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Logs on 2021-02-10 (freenode/#haskell)

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00:14:40 <Squarism> I dont imagine there are constructor synonyms? Sounds like a bad feature but I would need it now. =D
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00:15:05 <glguy> pattern synonyms
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00:15:43 <glguy> but I don't know quite what constructor synonym means to you
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00:43:59 <maerwald> monochrom: rio has a design philosophy?
00:44:01 <Squarism> glguy, i guess "function" was what I was after. =D
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00:46:00 <monochrom> Do take a close look at pattern synonyms. It can cover both matching and construction.
00:46:27 <Squarism> oh ok.
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01:54:59 <zebrag> Natural transform with every component invertible, say in Set. Should that lead to natural isomorphism?
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01:59:14 <monochrom> Guiding question: Can you show that the inverses are natural tranformations too?
01:59:33 <monochrom> err I guess s/are natural transformations/is a natural transformation/
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02:03:01 <zebrag> Actually, no I don't. But I feel better having asked the question.
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02:09:00 <monochrom> Suggestion: It works out. Just do algebra.
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02:14:08 <kw> How does one make the `IsString` instance for `UTF8 ByteString` (from utf8-string) usable?
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02:15:30 <kw> I'm getting an error that there is no such instance, which I assume is because the `UTF8Bytes` multi-parameter type class isn't inferring the `Int` "index" type.
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02:17:07 <zebrag> monochrom: Thanks a lot, I'll do that.
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02:17:57 <glguy> kw: why do you need utf8-string?
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02:26:11 <zebrag> monochrom: Obviously it worked immediately. What was I thinking.
02:26:57 <monochrom> :)
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02:29:06 <glguy> Asking because I made that package because about 13 years ago (don't remember exactly) GHC didn't have the UTF-8 support it has now
02:29:34 <glguy> But I haven't needed it for a long time
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02:39:38 <kw> @glguy To combine normalized UTF-8 encoded string without denormalizing them.
02:39:38 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
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02:50:16 <kw> Guess the simple solution is to make a concrete newtype.
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02:52:14 <zebrag> The functor represented by `C(_,Bool)` must be the functor mapping `a` to the set of subsets of `a`.
02:53:45 <zebrag> Which shouldn't be an algebraic type though
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03:36:36 <koz_> Does parsec not support GHC 9?
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03:37:16 <koz_> According to the cabal file on its Github, it should, but according to Hackage, it doesn't.
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03:46:24 <iqubic> Wait?!? GHC 9 exists now?
03:47:06 <koz_> iqubic: It's been out for a while.
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03:47:36 <koz_> https://www.haskell.org/ghc/blog/20210204-ghc-9.0.1-released.html
03:47:53 <iqubic> that's says it was released on the 4th of February
03:48:08 <koz_> I would class nearly a week as 'a while'.
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03:56:20 <jared-w> It's not on chocolatey, and cabal v3.4 isn't even out yet. It's barely out and still in an interim state of "released", really. Stackage LTS also only got support for GHC 8.10... two weeks ago.
03:56:45 <koz_> What Stackage do and don't do shouldn't be relevant on this. Their LTSes trail anyway.
03:57:12 <koz_> Good to know it's not on Chocolatey though.
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04:00:00 <davean> jared-w: its in the review queue on chocolatey
04:00:05 <davean> jared-w: we have to wait for their processing
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04:00:41 <jared-w> Really I'm just saying that "a while" is quite relative :)
04:01:17 <koz_> jared-w: I never implied otherwise. Hence the part where I said "_I_ would class ...".
04:01:17 <jared-w> davean: ah sweet. I didn't realize it was in the review queue. Is there a way to view that if you don't maintain the package?
04:01:28 <davean> I don't believe so
04:02:43 <jared-w> Ah well. Not the end of the world. I just merged GHC 9.0 support to the haskell/actions/setup github action today and ended up hacking in a temporary alias of '9.0.1 -> 9.0.1-rc5' for Chocolatey since I had no idea how long it would be until it was available
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04:03:11 <jared-w> koz_: that's fair. I read that as a "royal I" at first for some reason
04:03:11 <davean> as a backup maintainer they spam me constantly though!
04:03:24 <koz_> jared-w: Do you know much about Github Actions? I'm getting weird caching fails and would appreciate the input of someone who knows what they're on about.
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04:03:42 <jared-w> I wrote that action so I can probably help you out :p got a link?
04:03:53 <koz_> https://github.com/kozross/text-ascii/blob/dev/.github/workflows/haskell.yml
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04:04:15 <koz_> This is heavily cribbed and hacky, but basically, I'm getting caching of the deps for text-ascii, but _not_ cabal-docspec.
04:04:28 <koz_> This causes build times to balloon from ~6m to ~16m.
04:04:45 <jared-w> davean: of course! It's not a true enterprise project if they're not dumping too many emails on those who don't need it and too few emails on those who do :p
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04:05:15 <koz_> jared-w: It's all about that in Windows (C) (R) Visual (C) (R) Open Source (C) (R)
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04:05:58 <jared-w> Embrace Extend MakeItShite right? Is that how it goes?
04:06:10 <koz_> jared-w: They're ahead of the curve then.
04:07:34 <jared-w> koz_: you're the first person I've ever seen to actually use the cabal-exe output from haskell actions.
04:07:51 <koz_> jared-w: Because otherwise, it's not findable in the subdir.
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04:07:55 <koz_> (I tried)
04:08:20 <jared-w> ... odd. It should, theoretically, be just magically available in your path. Emphasis on theory
04:08:39 <koz_> Yeah, in theory a lot of things should happen.
04:09:00 <koz_> Such as 'cabal new-install not blowing up due to symlinking by default on a platform that doesn't support it and not installing into cabal's store'.
04:09:12 <koz_> But yet those are just two of the gorehacks I've had to deploy.
04:09:40 <koz_> There's a reason why every step marked 'if: runner.os == 'Windows' looks like a fever dream.
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04:10:31 <davean> I really wish cabal would be willing to just tell me the executable's path, instead I use install as a hack
04:10:53 <jared-w> Interesting. So the first thing that jumps out at me is the cabal cache step. You cache the cabal store and the --only-dependencies step says "up to date" (which is expected with a full cache hit and no "weird" dependencies)
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04:11:24 <koz_> jared-w: Yeah, and the cache keeps saying it hits, but the cabal-docspec rebuild triggers anyway.
04:11:42 <koz_> That's why I can't make heads or tails of this.
04:12:09 <jared-w> However, new-install is not actually equivalent to new-build. It uses the result of v2-sdist to build and has constantly caused me headaches, spurious rebuilds, and such
04:12:25 <koz_> Can you suggest how I can do this with new-build instead?
04:12:43 <koz_> As long as I can _somehow_ reliably get the executable path, I'm fine with whatever gory hacks.
04:13:09 <jared-w> cabal-docspec is also locally vendored onto the disk so it'll always appear in `dist-newstyle` rather than the global store. You'd have to use remote-repository-http (or whatever the fuck it is) to actually get it to build and get cached in cabal's global store.
04:13:29 <jared-w> Even then, that behavior is only reliable with cabal v3.4. *sigh*
04:13:41 <koz_> Is latest not 3.4 as-yet?
04:14:11 <koz_> remote-repository-http refers to what sorry?
04:14:31 <jared-w> nope. It's v3.2 because v3.4 is not released yet and if I defaulted it to 3.4 it would start downloading cabal for everyone on linux and macOS from oleg's personal server and completely DDOS the shit out of it and break github actions for 90%+ of people out there
04:15:18 <jared-w> sorry, I meant `source-repository-package` it's a horribly unintuitive name and I can never remember it: https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-project.html#specifying-packages-from-remote-version-control-locations
04:15:37 <koz_> jared-w: Wait, how would I use source-repository-package in this case?
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04:16:17 <koz_> Would I need a cabal.project spelling this in text-ascii's repo?
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04:17:23 <jared-w> https://github.com/kozross/text-ascii/blob/dev/.github/workflows/haskell.yml#L49 if you add "dist-newstyle" to the cache here you should hopefully start getting fuller cache hits for cabal-docspec. Yes, text-ascii would have a cabal.project specifying cabal-docspec as a source-repository-package. I've seen this commonly done by creating the cabal.project in CI (or appending to it) if you don't need it during local dev
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04:17:50 <koz_> Also, I now realize who you are, and your avvy looks _excellent_. :P
04:18:11 <koz_> Let me try the dist-newstyle addition.
