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Logs on 2021-01-29 (freenode/#haskell)

00:00:38 <ski> the only way it could produce a result of type `o' (apart from doing things like calling `error' or `undefined', or making an infinite loop) is to actually call the callback function of type `a -> o', with some actual value of type `a' (remember `a' is not `forall'ed, it is not abstract/opaque/hidden/forgotten, is not a "skolem". e.g. `a' might be `Integer')
00:01:28 <ski> now, we could imagine the piece of code calling `k :: a -> o' multiple times, with different values of type `a' .. but we could only pick one of those applications as the result of type `o'. so, it's as if we never called `k' those other times
00:02:05 <ski> so, this is a handwavy argument for every value of type `forall o. (a -> o) -> o' actually corresponding to (containing) a single value of type `a'
00:02:11 <ski> koz_ : making sense, so far ?
00:02:34 <koz_> ski: Yeah. In the sense that 'as far as we can tell, it may as well contain a single value of type `a`', right?
00:02:46 <ski> yes
00:03:30 <koz_> That's Codensity Identity right?
00:03:36 <koz_> (well, modulo newtypes)
00:03:36 <ski> and, there's an obvious way to extract that value. given `foo :: forall o. (a -> o) -> o', pick `o' to be `a' (the caller/user/consumer is allowed to pick any type for the `forall'), and then call it with `id :: a -> a'. so `foo id :: a'
00:03:40 <ski> yes
00:04:23 <ski> `Codensity f a' is `forall o. (a -> f o) -> f o'. here, the result type `o' is abstract, so we can't do anything "funny" with that. otoh, we *can* do "funny" things with the `f' part
00:05:45 <ski> anyway, for our purposes here, i wanted to arrive at `forall o. (a -> o) -> o' being equivalent to `a' (there is also a "dual" equivalence between `exists s. (s,s -> a)' and `a', that you might like to ponder ..)
00:06:05 DarukFromHyrule hugs ski
00:06:34 <ski> (`Yoneda f' and `Coyonda f' could be said to generalize these two equivalences, in a particular way, for `f' a functor)
00:06:41 ski hugs DarukFromHyrule back
00:07:06 <ski> koz_ : now, consider `exists a. C a *> ..a..'
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00:07:34 <ski> according to this equivalence above, we should have
00:08:11 <ski> exists a. C a *> ..a..
00:08:23 <ski> = forall o. ((exists a. C a *> ..a..) -> o) -> o
00:08:31 <ski> = forall o. (forall a. (C a *> ..a..) -> o) -> o
00:08:39 <ski> = forall o. (forall a. C a => ..a.. -> o) -> o
00:08:47 <ski> and this is the CPS encoding of existentials
00:09:10 <ski> let's say you wanted to write something like
00:09:27 <koz_> ski: Final encoding amirite?
00:09:43 <koz_> I've seen this used in 'free' I think.
00:10:00 <ski> foo :: forall a. Ord a => Map String a -> Blah a -> exists b. Eq b *> Bleh a b
00:10:07 <ski> in the first encoding, you'd do
00:10:16 <ski> foo :: forall a. Ord a => Map String a -> Blah a -> SomeBleh a
00:10:19 <ski> with
00:10:39 <ski> data SomeBleh a = forall b. Eq b => WrapBleh (Bleh a b)
00:10:45 <ski> in the second encoding, you'd do
00:11:11 <ski> withFoo :: forall a o. Ord a => Map String a -> Blah a -> (forall b. Eq b => Bleh a b -> o) -> o
00:12:24 <ski> so, when you'd like to write `useBleh (foo myMap myBlah)', the first encoding would have you write `case foo myMap myBlah of WrapBleh myBleh -> useBleh myBleh', while the second would have you write `wrapFoo myMap myBlah useBleh'
00:12:50 <koz_> What're the general tradeoffs between these encodings?
00:13:07 <koz_> Like, I can see the equivalence, but there have to be some things that determine when you should use which.
00:13:07 <ski> the former encoding is typically better when you want to store the existential things in data structures. the latter is better when you want to unwrap and use directly after you've called your operation
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00:15:29 <ski> (i think "final encoding" is something different)
00:16:23 <koz_> I ask because of http://hackage.haskell.org/package/free-5.1.6/docs/Control-Alternative-Free-Final.html
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00:19:09 <ski> yes, `Alt f' there is `forall g. Alternative g => g^(f ~> g)', basically. there's some sort of CPS relation here as well, but it's not the same as the above
00:19:22 <koz_> So what is meant by a 'final encoding'?
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00:19:29 <koz_> As opposed to (I assume) an 'initial encoding'?
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00:20:02 <ski> (`g^(...)' being a "power", a categorical product where all the factors are the same, indexed by `...' here (a Hom-set))
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00:20:43 <koz_> ski: Or, in terms a Haskeller gets, it's a ... finitary dependent map or something?
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00:20:55 <koz_> Or a type-level finitary function?
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00:21:17 <dolio> It's not finitary in general.
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00:22:32 <dolio> Powers are like exponentials/function spaces where the domain isn't from the same category.
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00:22:58 <koz_> dolio: Ah, so we're taking a bunch of _differently_ typed things into the same type?
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00:24:59 <dolio> In this case, a natural transformation between functions is a set/type, not a functor, but you're using it as the exponent of a functor.
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00:25:17 <dolio> Er, the collection of natural transformations.
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00:26:51 <ski> koz_ : yea, i haven't really internalized the "final encoding" terminology. perhaps <https://peddie.github.io/encodings/encodings-text.html> could be helpful ?
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00:27:14 <koz_> ski: That is amazing, thank you!
00:27:17 <koz_> Will definitely read.
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00:31:06 <ph88> thanks for all the words ski
00:31:16 <ski> yw
00:31:28 <koz_> Yep, it was _very_ educational.
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00:32:06 <dolio> There's also dual copower or 'tensor' that is like a product with some object of another category.
00:32:28 <ski> it's like scaling multiplicatoin
00:32:31 <dolio> Which is used with left Kan extensions.
00:33:02 <dolio> And powers are sometimes called cotensors.
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01:05:29 hackage vector 0.12.2.0 - Efficient Arrays https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector-0.12.2.0 (lehins)
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01:12:51 glguy is now known as 874AAXTST
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01:13:29 874AAXTST is now known as glguy
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01:48:01 travisb_ is now known as tabemann
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01:52:17 <texasmynsted> I recall seeing an article about deploying Haskell apps using nix etc. I looked in hackage for various deployment packages...
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01:53:35 <texasmynsted> I typically create deployment scripts in bash. Does anybody here create deployment scripts using haskell?
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02:55:18 <olligobber> does this channel have a bot to send someone a message when they come back online?
02:56:49 <olligobber> oh nevermind they're online and I forgot how to spell their name
02:56:52 <olligobber> lortabac, I got it working
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02:58:40 <Guest9360> ?tell olligober Yes, lambdabot is running here
02:58:40 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
02:58:54 <Guest9360> ?messages
02:58:54 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
02:58:58 <olligobber> ?messages
02:58:58 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
02:59:06 <olligobber> lol you spelled my name wrong
02:59:17 <Guest9360> Figures. :)
02:59:28 <Guest9360> ?tell olligobber Yes, lambdabot is running here.
02:59:28 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
02:59:37 <olligobber> ?messages
02:59:42 <olligobber> ty
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03:09:12 <Axman6> Is there no way to access the Pos that gets passed around in an attoparsec Parser? it looks like exactly what I'm after but can't see a way to get it (without writing my own combinator)
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03:15:12 <Axman6> lost your voice michalja1ocko?
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03:43:22 <koz_> :t showHex
03:43:23 <lambdabot> (Integral a, Show a) => a -> ShowS
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03:43:48 <koz_> > showHex "" 10
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03:43:50 <lambdabot> error:
03:43:50 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Integral [Char]) arising from a use of ‘showHex’
03:43:50 <lambdabot> • In the expression: showHex "" 10error:
03:43:55 <koz_> > showHex 10 "foo"
03:43:57 <lambdabot> "afoo"
03:44:00 <koz_> :D
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03:44:17 <koz_> @hoogle showHex
03:44:17 <lambdabot> Numeric showHex :: (Integral a, Show a) => a -> ShowS
03:44:17 <lambdabot> BasePrelude showHex :: (Integral a, Show a) => a -> ShowS
03:44:17 <lambdabot> Number.Positional showHex :: Exponent -> T -> String
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03:45:03 <koz_> > showHex (127 :: Word8) "foo"
03:45:05 <lambdabot> "7ffoo"
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03:54:41 texasmynsted shrug
03:54:44 <texasmynsted> https://chrisdone.com/posts/shell-conduit/
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04:14:42 <Axman6> Anyone know how to get cabal-install to install tasty-discover before running its tests? I've added build-tools: tasty-discover to the test-suite definition but it either isn't installing it, or by default in CI it can't find the executable
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04:30:56 <Axman6> looks like just adding a `cabal new-install tasty-discover` might do the trick :\
04:31:43 <dolio> How does tasty-discover work? I'm not familiar with it.
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04:32:19 <dolio> Like, if it's just a program you run, how are you calling it in your test suite?
04:33:09 <SwarmCollective> Axman6, id your CI running in a container? If so, you could install it when building the container.
