:36:12 | <monochrom> | HLS is definitely a post-8.6 thing. |
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| 01:06:32 | <erayo> | given a Map, how can I insert multiple values without having to name each intermediate step ? let m1 = insert k1 v1 myMap; let m2 = insert k2 v2 m1; let m3 = insert k3 v3 m2 .... |
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| 01:13:13 | <ephemient> | let m3 = insert k3 v3 $ insert k2 v2 $ insert k1 v2 myMap |
| 01:13:43 | <ephemient> | as the Map is in the final position, it is easy to chain the functions this way |
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| 01:15:19 | <ephemient> | if the incoming key-value pairs are coming from another map, it would be better to use union though |
| 01:15:32 | <xsperry> | erayo, you can also do this if you're just initializing the Map: let m = M.fromList [(k1, v1), ..] |
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| 01:16:03 | <erayo> | ah yeah, looks better already |
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| 01:16:13 | <ephemient> | > M.insert "e" 5 $ M.insert "d" 4 $ M.insert "c" 3 $ M.fromList [("a", 1), ("b", 2)] |
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| 01:16:15 | <lambdabot> | fromList [("a",1),("b",2),("c",3),("d",4),("e",5)] |
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| 01:17:51 | <ephemient> | > M.union (M.fromList [("a", 1), ("b", 2)]) (M.fromList [("c", 3), ("d", 4), ("e", 5)]) |
| 01:17:54 | <lambdabot> | fromList [("a",1),("b",2),("c",3),("d",4),("e",5)] |
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| 01:21:33 | <xsperry> | > foldr (uncurry M.insert) M.empty [("a", 1), ("b", 2)] |
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| 01:21:35 | <lambdabot> | fromList [("a",1),("b",2)] |
| 01:22:43 | <ski> | > foldr (.) id [M.insert "e" 5,M.insert "d" 4,M.insert "c" 3] (M.fromList [("a",1),("b",2)]) |
| 01:22:46 | <lambdabot> | fromList [("a",1),("b",2),("c",3),("d",4),("e",5)] |
| 01:23:13 | <erayo> | what about deletes, if I have a list of keys to delete from a map, is there anything cleaner than $ ? |
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| 01:23:44 | <koz_> | Is there a way to do hex notation for Word8 literals? |
| 01:24:48 | <Uniaika> | koz_: first hack: you can use readHex in base, which gives you a Num |
| 01:24:57 | <koz_> | Uniaika: _literals_ is the key term there. |
| 01:25:06 | <xsperry> | > let m = M.fromList [("a", 1), ("b", 2), ("c", 3)] in foldr M.delete m ["a", "b"] |
| 01:25:06 | <koz_> | I'm not reading an arbitrary runtime value. |
| 01:25:09 | <lambdabot> | fromList [("c",3)] |
| 01:25:17 | <koz_> | I wanna write 0x3bca :: Word8 |
| 01:25:24 | <koz_> | (or equivalent) |
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| 01:26:38 | <erayo> | neet |
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| 01:27:36 | <Uniaika> | koz_: ah this is tricky, everything seems to do something slightly adjacent to what you want |
| 01:27:40 | <Uniaika> | > Haskell 2010 and Haskell 98 allows for integer literals to be given in decimal, octal (prefixed by 0o or 0O), or hexadecimal notation (prefixed by 0x or 0X). |
| 01:27:42 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:69: error: <hint>:1:69: error: parse error on input ‘in’ |
| 01:27:47 | <ski> | > 0x3bca :: Word8 |
| 01:27:50 | <lambdabot> | 202 |
| 01:27:51 | <koz_> | OK, that's what I need. |
| 01:27:58 | <koz_> | > 0x3b :: Word8 |
| 01:28:00 | <lambdabot> | 59 |
| 01:28:02 | <koz_> | :D |
| 01:28:05 | <koz_> | Thanks ski! |
| 01:28:06 | <ski> | > 0xca :: Word8 |
| 01:28:08 | <lambdabot> | 202 |
| 01:28:19 | <koz_> | > 0xff |
| 01:28:21 | <lambdabot> | 255 |
| 01:28:22 | <Uniaika> | > 0xDEADBEEF :: Word8 |
| 01:28:24 | <lambdabot> | 239 |
| 01:28:29 | <koz_> | Yep, this is me forgetting my sizes. |
| 01:28:32 | <koz_> | Thanks all. |
| 01:28:49 | <ski> | > 0xca.2bf :: Double |
| 01:28:52 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 01:28:53 | <lambdabot> | • Variable not in scope: bf |
| 01:28:53 | <lambdabot> | • Perhaps you meant one of these: |
| 01:29:06 | <Uniaika> | ski: HexFloatLitterals |
| 01:29:19 | <Uniaika> | my bad, -XHexFloatLiterals |
| 01:29:26 | <Uniaika> | https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/glasgow_exts.html#extension-HexFloatLiterals |
| 01:30:30 | <jollygood2> | wasn't there an extension for allowing more than one pattern match in case that share single body? |
| 01:30:49 | <ski> | "the base the exponent is 2 (not 16)" :( |
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| 01:31:36 | <ski> | jollygood2 : afaik, there's been no implementation work on disjunctive / "or"- patterns |
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| 01:47:12 | <ephemient> | has there even been a proposal? I don't think I've seen one |
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| 01:58:31 | <monochrom> | ski: I don't think that's a problem. Actually that's a possible benefit. People write hex when they really have binary in mind but just can't be bothered to read/write a long string. 0xABCp3 being 0xABC * 2^3 is probably what most people want to begin with. |
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| 02:00:04 | <monochrom> | What I consider a problem is that 1p10 means 2^ten not 2^sixteen. |
| 02:01:00 | <monochrom> | err 0x1p10. 1p10 is a syntax error heh |
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| 02:26:01 | <Err> | anyone around? |
| 02:27:04 | <maerwald> | No, just idling |
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| 02:27:58 | <threestrikes> | are there any good resources to help me better understand how to incorporate a module into something I've written? |
