Logs on 2021-02-06 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 00:17:11 | <ph88^> | does anyone know if it's possible to separate parts of the .stack cache ? thing is that in CI to cache this all takes a long time |
| 00:17:43 | <shiraeeshi> | shapr: > shiraeeshi: you're back! found something neat you want to write? |
| 00:18:32 | <shiraeeshi> | yeah, I monitor this channel (this channel is the most active one of all the channels I monitor now) |
| 00:19:48 | <shiraeeshi> | I have no idea what to write, people who just write stuff without thinking much are lucky |
| 00:20:06 | <shiraeeshi> | in the meantime I'm reading a book about monads |
| 00:20:13 | <johnw> | a whole book about them? |
| 00:20:14 | <shiraeeshi> | about to read about monad laws |
| 00:20:24 | <shiraeeshi> | yeah |
| 00:20:44 | × | Deide quits (~Deide@217.155.19.23) (Quit: Seeee yaaaa) |
| 00:20:47 | <shiraeeshi> | but imho it's better then typical blog posts explaining monads |
| 00:20:52 | <johnw> | if you stack two such books on top of each other, do they become one book about monads? |
| 00:21:00 | × | justanotheruser quits (~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 00:21:05 | <c_wraith> | johnw: no, you need to stick one inside the other |
| 00:21:19 | <johnw> | that's fair |
| 00:21:38 | <c_wraith> | join $ Book (Book Monads) |
| 00:22:02 | <shiraeeshi> | the inner book will be repeated between each pair of pages? |
| 00:22:18 | <johnw> | And it makes sense: a book about a book about monads would also be a book about monads |
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| 00:22:53 | <c_wraith> | it's a very loose, handwavey sort of sense, but it's ok. |
| 00:23:31 | <shapr> | shiraeeshi: I want to make a file duplicate finder |
| 00:24:02 | <shapr> | but I specifically want to use software transactional memory and parallelism, and try out the new concurrent/parallel garbage collector. |
| 00:24:23 | <shapr> | I'd enjoy that project. |
| 00:24:35 | <shapr> | I always have too many project ideas. |
| 00:24:35 | <shiraeeshi> | shapr: I imagine it would scan a specified directory and form an index of files and then search for duplicates in that index? |
| 00:25:05 | <shapr> | yes, I think laziness could mean less work being required |
| 00:26:00 | <shapr> | you only need to load file data until they're not equal, and then you can stop |
| 00:26:12 | <shiraeeshi> | shapr: you're lucky, being able to come up with an idea - that's a gift, not anyone has it |
| 00:27:01 | <monochrom> | haha johnw |
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| 00:30:51 | <nshepperd> | if you have a procedure for turning monads into categories, can you take a book about monads and turn it into a book about categories? |
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| 00:31:37 | <shiraeeshi> | yes, if the book is a functor, right? |
| 00:31:54 | <johnw> | right |
| 00:32:09 | <ph88^> | shapr, what's your latest idea ? |
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| 00:36:46 | <shapr> | ph88^: I want to build a visual bloom filter for process notification |
| 00:37:17 | <shapr> | I have this process status LED board that turns yellow when a process is running, and red or green depending on the exit code |
| 00:37:34 | <shapr> | It's 4 x 8 LEDs, it looks nice. |
| 00:37:50 | <shapr> | But I don't have a way to display the state of more than one process at a time. |
| 00:38:20 | <shapr> | I figured I could hash each command line into four pieces, and only change the status of those lights, bloom filter style. |
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| 00:44:02 | <ph88^> | how does that look like a bloom filter led ? |
| 00:44:48 | <shapr> | I use this to display process status: https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-neotrellis-m4?view=all |
| 00:45:28 | <shapr> | and I use yellow for "in progress" and red for "non zero exit code" and green for "exit code zero" |
| 00:46:09 | <shapr> | so I figure I could display and update the status of multiple processes by hashing the command line to get one bit of eight on each row |
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| 00:48:35 | <monochrom> | This sounds like Mastermind but with process states. |
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| 00:48:51 | <shapr> | monochrom: yeh, close enough |
| 00:49:55 | <shapr> | I don't see a bloom filter library on hackage that does eight bit hashes. |
| 00:51:00 | <nshepperd2> | sounds fun. you could do a counting bloom filter but with a custom join lattice instead of numbers? |
| 00:51:12 | <shapr> | nshepperd2: huh? |
| 00:51:42 | <shapr> | oh, I'm starting to understand that |
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| 00:51:54 | <shapr> | but now I want more details |
| 00:52:21 | <shapr> | If I used blue for "in progress" instead of yellow, then I'd have three independent outputs for each pixel |
| 00:52:32 | <dsal> | I used to use my mac's caps lock light as a build failure indicator. |
| 00:52:32 | <shapr> | then a counting bloom filter would work better, right? |
| 00:52:49 | <shapr> | nshepperd2: can you explain the custom join lattice part? |
| 00:53:25 | <nshepperd2> | you can have a lattice with four elements, like {in progress, success, failure, top} |
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| 00:53:43 | <nshepperd2> | with in progress -> {success, failure} -> top |
| 00:55:02 | <nshepperd2> | and when you update a pixel with a new state, you update it with the join/max of its current state and the new state |
| 00:55:48 | <shapr> | I think that would work |
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| 00:56:30 | <shapr> | This board also has an acceleromoter that's used as a tap sensor, so I'd be able to clear it after a bunch of pixels reached max |
| 00:57:23 | <shapr> | hm, now that I think about it, I could fade the pixels over time |
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| 00:59:16 | <shapr> | Writing Haskell code to make four 8 bit hashes of whatever input sounds like fun to me |
| 00:59:19 | <nshepperd2> | yeah, that would work if you made it so the operation was just channelwise max |
| 01:02:04 | <shapr> | I wrote some bloom filter code a few years ago, I wonder where I put it? |
| 01:04:28 | <shapr> | Right now I have a shell script that scripts gnu screen to send color codes to the circuitpython script |
| 01:05:04 | <shapr> | the code on the board is *really* simple https://gist.github.com/shapr/1b2c4951293d8a7521b977cbb63a4a64 |
| 01:05:20 | <shapr> | I wish I could fit Haskell onto a tiny ARM board |
| 01:06:58 | <monochrom> | Hugs may fit. |
| 01:07:34 | <monochrom> | Also, "Hugs is written in C so it is fast" |
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| 01:07:56 | <shapr> | Yes, of course :-) |
| 01:08:26 | <monochrom> | Next time someone drivels with "C is strict therefore it is fast", remind me to reply: |
| 01:08:36 | <monochrom> | "Hugs is written in C so it is strict and fast" |
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| 01:13:30 | <shiraeeshi> | I've read somewhere that foldr is preferable rather than foldl |
| 01:13:56 | <glguy> | They do different things. It's best to just understand them both and pick the right one |
| 01:14:00 | <shiraeeshi> | don't remember what language was concerned |
| 01:14:14 | <koz_> | It depends heavily on what's being folded. |
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| 01:14:27 | <shiraeeshi> | I don't get it: it sounds like foldl should be more preferred |
| 01:14:54 | <shiraeeshi> | here is what I tried: |
| 01:15:25 | <shiraeeshi> | foldr (+) 0 [1..1000000000000000000000000] |
| 01:15:49 | <shiraeeshi> | gives "*** Exception: stack overflow" answer |
| 01:16:03 | <shiraeeshi> | foldl (+) 0 [1..1000000000000000000000000] |
| 01:16:29 | <shiraeeshi> | freezes and then gives "Killed" answer |
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| 01:16:52 | <shiraeeshi> | why did foldl freeze? |
| 01:17:00 | <glguy> | Neither foldl nor foldr are good solutions to summing up 1000000000000000000000000 numbers |
| 01:17:08 | <koz_> | :t sum |
| 01:17:09 | <lambdabot> | (Foldable t, Num a) => t a -> a |
| 01:17:15 | <koz_> | _That_ is what you should prefer. |
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| 01:17:25 | <shiraeeshi> | but why did it freeze? |
| 01:17:34 | <shapr> | I suspect it was getting to the end of the list. |
| 01:17:45 | <shapr> | > sum [1..1000000000000000000000000] |
| 01:17:51 | <lambdabot> | mueval-core: Time limit exceeded |
| 01:17:54 | <shapr> | oh well |
| 01:17:56 | <koz_> | LOL |
| 01:18:20 | <glguy> | 1000000000000000000000000 is too big to worry about ever getting to the end of the list |
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| 01:18:58 | <glguy> | > logBase 2 1000000000000000000000000 |
| 01:19:00 | <lambdabot> | 79.7262742772967 |
| 01:19:02 | <shiraeeshi> | so the reason is just that it takes too long? |
| 01:19:36 | <shiraeeshi> | my intution was that it works like a loop |
| 01:20:14 | <shapr> | @src foldr |
| 01:20:14 | <lambdabot> | foldr f z [] = z |
| 01:20:14 | <lambdabot> | foldr f z (x:xs) = f x (foldr f z xs) |
| 01:20:32 | <shiraeeshi> | but I heard in this channel that haskell doesn't use call stacks, so I don't know if my intuition is right anymore. |
| 01:20:32 | <shapr> | @src foldl |
| 01:20:32 | <lambdabot> | foldl f z [] = z |
| 01:20:32 | <lambdabot> | foldl f z (x:xs) = foldl f (f z x) xs |
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| 01:21:15 | <monochrom> | There is, instead, an "evaluation stack". |
| 01:21:37 | <glguy> | for summing a list, foldl' is preferred over foldl or foldr, on that particular topic |
| 01:21:50 | <monochrom> | But I refuse to make a big fuss about the different name because it still acts like a call stack. |
| 01:22:46 | <koz_> | monochrom: Duck stack. |
| 01:23:02 | <monochrom> | If you have "3 + 4 * f x" then while you dive deep to work on the "f x" part, there is a stack to remember "you still have to 4* afterwards, and then you still have to 3+ afterwards". So it is still a call stack. |
| 01:24:27 | <monochrom> | Lazy evaluation doesn't change the fact that you have a stack and it can grow, it just changes what goes there. And since Haskell still has an eager part, when you hit an eager subexpression the stack becomes a call stack. |
| 01:24:43 | <shiraeeshi> | sounds like foldl is preferable over foldr, because it doesn't grow the call stack then. |
| 01:25:46 | <dsal> | I use foldr most of the time. |
| 01:26:06 | <glguy> | shiraeeshi, it'll still be more useful to understand the difference than to guess at a general rule |
| 01:26:25 | <dolio> | foldl is never preferable to anything, I think. |
| 01:26:38 | <dsal> | (well, trying to avoid that detail) |
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| 01:27:09 | <dsal> | But for the exact problem above, there's no appropriate loop to compute the sum of 1..1000000000000000000000000 |
| 01:27:16 | <monochrom> | I am actually bivalent on this, to be honest. |
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| 01:27:50 | <glguy> | dolio, if you were going to foldr of reverse I'd think you might as well foldl |
| 01:27:55 | <monochrom> | Sometimes, I talk of a stack, and I don't care whether you prefix it with "call" or "eval". |
| 01:28:12 | <monochrom> | The other times, I don't even want you to think in terms of any stack. |
| 01:29:13 | <monochrom> | foldl (+) 0, as opposed to foldl' (+) 0, takes linear space because it builds up the unevaluated data structure "a+b+c+d+..." and then, only then, evaluates it. |
| 01:29:24 | <dolio> | glguy: I don't know, maybe. There probably isn't a good reason to not use foldl' in that case. |
| 01:29:51 | <monochrom> | This is enough to explain why it takes linear space, I don't care how that linear space is partitioned into heap and stack. No one should care. |
| 01:29:56 | <glguy> | dolio, there are about as many times you'd benefit from the laziness in that case as with normal foldr |
| 01:30:20 | <shapr> | I'm still running that sum on my laptop, but it's using 120GB of memory. I'm curious how this will end. |
| 01:30:54 | <dolio> | > 1000000000000000000000000 :: Double |
| 01:30:56 | <lambdabot> | 1.0e24 |
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| 01:31:09 | <monochrom> | On the other hand, foldr (&&) whatever (False : whatever) takes O(1) time (therefore O(1) space), you can hand-do lazy evaluation to see this. Again, you don't need to ask about stack. |
| 01:31:22 | <dolio> | shapr: I think it might not end until after you're dead. |
| 01:31:35 | <glguy> | I maintain that it's such a fundamental concept to programming in Haskell that one should expect to just understand the choice rather than guessing at rules |