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04:34:12 <dolio> I'm not really familiar with how build-tools works, either, but if it installs locally to the project, you might need to `cabal exec` to get the environment set up right. Although that's pure speculation.
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04:59:37 <texasmynsted> I have a project. It has a single Haskell executable. It also has at least one helper, Haskell executable.
05:00:06 <texasmynsted> Is it common to just put the helper project in its own sub directory under the main project?
05:00:24 <texasmynsted> Will this cause any issues with cabal? (I do not expect that it would.)
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05:17:57 <SwarmCollective> texasmynsted You can specify your project layout in the cabal.project file.
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05:18:58 <SwarmCollective> You may find it easiest to have both executables in their own sub-folder and your cabal.project and other configuration (hie.yaml if using the language server, for example) in the root.
05:19:22 <SwarmCollective> Sorry, not root, parent or main folder.
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05:27:02 <texasmynsted> SwarmCollective: If I have a single myProject.cabal file, then will that make running, testing, etc more complicated?
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05:29:08 <SwarmCollective> I am not sure about that, but if you have a main folder with two sub-folders, each sub-folder with it's own application.cabal file, you can put a cabal.project (<<-- named exactly) in the main folder which will refer to the application.cabal files in the sub-folders.
05:29:49 <SwarmCollective> See also: https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-project.html
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05:38:50 <Axman6> dolio: it's run by getting ghc to run it: https://github.com/axman6/Utf8Monoid/tree/master/test/Spec.hs
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05:39:20 <dolio> Oh. Unsure about that, then.
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06:02:21 <texasmynsted> oh. Okay. Thank you. I will check that out.
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07:37:29 hackage mu-protobuf 0.4.2.0 - Protocol Buffers serialization and gRPC schema import for Mu microservices https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mu-protobuf-0.4.2.0 (AlejandroSerrano)
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07:54:40 <lortabac> olligobber: good news
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09:32:41 <sshine> I'm having problems compiling on MacOS. I suspect it isn't a Haskell problem. doing 'stack install' for a project, I get: ld: warning: ignoring file /Users/simonshine/Projects/passphrase/.stack-work/dist/x86_64-osx/Cabal-3.0.1.0/build/libHSpassphrase-0.1.0.0-JHJEnBMWseHLUYVbdxnmd4.a, building for macOS-x86_64 but attempting to link with file built for macOS-x86_64
09:33:11 <sshine> I suspect MacOS + GNU binutils is screwing with me.
09:33:43 <merijn> Why are you using GNU binutils?
09:33:56 <sshine> I, um...
09:34:48 <sshine> I guess I was actually just looking for 'coreutils', and I went a bit too far.
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09:36:25 <sshine> I've removed binutils and refreshed my shell. I still get problems with 'ar': ar: @.stack-work/dist/x86_64-osx/Cabal-3.0.1.0/build/objs-63458/ar63458-1.rsp: No such file or directory
09:36:51 <sshine> 'ar' happens to be one of those programs that binutils has another version of. but this now refers to MacOS'es own /usr/bin/ar.
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09:37:34 sshine tries to wipe all temporary directories.
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09:39:10 <ij> how much space do chars take?
09:39:23 <merijn> "It Depends"
09:39:35 <sshine> hehe
09:39:40 <sshine> I love how there are no simple answers.
09:39:46 <merijn> If you have enough to worry about the space to take, use Text
09:39:52 <sshine> ij, approximately 16 bytes, the overhead varies depending on where you put it.
09:40:01 <sshine> er, 16 bytes? 16 bits.
09:40:05 <merijn> sshine: Eh, no
09:40:10 <merijn> sshine: 16 bytes is about right
09:40:23 <ij> if it actually gets stored in the memory, that is
09:40:31 <sshine> merijn, but that accounts mostly for the overhead.
09:40:52 <ij> but Char can store utf-8, so I think 16 won't hold that necessarily
09:41:02 <merijn> sshine: Char# is a word rep
09:41:19 <merijn> sshine: So, machine word. Char itself is boxed, so 16 bytes is about right
09:41:50 <merijn> ij: "Char can store utf-8" is...about as wrong as a sentence can be in 4 words :)
09:42:03 <sshine> ij, Char is made with UTF-16.
09:42:07 <merijn> sshine: It is not
09:42:10 <sshine> >_<
09:42:17 <merijn> And that is *also* a non-sensical statement
09:42:38 <merijn> A Char is a unicode codepoint. UTF-16 is a binary encoding of sequences of unicode codepoints
09:42:46 <merijn> The two are unrelated
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09:43:09 <merijn> I repeat the simple answer: If you have enough Char values to worry about size, use Text
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09:44:04 <merijn> sshine: You are probably getting confused because Text internally stores sequence of Char as UTF-16 encoded blobs, but that doesn't say anything about the representation of Char.
09:44:28 <ij> I am mostly curious
09:44:29 <sshine> merijn, right, okay. yes, I was thinking of Data.Text's representation and assumed it generalised from Char.
09:44:31 <merijn> So the size of Text is "about 2 bytes per codepoint, plus some overhead"
09:45:18 <merijn> sshine: If that were the case you'd be hosed, because there are more than 2^16 unicode codepoints and some would be impossible to represent :p
09:45:28 <sshine> merijn, right :)
09:45:50 <sshine> merijn, I just assumed "that's what we live with until Data.Text goes UTF-8", hehe.
09:46:20 <merijn> sshine: tbh, I think the benefits of UTF-8 are rather minimal and niche
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09:46:25 <sshine> merijn, but I understand that as long as we do encoding and decoding properly, we go from Char to Text by re-encoding?
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09:46:27 <merijn> So I don't see it happening anytime soon
09:47:09 <sshine> so in GHC.Base, data Char = C# Char#. Where's Char# defined?
09:47:24 <merijn> sshine: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.1.0/docs/GHC-Exts.html#t:Char-35-
09:47:26 <sshine> (also, ij, the '#' in the type means unboxed.)
09:47:33 <merijn> So, ghc-prim
09:47:46 <merijn> But it's wired in, which means it's definition doesn't exist :p
09:47:59 <merijn> So "inside GHC"
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09:49:14 <sshine> sure, I figured there'd be a hole somewhere. so C# Char# means there's no additional overhead by the constructor of 'Char' itself, right? but Char# then has some implementation that, apparently, takes approx. 16 bytes?
09:49:16 <merijn> sshine: The main advantages of UTF-8 Text are: 1) slightly less space for ASCII text (but really, you gotta have *a lot* of text for that 1 byte to matter, and you probably wanna stream data anyway then) and 2) you don't have to copy the data from ByteString and re-encode to Text
09:49:22 <ij> I guess I should've said Char can store unicode :)
09:49:41 <kuribas> merijn: and more cache locality
09:50:00 <merijn> sshine: Except, you can't just "take the bytes out of ByteString" anyway, since you need to scan the entire input to check that it is, indeed, valid UTF-8
09:50:14 <sshine> merijn, right :)
09:50:18 <merijn> kuribas: tbh, that's probably fairly niche anyway
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09:50:33 <kuribas> merijn: it means better performance
09:50:38 <merijn> sshine: So in the grand scheme of things I don't think the average programmer will gain much more
09:50:53 <merijn> kuribas: For *some* operations that probably aren't that common anyway
09:50:53 <sshine> merijn, I don't disagree.
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09:51:19 <merijn> Given how battle-tested current Text is, I'm hesitant to promote rewrites :p
09:51:33 <sshine> kuribas, if you have a lot of variable-length code-points in UTF-8, that can affect performance?
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09:51:39 <ij> Wikipedia says UTF-16 is variable length, so it can be 32 bits then?
09:51:48 <sshine> ij, yes.
09:52:02 <merijn> ij: Like I said, on 64bit hardware Char in GHC is 16 bytes
09:52:17 <kuribas> sshine: I don't think the presense or absense of variable-length code-points makes a difference
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09:52:39 <kuribas> sshine: the code cannot assume the absense anyway.
09:52:40 <merijn> kuribas: It does if you do anything more complicated than "copy this text" :p
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09:53:20 <sshine> ij, yeah so UTF-8 needs an extension after the first 8 bytes, UTF-16 needs an extension after the first 16 bytes. so UTF-16 is neater for a lot of non-ASCII languages by default, I guess.
09:53:38 <sshine> ij, but really, those differences are at a level of abstraction that you only have to care about if you're into character encoding :)
09:54:19 <kuribas> merijn: even when you don't have variable-length code-points, the code still has to assume there may be.
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09:55:36 <sshine> kuribas, I'm thinking at the level of branch prediction when decoding the extension code-point.
09:56:27 <kuribas> sshine: the only correct answer is, "benchmark it".
09:56:38 <sshine> kuribas, hahaha, you're right.
09:56:49 <merijn> That's always the only correct answer
09:57:09 <kuribas> which applies to my cache remark as well of course...
09:57:17 <sshine> "Hey, what time is it?" - "Benchmark it." - ":("
09:57:37 <kuribas> it's time to benchmark :)
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09:58:08 <sshine> This reminds me of MySQL's utf8mb3 type, which is MySQL's way of storing UTF-8 characters in only 3 bytes. it's amazing.
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09:58:22 <merijn> sshine: ...