04:18:16 <jared-w> *glorious hair flip* aww shucks
04:18:23 <koz_> Just like, that alone? I don't need to do any ./ or whatevs?
04:18:32 <koz_> And dist-newstyle would be per-directory no?
04:18:49 <koz_> So I'd also need to cache cabal-docspec's one?
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04:20:31 <jared-w> Depends on where the cabal.project is, what directory you're in, etc... But should be. If you create a cabal.project file in the root of text-ascii, it might cause cabal-docspec's dist-newstyle directory to get merged in with text-ascii's dist-newstyle...
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04:20:57 <koz_> OK, let me try a double-cache of the two dist-newstyles. If that works, I'm happy _enough_.
04:21:11 <koz_> Then I'll do the source-repository-package once 3.4 hits.
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04:21:24 <koz_> Thanks so much for that - it makes about a tonne more sense.
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04:22:12 <jared-w> It's worth trying the source-repository-package before 3.4 in case it actually works.
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04:22:26 <koz_> This is an easier hack, so I'll try it first.
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04:22:56 <jared-w> And if cabal-install is still causing spurious recompiles or cache miss nonsense due to it being ad-hoc/ill-defined and impossible to reason about, the "recommended" method is using `find` on dist-newstyle
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04:23:05 <koz_> Wait srsly?
04:23:09 <koz_> I guess I can do that too.
04:23:11 <jared-w> yeah...
04:23:14 <koz_> But let's see if the double-caching works.
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04:24:32 <jared-w> You can also replace the dev flag with a cabal.project file that specifies -Werror and it'll automatically get ignored in hackage because hackage doesn't care about your cabal.project opinions
04:24:53 <koz_> jared-w: I thought so too, then when I did 'cabal upload', it yelled at me.
04:24:58 <koz_> Ah, wait.
04:25:01 <koz_> Lol, OK then.
04:25:03 <koz_> Convenient.
04:25:09 <jared-w> weird... `cabal.project.local` would *definitely* do it then
04:25:27 <koz_> I think it was the cabal file, not the cabal.project file, it yelled about.
04:25:33 <koz_> Noted though - I might just do that.
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04:27:51 <davean> ctrl-Iyah,spaceit'll yell about the .cabal
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04:30:55 <jared-w> All of the haskell projects I do CI for use find. `find dist-newstyle -name cabal-docspec -type f` or for windows `find dist-newstyle -type f -name cabal-docspec.exe`
04:31:43 <jared-w> https://github.com/haskell/haskell-language-server/blob/master/.github/workflows/build.yml#L123
04:31:51 <koz_> I'll keep that in mind for the future then.
04:32:19 <jared-w> generally speaking the haskell-language-server CI files have ran headfirst into every single bullshit question you could ever have about wrangling cabal + CI together manually and solved it somehow
04:33:11 <koz_> LOL
04:33:27 <koz_> Good to know I'm not alone. I was scratching my head about this stuff a _lot_ last night.
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04:36:34 <jared-w> pffh, never mind on the cabal.project with cabal-extras. It won't work because it's missing peura.
04:37:00 <koz_> Lol, noted.
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04:37:45 <jared-w> and cabal-docspec is the reason you needed to run cabal configure -w path/to/ghc
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04:37:56 <koz_> Explain?
04:37:57 <jared-w> (I just tried it locally)
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04:39:14 <jared-w> cabal-extras is cloned to disk. So the `cabal.project` file is available at the git root and becomes the source of truth even in the cabal-docspec subdirectory. The cabal.project file specifies `with-compiler: ghc-8.8.4`
04:39:29 <jared-w> So cabal looks for the binary with the literal name `ghc-8.8.4` and falls over because it doesn't exist
04:39:45 <koz_> Oh ffs...
04:39:56 <koz_> That's an excellent catch.
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04:40:12 <koz_> I missed that because I don't have global GHCs at all on my dev machine.
04:40:17 <koz_> (so I -w everything)
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04:41:11 <jared-w> running cabal-configure -w ... creates cabal.project.local with the contents "with-compiler: /absolute/path/to/compiler" and... that'll work obviously since you're using the output of the haskell setup action and I always provide absolute paths exactly to prevent this bullshit :)
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04:41:34 <koz_> Well, this is good to know.
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04:41:44 <koz_> (and I appreciate both you and your work)
04:41:50 <jared-w> (you're welcome!)
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04:43:14 <koz_> OK, so that took about 20m. Let's see if we can reduce this.
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04:43:56 <jared-w> One thing you could do if you're feeling a bit hackish is to create a fake release in github for your repo that contains the binaries for cabal-docspec (on windows/linux/macos). Just upload-artifact things and then add it to a release manually rather than trying to make the release in CI
04:44:28 <jared-w> Then you have a stable URL you can use to just curl cabal-docspec down with and you get to completely avoid worrying about it for... a while
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04:45:49 <koz_> OK, something really wacky happened, but it's on a Mac runner, and they have weird nondeterminism, so I'll see if I can replicate.
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04:47:29 <koz_> OK wow.
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04:47:41 <koz_> That caching strat? The Ubuntu runners finish in less than _2_ minutes.
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04:47:48 <jared-w> noice
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04:47:55 <koz_> 10x CI lol.
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04:48:17 <jared-w> it should theoretically be as fast as incremental rebuilds locally are. In practice, a bit less, but not too bad
04:48:18 <koz_> ... Windows of course has to be the fly in the ointment.
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04:48:26 <jared-w> of course!
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04:49:14 <koz_> Does the Github Actions file format have line continuations?
04:49:18 <koz_> Something like \
04:49:38 <koz_> Because the line for installing cabal-docspec on Windows is long enough to take someone's eye out at this point.
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04:54:44 <koz_> jared-w: OK, this happened again. It's a non-deterministic fault AFAICT - am I wrong? https://github.com/kozross/text-ascii/runs/1868732836?check_suite_focus=true
04:55:04 <koz_> This is the weird part. https://github.com/kozross/text-ascii/runs/1868732836?check_suite_focus=true#step:14:15
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04:57:03 <koz_> OK yeah, it's consistent and I'm confused.
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05:01:13 <koz_> Could caching text-ascii's build products be the cause?
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05:10:35 <jared-w> https://github.com/kozross/text-ascii/blob/main/src/Text/Ascii.hs#L153 is it this?
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05:10:59 <jared-w> (doctests import Prelude.. and the module imports Control.Category..
05:11:01 <jared-w> )
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05:12:24 <jared-w> If that's not the case, my first suspicion is that TemplateHaskell + macOS + caching doesn't always play well (or really at all). Lots of weird dylib issues going on. In a compile you usually see the actual dylib issue but cabal-docspec might be masking the issue
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05:15:56 <koz_> I don't think it's that - it doesn't fail on anything other than MacOS.
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05:16:08 <koz_> So I think I might have to uncache dist-newstyle on MacOS.
05:16:14 <koz_> Yay, more special cases.
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05:23:26 <jared-w> I'll open up a PR really quick
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05:23:52 <jared-w> I tend to just do `cabal new-build || { cabal clean && cabal new-build; }` and that clears up the issue.
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05:24:05 <glguy> jared-w, what're you tackling tonight?
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05:24:21 <jared-w> CI pain. Like work, but not work ;)
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05:24:52 <glguy> Do you do much docker?
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05:25:17 <jared-w> Ah yeah, tons of it.
05:25:20 <glguy> if it's more than 0 (my level) I might have to pick your brain on the clock tomorrow :)
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05:26:16 <jared-w> feel free :) I've done more than my share of docker shenanigans.
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05:35:38 <jared-w> koz_: ayy so it turns out it was a one line change to get "real" doctest working and it seems to work the same way? So I could just use `build-tool-depends` behind a flag so that it (I think) wouldn't ever affect downstream dependency solving. That simplifies things quite a bit if it works for you
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05:40:56 <fresheyeball> hello out there
05:41:26 <fresheyeball> I am in a bad performance situation and need to track down bottlenecks
05:41:40 <fresheyeball> is there an easy way to time a pure function?
05:41:47 <fresheyeball> And I don't mean in ghci
05:42:00 <fresheyeball> I need to run the program, and get timings in the terminal
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05:48:42 <jared-w> criterion and a benchmark suite?
05:49:19 <fresheyeball> I am not looking to benchmark
05:49:47 <fresheyeball> I am debugging, and really just want to see how long functions take to run while I interact with the program
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05:50:44 <fresheyeball> this is so ugly
05:51:17 <fresheyeball> `trace (show $ unsafePerformIO getCurrentTime)`
05:52:55 <jared-w> looks like what I would do :) but I'm not a perf hunting expert for haskell by any means
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06:13:23 <koz_> jared-w: What do you mean by 'real' doctest? You mean the sol package?
