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Logs on 2021-02-11 (freenode/#haskell)

00:00:01 <Axman6> > printf "%d %f %s, $s" (1::Int) (pi::Double) "Hello" "world!" :: String
00:00:06 <lambdabot> "1 3.141592653589793 Hello, $s*Exception: printf: formatting string ended pr...
00:00:15 <Axman6> > printf "%d %f %s, %s" (1::Int) (pi::Double) "Hello" "world!" :: String
00:00:17 <lambdabot> "1 3.141592653589793 Hello, world!"
00:00:46 <ephemient> originally I meant semantically. there is the number of arguments that the GHC implementation counts, but IMO it shouldn't be considered
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00:01:05 <Axman6> that's an implementation detail
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00:01:30 <ski> swarmcollective : overloading would be something different
00:01:32 <jle`> yeah, semantically i'd say it's single-argument; your example of (id a) b c d is really demonstrationg how a behaves (it's equal to a b c d) less so than how id behaves
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00:01:43 <Axman6> (though one that leaks if you know what you're doing sometimes, anw want to piss off hlint by writing foo a b = \x y -> ... if you know it's likely to be partially applied to a and b most of the time)
00:02:39 <jle`> s/less so/more so
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00:03:18 <jle`> which makes for some funny examples like `const id`
00:03:30 <Axman6> :t zipWith id
00:03:31 <lambdabot> [b -> c] -> [b] -> [c]
00:03:50 <ski> Axman6 : "multi-clause function definition" ?
00:04:11 <Axman6> I don't know why I find that more difficult to understand than zipWith ($)
00:04:21 <dibblego> ($) is id, specialised
00:04:48 <jle`> Axman6: naming is powerful
00:05:05 <dibblego> ephemient: it's pretty important to accept that all Haskell functions take 1 argument. When we say "2 arguments", we really mean, takes 1 argument and returns a function — that's about the only use-case for approximating.
00:05:14 <jle`> it's the reason why i'd use (.) instead of fmap
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00:05:33 <jle`> since the name of (.) evokes the idea of function composition in reading moreso than fmap does
00:05:37 <jle`> there is power in the name
00:06:13 <hpc> agreed
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00:06:34 <jle`> if i stare at `map (negate `fmap` (+2))` understand it eventually, but `map (negate . (+2))` communicates the meaning more clearly
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00:07:23 <jle`> i dropped a word there i think
00:07:39 <hpc> the way i usually phrase it is "a function can have the right outputs for all the right inputs, and still be wrong"
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00:14:40 <__minoru__shirae> so printf is defined as taking two arguments, but can accept any number of arguments? They coded that behavior into PrintfType I guess, but how that trick works?
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00:15:07 <__minoru__shirae> looks like PrintfType is either a value, or a function that returns another PrintfType
00:15:08 <monochrom> You could use a much much simpler example.
00:15:43 <monochrom> id :: a->a is defind as taking 1 argument. But since you can instantiate a = b->c, suddenly it takes 2 arguments too.
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00:16:18 <monochrom> And you can play this trick again on c, c = d->e, to go from 2 to 3. Ad infinitum nauseum absurdum.
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00:16:30 <monochrom> @quote monochrom 17-ary
00:16:30 <lambdabot> monochrom says: I am 17-ary, going on 18-ary, I can take curry of you
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00:16:53 <__minoru__shirae> but it seems like you pass regular values to printf, but they become functions somehow
00:16:59 <ski> no
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00:19:42 <monochrom> "f x y" can be thought of as "(f x) y" so it can be thought of as "pass y to (f x), not f per se".
00:20:02 <monochrom> You don't always have to think like this. But it is clearer in the case of printf.
00:20:32 <monochrom> Or at least, less magical.
00:21:03 <monochrom> When you are just an end-user enjoying the magic, it doesn't matter. It works, use it. :)
00:21:09 <__minoru__shirae> oh, I see: printf counts placeholders in its pattern and then keeps returning functions that number of times
00:21:25 <monochrom> Yeah that too.
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00:22:53 <ski> @quote magic.of.printf
00:22:53 <lambdabot> byorgey says: The magic of printf is that it is well-typed but you need not actually know what the types are.
00:23:14 <__minoru__shirae> I've read in some book that this thing when functions take one argument and return other functions is called currying or shoenfinkelizing. did you hear about the second one?