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09:58:32 <merijn> Why'd you have to point that out to me
09:58:50 <sshine> I'm trolling. sorry. :)
09:58:55 <merijn> This is the dumbest tech decision I've heard of since IBM inventing "ordered JSON"
09:59:42 <sshine> I think the dumbest decision was to make 'utf8' default to 'utf8mb3' and not 'utf8mb4thisliterallyhowmuchanutf8charactertakes'
09:59:51 <kuribas> MySQL has their own encoding?
10:00:00 <kuribas> non-standard one?
10:00:04 <sshine> kuribas, they were trying to save bytes by disabling a section of utf8.
10:00:10 <merijn> kuribas: That sounds on-brand
10:00:21 <sshine> kuribas, but the way they disabled it is "if you try to use it, you get garbled data"
10:00:43 <merijn> sshine: Ah, MySQL's Char8 :p
10:01:30 <sshine> you know, they really care about packing those bytes tight. I wonder if the code-points that don't work contain minority languages, then MySQL can called out for being racist.
10:02:08 <sshine> merijn, is that what you call it when you get garbled left-over codepoints in the middle of your strings? :-P
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10:02:31 <sshine> s/codepoints/bytes/
10:02:54 <merijn> oh, Char8 just drops random chunks of input instead
10:03:20 <sshine> Char0-8
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10:04:18 <sshine> ij, I guess what people like most about UTF-8 is that it's ASCII until it isn't. one thing I like about UTF-16 is that all my Chinese characters take up the same space as all my other characters. :)
10:04:34 <merijn> sshine: Well, there's other parts
10:04:48 <merijn> sshine: Like "dumb ASCII only C code doesn't break on UTF-8"
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10:05:16 <merijn> sshine: UTF-8 was intentionally designed to never have any 0 bytes anywhere except the NUL character
10:05:31 <sshine> merijn, yeah, it is very backwards-compatible.
10:05:47 <sshine> merijn, so you can open an UTF-8 file with any old tool and you'll probably make sense of it.
10:06:14 <sshine> s/an UTF-8/a UTF-8/, sorry. don't want to abuse your brain there.
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10:21:00 <sshine> was Data.Default forever deemed an anti-pattern?
10:21:21 <merijn> Was it ever *not* deemed an anti-pattern?
10:21:38 <kuribas> ugh, I want to return a polymorphic function from a monad, but the type system isn't letting me...
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10:21:57 <mniip> you'll need a datatype wrapper for it
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10:22:01 <merijn> kuribas: I feel your pain
10:22:06 <kuribas> it's just polymorphic in the phantom types
10:22:08 <mniip> and/or use continuation passing/coyoneda
10:22:16 <sshine> kuribas, RankNTypes is not enough?
10:22:24 <kuribas> sshine: no
10:22:26 <merijn> sshine: No
10:22:27 <mniip> sshine, you can't say M (forall x. F x)
10:22:34 <merijn> You can't have RankN inside a type
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10:22:47 <kuribas> M (forall x. F x -> G x)
10:22:56 <merijn> You need...what's the name of the broken extension again?
10:23:17 <mniip> impredicative
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10:24:01 <merijn> Ah, yeah, ImpredicativeTypes
10:24:02 <sshine> Moscow ML has Obj.magic : 'a -> 'b.
10:24:32 <sshine> (this is incidentally where Cthulhu lives.)
10:24:35 <merijn> I think that as of 9.0/9.2 you might actually be able to use that :p
10:24:36 <mniip> kuribas, ((forall x. F x -> G x) -> M r) -> M r
10:24:40 <mniip> should be equivalent
10:24:57 <merijn> That, or some existential
10:25:07 <kuribas> mniip: yeah, but I wanted to use the function as a nice interface.
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10:25:24 <mniip> yup that's a kleisli-flavoured church encoding of an existential
10:25:24 <merijn> kuribas: What's your function look like/how do you wanna use it?
10:25:43 <mniip> er
10:25:47 <mniip> not an existential actually
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10:25:52 <mniip> it's a universal
10:26:18 <merijn> kuribas: You can capture RankN functions inside GADTs: https://github.com/merijn/Belewitte/blob/master/benchmark-analysis/src/Pretty/Fields.hs#L39-L45
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10:26:49 <kuribas> merijn: do u <- from userTable; pure $ Person <$> col (u name) <$> col (u age)
10:27:08 <kuribas> I'll go back to what I had: do u <- from userTable; pure $ Person <$> col (u@@name) <$> col (u@@age)
10:27:09 <mniip> do NT u <- ...
10:27:15 <mniip> where newtype NT = ...
10:27:42 <kuribas> hmm...
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10:28:05 <kuribas> I just wanted to avoid the operator for joining the aliased table with the column...
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10:29:06 <kuribas> perhaps that's to much magick?
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10:32:24 <kuribas> what would be a good operator name for joining alias and column?
10:33:36 <ph88> here https://docs.haskellstack.org/en/stable/build_command/#synonyms it says that stack test is a synonym for stack build --test .. but when i run stack test it builds + executes test. How can i only build tests and not execute them ?
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10:38:08 <ph88> hum i will try this command stack build --test --no-run-tests --bench --no-run-benchmarks
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10:38:37 <ph88> is there any way to only run the tests without specifying the name of the binary ?
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10:57:00 <Athas> When running 'stack install' for my program (which needs zlib) after upgrading macOS, I now get the error "ld: library not found for -lz".
10:57:33 <Athas> I've tried fiddling with the environment variables, and plain 'gcc -lz' works. Anyone got a clue what's wrong?
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11:09:20 <kuribas> Is there a way to "hide" accessor functions?
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11:09:53 <kuribas> so MyData {field1 :: Int, field2 :: String}, field1 and field2 don't pollute the function namespace?
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11:13:58 <kuribas> I guess I want this: https://ghc-proposals.readthedocs.io/en/latest/proposals/0160-no-toplevel-field-selectors.html
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11:21:23 <dibblego> export MyData without constructors
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11:21:38 <dibblego> or, don't use records, use lens
11:21:48 <dibblego> s/constructors/fields
11:22:03 <kuribas> dibblego: I want the labels exported, not the accessor functions.
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11:36:26 <fendor> when upgrading to bytestring 0.11, are there any unexpected changes that the compiler might not catch?
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11:39:14 <kuribas> fendor: I really hope not :)
11:40:19 <fendor> kuribas, thanks :) I read that there are breaking changes and there was some fuzz around them, but wasn't sure about the actual impact
11:40:42 <kuribas> fendor: sorry, I didn't mean that as a confirmation...
11:41:03 <kuribas> fendor: more like, it would be shitty if they broke stuff that the typesystem wouldn't catch.
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11:41:23 <kuribas> but I would be surprised if they did...
11:41:32 <fendor> oh well. We have CI for a reason
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11:43:38 <kuribas> fendor: I don't see anything in the changelog that would break things silently
11:43:45 <fendor> Is bytestring-0.11 even used yet outside of release candidates?
11:44:09 <kuribas> well, it's one hackage...
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11:45:58 <kuribas> they removed deprecated modules
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11:47:22 <Taneb> They also changed the internal representation
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11:55:09 <fendor> slightly unrelated, what is the status with travis ci at the moment?
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11:55:39 <__monty__> Think you have to submit a request for foss credits. Not sure how though.
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11:57:21 <fendor> all in all less foss friendly, right?
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11:59:16 <__monty__> Going from free to "Free if you ask and we approve," definitely sounds like less not more.
12:01:02 <fendor> so, everybody switched to github actions now? At least on github?
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12:08:25 <gentauro> 11:24 < sshine> Moscow ML has Obj.magic : 'a -> 'b.
12:08:27 <gentauro> sshine: casting?
12:08:28 <gentauro> :|
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12:08:58 <gentauro> OCaml has it as well but I have never used it …
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12:28:30 hackage glpk-hs 0.8 - Comprehensive GLPK linear programming bindings https://hackage.haskell.org/package/glpk-hs-0.8 (JeanPhilippeBernardy)
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12:38:39 <__monty__> fendor: There's also circleci. They work with credits too though, not sure whether foss projects need to submit a request for more free credits there.
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12:39:36 <__monty__> GHActions hasn't really worked for me because ncurses doesn't seem to work out of the box where Actions run.
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12:39:57 <fendor_> __monty__, running 1 job at a time is pretty slow, though :(
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12:42:18 <__monty__> Travis looks like it'll be 1 job at a time too.
12:42:43 <merijn> __monty__: eh...Travis is useless
12:42:56 <merijn> __monty__: You get like 2000 minutes and that's it
12:43:07 <merijn> (that's lifetime, not monthly)
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12:43:36 <merijn> The writing for Travis has been on the wall for, like, 2 years now
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12:43:51 <merijn> Getting started there *now* is just dumb
12:44:15 <__monty__> GHActions has a bit of an inverted model where it's run against the owner of the repo's compute credits? Don't think they have (strict) job limits yet so if you don't mind the lock-in it may be your only option if you need lots of concurrent jobs.
12:44:44 <fendor_> and probably azure
12:44:46 <merijn> __monty__: The credits on GHActions are (currently, anyway) only for private repos
12:44:59 <__monty__> merijn: Like we said you can submit a request for free credits for foss with travis.