| 01:32:59 | <shapr> | uh oh, it's hit 200GB of memory and is now into my swapfile |
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| 01:33:16 | <shapr> | ok, I give up |
| 01:33:16 | <monochrom> | shapr is the only one in #haskell that can use 120GB RAM :) |
| 01:33:20 | <dolio> | Oh, it's using memory? Then it will finish. |
| 01:33:29 | <shapr> | dolio: nah, it hit swap |
| 01:33:33 | <monochrom> | onoes, if shapr gives up, there is no hope. :) |
| 01:33:53 | <shapr> | :-P |
| 01:34:06 | <monochrom> | Yeah dolio, shapr's laptop has like 128GB RAM (and I forgot how many cores, but >=64) |
| 01:34:11 | <monochrom> | "laptop" |
| 01:34:14 | <shapr> | Sadly, I haven't yet found a laptop that offers 256GB RAM |
| 01:34:22 | <monochrom> | or more clearly, "some laptop there" |
| 01:34:24 | <shapr> | I only have six Xeon cores :-P |
| 01:34:32 | <monochrom> | Ah OK! |
| 01:34:38 | <shapr> | and very little battery life |
| 01:35:27 | <shapr> | shiraeeshi: I agree with glguy, it's best to understand the difference |
| 01:35:46 | <dsal> | How do I get one of these datacenter laptops? |
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| 01:36:25 | <monochrom> | This is my lazy evaluation lecture notes for my students: http://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~trebla/CSCC24-2020-Summer/03-haskell-evaluation.html |
| 01:36:47 | <shapr> | dsal: they don't sell the P52 anymore, but the P15 offers an 8 core Xeon and 128GB ECC memory. It's more expensive than this P52 though. |
| 01:37:15 | <shiraeeshi> | shapr: what function did you use to compute the sum? |
| 01:37:25 | <monochrom> | You are really better off biting the bullet and learning lazy evaluation properly than hoping for fragile "rules of thumb" "best practice". |
| 01:37:58 | <shiraeeshi> | so if foldl was to reach the end of the list it would give me the "stack overflow" error? |
| 01:38:06 | <shiraeeshi> | what about foldl' ? |
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| 01:39:40 | <dsal> | shiraeeshi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_%2B_2_%2B_3_%2B_4_%2B_%E2%8B%AF |
| 01:39:50 | <shiraeeshi> | if you were to write a simple loop it would run without eating all the memory, is there a way to translate it to haskell? I guess it's foldl' |
| 01:40:34 | <shapr> | oops: [161261.200467] Out of memory: Killed process 11887 (ghc) total-vm:1074482392kB, anon-rss:127413672kB, file-rss:0kB, shmem-rss:0kB, UID:1000 pgtables:506432kB oom_score_adj:0 |
| 01:40:34 | <dsal> | I think your question is wrong. |
| 01:41:11 | <dsal> | There are lots of different loops that we use for different reasons. None of them are used to solve the problem you're stating. That's not a language issue, just... computer can't do that. |
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| 01:44:19 | <shiraeeshi> | I have a stupid question |
| 01:44:32 | <shiraeeshi> | why can't computer do that? |
| 01:44:35 | <shapr> | shiraeeshi: you could consume a lazy list |
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| 01:45:02 | <shiraeeshi> | you need to store two numbers, right? |
| 01:45:29 | <dsal> | shiraeeshi: If you measure how long it takes to do one bignum addition, and then multiply that by the number of additions you're asking the computer to do, you'll understand the approach *can't* work. |
| 01:46:07 | <monochrom> | At some point a mature programmer understands this: A computer won't do anything at all until someone codes up what exactly to do. |
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| 01:47:29 | <shiraeeshi> | I need to rephrase the question: why did the computation take all the memory on shapr's computer? |
| 01:47:38 | <monochrom> | In the particular case of recognizing 1+...+n = n(n+1)/2, please refer to Mathematica. |
| 01:48:04 | <shiraeeshi> | two numbers took all the memory? |
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| 01:48:52 | <dsal> | I'm not sure what shapr was doing exactly. It shouldn't take much memory, but I can't promise humans won't be extinct by the time it finishes. |
| 01:49:49 | <dsal> | Oh, just sum in ghci? There are a few reasons that could use a lot of memory. |
| 01:50:18 | <dsal> | But there's no situation where it works, so failing unexpectedly vs. the way you expect it to fail is only mildly interesting. :) |
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| 01:51:22 | <monochrom> | A mature computer science student also understand that a short problem statement can still take arbitrarily much time and space to solve. |
| 01:51:25 | <shiraeeshi> | here is an article I was talking about: https://wiki.haskell.org/Foldr_Foldl_Foldl%27 |
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| 01:51:55 | ← | brainfunnel parts (~quassel@224.142.208.46.dyn.plus.net) ("thanks, bye!") |
| 01:52:11 | <shiraeeshi> | I don't get this part: |
| 01:52:13 | <shiraeeshi> | foldr is not only the right fold, it is also most commonly the right fold to use, in particular when transforming lists (or other foldables) into lists with related elements in the same order. Notably, foldr will be effective for transforming even infinite lists into other infinite lists. For such purposes, it should be your first and most natural choice. For example, note that foldr (:) []==id. |
| 01:52:23 | <shiraeeshi> | Note that the initial element is irrelevant when foldr is applied to an infinite list. For that reason, it is may be good practice when writing a function which should only be applied to infinite lists to replace foldr f [] with foldr f undefined. This both documents that the function should only be applied to infinite lists and will result in an error when you try to apply it to a finite list. |
| 01:53:07 | <monochrom> | It means you would be wise to use foldr, not foldl or foldl', for "map" for example. map f = foldr (\x r -> f x : r) []. |
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| 01:53:30 | <dsal> | Hmm... I tend to reach for undefined mostly when I'm mad at myself and want to cause problems in my future. |
| 01:53:35 | <monochrom> | I mean look at the "transforming lists into lists" |
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| 01:57:14 | <shiraeeshi> | but why foldr if it grows the call stack? and also I don't get the part about infinite lists. an infinite list goes from left to right, doesn't it? so going from left to right (like foldl or foldl') sounds like a right thing to do. |
| 01:57:17 | <monochrom> | But it doesn't show an example that shows you the benefit of that. |
| 01:57:38 | <monochrom> | E.g., how "head (map f longlonglist)" takes O(1) time. |
| 01:57:52 | <monochrom> | This is why I refer people to my lecture notes instead. |
| 01:58:06 | <dolio> | I kind of convinced myself the other day that "call stack" is always wrong, because it primes you to think that calls need to use stack. But you only need to use stack to return back after the call is done, which isn't always the case. |
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| 01:59:01 | <monochrom> | I have accepted that "call stack" is a wrong name we're stuck with. |
| 01:59:08 | <dolio> | :) |
| 01:59:25 | × | tromp quits (~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 01:59:31 | <monochrom> | It belongs to the same bin as "dashboard" for example. |
| 02:00:31 | <monochrom> | There is no longer a board, and dash is blocked by the windshield not the dashboard, so it is like the Ship of Theseus for etymology. |
| 02:01:10 | <shiraeeshi> | I think I'm starting to understand. |
| 02:01:31 | <shiraeeshi> | Let's take two expressions for example: |
| 02:01:41 | <shiraeeshi> | 1 + (2 + (3 + (...))) |
| 02:01:43 | <shiraeeshi> | and |
| 02:01:44 | <monochrom> | But if we keep saying "dashboard" I guess we can also keep saying "call stack". May one day it is no longer about calls and it is no longer a stack. |
| 02:01:45 | <shiraeeshi> | (((0 + 1) + 2) + 3) + ... |
| 02:02:03 | <monochrom> | Oh, and Holy Roman Empire, clearly. :) |
| 02:02:25 | <shiraeeshi> | so each opening and closing parens mean something |
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| 02:02:57 | <dolio> | Anyhow, "call stack" makes people think tail calls not using stack is an optimization, rather than tail calls using optimization an example of poorly implementing the continuation. :) |
| 02:03:09 | <monochrom> | At any rate, GHC uses the name HasCallStack so you can't get rid of it now. :) |
| 02:03:12 | <dolio> | Er, tail calls using stack. |
| 02:03:19 | <shiraeeshi> | with an infinitite list you got infinite amount of opening parens at the beginning of your expression, so it won't run, right? |
| 02:03:52 | <nshepperd2> | foldr vs foldl is not about whether it goes from left to right or right to left |
| 02:03:58 | <monochrom> | "it won't run" takes zero time. |
| 02:04:25 | <monochrom> | If it takes more than a minute then it runs, in fact it runs too happily to want to stop. |
| 02:04:26 | <shiraeeshi> | ok, it will do something with those infinite amount of opening parens |
| 02:04:46 | <shiraeeshi> | that's foldl |
| 02:05:00 | <monochrom> | Unless you fire up htop and point out that the OS has put it to sleep. |
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| 02:05:26 | <monochrom> | in which case we look for a prince to kiss it |
| 02:05:48 | <nshepperd2> | but yes, you're basically right |
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| 02:07:13 | <shiraeeshi> | wait, what's the point of running fold on an infinite list again? |
| 02:07:18 | <nshepperd2> | foldl of an infinite list denotes an expression like (...(((0 + 1) + 2) + 3) + ... |
| 02:07:41 | <monochrom> | Oh, sum [1..] is pointless, sure, foldr or foldl |
| 02:08:17 | <nshepperd2> | an infinite expression with no 'outside' to start evaluating, so it never gets anywhere useful |
| 02:08:24 | <monochrom> | Unless someone needs to keep pizza warm. |
| 02:08:45 | <monochrom> | But (+) is hardly the one binary operator. |
| 02:09:17 | <shiraeeshi> | how do you transform an infinite list into another infinite list using foldr? |
| 02:09:30 | <monochrom> | This is what's wrong with most explanations of foldr and foldl. They only talk about (+). Yes they're completely pointless. The explanations I mean. |
| 02:09:51 | <monochrom> | You have seen two examples already. |
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| 02:09:53 | <dsal> | shiraeeshi: I probably wouldn't. What kind of transform are you performing? |
| 02:10:01 | <c_wraith> | > foldr (\c xs -> if c == ' ' && null xs then [] else c:xs) [] "hello there " |
| 02:10:04 | <lambdabot> | "hello there" |
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| 02:10:17 | <c_wraith> | > foldr (\c xs -> if c == ' ' && null xs then [] else c:xs) [] (cycle "hello there ") |
| 02:10:18 | <lambdabot> | "hello there hello there hello there hello there hello there hello there hel... |
| 02:10:43 | <nshepperd2> | shiraeeshi: foldr (:) [] is the most trivial example |
| 02:12:46 | <shiraeeshi> | dsal: I'm referring to an article. it says: "Notably, foldr will be effective for transforming even infinite lists into other infinite lists." |
| 02:13:22 | <shiraeeshi> | I'm trying to understand examples |
| 02:13:55 | <monochrom> | > head (foldr (:) [] [1..]) |
| 02:13:57 | <lambdabot> | 1 |
| 02:14:04 | <monochrom> | This takes O(1) time. |
| 02:14:07 | <monochrom> | Sleep on it. |
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| 02:14:40 | <monochrom> | Destroy all mental models that insist "foldr starts from the right". |
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| 02:16:17 | <shiraeeshi> | ok, I'm gonna experiment with this example |
| 02:16:47 | <dsal> | shiraeeshi: Do you understand how something like `map` can work on infinite lists? |
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| 02:18:26 | <dsal> | > let mope f = foldr (\x o -> f x : o) [] in takeWhile (<100) $ mope (*11) [2..] -- because you can write map in terms of foldr, and then use that on infinite lists, shiraeeshi |
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| 02:18:28 | <lambdabot> | [22,33,44,55,66,77,88,99] |
| 02:19:12 | <shiraeeshi> | yes, map case I can understand and imagine |
| 02:20:23 | <monochrom> | map is a foldr. I showed how. |
| 02:20:24 | <dsal> | Oh. Well there's an implementation of map written using foldr. :) |
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| 02:21:18 | <monochrom> | Hell, dsal showed it for the second time just now. |
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| 02:22:10 | <dsal> | I think there were like, four examples of that. heh. Just seems like an upside-down question to me. |
