Home freenode/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2021-01-23 (freenode/#haskell)

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01:33:58 <hololeap> how would i make this data-files section togglable with a flag? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/fourmolu-0.3.0.0/fourmolu.cabal
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02:06:08 hackage mealy 0.0.3 - See readme.md https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mealy-0.0.3 (tonyday567)
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02:46:37 hackage ephemeral 0.0.1 - See readme.md https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ephemeral-0.0.1 (tonyday567)
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03:07:10 <superstar64> is there a tool to find unused typeclasses instances in my code base?
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03:15:33 <_deepfire> Great question, I'd like to know too..
03:16:34 <glguy> I thought weeder might do it, but that's specifically listed as one of the limitations
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03:45:33 <zebrag> [quote]: an applicative functor is just a functor that knows how to lift functions of arbitrary arities. (Isn't that awesome?)
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03:58:25 <_deepfire> zebrag: where is that quote coming from, if I may ask?
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04:09:38 <zebrag> _deepfire: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1403.0749.pdf
04:12:04 <zebrag> Free Applicative Functors, Capriotty and Kaposi, 2014
04:12:15 <zebrag> p. 7
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04:37:45 <jb11235> ?wiki monad
04:37:45 <lambdabot> https://wiki.haskell.org/monad
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04:41:37 <jb11238> ?wiki yama
04:41:38 <lambdabot> https://wiki.haskell.org/yama
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07:26:44 × avdb quits (~avdb@gateway/tor-sasl/avdb) (Remote host closed the connection)
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07:56:36 × kupi quits (uid212005@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-icnvzxdrjjpkjriu) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
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08:04:50 × hannah quits (546babef@84-107-171-239.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: hannah)
08:07:09 × Jd007 quits (~Jd007@162.156.11.151) (Quit: Jd007)
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08:14:25 × coot quits (~coot@37.30.55.132.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl) (Quit: coot)
08:17:01 × livvy quits (~livvy@gateway/tor-sasl/livvy) (Remote host closed the connection)
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08:23:27 × marinelli quits (~marinelli@gateway/tor-sasl/marinelli) (Quit: marinelli)
08:24:18 × Katarushisu quits (~Katarushi@cpc152083-finc20-2-0-cust170.4-2.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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08:40:14 × adm quits (~adm@117.208.21.89) (Remote host closed the connection)
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08:49:32 → adm joins (~adm@117.208.21.89)
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08:54:39 × tessier quits (~treed@98.171.210.130) (Changing host)
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08:58:00 × adm quits (~adm@117.208.21.89) (Remote host closed the connection)
08:58:29 Black is now known as Benett
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09:01:41 Guest18945 is now known as lep-delete
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09:04:35 × bram[m]1 quits (bramvdbnet@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-flausrfxdvvarwxm) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × Vanilla[m] quits (danielm14@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-awxjutosftkuncfl) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × freeman42x[m] quits (freeman42x@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hbzkaijufkzzcjdd) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × kadoban quits (kadobanmat@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-zsqqnlgeeerpazoa) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × fgaz quits (fgazmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qwcblseffshwekwg) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × hyiltiz-M quits (hyiltizkde@gateway/shell/kde/matrix/x-jljmxicmadzpzslm) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × benschza quits (~quassel@2604:1380:2000:cf00::1) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × oats quits (~hurr@durr/im/a/sheep) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × megaTherion quits (~therion@unix.io) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × benl23 quits (sid284234@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-thfjynaiimpinank) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × PoliticsII______ quits (sid193551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gnzqtdutccexjywp) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × adius quits (sid321344@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rpilxswwqsdjkidt) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × simony quits (sid226116@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iftxdytnixkwmkyg) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × lexi-lambda quits (sid92601@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wazvuheyipjhlewf) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × sis7 quits (~user@2001:15e8:110:473e::1) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × zhulikas quits (~derp@213.239.204.108) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × rslima_____ quits (sid26145@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bfeyyrmllgmhdyap) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × \2E0KNO quits (~retlo@172.245.134.89) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × Putonlalla quits (~sapekiis@it-cyan.it.jyu.fi) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × ephemera_ quits (~E@122.34.1.187) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × alinab quits (sid468903@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fkffdhjrtekfjgxd) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × zgrep quits (~zgrep@ircpuzzles/2015/april-fools/sixth/zgrep) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × xsarnik0 quits (xsarnik@gateway/shell/fi.muni.cz/x-wrudlzggfhmxxjno) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × SolarAquarion quits (SolarAquar@gateway/shell/panicbnc/x-vaxxzctuxkewousu) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × TimWolla quits (~timwolla@2a01:4f8:150:6153:beef::6667) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × amatecha__ quits (sid10006@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jdqgbwrgwdnkyeme) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × nerdypepper quits (~nerdypepp@152.67.162.71) (*.net *.split)
09:04:35 × nemesit|znc quits (~nemesit@2a01:488:66:1000:2ea3:4eeb:0:1) (*.net *.split)
09:06:07 × livvy quits (~livvy@gateway/tor-sasl/livvy) (Remote host closed the connection)
09:06:12 × heatsink quits (~heatsink@107-136-5-69.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
09:06:18 → livvy joins (~livvy@gateway/tor-sasl/livvy)
09:06:36 → bram[m]1 joins (bramvdbnet@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-flausrfxdvvarwxm)
09:06:36 → Vanilla[m] joins (danielm14@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-awxjutosftkuncfl)
09:06:36 → freeman42x[m] joins (freeman42x@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hbzkaijufkzzcjdd)
09:06:36 → kadoban joins (kadobanmat@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-zsqqnlgeeerpazoa)
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09:06:36 → hyiltiz-M joins (hyiltizkde@gateway/shell/kde/matrix/x-jljmxicmadzpzslm)
09:06:36 → benschza joins (~quassel@2604:1380:2000:cf00::1)
09:06:36 → oats joins (~hurr@durr/im/a/sheep)
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09:46:33 <noop_noob> Why is "toList" not a minimal complete definition for Foldable?
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09:47:34 <noop_noob> And is there a type used in practice that's Foldable but not Traversible?
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09:48:28 <LKoen> maybe a Hadoop database could be Foldable but not Traversible?
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09:49:48 <noop_noob> LKoen: Sorry, but right now I kinda have no intuition at all of what Traversible means. Could you elaborate?
09:50:52 <noop_noob> Why is "toList" not a minimal complete definition for Foldable?
09:50:56 <noop_noob> And is there a type used in practice that's Foldable but not Traversible?
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09:52:57 <maerwald> noop_noob: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/containers-0.6.4.1/docs/Data-Set.html#t:Set
09:53:17 <maerwald> https://stackoverflow.com/a/13730718
09:55:13 <LKoen> noop_noob: I'm really not proficient enough in haskell to be the one answering your question
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09:56:05 <noop_noob> maerwald Thanks. That makes sense.
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09:56:20 <noop_noob> Is there a practical thing that's a Functor and a Foldable, but not Traversible though?
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09:58:15 <noop_noob> why are so many people joining then leaving lol
09:58:26 <maerwald> maybe something that is an unlawful instance
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10:06:00 <hc> it's just that unstable matrix bridge
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10:08:41 <noop_noob> I tried googling and found this example of a type that's foldable, a functor, but not traversible https://stackoverflow.com/a/12896512/1035985
10:08:52 <noop_noob> data Store f a b = Store (f a) (a -> b)
10:09:01 <noop_noob> I'm trying to figure it out...
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10:10:39 <noop_noob> I'm confused lol
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10:14:14 <shachaf> Calling that "Store" is pretty odd if you ask me.
