Logs on 2021-02-09 (freenode/#haskell)
| 00:00:16 | → | vicfred joins (~vicfred@unaffiliated/vicfred) |
| 00:00:26 | <ski> | @ghc |
| 00:00:26 | <lambdabot> | This is very gruesome indeed |
| 00:01:06 | <Axman6> | is that just comments from the GHC source? |
| 00:01:11 | <koz_> | For http://hackage.haskell.org/package/ring-buffers-0.2/docs/RingBuffers-Lifted.html, if I append to a full RingBuffer, what happens? |
| 00:01:18 | <koz_> | Does it block, ignore it, some other thing? |
| 00:01:30 | <ski> | Axman6 : error messages, at least some of them |
| 00:01:41 | <ski> | (or parts of error messages, possibly) |
| 00:01:48 | <ski> | @ghc |
| 00:01:48 | <lambdabot> | deadlock: main thread blocked in a strange way |
| 00:01:54 | → | dumptruckman joins (dumptruckm@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe6e:2cfd) |
| 00:02:15 | × | nineonine quits (~nineonine@50.216.62.2) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 00:02:40 | <Axman6> | koz_: looks like it overwrites to me |
| 00:02:46 | → | nineonine joins (~nineonine@50.216.62.2) |
| 00:03:12 | <Axman6> | append calls write then advance |
| 00:03:14 | → | tunzal joins (uid486487@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jhuojzcxmrmtbbbo) |
| 00:03:22 | <tunzal> | okay boys and girls please sit down and listen! my name is steve balag and im your math teacher for today. okay, who can tell me what 2+3 is? right, its 5, fucking 5, oh god i hate this fucking number i could fuck it all day. its like im counting to five until i get my hate orgasm because i hate the fucking fucker number 5 so much. i could smash your face with the number 5 all day. i wish i would be able to masturbate |
| 00:03:22 | <tunzal> | 5 times at once...but thats a different topic. ok its time for pause, kids, i see you back in 15 minutes and then we will talk about the number 5 and what you like and not. |
| 00:03:29 | ChanServ | sets mode +q *!*@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jhuojzcxmrmtbbbo |
| 00:04:08 | <Squarism> | quite often (always?) the type inference machinery locks a function, wo a signature, to types of first invocation. Can you make it more smart - ie detect free parameters? |
| 00:04:14 | <koz_> | Hmm, perhaps that's not what I'm after then. |
| 00:04:49 | <koz_> | I basically need a fixed-size deque which blocks if full or empty on appropriate operations. |
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| 00:05:47 | × | RusAlex quits (~Chel@unaffiliated/rusalex) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 00:06:06 | <koz_> | Do I want a bounded Chan of some kind then? |
| 00:06:28 | <koz_> | Also, can we kill the spammer? |
| 00:06:30 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) |
| 00:06:39 | <Axman6> | pretty sure that exists, and would work (though beibng backed by an array is kind of nice) |
| 00:06:39 | <koz_> | I'm getting endless PMs. |
| 00:06:47 | <koz_> | Axman6: Performance is secondary. |
| 00:06:53 | <Axman6> | never! |
| 00:07:04 | <koz_> | Axman6: Any good options for me that you know of? |
| 00:07:11 | → | RusAlex joins (~Chel@unaffiliated/rusalex) |
| 00:07:18 | <sm[m]> | @ops |
| 00:07:18 | <lambdabot> | Maybe you meant: pl oeis docs |
| 00:07:44 | <sm[m]> | @where ops ? |
| 00:07:44 | <lambdabot> | byorgey Cale conal copumpkin dcoutts dibblego dolio edwardk geekosaur glguy jmcarthur johnw mniip monochrom quicksilver shachaf shapr ski |
| 00:07:48 | × | deviantfero quits (~deviantfe@190.150.27.58) (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) |
| 00:08:02 | <Axman6> | The number of those names which are no longer present in thic hannel makes me sad |
| 00:08:10 | <jess> | whats going on |
| 00:08:12 | <Axman6> | this channel*\ |
| 00:08:30 | × | tunzal quits (uid486487@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jhuojzcxmrmtbbbo) (K-Lined) |
| 00:08:34 | ChanServ | sets mode +o dibblego |
| 00:08:42 | ChanServ | sets mode -o dibblego |
| 00:09:00 | edwardk | looks up |
| 00:09:03 | <edwardk> | realizes they left |
| 00:09:07 | edwardk | looks down |
| 00:09:14 | × | bennofs_ quits (~quassel@dslb-094-222-059-121.094.222.pools.vodafone-ip.de) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 00:09:19 | <edwardk> | we should do a pass to add more ops |
| 00:09:21 | <Axman6> | Thank you for your service |
| 00:09:24 | <koz_> | Yep! |
| 00:09:32 | <koz_> | Axman6: I think TBQueue works for what I need. |
| 00:09:34 | <koz_> | Thanks anyway. |
| 00:09:50 | <Axman6> | sounds like the right name |
| 00:09:53 | → | colpea joins (uid486488@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-scyvzqsocksscpsy) |
| 00:09:56 | <colpea> | okay boys and girls please sit down and listen! my name is steve balag and im your math teacher for today. okay, who can tell me what 2+3 is? right, its 5, fucking 5, oh god i hate this fucking number i could fuck it all day. its like im counting to five until i get my hate orgasm because i hate the fucking fucker number 5 so much. i could smash your face with the number 5 all day. i wish i would be able to masturbate |
| 00:09:56 | <colpea> | 5 times at once...but thats a different topic. ok its time for pause, kids, i see you back in 15 minutes and then we will talk about the number 5 and what you like and not. |
| 00:09:56 | <colpea> | okay boys and girls please sit down and listen! my name is steve balag and im your math teacher for today. okay, who can tell me what 2+3 is? right, its 5, fucking 5, oh god i hate this fucking number i could fuck it all day. its like im counting to five until i get my hate orgasm because i hate the fucking fucker number 5 so much. i could smash your face with the number 5 all day. i wish i would be able to masturbate |
| 00:09:56 | <colpea> | 5 times at once...but thats a different topic. ok its time for pause, kids, i see you back in 15 minutes and then we will talk about the number 5 and what you like and not. |
| 00:09:56 | <colpea> | okay boys and girls please sit down and listen! my name is steve balag and im your math teacher for today. okay, who can tell me what 2+3 is? right, its 5, fucking 5, oh god i hate this fucking number i could fuck it all day. its like im counting to five until i get my hate orgasm because i hate the fucking fucker number 5 so much. i could smash your face with the number 5 all day. i wish i would be able to masturbate |
| 00:09:56 | <colpea> | 5 times at once...but thats a different topic. ok its time for pause, kids, i see you back in 15 minutes and then we will talk about the number 5 and what you like and not. |
| 00:09:56 | <colpea> | okay boys and girls please sit down and listen! my name is steve balag and im your math teacher for today. okay, who can tell me what 2+3 is? right, its 5, fucking 5, oh god i hate this fucking number i could fuck it all day. its like im counting to five until i get my hate orgasm because i hate the fucking fucker number 5 so much. i could smash your face with the number 5 all day. i wish i would be able to masturbate |
| 00:09:56 | × | colpea quits (uid486488@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-scyvzqsocksscpsy) (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) |
| 00:10:09 | <koz_> | .... |
| 00:10:18 | <Axman6> | it's going to be one of those days... need to set +R? |
| 00:10:35 | ChanServ | sets mode +o glguy |
| 00:10:35 | glguy | sets mode +zq $~a |
| 00:11:17 | <glguy> | soft-warm: no, IRC doesn't have a way to remove the messages, we just watch them float away. There's no IRC history for them to get stuck in |
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| 00:12:04 | <clmg> | I'm looking for an affordable serverless graph database solution. What do people here use? |
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| 00:12:55 | glguy | sets mode -qq $~a *!?id4864??@gateway/web/irccloud.com/* |
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| 00:13:18 | <clmg> | dc'd but i'm back |
| 00:13:40 | <Axman6> | you picked a poor time to join, speak and leave I must say |
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| 00:13:56 | <Axman6> | we're getting a fair amount of spam in the channel at the moment |
| 00:14:12 | <Axman6> | clmg: can you elaborate more on what you're after? |
| 00:14:37 | <Axman6> | I feel like I saw an article recently on using SQLite as a graph database... |
| 00:14:40 | <clmg> | I need a graph database. Wondering what people use here. |
| 00:14:56 | <clmg> | What's the difference between using an SQL db as a graph and using a real graph db? |
| 00:15:09 | <Axman6> | no idea, I've never need a graph database |
| 00:15:31 | <sm[m]> | pretty much what you'd expect - one is purpose built but more exotic |
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| 00:16:03 | <clmg> | what are downsides to using the less exotic one? |
| 00:16:20 | <koz_> | clmg: Depending on what operations you want, they may be unavailable/inefficient. |
| 00:16:36 | <sm[m]> | are you asking for something haskell related ? |
| 00:16:41 | <Axman6> | your question really depends on what you want to do |
| 00:16:50 | <koz_> | I think a better line of enquiry (both for getting answers as such and answers from us specifically) is asking 'why do you need this?'. |
| 00:17:15 | <koz_> | 'i need X suggestions plz' almost never gets you anything good sans context. |
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| 00:18:21 | <Axman6> | You're essentially asking "What is the best car for driving on private roads". it's more specific than "what's the best car", but not enough to narrow down a helpful answer |
| 00:18:40 | <koz_> | Axman6: The answer is, of course, 'your own'. :P |
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| 00:19:04 | <lmw> | Hi everyone. |
| 00:19:05 | <Axman6> | no, the answer is _always_ "Someone else's" when it comes to what is the best car |
| 00:19:49 | <koz_> | I dunno, I don't covet my neighbours' cars. |
| 00:20:37 | <lmw> | If you mind me to post this :) -> https://devrant.com/rants/122207/i-used-haskell-today |
| 00:22:27 | <Axman6> | clmg: you might find https://dbdb.io useful |
| 00:23:02 | <Axman6> | probably won't include Haskell implementations but might point to some serverless software that has haskell bindings |
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| 00:25:07 | <lmw> | Hm, I'm a Haskell "idiot"... in what areas is Haskell used? And why? |
| 00:26:00 | <clmg> | Axman6, thanks this is super helpful! |
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| 00:26:37 | <dcoutts_> | lmw: that's actually a very nice book :-) |
| 00:26:42 | dcoutts_ | is now known as dcoutts |
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| 00:27:29 | <lmw> | dcoutts_: You know or have it? |
| 00:27:39 | <lmw> | * dcoutts |
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| 00:29:35 | <dcoutts> | RIP Paul Hudak |
| 00:30:00 | <lmw> | Who's that? |
| 00:30:14 | <dcoutts> | the book author |
| 00:30:33 | <lmw> | 01:27:29 <lmw> dcoutts_: You know or have it? |
| 00:30:36 | <lmw> | I mean the book. |
| 00:30:47 | <dcoutts> | I don't actually own a copy. |
| 00:31:07 | <lmw> | oh |
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| 00:33:54 | <dcoutts> | lmw: you'll not get a very helpful answer to what areas Haskell is used in, because it's used widely for so many things. It's not application specific at all. |
| 00:34:19 | <lmw> | Hm, okay. |
| 00:34:24 | <dcoutts> | Generally the answer is "Yes Haskell can do that", and more often than not "Yes Haskell is used for that". |
| 00:34:31 | <lmw> | I'll study the Wikipedia article for a while :P |
| 00:35:28 | <dcoutts> | The best answer I usually give for this kind of question is that it's best used for hard problems. That's when the language advantages show up the most. |
| 00:35:59 | <lmw> | Sounds like a nice "rescue" feature before throwing your computer out of the window :) |
| 00:36:09 | <dcoutts> | The advantages of sophisticated tools are much less clear for easy problems :-) |
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| 01:43:04 | <olligobber> | I wrote some magic functions... https://gist.github.com/olligobber/a2b48af361aa20d1751846924bb268c2 |
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| 01:52:07 | <monochrom> | Nice. |
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| 02:18:16 | <edwardk> | :t let magicIf t a f = f (a <$ guard t) in magicIf |
| 02:18:17 | <lambdabot> | Alternative f => Bool -> a -> (f a -> t) -> t |
| 02:18:27 | <edwardk> | i mean i guess that is a generalization, hrmm. |
| 02:18:32 | <edwardk> | :t let magicIf t a f = f (guard t *> Just a) in magicIf |
| 02:18:33 | <lambdabot> | Bool -> b -> (Maybe b -> t) -> t |
| 02:19:30 | <edwardk> | @pl \l i f -> f (i ++ [l]) |
| 02:19:30 | <lambdabot> | (flip id .) . flip (++) . return |
| 02:19:38 | <edwardk> | definitely not clearer ;) |