| 02:25:07 | <monochrom> | Students also ask "I want to do && on a long list, and I want it to stop early, i.e., stop as soon as it hits the first False". That's foldr (&&) |
| 02:25:12 | <c_wraith> | really, foldr captures the entire pattern of "(co-)recursively process an entire list" |
| 02:25:19 | <monochrom> | This breaks a lot of mental models. |
| 02:26:02 | <shiraeeshi> | I confused (:) with (,) and was expecting pairs to show up |
| 02:26:05 | <monochrom> | And for those surviving mental models, most can then be broken by how liftA2 (&&) doesn't stop early (e.g., for IO) |
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| 02:27:01 | <monochrom> | A common Schemer mistake. (All of the above.) |
| 02:28:03 | <monochrom> | err, s/liftA2 (&&)/foldr (liftA2 (&&))/ |
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| 03:44:55 | hackage | box-tuples 0.2.0.4 - A hack to use GHC.Prim primitives in GHCi https://hackage.haskell.org/package/box-tuples-0.2.0.4 (mniip) |
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| 05:41:12 | <johnw> | c_wraith: why do you say "co" there? |
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| 05:47:22 | <c_wraith> | johnw: technically, I said "(co-)", because foldr can work either way. As for the difference - co-recursion is just a different thing than recursion. it doesn't require a base case, but it does require a pattern of guarded access. |
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| 05:49:05 | <johnw> | when I think of corecursion, I think of unfoldr |
| 05:49:17 | <c_wraith> | foldr (:) [] is co-recursive |
| 05:49:43 | <johnw> | how so? |
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| 05:50:57 | <c_wraith> | well, it works with infinite inputs. |
| 05:51:10 | <johnw> | per Wikipedia: "Corecursion is then a technique for recursively defining functions whose range (codomain) is a final data type, dual to the way that ordinary recursion recursively defines functions whose domain is an initial data type." |
| 05:51:13 | <c_wraith> | Note: recursion is *required* to be well-founded |
| 05:51:18 | <johnw> | so I think you're right, it can be used in both contexts |
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| 05:52:18 | <dolio> | foldr is always recursion, really. |
| 05:52:34 | <c_wraith> | yep. Haskell is extremely sloppy with the difference between recursion and co-recursion |
| 05:52:44 | <c_wraith> | You can easily write things that work either way |
| 05:52:55 | <johnw> | dolio: please say more |
| 05:53:42 | <johnw> | it's always recursive because it only ever deconstructs a data type recursively, regardless of the fact that that data may be infinite? |
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| 05:53:43 | <c_wraith> | foldr is always recursion if [] is always data. |
| 05:54:11 | <c_wraith> | but, once again - Haskell is sloppy. [] can be treated as codata |
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| 05:54:33 | <dolio> | It's a recursive definition on lists. The result type is abstract, so it's not really being defined in terms of some co-recursive structure of it. |
| 05:55:11 | <dolio> | In unfoldr the result type is not abstract, hence being associated with corecursion. |
| 05:56:30 | <dolio> | If you wrote a function where both the argument and result types were concrete, it would make more sense to have a choice of 'justifications'. |
| 05:57:32 | <johnw> | thanks dolio |
| 05:57:32 | <c_wraith> | so you'd agree foldr (:) [] is corecursive? |
| 05:58:40 | <dolio> | Also, recursion may not have base cases. For instance, you can define an empty type as a W-type with no base case, and then the proof of 'absurd' or whatever you want to call it is recursion with no base case. |
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| 06:01:28 | <dolio> | If you wrote the identity function that rebuilt its input, I would agree you could look at the definition either recursively or corecursively. But I think foldr is a recursive definition, not corecursive. Applying the function to arguments doesn't change that. |
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| 06:02:30 | <c_wraith> | so you are rejecting equational reasoning? :P |
| 06:03:05 | <dolio> | Classifying things as recursive definitions isn't equational. |
| 06:03:31 | <c_wraith> | It's the same definition, modulo some inlining |
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| 06:08:07 | <dolio> | Agda doesn't let you write fold on infinite streams, then say it's okay if you call the function with arguments to build a new stream, even if inlining those arguments would make the definition guarded. The definition gets classified on its own. |
| 06:08:40 | <c_wraith> | that's only an argument in favor of Haskell being super-sloppy |
| 06:11:10 | <dolio> | It's not sloppy, though, it just uses different semantics. foldr is a recursive definition on an inductively defined domain, rather than a set. |
| 06:11:41 | <monochrom> | I am more sloppy than Haskell. In front of undergrad students who don't really benefit from more words they can't use, I say "recursion" for every self-reference. |
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| 06:12:58 | <c_wraith> | on an entirely different subject - when did ghc start requiring the libnuma headers in order to link libraries? |
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| 06:13:30 | <dolio> | It's also coinductively defined, because those are the same for domains. But foldr doesn't use the coinductive character of lists. |
| 06:13:53 | <monochrom> | Oh, that. If you use ghcup you're more likely to get a build that doesn't requires libnuma. |
| 06:14:02 | <c_wraith> | I am indeed |
| 06:14:22 | <c_wraith> | err. I misread that. But I am using ghcup |
| 06:14:30 | <c_wraith> | but on wsl, so things might be treated oddly |
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| 06:16:37 | <monochrom> | "WSL" still depends on which linux you chose for WSL. But last year I was on WSL Ubuntu and didn't need libnuma. |
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| 06:18:23 | <monochrom> | When ghcup thinks you're on Ubuntu it chooses the Fedora build, which doesn't involve libnuma up to and including 8.8.4. I once got bit by libnuma but that was before ghcup and I chose a debian build from GHC website. |
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| 06:18:58 | <c_wraith> | Oh. I guess it thinks I'm on Debian, because... I'm on debian. Because snaps were annoying me a ton |
| 06:19:43 | <monochrom> | OK, I meant libnuma-dev throughout. libnuma1 is required by a lot of other Ubuntu stuff anyway, like irqbalance. |
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| 06:55:38 | <texasmynsted> | Is there a "typical" place to cabal install an executable when you want it installed in the project directory rather than more global location? Like 'target' directory or something? |
| 06:56:31 | <texasmynsted> | Say I have project foo. I have an executable named bar. I want bar installed inside the foo project directory, like in target. |
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| 07:28:53 | <texasmynsted> | nm target works fine |
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| 07:41:43 | <hololeap> | say i've got some sum-type called T, and i want to build up a (Set T) by parsing a string |
| 07:42:29 | <hololeap> | this string has keywords separated by '-' and can be in any order. these keywords correspond to the different constructors of T. |
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| 07:43:19 | <hololeap> | so each constructor can have zero or one corresponding keywords in this string, and again they can be in any order |
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| 07:44:47 | <hololeap> | with megaparsec, would i have to use something like `ParsecT e s (State (Set T)) ()` in order to build up the set? |
| 07:44:58 | <hololeap> | (that's Control.Monad.State btw) |
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| 07:45:43 | <hololeap> | because i would have to check the current Set and see if a constructor has already been added, and have the parser fail if there is a duplicate |
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| 08:21:57 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: fmap Set.fromList (parseTvalue `sepBy` char '-') |
| 08:22:01 | <tomsmeding> | or am I missing something? |
| 08:22:29 | <tomsmeding> | oh if you have to fail on duplicates, make that fromList more intelligent |
| 08:24:18 | <tomsmeding> | paranoidFromList l = case l of [] -> Just mempty ; x:xs -> let s = paranoidFromList xs in if x `Set.member` s then Nothing else Just (Set.insert x s) |
| 08:24:36 | <tomsmeding> | where you can write that 'if' using 'guard' and '>>' I think; nice exercise |
| 08:24:52 | <tomsmeding> | then use paranoidFromList instead of Set.fromList, and the resulting thing will have type Parser (Maybe (Set T)) |
| 08:25:26 | <tomsmeding> | The only thing I have ever even attempted to use parser state for is indentation-sensitive languages |
| 08:25:50 | <tomsmeding> | but I'm convinced it's never _necessary_, possibly just convenient; monads are damn expressive |
| 08:26:54 | <tomsmeding> | note that with my solution you parse the entire list, and then you go checking whether there were actually any duplicates |
| 08:27:28 | <tomsmeding> | but unless you have _very_ stringent performance requirements that you _must_ stop parsing _immediately_ whenever a failure occurs, that shouldn't be a problem :p |
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| 08:47:27 | <tomsmeding> | okay paranoidFromList needs some >>= instead of a let...in |
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| 09:06:00 | <tomsmeding> | also paranoidFromList uses an O(n) callstack written this way because of the right-fold strucutre; exercise to the reader is making it a simple loop over the list that doesn't accumulate a callstack |
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| 09:33:54 | hackage | chart-svg 0.2.1 - Charting library targetting SVGs. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/chart-svg-0.2.1 (tonyday567) |
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| 09:38:54 | hackage | ghc-vis 0.9.2 - Live visualization of data structures in GHCi https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-vis-0.9.2 (DennisFelsing) |
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| 10:25:19 | <libertyprime> | how does one find out what a cradle is? (in the context of hie-bios) |
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| 10:26:01 | <libertyprime> | cant seem to find any related documentation or a glossary |
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| 10:33:03 | <libertyprime> | i feel like im doing the work of the ghc compiler (inferring the definition of 'cradle' from its usage). HIE could use a glossary, i think |
| 10:35:46 | <fendor> | libertyprime, it is probably easier to ask directly what a cradle is at #haskell-language-server |
| 10:35:55 | <libertyprime> | thanks fendor |
| 10:36:05 | <fendor> | but yeah, hls needs a better documentation |
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| 10:36:27 | <fendor> | libertyprime, hie-bios explains a bit what a cradle is: https://github.com/mpickering/hie-bios/ |
| 10:37:07 | <libertyprime> | yeah haha. i was just reading that. so far i know there are different types of cradles |
| 10:37:36 | <libertyprime> | i know you can have a multi-cradle, for instance |
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| 10:37:46 | <libertyprime> | funny |
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| 10:39:25 | <maerwald[m]> | cradles make little sense from a user perspective. It should be a hidden implementation detail |
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| 10:39:54 | <fendor> | maerwald[m], absolutely |
| 10:41:01 | <ph88^> | does anyone have an advice how to speed up stack in gitlab ? |
| 10:41:56 | <maerwald[m]> | S3 caching |
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| 10:46:18 | <ph88^> | i have self hosted gitlab |
| 10:46:22 | <ph88^> | can not use external stuff |
| 10:52:33 | <maerwald[m]> | ? |
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| 10:55:55 | hackage | lsfrom 0.1 - List dir files starting from a specific name https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lsfrom-0.1 (JensPetersen) |
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| 11:00:11 | <ph88^> | maerwald[m], company policy |
| 11:02:18 | <maerwald[m]> | ph88^: S3 can be private |
| 11:03:03 | <ph88^> | you are refering to S3 amazon aws right ? |
| 11:03:21 | <maerwald[m]> | Yes |
| 11:03:48 | <ph88^> | we are not amazon, amazon is external, can not use it (for storing our IP) |