12:45:07 <merijn> __monty__: Theoretically
12:45:14 <merijn> __monty__: They stopped processing applications in November
12:45:23 <fendor_> lol
12:45:25 <merijn> Sure, the website says you can apply
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12:45:47 <merijn> But according to the stuff I've seen on open source twitter they haven't approved anyone since november
12:45:54 <merijn> Even fairly big open source projects
12:46:08 <__monty__> I'm not a fan of travis. I literally only said travis was limited to a single concurrent job like circleci is. So that shouldn't really count against circleci imo.
12:46:42 <__monty__> I know all about the acquisition of Travis. Not changing CI has just been less of an opportunity cost so far.
12:46:51 <merijn> Given the hedge fund takeover two years ago, technical staff abandoning travis, gutting of funding, utter stop of open source support you're better of not using CI, rather than Travis :p
12:46:56 <merijn> __monty__: Oh, I feel your pain
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12:47:45 <__monty__> I tried switching the project to GHActions, but like I said something's up with ncurses and tput.
12:47:48 <merijn> __monty__: I've been fiddling with phadej's Github Actions backend for haskell-ci to simplify my own migration from Travis, but I probably won't get around to much until mid-February
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12:48:54 <merijn> Life sucks ;)
12:49:22 <fendor_> so, no real nice solution for foss CI at the moment?
12:49:44 <hc> travis itself has never been free software, has it?
12:50:47 <Lycurgus> maybe bundled with gitlab oder
12:50:59 <merijn> fendor_: *for* FOSS or CI that *is* FOSS?
12:51:12 <fendor_> merijn, for now, I am fine with for FOSS
12:51:36 <merijn> fendor_: I think GHActions is probably the nicest solution
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12:52:52 <fendor_> with the danger that once we all switch to GHActions, they have somewhat a monopoly?
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12:54:20 <merijn> fendor_: On the one hand yes, on the other hand I (think I) understand the business model of github/MS
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12:54:29 <merijn> fendor_: Unlike the other free CI providers where I'm unsure
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12:55:32 <__monty__> The other ones seem to align on the "Get people invested with free credits then price them just below the opportunity cost of switching."
12:55:43 <merijn> fendor_: MS is *clearly* subsidising open source/educational use of GitHub and Actions to attract companies to GitHub Enterprise/Azure and Azure deployment/github actions integration
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12:56:12 <merijn> MS is also rich enough and big enough to eat that lossleading as "indefinite investment in PR/growth of Azure"
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12:56:42 <merijn> For the other alternatives Gitlab/Travis/etc. their only "out" into sustainable business seems to be "up the price"
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12:57:07 <merijn> So you gotta ask yourself, do I wanna be locked in with someone whose only long term option is "start charging me"
12:57:29 <Lycurgus> at some point capitalist actors have to do capitalist stuff
12:57:31 <merijn> Or do I wanna be locked in by someone who (hopefully) treats this as part of their sales funnel for their cloud/enterprise stuff
12:58:02 <merijn> *Personally* I'm betting that GitHub Actions has a larger chance of staying free for us plebs :p
12:58:18 <Lycurgus> the hypocrisy of digital capitalism supposedly moving fast and breaking things doesn't extend to the social order
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12:58:44 <merijn> fendor_: Do with that analysis what you will ;)
12:59:03 <fendor_> merijn, Thank you for the analysis :)
12:59:20 <SwarmCollective> Maybe I'm too optimistic, but it seems to me that more and more companies have realized it is in everyone's best interest to support innovation; to support start-ups.
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12:59:44 <merijn> SwarmCollective: Eh, only until you can clone/buy them :p
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13:00:16 <SwarmCollective> Or they are big enough to pay for their share of the usage.
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13:00:37 <merijn> Risky to bet you entire company on your ability to do that :p
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13:02:04 <merijn> In other news...
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13:02:52 merijn updates the "It has been X days since the stupid Monoid instance of Map has turned a simple and elegant solution into something massively awkward"-sign to 0
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13:17:01 <merijn> Is there a package for computing (simple) statistics from vectors? Just stuff like standard deviation, etc.
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13:19:51 <SwarmCollective> merijn Have you seen: https://wiki.haskell.org/Applications_and_libraries/Mathematics#Statistics
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13:22:17 <merijn> Those are all lists or matrices and most of them seem rather unmaintained
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13:41:00 hackage higgledy 0.4.1.0 - Partial types as a type constructor. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/higgledy-0.4.1.0 (i_am_tom)
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13:41:35 <SwarmCollective> Howdy puffnfresh
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13:45:25 <timCF> Once I've asked software developer "How do I deal with asynchronous exceptions in Haskell?" and he replied "Quit programming while it's not too late"
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13:47:15 <comerijn> timCF: That's the correct answer to async exceptions in *any* language
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13:48:08 <__monty__> Figuring whether it's already too late is a similarly hard problem though, timezones are impossible.
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13:52:21 <timCF> comerijn: in Erlang it's quite straightforward, but there are other issues like abscense of types and classes
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13:53:21 <comerijn> timCF: Eh, it's not straightforward in Erlang either :p
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13:53:38 <comerijn> You just crash the process and rely on the OTP stuff to recover using other processes :p
13:54:12 <comerijn> And if that's all you need, you can get quite far in Haskell, although you'll have to reinvent/reimplement a bunch of the primitive operations
13:54:23 <comerijn> *recovering* from async exceptions is what's utterly cursed
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13:56:57 <timCF> comerijn: complete true, especially in cases where library you are using is too smart and making process unkillable for `Async.cancel` or `Async.withAsync`
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14:06:19 <__monty__> fendor_: Oh, circle has 4 concurrent linux jobs for foss.
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14:08:23 <fendor_> __monty__, and monthly 400,000 credits, that is actually a lot. But only linux machines, afaict
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14:09:01 <__monty__> Yeah, you can get 1 concurrent macOS job but you have to contact support.
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14:11:59 <fendor_> guess GHActions are truly the best option at the moment
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14:23:39 <fendor> @where manual
14:23:39 <lambdabot> I know nothing about manual.
14:23:42 <fendor> @where ghc-manual
14:23:42 <lambdabot> I know nothing about ghc-manual.
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14:24:13 <geekosaur> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/index.html
14:25:16 <fendor> geekosaur, thanks! I never remember the lambdabot command for it
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14:26:59 hackage morley 1.12.0 - Developer tools for the Michelson Language https://hackage.haskell.org/package/morley-1.12.0 (pasqu4le)
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14:30:33 <timCF> I need some advice about async and cancellation. Is `bracket` really uncancellable from the outside? In case where I have for example `async (bracket x y z) >>= cancel` will cancel actually work? It feels like not (from deadlocks in my source code).
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14:32:59 hackage lorentz 0.9.1 - EDSL for the Michelson Language https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lorentz-0.9.1 (pasqu4le)
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14:39:26 <comerijn> timCF: hmm?
14:39:33 <comerijn> What makes you say bracket is uncancellable?
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14:40:25 <comerijn> timCF: Which bracket are you using? What are x/y/z? etc.
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14:45:06 <timCF> comerijn: I'm using this function from gRPC library https://github.com/awakesecurity/gRPC-haskell/blob/6382857e2cb3495c9ddcac0c86809b3f1a7b0990/src/Network/GRPC/HighLevel/Generated.hs#L101 which is basically composition of 2 brackets like this https://github.com/awakesecurity/gRPC-haskell/blob/d8f6e0b476797938f5c759146a2bbdc829ba1a84/core/src/Network/GRPC/LowLevel/Client.hs#L124-L127 And looks like, if I
14:45:12 <timCF> spawn long gRPC subscription with `async`, and at some point want to `cancel` it - it's not working really, cancel function is locked until subscription itself (composition of 2 brackets) terminates
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14:45:51 <comerijn> timCF: bracket blocks async exceptions during the "acquire" and "release" only
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14:46:59 <comerijn> If you can't cancel something during the actual work part, then that means the library you're using is fucking up
14:47:15 <comerijn> By either masking exceptions or having a catch in there that catches everything
14:49:18 <timCF> comerijn: Well, it might be true. I guess there is no chioce except diving onto the code. Thanks!
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15:02:57 <maerwald> "blocks async"?
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15:06:33 <comerijn> maerwald: Exceptions
15:06:48 <maerwald> you mean mask?
15:06:57 <comerijn> yes
15:07:39 <maerwald> afaiu, when masked, they can still happen, but only at predefined points (such as a blocking mvar)
15:07:46 <comerijn> maerwald: Yes
15:08:26 <comerijn> The key point I was making was that they are *not* blocked during the "work" part of bracket
15:08:35 <comerijn> Unless the code you're running is doing that itself
15:08:58 <maerwald> right
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15:09:48 <timCF> Basically I want to look for `mask` and `catch` functions in library source code to confirm my theory?
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15:10:15 <comerijn> anything that catches
15:10:20 <comerijn> Which includes try, etc.
15:10:33 <comerijn> timCF: Probably easier to grep for SomeException
15:10:50 <comerijn> timCF: Because that's the most common way people catch everything
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15:11:39 <timCF> Thanks!
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15:18:29 hackage linear 1.21.4 - Linear Algebra https://hackage.haskell.org/package/linear-1.21.4 (ryanglscott)
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15:26:01 <whataday> why some people say monad solved the callback hell?