00:24:07 <ski> it's a convention/encoding for passing multiple parameters, when you only have a notion of single-parameter functions
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00:24:37 <ski> (in particular, Haskell doesn't "have currying". it's all in your head)
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00:25:12 <hpc> __minoru__shirae: it's a half-joke about the origin of the concept
00:25:35 <hpc> the only place you'll see it called schoenfinkeling is in the acme package
00:25:46 <__minoru__shirae> oh, btw, it's called after Haskell Curry
00:25:50 <hpc> (which incidentally also contains my favorite german joke)
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00:26:46 <__minoru__shirae> hpc: in that book it was presented not as a joke, but seriously
00:27:00 <__minoru__shirae> don't remember what book though
00:27:12 <hpc> ah
00:27:29 <hpc> in any event, i have only ever heard of it as currying
00:28:05 <__minoru__shirae> imagine people using both your firstname and surname as terms
00:28:42 <ski> (people also tend to confuse "currying" with "partial application" (sometimes also with "partial evaluation"))
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00:37:43 <Axman6> __minoru__shirae: really, printf is powered by the arguments passed to it, and it checks the string matches those arguments, rather than the string powering things, just in case you were thinking the string was the key biit of machiners
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00:38:28 <edwardk> i'm particularly inclined to note that partial application tends to omit the sort of 'over-application' that is common in haskell.
00:38:59 <edwardk> > id id 4 -- passes 'id' two arguments, even though it only takes 1
00:39:01 <lambdabot> 4
00:39:22 <edwardk> this seems kinda academic until you realize how we use combinators like const and id, and work through how the reader monad gets used in practice
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00:40:09 <edwardk> http://comonad.com/reader/2009/curried-scheme/ was me encountering the issue in scheme
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00:46:38 <__minoru__shirae> Axman6: good to know
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00:47:39 <__minoru__shirae> > id (+1) 4
00:47:41 <lambdabot> 5
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00:48:31 <Axman6> A relatively small change to printf could actually give you nice static types based on the format string, but it's currently a bit gross to do because type level Symbols aren't actually [Char]. Ideally we'd write printf @"%i %f %s, %s" and get back (Integral i, Floating f) => i -> f -> String -> String String
00:48:47 <Axman6> uh, String -> String*
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00:49:45 <Axman6> a la https://hackage.haskell.org/package/typelits-printf
00:50:22 <monochrom> format strings are overrated anyway
00:50:53 <Axman6> I do appreciate their conciseness. alternatives are often clunky
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00:51:43 <Axman6> I'm also a biug fan of the formatting library (which wrunt has made some great contributions to in the last few months)
00:51:47 <Axman6> big*
00:51:57 <Axman6> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/formatting-7.1.1/docs/Formatting-Combinators.html
00:52:10 <monochrom> I think you are thinking of the other extreme, an algebraic data type.
00:52:28 Axman6 is responsible for the nagging which lead to a lot of the functios in that module
00:52:44 <monochrom> But there is a sweet spot with quotations and its corresponding unquotation.
00:54:51 <monochrom> tl;dr unquotation is what interpolation dreams of but fails to.
00:55:30 <Axman6> I'm not sure what you're talking about now
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00:55:41 <monochrom> Sure. Here is an example.
00:56:24 <monochrom> Instead of printf("hello %d %c %f world", x, y, z)
00:56:39 <monochrom> you write instead "hello ^x ^y ^z world"
00:57:10 <Axman6> oh right
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00:57:44 <Axman6> often "hello %{x} %{y} %{z} world" in many languages to allow arbitrary expressions right?
00:57:55 <Axman6> or some similar syntax
00:57:57 <monochrom> Yes.
00:58:41 <Axman6> In unrelated news, the acceptance of this is somewhat surprising: https://github.com/golang/go/issues/43651
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00:59:48 <monochrom> I am less surprised. Because Pike did say he was not against this, he was just taking time to look for a simple design.
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01:00:15 <Axman6> yeah, I seem to remember hearing it would almost certainly going to be a feature of Go 2.0
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01:00:31 <monochrom> Now, I don't know whether this one is simple enough, but Pike was always open to polymorphism, just cautiously.
01:01:01 <Axman6> surprised not to see any reference to Wedler et al's work on Featherweight Go
01:01:35 <monochrom> heh
01:02:16 <monochrom> von Neumann's paper/report describing the von Neumann model did not refer to Turing's report either (where Turing described that model first)
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01:02:52 <monochrom> and historical evidence says that von Neumann already had Turing's report by then.