| 11:03:56 | <ph88^> | company policy |
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| 11:17:49 | <merijn> | texasmynsted: The solution is to use "cabal run" for that, tbh |
| 11:18:06 | <whataday> | do; a <- (+1); b <- (+2); return (a+b); why this (+1) fit here? should it be Reader (+1)? |
| 11:18:42 | <whataday> | a <- return (+1)? |
| 11:18:54 | <c_wraith> | :t (+1) |
| 11:18:55 | <lambdabot> | Num a => a -> a |
| 11:19:02 | <c_wraith> | :t (>>=) |
| 11:19:03 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b |
| 11:19:23 | <c_wraith> | Just need to unify (a -> a) with m a' |
| 11:19:38 | <c_wraith> | which turns out to work, m ~ ((->) a) |
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| 11:20:07 | <c_wraith> | that is the same thing as Reader, but without newtype wrappers |
| 11:21:42 | <whataday> | why people say ReaderT is really useful, and Reader isn't |
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| 11:22:16 | <c_wraith> | because Reader r a is identical to r -> a |
| 11:22:29 | <c_wraith> | Functions are great! |
| 11:22:38 | <c_wraith> | But the newtype doesn't really help anything |
| 11:23:25 | hackage | hls-retrie-plugin 0.1.1.0 - Retrie integration plugin for Haskell Language Server https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hls-retrie-plugin-0.1.1.0 (PepeIborra) |
| 11:23:25 | <whataday> | so Reader's benefits just same as functions? |
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| 11:23:43 | <c_wraith> | It's even less convenient than functions, in most cases |
| 11:24:22 | <maerwald[m]> | I've never used ReaderT in 8 or so years of haskell |
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| 11:24:29 | <whataday> | what's the most useful ReaderT? ReaderT r m a? |
| 11:24:55 | <whataday> | ReaderT r IO a? |
| 11:25:10 | <c_wraith> | whatever solves your problem |
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| 11:26:29 | <whataday> | what's that Dependent Injection related to Reader? |
| 11:26:40 | <maerwald[m]> | ReaderT doesn't solve any problem, it's just style and convenience |
| 11:26:43 | <merijn> | maerwald[m]: It works well during exploratory stages |
| 11:27:51 | <merijn> | maerwald[m]: If there's functionality that you use at the very leaves of your callstack that is likely too change considerably, plumbing it via ReaderT means not having to change hundreds of intermediate calls when you change the implementation |
| 11:28:57 | <merijn> | maerwald[m]: Unless you meant *specifically* ReaderT and not "newtypes abstracting ReaderT", in which case I might agree |
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| 11:38:21 | <maerwald[m]> | merijn: i've used MonadReader, but even that i don't find too useful. |
| 11:39:04 | <maerwald[m]> | I don't do transformer newtypes, only mtl |
| 11:39:45 | <maerwald[m]> | During exploratory stages, my codebases are usually fairly small |
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| 11:42:36 | <ocharles> | Is there a way to get ghc to output absolute file paths in error messages, rather than relative? |
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| 11:44:45 | <ocharles> | https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/15680 looks like it's not supported |
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| 13:08:33 | <user673898> | I'm trying to build my library with cabal but it complains that it can't find the source |
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| 13:08:40 | <user673898> | I have the line "exposed-modules: MyApp.TestModule" and TestModule.hs is in the root directory |
| 13:08:45 | <user673898> | "can't find source for MyApp\TestModule in .," |
| 13:08:55 | <user673898> | why does it replace the '.' with '\'? |
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| 13:10:33 | <Uniaika> | user673898: what's weird indeed. Do you have your project somewhere? |
| 13:10:36 | <Uniaika> | online |
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| 13:12:06 | <j2t> | hi, I see that I tuples of Int implement Ord class. How do a search for a place where it implements that? |
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| 13:13:09 | <fendor> | j2t, I would go to the definition of tuple and look at the instances |
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| 13:13:21 | <user673898> | @Uniaika so you mean this should be okay? I can assemble a MWE and upload it |
| 13:13:21 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
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| 13:13:31 | <fendor> | j2t, https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-prim-0.6.1/docs/GHC-Tuple.html#t:-40--44--41- |
| 13:13:34 | <fendor> | found via |
| 13:13:36 | <fendor> | @hoogle (,) |
| 13:13:36 | <lambdabot> | GHC.Tuple data (,) a b |
| 13:13:36 | <lambdabot> | GHC.Tuple (,) :: a -> b -> (,) a b |
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| 13:13:57 | <honigkuchen> | how does a hashtable use a hash as an index? |
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| 13:14:31 | <j2t> | fendor, thanks. I had found this https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.1.0/docs/Data-Tuple.html |
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| 13:15:22 | <fendor> | j2t, yeah it (unfortunately but reasonably) does not re-export the tuple data type |
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| 13:19:34 | <Uniaika> | user673898: your error is very suspicious, I'll wait for an MWE :) |
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| 13:23:52 | <user673898> | @Uniaika managed to fix it. if I put the TestModule.hs in a directory MyApp which is in the root dir then it works |
| 13:23:52 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
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| 13:24:33 | <user673898> | I thought that every src dir is scanned and the file whose module name matches the one in the list is selected |
| 13:26:25 | <user673898> | now I've got a new error.. |
| 13:26:25 | <Uniaika> | user673898: ok great |
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| 13:32:25 | <user673898> | mwe-0.1.0.0: Warning: library-dirs: C:\Program doesn't exist or isn't a |
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| 13:33:51 | <nshepperd> | spaces in file paths are always interesting times |
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| 13:35:44 | <user673898> | had to add double quotes in the cabal config |
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| 13:39:31 | <merijn> | hmm |
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| 13:40:01 | <merijn> | You know what I need? v2-freeze on steroids, like, something that simply grabs and archives all the Hackage tarballs too |
| 13:40:26 | <maerwald> | local-freeze |
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| 13:40:50 | <merijn> | I don't suppose someone has made that yet? |
| 13:41:10 | <maerwald> | no, because that sounds too much like nix |
| 13:41:26 | <merijn> | Kinda, yes :p |
| 13:42:20 | <merijn> | Although I don't think Nix really holds the dependency locally either |
| 13:42:41 | <merijn> | So, that doesn't solve the *actual* problem I have anyway |
| 13:43:19 | <maerwald> | would be surprised if nix doesn't have an offline mode |
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| 13:44:03 | <merijn> | Anyway, unless someone else will do the Nix stuff for me, that's not happening anyway :p |
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| 13:44:59 | <maerwald> | that's how nix works... someone else does it |
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| 13:46:31 | <merijn> | ;) |
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| 13:55:16 | <merijn> | maerwald: Actually, isn't that how all open source works? :p |
| 13:55:36 | <merijn> | maerwald: Just subsidise your global multi-billion tech company by guilt tripping free labour online! |
| 13:56:33 | <tdammers> | institutionalized "do it for your resume" |
| 13:57:04 | <maerwald> | and so we did... |
| 13:57:21 | <aldum> | it's ridiculous how expected this is nowadays |
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| 13:57:40 | <aldum> | what, you don't have years worth of work public? you must not be hiring-worthy then |
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| 13:58:33 | <merijn> | tdammers: Did you see google's new policy? |
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| 13:59:13 | <merijn> | tdammers: basically "let's smear open source not released under the author's legal name" >.> |
| 13:59:46 | <merijn> | maerwald: Hey, I'm doing my best! I convinced Ben to drop the 32bit windows build of GHC! |
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| 13:59:54 | <maerwald> | You know what they say: "If I do a job in 30 minutes, it's because I spent 10 years learning how to do that in 30 minutes. You owe me for the years, not the minutes." |
| 14:00:19 | <merijn> | maerwald: Under the argument of "if some big enterprise somehow still relies on it, they're probably slow an enterprise enough to bloody well pay for it themselves" |
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| 14:11:25 | hackage | vulkan 3.9.1 - Bindings to the Vulkan graphics API. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vulkan-3.9.1 (jophish) |
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| 14:13:25 | hackage | code-page 0.2.1 - Windows code page library for Haskell https://hackage.haskell.org/package/code-page-0.2.1 (ryanglscott) |
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| 14:14:24 | hackage | hslua 1.3.0.1 - Bindings to Lua, an embeddable scripting language https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hslua-1.3.0.1 (tarleb) |
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| 14:21:51 | <juri_> | as someone who hires software developers, i really like having a lively git(hub/lab) profile to look at. |
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| 14:22:34 | <Uniaika> | juri_: do you hire haskell people? :P |
| 14:22:45 | <juri_> | Yes. |
| 14:22:51 | <juri_> | Hired one last week. |
| 14:23:19 | <juri_> | no, not currently hiring anyone who's not a walk-on-water haskeller. :) |
| 14:23:36 | <Uniaika> | juri_: you mean senior developer? |
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| 14:24:33 | <merijn> | juri_: On the one hand, yes. But on the other hand, building an industry on the expectation of people doing work stuff in their spare time is toxic as hell and it needs to die... |
| 14:24:39 | <juri_> | We've been having trouble, because our profile demands medium-level haskeller / medium level operations engineer. |
| 14:24:52 | <aldum> | what merijn says |
| 14:24:58 | <aldum> | we get why it's great to look at |
| 14:25:01 | <merijn> | Like, sure it's convenient |
| 14:25:07 | <juri_> | I disagree. |
| 14:25:16 | <aldum> | but also, the expectation that you do it in your spare time as well, and publish it... |
| 14:25:32 | <merijn> | But the fact that it's convenient for industry is meaningless if it builds a generation of people thinking "working for free" is somehow normal |
| 14:25:43 | <knu54> | Is it possible to write a function which returns the constraint of it's argument? e.g.: foo 4 = Proxy :: Proxy [Num] |
| 14:25:54 | <juri_> | merijn: I've been "working for free" for 20 years now. |
| 14:26:04 | <knu54> | (I guesstimate the answer is no) |
| 14:26:05 | <merijn> | knu54: You want SomeNat, probably? |
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| 14:26:32 | <knu54> | mirijn: no, I want to access the Constraints |
| 14:26:39 | <knu54> | > :t 4 |
| 14:26:41 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘:’ |
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| 14:27:02 | <knu54> | foo (Num a => a) --> Num |
| 14:27:07 | <merijn> | juri_: Therefore it's normal? |
| 14:27:09 | <knu54> | but on the termlevel |
| 14:27:41 | <merijn> | I mean, child labour used to be normal too (and still is in many parts of the world), but we all decided *that* was toxic BS too :) |
| 14:27:50 | <aldum> | okay, that's different |
| 14:27:54 | <juri_> | merijn: therefore, it shows someone who is either good enough at $dayjob to publish what they do, or someone who is interested enough in tech to do it other than just at work. |
| 14:28:07 | <aldum> | child labour exists because on low levels of wealth, you need it |
| 14:28:22 | <juri_> | I'm in tech. it just happens that i get paid for it. |
| 14:28:26 | <aldum> | it's a luxury to have people not working for the first 20 years of their life |
| 14:29:00 | <aldum> | getting back to the topic: I thought the rockstar culture was out |
| 14:29:03 | <aldum> | but apparently not |
