Home freenode/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2021-01-15 (freenode/#haskell)

00:00:00 × niekvandepas quits (~niekvande@dhcp-077-249-088-250.chello.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
00:00:20 → merijn joins (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
00:03:11 × royal_screwup21 quits (52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Quit: Connection closed)
00:03:27 × Wuzzy quits (~Wuzzy@p5790eb14.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × shatriff quits (~vitaliish@176-52-216-242.irishtelecom.com) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × ericholscher quits (~ericholsc@185.163.110.126) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × phasespace quits (~sar@89-162-33-21.fiber.signal.no) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × sm2n_ quits (~sm2n@bras-base-hmtnon1497w-grc-43-64-231-95-247.dsl.bell.ca) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × jmchael quits (~jmchael@87.112.235.234) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × cheater quits (~user@unaffiliated/cheater) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × jle` quits (~mstksg@unaffiliated/mstksg) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × proteusguy quits (~proteusgu@cm-58-10-154-202.revip7.asianet.co.th) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × fresheyeball quits (~isaac@c-71-237-105-37.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × pfurla quits (~pfurla@ool-182ed2e2.dyn.optonline.net) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × p8m quits (p8m@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/p8m) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × plateau quits (~plateau@51.194.80.91) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × juri_ quits (~juri@178.63.35.222) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × tv quits (~tv@unaffiliated/tv) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × is_null quits (~jpic@pdpc/supporter/professional/is-null) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × lep-delete quits (~lep@94.31.81.93) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × daGrevis quits (~daGrevis@unaffiliated/dagrevis) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × guest111` quits (~user@49.5.6.87) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × SupaYoshi quits (~supayoshi@213-10-140-13.fixed.kpn.net) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × gentauro quits (~gentauro@unaffiliated/gentauro) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × Ishutin quits (~Ishutin@92-249-179-46.pool.digikabel.hu) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × troydm quits (~troydm@unaffiliated/troydm) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × datajerk quits (~datajerk@sense.net) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × aldum quits (~vishera@aldum.pw) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × sajith quits (~sajith@fsf/member/nonzen) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × quintasan quits (~quassel@ubuntu/member/quintasan) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × RusAlex quits (~Chel@unaffiliated/rusalex) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × dave_uy quits (~david@108.61.193.26) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × thecoffemaker quits (~thecoffem@unaffiliated/thecoffemaker) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × lordyod quits (~lordyod@c-67-169-144-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × zfnmxt quits (~zfnmxt@unaffiliated/zfnmxt) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × drewolson quits (~drewolson@64.227.24.16) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × so quits (~so@unaffiliated/so) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × orhan89 quits (~orhan89@151.91.188.35.bc.googleusercontent.com) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × tureba quits (~tureba@tureba.org) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × nshepperd2 quits (~nshepperd@li364-218.members.linode.com) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × duckonomy quits (~duckonomy@177.ip-144-217-84.net) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × todda7 quits (~torstein@ppp-2-84-17-53.home.otenet.gr) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × Profpatsch quits (~Profpatsc@static.88-198-193-255.clients.your-server.de) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × sdressel quits (~sdressel@pwning.de) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × fissureman quits (~quassel@c-73-163-84-25.hsd1.dc.comcast.net) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × dan64 quits (~dan64@dannyadam.com) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × alx741 quits (~alx741@186.178.110.154) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × aidecoe quits (~aidecoe@unaffiliated/aidecoe) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × MidAutumnHotaru quits (~MidAutumn@unaffiliated/midautumnhotaru) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × ep1ctetus quits (~epictetus@ip184-187-162-163.sb.sd.cox.net) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × Rudd0 quits (~Rudd0@185.189.115.103) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × carlomagno1 quits (~cararell@148.87.23.10) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × hololeap quits (~hololeap@unaffiliated/hololeap) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × Foritus quits (~buggery@cpc91316-watf11-2-0-cust68.15-2.cable.virginm.net) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × rotaerk quits (~rotaerk@ender.afternet.org) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × xerox_ quits (~xerox@unaffiliated/xerox) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × jmsx_ quits (~jordan@li1158-85.members.linode.com) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × Athas quits (athas@sigkill.dk) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × MrMobius quits (~MrMobius@208.58.206.154) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × tomku quits (~tomku@unaffiliated/tomku) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × phaul quits (~phaul@ruby/staff/phaul) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × pounce quits (~pounce@ns379743.ip-5-196-70.eu) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × andrew_znc quits (~andrew@andrewyu.org) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × RecursiveG quits (~recursive@li810-210.members.linode.com) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × Kaiepi quits (~Kaiepi@47.54.252.148) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × cyphase quits (~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × nitrix quits (~nitrix@haskell/developer/nitrix) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × haritz quits (~hrtz@unaffiliated/haritz) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × Mzg quits (Mzg@s1.ct8.pl) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × xwvvvvwx quits (xwvvvvwx@gateway/vpn/mullvad/xwvvvvwx) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × hive-mind quits (~hivemind@rrcs-67-53-148-69.west.biz.rr.com) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × Chobbes quits (~Chobbes@unaffiliated/chobbes) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × amiri quits (~amiri@cpe-76-91-154-9.socal.res.rr.com) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × petersen quits (~petersen@redhat/juhp) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × BIG_JIMMY_D quits (~jim@108.61.185.76) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × cohn quits (~noone@unaffiliated/cohn) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × dlam quits (~dlam@dlam.me) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × seanparsons quits (~sean@cpc145088-gill21-2-0-cust281.20-1.cable.virginm.net) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × incertia quits (~incertia@d4-50-26-103.nap.wideopenwest.com) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × gawen quits (~gawen@movzbl.root.sx) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × rembo10 quits (~rembo10@wally.codeshy.com) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × centril quits (~centril@213-66-146-92-no250.tbcn.telia.com) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × texasmynsted quits (~texasmyns@99.96.221.112) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × ps-auxw quits (~arneb@p548c6e54.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × nrdmn9 quits (~nrdmn@95.129.53.118) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × tasuki quits (~tasuki@198.211.120.27) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × bcmiller quits (~bm3719@66.42.95.185) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × afx237_ quits (~afx237@107.170.10.178) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × zyeri quits (zyeri@tilde.team/users/zyeri) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × nek0 quits (~nek0@mail.nek0.eu) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × lnx quits (~irssi@167.71.7.27) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × joel135 quits (sid136450@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vyyhxnmonposoqmu) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × xff0x quits (~xff0x@2001:1a81:528c:9f00:3c4e:11e3:52e1:1997) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × berberman quits (~berberman@unaffiliated/berberman) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × howdoi quits (uid224@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ikuobcyybrkdaaee) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × aplainzetakind quits (~johndoe@captainludd.powered.by.lunarbnc.net) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × Alleria_ quits (~AllahuAkb@2603-7000-3040-0000-21c5-c900-9e1d-bf71.res6.spectrum.com) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × fiQ2 quits (~fiQ@mirkk.ninja) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × yorick quits (~yorick@oftn/oswg-member/yorick) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × echoreply quits (~echoreply@unaffiliated/echoreply) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × kini quits (~kini@unaffiliated/kini) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × tabemann quits (~travisb@2600:1700:7990:24e0:46fa:9bf1:e3c9:a6a) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × whataday quits (~xxx@2400:8902::f03c:92ff:fe60:98d8) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × Orbstheorem quits (~roosember@hellendaal.orbstheorem.ch) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × sphalerite quits (~sphalerit@NixOS/user/lheckemann) (*.net *.split)
00:03:27 × hsiktas[m] quits (hsiktasmat@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ghuclucmencaeidc) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × dh quits (dh@bsd.ee) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × recon_-_ quits (~quassel@2602:febc:0:b6::6ca2) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × elvishjerricco quits (sid237756@NixOS/user/ElvishJerricco) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × orcus- quits (~orcus@unaffiliated/orcus) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × pierrot quits (~pi@unaffiliated/pierrot) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × dequbed quits (~dequbed@2001:bc8:3f24:100::1) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × gOOgler quits (uid125351@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jdvndeteehxffire) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × dwt quits (~dwt@c-98-200-58-177.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × noCheese quits (~nocheese@unaffiliated/nocheese) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × bandali quits (bandali@fsf/emeritus/bandali) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × dani- quits (sid341953@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ntpllqrkvsgxojfo) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × Kamuela quits (sid111576@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sygmzwyrzcdkakla) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × parseval quits (sid239098@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xrspdpklffjsbdan) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × liszt quits (sid336875@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vjevhjtgitwwbjkb) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × stass quits (~stas@2a00:13c0:63:7195::beef) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × ibloom quits (sid350277@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qvdyimokdwsnoffs) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × noan quits (~noan@2604:a880:400:d0::12fc:5001) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × Klumben quits (Nsaiswatch@gateway/shell/panicbnc/x-fomxhgfovyvqanep) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × xacktm quits (xacktm@gateway/shell/panicbnc/x-jvtlirfmskjbwohd) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × JSharp quits (sid4580@wikia/JSharp) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × mankyKitty quits (sid31287@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sisdzlgwpycrovxr) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × whez quits (sid470288@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bovdnbstucgyrclj) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × adamse quits (sid72084@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ntgmpqkvdscewbqi) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × twk- quits (~thewormki@unaffiliated/twk-) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × enemeth79 quits (sid309041@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lvirpivflnhgtbsh) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × ajmcmiddlin quits (sid284402@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cjcxesxeodrcvgsk) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × chessai quits (sid225296@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yhjyupxhhvdvkdtd) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × phaazon quits (~phaazon@2001:41d0:a:fe76::1) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × stylewarning quits (stylewarni@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qyrbdxfrgqvtmbve) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × pja quits (~phil@2a02:8010:6098:0:f2de:f1ff:fe2c:3d9) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × ephemient quits (uid407513@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-niqthzebbrwzruhe) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × iphy quits (sid67735@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mauksswncovsmglx) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × copypasteque quits (~copypaste@2001:41d0:8:b325::1) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × ProofTechnique quits (sid79547@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-svkesokyijyfonih) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × runeks quits (sid21167@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ryjozvleeapnxzus) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × alexknvl quits (sid259568@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jnvjyffojwxkuwuh) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × trevorriles quits (sid469656@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cfgejkqvovtgjbpt) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × sveit quits (~sveit@2001:19f0:ac01:247:5400:ff:fe5c:689f) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × newhoggy quits (sid198874@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qhmnnfjnjtcmfiay) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × idnar quits (sid12240@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nahgmbtmyvioqrjv) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × scav quits (sid309693@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jqpiftkzlvsswiha) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × absence quits (IfjEGObaTi@hildring.pvv.ntnu.no) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × entel quits (uid256215@botters/entel) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × angerman quits (sid209936@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mlhkemfvngmbvuol) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × alunduil quits (alunduil@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uvppjsitsccsdxlk) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × drbrule quits (sid395654@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vjqqnrysmaxqrzkw) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × carter quits (sid14827@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ibvrelberchglxhy) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × koankeeper quits (sid216950@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hjizfwywoqrskybo) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × wildsebastian quits (sid324688@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ectvsfeiiygtpxsd) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × edmundnoble quits (sid229620@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ehmqsocqyidpgjbk) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × nlofaro quits (sid258233@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-euteclalytxdvjpl) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × ^[ quits (sid43445@ircpuzzles/2015/april-fools/sixth/zgrep) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × FMJz____ quits (sid279245@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-obdwznzoluazipat) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × sclv quits (sid39734@haskell/developer/sclv) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × NemesisD quits (sid24071@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-djyvkklsuqfzcevy) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × rizary quits (sid220347@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kpnwyrewkhnqnyhk) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × jetpack_joe quits (sid146137@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vmgmkyseyzxdizaw) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × pasukon quits (sid49097@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-naqadmmjejtzyxsk) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × dexterfoo quits (dexter@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fe86:59ec) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × tomferon[m] quits (tomferonmo@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-noglbyofnphhclbb) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × jamesfielder[m] quits (jamesfield@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hodgerwioachkctf) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × ViCi quits (daniel@10PLM.ro) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × srid quits (sridmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-kurgtyubfeavcpuk) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × siraben quits (sirabenmat@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ompxpchgmuwlofwe) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × rab24ack[m] quits (rab24ackma@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-iypkxumuyyhmektk) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × rednaZ[m] quits (r3dnazmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-psbwjgmwhnbfxpvd) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × ThaEwat quits (thaewraptm@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-zzghdaahzrfpgpjd) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × polux200137 quits (~polux@51.15.169.172) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × operand quits (~operand@is.altijd.moe) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × jbetz quits (sid283648@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mtknylhkbpwnovev) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × metadave quits (sid28102@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ifeexfgbnrtdfxvo) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × bulters quits (uid408399@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wpbfictwjpuyhkie) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × bsima quits (~bsima@simatime.com) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × isacl___ quits (uid13263@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zatkgdiubqivrbyl) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × yushyin quits (bSs9syBAug@karif.server-speed.net) (*.net *.split)
00:03:28 × fl0_id quits (~fl0_id@2a01:4f8:171:4de::40:2) (*.net *.split)
00:03:36 → conal joins (~conal@89.187.164.95)
00:03:49 × tessier quits (~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
00:04:21 × Codaraxis quits (~Codaraxis@91.193.4.10) (Remote host closed the connection)
00:04:28 × systemfault quits (sid267009@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-doohdrkwzcmqbspf) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
00:04:32 → Codaraxis joins (~Codaraxis@91.193.4.10)
00:04:50 → tabemann joins (~travisb@2600:1700:7990:24e0:9229:ae6e:bc97:9587)
00:04:59 → pounce joins (~pounce@ns379743.ip-5-196-70.eu)
00:05:06 → niekvandepas joins (~niekvande@dhcp-077-249-088-250.chello.nl)
00:05:21 → tessier joins (~treed@98.171.210.130)
00:05:21 × tessier quits (~treed@98.171.210.130) (Changing host)
00:05:21 → tessier joins (~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco)
00:05:23 → RusAlex joins (~Chel@unaffiliated/rusalex)
00:05:48 → joel135 joins (sid136450@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vyyhxnmonposoqmu)
00:05:48 → xff0x joins (~xff0x@2001:1a81:528c:9f00:3c4e:11e3:52e1:1997)
00:05:48 → berberman joins (~berberman@unaffiliated/berberman)
00:05:48 → howdoi joins (uid224@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ikuobcyybrkdaaee)
00:05:48 → aplainzetakind joins (~johndoe@captainludd.powered.by.lunarbnc.net)
00:05:48 → Alleria_ joins (~AllahuAkb@2603-7000-3040-0000-21c5-c900-9e1d-bf71.res6.spectrum.com)
00:05:48 → fiQ2 joins (~fiQ@mirkk.ninja)
00:05:48 → yorick joins (~yorick@oftn/oswg-member/yorick)
00:05:48 → echoreply joins (~echoreply@unaffiliated/echoreply)
00:05:48 → kini joins (~kini@unaffiliated/kini)
00:05:48 → whataday joins (~xxx@2400:8902::f03c:92ff:fe60:98d8)
00:05:48 → Orbstheorem joins (~roosember@hellendaal.orbstheorem.ch)
00:05:48 → sphalerite joins (~sphalerit@NixOS/user/lheckemann)
00:05:48 → dh joins (dh@bsd.ee)
00:05:48 → recon_-_ joins (~quassel@2602:febc:0:b6::6ca2)
00:05:48 → elvishjerricco joins (sid237756@NixOS/user/ElvishJerricco)
00:05:48 → orcus- joins (~orcus@unaffiliated/orcus)
00:05:48 → pierrot joins (~pi@unaffiliated/pierrot)
00:05:48 → dequbed joins (~dequbed@2001:bc8:3f24:100::1)
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00:32:33 <koz_> Am I missing something here, but I don't see why left distribution is mutually incompatible with left catch: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/semigroupoids-5.3.5/docs/Data-Functor-Alt.html#t:Alt
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00:33:03 <koz_> And I assume that 'ReaderT r Maybe' behaves the same way as 'Maybe' vis-a-vis Alt?