| 02:28:11 | <threestrikes> | I'm having a hard time understanding how to properly use data types someone else has written. For example, I'm looking at the System.CPU Library but I don't understand how to get useful information from it. |
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| 02:28:46 | <maerwald> | looks pretty straight forward |
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| 02:30:26 | <threestrikes> | The only thing I've been successful with using is the getCPUs function. I'm running into data type mismatches when I try to use things like physicalProcessors. |
| 02:30:41 | <maerwald> | getCPUs >>= putStrLn . show |
| 02:31:31 | <maerwald> | fmap physicalProcessors $ getCPUs |
| 02:32:10 | <threestrikes> | why does it have to be written that way? |
| 02:32:18 | <maerwald> | It seems to me you're not familiar with Monads and IO |
| 02:32:26 | <threestrikes> | That's where I'm having a disconnect |
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| 02:32:58 | <maerwald> | There are a couple thousand monad tutorials out there, many of which feature mexican cuisine |
| 02:33:02 | <threestrikes> | I can try to explain what I know and can you please correct me and point me in the right direction to understand more? |
| 02:33:56 | <threestrikes> | I'm clueless on Monads but IO to me is basically when you need to interact with the outside world. |
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| 02:34:13 | <maerwald> | https://www.cis.upenn.edu/~cis194/spring13/lectures.html there's a monad lecture there, also make sure to look at functor and applicative beforehand |
| 02:34:19 | <threestrikes> | For example if you need to display something to the screen it would need to use IO |
| 02:34:35 | <monochrom> | See my I/O tutorial: http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/IO.xhtml |
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| 02:35:13 | <threestrikes> | Thanks :) |
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| 02:46:00 | <Err> | may i have some guide line how to use goper-proxy |
| 02:46:07 | <Err> | im totally confused |
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| 09:40:57 | <kuribas> | Wondering about boring haskell: let's say I use recordlabels. So I make an empty datatype "data Label a". Then I can write #"my_label", instead of (Label :: Label "my_label"). How would that be hard to understand? |
| 09:41:20 | <kuribas> | erm should be #my_label |
| 09:41:35 | <merijn> | kuribas: Because most people don't use recordlabels |
| 09:41:38 | <merijn> | :p |
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| 09:41:49 | <kuribas> | merijn: that takes 2 minutes to explain |
| 09:42:06 | <kuribas> | and they need to know that a symbol is a type level string |
| 09:42:09 | <Rembane> | kuribas: What?! Can you do that?! Sweet! :D |
| 09:42:23 | <kuribas> | Rembane: :-) |
| 09:42:45 | <Rembane> | kuribas: In what situations do you use #"my_label" or the longer equivalent? |
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| 09:43:42 | <kuribas> | Rembane: sorry, #"my_label" was my mistake |
| 09:44:19 | <kuribas> | though it would have been nice |
| 09:44:26 | <Rembane> | kuribas: No worries, reread my question but replace #"my_label" with #my_label. :) |
| 09:44:46 | <kuribas> | Rembane: on anything with the IsLabel constraint |
| 09:45:00 | <kuribas> | class IsLabel (x :: Symbol) a where fromLabel :: a |
| 09:45:17 | <ephemient> | eh, if you want the string version for some reason (not sure why) you can write `fromLabel @"my_label"` |
| 09:45:42 | <Rembane> | kuribas: Got it, cool! |
| 09:45:56 | <kuribas> | so instance IsLabel x (Label x) where fromLabel = Label |
| 09:46:10 | <ephemient> | overloaded labels doesn't seem all that useful without something that actually makes use of them (lens?) |
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| 09:47:56 | <kuribas> | it's still useful as a replacement for Proxy |
| 09:49:04 | <ephemient> | it did remind me to check on the RecordDotSyntax proposal just now… accepted but not yet implemented, it seems |
| 09:49:25 | <kuribas> | (Proxy :: Proxy "foo") is very verbose |
| 09:49:40 | <kuribas> | Proxy @"foo" is better, but #foo is even better :-) |
| 09:49:51 | <kuribas> | it's light syntactic fluff, but IMO it makes code more readable |
| 09:50:37 | <kuribas> | ephemient: yes, I use it to refer to record fields in a generic function. |
| 09:51:00 | <kuribas> | I suppose the biggest mistake is that haskell has no first class fields. |
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| 10:08:04 | <kuribas> | otherwise this wouldn't have been necessary |
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| 10:21:21 | <tomjaguarpaw> | https://matrix.hackage.haskell.org/#/package/opaleye-sqlite/0.0.1.0/ghc-7.6.3@1593023458 |
| 10:21:31 | <tomjaguarpaw> | ^^ does anyone know how "Click the button above" is supposed to work? |
| 10:24:17 | <merijn> | tomjaguarpaw: It doesn't seem too :p |
| 10:24:49 | <tomjaguarpaw> | Thanks, I guess I am/Firefox is not going mad |
| 10:25:12 | <merijn> | tomjaguarpaw: It's supposed to be the "Fail deps" button, but that doesn't load anything :p |
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| 10:28:18 | <merijn> | tomjaguarpaw: Looks like one of your dependencies f-ed up it's bounds :) |
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| 10:29:12 | <merijn> | tomjaguarpaw: should easy enough to reproduce by copying the index-state and grabbing 7.6.3 :p |
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| 10:31:20 | <tomjaguarpaw> | I suspect fixing the build matrix might be easier than grabbing 7.6.3 |