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06:18:01 <fresheyeball> is there a foldl' analog for traverse?
06:18:15 <dibblego> @type foldlM
06:18:17 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Monad m) => (b -> a -> m b) -> b -> t a -> m b
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06:21:11 <jared-w> koz_: yeah
06:21:25 <koz_> jared-w: It will be a cold day in hell before I touch another sol package.
06:21:36 <koz_> I'd rather jump through these hoops.
06:21:54 <jared-w> (it's on hackage so `build-tool-depends` works like normal). That's fair.
06:21:59 <koz_> Oh would you look at that, Windows has the same problem!
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06:23:07 <koz_> At least the caching reduces rotations.
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06:24:16 <koz_> (well, speeds up, but yeah)
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06:28:50 <koz_> Woo, another giant rebuild, hopefully for the last time.
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06:30:02 <jared-w> the fallback keys should hopefully prevent mass rebuilds
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06:31:58 <koz_> Yeah, let's see if my own efforts amount to the same.
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06:32:10 <koz_> Annoyingly, the Ubuntu builds cache brilliantly.
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06:35:17 <koz_> OK, macOS no longer asplode.
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06:36:33 <jared-w> nice nice
06:37:10 <jared-w> koz_: relevant macos cabal issue because of course that's a thing: https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/7202
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06:38:16 <koz_> Lol, so 3.4 might fix this too?
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06:40:41 <koz_> OK, Windows worked too. Now to see how the caching goes.
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06:42:19 <koz_> OK, let's see if we can beat 20m.
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06:45:57 <koz_> Nope, Windows still doesn't like that caching argh.
06:46:05 <koz_> macOS is fine though?
06:46:41 <fresheyeball> my performance tuning exploration continues
06:46:55 <fresheyeball> I have been able to measure timings on my functions and found a bottleneck
06:47:06 <jared-w> koz_: hmmm
06:47:17 <fresheyeball> it's a recursive function
06:47:19 <koz_> Same kind of failure.
06:47:25 <fresheyeball> and worse it calls itself with traverse
06:47:41 <fresheyeball> however I see no obvious reason it should be THIS slow
06:47:47 <fresheyeball> this is insanely slow
06:48:03 <jared-w> Windows still broken eh? Odd
06:48:16 <koz_> https://github.com/kozross/text-ascii/runs/1869208691?check_suite_focus=true#step:14:15
06:48:33 <koz_> https://github.com/kozross/text-ascii/blob/dev/.github/workflows/haskell.yml
06:48:36 <koz_> Most current gore.
06:48:55 <fresheyeball> what can I do?
06:48:57 <MarcelineVQ> quadraticly slow?
06:49:04 <fresheyeball> I don't know
06:49:14 <koz_> fresheyeball: What's the function in question?
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06:49:50 <koz_> jared-w: The Windows build copies instead of symlinking, and does overwrites.
06:49:53 <koz_> Could this be the issue?
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06:50:10 <jared-w> Shouldn't be the issue, I think
06:50:25 <koz_> I can't really explain it any other way then.
06:50:39 <fresheyeball> https://gitlab.com/fresheyeball/Shpadoinkle/-/blob/master/backends/pardiff/Shpadoinkle/Backend/ParDiff.hs#L411
06:50:51 <koz_> The macOS builds work with this caching scheme, the Windows ones get the exact same problem.
06:51:35 <fresheyeball> right now, processing an html child list with 100000 nodes is taking about 2 seconds on my laptop
06:51:56 <fresheyeball> I am not doing anything especially expensive here
06:52:11 <fresheyeball> 100000 is not very much either I wouldn't think
06:52:47 <jared-w> ahh, koz_: try adding `--write-ghc-environment-files=always` to the cabal build of your text-ascii
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06:53:05 <koz_> jared-w: In which build? Or just YOLO all of them?
06:53:43 <koz_> I guess YOLO all of them it is.
06:53:46 <jared-w> if that doesn't work, I'm out of ideas for now. line 64 and 76
06:54:15 <jared-w> (the `cabal build --only-dependencies` and `cabal build --flags` lines)
06:54:29 <koz_> Let's see how this goes.
06:54:39 <jared-w> alrighty. Keep me updated; I'm off for the night :)
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06:54:46 <koz_> See ya! Thanks so much!
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06:58:19 <koz_> jared-w: Nope, Windows still blows up. Thanks for the help anyway.
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07:39:04 <olligobber> is there an extension to overload the space function application operator to other types?
07:39:22 <olligobber> I'm sick of putting so many copies of the same operator
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07:47:48 <dsal> Which operator?
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07:51:21 <MarcelineVQ> ​
07:52:07 <lortabac> olligobber: maybe you can make a quasi-quoter?
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07:53:52 <olligobber> dsal, ($$$) :: TypedLambda (a -> b) v -> TypedLambda a v -> TypedLambda b v
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07:56:13 <olligobber> lortabac, guess I'll read about template haskell
07:56:49 <lortabac> TBH I don't think it would be shorter than $$$
07:57:23 <olligobber> aww :(
07:57:35 <koz_> Dolla dolla dolla.
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08:12:18 <dexterfoo> are monad transformers still a good choice in 2021?
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08:16:13 <dminuoso> dexterfoo: A good choice what for?
08:18:00 <dexterfoo> for writing testable IO code.
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08:18:11 <dminuoso> That's not what transformers exist for.
08:18:29 <dminuoso> Were you perhaps thinking of writing mtl-style code?
08:18:36 <dexterfoo> yes
08:18:57 <dminuoso> Ah. Well, I guess the answer depends on who you ask.
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08:19:35 <koz_> I also am not sure what 'testable IO code' means.
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08:19:43 <koz_> IO code can be quite testable... with just IO.
08:19:49 <koz_> Depends what IO you're doing.
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08:21:46 <lortabac> also... https://www.parsonsmatt.org/2017/07/27/inverted_mocking.html
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08:23:57 <dexterfoo> i mean mockable IO
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08:28:28 <dminuoso> dexterfoo: If you want that kind of separation, there's generally two roads. There's the free monad road and mtl-style encoding
08:28:42 <dminuoso> Whether they are a good choice, you have to decide for yourself.
08:29:00 <dminuoso> They weren't replaced by a better alternative, at least in widespread use, recently, if that's what you're asking.
08:29:59 <dminuoso> (Or freer, even)
08:35:18 <dexterfoo> what about polysemy?
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08:39:27 <dminuoso> dexterfoo: polysemy is just a library around free monads, iuic.
08:40:11 <dminuoso> (Well, higher order free monads)
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08:40:41 <dexterfoo> ok thank. i think i will go with mtl-style
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08:56:27 <ph88^> is there an option in cabal to automatically import a source file for every module in my project ?
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09:00:31 <dminuoso> No.
09:00:58 <olligobber> unless the source file is prelude? hmm
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09:26:13 <dexterfoo> maybe you can use a custom Prelude
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10:08:46 <toast52> Hi, has cabal changed recently?
10:09:23 <toast52> I tried to run `cabal init` for the first time in a while, and it failed saying "Error: no package name provided"
10:09:39 <toast52> But I never remember having to provide a package name
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10:10:50 <merijn> toast52: Try "cabal init --interactive"
10:11:00 <merijn> toast52: I think 3.4 will revert back to interactive as default
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10:13:14 <toast52> okay I think the reason why it failed was because my current directory has the same name as an existing package on hackage?
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10:14:34 <toast52> It fails claiming no package name provided but when i specify the package name `cabal init -p <name>` it asks for confirmation whether I want to make a package with this name
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10:15:33 <merijn> hmm
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10:55:40 <olligobber> I'm trying to write template haskell, how do I turn a [Q [Dec]] into a Q [Dec]?
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10:57:06 <olligobber> ah, think I got it
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11:01:12 <olligobber> no?
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11:02:40 <olligobber> ah got it, fmap concat . sequenceA
11:03:03 <Rembane> :t fmap concat . sequenceA
11:03:04 <lambdabot> (Traversable t, Applicative f) => t (f [a]) -> f [a]
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11:06:18 <Rembane> I thought mapM could be used instead, which is why I did the type lookup. I was wrong. :)
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11:07:48 <ski> @type foldr (liftA2 (++)) (pure [])
11:07:49 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Applicative f) => t (f [a]) -> f [a]
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11:28:19 <olligobber> so now I have a Q [Dec], how do I use it?