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01:08:29 <Axman6> Wouldn't want to infect Go with any ivory
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01:31:03 <ep1ctetus> Hi, I'm getting an error when using cassava to parse a CSV file, I cannot understand what it means
01:31:15 <ep1ctetus> parse error (Failed reading: satisfy) at "Date","Time","TimeZone","Name","Type","Status","Currency","Amount","Receipt ID","Balance"
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01:32:03 <ep1ctetus> It's being read into a record in which all the fields are type Text, which derives Generic and FromRecord
01:32:05 <ep1ctetus> anyone have thoughts?
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01:32:52 <Axman6> not without seeing the code :)
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01:34:08 <ep1ctetus> https://pastebin.com/hgKUDzdw
01:35:48 <Axman6> should the CSV columns not all have pe prefixed to them? or does cassava automatically remove those (I didn't think it did without you telling it to)
01:35:55 <sm[m]> I forgot.. is there any way to find out, eg from the RTS, if an executable was compiled with or without optimisation ?
01:36:26 <ep1ctetus> Axman6: by making it an instance of FromRecord, it just matches the column positions with the record fields
01:36:37 <ep1ctetus> it ignores the headers
01:37:00 <ep1ctetus> Here is the first 3 lines of the CSV file: https://pastebin.com/mcAPyiLp
01:37:40 <ep1ctetus> I have this working with the exact same setup on a differently-formatted CSV file
01:38:06 <Axman6> ah right, I forgot about FromNamedRecord
01:38:48 <glguy> sm[m], it doesn't that I know of
01:39:55 <Axman6> ep1ctetus: what happens when you try to parse it as a `Csv`, change readPaypal :: String -> IO (Vector PaypalEntry) to readPaypal :: String -> IO (Vector Csv)
01:40:08 <Axman6> uh, readPaypal :: String -> IO Csv
01:41:23 <ep1ctetus> Axman6: same error
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01:45:12 <ep1ctetus> ok, I got it to work
01:45:24 <Axman6> how?
01:45:30 <ep1ctetus> I find a find-replace of all the " in the csv file, and it read in fine
01:45:47 <Axman6> ah, right, fancy quotes?
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01:46:12 <ep1ctetus> I don't know, but the file I have that works doesn't have quotes in every filed like this file
01:46:15 <Axman6> are you on macOS? TextEdit et al have a habit of being "helpful" like that
01:46:31 <ep1ctetus> no I downloaded this file straight from PayPal's website
01:46:58 <ep1ctetus> so perhaps I can find/replace them in the ByteString that's read in before parsing it
01:47:07 <Axman6> hmm, weird
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02:01:51 <ep1ctetus> Axman6: I found out more -- there are non-printable characters at the beginning of the file that are confusing it
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02:02:23 <ep1ctetus> hmmm, or it could be the encoding
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02:05:15 <ep1ctetus> lol yeah, that's what it was, there are non-printable characters at the beginning. Whatever corresponds to 239, 187, 191
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02:09:02 <Axman6> utf-8 with BOM?
02:09:09 <Axman6> what does `file` say for the original file?
02:09:18 <ep1ctetus> yes, it said UTF-8-BOM, what does that mean?
02:09:39 <Axman6> byte order mark
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02:10:03 <c_wraith> which is weird - UTF8 doesn't have ambiguous byte orders
02:10:13 <Axman6> so there's some cbytes at the beginning which tell you ... something. seems weird to have in utf-8. utf-16 and 32 I could understand
02:10:40 <ep1ctetus> well I'm not surprised that PayPal would produce a stupidly-formatted CSV file
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02:11:40 <ep1ctetus> My solution was to drop those characters ... then it worked
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02:12:02 <Axman6> yeah should be fine
02:12:22 <ephemient> the only thing an initial UTF-8 BOM tells you is that the file starts with a UTF-8 BOM
02:12:56 <Axman6> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte_order_mark
02:12:58 <ephemient> it's not data so go ahead, ignore it and treat the rest of the file as UTF-8
02:13:59 <monochrom> I wrote my code to detect and drop BOM too :)
02:14:05 <Axman6> somewhat annoying it's not dropped automatically
02:14:34 <ephemient> at which layer?
02:14:42 <Axman6> readFile
02:14:55 <Axman6> but I guess readFile for ByteString shouldn't do anything
02:15:03 <monochrom> stripBOM bytes = case BL.stripPrefix (BL.pack "\xef\xbb\xbf") bytes of { Just suffix -> suffix; Nothing -> bytes }
02:15:14 <monochrom> (BL = Data.ByteString.Lazy)
02:15:21 <Axman6> if it were Text.readFile I would expect it to check for it and use it for decoding to Text
02:15:33 <ephemient> it would be worse if `readFile f >>= writeFile f` stripped the BOM, IMO
02:15:46 <monochrom> err, Data.ByteString.Lazy.Char8
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02:17:45 <monochrom> It is a Microsoft convention to add BOM. It is not so much byte order disambiguation as 8-vs-16 disambiguation.