| 10:31:34 | <merijn> | :p |
| 10:31:51 | <merijn> | tomjaguarpaw: You could try queueing a new build and see if that works? |
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| 10:32:45 | <merijn> | rats |
| 10:33:23 | <merijn> | I was gonna check the old failing output for one of my packages, but I already fixed the build plan of everything and can't find it >.> |
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| 10:35:12 | <merijn> | Although I wholly support any fixes/improvements to the matrix builder ;) |
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| 10:57:29 | <kuribas> | what's the adjective for monoid? |
| 10:57:32 | <kuribas> | monoidal? |
| 10:57:34 | <kuribas> | monoidic? |
| 10:57:41 | <kuribas> | monoidical? |
| 10:57:43 | <c_wraith> | monoidal is standard |
| 10:58:16 | <kuribas> | ok, thanks |
| 11:00:01 | <c_wraith> | if you want non-standard options for entertainment purposes, may I suggest monoidric? |
| 11:00:32 | <kuribas> | you may, but I prefer not to confuse people :) |
| 11:01:20 | <c_wraith> | I suppose if it's a new term for the audience, it's better to avoid that :) |
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| 11:02:21 | <kuribas> | I already saw scared looks from mentioning Monoid |
| 11:03:04 | <c_wraith> | "joinything" |
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| 11:04:48 | <kuribas> | Applicative = runny thing? |
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| 11:05:02 | <kuribas> | or paralelly thing |
| 11:05:10 | <kuribas> | and monad = sequentallything |
| 11:05:25 | <c_wraith> | monad = endofunctor joinything |
| 11:07:09 | <kuribas> | joinything in the arrowything of selfreferentiallythingies |
| 11:08:22 | ← | Bjornar parts (bjornargh@cassarossa.samfundet.no) ("WeeChat 2.3") |
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| 11:08:51 | <kuribas> | hmm, monoid is an order preserving joinything... |
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| 11:21:48 | <kritzefitz> | `join` of course works on sequentiallythings, not joinythings. |
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| 11:29:22 | <kuribas> | kritzefitz: the joinything is the selfreferentiallything |
| 11:30:28 | <kuribas> | at type level, something like: (IO '<> IO) a |
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| 11:31:19 | <kritzefitz> | I think I'm too confuse to continue participating in this conversation. |
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| 11:31:48 | <kuribas> | kritzefitz: join itself isn't the monoid |
| 11:31:58 | <kuribas> | it's the type of of join which is the monoid |
| 11:32:22 | <kuribas> | but haskell lacks this expressiveness |
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| 11:34:47 | <kuribas> | IO (IO a) is isomorphic to Compose IO IO a |
| 11:35:02 | <kuribas> | so taking the two IO's into a single one is a type level monoid operation |
| 11:35:29 | <kritzefitz> | Ah, yes. |
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| 11:37:50 | <kritzefitz> | But still, if you have some joinything you can't generally apply `join` to it. |
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| 11:44:20 | <kuribas> | join is badly named |
| 11:44:47 | <kuribas> | squash would be better :) |
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| 11:47:04 | <int-e> | > join [[1,2],[3,4,5],[],[6,7]] -- probably inspired by this, i.e., a synonym for concat? |
| 11:47:06 | <lambdabot> | [1,2,3,4,5,6,7] |
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| 11:53:51 | <ArConan> | I don't quite understand the words `left associated` and `fixity declaration` |
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| 11:55:04 | <ArConan> | In my textbooks, they annotate each other |
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| 11:57:31 | <ArConan> | >:-: |
| 11:57:45 | <ArConan> | >:t (:-:) |
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| 11:59:33 | <ArConan> | What does `fixity` mean? |
| 11:59:55 | <kuribas> | ArConan: infix, prefix, postfix, ... |
| 12:00:17 | <kuribas> | > (+) 1 2 -- prefix |
| 12:00:21 | <lambdabot> | 3 |
| 12:00:23 | <kuribas> | > 1 + 2 -- infix |
| 12:00:26 | <lambdabot> | 3 |
| 12:00:37 | <kuribas> | no postfix in haskell I think... |
| 12:01:29 | <ArConan> | er.....and why fixity make |
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| 12:01:45 | <ArConan> | >a :-: (List a) |
| 12:01:49 | <ArConan> | equal to |
| 12:01:59 | <ArConan> | >Cons a(List a) |
| 12:02:01 | <ArConan> | ? |
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| 12:05:30 | <bor0> | hi. I have implemented a very simple imperative programming language in Haskell (per https://softwarefoundations.cis.upenn.edu/lf-current/Imp.html) and now I want to implement Hoare logic on top of it. implementing it at the meta level (Haskell) is easy, but I am trying to incorporate it into the object level |
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| 12:06:15 | <kuribas> | ArConan: depends on the definition of :-: |
| 12:06:17 | <bor0> | I am a bit confused as to how to approach this. before Hoare I have `eval :: Context -> Command -> Context`. now after Hoare, I can either have `eval :: Context -> Command -> Either String Context` or leave `eval` as it is and implement a `hoareCheck` function |
| 12:06:26 | <kuribas> | ArConan: I suppose :-: is a type synonym for Cons? |
| 12:06:51 | <bor0> | I want a "compile" step before I run any evaluations but it seems I _need_ to run evaluations to compare pre/post conditions.. |