10:14:15 <noop_noob> Can somebody explain why it can't be an Applicative for me? Reading the link confuses me.
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10:15:20 <noop_noob> shachaf, I can't come up with a better name lol
10:15:50 <noop_noob> Someone in the comment suggested "Coyoneda"...
10:15:52 <shachaf> This is like Coyoneda without the existential.
10:16:01 <shachaf> Ah, right.
10:16:06 <noop_noob> I have no idea what a coyodena is
10:16:09 <noop_noob> lol
10:16:11 <shachaf> Well, not important.
10:16:20 <noop_noob> sounds like a cross between a coyote and yoda
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10:18:24 <noop_noob> So... let's call it a FoldableWrapper
10:18:43 <noop_noob> data FoldableWrapper f a b = FoldableWrapper (f a) (a->b)
10:19:02 <noop_noob> instance Functor (FoldableWrapper f a) where ...
10:19:14 <shachaf> Well, whatever, real Coyoneda would be an even better example.
10:19:38 <noop_noob> instance (Foldable f) => Foldable (FoldableWrapper f a)
10:19:50 <noop_noob> I'm trying to figure out why this can't be Transversible.
10:19:54 <shachaf> The main problem is that Foldable doesn't have any clear laws, is the real issue.
10:20:17 <shachaf> For example, for any T, instance Foldable T where foldMap _ _ = mempty is a valid instance.
10:20:22 <noop_noob> I find it odd that I can't define a Foldable instance by just implementing toList. Is there a reason?
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10:21:25 <shachaf> Hmm, not exactly, I think toList would work.
10:21:34 <shachaf> It has some problems but foldr has the same problems.
10:22:14 <noop_noob> Strange.
10:22:24 <shachaf> Anyway, if you want to look at this type, the point of it is that it just stores this conversion function.
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10:22:36 <noop_noob> Thinking of Foldable as " a thing with toList" makes a lot of sense to me than anything else.
10:22:41 <noop_noob> Yes, I understand the type.
10:22:48 <shachaf> Let's make it more concrete: data WeirdList a = forall x. WeirdList [x] (x -> a)
10:22:57 <noop_noob> Ok.
10:23:07 <noop_noob> Seems like a weird list indeed
10:23:17 <shachaf> That means: A WeirdList stores a list of things of some secret type, and a conversion function to a known type.
10:23:25 <noop_noob> Yup. I understand that.
10:23:48 <noop_noob> I think the part that confuses me is a class method (is that the right terminology?) that requires a type parameter to be a Functor.
10:23:57 <noop_noob> That's one layer of abstraction to thick for my brain lol
10:24:06 <shachaf> So you can map over it, by just composing onto that function. And you can fold it, by folding over the list and then applying the function.
10:24:33 <noop_noob> Yup.
10:24:42 <shachaf> Note that, as I mentioned above, there's no law that says that's how you have to fold over it. For example "toList _ = []" would also be a valid instance.
10:24:49 <noop_noob> Yes.
10:25:04 <noop_noob> So... .what does being Traversible require?
10:25:33 <noop_noob> Traversible T requires.... traverse :: Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
10:25:43 <noop_noob> I don't understand this type signature -_-
10:25:54 <shachaf> But you can't make a Traversable instance for this, because that would require you to be able to... One thing you can say is that you can fold it, get a list of bs, do whatever you want with them, and then put them back.
10:26:03 <shachaf> Oh, is this just about understanding Traversable?
10:26:09 <shachaf> Then you definitely shouldn't start with this weird example.
10:26:24 <shachaf> Traversable is easy.
10:26:27 <shachaf> Do you know mapM?
10:26:36 <noop_noob> *opens hoogle*
10:26:54 <noop_noob> This version? Monad m => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b]
10:27:00 <shachaf> Sure.
10:27:25 <noop_noob> That's like, fmap followed by folding with (>>), right?
10:27:42 <noop_noob> Wait, no.
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10:28:19 <shachaf> Ah, you should figure this kind of thing out concretely first. Then Traversable is pretty much the same thing as mapM.
10:29:19 <noop_noob> shachaf, is this just basically the "procedural for-each loop"?
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10:29:32 <shachaf> Yep.
10:29:41 <shachaf> It maps over the thing, and has a side effect for each thing.
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10:30:04 <shachaf> And then it collects all the results in one big list with one big side effect.
10:30:32 <noop_noob> The thing is, my intuition for this is that "Oh. A Traversible is just a Foldable Functor"
10:30:48 <noop_noob> You fmap, then you fold.
10:30:49 <noop_noob> Kinda.
10:31:08 <noop_noob> I think I know the issue.
10:31:25 <noop_noob> Traversible's mapM has a signature:   (Traversable t, Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> t a -> m (t b)
10:31:51 <noop_noob> My intuitive generalization of list's mapM has the signature: (Traversable t, Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> t a -> m [b]
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10:32:09 <noop_noob> And I can't figure out how to change my intuition to make mapM have the right signature.
10:32:19 <noop_noob> shachaf, Does that make any sense?
10:32:37 <shachaf> Hmm, it just looks like fmap to me.
10:32:47 <shachaf> fmap :: (a -> b) -> t a -> t b
10:32:51 <noop_noob> It's toList followed by fmap lol
10:32:54 <shachaf> traverse :: (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
10:33:04 <shachaf> This is just fmap with some extra "f"s to indicate side effects.
10:33:44 <noop_noob> So... I can implement (Foldable t, Functor t, Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> t a -> m [b]
10:34:00 <noop_noob> But I can't convert m [b] back to m (t b)
10:34:29 <noop_noob> and uhhhh confused...
10:34:30 <noop_noob> lol
10:35:13 <shachaf> Sure, that sounds right. You can just mapM over the list to get that.
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10:35:34 <noop_noob> shachaf It seems to me that the key of Traversible is something to get `m (t b)` instead of `m [b]`?
10:35:36 <shachaf> But I'd say maybe forget about Foldable for a bit, because Traversable is more important.
10:35:40 <shachaf> And forget about lists.
10:35:54 <shachaf> Traversable instances are much more constrained than Foldable instances.
10:36:03 <noop_noob> My main intuition for Foldable is that it's a thing that can toList.
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10:36:39 <noop_noob> And I have no idea how to start thinking of Traversible without using Foldable as the basis.
10:37:34 <noop_noob> Note: My intuition for lists is that it corresponds to Iterators in other languages lol
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10:37:58 <noop_noob> shachaf, am i doing something wrong >_<
10:38:25 <shachaf> I suggest forgetting about Foldable for a bit.
10:38:40 <noop_noob> Okayyy...
10:38:41 <noop_noob> And?
10:38:43 <shachaf> Does mapM make sense?
10:38:48 <noop_noob> Yes for lists.
10:38:54 <shachaf> OK, but for other things.
10:39:08 <noop_noob> uhhh
10:39:22 <noop_noob> No..
10:39:26 <shachaf> Say for trees.
10:39:35 <shachaf> Pick some type that isn't a list, and figure out what mapM would mean for it.
10:40:21 <noop_noob> Oh. That kinda makes sense.
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10:40:57 <shachaf> Also I should really be saying traverse instead of mapM.
10:41:12 <shachaf> Do you know how Applicative works? I don't know where you're starting here.
10:41:25 <noop_noob> I kinda have an idea of how applicative works.
10:41:31 <noop_noob> But not so solid intuition.
10:41:50 <noop_noob> Traversible are for data structures, right?