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00:33:19 <koz_> (in terms of satisfying laws)
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00:35:58 <koz_> (OK, having checked, question 2's answer is indeed 'yes')
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00:41:31 <dolio> The only way you can satisfy both is if `(a <$> c) <!> (b <.> c) = a <$> c`, essentially.
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00:49:48 <ezzieyguywuf> hm, how do I deal with ambiguous module names? Control.Monad.Extra, https://hoogle.haskell.org/?hoogle=Control.Monad.Extra&scope=set%3Astackage
00:50:00 <ezzieyguywuf> it was found in multiple packages: extra-1.7.8 monad-extras-0.6.0
00:50:21 <L29Ah> you can hide a package
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00:51:53 <ezzieyguywuf> how?
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00:52:36 <monochrom> Perhaps you don't need both packages.
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00:53:18 <ezzieyguywuf> monochrom: you think maybe the two are mutually exclusive?
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00:55:08 <monochrom> No, I think these "extra utilities" libraries are just a lot of one-liners you could have handcoded yourself and you only need maybe 3 out of 100 such one-liners.
00:57:18 <ezzieyguywuf> monochrom: makes sense. what about in other cases though? specifically I'm running in to this packaging haskell stuff in gentoo - if two packages depend on different libraries with ambiguous module names...how do you deal with it?
00:58:00 <yushyin> ezzieyguywuf: so hardcode the function you need, hide/rename package with mixins: cabal-feature or use ghc's package-qualified imports extension
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00:59:03 <ezzieyguywuf> yushyin: this sounds right, but you threw a lot at me that's new that I don't understand :-P
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00:59:22 <ezzieyguywuf> i.e. "mixins", "cabal-feature", and "package-qualified imports extension"
00:59:33 <ezzieyguywuf> can you point me to a man-page or some documentation?
00:59:45 <yushyin> sure
00:59:51 <yushyin> https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-package.html?highlight=mixins#pkg-field-mixins
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00:59:58 <yushyin> https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/glasgow_exts.html#package-qualified-imports
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01:02:37 <ezzieyguywuf> yushyin: thanks!
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01:09:04 <ezzieyguywuf> hm, ok now I can see how either mixins or package-qualified imports would resolve this (or hard-coding the function)
01:09:55 <ezzieyguywuf> is this issue that I'm running into gentoo-specific, though, or is it truly something that I should expect 'upstream' i.e. the haskell package to resolve?
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01:14:58 <ezzieyguywuf> but really, i guess I'm still not understanding how this conflict occurs - [this](https://github.com/simonmichael/hledger/blob/master/hledger-lib/hledger-lib.cabal#L117) is the line giving me "trouble", but really, everything should be hidden unless it's listed in this cabal file, right? and so since monad-extras isnt't listed, it doesn't seem like there should be a problem
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01:16:16 <sm[m]> what conflict, ezzieyguywuf ?
01:17:58 <ezzieyguywuf> sm[m]: well, I'm not sure how to duplicate the issue outside of gentoo :-P here's some info https://github.com/gentoo-haskell/gentoo-haskell/commit/ef6a2b2d63b1931f3404e02cd351a1af0cc48969#r45978197
01:18:58 <ezzieyguywuf> sm[m]: but in short - since the `extra` package *and* the `monad-extras` packages each have a `Control.Monad.Extra` module, an "Ambiguous module" error pops up if both are "installed"
01:19:21 <ezzieyguywuf> sm[m]: I think we're going to deal with it by removing `monad-extras`, since that looks old and unmaintained and doesn't seem to have any reverse dependencies
01:19:53 <ezzieyguywuf> but then I'm left wondering two things: (1) how to deal with it in the future (I think yushyin set me straight on this), but also (2) why the heck is it even an issue if `monad-extras` should be hidden
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01:24:19 <sm[m]> ezzieyguywuf: that sounds easiest indeed.
01:24:47 <sm[m]> I'm not sure if not listing a dep in the cabal file actually hides it, if it's installed. ghc-pkg has hide and expose commands for some reason. I did successfully build hledger-lib just now after also installing monad-extras, but that's with stack
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01:25:38 <sm[m]> packaging is quite a rabbit hole isn't it
01:25:47 <ezzieyguywuf> I tried duplicating the issue with just cabal-install, but `cabal-install monad-extras` doesn't seem to do anything.
01:25:55 <ezzieyguywuf> sm[m]: also, the issue pops up when compiling the tests.
01:26:07 <ezzieyguywuf> sm[m]: hah, yea quite the rabit hole indeed. but fun :)
01:27:02 <ephemient> first time digging into Gentoo's Haskell packaging, but https://github.com/gentoo-haskell/gentoo-haskell/blob/master/eclass/haskell-cabal.eclass looks like it uses `./setup build`, not `cabal build`
01:27:36 <sm[m]> ah well cabal is complicated. Also it's not cabal-install :)
01:28:22 <sm[m]> gentoo sounds like it's somewhere between homebrew and nix
01:28:30 <ezzieyguywuf> ephemient: yes we use ./setup build
01:28:49 <ezzieyguywuf> sm[m]: hah, I meant `cabal install...`
01:29:14 <ezzieyguywuf> I've tried to get into the habit of specifying cabal-install when I'm talking about the *executable* versus the library, mostly for my own sanity
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01:29:50 <sm[m]> I've given up on that. And it's fine
01:30:04 <ephemient> is the package isolation stuff in cabal-install or cabal-lib?
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01:37:38 <ephemient> yeah I don't understand Cabal very well but I don't think https://github.com/haskell/cabal/blob/master/Cabal/src/Distribution/Simple/Build.hs has any sandboxing, only https://github.com/haskell/cabal/blob/master/cabal-install/src/Distribution/Client/CmdBuild.hs
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01:38:22 <ephemient> why doesn't gentoo use cabal-install?
01:38:29 <ezzieyguywuf> ephemient: I dunno about sandboxing, but doesn't ghc-pkg by default hide anything that isn't explictly listed in the cabal file?
01:38:43 <ezzieyguywuf> well, now I'm showing my ignorance, I dunno who does what in this scenareo...
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01:39:26 <ezzieyguywuf> ephemient: I asked, and received what appeared to be a reasonable response. I forget all the specifics, but part of it had to do with the larger dependency footprint of cabal-install versus just cabal-lib
01:39:47 <ezzieyguywuf> i could try to dig up the answer in my irc logs...
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01:46:50 <ephemient> it's not ghc-pkg that does it, it's how cabal invokes ghc that has that effect
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01:49:15 <ezzieyguywuf> hrm, I think we do invoke ghc with the appropriate flag. let me check.
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01:51:22 <ezzieyguywuf> hrm, maybe we don't...
01:51:36 <ezzieyguywuf> I guess --hide-all-packages is the appropriate ghc option?
01:53:22 <ephemient> running `build --verbose=3` here, I see it invoke `/usr/bin/ghc --make -fbuilding-cabal-package ... -hide-all-packages ... -no-user-package-db -package-db dist/package.conf.inplace -package-id base-4.14.1.0 ...`
01:53:45 <ephemient> so at least one of those options, probably
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01:59:49 <ezzieyguywuf> ephemient: thanks for your help, this gives me enough info to have some conversations with the gentoo folks
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04:16:41 <hololeap> ugh, why does cabal place upper-bounds on dependency versions by default?
04:17:04 <hololeap> i understand why in theory, but 99% of the time nothing bad happens if you remove them
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04:25:07 <hololeap> i'm also making packages for gentoo, and i don't know how many times i've had to remove those upper bounds because a dependency got bumped and whatever is depending on it hasn't updated their cabal file
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04:27:40 <superstar64> are there any non bottom values for this type? `data Not a = Not ( a => Void )`
04:29:27 <hololeap> i don't see how there could be. are there any non bottom values for Void?
04:29:30 <ephemient> is `a => Void` any different from `Void`?
04:30:02 <ephemient> also `Not ⟂` is not quite the same as `⟂`
04:30:11 <superstar64> well for if `data Not a = Not (a -> Void)`, `Not id` is valid
04:30:26 <superstar64> i'm just wondering if there's a typeclass equivalent
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04:34:05 <superstar64> actually, maybe there aren't it would allow you to call this function:
04:34:05 <superstar64> `f :: a => Not a -> Void`
04:34:06 <superstar64> `f (Not x) = x`
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04:36:50 <hololeap> superstar64: are you trying to make a constraint that's the inversion of the constraint a?
04:37:10 <superstar64> i'm not really trying to do anything
04:37:42 <hololeap> fair enough, i was just checking
04:37:58 <superstar64> oh also, are zero parameter typeclasses useful in anyway?
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04:43:55 <superstar64> they kinda remind me of C's forward declarations https://pastebin.com/raw/3V06qF24
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05:03:23 <superstar64> i can't find any resources on zero parameter typeclasses. are they actually useless or just unexplored?
05:04:06 <superstar64> in theory, you don't need global bindings if you have zero parameter typeclasses right?
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05:07:58 <Axman6> :kind HasCallStack
05:08:20 <Axman6> % :kind HasCallStack
05:08:20 <yahb> Axman6: ; <interactive>:1:1: error: Not in scope: type constructor or class `HasCallStack'
05:08:28 <Axman6> % :kind HasCallstack
05:08:28 <yahb> Axman6: ; <interactive>:1:1: error: Not in scope: type constructor or class `HasCallstack'
05:08:31 <Axman6> :(
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05:10:46 <superstar64> i'm surprised this works https://pastebin.com/raw/d2nAyNdy
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05:13:04 <superstar64> you get this if you leave out the instance: `    • No instance for Main arising from a use of ‘main’`
05:13:54 <glguy> I don't think nullary type classes are generally that useful, but they make sense to exist so they are allowed too
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05:16:02 <superstar64> oh that's what they're called, thanks
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06:14:19 <superstar64> is there a typeclass where you can implement this? `lambda :: (a -> m c) -> m (a -> c)`
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06:21:20 <jle`> superstar64: hm, Alternative?
06:21:27 <jle`> lambda _ = empty
06:22:10 <superstar64> well, something meaning full, like flip, where `m` is the reader monad
06:22:34 <c_wraith> In general, that type only works for things that are the reader monad
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06:22:46 <jle`> so, you're looking for maybe a generalized version of flip?
06:23:16 <jle`> are you looking to find an abstraction, or are you asking about a specific 'm' you are thinking of?
06:23:22 <superstar64> give me a second, i'll show you how i derived this
06:24:37 <superstar64> https://imgur.com/a/FSf14pq
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06:24:59 <superstar64> and the matching haskell https://pastebin.com/raw/rueeReGy
06:26:24 <superstar64> is there anything other then the reader monad that can inhabit `Marshallable`?