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| 02:26:37 | <olligobber> | \l i -> ($ i ++ [l]) |
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| 02:27:00 | <olligobber> | l and i are not good variable names to use together in hindsight |
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| 02:27:31 | <MarcelineVQ> | l is just an awful character in the first place |
| 02:27:33 | <ephemient> | also I'd first associate i with an element and l with a list, but that's not the case here |
| 02:27:34 | <MarcelineVQ> | l|I |
| 02:27:48 | <olligobber> | i is init, l is last, that was my idea... |
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| 02:28:53 | <olligobber> | @pl \x xs -> ($ xs ++ [x]) |
| 02:28:53 | <lambdabot> | (flip id .) . flip (++) . return |
| 02:28:58 | <olligobber> | oh |
| 02:29:21 | <koz_> | PVP question: Suppose I have 'foo :: [Bar] -> Baz' in version 1.2.3. I then change this to 'foo :: (Foldable f) => f Bar -> Baz'. Is this a major or minor version bump? |
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| 02:30:13 | <MarcelineVQ> | major |
| 02:31:33 | <koz_> | Thanks MarcelineVQ! |
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| 03:34:08 | finn_elija | is now known as Guest55219 |
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| 03:41:05 | <olligobber> | @pl \b x y -> if b then x else y |
| 03:41:05 | <lambdabot> | if' |
| 03:41:24 | <olligobber> | huh, hoogle is down |
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| 04:04:50 | <koala_man> | any thoughts on the best way to build macos binaries on linux? |
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| 05:05:11 | <dmj`> | koala_man: travis CI supports mac osx builds |
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| 05:11:50 | <dsal> | So does github... sometimes. |
| 05:11:59 | <koala_man> | dmj`: that's what I've been doing for the past several years, but now they're starting to charge for it and it's generally a pain because I can't build locally |
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| 05:13:53 | <dmj`> | koala_man: well maybe circle ci has it |
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| 05:17:27 | <koala_man> | I'm trying to avoid renting a zoo full of server and just build everything on x86_64 linux. so far I have armv6hf and x86_64 windows via emulation, and aarch64 via cross-compilation |
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| 05:18:26 | <koala_man> | optimally I'd add ppc64 and s390x but those are even harder to get hardware for |
| 05:24:43 | <dmj`> | koala_man: what do you need to target all these platforms for? |
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| 05:26:55 | <koala_man> | I mostly care about shellcheck's key platforms: window, linux and macos x86_64, and rpi, but if it's easy to add another arch then sure |
| 05:28:06 | <koala_man> | things were ok-ish while travisci did its thing, though it was pretty frustrating to try to debug builds and do releases. Now that they're pivoting I'm hoping to get rid of all these crazy platform deps |
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| 05:31:11 | <dmj`> | koala_man: oh! shellcheck is great btw, use it on every build at work. |
| 05:31:30 | <koala_man> | aww, so glad you're finding it useful! |
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| 05:33:48 | <dmj`> | koala_man: ya know, I bet if you made a nix derivation for shellcheck that had multiple platforms supported, you'd get some builds for free with hydra. I think you can target Darwin, the problem is that you need the XCode derivation, and I don't think that would exist on hydra ... but you can definitely cross compile to Windows. |
| 05:34:41 | <koala_man> | what's hydra? I'm getting weird google reuslts |
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| 05:36:44 | <dmj`> | koala_man: https://hydra.nixos.org/ its a giant build farm, it clones the nixpkgs repo (which has a bunch of haskell build recipes in it), then farms out the recipes to its workers and populates a binary cache that people can consume |
| 05:36:57 | <dibblego> | koala_man: it's a CI, with good nix support |
| 05:37:12 | <koala_man> | dibblego!! |
| 05:37:28 | <dibblego> | koala_man!!! |
| 05:38:00 | <dmj`> | koala_man: if shellcheck had a derivation with a hydra_build_inputs section, it would act like a download page. You'd probably want to statically link everything though (and Darwin doesn't support static linking afaik) |
| 05:39:01 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://github.com/adisbladis/macOS-Simple-KVM i use this to build for macos with nix distributed builds |
| 05:39:39 | <DigitalKiwi> | "distributed" ; you can can run locally or on a server |
| 05:40:40 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://gist.github.com/Kiwi/b1e8ac7d6540df1b9988864e0bc552db |
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| 05:43:02 | <koala_man> | I'll give these a go if I can't get a x86_64 linux build going in some way or another |
| 05:45:48 | <DigitalKiwi> | what do you mean |
| 05:46:17 | <DigitalKiwi> | like cross compiling or |
| 05:47:07 | <dmj`> | koala_man: are you on OSX ? |
| 05:48:02 | <koala_man> | I'm on x86_64 linux normally, and that's the also the most available target for travisci, circleci, and github |
| 05:49:05 | <koala_man> | I'd like to be able to build macos binaries without a macos machine |
| 05:49:15 | <DigitalKiwi> | that runs on nixos |
| 05:50:18 | <DigitalKiwi> | my macbook pro runs nixos which runs a vm of macos which runs a nix-daemon that i can compile software for by running one command from my nixos >.> |
| 05:50:30 | <DigitalKiwi> | *magic* |
| 05:50:55 | <DigitalKiwi> | works for aarch64-linux too |
| 05:51:32 | <koala_man> | could that conceivably run on non-macbooks and build macos binaries? |
| 05:51:38 | <DigitalKiwi> | yes |
| 05:51:50 | <DigitalKiwi> | i run it on digitalocean |
| 05:51:55 | <koala_man> | via a vm you say? |
| 05:51:59 | <DigitalKiwi> | yes |
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| 05:52:17 | <DigitalKiwi> | i run a vm of macos on a vm of nixos on digitalocean lol |
| 05:52:32 | <DigitalKiwi> | which was originally an ubuntu droplet |
| 05:52:53 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://github.com/elitak/nixos-infect |
| 05:53:10 | <dmj`> | hackintosh :) |
| 05:53:12 | <DigitalKiwi> | run that and *boom* your server is now running nixos |
| 05:53:53 | <dmj`> | koala_man: shellcheck is a pretty high profile project, maybe sponsors could pay the OSX build fees on travis CI ? |
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| 05:54:22 | <koala_man> | I'm fine with emulation but I'm not sure how much I can rely on copies of macos |
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| 05:55:56 | <DigitalKiwi> | copies? |
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| 05:56:19 | <koala_man> | licensing wise |
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| 05:56:44 | <DigitalKiwi> | it downloads it from apple |
| 05:56:56 | <dmj`> | ^ yea I'm not sure the Apple EULA allows building macOS binaries in a VM, not using Apple hardware |
| 05:58:04 | <DigitalKiwi> | yeah :( |
| 05:58:25 | <DigitalKiwi> | i won't tell them ;) |
| 05:59:26 | <koala_man> | maybe I'll cross-compile it all to javascript and run it with node since that appears to be the future |
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| 06:01:08 | <DigitalKiwi> | Plz don't |
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| 06:12:08 | <DigitalKiwi> | anyway don't tell apple but |
| 06:12:09 | <DigitalKiwi> | kiwi@mvp-nixos nixpkgs [master]$ nix-build . -A shellcheck --argstr system x86_64-darwin |
| 06:12:12 | <DigitalKiwi> | /nix/store/r1lk5kp9i1h8a0v43dclh0n82s8ah3yh-shellcheck-0.7.1-bin |
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| 06:13:38 | <DigitalKiwi> | kiwi@mvp-nixos nixpkgs [master]$ nix-build . -A shellcheck --argstr system aarch64-linux |
| 06:13:41 | <DigitalKiwi> | /nix/store/bzzskdy484d6f66skpgwcjb5q3rajw97-shellcheck-0.7.1-bin |
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| 06:13:52 | <DigitalKiwi> | kiwi@mvp-nixos nixpkgs [master]$ nix-build . -A shellcheck --argstr system x86_64-linux |
| 06:13:54 | <DigitalKiwi> | /nix/store/akvjh8jjpnvs3bpw72lx06j87q105r9p-shellcheck-0.7.1-bin |
| 06:14:43 | <koala_man> | nice |
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| 06:17:07 | <koz_> | Does anyone know how I can spell that I want the 'cabal-store' output inside a ${{ ... }} for a Github Actions config? |
| 06:17:22 | <koz_> | From here: https://github.com/haskell/actions/tree/main/setup#outputs |
| 06:19:30 | <koz_> | Never mind think I have it. |
| 06:19:31 | <DigitalKiwi> | koala_man: https://gist.github.com/Kiwi/d0b942867d63ea04cf94f8f68024a90b `nix-build-regular shellcheck` :D |
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| 10:25:12 | <ph88^> | is there something like a hashmap that supports lookup but is ordered ? |
| 10:25:55 | <Taneb> | Like Data.Mao? |
| 10:25:58 | <Taneb> | *Data.Map |
| 10:26:01 | <Taneb> | In containers |
| 10:26:18 | <Taneb> | What exactly do you mean by ordered, here? |
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| 10:28:39 | <ph88^> | that you get back the elements in an order when you go over them one by one |
| 10:29:21 | <ph88^> | and also that you can insert them in an order .. otherwise you still have no control |
| 10:29:39 | <ph88^> | push , append those kinds of functions |
| 10:29:47 | <ph88^> | but also with key lookup like hashmap |
| 10:30:38 | <lortabac> | @hackage ordered-containers |
| 10:30:38 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ordered-containers |
| 10:31:01 | <lortabac> | this? ^ |
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| 10:36:45 | <fendor> | ph88^, psqueues could also be interesting |
| 10:36:56 | <ph88^> | thanks |
| 10:37:08 | <fendor> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/psqueues |
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| 10:59:30 | <kuribas> | also http://hackage.haskell.org/package/insert-ordered-containers-0.2.3.1 |
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| 11:51:01 | <nshepperd2> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bimap can be used as a sort of priority search queue with a very general interface where everything is O(log n) |
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| 11:54:30 | <nshepperd2> | (with Bimap k (p, k) if you expect to get different keys with the same priority) |
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| 13:18:28 | <dminuoso> | Say I have a data type `data T = T Int Float String`, and some `data Sub = Sub Int Float`, now I could write a `Lens' T Sub`. Is there a way to obtain some primitive from which I can sort of do the opposite of `view`? |
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| 13:19:46 | <dminuoso> | The closest thing I found so far is `smash` from generic-lens, but that requires me to have an entire `T` already, Id rather be able to talk about "the whole with a hole" in a way that I can fill the hole with something. |
| 13:19:52 | <wz1000> | how do I write `fmap (view foo) . view bar` with lens? |
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| 13:21:24 | <dminuoso> | wz1000: `view (fmap foo . bar)` ? |
| 13:21:49 | <dminuoso> | or.. I guess you have to flip those around |
| 13:21:54 | <dminuoso> | so `view (bar . fmap foo)` |
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| 13:22:14 | <dminuoso> | or wait heh |
| 13:22:17 | <dminuoso> | nevermind me |
| 13:22:17 | <geekosaur> | or use & instead of .? |
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| 13:22:28 | <geekosaur> | oh, no, started with . |
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| 13:22:54 | <dminuoso> | wz1000: Which data type are you fmapping through? |
| 13:23:00 | <wz1000> | Maybe |
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| 13:23:08 | <dminuoso> | wz1000: Then you can use _Just |
| 13:23:23 | <dminuoso> | so `view (bar . _Just . foo)` |
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| 13:23:48 | <dminuoso> | Do note, that this is no longer a lens if you do this |
| 13:23:58 | <dminuoso> | It's a (affine) traversal now. |
| 13:24:35 | <wz1000> | that doesn't seem to work |
| 13:25:22 | <dminuoso> | % (1, Just ("foo", 2)) ^. _2 . _Just . _1 -- wz1000 |
| 13:25:23 | <yahb> | dminuoso: "foo" |
| 13:26:11 | <wz1000> | % (1, Nothing) ^. _2 . _Just . _1 |
| 13:26:11 | <yahb> | wz1000: ; <interactive>:121:1: error:; * Could not deduce (Field1 a0 a0 b b); from the context: (Monoid b, Field1 a a b b); bound by the inferred type for `it':; forall b a. (Monoid b, Field1 a a b b) => b; at <interactive>:121:1-31; The type variable `a0' is ambiguous; * In the ambiguity check for the inferred type for `it'; To defer the ambiguity check |