10:41:58 <noop_noob> Not like Monad, where stuff like State are monads.
10:42:28 <Rembane> Isn't State a data structure?
10:42:39 <shachaf> Sure, that sounds right.
10:42:45 <noop_noob> what
10:43:07 <noop_noob> I mean... you can store functions in variables, yes.
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10:43:32 <shachaf> Ugh, Matrix is the worst.
10:43:34 <noop_noob> yay! network issues!
10:43:47 <shachaf> noop_noob: OK, here's one thing you can think conceptually:
10:43:50 <Rembane> Wow
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10:44:03 <shachaf> Traversable is like Foldable, except you can put a list back.
10:44:17 <shachaf> But it has to be of the same length as the one toList gave you.
10:44:26 <shachaf> Which is hard to express directly in Haskell's type system.
10:44:48 <shachaf> But it's sort of like this: t a -> ([a], [b] -> t b)
10:44:57 <shachaf> Where the [b] list has to be the same length as the [a] list.
10:45:10 <noop_noob> Oh
10:45:23 <noop_noob> That makes sense.
10:45:26 <shachaf> And it replaces every a in the data structure with the b in the same position.
10:45:49 <noop_noob> And the typing is weird because haskell doesn't have dependent types
10:46:10 <shachaf> Something like that, but also the scheme that Haskell uses is nicer for other reasons.
10:46:57 <Rembane> You could instead of representing it on type level add a test in QuickCheck that checks that the length is maintained.
10:47:26 <noop_noob> That explains the difficulty I had that I had to convert `m [b]` to `m (t b)`
10:48:35 <noop_noob> So... assuming I had this weird `t a -> ([a], [b] -> t b)` function, and the type system works, I can implement `traverse` ?
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10:48:52 <shachaf> Yes, and vice versa.
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10:49:08 <noop_noob> I feel like sequence is gonna make more sense to me
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10:49:16 <noop_noob> sequenceA :: Applicative f => t (f a) -> f (t a)
10:49:32 <shachaf> Hmm, I doubt it, I think traverse is probably easier to understand.
10:49:37 <shachaf> But they're pretty much equivalent.
10:49:58 <noop_noob> When I understood monads, thinking in terms of joins helped me a lot lol
10:50:11 <Rembane> IIRC, traverse == sequence . map
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10:51:36 <siraben> `x >>= f = join (fmap f x)` hehe
10:51:53 <siraben> join illustrates the monoidial nature of monads better
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10:52:15 <noop_noob> I understood monads via >=> and joins lol
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10:52:30 <noop_noob> I convert `t (f a)` to `[f a], forall b. [b] (with same length) -> t b`
10:52:32 <noop_noob> and uhhhh
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10:53:27 <noop_noob> then I turn `[f a]` into `f [a]` by doing some sort of fold.
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10:54:04 <noop_noob> Then fmap over the weird length-restricted function to get back to `f (t b)` ?
10:54:23 <noop_noob> shachaf, I think it kinda makes sense. Lemme process it.
10:54:25 <noop_noob> Thx
10:55:39 <noop_noob> (btw, I found >>= to be the most confusing operator to understand monads from lol)
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10:55:46 <shachaf> You turn [f a] into f [a] with sequence.
10:55:56 <siraben> noop_noob: it's not any different from .then() for promises, right?
10:55:57 <noop_noob> of course there's a function for that
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10:56:11 <shachaf> It's not just any function, it's the function you mentioned 7 minutes ago.
10:56:17 <noop_noob> *facepalm*
10:56:19 <siraben> :t sequence
10:56:21 <lambdabot> (Traversable t, Monad m) => t (m a) -> m (t a)
10:57:11 <ephemient> promise.then isn't exactly >>=;returning a value and returning a promise doing slightly different things in JS. but similar idea
10:57:17 <noop_noob> siraben, I could make sense of >>= in specific contexts, but for some reason it's a headache trying to see that the types check out in different contexts lol
10:57:29 <siraben> mmhm
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10:57:33 <noop_noob> *to see that the types are the same
10:57:38 <noop_noob> idk my brain seems to work weird
10:58:04 <noop_noob> Like, adding a function in the type signature spills the cache in my head or something lol
10:59:50 <noop_noob> When I see `m a`, I often mentally replace it with `() -> m a`. Helps keep me sane lol
11:00:12 <noop_noob> Wait, then is there an applicative that's not a monad?
11:00:38 <c_wraith> of course. otherwise they wouldn't be different
11:00:55 <noop_noob> My intution for applicatives is identical to my intuition for monads lol
11:00:56 <noop_noob> -_-
11:01:21 <ephemient> applicative lacks join/bind (whichever you prefer to reason about monads with)
11:01:28 <noop_noob> You can't just convert between `a -> m b` and `m (a -> b)`, right?
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11:04:02 <ephemient> I don't think () -> m a is very helpful in general
11:04:04 <noop_noob> `>=>` :: (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> (a -> m c)
11:04:05 <noop_noob> (liftA2 (flip (.))) :: (Applicative f) => f (a -> b) -> f (b -> c) -> f (a -> c)
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11:04:11 <noop_noob> I'm confused.
11:04:32 <ephemient> IO a is a description of an IO action producing a; adding () -> in front doesn't change that
11:04:58 <maerwald> in applicative, the effects can't branch
11:05:02 <noop_noob> ephemient, I know it doesn't matter. But pretending the "()->" is there helps me somehow.
11:05:27 <maerwald> in monad, effects can branch unpredictably (depending on the value)
11:05:38 <noop_noob> In applicatives, "f (a->b)" are monoid-ish.
11:05:48 <noop_noob> In monads, "a -> f b" are monoid-ish.
11:05:55 <maerwald> In Selective, effects can branch, but only predictevely
11:06:05 <noop_noob> Selective?
11:06:32 <maerwald> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/selective
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11:07:11 <noop_noob> select :: f (Either a b) -> f (a -> b) -> f b
11:07:11 <noop_noob> The heck?
11:07:12 <maerwald> (<*?) :: Selective f => f (Either a b) -> f (a -> b) -> f b
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11:07:48 <noop_noob> Oh wait.
11:08:01 <noop_noob> It makes sense if I think of it in terms of [a->b] vs a->[b] lol
11:08:01 <noop_noob> nvm
11:08:02 <maerwald> "Think of select as a selective function application99,99: you must apply99,99 the function of type a -> b when given a value of type Left a, but you may skip99,99 the function and associated effects, and simply return b when given Right b."
11:08:48 <maerwald> also see https://neilmitchell.blogspot.com/2019/10/monads-as-graphs.html?m=1
11:08:48 <shachaf> I don't know what any of this select business has to do with it.
11:08:58 <merijn> noop_noob: Don't know if anyone mentioned it while I was disconnected, but there's a simpler example of "Foldable, but not Traversable", Set
11:09:01 <shachaf> I would not focus on it right now.
11:09:13 <merijn> oh wait, I guess not, since Foldable requires Functor
11:09:31 <noop_noob> merijn, Already mentioned. Foldable doesn't required Functor.
11:09:35 <merijn> oh, no Traversable require Functor
11:09:48 <noop_noob> My natural next question was whether there's a non-traversable foldable functor
11:10:02 <maerwald> merijn: Set was discussed an hour ago
11:10:15 <shachaf> "(Double ->)" is also Foldable and Functor but not Traversable, or something.
11:10:23 <shachaf> Everything is Foldable.
11:10:25 <merijn> maerwald: I lost connection a few minutes after the question :p
11:10:37 <shachaf> Logs are in the topic.