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11:30:09 <olligobber> I want to export the definitions...
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11:35:45 <olligobber> I guess I can just export an Int -> Int -> Exp and require anyone using it to $() it
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11:36:01 <olligobber> I guess I can just export an Int -> Int -> Q Exp and require anyone using it to $() it
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11:36:09 <olligobber> oops forgot you can't edit messages on irc
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11:57:24 <dminuoso> olligobber: You cant add exports in template haskell, sadly.
11:57:53 <olligobber> right, but I did manage to get the functions that the template defines at the top level so I can export them
11:57:58 <dminuoso> olligobber: The usual trick is to have a separate module, in which you have no export list (such that the module exports everything). This is what you'd do in lens th for example.
11:58:09 <olligobber> ooh, good idea
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12:15:53 <olligobber> yay my first template haskell worked!
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12:41:41 <olligobber> and my second template haskell used all my ram: https://gist.github.com/olligobber/c97e9c97a7a5c0a4224506c67491feda
12:45:55 <merijn> olligobber: ಠ_ಠ
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12:46:30 <olligobber> I had to try it
12:46:38 <olligobber> I expected a stack overflow tbh
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12:46:49 <olligobber> or something
12:46:52 <merijn> Why?
12:47:19 <olligobber> that's what happens if you have an undecidable instance that takes infinite time to solve
12:47:32 <olligobber> so I just assumed haskell didn't ever infinite loop at compile time
12:47:44 <dminuoso> This is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike undecidable instances.
12:47:45 <merijn> olligobber: Technically it doesn't overflow
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12:47:58 <dminuoso> olligobber: TH is just Haskell code.
12:48:10 <merijn> olligobber: GHC's undecidable instances has a timer (max number of steps) after which it goes "eh...this is taking too long"
12:48:21 <merijn> olligobber: To prevent it from hanging indefinitely
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12:48:44 <dminuoso> olligobber: Think of TH as hooking right into the parsing stage of GHC. When GHC parses a TH splice, it *halts* the compiler, and then executes your arbitrary haskell code, and then grafts your splices back into the AST, and then the compiler resumes.
12:48:45 <merijn> olligobber: Template Haskell otoh is "just Haskell code" except it's output is "a Haskell AST that gets compiled"
12:49:00 <dminuoso> olligobber: Note here the "execute arbitarary haskell code" - it's just a haskell program!
12:49:07 <dminuoso> Ignore the fact that this happens *during* GHC.
12:49:13 <olligobber> cool
12:49:58 <dminuoso> (Perhaps one way to think of it, is as a sort of compiler plugin)
12:50:10 <merijn> olligobber: This also means you can do (stupid) things like "execute network/filesystem IO to fetch stuff during compile time"
12:50:42 <olligobber> oh god
12:50:59 <merijn> olligobber: It has it's uses
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12:51:15 <merijn> olligobber: For example, you can read a CSV file from disk and generate code from that
12:51:32 <dminuoso> In my opinion, you're better off with haskell-src-exts for such a use case.
12:51:51 <dminuoso> I'd *love* if I could ban IO from TH
12:51:57 <merijn> olligobber: Template Haskell is really just "what if our macro's where just arbitrary Haskell code?"
12:52:15 <olligobber> it's so cool
12:52:16 <merijn> Like, why write hacky stuff with the C preprocessor when you can just write hacky stuff in Haskell!
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12:52:34 <merijn> olligobber: otoh, you can also do neat tricks like:
12:52:38 <merijn> @hackage validated-literals
12:52:38 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/validated-literals
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12:53:32 <merijn> There's some examples in the github repo
12:53:47 <maralorn> Is there something like https://www.conventionalcommits.org/en/v1.0.0/ which is more tailored to Haskell projects/ PVP?
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12:54:07 <merijn> Probably not?
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12:55:54 <olligobber> merijn, that's also vv cool
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13:08:34 <jackmcbarn> /!\ this channel has moved to ##hamradio /!\
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13:10:07 <merijn> I wonder what kinda thing that's trying to exploit...
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13:11:14 <Guest62288> /!\ this channel has moved to #nyymit /!\
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13:11:23 <ablackackJl> /!\ this channel has moved to #nyymit /!\
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13:11:53 <nshepperd> :S
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13:12:33 <yushyin> Sigyn <3
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13:13:07 <meffete> /!\ this channel has moved to #nyymit /!\
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13:14:09 <Me4502ZK> /!\ this channel has moved to #nyymit /!\
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13:14:26 <nshepperd> are they just expecting people to believe the messages...?
13:14:31 <GorillaWarfarezR> /!\ this channel has moved to #nyymit /!\
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13:15:09 <olligobber> I've heard of some spammers pretending to advertise a channel so people get angry at the channel for advertising
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13:15:53 <nshepperd> that's a big brain move
13:16:54 <geekosaur> they're hitting every channel apparently
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13:19:09 <olligobber> I'm in a couple they aren't hitting
13:21:10 <nshepperd> it's nice to be unlisted
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13:27:52 <merijn> They are
13:28:38 <merijn> freenode has been surprisingly script kiddie free the past year
13:29:01 <dminuoso> Didn't we lose like half the channel last year?
13:29:05 <dminuoso> Or was that the year before?
13:29:28 <dminuoso> We used to have 1600 people, if memory serves right
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13:30:12 <geekosaur> we were around 1600 as recently as last week; not sure what happened
13:30:49 <kuribas> they moved to rust?
13:34:30 <Franciman> lulz
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14:08:01 <Axman6> maybe MAtrix went offline again...
14:08:07 <Axman6> Matrix*
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14:13:21 <tomsmeding> we're just above 1000 now, and #haskell has had around the same number of nicks every time I looked the last half year or so
14:13:40 <tomsmeding> geekosaur: if we had 1600 recently it must have been temporary
14:14:53 <merijn> No, there was a long period of >1600 a few years back
14:15:13 <merijn> but there was a netsplit or something that lost a bunch of lurkers
14:15:49 <geekosaur> wasn't that when the old fn admin's account was compromised and they redirected a bunch of channels into other channels?
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14:27:30 <timCF> Hello haskellers! I have a beginner generic question about applicative composition of different monads. For example, I have a 2 functions `getA :: Text -> m (Either Err A)` and `getB :: Text -> m (Either Err B)` and I want to compose it into something of type `m (Either Err (A, B))`. My first instinct is to use applicative, something like `(,) <$> getA x <*> getB y` but obviously I can't because of `m`. I
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14:27:36 <timCF> don't like do-notation, looks bulky. What are the other options?
14:28:50 <kuribas> timCF: you can use ExceptT to compose them.
14:28:53 <kuribas> :t ExceptT
14:28:54 <lambdabot> m (Either e a) -> ExceptT e m a
14:29:16 <dminuoso> runExceptT $ (,) <$> ExceptT (getA t1) <*> ExceptT (getB t2)
14:29:55 <dminuoso> Or, just use do-notation. I might prefer the later if its just an odd instance.
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14:30:18 <kuribas> or liftA2 (liftA2 (,))
14:30:21 <opqdonut> how about `liftA2 (,) <$> getA x <*> getB y` for that double-applicative-goodness
14:30:30 <kuribas> :t liftA2 (liftA2 (,))
14:30:30 <opqdonut> or what kuribas said
14:30:31 <lambdabot> (Applicative f1, Applicative f2) => f1 (f2 a) -> f1 (f2 b) -> f1 (f2 (a, b))
14:30:49 <opqdonut> the combination of liftA2 and <$> tickles my fancy somehow
14:30:51 <dminuoso> There comes a point where trying to be smart defeats readability
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14:31:02 <dminuoso> You will write it, and not understand what this does a month from now.
14:31:12 <dminuoso> At least with runExceptT/ExceptT it's clear
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14:32:01 <kuribas> nested liftA2 will apply the function nested, that seems quite clear.
14:32:03 <dminuoso> If you intermix liftA2 and <$>/<*>, it's clear that you're tapping into two separate applicative instances, and that requires much more mental stack and context awareness to know which instances are being used.
14:32:07 <kuribas> And if you have a good editor you can see the types.
14:32:14 <dminuoso> It's not quite clear, because you have to *know* the types involved.
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14:32:35 <dminuoso> But then again I generally dislike liftA2
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14:32:44 <kuribas> It depends on the context...
14:33:07 <dminuoso> Also, if it *needs* editor integration to be readable, then it's not good code style
14:33:19 <kuribas> A bit of verbosity can't hurt...