| 13:26:21 | <dminuoso> | Though note, that (^.) is a bit misbehaved here |
| 13:26:29 | <dminuoso> | % (1, Nothing :: Maybe (String, Int)) ^. _2 . _Just . _1 |
| 13:26:29 | <yahb> | dminuoso: "" |
| 13:26:31 | <dminuoso> | You probably want |
| 13:26:35 | <dminuoso> | % (1, Nothing :: Maybe (String, Int)) ^.. _2 . _Just . _1 |
| 13:26:35 | <yahb> | dminuoso: [] |
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| 13:26:47 | <dminuoso> | % (1, Just ("foo", 2)) ^.. _2 . _Just . _1 -- wz1000 |
| 13:26:48 | <yahb> | dminuoso: ["foo"] |
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| 13:27:05 | <wz1000> | I want a Maybe in the end |
| 13:27:10 | <dminuoso> | then use preview |
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| 13:27:33 | <dminuoso> | % (1, Just ("foo", 2)) ^? _2 . _Just . _1 -- wz1000 |
| 13:27:34 | <yahb> | dminuoso: Just "foo" |
| 13:27:38 | <wz1000> | thanks, that worked |
| 13:27:39 | <dminuoso> | % (1, Nothing :: Maybe (String, Int)) ^? _2 . _Just . _1 |
| 13:27:39 | <yahb> | dminuoso: Nothing |
| 13:28:15 | <dminuoso> | wz1000: Hence my statement, this is an (affine) traversal now. :) |
| 13:28:29 | <dminuoso> | Because its a prism composed with a lens |
| 13:28:52 | fendor_ | is now known as fendor |
| 13:30:33 | <dminuoso> | dolio: That reminds me, you were arguing that affine traversals were useless, right? |
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| 14:15:45 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: what's wrong with a manual written lens? |
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| 14:16:05 | <maralorn> | Is there a general way to get a getter over a functor. i.e. I have a (Lens' t a) can I get a getter (Functor f => Getter (f t) (f a)) out of that? |
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| 14:22:47 | <kuribas> | I don't think so. |
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| 14:23:53 | <kuribas> | but you have a Lens' ? |
| 14:23:59 | <kuribas> | a Lens' is a Getter... |
| 14:26:11 | <kuribas> | well, to (map (view l)) I suppose? |
| 14:26:24 | <kuribas> | :t \l -> to (map (view l)) |
| 14:26:25 | <lambdabot> | (Contravariant f, Profunctor p) => Getting b s b -> Optic' p f [s] [b] |
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| 14:27:40 | <kuribas> | :t \l -> to (fmap (view l)) |
| 14:27:41 | <lambdabot> | (Functor f1, Contravariant f2, Profunctor p) => Getting b s b -> Optic' p f2 (f1 s) (f1 b) |
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| 14:29:24 | <kuribas> | :t \l -> to (fmap (view l)) :: Functor f => Lens' t a -> Getter (f t) (f a) |
| 14:29:25 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 14:29:25 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match type ‘f3’ with ‘(->) (f2 a1)’ |
| 14:29:25 | <lambdabot> | ‘f3’ is a rigid type variable bound by |
| 14:29:55 | <kuribas> | hmmm |
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| 14:31:23 | <kuribas> | :t \l -> to (fmap (view l)) :: Functor f => Lens' t a -> Getting (f t) (f a) |
| 14:31:24 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 14:31:24 | <lambdabot> | • Expecting one more argument to ‘Getting (f t) (f a)’ |
| 14:31:24 | <lambdabot> | Expected a type, but ‘Getting (f t) (f a)’ has kind ‘* -> *’ |
| 14:31:48 | <kuribas> | :t \l -> to (fmap (view l)) :: Functor f => Lens' t a -> Getting r (f t) (f a) |
| 14:31:49 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 14:31:49 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match type ‘Const r1 (f1 t1)’ |
| 14:31:49 | <lambdabot> | with ‘f1 a1 -> Const r1 (f1 a1)’ |
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| 14:33:46 | <maralorn> | I think I found what I was looking for. |
| 14:33:51 | <ph88^> | does anyone know a good method to print haskell source code ? i would like to generate a bunch of code based on a json file |
| 14:33:59 | <ph88^> | pretty print * |
| 14:34:05 | <kuribas> | ph88^: template haskell |
| 14:34:06 | <maralorn> | :t mapping |
| 14:34:07 | <lambdabot> | (Profunctor p, Functor f1, Functor g, Functor f2) => AnIso s t a b -> p (f1 a) (f2 (g b)) -> p (f1 s) (f2 (g t)) |
| 14:34:14 | <dminuoso> | ph88^: Do you want to generate entire modules, or just code fragments? |
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| 14:34:45 | <ph88^> | dminuoso, entire modules i think |
| 14:34:53 | <dminuoso> | ph88^: haskell-src-exts then. |
| 14:34:56 | <dminuoso> | There aren't any other options. |
| 14:35:02 | <dminuoso> | Aside from manually pretty printing, of coruse. |
| 14:35:18 | <dminuoso> | ph88^: Also note, haskell-src-exts-simple and haskell-src-exts-qq as useful helper libraries. |
| 14:35:20 | <ph88^> | ah thanks :) |
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| 14:36:12 | <dminuoso> | Sadly, you cant neatly generate haddock documentation with this. :( |
| 14:36:21 | <dminuoso> | But oh well, it's a start. |
| 14:36:55 | <ph88^> | i heard ghc-lib is now better to use that haskell-src-exts what do you think dminuoso ? |
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| 14:37:54 | <dminuoso> | ph88^: For parsing, yes. For generating, no. |
| 14:38:03 | <ph88^> | but ok .. main point is that these libs seem to be the only option |
| 14:38:11 | <ph88^> | how come it doesn't generte ? |
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| 14:38:37 | <dminuoso> | ghc-lib is, as the name suggests, just API exposed by GHC itself. So it wasn't designed with ergonomics for code generation in mind. |
| 14:38:46 | <geekosaur> | why would it? ghc isn';t about generating haskell source |
| 14:38:57 | <geekosaur> | (it does do splices but those generate AST nodes, not source) |
| 14:38:57 | <ph88^> | do you know if i can write the haskell code as it would be generated first ... and then from there somehow get the expressions from haskell-src-exts that would generate them ? |
| 14:39:16 | <dminuoso> | ph88^: Yes. You can use haskell-src-exts-qq for exactly that. |
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| 14:39:26 | <dminuoso> | In fact, I use these quasiquoters even directly in source code |
| 14:39:28 | <ph88^> | super :) |
| 14:39:35 | <dminuoso> | They even allow splicing, making it very comfortable |
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| 14:39:40 | <ph88^> | what do you use them for ? |
| 14:39:48 | <ph88^> | generate modules ? |
| 14:40:03 | <ph88^> | do you have a simple example of haskell-src-exts-qq ? |
| 14:40:10 | <dminuoso> | There's a technical specification for a network protocol. So I use the above packages to generate serializers/deserializers from it |
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| 14:40:34 | <dminuoso> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/haskell-src-exts-qq-0.7/docs/Language-Haskell-Exts-QQ.html |
| 14:40:37 | <dminuoso> | Shows some simple examples |
| 14:41:14 | <dminuoso> | And since haskell-src-exts-simple is just pattern synonyms, these three packages fit together seamlessly. |
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| 14:41:51 | <ph88^> | what technical specification of network protocol ? |
| 14:42:03 | <dminuoso> | It's for a RADIUS implementation |
| 14:42:30 | <dminuoso> | It'll be released when I have something in a working and stable condition. :) |
| 14:42:49 | <ph88^> | you're into accounting ? |
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| 14:43:40 | <ph88^> | never heard about this, no idea what it is for |
| 14:43:47 | <dminuoso> | So in our company we use RADIUS in various spots, it's a commonly spoken protocol in networking gear, usually for authentication |
| 14:43:57 | <ph88^> | oh ok |
| 14:44:32 | <ph88^> | i would like to generate some api's from OpenAPI 3.0 |
| 14:44:34 | <dminuoso> | But we twist the usage. Rather than taking say freeRADIUS, we have custom written RADIUS servers. That allows us to programmatically control the interaction for blackbox devices |
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| 14:45:07 | <ph88^> | i saw there are already implementations for OpenAPI 2.0 and swagger 2 and then i could use a converter and safe myself the effort . but then i would also miss out on the fun :P |
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| 14:46:16 | <dminuoso> | One future use we have, is that ISC KEA DHCP allows deferring DHCP requests to RADIUS. So this would give us programmatic control how to answer DHCP requests, by writing a custom server that speaks RADIUS on one side, and then does whatever internally |
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| 14:46:58 | <dminuoso> | DHCP is something you definitely dont want to implement yourself, and existing implementations only work with static databases, with very poor programmatic interfaces |
| 14:47:21 | × | aggin quits (~ecm@103.88.87.30) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 14:48:11 | <dminuoso> | But since KEA has that RADIUS interface... all you now need is a programmable RADIUS server. And that |
| 14:48:12 | <maralorn> | Hm, I can write this code "lookupTasksM ^. mapping (mapping (mapping (mapping #description)))" the question is if I should.^^ |
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| 14:48:20 | <dminuoso> | is what we already have libraries for |
| 14:48:25 | <maralorn> | It’s really funny how I apply a lens here 4 functors deep. |
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| 14:49:06 | <dminuoso> | ph88^: So the RADIUS code genrator is just an automation to replace our handcrafted RADIUS library (which misses many attributes) |
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| 14:53:07 | <ph88^> | that's nice :) |
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| 15:04:28 | <wz1000> | is it possible to get the CallStack while catching an exception? |
| 15:05:08 | <merijn> | Partially, I think? |
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| 15:08:00 | <wz1000> | how? |
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| 15:08:55 | <wz1000> | printf debuggging has given me the answer for now, but it would be good to know for next time |
| 15:09:58 | <merijn> | wz1000: You gotta capture it with the exception/throw, I thought there was already some work on that, but maybe not yet: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/12096 |
| 15:11:57 | <Guest_39> | Hello :) |
| 15:11:58 | <Guest_39> | Does anyone here know how to get the Haskell extension to work on VS Code with Windows? I'm getting the error "haskell-language-server 0.9.0 for GHC 8.10.4 is not available on Windows_NT". Do I have to downgrade GHC or is this fixable? |
| 15:11:58 | <Guest_39> | Also, if this isn't the right place to ask, please let me know and I'll ask somewhere else. |
| 15:12:22 | <merijn> | 8.10.4 has only been out for...2-3 days? |
| 15:12:30 | <merijn> | I expect no one made binaries yet |
| 15:12:47 | <Guest_39> | I see, I only started learning Haskell yesterday haha |
| 15:12:53 | <Guest_39> | Thanks! |
| 15:13:14 | <merijn> | I just checked, it was released 3 days ago, yeah |
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| 15:13:45 | <merijn> | There's a #haskell-language-server channel iirc, they might now if and how soon binaries may be available |
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| 15:14:14 | <Guest_39> | Great, thank you |
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| 15:15:11 | Guest_39 | is now known as boolean_coercion |
| 15:15:53 | <swarmcollective> | Guest_39, If it suites your environment, you can run a vscode devcontainer, I have this working with the latest release version of the Haskell docker image (GHC 8.10.2) and the HLS. |
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| 15:16:47 | <boolean_coercion> | I don't think I'm familiar with that, I'll look it up :p |
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| 15:17:46 | <swarmcollective> | boolean_coercion see also: https://github.com/calledtoconstruct/haskell-hls-devcontainer |
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| 15:18:33 | <boolean_coercion> | Thank you :D |
| 15:19:21 | <swarmcollective> | Automate all the things! |
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| 15:25:05 | <maralorn> | I have masters degree in optics and still finding the right lens for every job is so hard … |
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| 15:29:10 | <dminuoso> | "masters degree in optics" |
| 15:29:12 | <dminuoso> | heh |
| 15:29:31 | <merijn> | I have a masters in not using lens :p |
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| 15:32:42 | <siraben> | this is voodoo https://oleg.fi/gists/posts/2017-04-18-glassery.html |
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| 15:35:56 | <merijn> | "oleg", "voodoo" <- duh |
| 15:36:04 | <merijn> | Ah, wait, wrong Oleg :p |
| 15:36:06 | <maralorn> | Why is filtered in Optics.AffineFold only defined for AffineFold? Why is it not defined for any Fold? |