11:10:39 <noop_noob> wait, why is (Double->) foldable
11:10:50 <c_wraith> shachaf: I don't think ((->) Double) is foldable
11:10:59 <shachaf> Because instance Foldable (Double ->) where foldMap _ _ = mempty
11:11:05 <noop_noob> -_-
11:11:10 <shachaf> "Foldable" doesn't really mean much, is the point.
11:11:15 <maerwald> shachaf: Selective has to do a lot with intuition about applicative, monad etc
11:11:19 <noop_noob> fine lol
11:11:45 <merijn> noop_noob: Foldable isn't a particularly elegant abstraction, tbh :p
11:12:08 <shachaf> I like Foldable. It has a nice analogy to Traversable. But I wouldn't look to it for meaning.
11:12:13 <noop_noob> Foldable is just other language's Iterable, right?
11:12:14 <merijn> noop_noob: Anything that correspond to "a set of values that can be smashed together" is foldable, which is basically everything :p
11:12:34 <noop_noob> List = iterator
11:12:34 <merijn> noop_noob: shachaf is right that Foldable is best thought of in relation to Traversable
11:12:37 <noop_noob> Foldable = iterable
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11:13:26 <merijn> Traversable is "structure preserving effectful map", Foldable is "traversable, but instead of preserving structure we smoosh all values together"
11:13:50 <noop_noob> Oh.
11:14:19 <noop_noob> That makes a lot of sense.
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11:14:37 <ephemient> not a perfect analogy... with "iterator" you might expect to be able to early terminate, but fold doesn't
11:14:43 <noop_noob> Traversible corresponds to (in a procedural language) a thing that supports "for each" loops that modify the elements?
11:14:53 <merijn> noop_noob: Roughly, yeah
11:14:59 <merijn> :t traverse
11:15:00 <lambdabot> (Traversable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
11:15:11 <noop_noob> ephemient Why can't I "early terminate" a fold if I just make the function ignore an argument?
11:15:25 <merijn> noop_noob: You can :p
11:15:48 <merijn> > foldr const 0 [1..10]
11:15:50 <lambdabot> 1
11:15:54 <merijn> boom
11:16:08 <c_wraith> Though you do need to know what direction the data structure associates so that you can match your applicative to it
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11:16:49 <c_wraith> or monoid, I suppose, for Foldable
11:17:31 <maerwald> const is lazy in it's second argument, so this truly "terminates" early
11:18:03 <noop_noob> > foldr const 0 [1,2,3..]
11:18:05 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:21: error: <hint>:1:21: error: parse error on input ‘..’
11:18:20 <noop_noob> > foldr const 0 [1,2,3...]
11:18:22 <lambdabot> error:
11:18:22 <lambdabot> A section must be enclosed in parentheses thus: (3 ...)
11:18:34 <c_wraith> you can't provide 3 values before ..
11:18:34 <merijn> noop_noob: You can only have 1 argument
11:18:39 <noop_noob> oof
11:18:40 <noop_noob> lol
11:18:41 <ephemient> 1 or 2
11:18:48 <shachaf> The "real" thing that Foldable is defined in terms of is foldMap, not foldr. It's more flexible, since foldr is for right-biased things specifically.
11:18:51 <noop_noob> > foldr const 0 [1,2..]
11:18:53 <lambdabot> 1
11:19:00 <noop_noob> laziness for the win
11:19:13 <noop_noob> foldMap?
11:19:14 <ephemient> > foldMap (const ()) [0..]
11:19:15 <lambdabot> ()
11:19:21 <merijn> :t foldMap
11:19:22 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Monoid m) => (a -> m) -> t a -> m
11:19:40 <noop_noob> *looks up the monoid functions*
11:20:01 <noop_noob> It uses mconcat in most implementations, I assume?
11:20:03 <c_wraith> as I said... to short circuit, the monoid must short circuit in the same direction as the data structure being folded puts stuff together
11:20:10 <merijn> noop_noob: the list syntax is sugar for one of the enum methods: [x..] = enumFrom, [x..y] = enumFromTo, [x,y..] = enumFromThen, [x,y..z] = enumFromThenTo
11:20:12 <noop_noob> Got it.
11:20:28 <noop_noob> Thanks
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11:22:47 <noop_noob> I assume there's a library somewhere that provides a list where the Foldable implementation is reversed?
11:23:13 <merijn> no
11:23:34 <noop_noob> Then there's a library somewhere that makes it easy for me to build this?
11:23:35 <noop_noob> lol
11:23:41 <merijn> noop_noob: "reverse" ? :p
11:23:46 <c_wraith> there are lots of libraries that provide snoc lists
11:23:55 <merijn> noop_noob: tbh, once you need to reverse a list you're kinda hosed anyway
11:23:56 <noop_noob> reverse doesn't work for infinite lists
11:24:05 <merijn> noop_noob: Yes it does :p
11:24:09 <noop_noob> wut
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11:24:32 <merijn> noop_noob: Infinite lists don't have and end for you to start at :p
11:24:41 <noop_noob> ....
11:24:43 <noop_noob> fine
11:24:46 <merijn> noop_noob: So "reversing an infinite list" is an inherently nonsensical operation
11:24:47 <noop_noob> it works by not working, sure
11:25:19 <merijn> noop_noob: Can you describe what "working" would even look like? :)
11:25:32 <merijn> Even if we have a deterministic sequence, like:
11:25:37 <merijn> > iterate (+1) 1
11:25:39 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,...
11:25:52 <merijn> Trivial to reverse, given a starting point
11:26:02 <merijn> But how would you even define the "end" to start at?
11:26:20 <noop_noob> merijn, I was thinking about making a list that implements foldMap in a way that it reverses the monoid argument order.
11:26:27 <merijn> noop_noob: Oh *that* is easy
11:26:31 <merijn> :t Dual
11:26:32 <lambdabot> a -> Dual a
11:26:43 <merijn> > [1..5] <> [6..10]
11:26:45 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10]
11:26:47 <noop_noob> Of course lol
11:26:51 <merijn> > Dual [1..5] <> Dual [6..10]
11:26:53 <lambdabot> Dual {getDual = [6,7,8,9,10,1,2,3,4,5]}
11:27:18 <noop_noob> That's what I meant when I said "Then there's a library somewhere that makes it easy for me to build this?"
11:27:19 <merijn> noop_noob: You can "reverse" "foldMap f" trivially by doing "getDual . foldMap (Dual . f)" :)
11:27:30 <noop_noob> -_-
11:27:44 <merijn> > foldMap (:[]) [1..5]
11:27:46 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5]
11:27:55 <merijn> > getDual $ foldMap (Dual . (:[])) [1..5]
11:27:56 <lambdabot> [5,4,3,2,1]
11:28:27 <shachaf> You can reverse this kind of infinite list: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/fmlist-0.9.4/docs/Data-FMList.html
11:28:35 <merijn> "instance Monoid m => Monoid (Dual m) where mappend x y = mappend y x" :)
11:28:36 <shachaf> The kind that's based on Foldable.
11:29:30 <noop_noob> what the fuck lol
11:29:58 <merijn> noop_noob: If something is a monoid then "doing the same but opposite order" is *also* a monoid
11:30:06 <noop_noob> It's.... a list that has a start, an end, but no middle?
11:30:08 <noop_noob> lol
11:30:23 <__monty__> > iterate (subtract 1) (1 / 0) -- The reverse of [1..] : )
11:30:25 <lambdabot> [Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Inf...