15:27:46 <ski> perhaps they have something like one of the examples at "Escaping Hell with Monads" by Philip Nilsson in 2017-05-08 at <https://philipnilsson.github.io/Badness10k/escaping-hell-with-monads/> in mind ?
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15:31:00 <ski> @hackage managed -- may be interesting to compare with
15:31:00 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/managed -- may be interesting to compare with
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15:31:37 <whataday> that's cool, but other languages don't have do-notation...
15:31:44 <SwarmCollective> ski, thanks for the Escaping Hell with Monads reference. Looks interesting.
15:32:10 <whataday> is there a more in general meaning?
15:32:11 <comerijn> whataday: tbh, monads are useless in 90% of other languages anyway
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15:32:53 <comerijn> The monad abstraction is useful in haskell because the language lets you easily work with abstractions like that. As soon as you lose stuff like typeclasses it becomes 100x less useful
15:33:24 <whataday> what about kotlin, could we use those stuff in kotlin?
15:33:35 <whataday> they have arrow-kt
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15:34:56 <ski> (Clean and Mercury has type classes)
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15:35:53 <ski> whataday : well, some other languages have composable continuations ..
15:36:32 <ski> (.. and you can use composable continuations to "reflect" a user-defined monad so that it appears as a primitive side-effect in the language)
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15:37:15 ski 's no idea about Kotlin ..
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15:39:03 <MrMuffles[m]> <comerijn "The monad abstraction is useful "> Less typeclasses and more higher kinded types right?
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15:39:37 <comerijn> MrMuffles[m]: Well, both
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15:39:59 <comerijn> MrMuffles[m]: If you have higher kinded types you still can't write "monad polymorphic" code without typeclasses
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15:40:32 <comerijn> So something as generic as monad-loops is still impossible
15:40:39 <ski> you could pass explicit dictionaries ..
15:41:06 <MrMuffles[m]> Ya makes sense. But many languages do have typeclasses. And I can only dream of the day that rust gets hkt
15:41:21 <Uniaika> one day, comrades
15:41:30 ski never understood why people use the term "higher-kinded types"
15:41:57 <comerijn> ski: Why?
15:42:14 <MrMuffles[m]> It's like a type that takes types as arguments and constructs types
15:42:20 <ski> it seems to me that they simply mean higher-order types .. or am i mistaken ?
15:42:45 <ski> why the strange custom terminology ?
15:43:11 <comerijn> ski: Define "higher-order types", then?
15:43:12 <ski> we don't say "higher-typed values" for things like `map',`interact'
15:43:23 <comerijn> Seems to me "Maybe" can be considered a "higher-order" type
15:43:32 <comerijn> Since it's a type that takes a type as argument
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15:43:52 <comerijn> ski: They're higher kinded, because they are types whose argument has a kind higher than *
15:44:22 <ski> my understanding was that people use that term, when type variables, as bound by either `forall's, or being parameters of defined types, can themselves be type functions
15:44:27 <dolio> I think it's pretty safe to presume that Kotlin doesn't have delimited continuations. :)
15:44:27 <comerijn> Maybe is not higher-kinded, all transformers are, the Functor/Applicative/Monad typeclasses are
15:44:46 <ski> right. so that's just "higher-order"
15:44:56 <comerijn> ski: How so?
15:45:05 <ski> in the same sense that `fix' is higher-order, but `fst' is not
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15:45:35 <ski> the type of `fix' has a function type as an argument type. the type of `fst' doesn't
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15:46:15 <SwarmCollective> ski, are you using "order" in the same way it is used in "an order of magnitude"?
15:46:24 <ski> so `fst', or `ord' if you prefer a monomorphic one, is comparable to `Maybe' here, neither being higher-order. while `fix' is comparable to e.g. `MaybeT'
15:47:16 <ski> SwarmCollective : i'm using "order" in sense of "first-order function","second-order function","third-order function",&c.
15:47:30 <ski> (zeroth-order would be non-functions)
15:47:32 <dolio> First order is too boring to be higher order, even though it has zeroth order below it.
15:47:35 <SwarmCollective> ski, thank you for the clarification.
15:47:48 <ski> and yes, "higher" would be having an order that's at least two
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15:49:25 <ski> for Haskell, we could define `Order (sigma -> tau) = max (1 + Order sigma) (Order tau)', and `Order tau = 0' for non-function types `tau'
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15:49:56 <ski> (although, it may be good to e.g. define order of `Maybe tau',`[tau]',&c. to be the same as the order of `tau')
15:50:15 <MrMuffles[m]> <comerijn "Maybe is not higher-kinded, all "> What makes functor higher kinded?
15:50:30 <comerijn> % :k Functor
15:50:30 <yahb> comerijn: (* -> *) -> Constraint
15:50:50 <comerijn> That ;)
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15:54:47 <ski> dolio : heh, only read that about Kotlin, afterwards
15:55:23 <ski> MrMuffles[m] : anyway, particular instances of `Functor' are not higher-order, but `Functor' itself is
15:55:34 <MrMuffles[m]> Whoa. Didnt realize typeclasses have kinds. Can someone explain that kind in English?
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15:56:06 <ski> MrMuffles[m] : given a type function from concrete types to concrete types, give back a constraint
15:56:39 <ski> the kind of e.g. `Eq Ordering' is `Constraint'. what is to the left of the `=>' arrow has to have this kind
15:57:10 <ski> @kind MonadReader
15:57:11 <lambdabot> * -> (* -> *) -> Constraint
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15:57:21 <ski> @kind Reader
15:57:22 <lambdabot> * -> * -> *
15:57:23 <ski> @kind ReaderT
15:57:24 <lambdabot> * -> (* -> *) -> * -> *
15:57:49 <ski> `MonadReader' is a Multi-Parameter Type Class (MPTC for short)
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15:58:59 <ski> iow, it behaves like a (binary) relation between types (of the requisite kind), rather than as a predicate/property of single types
15:59:58 <ski> perhaps, in some code, you'd have an instance `MonadReader MyConfig MyMonad'
16:00:49 <ski> (although, it may be more likely that you'd not expose your custom monad as being an instance of `MonadReader', but rather exposing some specific interface having to do with your particular application domain)
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16:01:22 <texasmynsted> I have a project, e.g. myproject. The sources are stored in src. It has a myproject.cabal. A cabal.project.local was automatically generated.
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16:01:42 <MrMuffles[m]> Ok I think this makes sense
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16:03:33 <texasmynsted> I have read about "cabal.project" here https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-project.html
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16:06:07 <texasmynsted> I am guessing that if I move all this to its own directory say "base" or something, then create a new directory, such as "support" then I could have a supporting haskell executable in support with its own cabal, etc.
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16:06:27 <texasmynsted> I am unclear what that would do to the relationship between the packages, naming, etc.
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16:07:32 <texasmynsted> Does anybody have or have a link to an example project using cabal.project with more than one executable? I think it is possible to add another executable to the same myproject.cabal
16:07:47 <texasmynsted> maybe that makes more sense?
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16:08:30 <SwarmCollective> texasmynsted, I believe you could do that, but I would recommend leaving the main src in the src folder. You can also have a support folder (or many). The project.cabal file can list other modules and the hs-source-dirs: references all the locations where source code might be found.
16:08:47 <__monty__> texasmynsted: You can have multiple *components*, exes, testsuites, in a cabal file. Only one public library component though.
16:09:06 <comerijn> texasmynsted: cabal.project.local gets created if you run "cabal configure"
16:09:15 <SwarmCollective> A great example of a multi module project is: https://github.com/lambdabot
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16:09:54 <texasmynsted> In this example. What exists in src are all the modules needed for the project executable. The other executable would simply be a Haskell "deployment" executable.
16:10:08 <comerijn> texasmynsted: You can have multiple executable in one cabal file, so not sure what exactly the question is?
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16:11:03 <texasmynsted> I want to implement the simplest way to add a supporting executable to a project.
16:11:33 <texasmynsted> even after reading about cabal.project I am unclear how it would help me.
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16:12:05 <SwarmCollective> Ah, then what comerijn said is what you are looking for: declare multiple executables in the single project.cabal file.
16:12:06 <texasmynsted> oh lambdabot is a good example.
16:12:08 <comerijn> texasmynsted: I don't understand what the relevance of cabal.project is to your question?
16:12:16 <texasmynsted> heh
16:12:29 <texasmynsted> Because that was the advice I got yesterday
16:13:01 <comerijn> texasmynsted: You can have 0-n executables defined in the same cabal file, see: https://github.com/merijn/Belewitte/blob/master/benchmark-analysis/benchmark-analysis.cabal#L242-L327
16:13:09 <texasmynsted> I guess I will try to declare multiple execs in a single project.cabal. Maybe with its own src direct
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16:13:26 <__monty__> texasmynsted: Is this a bespoke binary for your project or just a tool?
16:13:40 <comerijn> texasmynsted: cabal.project is useful for coordinating multiple *packages* together, but that's usually just when you have multiple *libraries*
16:13:50 <texasmynsted> just a tool. I do not know what bespoke is
16:13:58 <comerijn> texasmynsted: "custom made" :)
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16:14:09 <SwarmCollective> I fully admit that I tend to believe projects may start small, but will always expand in scope, so I go for solutions that support that expansion. Adding the constraint "most simple" often changes the answer.