06:26:36 <jle`> do you have any laws?
06:26:46 <jle`> lambda _ = Nothing, for Maybe
06:26:48 <superstar64> i haven't though of any
06:27:28 <jle`> NonEmpty list, lambda f = (NE.head . f) :| []
06:27:40 <jle`> but yeah without knowing what sort of behavior or laws you are thinking of, it's hard to answer in a meaningful way
06:28:12 <superstar64> i'm trying to generalize typeclasses
06:28:22 <superstar64> if that's even possible
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06:29:05 <jle`> first think about what sort of properties you'd expect to hold
06:29:09 <jle`> aka laws
06:29:21 <jle`> what properties about the Reader version are important to you
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06:30:06 <superstar64> well, i guess `(\x -> e1)(e2)` = `e1[x := e2]` is a pretty important one
06:30:57 <superstar64> what other laws does the lambda calculus have?
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06:48:08 <superstar6455> kiwi is being buggy today, anyway is marshallable a good name for that typeclass?
06:49:52 <superstar6455> on the laws, i'm not sure if this cuts it `lam' e <*> (pure e') = e e'`
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06:55:00 <superstar6455> ok it's on reddit now too https://old.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/kxp65a/applicatives_where_a_m_c_m_a_c_is_sensible/?
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07:21:08 <b4er> Is this not co-applicative?
07:21:49 <b4er> Identity can also be an instance btw, but it's not really interesting ;P
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07:22:07 <b4er> Ah no, you also need pure too
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07:25:58 <mniip> b4er, the "f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b" formulation of applicative is merely a convenient description in haskell. From the category theory PoV, this description is only available in a cartesian closed category. The more general description involves arbitrary monoidal categories and so is not really up for dualization
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07:26:51 <idnar> @hoogle .#
07:26:51 <lambdabot> Network.AWS.Data.Headers (.#) :: FromText a => ResponseHeaders -> HeaderName -> Either String a
07:26:52 <lambdabot> Network.AWS.Prelude (.#) :: FromText a => ResponseHeaders -> HeaderName -> Either String a
07:26:52 <lambdabot> Data.Profunctor.Unsafe (.#) :: forall a b c q . (Profunctor p, Coercible b a) => p b c -> q a b -> p a c
07:27:29 <idnar> huh why is that unsafe?
07:27:43 <mniip> because it ignores q
07:28:04 <mniip> it assumes the second argument to be the identity
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07:30:12 <idnar> oh I see, it's a class method (and also not quite what I wanted)
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07:34:35 <idnar> @hoogle #.
07:34:35 <lambdabot> Data.Profunctor.Unsafe ( #. ) :: forall a b c q . (Profunctor p, Coercible c b) => q b c -> p a b -> p a c
07:34:35 <lambdabot> Lens.Micro.Internal ( #. ) :: Coercible c b => (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c
07:34:35 <lambdabot> Linear.Affine ( #. ) :: Coercible c b => (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c
07:38:43 <b4er> mniip, I did not know about that. if there's Comonad there must be Coapplicative but guess not.
07:39:16 <b4er> What is the reason we got Applicative then?
07:39:38 <b4er> I agree, it's convenient but that's probably not the reason
07:40:05 <mniip> monads are a monoid object in the category of endofunctors
07:40:12 <mniip> it's very easy to switch in "comonoid object"
07:40:14 <mniip> and get comonads
07:40:21 <mniip> applicatives not so much
07:40:54 <mniip> applicatives can be seen as lax monoidal functors from the cartesian structure on hask to itself
07:41:03 <mniip> it's not immediately clear what we want to dualize here
07:41:31 <mniip> cocartesian structure? all functors are lax monoidal with respect to it
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07:42:00 <mniip> (the comonad class has a note about it)
07:42:06 <idnar> @hoogle (a -> b) -> (a -> c) -> a -> (b, c)
07:42:08 <lambdabot> Data.Tuple.Extra (&&&) :: (a -> b) -> (a -> c) -> a -> (b, c)
07:42:08 <lambdabot> Extra (&&&) :: (a -> b) -> (a -> c) -> a -> (b, c)
07:42:08 <lambdabot> Control.Wire.Core (&&&!) :: (a -> b) -> (a -> c) -> (a -> (b, c))
07:42:39 <b4er> I should look at laxity (or whatever the real name is), I don't think I ever read something proper about it=
07:43:09 <mniip> there's the notion of a monoidal functor
07:43:14 <mniip> a functor that preserves monoidal structure
07:43:29 <b4er> I know a bit about these, yeah but not what the lax part means
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07:43:32 <mniip> "lax monoidal functor" is a weaker notion
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07:44:31 <mniip> instead of a natural isomorphism F A x F B = F (A x B) you look at a mere natural transformation in the forward direction
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07:46:13 <mniip> there's also something called day convolution
07:46:43 <mniip> it creates a monoidal structure
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07:46:55 <mniip> and a monoid object in this structure is precisely a lax monoidal functor
07:47:30 <mniip> there's a somewhat dual notion of day convolution of contravariant functors
07:47:32 <b4er> Pierce (the book I'm currently working through) never mentions "laxity" or "day convolutions" it seems but maybe he'll just use different nomenclature
07:48:19 <mniip> which book
07:48:47 <b4er> Pierce's "Basic Category Theory for Computer Scientists"
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07:49:02 <mniip> :S
07:49:25 <b4er> What?
07:49:38 <mniip> not a fan of that type of literature
07:50:44 <b4er> Makes sense it's got Computer Scientist in its title
07:50:49 <mniip> looking at the contents, this may be a bit above that book's pay grade
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07:52:03 <mniip> (my general sentiment is that in attempting to "dumb down" category theory you lose crucial details, at least, I haven't seen a source that doesn't)
07:53:59 <b4er> It's the feeling I got with all the material from Bartosz who seems fairly popular in Haskell world. But I do like this book
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07:54:32 <mniip> some of bartosz's material is hacked together without any rigor :(
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07:55:16 <b4er> It is meant as a light introduction though and I am aware that it is not a proper introduction to category theory. I think it's a good book especially coupled with the exercises
07:55:55 <mniip> have you come across examples of non-concrete non-thin categories
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07:57:51 <b4er> If you got a good (book) suggestion I am all ears
07:58:12 <b4er> mniip: I don't think I did
07:58:25 <mniip> unfortunately I don't
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07:59:00 <mniip> I read mac lane's book, and it is very pure math heavy, which caused me to learn a ton of pure math (which I found I liked)
07:59:06 <b4er> I had a meeting last week where I got two suggestions, but I forgot the second
07:59:08 <mniip> but I anticipate many won't
07:59:31 <b4er> It's everytime I use Zoom and someone puts it into chat, "yay meeting's over" - logout and stuff's gone ^^
07:59:41 <mniip> there's emily riehl's more recent book which is still pure maths but less "heavey"
08:00:11 <b4er> I'll ask next time I get a chance for a meeting but that'll be a while I think
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08:02:30 <mniip> in pure math, category theory is orinally used to formalize some notions of algebraic topology
08:02:52 <mniip> which is why a lot of introductions assume knowledge of topology and algebra
08:03:33 <mniip> on the other hand, category theory is the study of structure, abstraction and generalization. And you can't appreciate an abstraction if you don't have a variety of examples fitting that abstraction
08:03:41 <mniip> which there's plenty in pure math, not so much in cs
08:04:11 <mniip> this is why it's impossible to explain what a monad is
08:04:16 <mniip> you have to toy around with examples
08:05:41 <b4er> It's always Set, arrows over Set and so on (okay, not always but mostly) yah
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08:32:01 <ukari> why there is some code that can run correctly in ghci but occurs "Overlapping instances" error when compile from file? https://gist.github.com/ukari/edddcd04ca0da3068460a34bb050d736
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08:34:16 <ukari> And I fix the compile error by change OVERLAPPABLE to INCOHERENT, but get another weird behaviour that type signature of `testRaw` in ghci is different from signature in file
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08:36:12 <int-e> ukari: as a guess, ghci's extended defaulting kicks in, so it picks `Integer` as the type for that 0
08:36:24 <int-e> And indeed testNumber = foo (0 :: Integer) works
08:37:48 <ukari> maybe
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08:41:04 <int-e> But that seems to need ExtendedDefaultRules. I thought ghci enabled that, but :show language doesn't report it. Anyway, the module compiles if you add {-# LANGUAGE ExtendedDefaultRules #-}
08:41:51 <ukari> :show language returns NoDatatypeContexts, NondecreasingIndentation
08:42:04 <int-e> I can't fully explain why that makes a difference.
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08:43:12 <int-e> ukari: https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/ghci.html#type-defaulting-in-ghci "At the GHCi prompt, or with GHC if the ExtendedDefaultRules flag is given, [...]"
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08:44:05 <ukari> int-e, thank you, I compile with {-# LANGUAGE ExtendedDefaultRules #-} and it works as same as ghci
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08:52:24 <dminuoso> Can GHCi tell me which rules exist for a binding?
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09:01:34 <int-e> dminuoso: oh that would be useful (but I don't think ghci displays rules at all)
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09:28:03 <kuribas> is creating closures expensive in ghc? For example, I want to parse a query into an applicative action, but it has to first parse and validate the whole query before it can apply the action.
09:28:30 <kuribas> So I wonder if the overhead of creating the applicative closure is negligible or not.
09:28:58 <opqdonut> it's cheap
09:29:19 <kuribas> right :)
09:29:20 <opqdonut> the haskell runtime isn't "creating closures" in the same way as an imperative runtime would
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09:30:03 <opqdonut> it's graph reduction so closing over some variables is pretty much automatic
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09:30:51 <kuribas> The nice thing with this method is that there is no need for a separate validation step.
09:31:07 <opqdonut> but of course if you have two different options you can measure the performance (perhaps with criterion)
09:31:33 <kuribas> I suppose I'd need to benchmark it first.
09:31:38 <kuribas> I mean profile
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09:35:11 <kuribas> I would think the IO and database access would dominate the runtime. However in this article, they claim that parsing the JSON would be a bottleck: https://hasura.io/blog/architecture-of-a-high-performance-graphql-to-sql-server-58d9944b8a87/
09:35:14 <dminuoso> Is there a name for binary trees in which the second-to-outermost nodes cannot be binary?
09:35:25 <dminuoso> (i.e. the parent of each leaf may not be binary)
09:35:52 <dminuoso> Im thinking of a particular take of a PATRICIA trie
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09:37:28 <kuribas> I find it strange that generating JSON using Aeson would be slower than reading stuff from a database.
09:37:49 <kuribas> perhaps there where using toJson, instead of toEncoding?
09:38:07 <dminuoso> It's possible
09:38:20 <dminuoso> But also, aeson isn't exactly high performance
09:38:28 <dminuoso> Despite of what it claims
09:39:13 <kuribas> is there a faster alternative?
09:39:20 <dminuoso> Yes.
09:39:46 <kuribas> toEncoding goes straight to a bytestring builder, so how can you improve that?
09:39:54 <kuribas> dminuoso: which is?
09:41:01 <dminuoso> Ah well, both directions or just encoding?
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09:43:00 <kuribas> just encoding
09:43:10 <dminuoso> Even then, aeson uses Text for string data.
09:43:13 <mniip> kuribas, there's very little difference between code and data in the RTS
09:43:26 <dminuoso> That requires conversion from UTF16 to UTF6
09:43:52 <mniip> the only performance difference between (x, y) and (\p -> p x y) is the fact that the former memoizes (sometimes)
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09:45:06 <mniip> oh I guess and the fact that projections out of (,) (selectors) are slightly more optimized
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09:48:44 <kuribas> dminuoso: I get that it's slower than say directly writing to a buffer in C++, but I just find it hard to believe it's slower than reading from disk.
09:50:16 <kuribas> from the article: "From our benchmarks this approach is roughly 3–6x faster than the transformation function in Haskell"
09:50:29 <kuribas> that includes parsing the query result also...
09:51:26 <kuribas> dminuoso: still curious for the fast Aeson alternative ...
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09:52:38 <dminuoso> kuribas: Mmm, I guess for just going into encoding there's just the UTF16 of Text in the way
09:53:01 <dminuoso> Either way, the problem is JSON. :p
09:53:55 <kuribas> dminuoso: not using Text means that my library would need to take ByteString for text fields, which is rather ugly...
09:54:23 <kuribas> but then, how hard can it be to generate JSON?
09:54:25 <dminuoso> You could use text-utf8 I guess?
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09:55:24 <kuribas> ah, I didn't about that package.
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09:55:44 <kuribas> Why not merge it with Text?
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09:56:50 <kritzefitz> I think UTF16 performs better than UTF8 in cases, when you don't need UTF8 for external reasons. For example, indexing on UTF16 is O(1), while on UTF8 it is O(n).
09:56:52 <kuribas> then again, mysql-haskell uses normal Text, and most other packages do.
09:57:14 <kuribas> So converting to Utf-8 will not improve things...
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09:57:26 <kuribas> kritzefitz: indeixing on UTF16 is not O(1)
09:57:31 <mniip> >indexing on UTF16 is O(1)
09:57:34 <mniip> that's a bad, bad lie
09:57:35 <merijn> Text is UTF16 because ICU uses UTF-16 and anyone who needs *serious* unicode processing needs ICU
09:57:45 <kritzefitz> It is not?