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| 15:41:35 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: Do take a look at the signature, it should reveal it. |
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| 15:41:56 | <dminuoso> | filtered :: (a -> Bool) -> AffineFold a a |
| 15:42:16 | <dminuoso> | Note `AffineFold a a` |
| 15:42:35 | <dminuoso> | It's a sort of "predicate optic" |
| 15:43:40 | <dminuoso> | You can compose it with another optic, and then you have a regular fold |
| 15:43:42 | <dminuoso> | say |
| 15:43:47 | <dminuoso> | folded % filtered even |
| 15:44:40 | <maralorn> | dminuoso: aaah |
| 15:45:20 | <maralorn> | I thought Fold % AffineFold -> AffineFold, but it's Fold % AffineFold -> Fold |
| 15:46:07 | <maralorn> | dminuoso: I just read an AffineFold contains at most one item and was like, no I want to fold more than one … |
| 15:46:11 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: Right. composition gives you the least upper bound (in terms of supertypes) between the optics. |
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| 15:46:24 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: In fact, if you stare at the diagram, there's no other way. |
| 15:46:39 | <maralorn> | dminuoso: Yeah, true. |
| 15:47:03 | <dminuoso> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/optics-0.3/docs/diagrams/optics.png |
| 15:48:05 | <maralorn> | dminuoso: I have in fact been staring at that 10 minutes ago. I just didn‘t connect the dots. |
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| 15:48:32 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: Here'a few things perhaps to consider, to burn it deeper into mind: |
| 15:48:52 | <dminuoso> | If your assumption was right, everything had to be an Iso! |
| 15:49:05 | <dminuoso> | (that is, everything would gracefully degrade into an iso) |
| 15:49:18 | <dminuoso> | and it should be equally obvious that composing a lens with a prism doesnt magically give you an iso |
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| 15:51:20 | <dminuoso> | You can always "upcast" an optic to a supertype |
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| 15:51:48 | <dminuoso> | (via castOptic) |
| 15:54:26 | <maralorn> | Is there a neater way to write "has _a x && has _b x"? |
| 15:55:17 | <maralorn> | As in is there an f so that I can write "has (f _a _b) x"? |
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| 15:55:50 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: Do you need this to scale out further? Or do you only need two optics? |
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| 15:57:53 | <dminuoso> | Such a thing would look similar to `choosing` from `lens` I guess |
| 15:58:03 | <Zemyla> | Does lambdabot support LinearTypes yet? |
| 15:58:07 | <merijn> | lol |
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| 15:58:30 | <merijn> | I don't think lambdabot even uses GHC 8.10, let alone a few day old 9.0 |
| 15:59:07 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: Mmm, I guess alongside is that thing. |
| 15:59:47 | <dminuoso> | But it only works for Lens |
| 15:59:49 | <Zemyla> | Also, is there a Comonoid class in 9.10? |
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| 16:00:22 | <dminuoso> | Comonoid? |
| 16:00:31 | <dminuoso> | What methods would you expect it to have? |
| 16:00:57 | <dminuoso> | Just `class Comonoid w where split :: w -> (w, w)` ? |
| 16:01:03 | <Zemyla> | class Comonoid a where { delete :: a %1 -> (); dup :: a %1 -> (a, a) } |
| 16:01:10 | <dminuoso> | Well, `delete` is redundant in haskell |
| 16:01:11 | <Taneb> | Ah, linear comonoid? I don't think so |
| 16:01:15 | <dminuoso> | So this would, at best, be Cosemigroup |
| 16:01:16 | <Taneb> | dminuoso: it's not with linear types |
| 16:01:18 | <dminuoso> | Oh |
| 16:01:29 | <dminuoso> | Taneb: Ah, because it consumes a thing? |
| 16:01:35 | <Taneb> | Yeah |
| 16:01:38 | <dminuoso> | (sort of proof of destroying it?) |
| 16:01:42 | <Zemyla> | instance Comonoid Bool where { delete x = if x then () else (); dup x = if x then (True, True) else (False, False) } |
| 16:01:42 | <Taneb> | Like closing a file I guess maybe |
| 16:01:45 | <dminuoso> | I see |
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| 16:02:37 | <maralorn> | dminuoso: That is the function I am obessing about to make "even lensier". https://paste.linuxlounge.net/A3CAM |
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| 16:03:55 | <lortabac> | Zemyla: I am not familiar with linear types, but AFAIK this is the reference library https://github.com/tweag/linear-base |
| 16:04:11 | <Zemyla> | instance (Comonoid a, Comonoid b) => Comonoid (Either a b) where { delete (Left a) = delete a; delete (Right b) = delete b; dup (Left a) = case dup a of (al, ar) -> (Left al, Left ar); dup (Right b) = case dup b of (bl, br) -> (Right bl, Right br) } |
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| 16:04:34 | <Taneb> | maralorn: why "not . any (`notElem` xs)" rather than "all (`elem` xs)"? I think that's equivalent |
| 16:05:12 | <Zemyla> | And then similar for (Comonoid a, Comonoid b) => Comonoid (a, b), and you can build things such as Comonoid a => Comonoid [a] from that. |
| 16:05:21 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: I see, you could use `failing` perhaps. But Im not sure whether that improves things. |
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| 16:22:44 | <mjuker> | why is haskell's type system so powerful (explaining to a layperson not in fp)? |
| 16:23:37 | <merijn> | That's not really an answerable question |
| 16:23:45 | <merijn> | What does "powerful type system" even mean? |
| 16:23:58 | <mjuker> | i'm not sure, one of the appeals of haskell seems to be the type system |
| 16:24:11 | <mjuker> | actually i am not haskell or functional programmer :) |
| 16:24:23 | <dminuoso> | Yes. We have an "expressive" type system. What that means is a bit difficult to explain, if you have not experienced such type systems before. |
| 16:24:23 | <mjuker> | but i tried haskell for a while and it definitely seemed.. awkward |
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| 16:24:33 | <dminuoso> | mjuker: Perhaps, I could show you a motivating example? |
| 16:24:36 | <mjuker> | sure! |
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| 16:25:33 | <dminuoso> | So we can define a data type `data Maybe a = Just a | Nothing`. This reads a bit strange, but means "We can have values of `Just x` (for some value of `x`) or `Nothing` that are of type `Maybe t` (for some type of 't'). |
| 16:25:41 | <dminuoso> | This lets us say something like |
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| 16:26:07 | <dminuoso> | `f :: Int -> Maybe Char` (f is a function taking an Int, and returns a Maybe Char) |
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| 16:26:26 | <mjuker> | ok, right, actually i have about 2 months experience so i'm not completely new and have seen maybe types before :) |
| 16:26:38 | <dminuoso> | Oh well, that makes things simpler then. |
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| 16:26:46 | <dminuoso> | Maybe itself lets us tag in the type system where values might be missing. |
| 16:26:53 | <dminuoso> | It avoids all the annoyance and problems that `null` has |
| 16:27:11 | <dminuoso> | It forces us to deal with Nothing (since the only way to access the value inside a Maybe is by pattern matching) |
| 16:27:35 | <mjuker> | do you have other motivating examples? :P |
| 16:27:38 | <dminuoso> | So with this simple parametrized data type, we have ruled out a huge class of bugs. |
| 16:28:47 | <mjuker> | for example it feels like functors are doing something imperative languages can't do, but i can't pinpoint what exactly |
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| 16:29:21 | <dminuoso> | Well so the special thing about Functor, is that we can talk about higher kinded types in typeclasses. |
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| 16:29:37 | <dminuoso> | Taking the above example `Maybe` itself is a valid type-level entity. |
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| 16:30:05 | <dminuoso> | (That is, not just `Maybe Char`, but just the plain `Maybe`. It acts like a function, but on the type level. Our typeclass system lets us describe interfaces for such types |
| 16:30:46 | <dminuoso> | `class Functor (f :: * -> *) where fmap :: (a -> b) -> f a -> f b` is a typeclass, whose members/instances are type functions of kind * -> * |
| 16:31:19 | <dminuoso> | We sort of lift the expressivitivity of functions and their abstraction to the type system |
| 16:31:49 | <dminuoso> | Just like we can pass functions as first-class entities in the value level, we can talk about "function types" as first-class entities in the type level |
| 16:32:16 | <dminuoso> | Most languages cant even talk about higher kinded things, which is why they are not expressible in many languages reasonably |
| 16:33:06 | <mjuker> | but why is this useful? |
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| 16:33:40 | <mjuker> | i mean, i see what it can do, but in my work in industry using haskell i don't think i ever used functors to do something i can't normally do with a language like java |
| 16:34:13 | <mjuker> | (though i only have 2 months experience so maybe i just haven't seen much) |
| 16:34:31 | <merijn> | mjuker: You can do basically anything in any language |
| 16:34:32 | <raehik> | Haskell gives you more power to reuse concepts like functors, across way more things |
| 16:34:37 | <merijn> | The question is "how hard is it?" |
| 16:34:48 | <mjuker> | yeah, i guess i'm asking for things functors make really easy that is hard in other languages |
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| 16:35:30 | <raehik> | oh, mapping over data then |
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| 16:35:52 | <raehik> | that's easier in other languages nowadays, but you may be quite limited in flexibility vs. Haskell |
| 16:36:08 | <mjuker> | could you elaborate? |
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| 16:37:41 | <dsal> | elm has functors, but it doesn't have type classes, so anything you might want to do with a functor has to be written for the specific type you want to do it with. You don't get to reuse functionality nearly enough. |
| 16:37:57 | <lortabac> | mjuker: one random example: 'data Tree a = Leaf a | Branch (Tree a) (Tree a) deriving (Functor, Foldable, Traversable)' and you get mapping, folding, flattening, traversing etc. for free |
| 16:38:37 | <raehik> | yeah, I was trying to think of an example using lists |
| 16:39:00 | <raehik> | but where Haskell shines where other langs don't, is operations over tree-likes (not just lists) |
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| 16:39:38 | <dsal> | functors aren't all collections. Maybe is one of the first I think of. Or monads. |
| 16:40:08 | <tdammers> | or -> |
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| 16:40:36 | <tdammers> | also: lack of typeclasses is one of the top things I hate about Elm |
| 16:41:10 | <dsal> | > succ <$> Just 1 -- this is a thing you do in many languages, but without functors, it's either boilerplate or a bug. |
| 16:41:12 | <lambdabot> | Just 2 |
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| 16:42:18 | <raehik> | much of Java's powerful type abstractions came over from functional programming, squished into a Java shape |
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| 16:42:20 | <ephemient> | Maybe is a 0/1-size collection and ((->) a) is an |a|-size collection ;) |
| 16:42:45 | <tdammers> | fwiw, modelling dictionaries as functions is sometimes convenient / useful |
| 16:42:46 | <raehik> | Java-shaped things are pretty nice to use in Java, since there's no required purity and so on |
| 16:42:55 | <dsal> | I disagree with that ^ |
| 16:43:08 | <raehik> | (oh, sorry, who) |
| 16:43:19 | <dsal> | Oh, I just don't find anything nice to use in java. |
| 16:43:27 | <raehik> | lol |
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| 16:43:34 | <tdammers> | insert k v f = \x -> if x == k then v else f x |
| 16:43:48 | <raehik> | I meant that many functional concepts really work OK in Java and Python now. but it was due to langs like Haskell existing for years beforehand |
| 16:44:02 | <raehik> | and the squishing that took place meant an awful lot of generality lost |
| 16:44:35 | <dsal> | Yeah, makes sense. But it always works like, "this is the part of the balloon we won't poke holes in." |
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| 17:02:42 | <Logio> | yeah, I've tried using functor-like generalizations in Python, but they tend to fail since there's no purity enforcement |
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| 17:03:37 | <Logio> | there's always some code that doesn't keep the structure intact and screws up everything |