16:14:32 <texasmynsted> I am just going to write my deployment "script" as a haskell exec rather than in shell or something.
16:14:35 <__monty__> texasmynsted: If it's just a tool then maybe it doesn't belong in the cabal file at all? Like you wouldn't put git in the cabal file.
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16:14:53 <__monty__> Ah, so something specific to the project, aka, not just a tool : )
16:14:59 <texasmynsted> correct
16:15:48 <texasmynsted> It will read the same template type files as the main executable.
16:16:06 <texasmynsted> Okay, sounds like multiple execs in a single cabal file then.
16:16:22 <robbert-vdh> Is there any way to figure out where a pattern synonym (with a view pattern) was used from? It doesn't show up in the call stack when using HasCallStack, but the view pattern function does show up as being called from within the pattern synonym so the original function is kind of lost there.
16:16:39 <ephemient> depends on what's in the executables, but if the're just a single .hs file you don't need a separate source directory for each
16:16:47 <comerijn> texasmynsted: basically, a cabal *package* consists of 0-1 public libraries, 0-n internal libraries, and/or 0-n executables. cabal.project is mostly for coordinating multiple *packages* during development. Consider when you maintain libraries foo and bar where "foo" depends on "bar", during development you may end up needing to depend on an unreleased version of "bar"
16:17:00 <ephemient> just specify main-is: accordingly
16:17:11 <texasmynsted> oh okay
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16:17:46 <sclv> the typical pattern for multiple execs is to have each one have a different source directory
16:17:50 <texasmynsted> So maybe if I had a custom package I built locally and needed to pull it into a new package I was working on...
16:17:57 <comerijn> texasmynsted: Right
16:17:58 <Tian_> hi
16:18:04 <comerijn> texasmynsted: Then you'd want cabal.project
16:18:09 <texasmynsted> okay
16:18:12 <texasmynsted> that makes sense
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16:18:41 <comerijn> texasmynsted: Or when building against (unreleased) git branches, like: https://github.com/merijn/Belewitte/blob/master/cabal.project.ghc-8.10#L8-L12
16:18:55 <sclv> (then they each can import the library defined in the cabal file rather than building it, which is what they'd do if they shared a source dir)
16:18:59 <texasmynsted> so sounds like I just need to make a another couple of directories. One for the primary app's src and one for the deployment src directories
16:19:40 <texasmynsted> :-) Thank you all
16:20:59 <ski> hello Tian_
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16:26:59 <edrx> hi ski! I've put a "Thx to ski @ #haskell" here: http://angg.twu.net/LATEX/2021excuse.pdf#page=9 =)
16:27:15 <ski> oh
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16:52:49 <cohn> nice. :D
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16:54:57 <monochrom> I think the false dichotomy of "it must be only text and formuals" and "it must be only diagrams" is unhealthy.
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16:56:25 <robbert-vdh> Anyone who can help me with those call stacks in pattern synonyms?
16:57:04 <monochrom> What I do is to use text/formulas to clarify the forall and exist quantifiers, and use both formula (eg "fmap f . g = f . fmap g") and diagrams for commuting statements+diagrams
16:59:14 <monochrom> For example I would write "forall <diagram here for having f:I->A, g:I->B>, there exists unique <the pushout diagram>"
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17:00:29 <monochrom> And I would still include the commutating equation in addition to the commuting diagram, because it is already known that some theorems are easier to prove by chasing equations instead of chasing diagrams.
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17:01:45 <SwarmCollective> robbert-vdh, I'm not familiar with this. Do you have a sample that would showcase what you are experiencing?
17:01:47 <dolio> I'm not sure chasing diagrams is ever that good. :)
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17:09:59 <dolio> At least, not the arrow ones. That's why CT people like string diagrams, I think.
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17:11:11 <frdg> Does STM largely make plain MVars and regular channels irrelevant?
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17:12:25 <geekosaur> STM has its own problems, notably that it's a fairly naïve implementation that suffers from (among others) "thundering herd" problems
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17:12:58 <comerijn> frdg: Short answer: No
17:13:16 <comerijn> frdg: Longer answer: Absolutely, definitively no :p
17:13:32 <comerijn> geekosaur: Well, I wouldn't say "naive"
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17:13:44 <comerijn> I'd say "optimised for certain usecases at the cost of others"
17:14:20 <frdg> Ok I see. I find MVars and locks and race conditions very difficult especially when it comes to async exceptions. STM is way more straight forward.
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17:14:44 <comerijn> frdg: Basically, MVars guarantee fairness and single wakeup
17:14:58 <frdg> While STM guarantees no deadlocks right
17:15:16 <comerijn> frdg: So if N threads are waiting on 1 MVar only 1 thread will be woken up on a write. And all N threads will read something before a thread reads a second elements
17:15:39 <comerijn> frdg: Pretty sure STM can't guarantee "no deadlocks"
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17:16:13 <comerijn> frdg: STM just guarantees "you can do compound updates atomically without having to manually do locking" (reducing the chance of you messing up and deadlocking)
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17:16:34 <frdg> Ok I understand
17:16:48 <comerijn> frdg: The STM implementation scales best with small transactions and low concurrency (in the sense of threads accessing the same variable)
17:17:09 <comerijn> The tinier and more fine-grained you can make your transactions, the cheaper
17:17:28 <comerijn> frdg: I highly recommend readin the STM paper referenced in the stm docs, btw
17:17:34 <frdg> Ok fortunately that is what my project will be doing
17:17:42 <frdg> Yes I have that paper downloaded
17:18:08 <comerijn> frdg: Once you understand the (high-level) idea of how STM locking/retries work, you can make better decisions about cost
17:20:05 <robbert-vdh> SwarmCollective: Sorry it took a bit to come up with a minimal example that still sort of makes sense: https://gist.github.com/robbert-vdh/972c600e381b68e8d56ad7495d04e5b1
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17:21:13 <robbert-vdh> Basically, I need to trace the use of the pattern synonym down to someAnnotatedValue so I can add that to some language's AST and later use of for diagnostics
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17:42:22 <SwarmCollective> robbert-vdh to verify, you see this output: No lines from within 'someAnnotatedValue' show up here:
17:42:24 <SwarmCollective> CallStack (from HasCallStack):
17:42:26 <SwarmCollective> addCallStack, called at test.hs:12:24 in main:Main
17:42:28 <SwarmCollective> someAnnotatedValue, called at test.hs:27:22 in main:Main
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17:42:52 <robbert-vdh> SwarmCollective: Yes
17:43:50 <SwarmCollective> And you are hoping to see something from the pattern Annotate?
17:44:04 <robbert-vdh> The call to someAnnotatedValue is there, and the call to addCallStack is there, but the call site where the Annotate pattern synonym was used in someAnnotatedValue is not part of the call stack
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17:44:28 <robbert-vdh> I'm looking for some way to trace the use of this pattern synonym down to its soruce location in someAnnotatedValue
17:44:40 <robbert-vdh> Because that kind of gets skipped over now
17:45:31 <SwarmCollective> I see. It appears as though it applies the pattern inline; the pattern expansion happens at the point of use, not as a separate named function.
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17:45:58 <SwarmCollective> Which is efficient and clever, but prevents your use case.
17:46:01 <robbert-vdh> Yeah if it was fully inlined then that would be fine
17:46:23 <robbert-vdh> But sadly the call to `addCallStack` shows up as test.hs:12:24, which is from within the pattern synonym's definition
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17:47:04 <robbert-vdh> So call stack does not contain any lines within someAnnotatedValue, which is what I'm interested in :\
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18:21:38 <SwarmCollective> robbert-vdh unless there's some way to sneak a call to pushCallStack in there, I do not see a way to do it.
18:22:20 <SwarmCollective> It is a function of the call stack referencing the actual location the method was called, regardless of the line of code that triggered the sequence.
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18:25:46 <robbert-vdh> SwarmCollective: Yeah if use pattern synonym showed up in the call stack that would be great (in that case I'd just use withFrozenCallstack to make sure that that function called in the view pattern doesn't add its own call frame). But I guess GHC call stacks + pattern synonyms + view patterns is such a rare combination that noone has considered it. And manually pushing things to the call stack
18:25:48 <robbert-vdh> before usinig the pattern synonym isn't an option because it has to be transparent to the user
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18:26:40 <SwarmCollective> Right, no way to use pushCallStack in the pattern, that I can tell.
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18:29:38 <monochrom> merijn: BTW, I think the more common term is "low contention" when you want to say that relatively few threads are accessing the same shared variable.
18:30:20 <merijn> ah, yeah
18:30:25 <merijn> Words are hard!
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18:31:00 <merijn> Entirely unrelated question: Is there, like, a "normalised standard deviation"?
18:31:57 <merijn> Like, if I wanna compare "how spread out" the values in two samples are, but those samples aren't in the same range
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18:32:32 <monochrom> I think you just compare the two standard deviations.
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18:33:16 <monochrom> They aren't in the same range --> that's already reflected in having different means.
18:33:27 <merijn> monochrom: But that doesn't work, I think?