14:33:46 <kuribas> dminuoso: I am quite grateful for hackage showing types now...
14:33:50 <kuribas> in the source code I mean.
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14:35:12 <timCF> Cool, I'll take a look guys, thank! And do you know any "eager" version of "applicative"? Ideally I want to get `m (Either [Err] (A, B))` from my example, where left part of `Either` collects all the errors from expressions
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14:35:55 <kuribas> timCF: collecting errors has nothing to do with lazyness.
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14:36:22 <geekosaur> that's not up to laziness or up to Applicative, it's up to replacements for Either. which do exist.
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14:36:29 <timCF> well, normal applicative is kinda "lazy" - it stops argument evaluation after 1st error occurs
14:36:32 <dminuoso> timCF: Validation
14:36:35 <dminuoso> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/either-5.0.1.1/docs/Data-Either-Validation.html
14:36:55 <geekosaur> right, that's the one I was trying to recall. there are also fancier ones
14:37:22 <kuribas> you can use partitionEithers
14:37:33 <kuribas> there is These also...
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14:37:46 <dminuoso> Well, for These the monad transformer is ChronicleT, which is probably what geekosaur meant
14:38:02 <timCF> kuribas: yes, I'm currently using it with combination of do-notation
14:38:21 <timCF> dminuoso: thanks, I'll take a look to the lib
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14:39:48 <olligobber> :t getCompose . liftA2 (,) . Compose
14:39:50 <lambdabot> error:
14:39:50 <lambdabot> Variable not in scope: getCompose :: (f0 b0 -> f0 (a0, b0)) -> c
14:39:50 <lambdabot> error:
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14:40:37 <olligobber> wait that won't work
14:41:03 <kuribas> olligobber: you cannot compose monads
14:41:13 <kuribas> olligobber: you need to use a monad transformer
14:41:13 <olligobber> you can compose applicatives though
14:41:27 <olligobber> right?
14:41:30 <dminuoso> Yes.
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14:41:45 <dminuoso> olligobber: Or to be more precise, you can not compose *arbitrary* monads.
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14:42:43 <dminuoso> You can compose exactly those, for which you have a particular `swap :: (Monad m, Monad n) :: m (n (m (n a))) -> m (m (n (n a)))` such that using this monad diagrams commute
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14:43:06 <dminuoso> the type signature is not accurate, Im not sure how to describe it well.
14:43:32 <olligobber> `swap :: (Monad m, Monad n) => m (n (m (n a))) -> m (m (n (n a)))` ?
14:43:35 <dminuoso> Ah I guess `swap :: M (N (M (N a))) -> M (M (N (N a)))` for some appropriate choices of M and N
14:43:41 <dminuoso> That is better
14:43:42 <olligobber> yah
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14:43:56 <dminuoso> So whenever you have such a swap, you can compose N and M
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14:44:09 <dminuoso> (Assuming monad laws are satisfied with it)
14:44:16 <olligobber> anyway, I wasn't even doing anything that required a monad instance of Compose
14:44:32 <olligobber> :t liftA2
14:44:33 <lambdabot> Applicative f => (a -> b -> c) -> f a -> f b -> f c
14:44:46 <olligobber> :t liftM2
14:44:48 <lambdabot> Monad m => (a1 -> a2 -> r) -> m a1 -> m a2 -> m r
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14:46:31 <olligobber> :m Data.Functor.Compose
14:46:36 <olligobber> no?
14:46:50 <olligobber> > import Data.Functor.Compose
14:46:53 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: error: <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘import’
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14:46:57 <olligobber> :(
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14:49:27 <olligobber> \x y -> getCompose $ liftA2 (,) (Compose x) (Compose y) :: (Applicative f, Applicative g) => f (g a) -> f (g b) -> f (g (a, b))
14:49:38 <geekosaur> olligobbler, use yahb
14:49:44 <olligobber> @pf \x y -> getCompose $ liftA2 (,) (Compose x) (Compose y)
14:49:44 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: pl bf
14:50:05 <olligobber> I give up
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14:50:07 <olligobber> goodnight
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14:51:03 <geekosaur> % import Data.Functor.Compose
14:51:04 <yahb> geekosaur:
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15:10:23 <[exa]> Are there any good/practical/widely used monad examples where >> is defined differently than >>=, e.g. for optimization reasons?
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15:14:01 <dminuoso> [exa]: []
15:14:25 <dminuoso> Oh wait
15:14:34 <dminuoso> I misread
15:15:46 <[exa]> like, I could ask more precisely....what are the monads where it's useful to explicitly define >> rather than relying on `a >> b = a >>= const b`
15:17:16 <kuribas> I'd think ghc would be smart enough to inline it...
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15:17:38 <kuribas> I cannot think of a monad where that's not trivial...
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15:22:40 <[exa]> hm, good idea-- perhaps some parts where it's actually not trivial to inline it, like builtins or a FFI call of a function that has a resultless variant
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15:25:11 <lortabac> isn't an ad-hoc (>>) **always** an optimization? (because it lets you save a lambda)
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15:27:11 <merijn> lortabac: You're assuming that the lambda isn't trivially optimised away
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15:28:07 <merijn> [exa]: Actually, I think I see a case where it might optimise
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15:28:54 <merijn> [exa]: Consider "data Tree a = Leaf a | Branch (Tree a) (Tree a)" where the monad instance basically replace every Leaf with a new sub tree
15:29:46 <merijn> i.e. "return x = Leaf x" and "Branch b1 b2 >>= f = Branch (b1 >>= f) (b2 >>= f); Leaf x >>= f = f x"
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15:30:08 <merijn> [exa]: With >>= you end up computing a new, unique subtree for every leaf
15:30:42 <merijn> With >> you can optimise, compute the right-hand once and share it across all leaves
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15:31:03 <merijn> Although I guess "const b" has the same effect, I guess...
15:31:05 <merijn> hmm
15:31:28 <merijn> I'm out of ideas, then! :p
15:31:31 <lortabac> merijn: I asked because I don't know
15:32:08 <lortabac> which optimization makes the lambda disappear?
15:32:10 <merijn> lortabac: I mean, the default implementation of (>>) is just "a >> b = a >>= \_ -> b"
15:32:20 <kuribas> lortabac: I think (>>) is more to save some typing...
15:32:30 <merijn> lortabac: So unless someone defines a custom >> then >>= isn't an optimisation at all :p
15:32:43 <merijn> eh, s/>>=/>>
15:33:00 <[exa]> yeah it seems that proper laziness makes it equivalent in all cases that don't contain something totaly unhaskellish
15:33:25 <merijn> lortabac: If >>= is inlined you can probably eliminate the lambda because the application is fixed
15:34:46 <tomsmeding> what if your monad is unknown, i.e. you get the methods via a dictionary?
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15:36:38 <tomsmeding> but then with laziness, the right-hand side will still only be computed once because of the const
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18:08:58 <infinisil> Hey, I'm having a couple compilation issues due to cabal resolving the base16-bytestring package to version 1.x. I want to try making it resolve to version 0.x instead
18:09:28 <infinisil> However, base16-bytestring isn't actually a direct dependency of my project. Rather it's a transitive one
18:09:43 <merijn> infinisil: What's the compilation issue?
18:09:47 <infinisil> Can I still add a version constraint to it somehow? And how would I do that?