| 14:29:13 | <merijn> | juri_: Not every is in the luxury position of getting paid to work on open source stuff, and expecting people to write open source in their spare time is bad. |
| 14:29:46 | <juri_> | merijn: believe what you want. i like people who are interested in the field. |
| 14:29:50 | <merijn> | Like, after an 8 hour day of coding I got better shit to do than "more coding", despite *wanting* to program more, and I don't even have kids yet |
| 14:29:53 | <juri_> | not just mercinaries. |
| 14:30:08 | <merijn> | juri_: I can see why you might have trouble hiring :p |
| 14:30:10 | <juri_> | after an 8 hour day of coding, i spend 4 hours coding. every day. |
| 14:30:17 | <aldum> | everybody wants to hire people who have n+2 years of experience in every technology (n being the years it existed), and goes to conferences to hold talks |
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| 14:30:59 | <juri_> | merijn: you might be right. we have a high bar. we want to see your work previously. |
| 14:31:18 | <juri_> | I don't think insisting on a portfolio is insane. plenty of professions require that. |
| 14:31:20 | <merijn> | juri_: I've got friends, family and hobbies. And maybe if we encouraged more of that in tech we would spend less time building creepy surveillance-capitalist dystopias >.> |
| 14:31:41 | <merijn> | Anyway, drifting slightly off Haskell :p |
| 14:31:59 | <juri_> | true. we can take it to offtopic if you want to yell at me. :D |
| 14:32:04 | <aldum> | I am interested, but that doesn't necessarily translate to github |
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| 14:33:30 | <aldum> | I'm not saying your case is invalid, but it seems _everyone_ expects it these days |
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| 14:34:15 | <aldum> | and I can't be assed to do a yet another todo app just so I have it on github |
| 14:34:19 | <juri_> | yeah. that's a problem. |
| 14:35:02 | <juri_> | I remember the same problem at the start of my career. and it put me in a very dubious (could write a book about it) place. |
| 14:35:08 | <merijn> | aldum: I mean, I fit the profile and portfolio lots of those tech companies are looking for, but increasingly I'd rather pass |
| 14:35:09 | <aldum> | anyway, sorry for venting out my jobsearch frustrations here |
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| 14:36:06 | <juri_> | merijn: good on you. that's what we're really missing in our industry: people willing to stand for what they believe in. |
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| 14:41:57 | <jollygood2> | is using System.IO.Temp recommended way for generating temporary files in a cross-platform way? |
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| 14:43:26 | <poscat> | Hi, are there any aeson maintainers here that would like to review my pull request? :) |
| 14:43:35 | <poscat> | The PR: https://github.com/haskell/aeson/pull/828 |
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| 15:10:44 | <gwern> | so are you guys aware someone is just mass-deleting the haskell wiki https://wiki.haskell.org/Special:Contributions/Tomjaguarpaw ? |
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| 15:13:25 | <gwern> | unless I'm missing somewhere that this was officially decreed acceptable I'm going to block this tomjaguarpaw dude and rollback all his edits because omgwtf |
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| 15:13:52 | <gwern> | did I miss it? was it decided somewhere to just delete anything over N years on hawiki? |
| 15:14:40 | <gwern> | because on every wiki I've ever been on, 'mass blanking of pages without discussion' == vandalism |
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| 15:18:59 | <merijn> | I mean, the wiki has tons of stuff that arguably should be deleted, but this is overdoing it |
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| 15:19:50 | <merijn> | This is like the "stale bot" approach to tickets >.> Just nuke everything old and hope people recreate relevant things |
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| 15:21:42 | <gwern> | yes, well, I've blocked him and rolled back all his deletions. *maybe* he can have his account back when he shows he has understood what catastrophically bad judgment he has shown |
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| 15:22:05 | <gwern> | just checking a few instances, he's plain wrong. a lot of the xmonad stuff he deleted is not 'outdated', because xmonad is stable |
| 15:22:26 | <gwern> | and if he wants to add obsolete markers, he should be using a template, not dumping in html |
| 15:22:49 | <Athas> | It is apparently intentional: https://wiki.haskell.org/User:Tomjaguarpaw |
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| 15:23:42 | <gwern> | yes, that's why I was asking. i'm not in the loop on wiki matters and I was wondering if it had in fact been decided somewhere. but his contributions don't include any discussion or policy pages I can see, and no one here thus far seems to have any idea about such a thing, so he's just doing it unilaterally, it looks like |
| 15:23:54 | <merijn> | Athas: Except he's nuking discussions/joke page, etc. too |
| 15:24:04 | <merijn> | Athas: Rather than checking if it's actually documentation |
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| 15:26:12 | <Athas> | Tom Ellis is a pretty active Haskell community member, so this must have been discussed somewhere. It's completely out of left field... |
| 15:26:12 | <fendor> | gwern, yeah Uniaika and tomjaguarpaw want to clean up the wiki |
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| 15:26:52 | <gwern> | this seems to be closer to 'ethnic cleansing' than 'cleaning up'... |
| 15:27:00 | <Uniaika> | hi |
| 15:27:09 | <DigitalKiwi> | rm -rf Uniaika |
| 15:27:17 | <Uniaika> | gwern: yes, this is official Haskell Docs Task Force for the Foundation |
| 15:27:39 | <Uniaika> | gwern: I'm also surprised that it was noticed, considering the state of abandon of the wiki |
| 15:27:55 | ← | elisa70 parts (~elisa70@93-34-143-64.ip50.fastwebnet.it) () |
| 15:28:07 | <gwern> | Uniaika: I still monitor the xmonad pages because they are still useful, so I kinda noticed |
| 15:28:13 | <Uniaika> | gwern: although, some stuff should not live in the wiki, like the XMonad stuff or the CPS article which is entirely in romanian |
| 15:28:13 | <DigitalKiwi> | do you got a badge to go with that alphabet soup |
| 15:28:29 | <Uniaika> | gwern: My position is that the XMonad project should host their own docs |
| 15:28:46 | <Uniaika> | especially since we might **very much** switch platforms on the wiki |
| 15:28:48 | <Uniaika> | *fr |
| 15:28:49 | <gwern> | Uniaika: that's a silly position but you are entitled to have opinions |
| 15:28:50 | <Uniaika> | *for |
| 15:28:51 | <Uniaika> | damnit |
| 15:29:11 | <Uniaika> | gwern: The state of the Haskell wiki is extremely dire |
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| 15:29:46 | <gwern> | perhaps, but mass-deleting smacks more of OCD compulsiveness than any genuine thoughtful attempt to improve the wiki |
| 15:29:59 | <Uniaika> | gwern: moreover, they're not thrown into oblivion, they still live in the wiki history |
| 15:30:11 | <gwern> | how comforting |
| 15:30:22 | <Uniaika> | gwern: the "genuine attempts to improve the wiki" have all failed for around ten years |
| 15:30:28 | <Athas> | ...why is there an article on CPS in Romanian? |
| 15:30:34 | <Uniaika> | Athas: no, the real question is |
| 15:30:42 | <gwern> | Athas: because people speak romanian? it's a real language. romanians are human too. |
| 15:30:45 | <Uniaika> | Why is the CPS article is in Romanian |
| 15:30:47 | <merijn> | Athas: TAed got tired of explaining it to students? :p |
| 15:30:55 | <Uniaika> | on an otherwise english-speaking wiki |
| 15:31:11 | <Uniaika> | why is there no lang-ro category/namespace |
| 15:31:16 | <Uniaika> | because the wiki maintainers are all burnt-out |
| 15:31:32 | <gwern> | perhaps because people are spending more time deleting stuff than fixing it, and seem to have an attitude of 'and ahhh helped!' |
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| 15:32:22 | <Uniaika> | is that really the case? |
| 15:32:53 | <gwern> | I only see you defending the mass-deletions, and not fixing anything. so, seems so. |
| 15:33:01 | <Athas> | Uniaika: where has this been discussed? I think I'm in favour of significant cleansing of the wiki, but now I'm curious about what other plans might exist for it (e.g. what a new platform might be). |
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| 15:33:16 | <merijn> | I think this conversation has a...unnecessarily adversarial tone |
| 15:33:23 | <gwern> | merijn: GEE I WONDER WHY |
| 15:33:46 | <Uniaika> | https://wiki.haskell.org/Trabalhos |
| 15:33:47 | <geekosaur> | I think unexpted mass deletion has an adversarial tone |
| 15:33:48 | <Uniaika> | what the fuck |
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| 15:34:05 | <merijn> | Uniaika: I do think blanking out pages without replacing them isn't great and just contributing to more internet linkrot than already exists |
| 15:34:14 | <gwern> | if you don't want an adversarial tone, maybe don't start out by quietly deleting 120+ pages |
| 15:34:31 | <Uniaika> | gwern: but yes I didn't think tomjaguarpaw would have started without advertising his work first |
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| 15:34:47 | <gwern> | Uniaika: the lack of advertisement is only the very beginning of the issues here |
| 15:34:52 | <merijn> | Uniaika: I think "deleting romanian CPS article" vs "replacing romanian CPS article with an english version" has different optics (to use a stupid word) |
| 15:35:18 | <Uniaika> | tomjaguarpaw: ping² |
| 15:35:21 | <merijn> | geekosaur: Sure |
| 15:35:36 | <Uniaika> | geekosaur: yup |
| 15:35:53 | <shapr> | o hi gwern, long time no see |
| 15:35:55 | <merijn> | geekosaur: My point is, that angry name calling isn't going to lead to a more productive approach |
| 15:36:10 | shapr | reads the history |
| 15:36:13 | <merijn> | well, I guess there was no name calling, but you get what I mean |
| 15:36:16 | <gwern> | shapr: yeah, I usually only show up in haskell circles when something has gone seriously wrong. I have lots of other stuff to do |
| 15:37:13 | <shapr> | gwern: fair enough, nice to see you in realtime again |
| 15:37:36 | <Uniaika> | Athas: This has been discussed by the docs task force this morning, and I didn't think tom would start removing stuff right away, because I also wanted some input from the other members of the HF board |
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| 15:38:45 | <Uniaika> | Alright I sent tom an email |
| 15:38:46 | <gwern> | you seem to be under a misapprehension that tom's removals were just fine, and it's merely a matter of announcing it more politely |
| 15:38:53 | <Uniaika> | no it's not my point |
| 15:39:07 | <Uniaika> | but I'm also dealing with IRL stuff so I can't quite explain my point proplerly |
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| 15:39:43 | <Uniaika> | Tom should have talked publicly about what he wanted to do, get more feedback, discuss with stakeholders (like the XMonad people about the XMonad article), and then suggest articles for deletion |
| 15:39:55 | <gwern> | I object to this from start to finish. the idea of mass purging and kicking out small projects is bad. you haven't *remotely* consulted with past and current hawiki editors (who wrote the stuff you are so cavalierly talking about purging). you haven't justified the benefits to the community. your remedy of deletion is about the worst possible, and the selection of deletions was *extremely* poor. |
| 15:40:41 | <shapr> | I was hawiki maintainer for a bunch of years, but I'm not sure who was after me. |
| 15:41:02 | <tomjaguarpaw> | Hey folks, I got far too carried away |
| 15:41:24 | <shapr> | I think the last change from moinmoin to mediawiki involved setting the previous wiki to read only for a few months before removal. |
| 15:41:34 | <shapr> | That gave people a chance to port over valued content. |
| 15:41:41 | <Uniaika> | could you please restore the XMonad articles and consult with the community before proceeding to mass-deletions, tomjaguarpaw? |
| 15:41:53 | <tomjaguarpaw> | gwern: Point well taken and thanks for acting as a safety net |
| 15:41:59 | <gwern> | Uniaika: I've already rolled back all his edits, I said |
| 15:42:04 | <tomjaguarpaw> | gwern: Thanks |
| 15:42:10 | <shapr> | I'm glad to see activity on the wiki, I'm now motivated to figure out how to login to my account again. |
| 15:42:16 | <Uniaika> | gwern: sorry, didn't read that bit |
| 15:42:27 | <Uniaika> | shapr: I wish I had an account… |