02:17:52 <ep1ctetus> monochrom: thanks, this is nicer than what I wrote
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02:18:50 <Axman6> feels like a very un-unixy thing to do, since it would break cat *.txt > out.txt
02:19:11 <Axman6> (that may itself be a bad idea depending on when out.txt is created...)
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02:20:32 <ephemient> redirections happen before exec, so yeah that is somewhat problematic
02:20:42 <ephemient> cat *.txt | sponge out.txt # https://joeyh.name/code/moreutils/ to the rescue
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02:21:29 <ephemient> but the cat thing only works if every file is the same encoding... and the encoding doesn't have state like SJIS...
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02:32:16 <koala_man> if anyone's interested, I was able to build x86_64 macos binaries on Linux using osxcross and a custom built GHC cross-compiler
02:33:36 <koala_man> the binaries are absolutely huge for some reason, but it works
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02:35:00 <slack1256> What is the resulting size for the stage2 compiler?
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02:36:04 <dsal> koala_man: Oh cool. How easy is it to reproduce that?
02:37:03 <koala_man> slack1256: I think I built stage1only
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02:39:37 <koala_man> dsal: fairly easy, actually. Much easier than last time I cross-compiled to aarch64. however, I did depend on some random janky Docker image with osxcross already built. This is my current Dockerfile: https://gist.github.com/koalaman/5d88b5bdc9316b055ead9e9aa7ff74cb
02:40:45 <koala_man> it doesn't support TemplateHaskell, but other than that it appears to work
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03:29:15 <koz_> yay ci goes brrr
03:29:22 <koz_> (sorry, still really happy about that)
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04:15:04 <slack1256> References to files on template haskell splices don't need to be declared as `data-files` on cabal?
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04:15:58 <slack1256> This is for a yesod site I am making, so the template shakespeare files live on another folder. I want to use `whamletFile` on them.
04:16:08 <glguy> I wouldn't think so; data files are for runtime data
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04:16:30 <glguy> and splices are compile time things
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04:17:52 <slack1256> Neat
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04:18:21 <slack1256> I still need to be careful if I decide to ship this code, as the templates won't be included on the .tar.gz
04:18:46 <glguy> unless the splices are defining runtime file references?
04:18:57 <glguy> really just depends on what's going on there
04:19:25 <slack1256> No, they are not runtime file references.
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04:22:36 <glguy> You'll need to list them as extra-source-files, I think it was, so that they get bundled in the sdist
04:22:55 <slack1256> Ooooh that makes sense.
04:23:09 <slack1256> Thank you glguy.
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06:32:45 <koala_man> I just did `cabal install --lib Diff-0.4.0` (arbitrary choice). When I later do `cabal build`, it still downloads and builds Diff-0.4.0. Is it supposed to do that?
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06:33:59 <sclv> yes. Installing with —lib just puts it in the global env for ghci etc outside of projects
06:34:14 <sclv> projects each have a local env
06:34:34 <koala_man> is there any kind of shared package cache?
06:34:56 <c_wraith> sure, it shares packages - but only if their package ids are identical
06:35:05 <c_wraith> same version, same flags, same dependency package ids
06:35:43 <c_wraith> If they didn't come out the same, it's likely that solving the dependencies in one of the packages required an older version of one of those dependencies than the other was required to use
06:35:47 <koala_man> what does it share them with? other projects that have been built, but not anything you 'cabal install'?
06:36:02 <c_wraith> anything in the package cache
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06:37:28 <c_wraith> see ~/.cabal/store
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06:42:46 <koala_man> c_wraith: how do I debug why the IDs are different? In the diff between the two, only the hashes are different: https://gist.github.com/koalaman/ccafff70cefea932c9b4f416a8b89eaf
06:43:06 <c_wraith> dependencies and flags
06:43:29 <koala_man> the dependencies are the same, and I didn't add any flags in either case
06:43:36 <koala_man> unless --lib counts
06:44:01 <c_wraith> I think it does. it seems to count *every* flag, whether it makes sense or not.