09:57:48 <merijn> kritzefitz: No
09:57:54 <merijn> UTF-16 is a variable length encoding
09:57:58 <kritzefitz> Then I stand corrected.
09:58:06 <merijn> Because there are more than 2^16 unicode codepoints
09:58:23 <merijn> kritzefitz: And even if you use UTF-32 you don't get *sensible* O(1) indexing
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09:58:34 <merijn> Because there is no such thing as *sensible* indexing of unicode
09:58:36 <mniip> I mean you can index "codepoints" in O(1)
09:58:38 <merijn> It's literally impossible
09:58:48 <mniip> however "codepoints" are not "characters"
09:58:50 <dminuoso> kuribas: The same thing as usual: We dont have any company who hires 2 experiences Haskellers full time to take care of text-utf8.
09:58:54 <merijn> mniip: Which is why I said *sensible*
09:58:56 <dminuoso> Which would probably be necessary
09:59:04 <merijn> dminuoso: But also, who really cares?
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09:59:26 <merijn> for something like 95% of applications the internals of Text are irrelevant
09:59:44 <mniip> I had a fun time working around wchar_t in C++ the other day
09:59:52 <kuribas> merijn: for performance?
10:00:05 <mniip> now super salty whenever someone goes "look we have 16-bit chars we did it we solved unicode"
10:00:10 <merijn> kuribas: What performance, *exactly*?
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10:00:26 <merijn> mniip: The width of wchar_t isn't specified to be 16-bit
10:00:28 <kuribas> merijn: writing Text to bytestrings
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10:00:32 <mniip> it happens to be that though
10:00:46 <merijn> kuribas: How do you think that will be faster?
10:00:53 <mniip> I ended up writing a bunch of code that processes std::basic_string<char32_t>
10:01:05 <mniip> and you'd be surprised by how bad the stdlib support for that is
10:01:07 <merijn> You need to copy anyway, since Text isn't pinned and ByteString is, so you don't get to skip the copy
10:01:17 <kuribas> merijn: because you need to process less data?
10:01:22 <kuribas> merijn: more cache locality?
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10:01:30 <merijn> And I find it hard to believe that recoding UTF-16 to UTF-8 is that computationally intensive
10:02:08 <merijn> kuribas: I stand by my claim that for 95% of applications (conservative estimate) this doesn't matter shit
10:02:26 <kritzefitz> So what exactly is the reason for using UTF16? I guess (or at least hope) there is some reason why ICU works on UTF16 instead of the more ubiquitous UTF8?
10:02:28 <merijn> kuribas: both your network connections *and* your hard disk are going to be slower than your encoding will be
10:02:46 <kuribas> merijn: perhaps... I am still confused about their claim that Aeson was the bottleneck...
10:02:46 <merijn> kritzefitz: Because ICU predates utf-8 being near universal
10:03:16 <merijn> kuribas: I call BS on that claim without hard and well defined benchmarks
10:03:23 <mniip> kritzefitz, I might be wrong here but it might come from microsoft's sloppy implementation of unicode?
10:03:25 <dminuoso> kritzefitz: Actually UTF-16 is very prevalent.
10:03:39 <merijn> kritzefitz: Same reason Java uses UTF-16 as do the old macOS filesystem and MicroSoft's NTFS
10:04:13 <merijn> mniip: UTF-8 was invented later and not by the unicode consortium
10:04:18 <dminuoso> Java for example internally encodes strings as UTF-16 too.
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10:04:36 <mniip> ah
10:04:45 <kuribas> merijn: indeed, and I am conjecturing that they did something inefficient, like using toJson instead of toEncoding.
10:05:03 <kuribas> merijn: and perhaps an expensive query postprocessing step
10:05:08 <aldum> I remember when I heard about that in Java
10:05:25 <mniip> we had a problem with aeson performance once
10:05:33 <mniip> but that's when we were running aeson on ghcjs
10:05:36 <aldum> I was like "wait, a minute, I can name variables with kanji?" turns out I can
10:05:38 <mniip> so like, understandable have a nice day
10:06:08 <merijn> aldum: Haskell is clearly superior!
10:06:08 <dminuoso> merijn: Anyway, if you deal with large strings in Haskell, then you waste quite a bif of memory.
10:06:20 <opqdonut> json is surprisingly inefficient
10:06:23 <merijn> > let x ☃ y = x*x + y*y in 2 ☃ 3
10:06:24 <lambdabot> 13
10:06:31 <merijn> opqdonut++
10:06:40 <opqdonut> we made a service (in clojure though) that was processing large json requests and responses, and the serde time dominated everything
10:06:42 <merijn> Anyone who gives a shit about encoding performance shouldn't be using JSON anyway
10:06:51 <opqdonut> even though we did db access and computation
10:07:09 <mniip> > let (😼) = (<>) in "hello" 😼 "world"
10:07:11 <lambdabot> "helloworld"
10:07:14 <kuribas> mniip: I wouldn't use ghcjs if I needed even a small bit of performance.
10:07:24 <ph88> hey guys, do you know a few examples when making things strict hurts the code? when is it better to leave things lazy ?
10:07:29 <dminuoso> UTF-8 is space efficient, and if you do string operations you get better locality of reference
10:07:37 <mniip> kuribas, yea but when your ghcjs webapp needs to query some data from the backend, and the data happens to be 100KB of json
10:07:39 <kuribas> ph88: right folds
10:07:44 <merijn> dminuoso: Also, robust to dumbass C code!
10:07:57 <ph88> kuribas, what is it with right folds ?
10:08:19 <merijn> ph88: There are lots of cases where making things strict hurts code
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10:08:50 <merijn> ph88: A strict program will *at best* do the same number of operations as a lazy one, but on average it will do much, much more.
10:08:52 <dminuoso> ph88: "hurts the code" is so generic. Is this just a question "why is lazyness useful"?
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10:09:17 <kritzefitz> Yes, I was aware that many things use UTF16. But most of the cases I know are only “local” to some component and once you interchange data between different components it is usually done in UTF8. Apparently I assumed there was some non-historic reason for that, but maybe that was wrong.
10:09:31 <dminuoso> kritzefitz: http://utf8everywhere.org/
10:09:35 <dminuoso> You might find this website enlightening.
10:09:36 <mniip> merijn, asymptotically
10:09:47 <ph88> dminuoso, ye but i would like to have it phrased the other way around -- how can strictness be bad and have some good examples
10:09:48 <mniip> in practice the constant might bite
10:09:53 <merijn> ph88: Now there are some space leak scenarios where the laziness costs you more than you save due GHC's implementation, but those aren't nearly as common as some people make it out to be
10:09:53 <kuribas> ph88: right folds are quite efficient, and don't require an accumulator to be efficient, unlike in scheme.
10:10:22 <merijn> kritzefitz: Well, you can't interchange Text, so ;)
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10:11:00 <merijn> kritzefitz: That was my earlier point, the internals of Text (like it being UTF-16) are irrelevant to users
10:11:27 <merijn> Unless you're a MagicHash and unsafeX adept
10:11:50 <kuribas> ph88: that is, if the thing you fold is also lazy, like a list
10:12:03 <kuribas> ph88: like map, filter, etc...
10:12:11 <ph88> merijn, i get the idea conceptually i have some problems coming up with good examples to show this point
10:12:12 <dminuoso> Or if the memory efficiency impacts you negatively
10:12:37 <dminuoso> ph88: One example where strictness hurts is lists.
10:12:42 <opqdonut> a strict pipeline of map-filter-map-filter will keep all of your data in memory
10:12:47 <opqdonut> a lazy one is O(1)
10:12:51 <kritzefitz> Sure, from an interface perspective its mostly irrelevant. But the people who implemented those systems that use UTF16 (e.g. the authors of ICU) had to have some reason to use UTF16 instead of UTF8. I just assumed that the reason was, that UTF16 is better suited for the task than UTF8, but apparently that was wrong.
10:12:56 <kritzefitz> merijn, ^
10:13:08 <opqdonut> in a strict world you need something like iteratees to get nice streaming behaviour
10:13:11 <ph88> opqdonut, ah thanks ! that's a good example
10:13:16 <kuribas> ph88: however, lazyness is mostly a design feature, not a performance feature.
10:13:20 <mniip> in the modern world, a truly modern solution would be UTF32
10:13:21 <dminuoso> ph88: In Haskell, we often tend to think of lists as encoding control flow (rather than data). So it being lazy makes it more modular
10:13:22 <opqdonut> I guess even in haskell if you want reliable/provable streaming, you need conduits/pipes
10:13:29 <mniip> "just buy more memory"
10:13:32 <merijn> mniip: >:(
10:13:35 <ph88> thanks dminuoso
10:13:40 <dminuoso> merijn: And buy larger cache lines too? :)
10:13:45 <dminuoso> Err mniip ^-
10:13:49 <mniip> sure
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10:14:04 <merijn> kritzefitz: Well, "better suited for the task at the time the task was implemented" ;)
10:14:48 <kuribas> ph88: the goal of lazyness is to make elegant code, without having to sacrifice to much efficiency. However if you want supreme performance, than you better write ugly ass low level C code.
10:15:25 <dminuoso> ph88: Another example where lazyness is beneficial, is bindings that are possibly not used.
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10:16:33 <MorrowM> head . sort comes to mind
10:17:18 <mniip> my CPU cache fits my entire kernel and loaded modules
10:17:37 <ph88> MorrowM, cool example =)
10:17:41 <mniip> (their text)
10:18:05 <kuribas> ph88: the tradeoff that haskell and lazyness gives you is high level code with fairly good performance. Other languages give you the choice between very good performance and low level code, or very bad performance and high level code.
10:18:29 <dminuoso> I mean the cache line bit is quite interesting actually. In a worst case, where we assume UTF-16 to waste *half* the memory, you waste half your cache too, and it doubles memory accesses..
10:18:46 <mniip> easy
10:18:49 <mniip> just transpose your string
10:18:52 <dminuoso> haha
10:19:18 <ph88> kuribas, how is that done in other languages that you can't have high level code with fairly good performancce? I thought other languages also have good solutions
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10:19:35 <kuribas> ph88: I see this in common lisp, our code is supposed to be high level, but it is littered with small hacks for "performance", which make the code a lot less readable.
10:19:55 <dminuoso> ph88: You'd implement the lazyness ad-hoc manually by means of conditional code execution
10:20:02 <dminuoso> Or maybe not at all
10:20:25 <mniip> makes me wonder if writing a byte to a cacheline that is already there marks the cacheline as modified
10:20:31 <kuribas> ph88: what a java programmer considers "good" and "high level" is different from what a haskell programmer does.
10:20:46 <dminuoso> Consider writing something like `f x s t = if x > 10 then s else t` where the second argument to `f` is a very expensive computation
10:21:03 <dminuoso> In Haskell you dont even have to think about it, and you pay for the price of the second argument only when you need it
10:21:13 <dminuoso> In strict world, this needs to be done explicitly
10:21:16 <opqdonut> yeah, laziness obviates macros
10:21:23 <opqdonut> for implementing basic flow-control
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10:21:53 <kuribas> opqdonut: good point, I find that most macros in lisp can be just done using the language in haskell.
10:22:10 <kuribas> and are also way more readable
10:22:13 <kuribas> and easier to debug
10:22:32 <opqdonut> yes
10:22:37 <opqdonut> cheap HOFs and laziness
10:23:26 <zangi> can anyone explain why f keeps going on forever `f = [1..9] <|> f`, while g stops at first sequence `g = (pure [1..9]) <|> g`?
10:23:29 <kuribas> the lisp way of making DSLs is using macros and lists with symbols.
10:23:30 <dminuoso> mniip: Mmm, that would introduce latency to all writes, wouldn't it?
10:23:48 <dminuoso> Unless there was specialized circuitry that would detect a copy-write
10:23:51 <merijn> zangi: Those use different Alternative instances
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10:24:06 <kuribas> :t let g = pure [1..9] <|> g in g
10:24:08 <lambdabot> (Alternative f, Num a, Enum a) => f [a]
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10:24:23 <merijn> zangi: in ghci?
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10:24:37 merijn puts $10 on "uses the Alternative of IO"
10:24:47 <zangi> merijn: yeah
10:25:19 <kuribas> opqdonut: but then, unlike haskell, lisp doesn't provide any way to describe how these macros or symbol lists need to be formed.
10:25:38 <opqdonut> indeed
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10:26:15 <merijn> zangi: The 'g' example is using pure to "put" a list into *an* Alternative and ghci just happens to pick IO (which succeeds and ends)
10:26:15 <zangi> merijn: how do I make `g` last forever?
10:26:34 <kuribas> opqdonut: in the end, you mess around on the repl, and dig in the source code, but IMO that's not "high level programming".
10:26:36 <merijn> zangi: The first version uses the Alternative instance of "[]" which is just concat
10:26:48 <merijn> So 'f' is just 'f = [1..9] ++ f'
10:27:26 <zangi> merijn: is there (++) for `IO [Int]`?
10:27:39 <dibblego> @liftA2 (++)
10:27:40 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
10:27:43 <dibblego> @type liftA2 (++)
10:27:44 <lambdabot> Applicative f => f [a] -> f [a] -> f [a]
10:27:46 <merijn> What are you trying to *actually* do
10:27:49 <kuribas> opqdonut: or in other words, people have different opinions on what "high level code" means.