| 15:42:39 | <gwern> | ...you don't even have an account? |
| 15:42:44 | <shapr> | I don't remember how to get a new account, but I'll figure it out. |
| 15:42:46 | <Uniaika> | let me rephrase it |
| 15:43:01 | <DigitalKiwi> | is it like hackage and you have to get a person to make it lol |
| 15:43:02 | <Uniaika> | I wish someone had answered the various emails I sent because the account creation is locked due to spam |
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| 15:43:09 | <Uniaika> | there |
| 15:43:16 | <Uniaika> | that's closer to reality |
| 15:43:21 | <Uniaika> | 🙃 |
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| 15:43:48 | <shapr> | oh man, my user page on the wiki was last modified in 2012 |
| 15:43:54 | <DigitalKiwi> | wonder how many people don't fix it because they don't have account |
| 15:44:05 | <Uniaika> | s/don't/can't/ |
| 15:44:26 | <shapr> | Sounds like that's something to fix, maybe allow existing users to send invitations to new users? |
| 15:44:46 | <sm[m]> | wb gwern ! |
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| 15:45:20 | <Uniaika> | shapr: but who would be responsible for implementing that? :) |
| 15:45:29 | <texasmynsted> | merijn: "The solution is to use "cabal run" for that, tbh". That is what is doing before. I tried installing to target, but I now recall there is no "uninstall". I will go back to cabal run. |
| 15:45:42 | <merijn> | texasmynsted: I do have a life-hack for you |
| 15:45:57 | <texasmynsted> | uh oh. What is that? |
| 15:46:18 | <merijn> | texasmynsted: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/m0aAjCav |
| 15:46:36 | <merijn> | Replace with path to project file as appropriate |
| 15:47:02 | <merijn> | If you name that the same way as your executable you can use that shell script as if it's the real executable :) |
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| 15:47:41 | <merijn> | texasmynsted: It's what I use to test stuff I hack on, because typing "cabal run" is a hassle :p |
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| 15:47:50 | <shapr> | on the good side, I'm now logged into the wiki again |
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| 15:48:03 | <sm[m]> | it's easy to accidentally think the wiki is dead and useless, because most stakeholders (folks who worked on it, folks who still use it) aren't involved in the latest haskell chat. Sometimes a trial mass deletion is the only way to find out I guess. |
| 15:48:08 | <shapr> | Uniaika: first step is to figure out who can approve new users |
| 15:48:16 | <merijn> | texasmynsted: As a bonus, that works from anywhere on your path if the path to --project-file is absolute :) |
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| 15:48:53 | <Uniaika> | shapr: gonna be honest with you, I'm not doing that kind of manhunt for a bloody wiki account |
| 15:48:54 | <texasmynsted> | that is a nice idea |
| 15:48:59 | <merijn> | texasmynsted: Or you can do some extra shell-scripting and look for the project file relative to the script |
| 15:49:07 | <shapr> | Uniaika: fair enough, I'll see if I can figure it out |
| 15:49:17 | <Uniaika> | shapr: fantastic, thanks |
| 15:49:35 | <shapr> | gwern: do you happen to know who's the person responsible for the Haskell wiki these days? |
| 15:49:44 | <gwern> | no |
| 15:49:49 | <shapr> | ok, I'll ask around |
| 15:50:03 | <merijn> | texasmynsted: Taken to it's extreme: https://github.com/merijn/Belewitte/blob/master/cabal-run.sh :p |
| 15:50:25 | hackage | type-of-html 1.6.2.0 - High performance type driven html generation. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/type-of-html-1.6.2.0 (knupfer) |
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| 15:50:51 | <shapr> | Hm, I have wiki edits from 2006 - 2012 |
| 15:50:58 | <sm[m]> | shapr++, fixing management of the wiki seems like task 1 |
| 15:51:42 | <Uniaika> | 🙃 |
| 15:51:46 | <Uniaika> | why are we like this |
| 15:51:58 | <shapr> | Uniaika: people get distracted by life? |
| 15:52:06 | <texasmynsted> | nice |
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| 15:52:29 | <texasmynsted> | Could make that a shell function, and it would stay loaded in the shell all the time. |
| 15:52:54 | <Uniaika> | shapr: people can be distracted by life, I totally agree, but moderating a community platform with user-generated content is very demanding work |
| 15:53:01 | <shapr> | aha, people who can create accounts on the wiki include byorgey, gwern, davean, and some others. |
| 15:53:23 | <shapr> | Uniaika: oh I agree, I organized the haskell wiki for some years before the current incarnation, it was a bunch of work. |
| 15:53:46 | <texasmynsted> | the only way to "cabal uninstall " is to rm the installed file or symlink, right? |
| 15:53:53 | <DigitalKiwi> | merijn: now this is extreme https://gist.github.com/Kiwi/ffc08bffb15798dc4b1ec2a1c47c6191#file-program-cabal-hs |
| 15:54:09 | <shapr> | This info is available on https://wiki.haskell.org/index.php?title=Special%3AListUsers&username=&group=sysop&limit=50 |
| 15:54:58 | <sm[m]> | Uniaika: I love your work on improving docs. People put a lot of love and free time into that wiki content, so naturally deleting stuff needs to be done with some sensitivity |
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| 15:55:31 | <shapr> | How do I get into the docs effort? I had a bad experience with http-client this week and would like to prevent others from having that problem. |
| 15:56:13 | <DigitalKiwi> | don't use http-client, got it |
| 15:56:40 | <shapr> | DigitalKiwi: heh, my problem was about how to correctly pass cookies to subsequent requests, with expiration |
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| 15:57:14 | <Athas> | Was there a time when the Haskell wiki wasn't such a wasteland? |
| 15:57:23 | <shapr> | Shouldn't have taken me as long as it did, and I'd like to update the docs to remove confusing references. |
| 15:57:24 | <Athas> | I don't think I ever read it much myself. |
| 15:57:34 | <shapr> | Athas: certainly, the monad reader started as a wiki-only publication |
| 15:57:42 | <tdammers> | merijn: no, haven't seen that |
| 15:57:48 | <sm[m]> | sure.. wikis are always work in progress, but they are usually best when actively being edited |
| 15:57:57 | <sm[m]> | there is excellent content in there |
| 15:58:12 | <shapr> | Maybe I should put my http-client adventures on the wiki |
| 15:58:40 | <Uniaika> | shapr: See http-client's repo, check with the maintainer |
| 15:58:53 | <DigitalKiwi> | shapr: i just avoid anything by snoyberg and life is better |
| 15:58:54 | <shapr> | will do, thanks |
| 15:58:56 | <Uniaika> | oh, it's Snoyman |
| 15:58:57 | <sm[m]> | but for a wiki to continue being actively edited, it needs to be maintained in such a way that that is easy and attractive. (That got harder as spam increased) |
| 15:59:15 | <shapr> | DigitalKiwi: eh, there's lots of good stuff |
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| 15:59:48 | <DigitalKiwi> | o |
| 15:59:51 | <DigitalKiwi> | ooops |
| 15:59:52 | <shapr> | I was happy to see my haddock bug reports fixed in the GHC 9 |
| 16:00:11 | <Uniaika> | shapr: which one was it? |
| 16:00:30 | <DigitalKiwi> | i'm going to start sending snoyberg an invoice every time i waste time making a cabal file when people don't commit the cabal file from hpack |
| 16:00:51 | <Uniaika> | hahaha |
| 16:01:14 | <shapr> | Uniaika: big piles of invalid haddocks produced at work, here's an example https://github.com/haskell/haddock/issues/1174 |
| 16:01:43 | <shapr> | I reported six issues I couldn't find in the existing bug reports |
| 16:02:44 | <shapr> | We have about 300k lines of proprietary Haskell in our repo, and I was running our internal hoogle until parse errors broke too many things. |
| 16:03:11 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://gist.github.com/Kiwi/99db7d56d979cc60b514e417669b56ff super fun |
| 16:03:17 | <Uniaika> | ah yes, nitro12 took care of it |
| 16:03:21 | <Uniaika> | I recall |
| 16:03:41 | <DigitalKiwi> | shapr: last time i heard about http-client here lol https://github.com/snoyberg/http-client/issues/452 |
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| 16:05:00 | <shapr> | Maybe snoyberg maintains a whole bunch of open source repos and it gets tiring? |
| 16:05:18 | <shapr> | I think I have ... three users? for my software and I still don't have time to keep up with feature requests. |
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| 16:05:53 | <shapr> | would be nice to have newer http features in the Haskell clients |
| 16:05:59 | <DigitalKiwi> | we need more edwardk |
| 16:06:09 | <shapr> | as always |
| 16:06:17 | <DigitalKiwi> | let's clone him |
| 16:07:02 | <shapr> | I never did nail down the right way to pass along cookies to http-client requests, but I'd like to write some tests that cover cookie expiration and updating. |
| 16:07:15 | <shapr> | Actually, I'd like the http manager to handle that for me |
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| 16:16:14 | <merijn> | DigitalKiwi: Good news for you :p |
| 16:16:28 | <merijn> | DigitalKiwi: Even Snoyman now recommends committing cabal files :p |
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| 16:18:10 | <Athas> | I just dumped hpack entirely a year ago. I still think the .cabal format is bad for reasons that boil down to maintainer preferences, but I can live with it now that it has common stanzas. |
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| 16:19:03 | <Uniaika> | yeah common stanzas are a godsend |
| 16:19:32 | <Uniaika> | I went back to cabal with 'index-state' and 'with-compiler' in my cabal.project, and it does the job |
| 16:19:44 | <Uniaika> | doesn't support package sets yet but I don't need that for my personal stuff |
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| 16:20:52 | <Uniaika> | cross-posting here: Does anyone here have a head.hackage integration for GitHub Actions? |
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| 16:21:42 | <merijn> | Uniaika: Improving the GitHub Actions stuff generated by haskell-CI is on my to do list and I have a bunch of half fixed stuff atm, but eh, don't hold your breath for now :p |
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| 16:22:34 | <Uniaika> | merijn: it's okay, since it's for Haddock, we shall get the errors when the GHC test suite is ran |
| 16:22:42 | <Uniaika> | merijn: but great, thanks for letting me know that you're working on it |
| 16:23:06 | <merijn> | Uniaika: I have important higher priority jobs first, like "curl up in fetal position and cry" >.> |
| 16:23:08 | <Uniaika> | merijn: you should ping Taylor Fausak when it's ready, I'd love to see that kind of things in haskellweekly.news |
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| 16:23:15 | Uniaika | pats merijn |
| 16:23:17 | <Uniaika> | there, there |
| 16:23:34 | <Uniaika> | I would have taken that off your shoulders but my head can only support so many hats |
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| 16:23:59 | <merijn> | Uniaika: Also, the continent can only support so many yaks :p |
| 16:24:24 | <Uniaika> | :3 |
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| 16:28:40 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://mostlyabsurd.com/files/clone-edward |
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| 16:31:40 | DigitalKiwi | wonders if that should do submodules... |
| 16:32:06 | <merijn> | DigitalKiwi: Naah, because submodules are awful! |
| 16:32:28 | <DigitalKiwi> | but then it is not a full clone of edward |
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| 16:34:10 | <alfianguide> | Hi there, I'm new to haskell! |
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| 16:35:17 | <alfianguide> | How to get started with haskell? |
| 16:35:43 | <dmj`> | alfianguide: www.haskell.org |
| 16:35:51 | <DigitalKiwi> | first you learn agda; /s |
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| 16:36:26 | <dmj`> | alfianguide: https://github.com/bitemyapp/learnhaskell |
| 16:36:31 | <alfianguide> | cool. |
| 16:36:33 | <DigitalKiwi> | (this would result in infinite recursion) |
| 16:36:41 | <alfianguide> | ah really? |
| 16:37:02 | <DigitalKiwi> | http://learnyouanagda.liamoc.net/pages/introduction.html#step-one-learn-haskell |
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| 16:37:31 | <alfianguide> | But? I don't want to learn agda? |
| 16:37:45 | <DigitalKiwi> | thus the /s |
| 16:37:47 | <merijn> | alfianguide: DigitalKiwi was making a joke |
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| 16:38:24 | <DigitalKiwi> | you don't want to learn agda *yet* |