06:44:48 <koala_man> it fails without --lib, but it shows the same ID
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06:52:34 <koala_man> I'm trying to pre-build some dependencies, which used to work fine, but which now fails to reuse the cache and I don't know why
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07:02:48 <koala_man> huh, it only happens when I use a ~/.cabal/config. when I specify the same options directly on the command line, it works
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07:06:37 <koala_man> well, at least I have a workaround
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07:19:00 <koala_man> I had "ghc-options: -optc-Os" in there and when I comment it out, it caches as expected even though it should be used by both
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08:47:03 <frobnicator> experimenting with haskell's generics I run into the problem that NoSelector type constructor cannot be found. I have imported GHC.Generics
08:47:26 <frobnicator> the general case works: instance (GPrint a, Selector c) => GPrint (S1 c a) where ...
08:48:23 <frobnicator> but this instance gives the error: instance GPrint a => GPrint (S1 NoSelector a) where
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08:51:14 <[exa]> frobnicator: can you pastebin the code snippet and the error?
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08:55:54 <frobnicator> [exa]: https://termbin.com/64jt
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08:56:34 <frobnicator> that is a MWE, don't bother with the language extensions, they are mostly for other stuff not included in the mwe
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09:00:09 <tomsmeding> frobnicator: what makes you think NoSelector should be in scope?
09:00:29 <frobnicator> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.8.1.0/docs/GHC-Generics.html#t:NoSelector
09:01:07 <tomsmeding> that's for base-4.8.1.0, which is for ghc 7.10.2
09:01:13 <tomsmeding> I'm assuming you're not _that_ outdated?
09:01:38 <tomsmeding> i.e. NoSelector may have existed in the past, but it does not anymore :p
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09:02:02 <frobnicator> I used boilerplate from here: https://wiki.haskell.org/GHC.Generics and got inspired by: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/generic-pretty-0.1.0
09:02:06 <frobnicator> I see, thanks
09:02:36 <frobnicator> so now I just check whether selName is empty to know whether it actually has a record selector?
09:02:52 <tomsmeding> seems it disappeared with ghc 8.0
09:02:56 <merijn> tomsmeding: 7.10 is only a decade old!
09:03:08 <tomsmeding> fair
09:03:14 <merijn> oh, wait, it's newer
09:03:33 <merijn> A mere 5 years
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09:05:16 <tomsmeding> frobnicator: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.1.0/docs/src/GHC.Generics.html#line-1323
09:05:22 <tomsmeding> see that `fromMaybe ""`
09:05:49 <frobnicator> thanks
09:05:57 <tomsmeding> elsewhere on the GHC.Generics docs page (search for "record field" -- that has one hit) it says that that type field indicates whether there is a record selector
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09:06:15 <tomsmeding> so yes, if the return value from selName is empty, it's not a record field :)
09:06:26 <frobnicator> thanks
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09:08:03 <frobnicator> it seems to work now so I'm happy. Generics in Haskell are quite different from Clean
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09:11:23 <frobnicator> strictness is not included for example, but constructors and records do include information about arity, type and index
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10:49:06 <ij> can lambdabot do those @ type annotations? (id @Double) :: Double -> Double
10:49:29 <ij> I want to force a Num a into a Double in the fewest characters possible
10:50:05 <ij> nope, not enabled. only now did I get the syntax right
10:50:09 <tomsmeding> ij: yahb does
10:50:17 <tomsmeding> % :t (id @Double)
10:50:17 <yahb> tomsmeding: Double -> Double
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11:14:40 <idnar> koala_man: ohhhhhh I've been scratching my head over the same issue for weeks! I have "ghc-options: -haddock" for HLS
11:15:11 <ph88^> how would one have to constrain a programming language in order to prove it terminates ?
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11:16:32 <ph88^> maybe in other words: what programming language capabilities are left when made not turing complete
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11:21:28 <kuribas> ph88^: you need to prove recursion terminates
11:21:54 <kuribas> usually by showing the recursive invocation is smaller then the current invocation.
11:23:06 <ph88^> ok, any idea how i could do that ?
11:23:52 <kuribas> so if you have a function f :: a -> b, you need another (total) function "measure :: a -> Integer", such that if f takes an argument x1 and recurses on x2, measure x1 > measure x2
11:24:25 <kuribas> it also implies proof capabilities of your language.
11:24:41 <kuribas> Or you keep the language simple enough that it can never recurse unboundedly.
11:25:17 <ph88^> how could i do it without proof capabilities but instead keep the language simple enough that it can never recurse unboundly ?
11:25:34 <kuribas> don't allow recursion
11:25:48 <ph88^> no middle ground ?
11:26:13 <kuribas> middle ground between allowing or not allowing recursion?
11:26:28 <ph88^> yes
11:26:56 <kuribas> I see some contradiction there...
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11:27:09 <ftq> Is Programming in Haskell up-to-date?