10:28:08 <merijn> What does "making 'g' go forever" even mean?
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10:28:42 <kuribas> maybe he wants liftA2 (<|>) ?
10:28:53 <merijn> Maybe
10:28:58 <merijn> Maybe he wants a pony
10:29:06 <merijn> I'm not psychic
10:29:12 <zangi> merijn: I want to generate random numbers which consists of [1..9]s
10:29:19 <kuribas> :t let g = liftA2 (<|>) (pure [1..9]) g in g
10:29:20 <lambdabot> (Applicative f, Num a, Enum a) => f [a]
10:29:25 <merijn> I can come up within infinitely many expressions that match his type
10:29:46 <mniip> merijn, how many non-extensionally-equivalent :P
10:29:46 <merijn> > randomRs (1,9) (mkStdgen 42)
10:29:48 <lambdabot> error:
10:29:48 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: mkStdgen :: t0 -> g0
10:29:48 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant ‘mkStdGen’ (imported from System.Random)
10:29:52 <merijn> bah
10:29:57 <kritzefitz> merijn, yes I don't want to say it was a bad choice. But when looking at design a choice that was good at the time, it makes a difference if the choice would still be good today or if you would make a different choice today. As I understand it now, UTF16 for ICu seems to fall in the second category.
10:30:00 <merijn> > randomRs (1,9) (System.Random.mkStdgen 42)
10:30:05 <lambdabot> error:
10:30:05 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘System.Random.mkStdgen’
10:30:05 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant one of these:
10:30:09 <mniip> capital G
10:30:11 <mniip> it even tells you
10:30:14 <merijn> oh, doh
10:30:18 <merijn> > randomRs (1,9) (System.Random.mkStdGen 42)
10:30:20 <lambdabot> [1,8,1,3,2,8,5,3,6,9,3,9,2,1,3,3,9,3,3,9,1,7,9,8,6,7,4,2,7,1,3,2,7,4,8,5,3,8...
10:30:26 <merijn> mniip: Pfft, who reads errors?
10:30:32 <mniip> I do :<
10:30:34 <kuribas> let g = liftA2 (<|>) (pure [1..9]) g in g :: Const "pony"
10:30:39 <kuribas> > let g = liftA2 (<|>) (pure [1..9]) g in g :: Const "pony"
10:30:41 <lambdabot> error:
10:30:41 <lambdabot> • Expecting one more argument to ‘Const "pony"’
10:30:41 <lambdabot> Expected a type, but ‘Const "pony"’ has kind ‘k0 -> *’
10:30:55 <kuribas> > let g = liftA2 (<|>) (pure [1..9]) g in g :: Const "pony" [Int]
10:30:57 <lambdabot> error:
10:30:58 <lambdabot> • Expected a type, but ‘"pony"’ has kind ‘GHC.Types.Symbol’
10:30:58 <lambdabot> • In the first argument of ‘Const’, namely ‘"pony"’
10:30:58 <merijn> zangi: If you want random numbers you want randomRs
10:31:04 <merijn> :t randomRs
10:31:05 <lambdabot> (Random a, RandomGen g) => (a, a) -> g -> [a]
10:31:27 <mniip> I think they mean generating the sequence of all finite sequences of [1..9]
10:31:50 <ph88> what are the tradeoffs between Map and HashMap ?
10:32:10 <zangi> each [1..9] has to be unique, i.e [6,9,2,4,3,8,1,7,5] and not [8,9,8,4,8,8,1,8,5]
10:32:37 <merijn> ph88: The trade-offs are "just use Map, because unless you know why you should there's no real reason to use HashMap"
10:33:04 <ph88> please tell me why i should
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10:33:43 <merijn> "Your key doesn't have an Ord instance" and possibly "you have a hash function that's cheaper than compare"
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10:34:32 <ph88> thanks
10:35:57 <merijn> The worst case complexity of HashMaps is worse, their space usage is worse, seems like they'd be tricky to implement immutably too (but that's a problem for the implementers)
10:36:18 <merijn> And in general "balanced search trees" are just "pretty damn good and everone should stop hating on them"
10:36:47 <opqdonut> for slightly better performance it's best to have k-ary trees with a nice k
10:36:54 <opqdonut> e.g. IntMap does this
10:36:55 <mniip> a lot of the time I even use Map instead of Array
10:37:06 <opqdonut> yeah, same here
10:37:06 <kuribas> merijn: hashmap is also a balanced search tree
10:37:13 <kuribas> merijn: it just hashes first
10:37:26 <mniip> hashmap is more like IntMap than like Map
10:37:43 <int-e> zangi: to produce a random permutation of a list, select one of its elements at random as the first element, then append a random permutation of the remaining elements. Or use a ready-made implementation like https://hackage.haskell.org/package/random-shuffle-0.0.4/docs/System-Random-Shuffle.html
10:37:55 <mniip> which, I forget, is there an Integer-keyed radix tree somewhere on hackage?
10:38:21 <merijn> mniip: lol, so it doesn't even have the (oversold, underdelivering) O(1) best case complexity?
10:38:28 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher%E2%80%93Yates_shuffle is relevant as well, but not too friendly towards a language with immutable data like Haskell.
10:38:41 <merijn> Fisher-Yates!
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10:38:51 <merijn> One of the most useful and easy algorithms I've learned
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10:39:05 <int-e> merijn: of course it does, since the word size and hence the depth of the trie is bounded by a constant
10:39:17 <mniip> "Many operations have a average-case complexity of O(log n). The implementation uses a large base (i.e. 16) so in practice these operations are constant time."
10:39:20 int-e has a terrible feeling of deja vu
10:39:39 <merijn> int-e: By that logic any operation is O(1)
10:39:44 <opqdonut> merijn: I was surprised that it has a fancy name, feels like the obvious way
10:39:47 <int-e> . o O ( On a real computer, everything either fails to terminate or is O(1). )
10:39:48 <merijn> int-e: All data structures are bounded by memory!
10:39:50 <mniip> hashmaps with "O"("1") access are inherently not persistent
10:39:58 <int-e> merijn: I was getting there.
10:40:03 <opqdonut> merijn: or rather, I remember being surprised - -
10:40:06 <mniip> and thus can only exist in State#
10:40:27 <int-e> mniip: DiffArray ... *runs*
10:41:26 <int-e> (Those are no longer popular, fortunately. They're such a terrible, and amazingly expensive, hack.)
10:41:52 <merijn> Fisher-Yates + STVector works well, though
10:42:30 <int-e> opqdonut: what's interesting about hashmap is that it has its own implementation of a Word-indexed map instead of using Data.IntMap, presumably for performance reason.
10:42:33 <int-e> *s
10:43:30 <mniip> I wonder, is union-find inherently non-persistent as well
10:43:32 <kuribas> merijn: any O(log(n)) where n is a physical quantity is O(1).
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10:44:09 <kuribas> merijn: because physical quantities are limited, and the logarithm is a small upper bound.
10:44:09 <mniip> kuribas, all algorithms are Omega(sqrt(n)) where n is input size
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10:45:41 <mniip> combining the Bekenshtein bound with the Swarzchild bound with the speed of light bound, if you have n bits of memory it takes at least sqrt(n) time to access them
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10:45:56 <kuribas> mniip: how is sum x O(sqrt(n)) ?
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10:46:06 <mniip> otherwise your computer collapses into a black hole
10:46:11 <kuribas> mniip: wouldn't that be at least O(n) ?
10:46:17 <int-e> merijn: On a real computer the idea that hashtables have O(1) access is silly given the profound effect that an increased working set size has on caches, and hence memory access time. A trie will be somewhat worse, but you can expect the top levels to be cached, so it's not *much* worse.
10:46:46 <merijn> On a *real* computer big O is all a bunch of hokum and lies
10:46:49 <dminuoso> mniip: Mmm, we had this discussions a few times in here now. I heard some convincing arguments, that the blackhole idea is misleading in the wrong way.
10:47:09 <merijn> "Oh, my entire model is predicated on assumptions that fundamentally untrue and have been over 3 decades!"
10:47:48 <dminuoso> The blog articles (which Im sure you're referring to) make some arguments that this notion of memmory access is sqrt(n) has merits, because it matches real world data.
10:48:03 <merijn> Big O is all lies! It's a conspiracy for math nerds to ask you tricky math questions instead of real world...
10:48:16 merijn is dragged of my the men in white suits and non-descript vans
10:48:25 <mniip> dminuoso, not really
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10:48:34 <int-e> merijn: The actual argument should be that hashtables are expected to be faster because they usually get an access done in a single memory access where traversing a trie needs several.
10:48:35 <mniip> I'm just referring to three formulas from physics
10:48:42 <int-e> No O(), just plain numbers.
10:48:43 <merijn> Big O is fake news (fake theorems?)
10:49:12 <int-e> (ignoring the computation of the hash, which both hash tables and hashmap will have to do anyway)
10:49:37 <int-e> (and a couple of other things, like checking the key, which again, both approaches have to do)
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10:52:00 <mniip> bekenshtein bound gives R > k1 I / M, swarzchild bound gives M < k2 R; together R > k1 I / k2 R, i.e. R^2 > k1 I / k2. Light speed bound gives t > c R, giving t > c sqrt(k1 I / k2)
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10:52:53 <mniip> where k1 = hbar ln2 / 2 pi c, k2 = c^2 / 2G
10:53:42 <dminuoso> mniip: So the entire argument revolves around the idea, that we should use the physical laws as a model, because that's where be build computers in. So complexity analysis should take them into account, because they tell us about bounds of algorithms, executed on computers built in this reality. Right?
10:53:51 <mniip> not really
10:53:59 <mniip> I'm not being 100% serious here
10:54:08 <dminuoso> Oh.
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10:54:49 <mniip> the unironical issue here is that asymptotic analysis gives behavior "at infinity" and some functions behave differently at different scales before settling down to some behavior at infinity, and we don't really have the tools to talk about intermediate behaviors
10:54:55 <mniip> at least not commonly known tools
10:56:38 <merijn> mniip: I think my issue is even more crucial :p
10:57:00 <merijn> Which is that *asymptotic behaviour of big O is absolute bogus on any computer anyone actually uses*
10:57:11 <mniip> that's kinda what I said?
10:57:29 <mniip> you wanna know how your function behaves in the 1-1e12 range or so
10:57:46 <merijn> mniip: Well, your comment is "we don't have the tools to talk at range smaller then the asymptotic"
10:58:10 <merijn> My comment is "the asymptotic is a lie, so we don't even have ways to talk about stuff 'at infinity' *either*"
10:58:21 <mniip> we don't?
10:58:31 <nshepperd> in practical engineering big O is just an excuse to do what we normally do, which is dropping terms which look like they'd be small enough to not matter at the values of n we care about
10:58:43 <merijn> mniip: Well no, because Big O asymptotics assume uniform random access, which we don't have
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10:58:53 <mniip> ah
10:58:54 <mniip> that
10:58:55 <merijn> mniip: And you can't approximate it by averaging either
10:59:17 <mniip> yea I wasn't including a computation model as part of the problem
10:59:18 <merijn> Because you (can) get non-linear affects based on your access pattern
10:59:26 <mniip> I was thinking about just functions N -> N
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10:59:46 <merijn> In which case it all just crumbles to pieces leaving almost nothing useful :p
10:59:55 <kuribas> merijn: but O notation doesn't measure time, does it?
11:00:03 <kuribas> merijn: it measures number of operations
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11:00:15 <mniip> that depends on your computation model
11:00:17 <merijn> kuribas: Yes, but it assume operations take the same time
11:00:18 <kuribas> or space
11:00:26 <merijn> kuribas: and generally the operation is "memory access"
11:00:33 <kuribas> merijn: I don't think it does, because it's a mathematial model
11:00:39 <merijn> kuribas: But neither our operations *nor* our memory access are uniform
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11:01:00 <mniip> we assume that memory access and operations are bounded by a constant
11:01:10 <mniip> which is problematic for large enough n
11:01:10 <merijn> kuribas: If you don't assume operations correspond to some time (or other cost) what does "f(x) > g(x)" tell you?
11:01:44 <kuribas> merijn: that f(x) is bigger than g(x)?
11:01:46 <merijn> kuribas: If f(x) does less operations, but they all take 10x the time as the operations of g(x), the entire comparison is useless
11:01:57 <merijn> kuribas: Right, but that assumes the numbers are comparable
11:02:08 <kuribas> merijn: what is f(x) here?
11:02:13 <merijn> Which is only the case if there is a constant or uniform cost
11:02:29 <kuribas> merijn: that formula tells me nothing
11:02:42 <kuribas> because I don't know what f does, what the type of f or x is...
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11:02:59 <merijn> kuribas: We have algorithm 'f' which has some asymptotic and algorithm 'g' which has a "worse" asymptotic (i.e. does more operations)
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11:03:10 <nshepperd> big O notation can measure whatever you want
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11:03:25 <opqdonut> like with all theory, you have to squint a bit to make the analogies with the real world work
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11:03:27 <merijn> kuribas: How can you compare these asymptotic results if you don't assume the cost of operations is constant for 'f' and 'g'?