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18:10:30 <merijn> You can via some flag that I forgot probably "--constraint" or something
18:10:43 <infinisil> merijn: Its decode function changed the type signature (and function)
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18:11:03 <infinisil> And https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hexstring and another package depends on the old decode function
18:11:05 <merijn> infinisil: Sounds like one of your dependencies fucked up it's bounds
18:11:19 merijn sighs
18:11:24 <merijn> No upper-bounds at all
18:11:45 <infinisil> (it's a rather old package, I'm surprised it worked at all until base16-bytestring 1.x came along)
18:12:14 <monochrom> Yeah, --constraint or put it in cabal.project.local or something
18:13:14 <infinisil> Ahhh this here https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-project.html#solver-configuration-options
18:13:16 <infinisil> Nice thanks
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18:15:39 <infinisil> Well of course, another dependency requires >=1.x *surprised pikachu face*
18:15:45 <yushyin> :D
18:16:25 <infinisil> So I guess I'll try to patch all libraries that don't work with the new version
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18:17:17 <merijn> infinisil: Open a ticket on the hexstring repo to make a new revision that puts in an upperbound and (if there's no quick response another one referencing the issue here: https://github.com/haskell-infra/hackage-trustees)
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18:18:11 <infinisil> Ah nice
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18:18:30 <merijn> So that cabal can at least recognise that doesn't work
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18:19:18 <infinisil> I do actually have a patch to make it work with the new version, was hoping I could get around using that though by just using the older base16-bytestring
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18:32:09 <infinisil> https://github.com/solatis/haskell-hexstring/issues/3
18:32:18 <infinisil> Though I wouldn't be surprised to get no response
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18:33:01 <merijn> infinisil: https://wiki.haskell.org/Taking_over_a_package :p
18:33:55 <infinisil> The package is so trivial that I'd probably rather just implement this in some util module
18:34:08 <infinisil> Also, there's probably more up-to-date packages with the same functionality out there
18:34:13 <merijn> infinisil: But that leaves the rest of the world broken! :p
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18:34:32 <infinisil> Hehe, I should take over the package, only to deprecate it
18:36:38 <merijn> infinisil: tbh, simple small packages are fairly little maintenance effort. Basically, you bump the bounds and make a revision when a new GHC comes out and that's about it :p
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18:39:50 <zzz> i can't seem to use lambdabot with the -e flag. am i missing something?
18:40:18 <zzz> (on the command line)
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18:44:32 <zzz> i'm getting: Plugin `eval' failed with: mueval: readCreateProcessWithExitCode: runInteractiveProcess: exec: does not exist (No such file or directory)
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19:04:33 <clmg> has anyone used obelisk? https://github.com/obsidiansystems/obelisk
19:04:35 <clmg> what did they think?
19:04:55 <clmg> (i'm looking for a web framework with a good type checker)
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19:49:22 <jil> hello
19:50:41 swarmcollective waves
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19:57:44 <swarmcollective> Hello __minoru_shirae, I pushed the code using the IORefs for inter thread communication to github. Are you still interested in seeing the working solution?
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19:59:36 <swarmcollective> __minoru__shirae ... https://github.com/calledtoconstruct/lambdabot/blob/patches/lambdabot-dashboard-plugins/src/Lambdabot/Plugin/Dashboard/Service.hs
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20:03:16 <jil> I'm trying to rewritte iterate_ using the unfold function as in https://paste.debian.net/1184974/ but I get an error I don't understand.
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20:03:59 <jil> Expected type t0 a0 -> t0 a0, Actual type: a -> a
20:04:12 <jil> what is the difference between the tow ?
20:04:17 <jil> two ?
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20:05:03 <davean> jil: well, t a is not in any way a
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20:05:15 <davean> a is a parameter to the type "function" t
20:05:33 <davean> so the function is on some sort of t
20:06:00 <jil> it's not clear
20:06:07 <davean> No, thats very clear
20:06:26 <davean> t a is only related to a in so much as you've passed the idea of a to t
20:06:27 <jil> understand for me ..obviously.
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20:06:50 <merijn> jil: Consider "Maybe Int" vs "Int"
20:06:59 <jil> ok
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20:07:27 <merijn> "t a -> t a" could correspond to "Maybe Int -> Maybe Int" (t = Maybe, a = Int), but *not* "Int -> Int"
20:07:33 <jil> t0 a0 is a type ?
20:07:40 <davean> yes
20:07:54 <jil> 't0 a0'
20:08:10 <davean> 't a' is the type resulting from applying a to t
20:08:36 <merijn> jil: null isn't in your paste?
20:09:42 <jil> it is. merijn
20:10:37 <davean> You use it, but it isn't defined.
20:10:45 <jil> applying a to t ?? I did not expect 'a' to be something that could be applied.
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20:12:21 <davean> Refering to merijn's example, Maybe is a function for defining a type, it takes a type and produces a resulting type
20:12:25 <davean> Int is a type
20:12:33 <davean> thus thats a thing Maybe can take
20:12:43 <davean> Thus Int applied to Maybe is Maybe Int
20:12:54 <monochrom> ahem applying t to a
20:13:02 <davean> er, sorry, yes
20:13:26 <monochrom> plug a into t
20:13:33 <davean> Since it can only produce one result from such an application we don't need another name for it, the application its self will do
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20:25:51 <__minoru__shirae> swarmcollective: awesome, thanks. so you can make an IORef out of anything by just wrapping it with it?
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20:36:44 <ephemient> :t newIORef
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20:36:45 <lambdabot> error:
20:36:45 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: newIORef
20:36:45 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant ‘newSTRef’ (imported from Data.STRef)
20:36:54 <ephemient> :t Data.IORef.newIORef
20:36:56 <lambdabot> a -> IO (GHC.IORef.IORef a)
20:37:51 <ephemient> __minoru__shirae: forall a. ↑
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20:38:49 <swarmcollective> Correct, it is only sharing a reference (pointer) to the thing. As long as you use it as a one way communication, it should be quite stable.
20:39:22 <merijn> __minoru__shirae: You don't really "make" something into an IORef, it's more "you make an IORef and give it an initial value to point too"
20:40:01 <merijn> But you can make IORef for any type of value, yes
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20:40:40 <merijn> IORef's aren't great for communicating between threads, though. They have *super* finnicky consistency guarantees
20:41:41 <swarmcollective> I'm going to look into MVar for cases where I need to guard against overlapping operations. For instance, I might want to share a list of objects. Each time the web service thread needs to request an action on the lambdabot thread, it will add to the list. The lambdabot thread can check for events, process them, and clear the list. Since both these operations involve modification of the list,
20:41:43 <swarmcollective> an MVar "should" be used.
20:41:58 <swarmcollective> Though, IORef and semaphore may work, it would be more complicated.
20:42:30 <merijn> swarmcollective: Wouldn't a Chan work better?
20:42:37 <ephemient> MVar a is basically an IORef (Maybe a) with synchronization
20:42:51 <swarmcollective> Probably! :) I'll look at Chan before diving into that feature.
20:43:08 <merijn> swarmcollective: "mvar with list" sounds like a super hacky and inconvenient alternative version of a channel :p
20:43:30 <merijn> swarmcollective: Chan is basically a wrapper around a linked list of MVars
20:43:50 <swarmcollective> merijn, excellent! That sounds perfect.
20:43:53 <merijn> swarmcollective: So you can have 1 (or more) threads putting values into the Chan and then have 1 (or more) threads reading values from the Chan
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20:46:28 <ephemient> Chan probably does the double-list thing to get amortized O(1) FIFO
20:46:31 <swarmcollective> "Throws BlockedIndefinitelyOnMVar when the channel is empty and no other thread holds a reference to the channel."
20:46:32 <ephemient> but yeah
20:46:47 <swarmcollective> ^^^ So, no need to kill thread, or send a sigint.
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20:48:02 <glguy> ephemient: No, Chan doesn't do the double list thing, it uses mutable cells to build its structure
20:48:32 <glguy> ephemient: Chan is complicated so that it can support duplication of a channel so that two readers can read all the messages individually
20:48:50 <swarmcollective> Since the web service only needs to know the current state and not every intermediate state, IORef makes sense for that side. Sending a request from the web service back to the core of the lambdabot seems like a use-case for Chan.
20:48:51 <glguy> TChan copies this behavior, but TQueue (both from STM) use the double list implementation you mention
20:48:52 <ephemient> ooh, tricksies. it would need a MVar of MVar to pull that off... but I guess that's fine
20:50:28 <swarmcollective> glguy, would you recommend TChan, TQueue, or Chan over the others for the above use-case?
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20:51:32 <merijn> ephemient: No
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20:51:54 <merijn> swarmcollective: Oh, I have a library with closable Chan :p
20:52:37 <ephemient> hmm. I guess I can't imagine how it works, then. might have to into it myself...
20:52:42 <merijn> Which also solves the broadcast issue that TChan fixes, but Chan doesn't
20:52:58 <merijn> ephemient: Simon Marlow's Parallel and Concurrent Haskell books covers how it works
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20:53:18 <merijn> ephemient: That's the explanation I based my own channel code on (together with Control.Concurrent.MVar)
20:53:21 <merijn> eh
20:53:23 <merijn> Control.Concurrent.Chan
20:53:58 <merijn> swarmcollective: It's probably use TVar/MVar over IORef, tbh
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20:54:09 <tdammers> big caveat with (T)Chan, btw.: these little critters aren't bounded, so if the producer is faster than the consumers, it will just eat up all your RAM and then bring your computer to a grinding swapping halt
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20:55:26 <swarmcollective> merijn, I've been wanting to read that book. It is / was accessible online, IIRC.