11:27:22 <kuribas> ph88^: what problem do you want to solve?
11:27:29 <byorgey> ph88^: you can do this by e.g. only allowing recursion with folds
11:27:48 <ph88^> kuribas, that its guaranteed that the program outputs something
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11:28:04 <ph88^> byorgey, can you elaborate on this ?
11:28:04 <kuribas> ph88^: are you designing a language?
11:28:09 <ph88^> kuribas, ye
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11:29:28 <kuribas> a fold always terminates on finite lists.
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11:30:30 <kuribas> ph88^: if you want to go this route, you may want to study some total languages, like idris or agda...
11:30:54 <kuribas> ph88^: or pie: https://thelittletyper.com/
11:31:28 <ph88^> we are studying this ... just the thing is that we are exploring what we can already do now to make it "more stable" without making the commitment yet to integrate with agda or something
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11:31:36 <ph88^> so limiting the language is one option for us
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11:31:46 <ph88^> that thing with only allowing recursion in folds sound good
11:32:09 <byorgey> ph88^: every algebraic data type has a corresponding fold aka catamorphism. If you bake them into the language, you can disallow writing recursive functions and only allow calling the built-in folds.
11:32:25 <byorgey> ph88^: for example, imagine if you could not write any explicitly recursive functions on lists, but you could call foldr.
11:32:52 <byorgey> (well, this wouldn't work in Haskell because of laziness, lists can be infinite =)
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11:35:32 <ph88^> our language is strict
11:36:10 <ph88^> thanks for your input kuribas & byorgey
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11:37:43 <swarmcollective> What if you only allow recursion in pure functions, verify that there exists conditional logic at the point the function calls itself, and verify that the arg or args involved in the conditional logic involve some "mutation" (x + 1). You could at least provide a warning that infinite recursion is likely if one of those conditions are not met?
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11:39:32 <ph88^> Ya maybe .. we like to know more certain than "likely" though
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11:39:38 <[exa]> swarmcollective: this kindof forces you to actually have for-cycle-like conditions in the code, and then it's cleaner to do without recursion.
11:39:40 <ph88^> like 100% certain
11:39:41 <swarmcollective> The complexity would increase when multiple functions are involved, but the same principle would apply.
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11:40:25 <byorgey> swarmcollective: this is actually done (e.g. Agda), the idea is that you check that the arguments are getting "smaller". Under certain conditions you can prove that the function is certainly terminating.
11:42:45 <swarmcollective> At the same time, it seems that non-provable loops may be necessary where IO is involved. "loop forever until the user enters :q" which may never happen.
11:43:08 <swarmcollective> s/loops/infinite recursion
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11:46:09 <kuribas> you can have a non-total language on top of the total language to handle event loops.
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12:03:27 <carbolymer> I have emoji in one of the strings in the test case and it breaks tasty-discover, why is that?
12:03:39 <carbolymer> also I'm the only person in the team with the problem
12:03:51 <carbolymer> so I suspect I have incorrectly configured locale or sth?
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12:04:11 <__monty__> Sounds like a locale issue, yeah.
12:04:20 <__monty__> Do you and your team all use UTF-8 locales?
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12:07:37 <carbolymer> yes
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12:21:13 <cheater> byorgey: i hope someone called that the "zeno algorithm"
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12:35:29 <merijn> carbolymer: emoji + only broken on some systems = first suspect is broken locale configuration
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12:47:45 <timCF> Hello! Do you know know any libraries/DSLs for definitions of state machines with some formal type-level (or term level) rules for state transitions? It seems like pretty difficult task to generalize, and usually people are building such things from scratch according domain tasks. But maybe there is something generic around?
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12:51:24 <merijn> I doubt it, tbh
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12:56:19 <boxscape> Am I right in thinking that Core doesn't have type inference? If so, does that make let expressions redundant, given lambda expressions?
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13:01:15 <lortabac> boxscape: maybe let's are needed for recursion?
13:01:28 <boxscape> lortabac ah, good point
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13:37:39 <merijn> boxscape: Core has explicit type arguments, yeah
13:37:55 <boxscape> okay
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13:47:35 <carbolymer> merijn: yeah, I had export LANG=C.UTF-8 in my Makefile which was breaking emoji
13:47:46 <merijn> carbolymer: Hah
13:47:46 <carbolymer> strangely, I've added that to fix build previously
13:47:53 <ixlun> Hi all, I was just wondering if anyone knew how native support for the Apple M1 chip was doing?