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| 12:08:21 | <bor0> | if I don't do it with a "compile" step it's basically runtime assertions which I don't think are hard to implement |
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| 12:10:41 | <ArConan> | kuribas: my textbook only mentioned `infixr 5 :-:` as interpretion. |
| 12:10:59 | <kuribas> | ArConan: it should be defined somewhere |
| 12:12:07 | <ArConan> | let me try.... |
| 12:12:49 | <ArConan> | >let a= 3 :-: 4 :-: Empty |
| 12:12:58 | <ArConan> | >a |
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| 12:13:55 | <kuribas> | > let (:-:) = (:) in 3 :-: 4 :-: [] |
| 12:13:58 | <lambdabot> | error: Not in scope: data constructor ‘:-:’ |
| 12:14:08 | <ArConan> | er....seems right |
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| 12:14:26 | <ArConan> | it should be defined somewhere |
| 12:14:38 | <kuribas> | right, :-: is a data constructor operator |
| 12:15:11 | <kuribas> | so it will be defined in a data declaration |
| 12:15:27 | <kuribas> | any operator starting with ':' is a data constructor |
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| 12:15:41 | <opqdonut> | except : |
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| 12:16:06 | <kuribas> | (:) could be considered a data constructor, no? |
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| 12:16:20 | <opqdonut> | errr yeah ignore what I just said |
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| 12:17:37 | <merijn> | kuribas: It *is* one :p |
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| 12:17:48 | <merijn> | Just not a user-definable one |
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| 12:20:02 | <kuribas> | right |
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| 12:37:27 | <kritzefitz> | I recently uploaded a package (reflex-gi-gtk) to hackage. I thought that would trigger builds in matrix CI, but https://matrix.hackage.haskell.org/#/package/reflex-gi-gtk doesn't show anything. What's going on there? |
| 12:38:02 | <Uniaika> | kritzefitz: when did you upload it? |
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| 12:38:23 | <kritzefitz> | Uniaika, 2021-01-05T21:13:29Z |
| 12:38:45 | <Uniaika> | indeed that's last week |
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| 12:39:09 | <Uniaika> | kritzefitz: ask the fine folks on #haskell-infrastructure |
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| 12:39:35 | <kritzefitz> | Uniaika, thanks, will do. |
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| 13:43:20 | <Uniaika> | I feel like `async` is not the proper primitive for long-lived green threads |
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| 13:43:40 | <Uniaika> | my usecase is that I have a Spock webserver |
| 13:43:44 | <merijn> | It isn't, no, imo |
| 13:44:03 | <Uniaika> | but alongside of it, I want to run a worker that fetches jobs from postgresql, executes them, all that jazz |
| 13:44:17 | <Uniaika> | I've tried Ki but it doesn't seem to work as well |
| 13:44:25 | <Uniaika> | (even though the types align, what a betrayal) |
| 13:44:33 | <Uniaika> | merijn: shall I go back to bare forkIO? |
| 13:44:48 | <merijn> | tbh, I don't there's a good solution atm |
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| 13:44:59 | <Uniaika> | … |
| 13:45:00 | <Uniaika> | seriously? |
| 13:45:01 | <merijn> | bare forkIO is a mess to get the resource management right |
| 13:45:04 | <Uniaika> | fuck |
| 13:45:14 | <Uniaika> | yeah but I don't have resources to manage |
| 13:45:20 | <merijn> | Uniaika: I use forkIO myself for some stuff, but properly managing it is *hard* |
| 13:45:28 | <Uniaika> | shit |
| 13:45:32 | <merijn> | Uniaika: Sure you do: Your helper thread |
| 13:45:42 | <Uniaika> | okay fair, indeed |
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| 13:45:59 | <Uniaika> | well I'll be damned |
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| 13:46:18 | <merijn> | Uniaika: You should see the horrific logic in my parMap thing-a-majig |
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| 13:46:26 | <Uniaika> | I know some people who have two binaries (with the same library code between the two) |
| 13:46:36 | <Uniaika> | merijn: :( |
| 13:47:17 | <merijn> | Uniaika: https://github.com/merijn/broadcast-chan/blob/master/broadcast-chan/BroadcastChan/Extra.hs#L138-L219 |
| 13:47:31 | <merijn> | Uniaika: As exercise for the reader, spot the (as of yet unfixed) race condition >.> |
| 13:47:52 | <Uniaika> | merijn: I've been nurtured with Erlang :( |
| 13:48:22 | <Uniaika> | grmbl |
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| 13:48:27 | <Uniaika> | I'm going to go to the shop |
| 13:48:43 | <Uniaika> | this is messed up, with have a superb runtime for that kind of things |
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| 15:29:03 | <raehik> | Would anyone know where to start troubleshooting running Hspec tests on Windows? |
| 15:29:50 | <raehik> | I've got a bizarre ExitFailure (-1073741515) and that's all. Compiles, but immediately fails on running test suite |
| 15:30:03 | <raehik> | handful of other public repos I ran worked just fine |
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| 15:30:55 | <sm[m]> | you could stick in trace calls to figure out where it's dying and what the values are |
| 15:31:04 | <sm[m]> | or try to run it from ghci |
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| 15:31:15 | <raehik> | ah great, how do? |
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| 15:31:19 | <raehik> | I only tried stack -v |
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| 15:36:10 | <sm[m]> | @hoogle Debug.Trace |