11:30:40 <merijn> noop_noob: Usually called the "Dual" in math speak, and the Dual newtype basically implements it for you by inverting the mappend for you
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11:38:37 hackage dep-t 0.1.3.0 - Reader-like monad transformer for dependency injection. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dep-t-0.1.3.0 (DanielDiazCarrete)
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13:03:02 <johnnyboy[m]> are there symbolic haskell evaluators (for educational/debugging purposes)?
13:03:18 <johnnyboy[m]> I mean I'd like to see how an expression evaluates, step by step
13:03:25 <johnnyboy[m]> it takes lots of effort to do that on paper
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13:05:31 <johnnyboy[m]> it would be fun to be able to reason about haskell code symbolically and maybe even do proof by induction on it
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13:11:32 <merijn> johnnyboy[m]: Sounds like you want Agda or Coq :p
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13:12:02 <ephemient> something like https://github.com/rgleichman/glance maybe?
13:12:02 <johnnyboy[m]> I'm not sure if they do this either
13:12:41 <johnnyboy[m]> I mean, Coq and Agda
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13:15:01 <ephemient> or http://ideas.cs.uu.nl/HEE/ - less weirdness than Glance, but somewhat limited
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13:25:58 <johnnyboy[m]> Glance, looks exciting, but it's not quite what I had in mind
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13:38:13 <__monty__> johnnyboy[m]: If you squint a bit purity means you get referential transparency. So evaluation order isn't as relevant as in other languages.
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13:47:19 <johnnyboy[m]> yes, but I'd still like to see how my code evaluates
13:47:40 <johnnyboy[m]> with pure untyped lambda-calculus, for instance, it's easy to just calculate what a function does
13:48:03 <johnnyboy[m]> in Haskell, it's in principle doable, but the syntax is much more complex
13:48:09 <geekosaur> ghood?
13:48:34 <johnnyboy[m]> it's like integration
13:48:49 <johnnyboy[m]> I don't want to do that by hand, bacause Wolfram Alpha exists :D
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13:49:29 <johnnyboy[m]> but I suppose integrating by hand has pedagogical value
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13:51:21 <johnnyboy[m]> ephemient: That looks like what I was looking for
13:51:22 <johnnyboy[m]> thanks!
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13:55:14 <johnnyboy[m]> Of course, Agda has this equational reasoning syntax
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13:55:44 <johnnyboy[m]> but my point was that I wanted something that gives me the chain of equations automatically
13:56:05 <johnnyboy[m]> I guess there must be lots of limitations for writing such a program
13:56:09 <johnnyboy[m]> decidability, etc.
13:56:39 <geekosaur> @hackage ghood
13:56:39 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghood
13:57:12 <geekosaur> doesn't give you the chain of equations but does show evaluation as it proceeds
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13:57:35 <johnnyboy[m]> the page says "package not found"
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13:57:57 <geekosaur> hrm, hold on
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13:59:39 <geekosaur> ah, silly me. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/GHood
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14:02:48 <fendor> __monty__, why only if you squint?
14:03:07 <__monty__> fendor: Because of unsafe*
14:04:02 <fendor> doesn't unsafe destroy purity?
14:04:20 <__monty__> Sure but there's no indication.
14:05:05 <fendor> ok, I see, thanks!
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14:56:38 <ij> does any one of Control.Lens.TH make lenses for a field "x" as "xLens" or "xL"?
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14:59:26 <ij> I guess I could use lensRules { _fieldToDef = something else }
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15:01:28 <ij> with mappingNamer
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15:03:08 <ij> has it ever happened to anyone that ghc extensions get deprecated?
15:03:13 <ij> and break your code
15:03:51 <Lycurgus> what do you think?
15:04:23 <ij> I expect to hear a bitter yes
15:04:43 <Lycurgus> (given 80% of the nicks here being human operated)
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15:05:29 <Lycurgus> this isn't a culture of embitterment, not yet at least
15:05:36 <ij> not sure what that has to do with anything
15:05:42 <Lycurgus> (i.e this the hs culture)
15:05:54 <ij> there is always room for being bitter
15:06:05 <Lycurgus> the IT culture overall is ofc
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15:06:57 <Lycurgus> the bitterable are usually attrited out by year 10 or so
15:07:05 <Lycurgus> out of doing proper anyway
15:07:35 <Lycurgus> *embitterable
15:07:51 <ij> maybe, maybe not
15:08:31 <Lycurgus> also this particular skews heavily toward academe which has a different snakepit profile, especially for tenure track peoples
15:08:45 <Lycurgus> *this partcular subsculture
15:10:00 <ski> i would like `PatternSignatures' to come back
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15:10:27 <maerwald> what's this talk about culture?
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15:11:07 <ij> ski, I can't even find any docs about it :)
15:12:21 <ephemient> API breakages happen far more often than GHC extensions being removed
15:12:25 <Lycurgus> anyway to much extension jiggering might be something to avoid merely on the principle of having more robust cfgs where possible
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15:13:45 <Lycurgus> *too
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15:15:01 <Lycurgus> further research is needed, consult your doctor, thoughts and prayers, etc.
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15:16:09 <maerwald> my doctor doesn't appreciate when i talk about haskell
15:16:40 <idnar> @hoogle Maybe a -> (a -> m ()) -> m ()
15:16:41 <lambdabot> Control.Concurrent.Async.Lifted forConcurrently_ :: (Foldable t, MonadBaseControl IO m) => t a -> (a -> m b) -> m ()
15:16:41 <lambdabot> Control.Concurrent.Async.Lifted.Safe forConcurrently_ :: (Foldable t, MonadBaseControl IO m, Forall (Pure m)) => t a -> (a -> m b) -> m ()
15:16:41 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.Extra whenJust :: Applicative m => Maybe a -> (a -> m ()) -> m ()
15:16:46 <hpc> 4 out of 5 dentists agree that you talk about haskell way too much? :D
15:17:00 <ij> idnar, isn't that void . traverse?
15:17:28 <Lycurgus> also designating an LTS level and sticking with it for a while will mitigate
15:17:49 <idnar> ij: which is traverse_; nice!
15:18:06 <ij> yup
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15:22:28 <nshepperd> quickcheck is so cool. i implemented an algorithm for computing tree decompositions using fgl, and fixed three bugs in it just by adding property tests for the three defining properties of a tree decompositions
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15:24:12 <nshepperd> just running the algorithm on the counterexamples with some Debug.Trace added
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15:32:13 <ij> It looks like there are namers exported fro Control.Lens.TH, but no way to use them generically
15:32:37 <ij> at least I haven't found it yet
15:33:36 <ij> makeLensesFor it is
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15:38:00 <dolio> ij: I think only two or three GHC extensions have ever been removed.
15:38:18 <ij> makeLensesFor ((\n -> (n, n ++ "L")) <$> ["field1", ...]) :)
15:39:00 <dolio> And the one ski is talking about might have gotten rolled into another (in a strange way), not truly removed.
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15:41:18 <ephemient> somehow I thought NPlusKPatterns was removed but it seems it was just turned off by default
15:42:13 <dolio> Yeah. Also in that case disabling them was the GHC 'extension'.
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16:09:15 <kw> Anybody know why lens's `to` used to constrain its result to `(Contravariant m, Functor m)=> (a -> m a) -> s -> m s`, but now it requires only `(Profunctor p, Contravariant m)=> p a (m a) -> p s (m s)` rather than requiring `(Profunctor p, Contravariant m, Functor m)`?
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16:34:55 <Uniaika> maerwald: ping!
16:35:19 <maerwald> what?
16:36:24 <Uniaika> maerwald: do you have any suggestion on how to preserve .ghcup between github action steps?