18:33:51 <monochrom> They are samples ---> OK, technically, use sample deviation, but otherwise you can just compare.
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18:34:14 <geekosaur> hm. not if they're not linear, I guess
18:34:23 <merijn> Maybe sample is the right word
18:34:26 <geekosaur> but then neither does stddev at all in that case
18:34:45 <merijn> geekosaur: Yeah, I'm pretty sure I *don't* want the standard deviation
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18:36:47 <merijn> Ah, my normalisation question isn't stupid!
18:37:07 <merijn> https://www.vosesoftware.com/riskwiki/Normalizedmeasuresofspread-theCofV.php
18:37:31 <merijn> This seems to cover what I mean/want *and* that seems fairly straightforward to compute
18:37:48 <monochrom> Ah, I see. Yeah.
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18:39:02 <merijn> Right
18:39:46 <merijn> If I compare, say [0..10] and "map (2*) [0..10]" the std deviation of the latter is basically 2 time bigger, but the normalised one is the same (roughly, anyway)
18:40:00 <merijn> Which is the kinda thing I'm after
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18:40:52 <monochrom> I guess I missed the scenerio of: laptop prices vary from 500-1500, "that's pretty wide", car prices vary from 9500-10500, "that's pretty narrow", because look at percentages instead.
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18:41:20 texasmynsted facepalm
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18:41:31 <texasmynsted> So many stream libraries
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18:42:16 <merijn> texasmynsted: Conduit seems to have the best/widest support in terms of other languages, so I tend to default to that :p
18:43:02 <merijn> monochrom: Yeah, I'm in the scenario of "I have run N algorithms across M datasets, how do I identify datasets that show interesting behaviour"
18:43:19 <merijn> monochrom: And "smallest/biggest spread" seemed like an obvious metric :p
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18:44:00 <texasmynsted> I was looking at shell-conduit... Builds on conuit obviously but then there are so many other option heh.
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18:46:11 <texasmynsted> what if I do not care about other language support?
18:46:41 <merijn> texasmynsted: I'd still pick conduit, just because I already know it :p
18:46:59 <texasmynsted> Well that is a good reason for you
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18:47:33 <merijn> texasmynsted: Well, given my earlier comment on most support, it seems like an obvious one to learn, since it has the biggest likelihood of being relevant :p
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18:47:51 <merijn> I mean, you can spend another 3 hours agonising over the optimal streaming library choice...
18:47:55 <texasmynsted> hm that is also a good reason
18:48:01 <merijn> But that seems like a poor way to spend your time
18:48:02 <texasmynsted> oh I wil.
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18:48:10 <texasmynsted> story of my life
18:48:28 <texasmynsted> like why not streamly or pipes?
18:48:51 <merijn> pipes is conceptually elegant, but in my experience a massive pain to use for practical things
18:49:08 <texasmynsted> okay. Fair enough. pipes is out
18:49:31 <merijn> streamly has a module/API size practically bigger than base, which should frankly be illegal
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18:49:46 <monochrom> conduit is not entirely an arbitrary choice because there are http-conduit, cryponite-conduit, xml-conduit, binary-conduit, this-conduit, that-conduit... you know that you will be enjoying very good networking effect if you choose conduit.
18:49:47 <texasmynsted> lol
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18:50:12 <merijn> monochrom: Yeah, that was my first comment :p
18:50:21 <SwarmCollective> I've been using http-conduit and xml-conduit. Found them to be quite useful and easy to use.
18:50:32 <texasmynsted> I am trying to recall... I think there was a replacement for shell-conuit
18:50:33 <merijn> Not to mention that xml/html conduit are pretty decent for schemaless scraping stuff
18:50:41 <monochrom> Well, as usual, words are hard, I think we didn't understand "other languages".
18:51:00 <texasmynsted> what was meant by other languages?
18:51:28 <monochrom> http, xml, binary, cryptonite, this, that
18:51:34 <texasmynsted> oh
18:51:47 <monochrom> To be sure I wouldn't call them languages.
18:52:11 <merijn> I think I meant "language support"/"ecosystem support"
18:52:33 <monochrom> But my weakness is that I'm a formalist, ultra formalist, I don't even believe that semantics exists, it's all pushing symbols, hence everything is a language.
18:52:47 <SwarmCollective> Dialect support?
18:52:49 <texasmynsted> Okay. I am fairly convinced
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18:53:55 <monochrom> Hell, you know how Turing-based computability and complexity courses express decision problems as languages too :)
18:54:02 <texasmynsted> I want to write a shell-script type app using haskell (yes I know why it is a bad idea). What alternative should I consider to "shell-conduit" ?
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18:57:25 <merijn> monochrom: My weakness is that I'm too tired to use words :p
18:57:46 <monochrom> We could all use a USB port right into our brains.
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18:58:17 geekosaur thinks about the security implications and shudders a bit
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18:59:31 <dolio> monochrom: I hate that. :þ
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18:59:36 <pjb> monochrom: https://neuralink.com
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19:00:44 <timCF> Hey guys! Any stack users there? How do I recompile some dependencies of my project after I changed some dependency related flags?
19:00:56 <merijn> This is all just going to lead to a Butlerian Jihad and Frank Herbert being hailed as a prophet :p
19:01:26 <merijn> timCF: I recommend stabbing maintainers of upstream dependencies until the stop using flags for features
19:01:27 <timCF> Seems like `stack build` can not detect dependency flags changes automatically
19:01:49 <merijn> A controversial recommendation, but ultimately the sanest one :p
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19:03:27 <monochrom> Would a scorched-earth policy work? Erase stack's caches to force it to rebuid everything? Go jot outside to pass the time?
19:03:36 <monochrom> err, s/jot/job/
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19:03:40 <monochrom> err, s/job/jog/
19:03:43 <dolio> monochrom: It's responsible for all sorts of weird questions on CS stack exchange, because we teach everyone to be obsessed with things like Chomsky hierarchies.
19:03:52 <dolio> Where is lambda calculus on the Chomsky hierarchy?
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19:04:31 <timCF> Well, for debug using CPP macro which is dependent on package flag seems common, but not beautiful
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19:17:05 <pjb> dolio: above.
19:17:56 <merijn> Bang patterns in where blocks, does that work?
19:17:56 <pjb> dolio: well, not exactly. lambda calculus is equivalent to turing machines, so it can parse languages of Type 0.
19:18:03 <pjb> dolio: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chomsky_hierarchy#Type-3_grammars
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19:21:08 <monochrom> Yes merijn.
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19:38:01 <dolio> pjb: I think it probably depends what about the lambda calculus you're talking about.
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19:40:34 <sm[m]> timCF: can you give a small example ? I would expect it to rebuild on flag change
19:40:58 <merijn> sm[m]: It's software, time to lower your expectations ;)
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19:42:39 <pjb> dolio: well, if you only talk about parts of the lambda calculus, then it's not the lambda calculus anymore. Do I talk about Turing Machines, but without the state transition table?
19:43:20 <itai> :q
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19:43:37 <ski> :r
19:44:54 <pjb> itai: irc commands start with a / ; Try: /help
19:45:40 <SwarmCollective> robbert-vdh or anyone, are pattern synonyms intended to be an alternative to template haskell? If not, what is the significant difference? (what should I research to better understand)
19:46:06 <geekosaur> uh? that seems like an odd question
19:46:40 <ski> they're intended to be able to abstract over patterns
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19:47:03 <itai> pjb: right sorry i'm trying out the circe on emacs and haven't gotten the hang of it yet, thanks for the tip though
19:47:24 ski idly ponders hygiene of pattern synonyms
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19:47:24 <robbert-vdh> SwarmCollective: They do very different things. In the real-world equivalent of the example I sent we're basically using them as an alternative to smart constructors. Where smart constructors can only, well, construct things, pattern synonyms combined with view patterns can also destruct things
19:47:31 <geekosaur> pattern synonyms are a solution to, for example, the situation with Data.Map where you can't pattern match or use a constructor directly without breaking invariants, so the pattern synonym lets you write code to safely do so
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19:47:59 <ski> itai : it looked like you wanted to quit the interactor, but directed the command into the wrong windoe
19:48:30 <itai> yep that is probably what happened
19:48:35 <itai> emacs is fun
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19:48:44 <ski> doesn't necessarily have to be combined with view patterns
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19:49:45 <robbert-vdh> But yeah, I guess I'll have to open a GHC bug report/feature request for this.My use case of pattern synonyms + call stacks was probably not something that has been considered when they were implemented
19:50:27 <itai> :q
19:50:49 <geekosaur> whoops again?
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19:52:23 <robbert-vdh> ski: That's true of course! In the project I'm working on they're used as a sort of 'smart deconstructor' that you would not be able to write as a pattern directly
19:52:23 <ski> :t itai
19:52:24 <lambdabot> Itai
19:53:27 <itai> yeah sorry for bugging yall with my mistypes
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19:54:38 <ski> no worry
19:55:08 <SwarmCollective> Surely a naive view, but it seems that Template Haskell, Pattern Synonyms, and Monads, in their own ways abstract computation. Though I understand that TH is a pre-compile macro-expansion mechanism.