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| 17:26:41 | <danza> | tdammers, interesting, how would you use that @insert@? |
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| 17:43:40 | <__minoru__shirae> | danza: something like this maybe? let dict = insert 1 "one" $ insert 2 "two" $ insert 3 "tree" $ \_ -> "default value" |
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| 17:47:08 | <__minoru__shirae> | dict 1 |
| 17:47:11 | <danza> | thanks __minoru__shirae, that's indeed a way. I think he meant it as a way to add special cases to existing functions |
| 17:47:27 | <__minoru__shirae> | dict <$> [1..5] |
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| 17:48:02 | <danza> | like insert 0 Nothing (\x->Just 1/x), but this won't typecheck |
| 17:49:37 | <__minoru__shirae> | sounds like python's thing, forgot the name, when you label a function with another function |
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| 17:50:47 | <danza> | decorators, they are similar to higher-order functions |
| 17:51:05 | <__minoru__shirae> | yeah, that's it, decorators |
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| 17:51:22 | <__minoru__shirae> | I wonder if they're popular in python world |
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| 17:53:08 | <danza> | probably among pythonistas you can find many school of thoughts in favor or against decorators... :) i think that they are quite popular also outside python though |
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| 17:53:43 | <__minoru__shirae> | what do you mean outside python? |
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| 17:54:22 | <__minoru__shirae> | seems like python's decorators are halfway between higher order functions and java's annotations |
| 17:55:29 | <__minoru__shirae> | I didn't like Java's annotations, I don't know why |
| 17:56:30 | <__minoru__shirae> | probably because using annotations doesn't feel like programming |
| 17:56:57 | <__minoru__shirae> | or rather, reading about annotations is not fun |
| 17:57:35 | <__minoru__shirae> | those listings of all the parameters |
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| 18:04:33 | <__minoru__shirae> | for those who don't like to chain $'s: dict2 = (insert 1 "one" . insert 2 "two" . insert 3 "tree") $ \_ -> "default value" |
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| 18:12:04 | <ezzieyguywuf> | I'm looking for advice - which of these two methods would you use/recommend for this "chain" data type? https://dpaste.com/8A6HP5HNP |
| 18:14:38 | <opqdonut> | either will work, it all depends on what type of functions you write |
| 18:14:56 | <opqdonut> | I think I'd prefer the first one, if all things are equal |
| 18:15:00 | <monochrom> | It depends on how often you really care about the distinction between open and closed. |
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| 18:15:20 | <opqdonut> | yeah if you have lots of code that handles open & closed the same way, the second is better |
| 18:15:25 | <ezzieyguywuf> | hm, I guess my answer to "how often" would be...not often. |
| 18:15:27 | <opqdonut> | if you want to make sure you never mix them up, the first one is better |
| 18:15:47 | <monochrom> | E.g., if you care 1% of the time, this means the other 99% of the time, the 1st version is annoying to use. |
| 18:16:04 | <ezzieyguywuf> | yea I think I prefer the second, because e.g. `breakChain :: Chain -> [Int]` (or something) doesn't care if the Chain is open or closed |
| 18:16:16 | ezzieyguywuf | nods |
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| 18:16:27 | <ezzieyguywuf> | I was thinking along the same lines, but just wanted to bounce it off of some folks |
| 18:16:30 | <ezzieyguywuf> | thanks :) |
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| 18:17:13 | <monochrom> | Actually, maybe not. data Chain = OpenChain{getIndices :: [Int]} | ClosedChain{getIndices :: [Int]} may be the best of both worlds. |
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| 18:17:38 | <monochrom> | Yes you can have the same field name across different constructors! |
| 18:17:51 | <ezzieyguywuf> | monochrom: yes, I've considered this too. |
| 18:17:58 | <ezzieyguywuf> | but also...it *feels* wrong. |
| 18:18:00 | <ezzieyguywuf> | i.e. prone to error |
| 18:18:14 | <ezzieyguywuf> | just a gut feeling though. |
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| 18:19:51 | <opqdonut> | yea I was about to mention that you can just implement a getIndices :: Chain -> [Int] for the first case manually |
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| 18:19:59 | <opqdonut> | the only distinction then is that you can't talk about _just_ the type of a chain |
| 18:20:08 | <opqdonut> | since you lack the Open|Closed enum |
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| 18:21:06 | <ezzieyguywuf> | so my key takeaway is that any of these three are valid, and neither are considered inherently "wrong" or "poor coding practice" |
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| 18:21:18 | <ezzieyguywuf> | which is the type of takeaway I was hoping to....take away. |
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| 18:25:58 | <dminuoso> | 17:42:45 tdammers | fwiw, modelling dictionaries as functions is sometimes convenient / useful |
| 18:26:13 | <dminuoso> | The one thing I dislike about explicit dictionary passing, is that you suddenly lose the guaranteed coherence |
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| 18:26:39 | <monochrom> | I don't think they meant that kind of dictionary. |
| 18:26:53 | <monochrom> | They meant key-value stores. |
| 18:27:31 | <monochrom> | Although, I would s/model/interface/ |
| 18:28:20 | <tdammers> | model/implement/whatever |
| 18:28:22 | <dminuoso> | Ah. |
| 18:28:36 | <tdammers> | it's not so much about the interface to me, as the interface I gave is pretty much the same as for, say Data.Map |
| 18:28:47 | <monochrom> | implement is downright dumb. apart from being theoretically cute in mathematics |
| 18:29:06 | <monochrom> | worse than [(Key,Value)] list. |
| 18:30:38 | <opqdonut> | i thought it'd be ok for e.g. a small enum to small enum mapping |
| 18:30:49 | <opqdonut> | e.g. `not` |
| 18:31:04 | <monochrom> | To be sure it is theoretically mathematically cute in the sense that if you have barebone lambda calculus without any data structure whatsoever you can still build data structures from scratch. |
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| 18:31:44 | <monochrom> | In the same sense as "modeling the natural numbers as functions is sometimes <whatever adjectives you were using>" |
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| 18:32:34 | <monochrom> | opqdonut: No contention there. Along the same time, bubble sort for 3 items is fine. |
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| 18:33:07 | <monochrom> | I am also known for using a quadratic-time algorithm on a list of 200 students. |
| 18:33:40 | <monochrom> | err, two such lists. I'm doing a relational join. |
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| 18:34:16 | <shapr> | __minoru__shirae: have you thought up a project to build? |
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| 18:37:47 | <__minoru__shirae> | shapr: I got interested in a question that was asked in this chat about inter-thread communication via IORef in lambdabot, then I got an idea to reproduce that pattern. |
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| 18:38:55 | <__minoru__shirae> | I think maybe playing with patterns would be interesting and more productive than searching for an idea of an app |
| 18:39:26 | <shapr> | sounds good to me |
| 18:39:43 | <shapr> | I've used channels from Control.Concurrent to talk to different threads. |
| 18:41:36 | <__minoru__shirae> | it's interesting to see how you would talk to another thread from the bottom of a monad stack |
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| 18:42:53 | <__minoru__shirae> | ideally I would separate the pattern into a minimal example |
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| 18:43:33 | <__minoru__shirae> | so that's the idea |
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| 19:01:13 | <__minoru__shirae> | I said "it's interesting to see how you would talk to another thread from the bottom of a monad stack" |
| 19:02:09 | <shapr> | __minoru__shirae: I like it! |
| 19:02:14 | <__minoru__shirae> | but come to think of it, it seems like not much different from a regular monad stack |
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| 19:02:37 | <__minoru__shirae> | talking to another thread is just an IO-action, so the stack becomes IO-based, right? |
| 19:02:45 | <monochrom> | Yeah, it's just a "liftIO readChan" or something. |
| 19:02:50 | <__minoru__shirae> | but I want to see it in action |
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| 19:03:09 | <shapr> | __minoru__shirae: write a tiny chat server? |
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| 19:04:00 | <monochrom> | I don't consider "talking to another thread" as so different from "talking to whatever it is on the other side of stdin and stdout" |
| 19:04:00 | <__minoru__shirae> | shapr: and where would threads talk to each other? |
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| 19:04:24 | <shapr> | hm, maybe a chat server isn't the best way to demonstrate threads talking to each other |
| 19:04:29 | <monochrom> | If you can "liftIO getChar" then you can "liftIO readChan" |
| 19:04:44 | <shapr> | although, the read and write sides could each be their own thread? |
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| 19:04:54 | <ph88^> | how can i write a parser and a grammar definition and keep them in sync ? |
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| 19:05:57 | <__minoru__shirae> | the thing is: I'm familiar with the concept of using channels for inter-thread communication, but using IORef? I wanted to see how that works. |
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| 19:07:37 | <monochrom> | ph88^: I probably write the parser and hope that I can read the grammar out of it. |
| 19:07:54 | <monochrom> | Sometimes I add comments to remind myself. |
| 19:08:15 | <monochrom> | How do I keep comments and code in sync? The same way I keep any comments and any code in sync. |
| 19:10:10 | <ph88^> | how can that be tested though ? |
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| 19:13:01 | <monochrom> | I write test inputs. |
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| 19:15:54 | <__minoru__shirae> | shapr: "although, the read and write sides could each be their own thread?" What do you mean? |
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| 19:16:34 | <__minoru__shirae> | I think maybe a mini-game would work as a demonstration |
| 19:16:47 | <__minoru__shirae> | or mini-database |
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| 19:18:23 | <__minoru__shirae> | what other kind of application does allow to play with concurrency? |
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| 19:19:33 | <merijn> | __minoru__shirae: The "problem" with IORef is that you don't know when/if the IORef was updated |
| 19:19:43 | <merijn> | __minoru__shirae: Whether that's a problem, depends on what you wanna do |
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| 19:20:22 | <merijn> | __minoru__shirae: IORef is basically variables in all other languages are. A named, mutable piece of memory and anyone with the name can write to/read from it |
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| 19:23:32 | <__minoru__shirae> | merjin: good to know. Sounds like it's a "last resort" kind of solution, right? |
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| 19:24:52 | <merijn> | Yes, no, maybe. They have their uses, but as you probably noticed you don't really need mutable variables as much as you thought before you started learning Haskell ;) |
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| 19:26:54 | <merijn> | I don't really like casting "IO" based code as "last resort". You should write what's easiest to maintain. And beginners should just write code, because nothing teaches you as much as actually doing. I think someone learning Haskell who writes code by having *everything* in IO will probably get a hang of things quicker then someone who spends days worrying about how to do something without IO, instead of |
| 19:27:00 | <merijn> | implementing what they wanted to implement |
| 19:27:35 | <sm[m]> | +1 |
| 19:28:33 | <sm[m]> | though, I don't remember as a beginner situations where doing it all in IO would have helped a lot |
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| 19:28:59 | <sm[m]> | my challenges were more about just understanding and lining up types |