16:37:03 <Uniaika> I'm trying out to use ghc 9.0 in haddock CI : https://github.com/haskell/haddock/pull/1296/commits/2ec9214b3b2b8ee89154ed4949ea9f51592ab348
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16:37:17 <maerwald> it isn't there a cache?
16:37:29 <Uniaika> and while the cabal store is cached well, I have some trouble with persistence of ghcup's artifacts
16:37:34 <Uniaika> (and thus, the 9.0 compiler)
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16:38:34 <maerwald> i think you shouldn't apply a key for the ghcup cache?
16:38:48 <maerwald> line forty one
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16:40:16 <maerwald> maybe just os
16:40:19 <maerwald> the rest not
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16:41:52 <Uniaika> hm
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16:41:59 <Uniaika> I'll try that, thanks
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16:51:46 <maerwald> also note that there's a max cache size afaik
16:51:54 <maerwald> you might exceed it
16:53:47 <ski> kw : you could try asking in #haskell-lens
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16:54:50 <nly> @hoogle IO ByteString -> IO ByteString
16:54:51 <lambdabot> Control.Concurrent runInBoundThread :: IO a -> IO a
16:54:51 <lambdabot> Control.Concurrent runInUnboundThread :: IO a -> IO a
16:54:51 <lambdabot> Control.Exception mask_ :: IO a -> IO a
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16:56:04 ski looks at nly
16:56:20 <kw> ski: Thanks!
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16:58:14 <nly> don't look, help
16:58:53 <nly> io-streams should have something like Data.ByteString.Char8.take for IO ByteString
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17:04:10 <nly> oh, i added this
17:04:10 <nly> -- No haskell user shall read, use, modify or distribute this
17:04:10 <nly> -- file. Especially haskell users on #haskell @freenode.
17:04:10 <nly>
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17:06:28 <ski> i was wondering what you were wanting the `IO' for, in relation with `ByteString', and especially why you wanted `IO' in the argument type as well
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17:07:28 <nly> 1 sec
17:07:36 <ski> @type fmap . BSC.take :: Int -> IO BSC.ByteString -> IO BSC.ByteString -- but perhaps you were just looking for something like this ?
17:07:37 <lambdabot> Int -> IO BSC.ByteString -> IO BSC.ByteString
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17:07:56 <nly> omg. you're a genius thank you
17:08:37 <nly> adding this
17:08:37 <nly> -- ski can read, use, do whatever with this program
17:09:28 <nly> what's BSC
17:09:49 <ski> looking for `IO ByteString -> IO ByteString' specifically indicates that you want to relate the `IO' to the `ByteString' in some particular way. and since the `IO' is in the argument type, it suggests that you possibly wanted some "serious" use of that, like forking a thread, or establishing some dynamic context in which to run the action, or registering a callback, or something ..
17:10:06 <ski> nly : lambdabot alias for `Data.ByteString.Char8'
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17:10:58 <Uniaika> maerwald: yeah I'm not super confident :/
17:11:04 <ski> anyway, if you just wanted that `fmap', then that's not really relating `IO' to `ByteString' in any non-trivial sense .. which is what threw me off
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17:12:23 <nly> thanks. think, i got it
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17:32:10 <ij> what alternatives could you suggest to this? (\continues -> progress & continuesL .~ continues & unwindsL %~ ((cur, neighbours) :)) <$> continuesNextSorted origin'
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17:32:44 <ij> ah, just do will do
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18:14:08 hackage net-mqtt 0.7.1.0 - An MQTT Protocol Implementation. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/net-mqtt-0.7.1.0 (dustin)
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18:33:37 hackage dep-t-advice 0.1.0.0 - Giving good advice to functions in a DepT environment. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dep-t-advice-0.1.0.0 (DanielDiazCarrete)
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18:46:37 <hololeap> ok, so i have haskell-language-server installed, and it looks like ALE is installed. i have no idea what to do next...
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19:44:38 hackage hledger-stockquotes 0.1.1.0 - Generate HLedger Price Directives From Daily Stock Quotes. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hledger-stockquotes-0.1.1.0 (lysergia)
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20:06:51 <drozdziak1> Noob question here, Why does Monad need Functor and Applicative?
20:08:21 <geekosaur> An Applicative is a Functor plus some additional functionality. A Monad is an Applicative plus some additional functionality.
20:08:29 <ski> every instance of `Monad' can be made an instance of`Functor' and `Applicative', in a uniform way
20:08:58 <ski> so, might as well already require instances of `Monad' to be instances of `Functor' and `Applicative'
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20:10:52 <drozdziak1> So the requirement's main purpose is to disambiguate?
20:11:26 <ski> it used to be that the `Monad' type class had no super class specified
20:11:38 <ski> dunno what you mean by disambiguate
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20:13:27 <drozdziak1> I'm just not sure if any Monad-specific functions take advantage of Functor and Applicative properties specifically
20:14:07 <ski> drozdziak1 : tip : if you just want to make a `Monad' instance, and don't want to bother thinking about `Functor' and `Applicative', just define `fmap = liftM' in the `Functor' instance, and `pure = return' and `(<*>) = ap' in the `Applicative' one. that will work as default implementations, provided you define `return' and `(>>=)' in the `Monad' instancde
20:14:25 <drozdziak1> The differences feel subtle, But Functor vs. Applicative I already notice that in case of a tree the responsibility for handling different variants lies on Applicative instance side
20:14:43 <ski> not sure what "take advantage of Functor and Applicative properties specifically" would mean
20:15:02 <ski> does using `return' mean that you're taking advantage of an `Applicative' property ?
20:15:22 <ski> (since `pure' ought to be equal to `return', and `pure' is a method of `Applicative')
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20:15:26 <geekosaur> return is there because Applicative originally didn't exist
20:15:33 <ski> yes
20:15:42 <geekosaur> sorry, misread who said that
20:15:56 <c_wraith> :t traverse -- drozdziak1: isn't it nice to know you can use this with any instance of Monad, without checking if it's also an instance of Applicative?
20:15:57 <lambdabot> (Traversable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
20:16:16 <c_wraith> drozdziak1: when I started using Haskell, ST *wasn't* an instance of Applicative
20:16:28 <c_wraith> drozdziak1: that was annoying, because it was obvious it could be
20:16:33 <drozdziak1> ski Sorry, my knowledge is lacking. Ad. Monad-specific functions: I am trying to see if functions around Monad ever go "I'm taking this Monad m and I'm specifically using its <$> or <*> instead of >>="
20:17:09 <geekosaur> not currently, but for historical reasons
20:17:12 <c_wraith> drozdziak1: yeah, it's the other way around. It's about being sure you can use any instance of Monad with things that are polymorphic over Applicative instances
20:17:17 <ski> if you don't need `(>>=)' (or something that depends on it), then you probably don't need to assume it's an instance of `Monad'
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20:17:33 <geekosaur> arguably they should, but history didn't include Applicative so Monad reinvented it instead
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20:17:41 <geekosaur> as liftM and ap
20:17:59 <ski> `liftM' and `ap' (and `liftA') are still useful, as default implementations
20:18:54 <ski> drozdziak1 : elaborate on "in case of a tree the responsibility for handling different variants lies on Applicative instance side" ?
20:20:04 <geekosaur> and then backward compatibility argued that we continue to use liftM and ap, and let users derive Functor and Applicative using them (because Applicative was added before it was made a superclass of Monad so many programs already had such derivations)
20:20:08 <ski> drozdziak1 : would you assume `Ord a', then then only go on to use `(==)' and `(/=)', and not the ordering inequalities ?