13:48:00 <merijn> ixlun: In progress
13:49:22 <merijn> ixlun: You can already run the x64 version of GHC on M1, but I think proper 1st class support will probably only be in 9.2? But I'm not sure, you'd have to check GHC gitlab to see how things are going
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13:50:25 <merijn> Which goes for pretty much all ARM support, I think, not just M1
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13:51:42 <ixlun> Indeed, I was thinking that hopefully the M1 chip will help drive support for ARM platforms.
13:52:53 <merijn> ixlun: angerman (and a few others?) have been slogging away at ARM support for a while now
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13:53:51 <angerman> we'll likely have a native M1 8.10.5 release sometime soon, a 9.0.2 release sometime after that, and 9.2 should ship with a native codegen
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13:54:54 <ixlun> That's cool! I presume 8.10.5 and 9.0.2 will use the LLVM backend?
13:55:14 <angerman> https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/merge_requests/4795
13:55:14 <angerman> https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/merge_requests/3641
13:55:26 <angerman> yes, 8.10.5 and 9.0.2 will have to rely on the llvm backend.
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13:56:22 <angerman> if apple hadn't gone with a custom c calling conv, we'd have had releases a few month ago.
13:57:33 <angerman> the combination of apple deciding to build a custom c calling convention for aarch64 on darwin, and ghc cutting corners wrt to sized types in the backend meant we needed to (a) fix this properly in 9.2, and (b) find alternative fixes for legacy releases.
13:58:12 <angerman> I don't think having 9.2 being the first aarch64-darwin compiler would be agood idea, especially as there will be plenty of library fallout, which would mean that the first likely useable version could be as far out as 9.6 or 9.8
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14:02:11 <ixlun> Huh, I didn't know that Apple used a custom calling convention, I assumed they would have just used the standard aarch64 PCS. Have they published the call standard that they use?
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14:12:54 <zangi> let's say I have a source file called Foo.hs, it has `import Foo; import Bar; import Baz` you name it, and it uses a function called `foo` from one of the imported modules, how do I find out which module `foo` function came from?
14:13:37 <carbolymer> well, in such case only one of those modules can contain foo
14:13:46 <carbolymer> otherwise you'll get compilation error
14:14:14 <zangi> using hoogle seems inefficient, I have to `hoogle Foo` `hoogle Bar` `hoogle Baz` to find out where foo is located
14:14:14 <carbolymer> zangi: and to find that out you need some additional tool, like HLS
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14:16:45 <Cale> zangi: You can use hoogle to search for foo instead
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14:20:19 <absence> are there other ways to pattern match using variables than with guards, e.g. "Just a | a == myvar"? i realise that "Just myvar" introduces a new myvar that shadows the other one
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14:21:16 <zangi> Cale: but then I have to see whether the resulted modules exist in Foo.hs, since it's not just one module that has `foo` function
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14:22:48 <angerman> ixlun: yes, they pack excess arguments on the stack (instead of assining each one an 64bit slot). Similarly extension is expected at the receiver.
14:24:42 <zangi> carbolymer: that seems good, but I'm not a big fan of IDE,
14:25:13 <zangi> I think I have to write simple script for this, i.e. `sed -n '/import\s\+\(qualified\s\+\)\?/s///p' Foo.hs | sed 's/\s.*//; s/(.*//'`
14:25:31 <geekosaur> absence, no
14:25:46 <geekosaur> you cannot use pattern matching to test equality except in the case of constructors
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14:31:01 <absence> geekosaur: right, that makes sense. i don't suppose there are any extensions that could be (ab)used to make the syntax "nicer"?
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14:31:23 <geekosaur> not so far as I am aware
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14:31:48 <geekosaur> pattern synonyms handle certain specific cases though
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14:35:20 <absence> geekosaur: with viewpatterns i guess i could write something like "Just ((== myvar) -> True)", but it's hardly an improvement. :) pattern synonyms seem daunting, which specific cases do you mean?
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14:36:18 <geekosaur> you can't capture existing bindings for use in the definition of the synonym, only literals
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14:36:27 <geekosaur> which again means it's not helpful
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14:37:25 <merijn> absence: What's the type of 'a'?
14:37:59 <absence> merijn: hm, i guess bytestring
14:39:20 <merijn> absence: Why both with the pattern match, you could just do something like "maybe False (==myvar)"?