| 16:38:39 | <alfianguide> | I came from Rescript || Reason thought it's just like making major breaking changes on syntax, I wanna just learn haskell, which I think, stable? |
| 16:39:01 | <merijn> | alfianguide: Graham Hutton's "Programming in Haskell", Richard Bird's "Thinking Functionally with Haskell", and the "Haskell from First Principles" books are decent books for getting started |
| 16:39:04 | <sm[m]> | er.. yes ? |
| 16:39:12 | <DigitalKiwi> | i was about to recommend PiH |
| 16:39:17 | <sm[m]> | We're stabley |
| 16:39:26 | <DigitalKiwi> | and richard bird books are <3 |
| 16:40:14 | <DigitalKiwi> | wait do i have the new algorithms one or not D: |
| 16:40:41 | <alfianguide> | DigitalKiwi I found agda is scratch version of haskell |
| 16:40:52 | <sm[m]> | alfianguide: also |
| 16:40:52 | <sm[m]> | @where htac |
| 16:40:52 | <lambdabot> | "Haskell Tutorial and Cookbook" by Mark Watson in 2017-09-04 at <https://leanpub.com/haskell-cookbook> |
| 16:40:58 | <merijn> | alfianguide: Agda is an entirely different language :) |
| 16:41:09 | <alfianguide> | but it's use cabal? |
| 16:41:23 | <merijn> | alfianguide: The compiler for it is written in Haskell |
| 16:41:55 | <alfianguide> | ahh I see, compiler is separated with what language truly is. |
| 16:42:13 | <DigitalKiwi> | turns out haskell is good at making compilers other than ghc |
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| 16:42:34 | <shapr> | all the compilers |
| 16:42:48 | <DigitalKiwi> | pandoc is a compiler, pmw |
| 16:42:54 | hackage | rattletrap 9.4.0 - Parse and generate Rocket League replays. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/rattletrap-9.4.0 (fozworth) |
| 16:43:22 | <merijn> | alfianguide: Most compilers aren't written in the language they compile (at least, not at first) |
| 16:43:23 | <DigitalKiwi> | hakyll, compiler |
| 16:43:36 | <merijn> | DigitalKiwi: Everything's a compiler if you squint >.> |
| 16:43:41 | <DigitalKiwi> | :D |
| 16:44:00 | <Uniaika> | I mean |
| 16:44:03 | <Uniaika> | kinda-sorta |
| 16:44:11 | <DigitalKiwi> | (i was thinking it) |
| 16:44:48 | <DigitalKiwi> | compilers until you get to turtles |
| 16:45:47 | ← | Solid parts (~blyat@unaffiliated/solid-) ("WeeChat 3.0") |
| 16:45:49 | <DigitalKiwi> | 1980 - Alan Kay creates Smalltalk and invents the term "object oriented." When asked what that means he replies, "Smalltalk programs are just objects." When asked what objects are made of he replies, "objects." When asked again he says "look, it's all objects all the way down. Until you reach turtles." |
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| 16:52:25 | hackage | ghc-lib-parser 8.10.4.20210206 - The GHC API, decoupled from GHC versions https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-lib-parser-8.10.4.20210206 (shayne_fletcher) |
| 16:53:25 | hackage | ghc-lib 8.10.4.20210206 - The GHC API, decoupled from GHC versions https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-lib-8.10.4.20210206 (shayne_fletcher) |
| 16:53:42 | <pjb> | DigitalKiwi: but a few year later, he also said that it was an error to stress the objects, that smalltalk was actually all about the messages. |
| 16:54:25 | <DigitalKiwi> | so the messaging wasn't clear? |
| 16:54:45 | <sm[m]> | now he tries to stay on message |
| 16:55:21 | <tomjaguarpaw> | Did the community object to his message? |
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| 16:56:08 | <DigitalKiwi> | they looked at what the language offered and passed :( |
| 16:56:37 | <ij> | I think I've written a broken Ord instance. I want to order `data XY = (Int, Int) Int' by second field for Set.deleteFindMin, but eq by both fields. I cannot Set.delete one of the values. Here's the code: http://sprunge.us/NSW3fk |
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| 16:58:17 | <tomjaguarpaw> | ij: For one thing, you've written 'ax /= ax' |
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| 17:00:34 | <ij> | well that fixes it, but for the instance with more values in the actual code is still broken :/ |
| 17:01:03 | <tomjaguarpaw> | It seems unwise to write on Ord instance that's not a total order. What are you actually trying to do? |
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| 17:02:02 | <ij> | "The Ord class is used for totally ordered datatypes." |
| 17:02:05 | <ij> | whoops |
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| 17:04:51 | <ij> | take the element with the smallest score out of the Set and solve with that |
| 17:05:02 | <ij> | if I make it a total order, the priority is screwed |
| 17:05:54 | <ij> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pomaps-0.2.0.0/docs/Data-POSet.html |
| 17:06:42 | <DigitalKiwi> | unfortunate name |
| 17:07:23 | <merijn> | how so? |
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| 17:07:52 | <merijn> | poset is pretty standard terminology |
| 17:07:55 | <DigitalKiwi> | i'm sure it stands for Point Of Sale and not the other P of S |
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| 17:11:58 | <ij> | I'd heard "poset" before. "poset" also has a mention in wikipedia's "partially ordered set" |
| 17:15:45 | LKoen | is now known as ElkOwen |
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| 17:22:48 | <maralorn> | I think if you have heard a graduate level course from logic or theoretical cs, yep, that's totally standard terminology. (Although standard terminology is something completely different than good terminology.) ^^ |
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| 17:29:25 | <j2t_> | hi, i have this snippet https://pastebin.com/vJ8rvsf6. Somewhere there must be something inefficient here. Also, line 53 prints the result of the first query almost instantly after running, however, then there are 8 seconds nothing is getting printed and suddenlly the rest of prints execute at the same time. Maybe someone can see something and could point to the right direction. |
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| 17:29:40 | <Squarism> | what is required to omit your function from a view pattern like : case foo of ; (-> MyPattern) -> ... |
| 17:30:03 | <merijn> | Squarism: eh... |
| 17:30:13 | <merijn> | Squarism: View pattern without a function is just a pattern? |
| 17:30:36 | <merijn> | So, just don't have the ->? >.> |
| 17:31:03 | <Squarism> | i might have gotten it wrong, they were just talking about it https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/view-patterns |
| 17:31:20 | <Squarism> | never used them before so just experimenting atm |
| 17:31:46 | <merijn> | gitlab isn't loading for me |
| 17:32:07 | <merijn> | Squarism: Anyway "view pattern with an omitted function" sounds nonsensical to me |
| 17:32:48 | <Squarism> | hehe.. i can see your point. I just need to use them to get a feel what is possible. Ommitting the function name sounded less verbose to me |
| 17:32:51 | <merijn> | The entire point of view patterns is "apply a function before pattern matching" if you leave out the function you just have "pattern matching" |
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| 17:35:15 | <Squarism> | To me it sounds like the function is called you just leave out its name |
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| 17:38:25 | hackage | PyF 0.9.0.3 - Quasiquotations for a python like interpolated string formater https://hackage.haskell.org/package/PyF-0.9.0.3 (guibou) |
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| 17:39:10 | <j2t_> | sorry, i think i got it, haskell's [] are list, not vectors, so accessing elements with !! is O(n), right? |
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| 17:39:31 | <hololeap> | thanks tomsmeding, i had a feeling i was giving megaparsec too much responsibility :) |
| 17:39:55 | <merijn> | j2t_: Correct |
| 17:40:09 | <j2t_> | and (!) from DAta |
| 17:40:15 | <merijn> | j2t_: If you want random access and, well, vectors you want |
| 17:40:17 | <merijn> | @hackage vector |
| 17:40:17 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector |
| 17:40:22 | <j2t_> | .Vector is O(1), right? |
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| 17:40:45 | <j2t_> | sorry, have hit enter in the middle of sentence :) |
| 17:40:55 | <j2t_> | thank you merijn! |
| 17:41:20 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: cheers :) |
| 17:41:29 | <merijn> | j2t_: Vector is as O(1) as C's arrays and C++'s std::vector (the actual O(1)-ness is debatable :p) |
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| 17:43:59 | <Liskni_si> | gwern: if the "xmonad people" decided to move their part of the wiki to github wiki, would you be against that? I feel like we may possibly get more contributions that way, although I'm not entirely sure |
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| 18:02:01 | <Liskni_si> | gwern: (should have said "to e.g. github wiki", as there are other options, like the reddit wiki, which is also somewhat likely to be active, as /r/xmonad is still very much alive) |
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| 18:06:33 | <gwern> | 'Paul Krugman has a new Substack' |
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| 18:08:59 | <aldum> | oh bog |
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| 18:11:46 | <aldum> | I guess NYT is not cool anymore? |
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| 18:12:48 | <jrp> | The Conor McBride paper Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right (pearl): dissecting data structures says in its abstract that "The source code for the paper is available online and compiles with recent extensions to the Glasgow Haskell Compiler." Has anyone got a link to that, please? |
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| 18:28:14 | <hololeap> | working with ByteStrings in megaparsec is a bit cumbersome. what alternatives do i have to writing `char . fromIntegral . ord` whenever i want to match an ASCII character? |
| 18:28:41 | <hololeap> | (or writing the character in hex... 0x30) |
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| 18:30:34 | <glguy> | You could define the once and then use the thing you defined |
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| 18:32:56 | <hololeap> | define the same helper function in every project? that makes me feel like i'm approaching something in the wrong way |
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| 18:33:45 | <hololeap> | should i be converting to/from Text if it's supposed to be text from a pipe or stdin? |
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| 18:34:45 | <cgadski> | I'm trying to remember the name of a definition, but I can only remember the definition itself! I wonder if anybody has seen this |
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| 18:35:39 | <cgadski> | definition: when X is a set, a ??? on X is a collection U of subsets of X so that whenever A and B are elements of X and A is a subset of B, A equals B |
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| 18:35:58 | <cgadski> | in other words, U has no non-trivial chains |
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| 18:36:17 | <cgadski> | this is, allegedly, some sort of "generalized graph-like structure" |
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| 18:36:40 | <cgadski> | oops: s/A and B are elements of X/A and B are elements of U |
| 18:36:49 | <hololeap> | almost sounds like a topology, but i'm not a math person |
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| 18:38:23 | <kw> | I'm getting a parse error on `import Codec.Binary.UTF8.Generic` right on the period before "UTF8". What stupid mistake am I making? |
| 18:39:05 | <koz_> | maerwald: Is ghcup gonna have 8.10.4 available? |
| 18:39:29 | <hololeap> | cgadski: or a poset? something about your definition seems off |
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| 18:39:47 | <cgadski> | I meant to ask this in ##math, sorry! |
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| 18:39:59 | <cgadski> | hololeap: yes, it's not a standard definition |
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| 18:40:14 | <hololeap> | how could A be a subset of B if they are both elements of X? |
| 18:40:45 | <cgadski> | A and B are elements of U. I made a typo there |
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| 18:43:36 | <hololeap> | cgadski: what was the answer? |
| 18:43:47 | <cgadski> | an antichain |
| 18:43:57 | <hololeap> | oh, ok. haven't heard of that one |
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| 18:52:24 | <kw> | Oh, somehow CPP was choking on it. |
| 18:52:36 | <kw> | Fun. |
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| 18:53:37 | <merijn> | That's because the universe frowns upon CPP :p |
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| 19:49:53 | <frankdmartinez> | 36 |