| 15:36:10 | <lambdabot> | module Debug.Trace |
| 15:36:10 | <lambdabot> | module TextShow.Debug.Trace |
| 15:36:10 | <lambdabot> | module Rebase.Debug.Trace |
| 15:37:06 | <sm[m]> | @haddock Debug.Trace ? |
| 15:37:07 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
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| 15:37:28 | <sm[m]> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.1.0/docs/Debug-Trace.html |
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| 15:39:06 | <raehik> | Thanks sm[m] , also learned you can load tests in ghci |
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| 15:39:42 | <sm[m]> | that's good, reloading in ghci will save you time. You can also rerun them with ghcid |
| 15:41:06 | <raehik> | picked up an access violation attempting to read 0x10 ? that looks suspect |
| 15:41:45 | <raehik> | it would make sense to me that the strange error was caused by a bad C lib so yeah now I have something to go on. thank you! |
| 15:42:37 | <sm[m]> | there have been some GHC-on-windows bugs with a message like that. Check your GHC version, 8.10.3 or 8.8.2 might be good |
| 15:43:06 | <raehik> | you're right I read about those, I miiiight be on an offending version |
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| 15:43:07 | <sm[m]> | and maybe compare it in WSL |
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| 16:58:32 | <afreak> | is it possible to set some property to all floating windows in xmonad? like setting something silimar to this https://github.com/i3/i3/issues/2223 ? would be nice to only have shadows on floating windows |
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| 16:58:45 | <afreak> | xprop property |
| 16:59:16 | <Uniaika> | merijn: actually, async does the job for my usecase |
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| 16:59:43 | <afreak> | ops wrong channel, sorry |
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| 17:10:08 | <kuribas> | merijn: why don't you use async? |
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| 17:11:58 | <qpper> | hello, is there any way to write "f { value }" instead of "f SumType { value }"? |
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| 17:15:03 | <kuribas> | what's thats supposed to do? |
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| 17:16:46 | <qpper> | call the function f with a SumType. SumType consists of a single field named value |
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| 17:17:06 | <kuribas> | so "f $ SumType value"? |
| 17:17:20 | <kuribas> | or f (SumType value)? |
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| 17:18:16 | <kuribas> | or if you have a record f SumType{value = 3}, though sumtypes with fields are weird. |
| 17:18:21 | <qpper> | SumType value allows to be called with a variable named value2, I want to ensure that the function is called with the right variable names |
| 17:18:55 | <kuribas> | why wouldn't it be called with the right name? |
| 17:19:08 | <kuribas> | you pass the name to the function... |
| 17:19:15 | <kuribas> | there is no other way in haskell. |
| 17:19:32 | ski | doesn't know what "SumType value allows to be called with a variable named value2" means |
| 17:19:51 | <qpper> | this is what I mean: f (SumType value2) |
| 17:20:01 | <qpper> | this does not cause an error |
| 17:20:28 | <kuribas> | good, so what is the problem then? |
| 17:21:12 | <qpper> | it's error prone, if I have foo and bar with the same type, i can pass both of them |
| 17:21:53 | <kuribas> | qpper: we cannot help you without more context |
| 17:22:11 | <kuribas> | qpper: try to explain what you are doing, and perhaps paste the code somewhere |
| 17:22:47 | <kuribas> | the problem you are solving, not the solution you have that doesn't work... |
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| 17:24:55 | <kuribas> | qpper: or do you mean newtype instead of sumtype? |
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| 17:28:51 | <qpper> | https://gist.github.com/theqp/8f049861498df238f398b87c8e401fc4 |
| 17:29:45 | <qpper> | if you speak typescript I can show an example from that language: "f({myField})" |
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| 17:32:39 | <f-a> | hello. If I have an hexadecimal number like 0x22, how do I get a bit representation (say, a list of 8 bools)? I bet there is something in Base, but don’t know what to hoogle |
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| 17:35:15 | <ski> | > [testBit 0x22 i | i <- [0 .. 7]] |
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| 17:35:18 | <lambdabot> | [False,True,False,False,False,True,False,False] |
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| 17:35:41 | <f-a> | ski: it is what I ended up doing, I thought there was a, uhh, dedicated type but that would do |
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| 17:38:50 | <idnar> | > fromMaybe <*> stripPrefix "x" $ "xfoo" |
| 17:38:52 | <lambdabot> | "foo" |
| 17:38:57 | <idnar> | > fromMaybe <*> stripPrefix "x" $ "foo" |
| 17:38:59 | <lambdabot> | "foo" |
| 17:39:05 | <idnar> | ohh |
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| 17:44:19 | <ski> | cute :) |
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| 17:53:24 | <merijn> | qpper: The names on line 15 and the names inside 'f' are entirely unrelated, so your question doesn't really make sense |
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| 18:08:20 | <monochrom> | merijn: But NamedFieldPuns causes MyData{myField} to be legal and mean MyData{myField=myField} |
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| 18:09:27 | <monochrom> | To be sure, "f {myField}" is a pipe dream. Even in other languages. |