19:55:27 <ski> those three all seem to be very different beasts
19:55:53 <ski> (unclear how you'd even compare them)
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19:56:09 <geekosaur> there are many different notions of "abstract"
19:56:32 <geekosaur> not always comparable, as ski noted
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19:57:32 <ski> SwarmCollective : more or less, pattern synonyms are to patterns what functions are to expressions
19:58:02 <ski> (perhaps i should say "named functions", or "named operations")
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19:59:46 <ski> calling a function on some parameter expressions, you form a larger expression (a function call), that will expand to the expression body of the function, with the actual parameter expressions substituted for the formal parameters
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20:00:42 <ski> calling a pattern synonym on some patterns, you form a larger pattern (a "synonym pattern"), that will expand to the pattern body of the synonym, with the actual parameter patterns substituted for the formal parameters
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20:02:08 <ski> (.. this suggests an extension to `PatternSynonyms')
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20:13:19 <SwarmCollective> ski, thank you for that. Gives me a direction to go with research.
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20:14:14 <monochrom> "computation" is vague in the first place.
20:14:35 <monochrom> Not to mention that some people simply alias "computation" with "code".
20:15:17 <ski> yes and yes
20:15:30 <ski> SwarmCollective : ooc, research about what ?
20:15:37 <ephemient> pattern synonyms ≅ view patterns, TH has significantly different powers
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20:16:00 <ski> sortof
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20:17:26 <ski> in Mercury, "pattern synonyms" are just "reverse" calling modes of functions. e.g. you can have a pattern `[2,3,5,7] ++ Ns' that matches `Ns' to the appropriate suffix of the input list, assuming the prefix matches
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20:18:08 <ski> (so here, the left operand of `++' would be input, the right operand would be output, and the "result" would also be input (the value we're matching on))
20:18:09 <ephemient> I mean, they're just patterns. in containers, :|> = viewr. they can't do anything other patterns can't
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20:18:55 <ski> view patterns can do more than pattern synonyms can, in the absense of the former
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20:42:43 <exarkun> Anyone have a persistent scalable bloom filter package?
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20:45:09 <exarkun> Oh, I see you can get a ... STUArray ... out of https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bloomfilter-2.0.1.0/docs/Data-BloomFilter-Mutable.html ... that just leaves the scalable part
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21:12:59 hackage slack-web 0.2.0.12 - Bindings for the Slack web API https://hackage.haskell.org/package/slack-web-0.2.0.12 (jpvillaisaza)
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21:13:59 hackage slack-web 0.2.1.0 - Bindings for the Slack web API https://hackage.haskell.org/package/slack-web-0.2.1.0 (jpvillaisaza)
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21:26:26 <dolio> pjb: I mean, for example, recognizing well-scoped lambda terms is not Turing-complete.
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21:28:24 <dolio> It's a much easier problem than recognizing normalizing lambda terms.
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21:37:14 <pjb> dolio: of course, recognizing well-scoped (ie. terminating) Turing Machines is not Turing-complete.
21:37:20 <pjb> DUH
21:37:32 <pjb> Don't go meta willy-nilly!
21:37:46 <pjb> This wasn't the question.
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22:02:29 hackage hledger-lib 1.20.4 - A reusable library providing the core functionality of hledger https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hledger-lib-1.20.4 (SimonMichael)
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22:05:55 <dminuoso> Mysterious ways. When you accidentally miss a pair of parens (so it associates differently), and it type checks and *still* does the same thing..
22:06:25 <dminuoso> instance Monoid b => Monoid (a -> b)
22:07:31 <dminuoso> What a glorious instance. :)
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22:10:51 <SwarmCollective> Ah, when you said "deconstruct" I thought you meant something akin to calling the destructor. Now, I understand: deconstruct or destructure. Extract the content from the structure. Thank you for that.
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22:12:19 <dminuoso> SwarmCollective: another synonym is "pattern matching"
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22:12:30 <dminuoso> (Which is the more commonly used one)
22:12:46 ski sometimes says "destruct"
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22:16:22 <monochrom> dolio: I wonder if, whereas you don't promote obsessing with the Chomsky hierarchy, you instead promote obsessing with the arithmetic hierarchy. :)
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22:16:54 <dolio> Maybe.
22:17:31 <monochrom> I am not entirely innocent either! I obsess with counting how many levels of altnerating quantifiers, even for decidable problems.
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22:19:10 <monochrom> which leads me to say, for example, pumping lemma (∀∃∀∃) harder than limits (∀∃∀) harder than big-O (∃∀)
22:19:31 <dolio> Encoding everything as natural numbers is another antiquated practice, really.
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22:20:12 <dolio> Are the pumping quantifiers actually all unbounded?
22:20:19 <monochrom> Oh, that one, I agree, and Scott Aaronson has a great way of putting it.
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22:21:48 <monochrom> He wrote along the line of "let me explain Gödel numbering in an easy way. I had a highschool friend who was good at math but not so good in programming, he wanted to do arrays but he didn't know arrays already exists, so he thought up of storing [x,y,z] as 2^x 3^y 5^z"
22:22:43 <monochrom> Nice roast framing it as a glorified XY problem.
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22:23:50 <monochrom> One of the ∀ is for arbitrary strings, one of the ∃ is for arbitrary natural number, so I think probably unbounded.
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22:24:40 <monochrom> I don't pay close attention to unboundedness though. Alternating quantifiers kill human comprehension, that's what I encounter the most as a teacher.
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22:25:17 <dolio> Oh, well that's true.
22:25:55 <dolio> I think the pumping lemma might technically only be Π₂.
22:26:04 <monochrom> To be fair, algorithms for mu-calculus also tell us that alternating quantifiers also give computers a really hard time. So I feel that they are fundamentally very difficult.
22:26:28 <dolio> It's a little hard to tell from the "formal" statement on wikipedia, though.
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22:27:13 <dolio> Formal English.
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22:28:21 <monochrom> I wonder if my version at http://www.vex.net/~trebla/weblog/declare-before-use.xhtml helps you more.
22:28:34 <dolio> Oh, I guess it does have an actuala formula at the bottom of that section. I'm unsure about which 'bounds' actually count, though.
22:28:35 <monochrom> I think "2" is right.
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22:29:09 <dolio> p≥1 is not bounded, I think, and I suspect L is not really bounded, either.
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22:29:45 <monochrom> Yeah, "foo in L" can hide more complexity depending on how L is given.
22:30:20 <monochrom> Sometimes L is a finite set, some other times "foo in L" expands to its own many-quantifier statement.
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23:39:18 <orzo> Is there anyway i can get more info about why a package is rejected by cabal's build planner? It says a library "requires build" or fails when i add a constriant at the command line that it be "installed". The failure is "requires installed instance" but I clearly see the library of the correct version in my package db.
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23:45:09 <Heffalump> orzo: I guess you've tried -v?
23:45:38 <Heffalump> also what kind of build are you doing, a new/v2 build or a v1 build?
23:45:44 <orzo> new/v2
23:46:07 <Heffalump> so simply having the correct version isn't enough if other dependencies don't line up, right?
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23:48:13 <orzo> the -v command tells me /usr/bin/pkg-config quit with an error in some entirely unrelated .pc file on my system but this is very likely not the culprit as that would not have changed since last i used the installed library with a cabal build plan
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23:48:59 <orzo> i'm quite certian the library is entirely unrelated to the current build even with all the indirect dependencies
23:49:31 <orzo> correct verison is not enough if the build flags have changed
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23:49:41 <orzo> but cabal is not indicating build flags changed
23:50:06 <orzo> that's another question though, because for some things it says the configuration changed, but i wish it would be more specific with regards to a given dependency
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23:51:11 <orzo> i think the way most people use cabal is that they just rebuild crap whenever it wants to and don't worry about their package db growing with lots of redundant installs, or they don't install the libs but just build them in the local build folder
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23:51:45 <orzo> i use it with more explicitly maintained environments
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23:51:53 <orzo> so a user package db
23:52:09 <orzo> similar to how the v1-install worked
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23:52:42 <orzo> but cabal's vagueness makes my life difficult
23:52:46 <Heffalump> so your issue is not a failure per se but that you are trying to understand why it's rebuilding something?
23:52:53 <orzo> yes
23:53:12 <orzo> when i intend to use an installed library, i woant to know why i cant
23:53:22 <Heffalump> I guess what you want then is all the info that feeds into the hash of the package. I don't know what that is but perhaps it's something you can dig into more.
23:54:15 <orzo> does that info change often between versions?
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23:55:05 <Heffalump> what do you mean by "between versions"? I'm sure the version number would feed into the hash.
23:55:09 <ephemient> every version changes, as well as every change to dependencies
23:55:15 <orzo> i mean between versions of cabal
23:55:37 <Heffalump> ah - not sure
23:55:47 <Heffalump> but if you can find all the inputs you can answer that question :-)
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23:57:48 <orzo> so, if i understand, to check if a package meets requirements of the build, it compares a hash of the requirements of the build with a hash of the library's build info?
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23:58:41 <Heffalump> I assume so
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23:59:25 <ephemient> hmm. assuming your different cabal versions are using the exact same GHC (because that affects the abi hash)... maybe different cabal versions have different generated code (e.g. the Paths_packagename module). I don't expect that is the case though...
23:59:50 <Heffalump> and if the package uses custom setup then the cabal version will certainly matter

All times are in UTC on 2021-01-29.