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11:03:51 <mniip> you can compare them if you know that the cost of operations is bounded
11:03:53 <merijn> kuribas: If you *don't* assume constant cost (as you said) you can't compare these and the asymptotic is useless
11:03:58 <opqdonut> something like O(n) is just short hand for thinking about how much work something does
11:03:59 <kuribas> merijn: you cannot, without benchmarking it.
11:04:01 <merijn> mniip: Right, but you don't know that either!
11:04:03 <opqdonut> if you're a programmer, that is
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11:04:27 <opqdonut> staring too finely at the asymptotics of fancy datastructures will probably go wrong, but everybody kinda knows that, right?
11:04:27 <merijn> opqdonut: That's the only semi-useful thing about big O, sloppy programmer shorthand :p
11:04:33 <kuribas> merijn: however, it does make sense to try convert O(n) to O(log n), and then check that the second is faster.
11:04:37 <merijn> opqdonut: Lol, optimist
11:04:43 <opqdonut> at least everybody I talk to
11:04:46 <merijn> opqdonut: There's tons of people these things are true
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11:04:59 <merijn> opqdonut: You must be talking to the upper quantile of programmers ;)
11:05:03 <merijn> anyway, lunch
11:05:09 <kuribas> merijn: I mean, O notation isn't the whole story, but it's still part of the story...
11:05:10 <mniip> sorting a list of 200 elements is very hard
11:05:26 <kuribas> merijn: and still something programmers should know
11:05:37 <int-e> kuribas: in the end you benchmark and pick the code that is fastest, hoping that the benchmarks were a good model of the real life applications you'll encounter.
11:05:57 <opqdonut> indeed
11:06:32 <kuribas> int-e: and you also want to take malicious attacks into account.
11:06:37 <int-e> You may use big O for extrapolation, while keeping an eye on the memory hierarchy.
11:06:40 <mniip> how did we go from hashtables to philosophy of mathematical modeling
11:06:54 <int-e> kuribas: I don't *want* to! ;-)
11:07:14 <kuribas> int-e: you can say, it's O(n^2), but the input is small. But what if someone deliberately sends you a large input set to bring down the service?
11:07:27 <int-e> kuribas: use UDP ;-)
11:07:29 <kuribas> int-e: right, you may need to then...
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11:07:48 <kuribas> int-e: how does that solve it?
11:07:56 <int-e> kuribas: limited package size ;)
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11:08:03 <int-e> packet, I mean
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11:08:11 <kuribas> ok, you could truncate the input if it gets to big...
11:08:16 <mniip> imagine offering turing incomplete services
11:08:32 <int-e> mniip: ...you mean like in real life?
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11:11:13 <int-e> . o O ( "sorting a list of 200 elements is very hard" -- you could start practicing with a deck of 52 cards and then work your way up to 200 )
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11:12:30 <mniip> I mean like, doing it efficiently
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11:13:00 <mniip> it's in that weird area between precomputed sort nets and when logarithmic asymptotic of quicksort kicks in
11:13:22 <int-e> kuribas: well, thanks to you I'm now reminiscing about a pattern matching incident where I asked for matches of foo********bar... which turned out to be handled by a backtracking regexp implementation.
11:13:52 <int-e> It wasn't even deliberate.
11:13:57 <ph88> merijn, here it says that HashMap has more efficient space and time performance http://dev.stephendiehl.com/hask/#unordered-containers
11:14:02 <kuribas> int-e: what was that supposed to do?
11:14:23 <int-e> kuribas: the same as foo*bar, of course
11:14:35 <kuribas> int-e: did you cat run over the keyboard?
11:14:53 <int-e> kuribas: emacs was involved, I hit M-8 instead of S-8 so the * came out 8 times in a row
11:15:07 <mniip> a `concat <$> many (many p)` will generally perform worse than `many p`
11:15:08 <int-e> I glanced at it, decided it should be equivalent.
11:15:11 <mniip> even though the two are equivalent
11:15:27 <int-e> And waited. And waited. And then realization dawned :)
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11:38:40 <L29Ah> is it me or cabal-install ignores --package-db=clear? https://dpaste.com/2YYAQ8FBF
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12:23:20 <zangi> is there a way to do `f (IO []) = IO []` like `f [] = []`?
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12:25:30 <c_wraith> zangi: are you look for a function of type [IO a] -> IO [a] ?
12:26:07 <c_wraith> zangi: IO isn't a constructor, so I'm not really sure what you're asking for.
12:28:56 <kritzefitz> zangi, sounds to me like you want `f` to be polymorphic so it can be both `IO [a] -> IO [b]` or `[a] -> [b]`, depending on the type of its argument, correct?
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12:29:52 <zangi> something like this https://0x0.st/-z0F.txt
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12:31:24 <kritzefitz> zangi, if you're trying to apply `f` to a value of type `getXs :: IO [a]`, you probably want `fmap f getXs`.
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12:33:06 <zangi> I mean inside the f definition contains IO code
12:34:31 <zangi> `f (x:xs) = x : f (turnsToIO xs)`
12:39:37 <MorrowM> perhaps you want mapM/traverse
12:39:56 <MorrowM> @type traverse
12:39:58 <lambdabot> (Traversable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
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12:48:15 <kritzefitz> zangi, to me it also sounds like you want to use `traverse` or at least something similar. But your example doesn't really give me an idea of what your actual real-world problem is. So I can't make a more specific recommendation.
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12:54:12 <zangi> kritzefitz: something like this https://0x0.st/-zGT.txt
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13:11:03 <kritzefitz> zangi, from a type perspective https://gitlab.com/-/snippets/2061706 should work. However, I don't really understand what the function is supposed to do and when I try to run it, it either fails on the `!!` or doesn't terminate at all.
13:11:38 <MorrowM> Are you trying to move a random element to the front of the list?
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13:13:43 <MorrowM> Consider separating your pure logic into a function, something like `baz :: Eq a => Int -> [a] -> [a]` and then use bind `(>>=)` to pass in a random number
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13:16:02 <ukari> I found there is a hack way to overlapping instance with constraint for only two types, which could write `foo 0`,`foo "abc"` instead of `foo (0::Int)` `foo ("abc"::String)` . but is this a bad smell?
13:16:13 <ukari> https://gist.github.com/ukari/a0715787899455e593edc4e7f790ef52
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13:31:57 <merijn> ph88: Citation needed
13:33:08 <ph88> merijn, haha :D
13:34:43 <idnar> merijn: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/oimg?key=0AiZ8xw4sxde1dDJhSGxGXzdhYzlVS2lZNjNZZEpSZ3c&oid=18&zx=p7xpm3rjnsp2 ;)
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13:35:13 <merijn> idnar: That is for String types, mostly due to hashing ones then doing lookups being faster than compare every time
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13:35:43 <merijn> idnar: Generalising that to every key is dangerous
13:36:01 <merijn> Also, still not relevant for most applications
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13:36:22 <zangi> MorrowM: I'm trying to randomly shuffle a list, e.g. [1,2,3] -> [2,3,1], [3,1,2], [1,3,2], etc
13:36:49 <zangi> kritzefitz: wow, never thought about using do notation
13:36:54 <lortabac> ukari: what is the purpose of this "hack"? avoiding ambiguous types?
13:38:53 <lortabac> ukari: can't you just do 'instance Foo Int where foo = Number' ?
13:40:45 <lortabac> I don't think Foo would be ambiguous, because the type of 'a' can be determined from the argument of 'foo'
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13:42:55 <merijn> lortabac: It's ambiguous if you do "foo 1" :p
13:43:05 <merijn> Because 1 *could* be String
13:43:32 <lortabac> I don't understand
13:44:18 <geekosaur> nothig stops you from defining a Num instance for String, and numeric literals get fromIntegral applied to them
13:44:40 <lortabac> oh ok, but this is a different problem
13:44:43 <merijn> lortabac: Yes
13:44:46 <geekosaur> (whether it makes sense is another question, but the compiler doesn't do "makes sense")
13:44:50 <merijn> It's unrelated to overlapping
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13:45:15 <lortabac> it's about how to specialize literal integers to 'Int'
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13:45:57 <geekosaur> sorry, fromInteger
13:46:39 <lortabac> I am not sure avoiding 6 extra chars is worth an incoherent instance
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13:47:38 <lortabac> especially if the type of the argument can be inferred to be an Int somewhere else in the code
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13:49:45 <ArConan> @where paste
13:49:45 <lambdabot> Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at eg https://paste.tomsmeding.com
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13:52:24 <ArConan> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/NTX1IjGD
13:53:06 <ArConan> why we use `fmap f` in haskell?
13:53:25 <ArConan> why not use `fmap Tree`?
13:53:45 <__monty__> ArConan: Do you mean the order of arguments?
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13:54:20 <geekosaur> because you are mapping a function over a Tree, not mapping a Tree over a function
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13:54:48 <geekosaur> (I assume you meant Functor instead of Function in that paste)
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13:55:46 <ArConan> geekosaur: ah ,yes
13:56:13 <ArConan> problem sovled
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14:10:38 <itai33[m]> is there a program that automatically weakens your dependencies to the largest thing that will compile in haskell/cabal?
14:10:58 <ij> when backtracking and trying to do fairness, does that count as heuristic? is there any similarity between that and A*?
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14:12:32 <__monty__> itai33[m]: Hackage does have a build matrix which is generated by CI supposedly so the mechanism exists afaict. You'd have to run a ton of builds though.
14:13:40 <__monty__> If you just want a policy to adhere to "package ^>= current-version" and then relaxing it when users report your bounds are too strict is a common way of going about it.
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14:15:37 <itai33[m]> __monty__: this kind of assumes that my package actually has users though
14:15:46 <itai33[m]> however if it doesn't really i guess this matters a lot less
14:16:12 <__monty__> Yeah, if you're the only consumer you'll just be the one reporting to yourself your bounds are too strict : )
14:16:29 <__monty__> It's also less important for executables than libraries.
14:16:51 <itai33[m]> true true
14:17:12 <itai33[m]> however it seems that getting on the CI is nontrivial
14:17:26 <itai33[m]> idiii asked like 2 months ago and isn't on
14:18:00 <__monty__> What do you mean? Get your package built by hackage CI without publishing to hackage?
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14:18:29 <itai33[m]> __monty__: no you have to ask explicitly even if is on hackage already
14:18:46 <__monty__> Ah. Understandable, like I said it's a *lot* of builds.
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14:18:58 <__monty__> I imagine only somewhat popular libraries get added.
14:18:59 <itai33[m]> true, maybe they only do it for popular packages
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14:19:39 <__monty__> I didn't mean use hackage CI btw. I meant hackage CI does it somehow so presumably there's code somewhere which you'd then need to adapt to run conveniently.
14:20:18 <itai33[m]> hmm yeah i'll look into it
14:20:27 <kritzefitz> I think I recently read somewhere that matrix CI should automatically build new packages on Hackage, but in reality it doesn't seem to happen. Unfortunately I couldn't find a reliable information on what is the intended behavior.
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14:23:03 <texasmynsted> I looked on reddit, so, haskell.org, the haskell wiki, etc... What is a good option for hosting prototype haskell web apps? Right now the only thing that I can think of is Amazon EC2.
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14:31:41 <ij> maybe heroku with custom build packs? just a guess, I haven't tried it
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14:32:34 <texasmynsted> Good idea. I have not tried heroku in years.
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14:43:50 <travv0> I use heroku for that, works well
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14:49:43 <itai33[m]> does adding more summed options to a sum type count as a breaking change?
14:50:20 <merijn> itai33[m]: Luckily for you, there is a helpful flowchart!
14:50:27 <merijn> itai33[m]: https://pvp.haskell.org/
14:50:30 <itai33[m]> neat!
14:51:32 <itai33[m]> cool so it does count if the constructors are visible
14:52:04 <itai33[m]> merijn: thanks for the link, is the flowchart new? i feel like i haven't seen it before
14:52:16 <merijn> itai33[m]: Well, depends how you define new :p
14:52:27 <merijn> It's certainly *at least* 2 years old by now
14:52:32 <itai33[m]> i may have only read the pvp faq and not the spec itself
14:52:48 <itai33[m]> yeah okay i just missed the fact that the spec is also there
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15:07:35 <maralorn> People always complain about the quadratic instances problem of monad stacks. But isn‘t that essentially solved by the MonadTrans class?
15:07:58 <merijn> maralorn: No
15:08:09 <merijn> maralorn: How would that solve it?
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15:09:06 <merijn> maralorn: Sure, you can manually write 'lift' 5 times for each operation, but that's hard "solved"
15:10:59 <maralorn> In this article I got the impression that one instance of the form (MyClass m a, MonadTrans t, Monad m) => MyClass (t m) a, solves it. https://lukasz-golebiewski.github.io/haskell/effects/2021/01/06/overlappable-instances.html
15:11:26 <maralorn> Is that a crazy new idea? Does everyone already do that?
15:11:27 <maralorn> What are the downsides?
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15:13:06 <merijn> maralorn: It overlaps every possible transformer? :)
15:13:38 <merijn> maralorn: So you can't instantiate the instance for ReaderT, because if overlaps with that one
15:14:10 <maralorn> It does?
15:14:16 <merijn> Well yes
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15:14:26 <maralorn> You mean I can‘t write this instance for ReaderT?
15:14:30 <merijn> Unless you wanna not define a MonadTrans instance for ReaderT?