| 18:09:41 | <merijn> | monochrom: Sure |
| 18:10:18 | <merijn> | monochrom: But that doesn't change anything from "what variable you construct a type with is irrelevant when pattern matching" |
| 18:10:37 | <monochrom> | I don't understand "shows a syntax error and that is the purpose". Why is syntax error anyone's purpose? |
| 18:11:22 | <monochrom> | Like you want to put "I am an expert in making syntax errors in C, Haskell, and PHP" on your CV? |
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| 18:11:30 | <merijn> | monochrom: Because he's conflating the name of the variable used to construct the SumType with the pattern match |
| 18:12:45 | <merijn> | monochrom: "MyData{otherfield}" should be a syntax error, because you're constructing with a variable that's not named "myfield", which is of course not really sensible, since the name of variables used to construct something is entirely unrelated to what you can construct |
| 18:12:56 | <merijn> | Is the logic I have divined from this example |
| 18:13:34 | <monochrom> | I think the two of us have beaten the horse to death twic. |
| 18:13:49 | <merijn> | ;) |
| 18:14:03 | <monochrom> | Time to cook it and enjoy the game meat. |
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| 18:14:15 | <monochrom> | Do you like roast or do you like stew? |
| 18:14:42 | <merijn> | Stew |
| 18:14:49 | <merijn> | that's what I'm making tomorrow :p |
| 18:14:59 | <merijn> | With a nice belgian double :p |
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| 18:47:50 | <qpper> | merijn exacly, that is what i want |
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| 18:48:39 | <merijn> | qpper: That's impossible |
| 18:49:21 | <qpper> | so the best tradeoff is "f SomeType {someField}" if I want to ensure it is called with the right name? |
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| 18:49:35 | <merijn> | Why does the name matter? |
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| 18:50:04 | <qpper> | because i don't have to check i really called with the correct variable |
| 18:50:18 | <merijn> | Define "correct" |
| 18:50:42 | <monochrom> | What's wrong with "let x=1 in f MyData{myField=x}" which is perfectly explicit and clear and unambiguous and intuitive? |
| 18:51:09 | <monochrom> | Well, unless your "intuitive" requires ambiguity and sloppiness and guessing games. |
| 18:51:33 | <qpper> | nothing, also nothing wrong with f MyData x, but sometimes it is better to enforce it |
| 18:51:54 | <merijn> | If only we hade some system that could enforce things at compile time... |
| 18:51:55 | <monochrom> | Sorry, enforce what? |
| 18:52:28 | <qpper> | enforce fooValue is not passed to a function with a parameter name barValue |
| 18:52:38 | <merijn> | Why is the name relevant? |
| 18:52:48 | <monochrom> | That's what MyData{myField=x} is for. |
| 18:52:58 | <qpper> | because there are other variables in the scope with the same type |
| 18:53:07 | <monochrom> | In "MyData{myField=x}" we see that it is not "MyData{oops=x}" |
| 18:53:22 | <merijn> | qpper: Well, give them a different type, then? |
| 18:54:02 | <monochrom> | Also, there is no "parameter name" in Haskell. |
| 18:54:10 | <monochrom> | Are you sure you're in the right channel? |
| 18:54:11 | <qpper> | merijn that makes the code even more verbose than MyData{myfield} |
| 18:54:46 | <qpper> | monochrom i know, field name is the right word |
| 18:55:21 | <monochrom> | There is no "pass a field name to a function" either. |
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| 18:57:15 | <qpper> | using newTypes instead of records like that is a better tradeoff |
| 18:57:28 | <monochrom> | I don't understand why this is verbose. Verbose compared to what? |
| 18:57:59 | <monochrom> | In all other languages the part about {field1=x, field2=y, field3=z} is unavoidable. For example look at SML, Java, and Python. |
| 18:58:35 | <monochrom> | The only part you might rightfully complain about is the "MyData" part which those other languages don't impose on you. |
| 18:58:44 | <monochrom> | But you are not complaining about "MyData". |
| 18:58:59 | <monochrom> | So I don't understand the logic. Unless you simply want the computer to be telepathic. |
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| 18:59:53 | <merijn> | monochrom: Most people want that :p |
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| 19:00:54 | <monochrom> | Well, yeah, and that brings us to the next whole new level. |
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| 19:01:18 | <monochrom> | If one simply wants the computer to be telepathic, why is one learning any programming language at all? |
| 19:01:49 | <geekosaur> | actually, I don't, nless that includes explaining to the next person who looks at the code (who might well be me) what I was thinking at the time |
| 19:03:05 | <qpper> | compared to the typescript example f({myField}) |
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| 19:05:52 | <monochrom> | And my understanding of your other sentences is that you are also dissatisfied with "{myField}" because this oh-so-compressed (more like lossy compression) is vulnerable to "what if I have a typo and mistakenly write {oops}". |
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| 19:06:54 | <dolio> | If the record constructor is 1 letter, the Haskell version is the same number of characters. |
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| 19:07:58 | <monochrom> | inb4 "but one-letter names are unreadable meaningless math-nerd notation" |