20:55:38 <merijn> tdammers: I mostly use them as job queues, tbh
20:56:54 <swarmcollective> tdammers, good to know. For now, my use-case is low volume (human on the producer side).
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20:58:21 <swarmcollective> merijn, thanks for the Closable mention. I will include a signal to shutdown, so it is graceful.
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20:59:38 <swarmcollective> As far as I can tell, the scotty thread will require the sending of a sigint (or similar) to be graceful-ish. I'm currently using killthread, but sigint is on my to-do list.
21:00:25 <merijn> swarmcollective: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/broadcast-chan ;)
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21:01:49 <merijn> sigint is cursed
21:02:08 <merijn> In fact, all Haskell signal handling is cursed and will be until I get around to making it uncursed
21:02:09 <swarmcollective> Ahhh! When you said "I have a library", I thought you were indicating that it was, for whatever reason, proprietary. :D Thanks for the link!
21:03:14 <merijn> I should probably update my stuff for GHC 9.0
21:03:25 merijn puts it on the todo list >.>
21:03:26 <swarmcollective> merign, "Portability: haha" <-- that's great!
21:04:23 <__minoru__shirae> swarmcollective: here is a link to the "Parallel and Concurrent Haskell" book: https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/parallel-and-concurrent/9781449335939/pr02.html
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21:05:20 <swarmcollective> __minoru__shirae That's it! Excellent and thank you!
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21:09:49 <__minoru__shirae> swarmcollective: you can navigate using table of contents at https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/parallel-and-concurrent/9781449335939/
21:10:20 <__minoru__shirae> (the "start free trial" button may be misleading)
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21:14:52 <my_name_is_not_j> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/51581150/what-does-t-a-mean-in-type-signature-in-haskell
21:14:58 <my_name_is_not_j> For the above, I am wondering why `Prelude> all id Nothing` returns `True`
21:15:19 <my_name_is_not_j> `Prelude> all id []` seems to return `True` as well.... hmmmmm
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21:16:56 <my_name_is_not_j> Shouldn't they correspond to False?
21:17:31 <monochrom> http://www.vex.net/~trebla/homework/empty.html
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21:24:53 <ephemient> :t all id `asAppliedTo` Nothing
21:24:54 <lambdabot> Maybe Bool -> Bool
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21:25:38 <ephemient> > map (all id) [Nothing, Just False, Just True]
21:25:40 <lambdabot> [True,False,True]
21:26:06 <ephemient> my_name_is_not_j: ↑
21:26:31 <my_name_is_not_j> <monochrom "http://www.vex.net/~trebla/homew"> Thank you!! This helped!
21:27:01 <my_name_is_not_j> Thanks everyone
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21:27:41 <my_name_is_not_j> The other thing I was wondering here is why `Maybe` types are part of `Foldable`?? For lists this makes sense since you can apply `foldl` and `foldr` on it, but it doesn't seem to make sense (to me) why `Maybe` types are foldable...
21:28:30 <my_name_is_not_j> `Maybe` types either hold 1 value (Just x) or nothing at all (Nothing)
21:28:31 <my_name_is_not_j> Why the need to fold over them?
21:28:40 <ephemient> they're really short lists ;)
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21:29:03 <ephemient> it's not that you want it on Maybe specifically, but that you can write generic code for any Foldable that will also work on Maybe
21:29:19 <koz_> Maybe a can be thought of as a list that's either empty or contains precisely one element.
21:30:13 <my_name_is_not_j> OK
21:30:26 <koz_> Kinda like how Identity a is a list that always has exactly one element.
21:30:44 <koz_> And 'Either e a' is a list that has zero or one element, plus possibly some jank Foldable doesn't care about.
21:31:00 <my_name_is_not_j> Identity a?
21:31:20 <koz_> Yep.
21:31:22 <my_name_is_not_j> I get an error when I do `:i Identity`
21:31:24 <koz_> There is such a thing.
21:31:30 <koz_> It's in Data.Functor.Identity
21:31:35 <koz_> You probably don't have that module imported.
21:31:36 <my_name_is_not_j> ohhh
21:32:04 <my_name_is_not_j> OK makes sense, thanks !
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22:09:09 <hseg> hey, trying to set a breakpoint in a where clause, ghci complains that "no breakpoint found" when i try by-line syntax and "parse error" when i try qualification syntax
22:09:28 <hseg> (i.e. :break line and :break top.clause, resp)
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22:15:56 <koz_> jared-w: First of all, you are the hero we don't deserve. Second of all - you managed to solve text-ascii's woes?
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22:30:46 <swarmcollective> :t Data.Functor.Identity
22:30:47 <lambdabot> error:
22:30:47 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘Data.Functor.Identity’
22:30:47 <lambdabot> No module named ‘Data.Functor’ is imported.
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22:30:57 <koz_> % :t Identity
22:30:57 <yahb> koz_: a -> Identity a
22:31:03 <koz_> % :i Identity
22:31:04 <yahb> koz_: type Identity :: * -> *; newtype Identity a = Identity {runIdentity :: a}; -- Defined in `Data.Functor.Identity'; instance Applicative Identity -- Defined in `Data.Functor.Identity'; instance Eq a => Eq (Identity a) -- Defined in `Data.Functor.Identity'; instance Functor Identity -- Defined in `Data.Functor.Identity'; instance Monad Identity -- Defined in `Data.Functor.Identity'; instance Monoid a =>
22:31:20 <swarmcollective> Thanks!
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22:31:41 <jaan> Hi! Quick unicode question for more experienced Haskellers. I want to read a unicode character into T.Text straight from the source code.
22:31:43 <jaan> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/OqqU8YT7
22:32:14 <koz_> jaan: You can turn on OverloadedStrings and just write the literal.
22:32:15 <jaan> String -> Text doesn't seem to make sense since String can't represent unicode in the first place. What are my options here?
22:32:21 <koz_> Uhh.
22:32:25 <koz_> String 100% can.
22:32:31 <koz_> Char is a Unicode code point.
22:32:39 <koz_> So String can represent 'Unicode' just fine.
22:32:56 <jaan> utf16*
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22:33:02 <koz_> Doesn't matter.
22:33:22 <koz_> % :t "😺"
22:33:22 <yahb> koz_: [Char]
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22:33:36 <koz_> % :set -XOverloadedStrings
22:33:36 <yahb> koz_:
22:33:40 <koz_> % :t "😺"
22:33:40 <yahb> koz_: IsString p => p
22:33:51 <koz_> IsString Text is most definitely a thing.
22:34:33 <koz_> So if you're dealing with literals, I'd say the easiest option is 'enable OverloadedStrings'.
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22:46:42 <aramend> used this together with setLocaleEncoding and it worked, thanks 😽
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22:46:55 <koz_> You're welcome, nyan.
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22:48:47 <aramend> But I was under the false assumption that Data.Text is needed for UTF encodings and that you can't use String. If it is not required, is it just recommended then?
22:48:58 <koz_> aramend: String is a linked list of Char.
22:49:04 <koz_> It _works_, but it's not very efficient.
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22:49:20 <koz_> Text, on the other hand, is UTF-16 encoded and packed.
22:49:25 <koz_> Which is much _more_ efficient.
22:49:32 <koz_> Capability-wise, they are equivalent.
22:50:07 <aramend> That clears it up. And yeah, I've heard the List is versatile but slow spiel.
22:50:31 <koz_> The thing is, list versus Vector is another story.
22:50:36 <koz_> This is String versus Text.
22:50:52 <koz_> And that's _different_, because by definition, String and Text aren't polymorphic in their contents.
22:51:28 <koz_> (the stories are related, but ultimately orthogonal IMHO)
22:52:14 <aramend> Okay, time to sleep for me, bye!
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22:58:31 <slack1256> https://pastebin.com/xyXQM3ks
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22:59:09 <slack1256> I got this example, I would have thought that `infiniteRef` would have some allocation. Why isn't this the case?
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23:14:54 <Axman6> slack1256: have you tried infinite = {-# NOINLINE infinite #-} 1 : 1 : zipWith (+) infinite (tail infinite)?
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23:15:19 <slack1256> Axman6: Give me a sec to try.
23:16:58 <slack1256> I think moving that NOINLINE pragma inside the expression is illegal.
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23:17:52 <Axman6> uh, sorry, I misrtead and thought it was the SSC, move the SSC in there
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23:18:06 <slack1256> Will try.
23:18:36 <dolio> Yeah, I think your `infinteRef` SCC is just surrounding the occurence of the variable, which isn't allocating anything.