15:14:44 <maralorn> Or you I can‘t use that instance with t = ReaderT?
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15:15:27 <maralorn> Why would there be another instance for MyClass (ReaderT m) a?
15:15:43 <merijn> maralorn: "instance Monad m => MonadReader r (ReaderT r m) where..." overlaps with instance "instance (MonadReader r m, MonadTrans t, Monad m) => MonadReader r (t m)"
15:15:46 <maralorn> And would it be a problem? I mean it would overlap our instance, right?
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15:16:12 <merijn> maralorn: Why would there be another instance? Because you just defined another instance...
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15:18:40 <maralorn> Well the blog post says those instances overlap. That‘s why they use OVERLAPPABLE.
15:19:43 <merijn> maralorn: That doesn't solve your problem, because you can get in positions where it's hard to predict what goes on
15:19:59 <merijn> "ReaderT Int (ReaderT Bool m)" How is this resolved
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15:20:49 <maralorn> I don‘t know. Does it get resolved at all?
15:20:50 <merijn> maralorn: Oh, also
15:20:55 <dolio> The `ReaderT Int m` instance is used.
15:21:00 <kupi> is there any way to inline f in the expression a `f` b while still being infix?
15:21:00 <merijn> maralorn: That class still requires multiple lifts
15:21:14 <merijn> Maybe?
15:21:15 <merijn> Anyway
15:21:27 <merijn> Hot take: The mtl classes are bad and you should not use them anyway!
15:21:47 <merijn> kupi: Put an INLINE pragma on 'f'? :p
15:22:07 <merijn> kupi: You can't make composite expressions infix with ``, no
15:22:26 <merijn> kupi: Although I'm curious why it'd matter?
15:23:44 <kupi> because i think "t (div `on` floor) nominalDay" looks better than "(div `on` floor) t nominalDay"
15:23:57 <maralorn> merijn: So how do you stack effects?
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15:24:31 <merijn> maralorn: The classes are too general to count as useful effects
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15:25:18 <merijn> The class style polymorphism is great for higher level, DSL-like operations that are unique (like logging, database access, etc.)
15:25:18 <kupi> hmm i can "(t & (div `on` floor)) nominalDay"
15:25:23 <maralorn> Ah, I remember that point. You prefer a (ReadMyAppState m) Constraint?
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15:26:19 <merijn> maralorn: MonadReader isn't close to unique, lots of different things use that and libraries that expose MonadReader as part of their API are automatically incompatible on account of having conflicting requirements on MonadReader
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15:27:58 <merijn> maralorn: In my own code I have stuff like MonadX classes, but specific for my application
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15:28:29 <merijn> maralorn: And where possible you should not be exposing "monad stacks" as part of your API, they should just be an opaque newtype
15:28:48 <maralorn> Yeah.
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15:32:24 <maralorn> One of the annoyances of MonadReader is that you cannot use mapReaderT on (MonadReader r m => m)
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15:34:15 <dolio> It doesn't necessarily make any sense.
15:34:37 <dolio> You can have instances that only work for a fixed `r`.
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15:45:47 <maralorn> Fair enough
15:46:41 <maralorn> Well than maybe I am looking for a class which is more restrictive in that sense …
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16:01:35 <texasmynsted> thank you travv0 and ij.
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16:46:26 <ezzieyguywuf> hah, ok back to my "ambiguous module" thing from yesterday - I think it may actually be related to doctests? `cabal unpack pcre-heavy; cd pcre-heavy-1.0.0.2; cabal test` will result in "Ambiguous module" error if both "base-compat" and "base-compat-batteries" are listed in `ghc-pkg list`
16:46:48 <ezzieyguywuf> so I'm using cabal-install now, which I think _should_ use `-hide-all-packages`
16:46:53 <ezzieyguywuf> so something wonky is happening!
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17:07:17 <ezzieyguywuf> `ghc-pkg hide base-compat-batteries` fixes things, but I don't really understand why this is needed, and seems fragile
17:07:34 <ezzieyguywuf> I'd love to file a bug report if that's appropriate, but I could use some help first understanding what's going on.
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17:09:22 <merijn> ezzieyguywuf: Which version of cabal-install?
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17:10:17 <ezzieyguywuf> merijn: 3.2.0.0
17:10:22 <ezzieyguywuf> I believe that's the latest...
17:10:32 <ezzieyguywuf> cabal v3.2.1.0
17:11:12 <merijn> And you didn't have to specify a database location for ghc-pkg? Because that sounds like you somehow got something in your global package db (which, iirc, causes cabal-install to pin that version)
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17:12:13 <ezzieyguywuf> merijn: I have ghc installed using my package manager, as well as all the dependencies of prce-heavy
17:12:34 <ezzieyguywuf> so `cabal test --dry-run` says it only needs to build pcre-heavy, everything else comes from the system-wide package db
17:13:14 <merijn> hmm, I'm not sure why that'd happen and it's dinner time now, so someone else will have to guess
17:13:48 <ezzieyguywuf> merijn: thanks for trying!
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18:18:50 <ezzieyguywuf> hm, this seems like a clue...https://github.com/ekmett/lens/commit/d2459a012b5d9c2ae011814143ffcba4e9324ea9
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18:31:25 <ezzieyguywuf> hm, I think I'm starting to understand, my issue is not at compile-time it is at run-time
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18:38:12 <ezzieyguywuf> I believe this is the issue I'm seeing!!! https://github.com/sol/doctest/issues/119
18:38:50 <glguy> that does look like a pretty tight fit to what you've described
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18:40:18 <ezzieyguywuf> yea, especially this comment describes it exactly https://github.com/sol/doctest/issues/119#issuecomment-415820972
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18:44:46 <ezzieyguywuf> nice: so `cabal v1-configure; cabal v1-build; cabal v1-doctest` resolves the problem
18:45:05 <ezzieyguywuf> I'm still left wondering why it hasn't (yet?) been ported to v2, but it def seems I'm on the right path
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18:45:30 <merijn> doctest is *hard*
18:46:29 <ezzieyguywuf> lol
18:46:49 <ezzieyguywuf> it seems to be more hard than it's worth honestly, I wonder what the payoff is
18:47:01 <merijn> I think it works in v1 because, essentially, v1 is pretty unprincipled and ad hoc
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19:12:12 <hyperisco> I have a list xs , and I have takeWhile p xs and dropWhile p xs … if takeWhile p xs evaluates first, I already know where dropWhile p xs starts. How can I share this knowledge?
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19:13:01 <merijn> eh, there was one in Data.List
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19:13:27 <merijn> Ah
19:13:29 <merijn> :t span
19:13:30 <lambdabot> (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> ([a], [a])
19:13:36 <hyperisco> operationally, reaching the end of takeWhile p xs should assign the tail to a variable, and dropWhile p xs should read that variable or force takeWhile p xs if it is not assigned
19:13:57 <merijn> hyperisco: It even mentions takeWhile + dropWhile in the docs :p
19:15:02 <c_wraith> and the implementation is careful to be lazy enough to meet that operational guideline
19:15:18 <xerox_> @src span
19:15:18 <lambdabot> span _ xs@[] = (xs, xs)
19:15:18 <lambdabot> span p xs@(x:xs') | p x = let (ys,zs) = span p xs' in (x:ys,zs)
19:15:18 <lambdabot> | otherwise = ([],xs)
19:15:38 <c_wraith> that's actually the implementation in base, which is uncommon. :P
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19:15:54 <c_wraith> The @src command doesn't usually give back the real implementation
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19:16:19 <hyperisco> is that stack safe?
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19:17:28 <hyperisco> I guess the recursion is guarded as long as the tuple pattern match is lazy, but I don't think it is
19:18:06 <c_wraith> I don't see a case on the tuple
19:18:27 <hyperisco> do you know how let patterns are desugared?
19:18:31 <c_wraith> yes
19:18:39 <c_wraith> they're irrefutable matches
19:18:47 <hyperisco> oh, okay
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19:20:56 <jfe> hi all. has anyone thought of building a "big data" frontend for haskell? seems like lazy evaluation would be a good fit for that space.
19:21:19 <merijn> Define "big data"
19:21:30 <merijn> In my experience basically no one has big data to begin with >.>
19:21:30 <jfe> no.
19:21:34 <jfe> :)
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19:21:50 <merijn> Oh well, then it's easy
19:21:57 <merijn> "Yes, no, maybe, it depends"
19:22:19 <jfe> i agree with you, hardly anyone has the scale of data necessary to justify the tools.
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19:22:51 <jfe> that's a separate topic though. i'm saying, for those who do...
19:22:59 <jfe> s/saying/asking/
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19:23:38 <merijn> tbh, laziness isn't really that desirable for that anyway. You'd sooner want something like the streaming libraries instead
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19:25:47 <dminuoso> Re "big data". It kind of reminds me how often I hear people talking about "we have this big database", just to realize they have talkes with a few hundred thousand rows...
19:26:12 <dminuoso> *tables
19:26:36 <merijn> dminuoso: Oh, my SQLite database is big data, then \o/
19:27:43 <dminuoso> merijn: Well the term "big data" is just a buzzword people throw around with their circlejerk buddies. It has no coherent meaning, but managers do like it because they confuse correlation and causality, hoping that if they too accumulate data like Google, they will become a tech giant..
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19:28:07 <dminuoso> And you can just use it everywhere and impress the other folks who are just as clueless are you.
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19:29:12 <dminuoso> On a technical level, it frequently is about people having terribly inefficient programs and datahousing, and lack of algorithmic skills...
19:29:12 <c_wraith> It's fun that even people who are tech-savvy in general seem to not understand just how fast computers are. A million records? That's nothing for a linear scan!
19:29:28 <dminuoso> But hey, if you can just throw machine learning on it, you have two cyber technologies now.
19:29:28 <__monty__> Can we at least posit a lower bound, something like "If it fits on a single machine, it's not big data."
19:30:27 <monochrom> Yes, I usually do that.
19:31:03 <monochrom> Note that it is time varying (every year, even new PCs get a larger disk). But it's OK.
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19:31:30 <c_wraith> reminds me of an older book on managing large datasets. It's actually a pretty good book. But it's old enough that the title is "Managing Gigabytes". These days, you do that by "loading it into RAM".
19:31:50 <dminuoso> My main problem with "big data" is how relative it is. Say you have two datasets of a billion rows, and you want to find some common dataset between them, you could either be smart and perhaps sort them in some manner or put them into a datastructure and operate on them..
19:32:13 <dminuoso> Or you just give up, do the naive brute force attempt, and fail because its computationally too expensive, label it as "big data", and have your reason to buy expensive "big data analyst tool"
19:32:50 <MrMobius> I dont think thats what they mean by big data
19:33:00 <monochrom> I also want to point out that serious, professional, niche big data exists. It is just that average people want to look impressive by hijacking the name for their puny problem domains, spoiling the whole thing.
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19:33:32 <dminuoso> Right.
19:33:33 <monochrom> At the scale of Google, Microsoft, and NSA, they do have big data.
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19:34:04 <monochrom> But every one-person company is also going to claim "I have big data" and "I want to motivate my employees like Google does".
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19:34:32 <merijn> monochrom: By crushing any rumours of unionization? >.>
19:34:32 <monochrom> Fact: If you don't spend big money, you don't have big data and you have nothing to motivate your employees.
19:34:59 <monochrom> Heh, but they also free gourmet food and free game rooms.
19:35:10 <monochrom> s/also/offer/
19:35:54 <monochrom> probably better wording: "I want my employees to be as motivated as Google employees"
19:36:19 <dminuoso> monochrom: Id phrase it differently: big data is when you have highly skilled teams that just can't engineer solutions for the amount of data your business already needs (!) anymore.
19:36:36 <dminuoso> Most companies meddling with "big data" have neither skilled teams, nor do they rely on the data to begin with
19:37:17 <merijn> I think we have drifted offtopic :p
19:37:19 <dminuoso> (that was incomplete, "engineer solutions using regular algorithms and computers")
19:37:20 <monochrom> nor do they provide gourmet food or game rooms
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19:39:35 <monochrom> nor "20% of your time can be on personal projects such as learning Haskell" to bring us back :)
19:40:31 <hyperisco> not sure why I was having such a difficult time conceiving of how span works… thanks
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19:53:00 <ski> hyperisco : that tuple pattern match is not strict
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20:04:46 <MrMuffles[m]> <monochrom "Heh, but they also free gourmet "> Gourmet food != motivation
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20:09:53 <Kronic> Does anyone know why I might be facing this issue? https://dpaste.org/yqv1 I setup a new IHP project after following the install instructions and generating a default hie.yaml using gen-hie, however it just explodes everytime I try to run the language server resulting in redlines everywhere in neovim
20:10:16 <adamCS> I'm trying to serialize a set of things (in this case vinyl records) to a ByteString. I'm discovering that it is...difficult to do this in a way that doesn't leak memory. I'm using a streamly stream which reads lines from csv, parses the fields and constructs a vinyl Record. Each Record is serialized using cereal (toBS !x = runPut x $! put x). Given that, I've tried various things:
20:10:39 <adamCS> 1. Convert each directly to strict ByteString and concatenate those directly. Slow but doesn't leak.
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20:11:11 <adamCS> 2. Convert each, then use fast-builder. That does leak.