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| 19:09:34 | <monochrom> | I actually agree that one-letter names can be unergonomic. |
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| 19:10:05 | <monochrom> | But has anyone extrapolate that to conclude: therefore, zero-length names are even worse? |
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| 19:12:51 | <dolio> | Well, they might not be. |
| 19:13:50 | <dolio> | Focusing on the call ignores other sources of verbosity that would come from anonymous records, though. |
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| 19:14:54 | <dolio> | Like, enumerating the fields as a type is more verbose. |
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| 19:19:38 | <dolio> | Mostly I don't get the preoccupation with record syntax, though. Direct record munging makes up a very small portion of my code. |
| 19:20:40 | <merijn> | dolio: But that's what everyone talks about on the social medias! |
| 19:21:28 | <merijn> | Which clearly means it's the most important thing |
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| 19:23:59 | <dolio> | Direct record stuff is way more significant in my Agda code, because it has copattern matching, and because the termination checker isn't smart enough to allow you to factor out as much code. |
| 19:25:07 | <dolio> | Also probably because all my agda code is trivial compared to Haskell code. |
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| 19:27:50 | <hpc> | what we really need to be discussing more is the lexical syntax of comments :P |
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| 19:32:16 | <monochrom> | Social media record all your comments. :nod: |
| 19:33:04 | <merijn> | monochrom: https://twitter.com/steveklabnik/status/1349362478237540354 |
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| 19:33:27 | <monochrom> | \∩/ |
| 19:33:38 | <monochrom> | There is an smbc for that, too. |
| 19:34:27 | <monochrom> | https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/app-3 |
| 19:35:17 | <monochrom> | ObHaskell I'm improving my type inference tutorial. |
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| 20:12:48 | <ep1ctetus> | I was just talking to a colleague about how records look so verbose in Haskell because functions are so concise |
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| 20:38:26 | <justsomeguy> | dolio: I'm starting to think that we shouldn't have record types in the first place. Leave off a field, and it isn't reflected in the type signature. Why not use Maps, instead? I'm only a noob, though, so I'm probably overlooking something. |
| 20:38:58 | <justsomeguy> | (Or sets or tuples or...) |
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| 20:48:02 | <ski> | we don't have record types |
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| 20:50:39 | <monochrom> | You cannot put both True and "hello" into the same Set to represent the tuple (True, "hello"). Similarly Map. |
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| 20:52:56 | <justsomeguy> | ski: Should I be calling them record constructors, instead? |
| 20:53:09 | <justsomeguy> | Or just records.. |
| 20:53:15 | <geekosaur> | record syntax for product types? |
| 20:53:21 | <ski> | records, or record syntax ? |
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| 20:57:48 | <ski> | (you could say record syntax for data constructors, if you want a mouthful) |
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| 21:27:12 | <dolio> | I could definitely live without them, but they're convenient for some things. |
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| 21:29:58 | <dolio> | But for instance, I generally use them as some core implementation, and build abstractions around manipulating them, and then use the abstractions. I don't sprinkle record code all over the place. |
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| 21:32:52 | <dolio> | And I don't exactly understand why other people can't do similarly, other than that they're just copying their style from JS or something into Haskell. |
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| 21:38:57 | <dolio> | Similar to people who show up asking how to do heterogeneous lists, because untyped languages don't require you to sort that out. It's usually not that difficult in practice to not design things in a way that require seriously heterogeneous lists. |
| 21:40:22 | <dolio> | Records are more handy and less onerous than heterogeneous lists, so I'm more hesitant to put them in that category. But it seems like overly focusing on record-related syntax might be a similar phenomenon. |
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| 21:51:37 | <merijn> | dolio: The only real problem I have with records will be fixed Real Soo Now! \o/ |
| 21:51:50 | <merijn> | -XNoFieldSelectors, whoo! |
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| 21:55:18 | <ski> | it's an improvement, compared to the current situation |
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| 21:56:07 | <yushyin> | NoFieldSelectors is nice! |
| 21:56:41 | <merijn> | Just gonna go and throw -XNoFieldSelectors + -XNamedFieldPuns and all my record code and be happy |
| 21:56:47 | <merijn> | s/and/at |
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| 21:59:53 | <koz_> | merijn: When's NoFieldSelectors landing? |
| 22:00:19 | <merijn> | 9.0 or 9.2, I think? |
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| 22:00:56 | <merijn> | So, anywhere between next month and next year given the "predictability" of GHC's release schedule ;) |
| 22:01:16 | <koz_> | merijn: Is it on the list for 9.0? |