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20:23:26 <drozdziak1> ski Ad. tree example I think I misunderstood something. I believe Functor, Applicative and Monad serve a very similar purpose. But what makes Monad especially well suited for something like IO? Wouldn't a do-syntax implementation over Functor be enough?
20:24:07 <ski> (btw, what do you mean by "Ad." ?)
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20:24:59 <ski> a `do'-notation for `Functor' would be fairly limited
20:25:25 <ski> `Applicative' and `Monad' are for expressing sequencing (of effects)
20:25:39 <ski> (the former, for "static sequencing", the latter for "dynamic sequencing")
20:25:50 <drozdziak1> ski Ad. = "regarding", I thought it was a thing in English as well
20:26:07 <sclv> they don't serve a similar purpose -- each is more specific than the prior with more power and less possible instances
20:26:07 <ski> i haven't seen it before. ty
20:26:33 <sclv> there are many things that are Functor and not monad or applicative, fewer things that are applicative but not monad, and then Very Specific things that are monad as well
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20:27:02 <sclv> don't think of it from the standpoint of "serving a purpose" -- think of it from the stand point of "having certain properties"
20:27:29 <ski> if `T' is an instance of `Functor', then you can "lift" any function of type `A -> B', into a function of type `T A -> T B'. so if `T' expresses a kind of collection, then you can "loop over all elements of the collection, of type `A', computing a `B' for each of them, getting a new collection of `B's back"
20:27:31 <sclv> there are more animals than there are mammals and more mammals than there are types of rodents
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20:28:35 <ski> if `T' is an instance of `Applicative', then you can also "lift multiple-arity functions", e.g. from `A -> B -> C' you can get to `T A -> T B -> T C'. note that this means that you're now combining one `T A' with one `T B', to get a `T C'
20:29:05 <ski> with `Functor', you just pass in a (single) `T'-collection of `A's, and get out a `T'-collection of `B's
20:29:22 <sclv> (note that to do this, you have to "pick" if you're doing `T A` or `T B` first, which is why applicative has sequencing)
20:29:34 <ski> with `Applicative', you combine multiple ones (in a particular order, which may matter. hence it "expresses (static) sequencing")
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20:31:05 <sclv> With just functor and no applicative, ponder if you could write a function that takes two numbers input by the user, in distinct actions, and prints their result :-)
20:31:12 <ski> for a particular `T', the ordering may or may not matter. but the general "interface" `Applicative' (and similarly for `Monad') *allows* the ordering/sequencing to matter. hence they "express sequencing"
20:31:14 <sclv> er the result of their sum i guess
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20:31:44 <ski> e.g. for `Maybe', the ordering actually doesn't matter
20:32:24 <sclv> but note that even "commutative applicative" is more powerful than functor just to be clear
20:32:53 <ski> (more expressive, i'd perhaps say)
20:33:16 <sclv> fair nuff
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20:34:13 <geekosaur> now, there *is* an extension for applicative "do", but it can't do very much before it starts inferring a necessary Monad constraint to do what you asked it to do
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20:36:02 ski looks at drozdziak1
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20:40:45 <ski> (my "effect reflective syntax" does handle all of `Functor',`Applicative',`Monad' in a common framework ..)
20:42:24 <drozdziak1> Thanks for your explanations, I need to process this
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20:57:22 <texasmynsted> Is there an alternative to read that can convert String to Int. I am converting [String] -> Maybe String, using viaNonEmpty head. I want to compose that with the read.
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20:59:24 texasmynsted facepalm
20:59:34 <texasmynsted> I think I see..
20:59:44 <ski> > (runStateT . replicateM 3 . StateT) (reads :: ReadS Int) "2 3 5 7"
20:59:45 <lambdabot> [([2,3,5]," 7")]
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21:02:53 <ski> texasmynsted : `viaNonEmpty head' looks like it'd be just `listToMaybe' ?
21:03:05 <texasmynsted> yes
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21:03:17 ski doesn't see how that relates to `read'
21:03:18 <texasmynsted> from Relude I suppose
21:03:32 <texasmynsted> I have [String]
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21:03:40 <texasmynsted> I want Maybe Int
21:03:44 <ski> where did you get `[String]' from ?
21:03:52 <geekosaur> fmap?
21:04:06 <geekosaur> and listToMaybe
21:04:07 <ski> why just one `Int' (at most) ?
21:04:07 <texasmynsted> It is a sent of arguments passed into a function. I only care about the first argument in the list of strings
21:04:14 <texasmynsted> So I maybe get one String
21:04:21 <texasmynsted> Then I want to convert that string to Int
21:04:36 <texasmynsted> I should be able to fmap once I have a Maybe String
21:04:58 <ski> @type Text.Read.readMaybe <=< listToMaybe
21:05:00 <lambdabot> Read c => [String] -> Maybe c
21:05:02 <texasmynsted> I do not know how to use Read correctly to fit it into my fmap
21:05:21 <ski> (what if the reading fails ?)
21:05:31 <texasmynsted> Then Nothing
21:05:38 <ski> not try the next `String' ?
21:06:18 <texasmynsted> correct. There should be only one argument sent into the function, even though the function takes a list of String rather than a single string. I can not control that function.
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21:06:22 <ski> then what i just typed above should work, i think
21:06:34 <ski> i see
21:06:55 <ski> (you could also use `join' instead, or `(>>=)'/`(=<<)', if you prefer)
21:08:21 <ski> (note that `readMaybe <=< listToMaybe' is equal to `\ss -> readMaybe =<< listToMaybe ss' is equal to `join . fmap readMaybe . listToMaybe ss')
21:08:24 <texasmynsted> yes, I think I prefer the bind
21:08:46 texasmynsted looks up join
21:08:47 <ski> (if you're already in `do', you can `<-', of course)
21:08:51 <ski> @type join
21:08:52 <lambdabot> Monad m => m (m a) -> m a
21:09:00 <ski> join = (>>= id)
21:09:28 <ski> f =<< m = join (fmap f m)
21:09:35 <texasmynsted> where does listToMaybe live?
21:09:42 <ski> @index listToMaybe
21:09:42 <lambdabot> Data.Maybe
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21:10:36 <texasmynsted> hm
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21:11:08 <texasmynsted> how is readMaybe better than fmaping read?
21:11:42 <geekosaur> read throws an exception if the String doesn't represent a number. readMaybe returns Nothing
21:12:11 texasmynsted facepalm
21:12:14 <texasmynsted> Okay yes
21:12:18 <texasmynsted> that makes sense
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21:13:42 <ski> `read' basically only makes sense if you're sure you won't misparse, or if you don't care about aborting the program
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21:14:16 <ski> (you can catch in `IO', but imho you shouldn't reach for that, unless you really need to)
21:14:35 <texasmynsted> So now I just need to determine if I should actually use the Kleisli
21:14:57 <ski> you can catch parse failure with `reads' and `readMaybe' directly, otoh, by just checking the `Maybe' / the list
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21:15:14 <ski> why would you need `Kleisli' here ?