| 19:30:24 | <merijn> | I'm not saying "doing it all in IO" helps, just saying then "doing" helps more than "analysis paralysis and worrying about your use of IO" |
| 19:30:56 | <merijn> | Haskell + tons of IO is still much nicer to work in than many/most other languages, so I don't see any point in pretending "IO == bad" |
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| 19:34:20 | <koz_> | Is there a way, at runtime, to determine the value of the -N rtsopt? |
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| 19:34:54 | <merijn> | getNumCapabilities |
| 19:35:00 | <koz_> | Thanks! |
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| 19:36:31 | <monochrom> | I don't avoid IO. But I avoid avoiding advoiding IO. |
| 19:37:07 | <monochrom> | In layperson terms, I avoid <getting IO involved for no particular reason>. |
| 19:37:39 | <monochrom> | But that's just a special case of my general tenet avoiding <having no particular reason>. |
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| 19:37:53 | <merijn> | monochrom: Sure, but I'd argue that that is not as important for beginners as "just writing code" is :) |
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| 19:38:18 | <merijn> | Like, that's a good goal IFF it's not stopping you from doing something |
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| 19:39:08 | <monochrom> | Well, in my ideal, everyone should be already avoiding <having no particular reason> as a common substrate, so the IO case shouldn't even be a big fuzz. |
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| 19:40:17 | <monochrom> | But sadly most programmers prefer cargo-culting and rule-of-thumbing and best-practicing. (All euphemisms for "don't use brain".) |
| 19:41:54 | <monochrom> | OK, you probably see more people paralyzing than getting things done recklessly. |
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| 19:42:42 | <monochrom> | What I see more is more people getting things done recklessly, then cite the excuse "I have to start from somewhere", but that excuse is used to refuse to grow. |
| 19:43:09 | <merijn> | monochrom: On average I tend to see more beginners here get stuck over analysing and/or throwing themselves into the Hasochism tarpit then I see people overusing IO :p |
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| 19:43:40 | <__minoru__shirae> | merjin: "Like, that's a good goal IFF it's not stopping you from doing something" - you see, doing something is IO-action, but they prefer pure thoughts in their heads |
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| 19:44:01 | <__minoru__shirae> | just joking |
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| 19:45:21 | <monochrom> | I see my share of people who over-analyze. But not on <to IO or not to IO>. More like (\x -> x+y) vs (+ y). |
| 19:45:46 | <monochrom> | And two spaces vs four. |
| 19:46:00 | <merijn> | monochrom: Or lens :p |
| 19:46:34 | <merijn> | The right answer is clearly 4 for blocks and 2 for continuations unless it looks more readable differently :p |
| 19:47:00 | merijn | burns an auto-formatter in effigy |
| 19:47:36 | <monochrom> | I still count those over-analyses as not using brain though. |
| 19:47:57 | <monochrom> | If you use your brain, you see that you should just toss a coin and move on. |
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| 19:49:43 | <monochrom> | Over-analysis is cargo-culting proper analysis |
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| 19:51:11 | <monochrom> | I don't actually see beginners doing "f :: Int -> IO Int; f x = return (x+1)" though. |
| 19:51:46 | <monochrom> | What I see is the subtler kind I describe in http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/IO.xhtml#organization |
| 19:52:01 | <monochrom> | But that kind is unforgivable in even C++. |
| 19:53:56 | <monochrom> | But you can chalk it up as "you need a refactoring after you're done" |
| 19:54:43 | <monochrom> | But like I said, people don't, people say "I have to start somewhere" ironically after they are done, not before. |
| 19:56:26 | <monochrom> | More generally, sometimes "knowing just a little can be more dangerous than not knowing at all" applies. |
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| 19:57:09 | <__minoru__shirae> | monochrom: did you hear a rule: "if it works - don't touch it" |
| 19:57:28 | <monochrom> | Yes. That rule is for production systems only. |
| 19:57:57 | <monochrom> | In this context, one is learning, one is supposed to break things and tear apart and put together in a different way to learn. |
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| 19:58:13 | <monochrom> | So here a new rule |
| 19:58:20 | <monochrom> | If you don't touch it, you learn nothing. |
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| 19:58:39 | <__minoru__shirae> | as a side-note, I think people should do that to production systems too. I mean experiment with them. |
| 19:58:48 | <monochrom> | That's how I learn anyway. |
| 19:59:02 | <average> | monochrom: if that rule were strictly respected, we would only ever see the first version of all products in prod |
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| 19:59:27 | <average> | but we know from experience that this is not the case. every product needs new versions (for various reasons) |
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| 20:00:17 | <swarmcollective> | When I began to attempt Haskell programming, several people kept throwing "you could reduce <expr> to <expr>" and it made it very difficult. Now that I have a stable environment with HLS and have spent time on projects of my own, it is starting to make sense. |
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| 20:00:55 | <swarmcollective> | Optimizations that the Language Server recommends, I accept readily (except for enabling language features). |
| 20:00:55 | <average> | monochrom: "Learning" in this context can also mean being aggressively scolded and even fired or other disciplinary measures tho.. |
| 20:01:07 | <average> | "Learning" could mean anything. I actually don't know the right definition for it |
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| 20:02:28 | <monochrom> | swarmcollective: I am a bit not understanding. So far it looks like you're just replacing someone on IRC by someone in your editor. |
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| 20:02:43 | <average> | swarmcollective: that quote you wrote has so many forms. "You can use <X> IDE instead of vim" , "Why don't you use Chrome instead of Firefox?" , "I don't use vim, I use nano, I suggest you switch so we can align" , "I use tabs not spaces, please align with me so we can be on the same page" |
| 20:02:56 | <monochrom> | The Turing-test POV being why are the two even different. |
| 20:03:00 | <swarmcollective> | At the same time, I'm not paid for the Haskell I write, so I don't have to answer to anyone for the choices I make. I wouldn't mind having that constraint, but right now, I'm just happy to learn the language and ecosystem. |
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| 20:03:34 | <monochrom> | Put it this way. s/on IRC/in your IRC client/ |
| 20:04:07 | <swarmcollective> | average, exactly. We, for some reason, are not building and using tools that elliminate all of that, so we can focus on getting stuff done. |
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| 20:05:33 | <average> | swarmcollective: even GTD has perverted interpretations. to some, GTD might mean setting up a meeting in order to "align" |
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| 20:05:34 | <swarmcollective> | monochrom, to some degree, yes, HLS does suggest refactorings, but they tend to be small changes that are easily understood. |
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| 20:06:17 | <swarmcollective> | And I can turn HLS hints off without too much concern that HLS will be angry. :D |
| 20:08:03 | <monochrom> | I agree that a lot of regulars here, but not me, go overboard in shovel advanced technques down people's throats. |
| 20:08:05 | <swarmcollective> | And to clarify, my experience on irc / #Haskell has been very positive. |
| 20:09:35 | <swarmcollective> | AND, I freely admit that I tend towards verbose source. I prefer to let the compiler do more work and desire the code to be easily understood by a wide audience. |
| 20:09:53 | <merijn> | Verbosity isn't correlated with compiler work tbh |
| 20:10:03 | <swarmcollective> | Unfortunately, that tends to make the code less readable by an experienced Haskeller. |
| 20:10:11 | <dolio> | It's also not necessarily easier to understand. |
| 20:10:22 | <swarmcollective> | dolio, exactly. |
| 20:10:22 | <merijn> | dolio: It depends what you mean by verbose |
| 20:10:29 | <merijn> | dolio: 30 character names? No |
| 20:10:34 | <monochrom> | Perhaps s/verbose/elementary/ |
| 20:10:51 | <merijn> | dolio: Grouping things more spaciously with whitespace, adding signatures to all bindings, etc. can also be considered "more verbose" |
| 20:11:01 | <swarmcollective> | I'm told that I over-use `let-in` and `where` :D |
| 20:11:11 | <merijn> | tbh, there's a bunch of "expert" haskeller who should use more bloody whitespace and signatures on where blocks |
| 20:11:14 | <merijn> | swarmcollective: Right |
| 20:11:21 | <merijn> | swarmcollective: The correct amount of let-in is none >.> |
| 20:11:28 | <merijn> | It looks ugly as sin |
| 20:11:36 | <koz_> | Does anyone know why PropertyT from Hedgehog lacks a MonadMask instance? |
| 20:11:37 | <merijn> | The solution is "more where blocks" |
| 20:12:04 | <swarmcollective> | At this stage, I prefer to name things. Thus `let-in` allows me to do that. |
| 20:12:13 | <merijn> | swarmcollective: So does where :p |
| 20:12:25 | <dolio> | let-in is not always bad. |
| 20:12:57 | <merijn> | dolio: I find the circumstance in where let-in is better than either "more named bindings using where" is very slim |
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| 20:13:17 | <swarmcollective> | merijn, which is funny to me because some people said "don't use `where`, `let-in` is cleaner". Is this purely a matter of preference? :D (Just kidding) |
| 20:13:24 | <merijn> | I'll use let in do-blocks occasionally for definition using previously monadically bound values |
| 20:13:30 | <dolio> | It's not that common, but it's not never. |
| 20:13:31 | <merijn> | swarmcollective: I've never seen anyone say that :p |
| 20:13:53 | <merijn> | swarmcollective: I'm pretty confident in saying 80-90% of people here prefer where over let-in |
| 20:14:10 | <monochrom> | This is why you take syntactic aethetic advise from no one. |
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| 20:14:47 | <merijn> | No, everyone should take syntactic aesthetic advice from *me* >.< |
| 20:14:57 | <swarmcollective> | This is making me think that a HLS refactoring hint that allows one to toggle between `let-in` and `where` would be handy. :D |
| 20:15:16 | <merijn> | swarmcollective: Do you have an example of using let-in? |
| 20:15:26 | <swarmcollective> | Oh, and then the pattern matching versus guards, etc... |
| 20:15:41 | <monochrom> | I sometimes use let-in when I anticipate that my students want to see definitions before use sites. |
| 20:15:50 | geekosaur | uses it pretty heavily in one (not of much interest to anyone else) project, to build up a complicated computation in stages |
| 20:15:53 | <merijn> | I don't see as guards and pattern matching as alternatives, tbh >.> |
| 20:16:01 | <monochrom> | It is always about who's reading it |
| 20:16:04 | <geekosaur> | precisely to show definitions before use sites |
| 20:16:23 | <swarmcollective> | merijn, I'll see if I can find an example or two. |
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| 20:16:40 | <dolio> | Pattern guards can supplement normal pattern matching well sometimes. |
| 20:18:37 | <swarmcollective> | merijn, https://github.com/calledtoconstruct/lambdabot/blob/patches/lambdabot-term-plugins/src/Lambdabot/Plugin/Term/Logic.hs |
| 20:19:39 | <merijn> | swarmcollective: FYI on line 74 and 75 the let is redundant |
| 20:19:49 | <merijn> | you can define blocks of bindings with one let in do notation |
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| 20:20:55 | <swarmcollective> | I think that makes sense. |
| 20:21:02 | <merijn> | Although I'd still move those to where anyway |
| 20:21:07 | <monochrom> | devil's advocate (I am not serious): but multiple let's reminds the human that this is not a mutually-recursive group. >:) |
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| 20:22:54 | <swarmcollective> | For instance, around line 19, StateChangeResult could be replaced with a tuple. However, having the names make it more explicit. |
| 20:23:13 | <monochrom> | That one we all agree. |