20:11:48 <adamCS> 3. Use the builder in the bytestring package. That leaks more! Thought I might be doing something very silly with strict vs. lazy bytestrings there.
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20:13:07 <adamCS> I've even tried to use "deepseq" to force the vinyl Record to be converted somehow more strictly but that doesn't change anything, clarifying that I don't really understand what's happening.
20:14:51 <adamCS> So my question, I guess, is if there is some way to get the memory footprint/no leak of the direct concatenation but the speed of something like the builder? Because my actual data is large enough that the leaky versions are bad.
20:15:18 <adamCS> But also, I would just like to understand what is happening...
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20:31:30 <nshepperd> isn't the Put type already a builder-like thing
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20:31:48 <merijn> yes
20:32:20 <merijn> Also
20:32:27 <merijn> Consider using binary?
20:32:28 <nshepperd> so why not directly traverse over the list with put
20:33:28 <adamCS> nshepperd: I'll try directly with put. I've been on quite a wander so I might've missed that option.
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20:33:58 <adamCS> merijn: Why try binary for this?
20:34:02 <nshepperd> what's the difference between binary and cereal
20:34:22 <nshepperd> I've used both before and they seemed basically identical
20:34:34 <glguy> cereal is more or less unmaintained and existed because binary didn't have the features it has now
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20:35:39 <merijn> cereal serialised to lazy ByteString
20:35:49 <merijn> or was it strict?
20:35:52 <merijn> I forget
20:35:54 <glguy> cereal had a copy of binary's Put
20:36:00 <merijn> either way, one was strict, the other was lazy
20:36:05 <merijn> Now binary does both
20:36:17 <merijn> And cereal is, indeed, mostly unmaintained afaik
20:36:23 <glguy> cereal was for strict bytestrings and had support for isolating subregions with better error reporting
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20:36:50 <glguy> and then binary stopped being as lazy and exposed a chunk-based interface
20:37:17 <glguy> It came out of an IPsec implementation we did
20:42:28 <adamCS> nsheppard: Using put directly is much leakier!
20:42:40 <adamCS> I thnshepperd: ^
20:42:48 <adamCS> nshepperd ^^
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20:44:38 <adamCS> using fast-builder, I think it's just the builder stuff itself that is accumulating? I don't see types from the Records themselves. Using put directly, I see acumulating bits os he records. The data, once a single bytestring, is about 10MB. The leaky version using fast builder grows to about 20MB. The put version grows to 115MB.
20:45:00 <merijn> measured how?
20:45:11 <glguy> Is the code online somewhere?
20:45:13 <adamCS> Using heap profiling.
20:45:21 <merijn> Also
20:45:24 <merijn> Define leak :p
20:45:29 <adamCS> It is but it is so very messy.
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20:46:04 <adamCS> Right. Maybe that is just the cost I need to pay for the speed of the builder?
20:46:14 <merijn> maybe?
20:47:31 <adamCS> Though the put thing seems like a leak in the sense that my 100,000 records, which make a 10MB bytestring, generate 40MB of "&:" (a Record constructor) while the bytestring is being built.
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20:47:32 <nshepperd> maybe you have too many !s
20:48:11 <adamCS> And I'm pretty sure that I've done the biographical thing and a lot of those are "void" which, I think, means never used.
20:48:18 <adamCS> But to be fair, that was a while back.
20:48:38 <adamCS> nshepperd: ?
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20:51:05 <nshepperd> using bang patterns to make things strict sometimes makes memory usage worse
20:52:00 <adamCS> More generally, I have assorted situations where I have a stream of Records. Some folds of those streams do not "leak" (fair point that I am not defining that precisely), like a fold which uses mutable vectors to build a "Frame". But this fold to bytestring does, unless I concatenate each bytestring directly. And another which tries to put them in something like and Boxed vector (a streamly array type).
20:53:09 <adamCS> nshepperd: so far, adding the "!" has resulted in the leaks being smaller, in the sense of peak memory reached to do the same task is overshooting the "no-leak" case by less.
20:53:22 <adamCS> But I haven't tried all possible combinations.
20:53:25 <adamCS> :)
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20:53:49 <kw> Does the Functor law `forall f g. fmap g . fmap f  =  fmap (g . f)` conventionally include the case of `g _ = ()` and `f = undefined`? Or are strict tuple Functor instances given a pass?
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20:55:05 <nshepperd> maybe the problem is that streamly isn't lazy enough
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20:56:03 <merijn> kw: Laws are generally specified as being in a total language
20:56:14 <adamCS> nshepperd: I think I can test that...I can fold the stream to a lazy list and then mconcat that?
20:56:15 <merijn> kw: See also "Fast and Loose Reasoning is Morally Correct"
20:57:10 <kw> Thanks, merijn.
20:57:26 <nshepperd> that probably won't help
20:57:49 <monochrom> `g _ = ()` and `f = undefined` still satisfies the functor law for [] and Maybe.
20:57:51 <merijn> kw: So no one (except a tiny handful of people) cares about strictness of laws, since (at worst) some code that shouldn't work, works anyway
20:58:12 <monochrom> strict tuple can be the oddball here, depending on which category you have in mind.
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20:59:14 <monochrom> In most categories that fit well with Haskell's non-strictness, strict tuple is the ignored one because it doesn't stand for product. (vanilla tuple does.)
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21:01:11 <nshepperd> adamCS: try folding over your stream with foldr to create the Put action
21:01:20 <kw> @monochrom: Aside from being able to use `seq` to test whether `x :: Vanilla (a, b)` is `undefined` or `Vanilla (undefined, undefined)`.
21:01:20 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
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21:01:40 <merijn> adamCS: Anyway, if you're serialising 100k records you probably wanna use some streaming solution anyway
21:01:49 <adamCS> nshepperd: Okay..couple minutes...
21:03:05 <nshepperd> actually no, you need to produce the bytestring within that fold too somehow i think
21:03:20 <merijn> binary-conduit or something like that
21:03:22 <adamCS> merijn: Yes. Although loading to Frame works and I often have the much larger (25 Million records) data set in that form. It's these other conversions that cause issues.
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21:04:52 <adamCS> merijn: Not everything that I do with the data can happen in streaming form.
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21:06:36 <adamCS> And once I get the data as a frame, it's fine. But I'm also trying to cache it, on disk and in memory, and that requires rare-but-not-unique loading from csv to records to bytestring, etc.
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21:08:47 <nshepperd> foldr (\x xs -> let b = runPut (put x) in seq b (ByteString.fromStrict b <> xs)) or something
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21:10:10 <nshepperd> nah, that won't work either
21:10:12 <adamCS> nshepperd: I'll try that. Lazy list was very bad!
21:10:19 <adamCS> nshepperd: Okay!
21:10:22 <nshepperd> streaming libraries are the worst
21:11:02 <adamCS> nshepperd: why?
21:12:01 <nshepperd> because they're not lazy lists lol
21:12:45 <adamCS> nshepperd: you were thinking foldr because it's like composing functions rather than accumulating results?
21:13:02 <adamCS> which is what the Builders are doing also, somehow?
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21:14:08 <kw> Could be wrong about this but I think Builders just perform unsafe IO on a large mutable buffer.
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21:15:54 <kw> :)
21:16:07 <adamCS> kw: Then the "leak" is more confusing. Then I'd think the heap profile would step up as that buffer is grown and then stop. But it goes up linearly.
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21:17:28 <adamCS> When I concatenate the strict bytestrings I get the stepping, which makes sense to me. But the linear thing is something allocating as each record is processed.
21:17:46 <Kronic> Anyone catch my question from earlier?
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21:18:55 <nshepperd> your stream is like a reified loop in IO
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21:19:29 <nshepperd> you need to somehow interleave writing the output bytestring with the io that reads the input
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21:22:14 <adamCS> nshepperd: That almost makes sense to me! But why?
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21:25:08 <adamCS> nshepperd: I mean, that's kind of what happens in the direct concat case, right? I'm just building it one record worth of ByteString at a time.
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21:28:22 <nshepperd> in theory yes, but i dunno if that will automatically evaluate things in the right order
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21:31:05 <nshepperd> foldl' (\acc x -> let b = runPut (put x) in seq b (acc <> toBuilder b)) mempty
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21:33:39 <nshepperd> this one should result in all the bytestrings existing in memory at once, but not the records
21:33:50 <nshepperd> (use strict bytestring)
21:34:02 <itai33[m]> is a @since haddock appropriate when you just change the type of a function?
21:34:04 <adamCS> nshepperd: I'm going to try it!
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21:45:21 <adamCS> nshepperd: fascinating. It does the right thing until, I think, I call the function to get the bytes from the builder. Then it spikes up to even higher than the version I had before. Slow direct concatenation steps up to about 10MB. My previous builder folds go linearly up to about 20MB. This one steps up to about 9MB, then goes fast linear to almost 30MB.
21:45:59 <adamCS> nshepperd: But maybe that's an artifact of something else. Lemme try it all in IO...
21:46:45 <fnurglewitz> hi, I'm trying to use servant's hoistServer to pass (with a reader) a context which could have more than 1 database implementations (eg. a TVar with a Map or a connection pool of a sql database), I defined a typeclass that defines the operations that this "DB" admits but I'm unsure on how I could put them inside the context type, can anyone point me to some code that does this pls?
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21:50:30 <nshepperd> how mysterious
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21:56:51 <mctpyt> hello! a question regarding internationalization, I've been trying to use hgettext but its dependencies seems to be broken, and I also found haskell-gettext and Shakespeare; are there any recommendations on which to use?, I'm not using Yesod and I'd prefer to have gettext, but I wonder which is the most popular approach on Haskell (I only found that Pandoc uses Shakespeare a little bit)
21:58:18 <adamCS> nshepperd: Even weirder. In IO, that version looks like the others, linear growth to about 20MB. Previous version was in a Polysemy stack. Hadn't imagined that would matter but I may as well stay directly in IO for simplicity.
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22:14:12 <ij> can I add {-# UNPACK #-}s in named records?
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22:15:18 <dolio> Yes.
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22:16:04 <monochrom> Pretty sure the GHC user's guide has examples of exactly how to do it.
22:16:09 <ij> ah, the unpacks and bangs go before types no matter how
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22:16:26 <ij> monochrom, yeah, but only on unnamed records – couldn't connect the dots
22:16:51 <adamCS> nshepperd: That version was using fast-builder and strict bytestrings. Switched out for the builder in the bytestring package--thus building with lazy bytestrings--that one is much worse, as I think you knew it would be. Thanks for all the help! I'm just going to have to try more things or put up with the slowness of direct concatenation...
22:18:00 <monochrom> Yikes, it doesn't.
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22:32:13 <ij> does haskell language server support sorting imports?
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22:34:30 <ij> formatOnImportOn is probably not related
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22:37:42 <ep1ctetus> can anyone recommend a library to print record types nicely?
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22:40:52 <ij> so if I do stuff in IO and I want a MVector, then it's going to be MVector RealWorld a, because PrimState IO is RealWorld?
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22:42:43 <sm[m]> ep1ctetus: pretty-simple
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22:46:27 <ij> why does the MVector need (PrimState m) as a type argument?
22:47:17 <ij> (type parameters is the accepted terminology, I guess)
22:48:08 <ep1ctetus> sm[m], thank you
22:49:24 <ep1ctetus> this is excellent
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23:19:09 <ij> unpacking a mutable unboxed vector is probably not possible
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23:19:25 <ij> because you would have to have a modify/set that mutates the whole record
23:20:14 <justsomeguy> Can I use let..in inside a do block? Or is there something like it that I can use?
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23:20:58 <ij> justsomeguy, likely, just make sure it returns an IO
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23:27:18 <lyxia> there's a dedicated "let" syntax in do blocks
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23:31:03 <justsomeguy> I ended up using that.
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23:32:26 <ij> :t fmap join . traverse
23:32:27 <lambdabot> (Monad m, Traversable m) => (a1 -> m a2) -> m a1 -> m a2
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23:41:42 monochrom sets mode -o monochrom
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23:55:06 <unclechu> about lenses. how could i set a deep nested value with lenses if there is none?
23:55:07 <unclechu> e.g. i use lens-aeson and trying to `object [] & key "foo" . key "bar" . _Array .~ [Number 123]`
23:55:12 → maxsu joins (~maxsu@ip-64-72-99-232.lasvegas.net)
23:55:20 <unclechu> i’d like to get `object ["foo" .= object ["bar" .= Array [Number 123]]]` as a result
23:55:48 → niekvandepas joins (~niekvande@dhcp-077-249-088-250.chello.nl)
23:55:49 <unclechu> the point is that i already have a lens, i’m updating the existing value but in case there is none i want to add it
23:55:51 × star_cloud quits (~star_clou@ec2-34-220-44-120.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
23:56:02 <unclechu> and to add the whole path
23:56:05 → star_cloud joins (~star_clou@ec2-34-220-44-120.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com)
23:56:13 <unclechu> maybe just "foo" exists
23:57:13 × acarrico quits (~acarrico@dhcp-68-142-39-249.greenmountainaccess.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
23:58:28 → worc3131 joins (~quassel@2a02:c7f:dcc4:6500:cf0e:3346:8766:ab20)
23:59:56 × niekvandepas quits (~niekvande@dhcp-077-249-088-250.chello.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)

All times are in UTC on 2021-01-15.