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21:15:47 <texasmynsted> readMaybe <=< listToMaybe
21:16:31 <texasmynsted> I think that might be the win
21:16:59 <texasmynsted> unless I am still confused
21:19:34 <texasmynsted> Thank you. :-)
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21:20:04 <ski> well, that's not using `Kleisli' (the type constructor). although i guess `(<=<)' and `(>=>)' are known as "Kleisli composition"
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21:20:24 <ij> > _1 (swap . sequence . fmap swap . uncons) $ ("ab", 123)
21:20:26 <lambdabot> (Just 'a',("b",123))
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21:20:36 <ij> I had never thought of using the (,) as lens functor
21:20:48 <ij> that is so cool and I'll actually use this
21:21:08 <texasmynsted> oh, I thought <=< and >=> were Kleisli arrows
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21:21:34 <texasmynsted> so like the Monad version of function composition
21:21:52 <geekosaur> further complicated by "Kleisli" being a newtype wrapper to turn Monads into Arrows
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21:22:11 <ski> you said "use the Kleisli", not "use the Kleisli composition(s)"
21:22:36 <texasmynsted> Heh. Okay. My apologies.
21:22:58 <ski> @type \f g -> runKleisli (Kleisli f Control.Category.. Kleisli g)
21:22:59 <lambdabot> Monad m => (b1 -> m b2) -> (a -> m b1) -> a -> m b2
21:24:09 <ski> newtype Kleisli m a b = Kleisli {runKleisli :: a -> m b} -- for your convenience
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21:33:00 <ij> it would be cool, if I could load up the working bits of half-broken files in ghci
21:33:06 <ij> or at least the type signatures, perhaps
21:33:07 <texasmynsted> hm.
21:33:43 <texasmynsted> This looks awkward. there must be a better way right? The function sig s [String] -> Maybe String
21:33:53 <texasmynsted> getReviewStars args = fmap (T.unpack . reviewStars) (readMaybe <=< listToMaybe $ args)
21:34:09 <geekosaur> ij, -fdefer-all-errors used to be a thing
21:34:12 <ski> ij : `-fdefer-type-errors' ?
21:34:22 <geekosaur> texasmynsted, the $ isn't doing anything there
21:34:46 <shinobi__> Does the Show typeclass implement print? I thought it did, but don't see it in the hackage entry
21:34:50 <geekosaur> hm, maybe it is
21:34:50 <texasmynsted> well I can't take it out.
21:34:56 <ij> geekosaur, ski, beautiful! thank you
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21:35:12 <geekosaur> :t print
21:35:14 <lambdabot> Show a => a -> IO ()
21:35:27 <texasmynsted> There should be a way to pull out args so I can Eta reduce right?
21:35:29 <ij> it's so cool, it's out of this world
21:35:31 <geekosaur> print *uses* show, it is not implemented by the Show typeclass
21:35:44 <ski> @src print
21:35:44 <lambdabot> print x = putStrLn (show x)
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21:38:33 <texasmynsted> okay this works
21:38:35 <texasmynsted> getReviewStars = fmap (T.unpack . reviewStars) . (readMaybe <=< listToMaybe)
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21:50:15 <texasmynsted> So a question of style
21:50:24 <texasmynsted> This looks overly complicated. https://gist.github.com/mmynsted/b0e512c4f5cf93992e790bc997b2cc52
21:50:40 <texasmynsted> I like that I have the sig for f in the where.
21:50:43 <ij> > ((Sum 1, ()) >>= (Sum 5,))
21:50:45 <lambdabot> (Sum {getSum = 6},())
21:50:48 <ij> whack
21:50:53 <texasmynsted> How may I make this better?
21:51:52 <ski> stop using `$' ?
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21:53:38 <texasmynsted> how does that help?
21:53:55 <ski> `$´ is ugly, so not using it makes the code better ?
21:54:07 <texasmynsted> you prefer () over $?
21:54:10 <ski> yes
21:54:16 <ij> are you really not a fan!?
21:54:34 <texasmynsted> o_O
21:54:44 <ski> i'll only consider using `$´, if the expression spans more than one line
21:54:54 <ij> I agree $ is not always the best choice, however
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21:55:10 <ski> `f x (g y)' is clearly better than `f x $ g y'
21:55:17 <ij> ski, what if you have too many parens?
21:55:33 <ski> (not to speak of the ugliness of `f x (g y $ h z)')
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21:56:11 <ski> `.' can often be used in that case
21:56:11 <texasmynsted> hm
21:56:38 <ski> `(f . g . h) x' is better than `f . g . h $ x', which can be preferable to `f (g (h x))'
21:56:43 <texasmynsted> Do you think that using () makes it easier to see when the expression can be simplified?
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21:57:27 <texasmynsted> (f . g . h) x looks the same to me as f . g . h $ x
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21:57:52 <texasmynsted> just busier
21:57:56 <ski> i don't have a problem with a few brackets
21:58:34 <texasmynsted> Is there a better way to nest functions with a signature than what I did with the where?
21:58:49 <ski> if i start to have brecketed expressions spanning multiple lines, especially if many of the closing brackets end in the same place, that's when i'll start looking for a way to refactor it to make it look nicer
21:58:57 <ski> getReviewStars = maybe "" (T.unpack . reviewStars) . (readMaybe <=< listToMaybe) -- oh, i and i forgot to mention this
21:59:13 <ski> texasmynsted : just put the signature above `f', as usual
21:59:24 <ski> getReviewStars args = ..args..f..
21:59:27 <ski> where
21:59:34 <ski> f :: [String] -> ...
21:59:36 <texasmynsted> That works?
21:59:37 <ski> f= ...
21:59:40 <ski> yes
21:59:41 texasmynsted tries that.
22:00:15 <ski> (normally preferable to putting a type ascription on the body, like you had it in your paste)
22:00:25 <texasmynsted> Wow nice!
22:00:37 <texasmynsted> that is much better
22:00:45 <ski> anyway, see how you can use `maybe' instead of `fromMaybe' as above ^
22:01:07 <ski> fromMaybe d = maybe d id
22:01:11 <ski> so
22:01:19 <ski> fromMaybe "" (f args)
22:01:28 <ski> = maybe "" id (f args)
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22:01:58 <ski> = maybe "" id ((fmap (T.unpack . reviewStars . (...)) args)
22:02:08 <ij> I abuse $ less now, but I still like it
22:02:22 <ski> = maybe "" (T.unpack . reviewStars) ((...) args)
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22:03:08 <texasmynsted> why is maybe better? When I do that I get a suggestion to change it back from hlint
22:03:11 <ski> (i used here that `maybe d f (fmap g m) = maybe d (f . g) m')
22:03:22 <ski> because you can avoid using `fmap', that way ?
22:03:47 <ij> ski, why do you put a space before the `?'?
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22:03:59 <texasmynsted> ohhh
22:04:11 <ski> ij : how i was taught it, in school
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22:04:50 <ij> huh! what country were you schooled
22:05:10 <ski> Sweden
22:05:43 <ij> fair enough
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22:07:50 <ij> I need an uncons for the first list inside – [[1]] -> Just (1, [[]])
22:08:21 <texasmynsted> wow. very nice
22:08:58 <texasmynsted> ski do you use haskell at work?
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22:11:23 <ij> "yes, in the break time"
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22:13:26 <texasmynsted> It seems it would take a long time to instill all the types for this kind of type tetris
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22:16:34 <texasmynsted> Thanks again for the help.
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22:18:47 <texasmynsted> :-) Haskell is so beautiful
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23:09:58 <itai33[m]> what is the best way to handle commandline arguments?
23:10:37 hackage pandoc 2.11.4 - Conversion between markup formats https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pandoc-2.11.4 (JohnMacFarlane)
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23:21:57 <koz_> itai33[m]: optparse-applicative is a favourite around these parts.
23:23:03 <sm[m]> or cmdargs
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23:24:36 <itai33[m]> thanks for the suggestions
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All times are in UTC on 2021-01-23.