| 20:23:15 | <swarmcollective> | But, they then clutter the namespace. :/ |
| 20:24:18 | <merijn> | swarmcollective: tbh, I'm increasingly convinced that types like StateChangeResult instead of tuple is a "Great Idea, Actually" |
| 20:25:22 | <geekosaur> | "clutter the namespace" that's what namespace is there for |
| 20:25:37 | <swarmcollective> | merijn, was it you that suggested naming the constructor something different than the type? MkStateChangeResult? I tried that in the next plugin, and it makes sense to me. |
| 20:25:41 | <merijn> | tbh, my main objection to let-in is that it is almost impossible to layout that is both correct (i.e. parses) *and* looks good is readable |
| 20:26:25 | <merijn> | In fact, my main gripe with essentially all mainstream programming language is that no one seems to have put any though in how constructs can be line-wrapped/layouted nicely |
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| 20:27:10 | <merijn> | Hot take: Everyon arguing that Haskell should use ':' for type annotations instead of '::' is wrong, because ':' doesn't align with => and -> >.< |
| 20:27:26 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 20:27:32 | <merijn> | I'm not even joking |
| 20:27:42 | <__monty__> | Then why don't lambdas start with \\? |
| 20:27:43 | <swarmcollective> | ^^^ Yes! I really would like to get to the point where source code is written to disk and stored in source control with nearly zero formatting and the editor / plugin displays the code in a way that suites the developer. *sigh* |
| 20:27:46 | <merijn> | If I could I'd change the '.' after forall to something with two symbols |
| 20:28:04 | <merijn> | swarmcollective: https://www.lamdu.org/ |
| 20:28:07 | <__monty__> | I vote for `=` to become `===` in the interest of aligning nicely with <$> and <*>. |
| 20:28:11 | <monochrom> | Lamport's TLA is the only language at all that has put thought in line breaks |
| 20:28:19 | <ski> | putting the separators at start-of-code, rather than end-of-code, for each line, makes sense to me |
| 20:28:28 | <glguy> | swarmcollective: that seems like putting paintings into paint cans and leaving it to galleries to assemble it in a nice way :) |
| 20:28:40 | <merijn> | ski: You're free to be wrong >.< |
| 20:28:41 | <ski> | __monty__ : just indent it "hanging" |
| 20:28:44 | <monochrom> | Here is an example. You have "x + y + z" and you want to spread it over 3 lines because x, y, z are each long. |
| 20:28:48 | <tomsmeding> | merijn: this 'let' layout is not acceptable to you? https://github.com/tomsmeding/pastebin-haskell/blob/master/Main.hs#L121 |
| 20:28:51 | <monochrom> | In TLA it goes: |
| 20:28:52 | <monochrom> | + x |
| 20:28:54 | <monochrom> | + y |
| 20:28:55 | <monochrom> | + z |
| 20:29:09 | <ski> | merijn : hehe, i was actually concurring with the aligning of `::',`=>',`->' :) |
| 20:29:31 | <merijn> | ski: Oh, wait, I misparsed |
| 20:29:32 | <monochrom> | So the "+" doubles as "the bullet in your bulletized list". And it is fully symmetric. |
| 20:29:41 | <__monty__> | ski: I usually align the > with =. |
| 20:30:04 | <ski> | __monty__ : yes, that's what i mean. ditto for `||',`&&',&c. |
| 20:30:09 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: It's ok, but I see no advantage over moving those down two lines into the where |
| 20:30:30 | <__monty__> | monochrom: Doesn't work well with minus though? |
| 20:30:36 | <tomsmeding> | I guess |
| 20:30:37 | <merijn> | monochrom: The awkwardness of module import/export lists is also galling |
| 20:30:45 | <__monty__> | Or do you use + x - y - z? |
| 20:31:09 | <ski> | i would like to be able to state signatures, in import lists |
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| 20:31:54 | <monochrom> | __monty__, I used + for example, but the utmostly dominating occurences are with ∧, ∨, and other associative logical connectives. |
| 20:31:58 | <tomsmeding> | merijn: ImportQualifiedPost? |
| 20:32:21 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: That doesn't help with import lists at all |
| 20:32:43 | <ski> | monochrom : i often do that, when writing math formulae (except i don't have the initial one) |
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| 20:33:28 | <tomsmeding> | oh import _lists_, I misunderstood, yes those get terribly unwieldy when long |
| 20:33:34 | <monochrom> | The ingenuity here is actually putting back the initial one. |
| 20:33:46 | <monochrom> | It now reads like a bullet list. |
| 20:34:06 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: 1 per line is ok if you have a lot of imports, but takes up lots of space, but linewrapping them to multiple per line always looks hella awkward |
| 20:34:11 | <ski> | i wonder whether there's an SRFI for something like that |
| 20:34:11 | <monochrom> | And when the operator is ∧ or ∨, it is a bullet list. |
| 20:34:20 | <exarkun> | what happen :( https://gist.github.com/exarkun/9fc7f8d6c4e50832ee556db3d0728693 |
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| 20:34:43 | <monochrom> | Hell, with any associative operator at all. |
| 20:35:26 | <monochrom> | Because conceptually you are saying "I specify mconcat over the following items: <bullet list of items>" |
| 20:36:04 | <tomsmeding> | exarkun: update your stack? |
| 20:36:29 | ski | . o O ( ⌜∧ ∷ Bool → All⌝ ) |
| 20:36:39 | <maralorn> | dminuoso: I think to get two prisms to work with alongside I can use `re (alongside (re _a) (re _b))`^^ |
| 20:36:43 | <exarkun> | I just upgraded nixos to 20.09 :/ it worked before that |
| 20:36:48 | <maralorn> | I don‘t think any of this is going to increase readability. |
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| 20:38:39 | <dexterfoo> | there was a gist posted awhile ago with a technique for doing records. anyone have the link? |
| 20:39:02 | <monochrom> | exarkun: You have a "//" in "/fpco/lts-haskell/master//lts-16.27.yaml". Are you sure it is right? |
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| 20:40:17 | <exarkun> | monochrom: I'm not sure, no. But I didn't put it there. |
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| 20:40:53 | <tomsmeding> | this repo, which is what that url points to, doesn't contain any lts beyond 14.9 |
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| 20:40:54 | <tomsmeding> | https://github.com/commercialhaskell/lts-haskell |
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| 20:41:34 | <geekosaur> | sounds indeed like stack is out of date then |
| 20:41:55 | <tomsmeding> | with a fresh stack I don't get the error :p |
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| 20:46:04 | <exarkun> | is it just a coincidence that https://github.com/commercialhaskell/lts-haskell changed a few days after I upgraded my system, then? this version of stack worked last week |
| 20:46:10 | <exarkun> | (as far as I can tell) |
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| 20:46:41 | <geekosaur> | I thought that repo had been discontinued several months ago tbh |
| 20:47:28 | <geekosaur> | wonder if your (locally upgraded) stack got overwritten with an older NixOS-provided one somehow |
| 20:47:36 | <geekosaur> | or $PATH changed |
| 20:48:38 | <Uniaika> | 9 |
| 20:48:50 | <exarkun> | cannot rule any of those out, I guess, and not _exactly_ sure what version of stack I had before |
| 20:49:04 | <exarkun> | tempted to reboot into the old configuration and see if it starts working, but not tempted _enough_ |
| 20:49:15 | <exarkun> | I'll try harder to get a newer stack, I guess |
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| 20:51:57 | <tomsmeding> | '$ stack upgrade' if you want the nuke option :p |
| 20:52:08 | <tomsmeding> | probably doesn't play well with your system |
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| 21:00:19 | <Tritlo> | `(_foldl (-) 0) :: [Int] -> Int` infers the type `(Integer -> Integer -> Integer) -> Integer -> [Int] -> Int` for the hole `_foldl`... why? |
| 21:01:16 | <merijn> | Tritlo: In ghci? |
| 21:01:23 | <__minoru__shirae> | dexterfoo: you mean this one? https://dpaste.com/8A6HP5HNP |
| 21:01:45 | <Tritlo> | Shouldn't it be `(Num a, Num b) => (a -> a -> a) -> b -> [Int] -> Int`? In both GHCi 8.10 and when I compile a module |
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| 21:02:07 | <merijn> | Tritlo: Are you using -Wall? |
| 21:02:21 | <merijn> | I smell a defaulting warning :) |
| 21:03:21 | <lambdaman> | Conundrum... I have a type, which is basically a function producing a db persistable entity record (with Persistent) |
| 21:03:21 | <lambdaman> | type MapperFunc = forall record . (PersistEntity record, PersistEntityBackend record ~ SqlBackend) => (ContributionId -> M.Map Text CSVField -> record) |
| 21:03:21 | <lambdaman> | How do I create a map collection (or association list) where items of type MapperFunc are keyed by a Text name? Of course, this is a heterogenous collection, but contained per the MapperFunc constraints. |
| 21:03:23 | <Tritlo> | -Wall doesn't give anything beyond the hole error |
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| 21:03:46 | <lambdaman> | *constrained |
| 21:04:23 | <merijn> | Tritlo: Anyway, it looks like a combination of typed hole + defaulting |
| 21:05:16 | <merijn> | Tritlo: Basically, when you try to actually *use* the "0 :: Num a => a" it needs to pick what 'a' *actually* is |
| 21:05:18 | <Tritlo> | merijn: Yeah, but I thought that was only in GHCi, not in compiled modules |
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| 21:05:45 | <merijn> | Tritlo: No, compiled modules also get defaulted, but ghci has *extended* default rules (i.e. they trigger more often) |
| 21:06:07 | <merijn> | Tritlo: The only ones in compilation are that Num defaults to Integer and Fractional defaults to Double |
| 21:06:16 | <Tritlo> | merijn: any way to turn off defaulting? |
| 21:06:35 | <merijn> | Not really, you can turn the warning into an error, but that doesn't help this case |
| 21:06:42 | <merijn> | :t (^) |
| 21:06:43 | <lambdabot> | (Integral b, Num a) => a -> b -> a |
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| 21:06:55 | <merijn> | The problem is that without defaulting something simple like "2^4" wouldn't compile |
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| 21:07:04 | <merijn> | Because there's no way to tell what type 'b' is |
| 21:07:26 | <merijn> | You'd always have to type "2^(4 :: Int)" or something |
| 21:07:32 | <tomsmeding> | whereas with defaulting, it does compile, but with a warning |
| 21:07:35 | <Tritlo> | merijn: for sure, but I'm working with the holes and not the expressions |
| 21:07:52 | <tomsmeding> | which is not a lot better IMO :p |
| 21:07:52 | <Tritlo> | i.e. I don't need a type at that point, I want to see the most general one |
| 21:08:16 | <merijn> | Tritlo: I'm just guessing there's an interaction between the inference for holes and defaulting |
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| 21:08:27 | <merijn> | I'm not sure that's easy to fix either |
| 21:08:49 | <tomsmeding> | Tritlo: put 'default ()' in your file |
| 21:09:02 | <merijn> | You could check the GHC bug checker if someone has run into it before, but it seems like the kinda thing that'd be a PITA to fix for fairly little gain |
| 21:09:05 | <tomsmeding> | seems to fix it for this particular case |
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| 21:09:26 | geekosaur | is pretty sure he's run into that interaction as well |
| 21:09:29 | <geekosaur> | come to think of it |
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| 21:09:57 | <exarkun> | Okay stack 2.3.3 works fine, and that number looks kinda familiar, maybe I did have it before somehow and got downgraded |
| 21:10:13 | <Tritlo> | tomsmeding: thanks! |
| 21:10:21 | <tomsmeding> | lambdaman: what issue is there with just... using a Map? |
| 21:10:39 | <tomsmeding> | you'll have to wrap the MapperFunc in a newtype though |
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| 21:11:41 | <dexterfoo> | __minoru__shirae: no. i think i saw it in reddit. it was a secret technique for using OverloadedRecordFields extension |
| 21:11:51 | <Uniaika> | shapr: turns out the last guardian of the temple is Howard Golden |
| 21:12:11 | <shapr> | Uniaika: wow, I have never heard that name before |
| 21:12:26 | <Uniaika> | and I'm certain he's never heard yours as well |
| 21:12:40 | <Uniaika> | fuck, imagine if he died tomrrow |
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| 21:17:35 | <lambdaman> | tomsmeding: GHC doesn't yet support impredicative polymorphism (when I try to use a (new)type to make an assoc list or Map) |
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| 21:22:49 | <Guest_14> | How M1 Mac install Haskell? |
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| 21:23:31 | <maerwald> | Guest_14: https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs/-/issues/101#note_319402 |