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23:19:57 <slack1256> Axman6: I did as you said, now it really reports allocated memory. Thank you!
23:22:05 <slack1256> dolio: I think you are right. But I would have thought that to evaluate `infinite` you would had to first pass through `infiniteRef` and that at least cumulative allocation would be reported.
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23:23:10 <Guest_15> I just sh into Haskell on my Mac. I am very new to Haskell. How do I create a new file ?
23:24:36 <dolio> slack1256: I think it doesn't work that way. Like, if you do `\x -> f ({-# SCC "hello" #-} x)`, it's not going to wrap the value that function gets in an extra SCC.
23:24:49 <jared-w> koz_: yeah I managed to fix it. Took a second to figure out everything that was wrong. The transient errors seem to have been caused by the caching being "too good" (but the cache hit wasn't breaking cabal build, it was breaking the cabal-docspec). Just a guess though
23:25:03 <koz_> jared-w: Thanks so much!
23:25:15 <koz_> I'll merge that once I'm done with the work I'm doing. You've saved me hours if not days of headaches.
23:25:30 <__minoru__shirae> slack1256: how do you monitor memory allocation?
23:25:39 <jared-w> koz_: np :)
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23:26:08 <koz_> What's with the 'env' thing in the cache action?
23:26:15 <slack1256> dolio: I seem to have a wrong idea on how SCC are stacked.
23:26:40 <jared-w> https://github.com/kozross/text-ascii/pull/13/files#diff-c09cc8dc973415b1221308559b96942a1c4b872e690bf360fc22d9b42822d519R39 this was a pain and a half to figure out. Best as I can figure out, there's a bug somewhere buried in cabal-docspec's handling of ghc and paths where someone commented that it only worked if they used `-w ghc` rather than `-w /path/to/ghc` so... *shrug*
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23:26:57 <slack1256> __minoru__shirae: I could do a half-assed explanation, but the ghc user guide is really good in this aspect. https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/profiling.html
23:26:58 <koz_> Wow, that's... actually hostile.
23:27:00 <dolio> I mean, it could do that, but it's kind of an odd thing to do, really.
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23:27:40 <koz_> jared-w: One of us (likely you since you understand it) should likely open an issue on the cabal-extras repo.
23:27:46 <jared-w> koz_: that lets you increment the number and blow the cache without having to change the file 3 times to do so. Just in case you ever run into some obscure "macOS dylib stuff broke i guezz? lol"
23:27:48 <koz_> Since that's something that ought to be yelled from the rooftops.
23:27:55 <koz_> Ah, OK, useful.
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23:28:38 <jared-w> koz_: like this issue? https://github.com/phadej/cabal-extras/issues/19 :p
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23:29:18 <koz_> jared-w: Interesting.
23:29:32 <koz_> From a quick glance they're saying it's an issue with 'directory'?
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23:30:40 <jared-w> I think so? Really hard to tell
23:30:52 <dolio> slack1256: If you really wanted something like that, maybe `\x -> let y = {-# SCC "y" #-} x; {-# noinline y #-} in f y` would work, because the let actually builds a closure.
23:31:01 <koz_> Well, anyways, thanks so much for this!
23:31:18 <jared-w> np! Have a good one :)
23:31:18 <dolio> As long as the let doesn't disappear for being too trivial.
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23:39:15 <slack1256> dolio: so the idea is that it has to be a closure so the SCC is stacked. That would make sense on why it didn't work the first time.
23:40:16 <dolio> slack1256: Anyhow, the reason I would say your original idea shouldn't work is that a variable occurrence doesn't have a cost. So if you could just put an SCC on a variable occurrence, keeping track of that would mean that an SCC is introducing allocation.
23:41:20 <slack1256> dolio: Seems reasonable. Thank you.
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23:47:50 <Axman6> what's the name for functions which are defined with multiple definitions; foo Nothing = ... ; foo (Just a) = .... instead of foo a = case a of ...
23:48:02 <Axman6> just multiple definiton functions?
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23:48:59 <swarmcollective> Axman6, I've not heard a name, but I've heard that referred to as pattern matched.
23:49:17 <Axman6> both are using pattern matching, but the former is syntax sugar for the latter
23:49:19 <swarmcollective> Though, pattern matching is, of course, used in many scenarios.
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23:51:00 <swarmcollective> In other languages, I believe the term would be "overloaded"
23:51:21 <dolio> Multi-clause?
23:52:34 <swarmcollective> It wouldn't be terrible if Haskell supported overloaded functions (functions with the same name accepting different quantity / order of parameters, but as with most things, someone / people would find a way to make it terrible. :D
23:52:53 <swarmcollective> +) somewhere in there
23:53:03 <Axman6> swarmcollective: what would the tyype of a function which does that look like though?
23:53:18 <dolio> Pattern matching on the left is not the same as overloading.
23:53:54 <hpc> swarmcollective: check out printf for a very limited example of this
23:54:02 <Axman6> erlang has a notion of functions also having their arity as part of the identity, createUSer/2 and createUser/3 are different
23:54:17 <Axman6> but who cares about types at that point
23:54:27 <dibblego> Axman6 ♥ Erlang
23:54:57 <__minoru__shirae> I think you can simulate overloaded functions by writing dummy entities, or maybe not
23:55:07 <ephemient> what is the arity of `id`?
23:55:12 <Axman6> dummy entities?
23:55:23 <Axman6> ephemient: the same as all functions, 1
23:55:25 <ephemient> id a, id a b, id a b c, id a b c d, etc. can all be valid
23:55:29 slack1256 TIL: about those numbers on erlang.
23:55:32 Axman6 beat dibblego to it
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23:56:03 <jle`> (id negate) 3 = negate 3 = -3
23:56:08 <dolio> Logic programming languages tend to have that sort of thing, too.
23:56:13 <jle`> its arity is 1 like all functions, but it can return functions
23:56:38 <jle`> id negate = negate
23:56:56 <__minoru__shirae> Axman6, imagine prepending function with some name, and then distinguishing overloaded functions by different names that you prepend. Not sure if it's possible in haskell.
23:57:00 <jle`> (id a) b c d = a b c d
23:57:07 <swarmcollective> Axman6, The chain of updateState functions in this: https://github.com/calledtoconstruct/lambdabot/blob/patches/lambdabot-dashboard-plugins/src/Lambdabot/Plugin/Dashboard/Dashboard.hs
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23:57:28 <dolio> __minoru__shirae: Like qualified imports? :)
23:57:36 <cheater> swarmcollective: haskell already has overloaded functions. if you want f to take Either an Int or a Float, then make f :: Either Int Float
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23:57:53 <ephemient> I mean, GHC does keep track of how many unapplied arguments there are to a function, so in that sense there is an arity
23:57:59 <__minoru__shirae> dolio, yeah, something like that
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23:58:08 <swarmcollective> cheater, but does it allow for a different number of arguments?
23:58:18 <ephemient> but id a = a and id = \a -> a would count differently
23:58:37 <cheater> swarmcollective: sure. f :: Either (Int, Int) (Float, Float, Float)
23:58:39 <Axman6> swarmcollective: look at Text.Printf
23:58:43 <Axman6> :t printf
23:58:44 <lambdabot> PrintfType r => String -> r
23:58:48 <hpc> fun fact, they're already different with respect to the monomorphism restriction
23:58:49 <cheater> well...
23:58:54 <swarmcollective> Ahhh! I see now. ;)
23:58:59 <cheater> someone forgot to add -> Int
23:59:01 <cheater> like me
23:59:07 <Axman6> > printf "%d %f %s" 1 pi "Hello"
23:59:09 <lambdabot> error:
23:59:09 <lambdabot> • Ambiguous type variable ‘a0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M149988900225...
23:59:09 <lambdabot> prevents the constraint ‘(Show a0)’ from being solved.
23:59:14 <cheater> f :: Either (Int, Int) (Float, Float, Float) -> Int
23:59:22 <ephemient> > printf "%d %f %s" 1 pi "Hello" :: String
23:59:23 <lambdabot> "1 3.141592653589793 Hello"
23:59:27 <Axman6> > printf "%d %f %s" (1::Int) (pi::Double) "Hello" :: String
23:59:29 <lambdabot> "1 3.141592653589793 Hello"
23:59:34 <jle`> ephemient: it sort of depends on what level you are asking the question on then; are you talking about the semanatics of what id denotes, or about how ghc treats it implementation-wise?

All times are in UTC on 2021-02-10.