| 22:02:15 | <merijn> | Let me teach you a super convenient trick for discovering the answer to that question! ;) |
| 22:02:46 | <monochrom> | Please tell. I want to know that trick too. |
| 22:02:53 | <yushyin> | koz_: I don't see it here https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/status/ghc-9.0.1 but I guess the wiki is outofdate anyways |
| 22:03:10 | <merijn> | monochrom: It involves google and the string "ghc 9.0 release notes" :p |
| 22:03:12 | <koz_> | yushyin: If it ever loads rofl. |
| 22:03:14 | <monochrom> | (Does it also work for "when will dependent haskell arrive?" :) ) |
| 22:03:25 | <monochrom> | Oh darn, that. |
| 22:03:26 | <koz_> | monochrom: I have a heuristic for this! |
| 22:03:31 | <yushyin> | yes the haskell gitlab ist SUPER slow :/ |
| 22:03:35 | <koz_> | If you say 'in the next 10 years', you'll be right 80% of the time. |
| 22:04:01 | <merijn> | koz_: If I say in the next 300 years I'll be either right or too dead to care about being wrong! |
| 22:04:16 | <koz_> | merijn: I only truck in _useful_ heuristics. :P |
| 22:04:30 | <monochrom> | I was hoping for "ghc X release notes such that it has dependent types [for example]" where X is a Prolog-style unknown to be solved/unified for and give me the answer. |
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| 22:06:03 | <merijn> | koz_: I don't, that's why I'm getting a PhD!* |
| 22:06:06 | <merijn> | * - probably |
| 22:06:18 | <koz_> | merijn: Explains why I dropped out of mine pretty well! |
| 22:06:30 | <merijn> | koz_: Ah...so you're the smart one of us >.> |
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| 22:06:49 | <koz_> | If you say so. |
| 22:07:10 | <yushyin> | koz_: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/merge_requests/4743 |
| 22:07:11 | <merijn> | Someone: "I have a PhD!" Normal people: "Wow! You must be so smart!" |
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| 22:07:31 | <merijn> | Someone "I have a PhD!" Other academics: "ah...so you're dumb and stubborn too, huh?" |
| 22:07:48 | <yushyin> | :D |
| 22:07:57 | <koz_> | merijn: So very much this. |
| 22:08:06 | <monochrom> | I thought other academics were like "duh, practically everyone does". |
| 22:08:15 | <merijn> | monochrom: Well, that too |
| 22:08:18 | <koz_> | monochrom: Depends who you hang out with I guess. |
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| 22:08:26 | <koz_> | (you-plural in this case) |
| 22:08:36 | <koz_> | (y'all) |
| 22:08:59 | <dolio> | There's a 9.0 rc out, you can build it and see if NoFieldSelectors is in. :) |
| 22:09:22 | <dolio> | Probably not going to change in a final release. |
| 22:09:34 | <merijn> | koz_: One of my best liked tweets was (in response to someone polling for "more gender neutral" replacements for "guys") was pointing out that "you peons" is gender neutral >.> |
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| 22:09:58 | <koz_> | merijn: FELLOW MEATBAGS also works. |
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| 22:41:12 | <ADG1089> | working on development of an ecommerce site at work, would reallly like to haskell for some parts but cto wouldn't agree due to availabulity of haskell devs - python or nodejs |
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| 22:43:39 | <rom1504> | wise decision |
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| 22:51:11 | <koz_> | @pl \_ -> Just x |
| 22:51:11 | <lambdabot> | const (Just x) |
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| 22:53:10 | <koz_> | @pl \t -> fs t <*> xs t |
| 22:53:10 | <lambdabot> | liftM2 (<*>) fs xs |
| 22:53:18 | <koz_> | Ah, liftA2. |
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| 22:59:04 | <dibblego> | I once had to hire 5 haskell devs. I had 130 applicants. A year later, another 5, 180 applicants. The other guys were looking for a java dev for two years, 3 applicants, one pulled out, one was very unsuitable, the other got the job. It's a lie. |
| 22:59:25 | <merijn> | Like everything "it depends" |
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| 23:00:07 | <merijn> | Where are you? How much are you paying? How skilled do your require them to be? Are you willing to invest anything in training? the list goes on and on |
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| 23:01:31 | <dibblego> | all great questions, and the point is that any claim that "it is hard to hire haskell devs" must also be accompanied by "also python devs" and "also java devs", otherwise, it's just a lie thought up in the shower imo |
| 23:01:46 | <merijn> | Hiring is hard period |
| 23:02:16 | <dibblego> | right, so let's just use the appropriate tool to solve the problem, instead of relying on management doing a survey in the shower |
| 23:02:44 | <Uniaika> | the trick is to pick people who are ready to learn |
| 23:03:01 | <merijn> | Uniaika: That requires investing in people, and that's so 20th century ;) |
| 23:03:02 | <Uniaika> | and have a local guru that produces good enough tooling tailored to what you do |
| 23:03:15 | <Uniaika> | merijn: lol, McKinsey recommends firing people instead |
| 23:03:26 | <merijn> | Uniaika: I recommend we all unionise >.> |
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| 23:05:18 | <Uniaika> | merijn: I'm already in a union, what about you? :P |
| 23:05:27 | <Uniaika> | oh dear, it's already late |
| 23:05:31 | <Uniaika> | see you tomorrow! |
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| 23:37:18 | <L29Ah> | is it me or cabal-install ignores --package-db=clear? https://dpaste.com/2YYAQ8FBF |
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