| 21:23:31 | <nshepperd> | lambdaman: you don't need impredicative polymorphism. just wrap your MapperFunc in a newtype |
| 21:25:23 | <nshepperd> | then put the newtype in the Map |
| 21:25:27 | <merijn> | Uniaika: At least you'd get to start with a clean slate wiki, then :p |
| 21:25:51 | <merijn> | nshepperd: Can you have existential newtypes, though? |
| 21:25:54 | <Uniaika> | merijn: eh :) |
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| 21:26:17 | <nshepperd> | this would be a rank-2 newtype constructor |
| 21:26:21 | <merijn> | hmm |
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| 21:38:59 | <dolio> | You cannot have existential newtypes. |
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| 21:40:01 | <topos> | newtype Yolo = forall a. (Yolo a) |
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| 21:41:59 | <lambdaman> | nshepperd: Just newtype Foo = Foo MapperFunc ?? |
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| 21:42:29 | <nshepperd> | lambdaman: yep |
| 21:42:48 | <lambdaman> | Could not deduce: record ~ TheRecord |
| 21:42:48 | <lambdaman> | from the context: (PersistEntity record, |
| 21:42:48 | <lambdaman> | PersistEntityBackend record ~ SqlBackend) |
| 21:42:50 | <lambdaman> | bound by a type expected by the context: |
| 21:42:52 | <lambdaman> | MapperFunc |
| 21:42:54 | <lambdaman> | at src/Jobs.hs:112:34-42 |
| 21:42:56 | <lambdaman> | ‘record’ is a rigid type variable bound by |
| 21:42:58 | <lambdaman> | a type expected by the context: |
| 21:43:00 | <lambdaman> | MapperFunc |
| 21:43:02 | <lambdaman> | at src/Jobs.hs:112:34-42 |
| 21:43:04 | <lambdaman> | Expected type: ContributionId -> Map Text CSVField -> record |
| 21:43:06 | <lambdaman> | Actual type: ContributionId |
| 21:43:08 | <lambdaman> | -> Map Text CSVField -> TheRecord |
| 21:43:10 | <lambdaman> | Could not deduce: record ~ TheRecord |
| 21:43:12 | <lambdaman> | from the context: (PersistEntity record, |
| 21:43:14 | <lambdaman> | PersistEntityBackend record ~ SqlBackend) |
| 21:43:16 | <lambdaman> | bound by a type expected by the context: |
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| 21:43:30 | <nshepperd> | whoops |
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| 21:48:24 | <ski> | lambdaman : please don't paste many lines into the channel, all at the same time |
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| 21:52:01 | <geekosaur> | @where paste |
| 21:52:01 | <lambdabot> | Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at eg https://paste.tomsmeding.com |
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| 21:52:57 | <Uniaika> | lambdabot: topic, please |
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| 21:58:24 | <ph88^> | how can i write a parser and a grammar definition and keep them in sync ? |
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| 21:58:46 | <jess> | lambdaman: any time |
| 22:00:15 | <Uniaika> | ph88^: write golden tests |
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| 22:00:49 | <ph88^> | what will that do ? |
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| 22:01:38 | <Uniaika> | ph88^: basically, you write tests that are reflecting the expected result of parsing your grammar. If the parser passes the tests, yay, otherwise change the parser |
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| 22:02:27 | <ph88^> | i don't have a parser to parse the grammar ... you recommend i build one ? |
| 22:02:34 | <ph88^> | like an ebnf parser or so ? |
| 22:03:20 | <Uniaika> | what do you mean by "you recommend i build one ?"? Didn't you say that you wanted to write a parser, earlier? |
| 22:03:23 | <monochrom> | IMO s/golden// # there is no need for an extra adjective. |
| 22:03:33 | <Uniaika> | yeah, thanks monochrom |
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| 22:04:39 | <ph88^> | Uniaika, i have a parser for some source code .. and then i have seperate some notes on how the grammar looks at the moment |
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| 22:05:04 | <ph88^> | like simple documentation |
| 22:05:33 | <Uniaika> | you should produce a complete grammar, first |
| 22:05:35 | <monochrom> | What was the background that led to people starting to say "golden tests" by the way? |
| 22:06:02 | <ph88^> | Uniaika, ok im trying to produce the grammar and the parser for them ... just my question is how to keep the two of them in sync |
| 22:06:20 | <Uniaika> | monochrom: I actually don't know, I've just picked its use to mean "tests that describe the truth" |
| 22:06:20 | <ph88^> | so that the description of the grammar is actually what the parser is parsing |
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| 22:07:54 | <Uniaika> | ph88^: I guess that would be the job of a parser generator. A tool to whom you feed a grammar, and which will produce an adequate parser for this grammar |
| 22:08:04 | <Uniaika> | in Haskell, Alex is the most famous parser generator |
| 22:08:30 | <monochrom> | Happy |
| 22:08:40 | <ph88^> | Uniaika, i have already an implementation in megaparsec which i don't want to throw away |
| 22:08:45 | <monochrom> | Alex is for the regexp-based tokenization stage. |
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| 22:08:57 | <monochrom> | To be sure, in all likelihood, you may need both. |
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| 22:09:21 | <monochrom> | So use Happy to generate megaparsec code? |
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| 22:09:31 | <Uniaika> | monochrom: oh yes, thanks |
| 22:09:36 | <ph88^> | is that possible even ?? |
| 22:09:41 | <monochrom> | I don't know. |
| 22:09:46 | <nshepperd> | i understand 'golden' tests to be a specific kind of test where you have checked in to source control 'expected' results of a function, often automatically generated by running the function, and when the function (intentionally) changes behaviour you validate the new output by diffing |
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| 22:11:46 | <sm[m]> | something to do with golden meaning good, or with some physical product's master template being made of gold , I thought. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characterization_test was interesting but didn't explain, maybe Michael Feathers' book does |
| 22:11:47 | <ph88^> | does alex/happy generate everything including data structures ? |
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| 22:13:21 | nshepperd | . o O ( ebnf :: Parser (Parser ParseTree) ) |
| 22:14:06 | <monochrom> | How often are you changing either your grammar or your parser, really? |
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| 22:14:56 | <ph88^> | for a few more months i would expect |
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| 22:15:15 | <monochrom> | No, how often. |
| 22:15:30 | <sm[m]> | "A related term I'm familiar with is 'golden data'. This refers to test data that doesn't change. This input is expected to produce the same (or very similar output) when used in a regression test. The term 'golden' probably comes from the fact that gold is a stable substance." |
| 22:15:33 | <monochrom> | Once every hour? Once every minute? How many hertz? |
| 22:15:39 | <ph88^> | can't say yet exactly how many times per week |
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| 22:17:00 | <monochrom> | OK so if the grammar changes then the test cases have to change too, not golden :) |
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| 22:17:55 | <ph88^> | ye the gramming is work in progress .. so is the parser |
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| 22:21:42 | <ph88^> | some answers here too https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/399519/how-to-keep-parser-code-and-grammar-definition-in-sync seems complicated |
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| 22:22:00 | <monochrom> | Yes it's complicated. |
| 22:22:37 | <monochrom> | Even more complicated when you also keep grammar and tests in sync, which you should, even more so than keeping grammar and code in sync. |
| 22:23:11 | <Uniaika> | ph88^: basically, complexity has to live somewhere: Either you bear this complexity on your own shoulders, or you offload it to something else, like "complex code" |
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| 22:24:00 | <monochrom> | And what about parser output? In all likelihood, parser output is an ADT you define. How about keeping that ADT in sync with all three of the above? |
| 22:24:57 | <monochrom> | It's rabbit hole. This is why I would lay back and just not worry. |
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| 22:26:14 | <ph88^> | i have the tendency to go into rabbit holes |
| 22:26:51 | <monochrom> | That's only a symptom. |
| 22:27:18 | <monochrom> | The root disease is perfection OCD especially when you are not ready for it. |
| 22:27:55 | <ph88^> | you think so ? |
| 22:28:15 | <monochrom> | It's safe to bet so. It's very common disease. |
| 22:29:33 | <nshepperd> | i think generating random positive (should-parse) test cases from ebnf would be somewhat practical at least. validStrings :: Parser (RuleName -> Gen Text) |
| 22:30:24 | <nshepperd> | negative test cases, though? i dunno |
| 22:30:50 | <monochrom> | Microsoft invented "fuzzing" for random negative test cases. |
| 22:31:11 | <monochrom> | tl;dr positive test cases with random mutations |
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| 22:32:40 | <monochrom> | caught a lot of parser security vulnerabilites (glorified bugs) with it. Perhaps more about how bad it is when people code in C. |
| 22:33:50 | <nshepperd> | but then, if you're writing ebnf in your documentation, why not accompany it with examples and test those |
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| 22:34:39 | <nshepperd> | personally i always find examples more useful than ebnf for figuring out syntax anyway |
| 22:35:52 | <monochrom> | Yes I would handwrite good examples too. |
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| 22:55:07 | <monochrom> | "Exercise": Write a quasiquoter that maps a grammar to an ADT and a parser. |
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| 22:56:40 | <monochrom> | "Part 2": also map to a pretty printer. Then a Gen instance for the ADT and the pretty printer form the basis of automatic random test generation. |
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| 23:19:38 | <ph88^> | does anyone know how to do putStrLn with rio prelude ?? i can't find io functions in the docs |
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| 23:24:57 | <monochrom> | http://hackage.haskell.org/package/rio-0.1.20.0/docs/doc-index-P.html |
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| 23:28:03 | <ph88^> | oh oh ... only for bytestring |
| 23:28:08 | <ph88^> | what about Text o_O |
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| 23:32:53 | <glguy> | You'd probably encode the text to a bytestring first using an encoding of your choosing |
| 23:33:30 | <glguy> | RIO is an instance of MonadIO, so just use whatever printing function you had in mind |
| 23:33:49 | <ph88^> | alright but i don't have normal Prelude anymore |
| 23:34:00 | <ph88^> | ok i will first encode then |
| 23:34:11 | <glguy> | the printing function for Text wasn't in Prelude anyway |
| 23:35:04 | <ph88^> | ya ok i was having a bit higher expectations for rio on this ^^ |
| 23:35:24 | <glguy> | oops :) |
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| 23:36:25 | <ph88^> | :P |
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| 23:37:56 | <monochrom> | I thought I saw lots of decoding choices there. |
| 23:38:10 | <monochrom> | Why are you using rio if you don't even know its design philosophy? |
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| 23:38:37 | <sm[m]> | maybe hPutBuilder ? I feel sure there must be some easier way though |
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| 23:39:57 | <glguy> | There's a class of applications where you really wouldn't be doing straight writes to stdout. You'd be more structured log messages and so on |
| 23:42:42 | <sm[m]> | ph88^ or maybe it's logInfo ? |
| 23:43:14 | <ph88^> | monochrom, gotta try it right :P |
| 23:45:11 | <sm[m]> | https://www.fpcomplete.com/haskell/library/rio/#logging discusses it |
| 23:46:18 | <ph88^> | do you know anything about the design philosophy monochrom ? |
| 23:46:20 | <ph88^> | thx sm[m] |
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| 23:46:36 | <monochrom> | No. But I can see it has one. |
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| 23:59:11 | <sm[m]> | ph88^ and setting RIO_VERBOSE=1 adds some nice detail to that output I see |
| 23:59:48 | <sm[m]> | not sure how it even does that (line numbers..) |
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