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| 19:52:44 | <frankdmartinez> | The tunes.org website (host site for the IRC logs) is down; can anyone point me in the direction of to whom would I report the outage in case they don’t know yet? |
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| 19:54:04 | <ski> | frankdmartinez : in the meantime, you can try |
| 19:54:08 | <ski> | @where ircbrowse |
| 19:54:08 | <lambdabot> | https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com |
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| 19:54:49 | <ski> | sm[m] : heh, i mentioned HTAC two or three times, recently |
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| 20:01:17 | <sm[m]> | ski: high five ! For years I'm the only one pushing it |
| 20:01:54 | <sm[m]> | It's really hard to break into the Haskell recommended book list :) |
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| 20:08:51 | <frankdmartinez> | ski: Awesome, thanks! |
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| 20:15:03 | <ski> | sm[m] : there was someone in #haskell-beginners, the other day, who sounded like the approach in the book would suit them. but not having read it, i couldn't really tell for sure, or recommend it especially |
| 20:15:15 | <ski> | (i did mention it, though) |
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| 20:17:13 | <sm[m]> | I have only skimmed it but I think it's very well written and fills a hole |
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| 20:19:44 | <ski> | the page said it contains a short tutorial to Haskell in the first or first two chapters. so i was wondering whether it was intended to be used in conjunction with something else, or meant to possibly be used stand-alone |
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| 20:21:59 | <sm[m]> | HTAC ? It's a standalone short book |
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| 20:22:56 | <sm[m]> | Fast paced, hands on, and reasonably up to date |
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| 20:25:14 | ski | nods |
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| 20:27:52 | <monochrom> | If I write an article (web page) on understanding (or misunderstanding) monads, is it too naughty to give it the title "monad comprehension"? :) |
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| 20:28:30 | <monochrom> | Actually it is more about misunderstandings and/or lack of understanding, so maybe "monad miscomprehension" or something. |
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| 20:31:07 | <monochrom> | It is also full of quiz questions, so how about "the IO test" which is like "the IQ test" but s/Q/O/ |
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| 20:32:56 | <ephemient> | is mprehension the dual of comprehension |
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| 20:33:38 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | I think you gotta explain the joke about IO test in parentheses. |
| 20:33:40 | <monochrom> | heh |
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| 20:33:55 | <monochrom> | Yeah I think "the IO test" doesn't work. |
| 20:34:09 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | like, (IO like IQ but IO, you see?) |
| 20:34:21 | <sm[m]> | monochromadic |
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| 20:40:50 | ski | . o O ( incomphrehension ) |
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| 21:11:12 | <shapr> | Probably a silly question, but what order are the Word8 values in a bytestring? Should I shift left or shift right if I want an Integer value from a cryptonite hash result? |
| 21:11:34 | <shapr> | I think I get the most significant bytes first, so I should shift left? |
| 21:13:19 | <shapr> | I'm revisiting code I wrote five years ago for http://codekata.com/kata/kata05-bloom-filters/ |
| 21:14:48 | <nshepperd> | -XMonadApprehensions |
| 21:14:58 | shapr | is suspicious |
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| 21:15:33 | <shapr> | nshepperd: the next day, I realize I don't understand the custom join lattice thing you said |
| 21:16:42 | <shapr> | oh maybe I do |
| 21:16:47 | <nshepperd> | i think hash digests are traditionally considered to be most significant bit first when interpreted as numbers |
| 21:17:57 | <hololeap> | would Data.Binary.decode work? |
| 21:18:19 | <nshepperd> | not like it makes any difference though, since there shouldn't be any statistically observable differences between each byte order |
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| 21:18:39 | <shapr> | nshepperd: yeah, that's a good point |
| 21:18:47 | <shapr> | hololeap: huh, that might be easier |
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| 21:19:26 | <hololeap> | i literally meant that as a question. i don't know if there is some standard of endianness between binary and cyrptonite |
| 21:20:12 | <shapr> | right now my code is super cheesy https://github.com/shapr/bloohm/blob/main/src/Bloohm.hs#L38 |
| 21:20:17 | <shapr> | but hey, I get an Integer ! |
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| 21:21:05 | <shapr> | next I do a quick survey of bitvector libraries, since I'll need to map this onto the 32 RGB LEDs on this board. |
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| 21:21:41 | <ephemient> | message digests are typically emitted low-order byte first, afaik |
| 21:22:06 | <shapr> | didn't know that |
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| 21:22:15 | <hololeap> | shapr after reading a bit about the problem, i would think that Data.Hashable would be more suitable |
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| 21:22:38 | <monochrom> | hololeap: Data.Binary.decode for Integer uses a very specific format that random bytestrings are unlikely to conform in the first place. |
| 21:22:55 | <monochrom> | Generally, Data.Binary.decode for most standard types. |
| 21:23:21 | <shapr> | hololeap: Hashable looks like a much better approach, thanks! |
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| 21:26:30 | <shapr> | Does anyone have a recommended bit vector library? I was previously using bv, but it hasn't been updated in a while. |
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| 21:30:17 | <shapr> | Hm, I can just use Data.Bits on an Int32 ? |
| 21:30:20 | shapr | tries |
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| 21:39:49 | <koz_> | shapr: You can do that. However, I think http://hackage.haskell.org/package/bitvec is what you want. |
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| 21:41:47 | <shapr> | koz_: thanks! |
| 21:42:38 | <shapr> | I've been pairing on this today with a Python coder. They were really impressed with the help I get from haskell-language-server. |
| 21:43:07 | <hololeap> | shapr: you also might be interested in the BinaryLiterals extension |
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| 21:43:32 | shapr | asks the internet about BinaryLiterals |
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| 21:43:56 | <shapr> | neato! |
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| 21:44:05 | <hololeap> | % :set -XBinaryLiterals |
| 21:44:06 | <yahb> | hololeap: |
| 21:44:12 | <hololeap> | % 0b00110011 |
| 21:44:13 | <yahb> | hololeap: 51 |
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| 21:45:50 | <monochrom> | BinaryLiterals and Area 51... |
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| 21:48:02 | <hololeap> | maybe 00110011 is the code to open their hangar bay |
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| 21:51:46 | <pjb> | (format nil "~B ~B" 51 42) #| --> "110011 101010" |# |
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| 22:22:50 | <ezrakilty> | Does anyone know what's the state of the art for CI testing with GHC 9.0.1? |
| 22:23:12 | <ezrakilty> | I've been using hvr's repository of ghc packages here, https://launchpad.net/~hvr/+archive/ubuntu/ghc/+index?batch=75 but it hasn't been updated with 9.0.1 yet. |
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| 22:28:55 | <sm[m]> | FOSDEM schedule tomorrow: https://fosdem.org/2021/schedule/day/sunday/ |
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| 22:36:26 | <sm[m]> | aha, something haskell related. https://fosdem.org/2021/schedule/event/ttddatascience/ |
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| 22:38:13 | <MrMuffles[m]> | Hey sorry for the 101 philosophy - how do we know that the primitive recursive functions represent all non-halting functions? |
| 22:38:34 | <koz_> | Nope. |
| 22:38:46 | <koz_> | The Ackermann function is definitely halting, but not PR. |
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| 22:40:35 | <sm[m]> | and here's the video-with-chat link for it: https://chat.fosdem.org/#/room/#docs:fosdem.org . Holy mackerel, video embedded in matrix |
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| 22:42:08 | <slack1256> | koz_: Do you have at hand a quick argument on why is the ackermann function a halting function? |
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| 22:42:34 | <koz_> | slack1256: You could do it by induction I guess, but I'm lazy. |
| 22:43:06 | <koz_> | Have a look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackermann_function#Definition_and_properties |
| 22:43:23 | <koz_> | There's a paragraph draling with its termination which could be seen as a quick argument on its haltingness. |
| 22:43:28 | <koz_> | s/draling/dealing/ |
| 22:43:37 | <slack1256> | got it, thanks koz_ |
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| 22:46:39 | <koz_> | slack1256: No problem. |
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| 22:53:28 | <koz_> | Also MrMuffles[m] - I misread. Being PR means being halting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_recursive_function |
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| 23:47:03 | <koz_> | Are Hackage packages (Hackages?) no longer announced? |
| 23:48:46 | <monochrom> | maybe the bot is just away for a bit |
| 23:49:26 | <slack1256> | I will upload my package later then, I only do it for the announcement. |
| 23:49:37 | <monochrom> | hahaha |
| 23:50:02 | <zebrag> | There are only two possible solutions for `alpha :: Maybe a -> [a]`? |
| 23:50:33 | <zebrag> | Would that be correct? |
| 23:50:47 | <slack1256> | I can think of infinite implementations for that type signature. |
| 23:51:03 | <ephemient> | @djinn Maybe a -> [a] |
| 23:51:03 | <lambdabot> | Error: Undefined type [] |
| 23:51:12 | <slack1256> | Depending on how many times I repeat the `a` on the list on the `Just` case. |
| 23:51:18 | <ephemient> | oh right that's not one of the builtins it recognizes :-/ |
| 23:51:18 | <zebrag> | (reading category theory for programmers, chapter on natural transformations) |
| 23:51:33 | <ski> | koz_,slack1256 : last announcement was a little over five hours ago only |
| 23:51:54 | <zebrag> | slack1256: right |
| 23:51:55 | <koz_> | ski: Ah, maybe I just haven't waited long enough for the package index to update. |
| 23:52:52 | <zebrag> | slack1256: that infinity would make all of them, right? |
| 23:53:09 | <ski> | zebrag : however, `map f (alpha mx)' will be equal to `alpha (fmap f ma)', due to parametricity |
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| 23:53:37 | <zebrag> | ski: yes, i'm only trying to count them |
| 23:53:53 | <ski> | there's infinitely many, as mentioned |
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| 23:55:16 | <slack1256> | zebrag: you can also produce a infinite list via the equation `Just a = repeat a`. But you also can repeat until certain length via `Just a = take n (repeat a)`. |
| 23:56:03 | <slack1256> | Categorically, there are many "natural transformations" between `Maybe` and `[]`. |
| 23:56:30 | <ski> | sounds like there'd be a bijection with the generic convergent sequence |
| 23:57:33 | <zebrag> | slack1256, ski: thanks for the answer; I'll keep reading |
| 23:58:00 | <ski> | slack1256 : aka `replicate' :) |
| 23:58:41 | <ski> | at some point, people were playing around a little with the idea of a "natural transformation" type class |
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| 23:59:19 | <monochrom> | I can understand a natural transformation type, but not a type class. |
| 23:59:32 | <monochrom> | type NT f g = forall a. f a -> g a |
| 23:59:41 | <ski> | but then people realized that there'd probably not be much point to such a type class, since in general there's many natural transformations, with no obvious choice of a particular one that ought to be picked out and blessed by such a type class |
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| 23:59:46 | <monochrom> | or newtype if wanted |
All times are in UTC on 2021-02-06.