14:39:30 <merijn> (assuming Nothing should be False)
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14:39:46 <merijn> :t \x -> maybe False (==x)
14:39:47 <lambdabot> Eq a => a -> Maybe a -> Bool
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14:40:18 <absence> merijn: ah right, the Maybe was just an excuse to pattern match in a small example, the real type is a nested monstrosity
14:40:46 <merijn> In that case "abstract out as much of the monstrosity as possible :p
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14:43:06 <absence> merijn: i could certainly make it into a Maybe that way. i'll keep that in mind for when/if i have to match it against multiple values, thanks!
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15:34:12 <merijn> Anyone happen to know what the timeline for cabal-install 3.4 is now that GHC 9 is finally out?
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15:39:28 <merijn> And, unrelatedly, can I simply mv ~/.cabal/store somewhere else and update ~/.cabal/config and expect everything to "Just Work (TM)"?
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15:50:50 <merijn> Not all at once ;)
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15:51:53 <cuz> does anyone know what you would call a type that can be either a single value of type a or a list of values (all of which are type a)?
15:51:58 <merijn> But I've got another question: I know how to make a hierarchy using the Exception class, but there's no real way to "adopt" an existing exception to add it to my hierarchy, right?
15:52:16 <merijn> cuz: NonEmpty? :p
15:52:48 <merijn> cuz: What you describe basically sounds like "a list that's never empty" (1 value just be a single element list)
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15:56:53 <lortabac> to me it sounds like a normal list
15:57:25 <lortabac> unless there is some semantic distinction between 'Only x' and '[x]'
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16:00:03 <merijn> lortabac: Ah, I had assumed the list to not be empty, but you're right
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16:02:19 <lortabac> merijn: btw, resuming a discussion from yesterday... it still isn't clear to me how '(\_ -> x) y' is optimized to 'x'
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16:02:47 <merijn> lortabac: That seems trivial
16:03:21 <merijn> lortabac: lambda + argument is trivial to rewrite into "just subtitute argument in the lambda body"
16:03:34 <merijn> And if the lambda binding is a wildcard _, you don't even have to do anything
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16:04:26 <c_wraith> is that the process ghc calls simplification?
16:05:13 <slack1256> Is there any downside on having `row types` on a language/ecosystem? This is apart of implementation details on the compiler.
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16:05:24 <slack1256> I`ve only heard nice things about them.
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17:03:13 <ph88^> is it possible to initialize a git repository as part of stack new project my-template ?
17:03:46 <c_wraith> I don't see why not. It's just a matter of creating a .git directory with a few files inside it
17:04:13 <c_wraith> when you have no commits and no remotes, there isn't much present
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17:08:42 <c_wraith> ph88^: checkout out /usr/share/git-core/templates to see what directories and files git init creates by default
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17:09:04 <ph88^> thanks c_wraith :)
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17:10:40 <c_wraith> It creates a couple more files by default. check on the results of running `git init` in an empty directory
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18:03:47 <hseg> hey, trying to set a breakpoint in a where clause, ghci complains that "no breakpoint found" when i try by-line syntax and "parse error" when i try qualification syntax
18:03:48 <hseg> (i.e. :break line and :break top.clause, resp)
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18:11:04 <monochrom> works for me. Perhaps pay attention to two points.
18:11:29 <monochrom> 1. "Specifically, it picks the leftmost complete subexpression on that line"
18:12:05 <monochrom> So if you have no expression on that line, that's a problem
18:12:25 <monochrom> 2. "of the most recently-loaded module"
18:12:57 <hseg> http://ix.io/2P4k -- can't set a breakpoint at inductive.subs
18:13:07 <hseg> <interactive>:1:12: error: parse error on input ‘.’
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18:14:00 <monochrom> Well there you go, "subs n l =" no expression on this line
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18:15:20 <monochrom> I really tested it. I had " n = length s * 4 + 1" and ":break <that line number>" means the "length s * 4 + 1", not the "n".
18:15:37 <monochrom> err nevermind
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18:19:47 <monochrom> Still works for me. I have:
18:19:49 <monochrom> n =
18:19:59 <monochrom> (+ 1) . (* 4) . length $
18:20:01 <monochrom> s
18:20:30 <monochrom> I did ":break <line number of (+ 1) . (* 4) . length $>" and it was a success.
18:20:33 <hseg> Prelude Main> :break Main 109
18:20:35 <hseg> No breakpoints found at that location.
18:21:15 <monochrom> Well that would be when I tried ":break <line number of n =>"
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18:21:37 <monochrom> You also realize that the magic number "109" means nothing to me, don't you?
18:21:38 <hseg> cabal.project: http://ix.io/2P4o
18:21:45 <hseg> 109 is the line number
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18:22:00 <monochrom> OK I'm done.
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18:22:36 <hseg> ok, thanks then
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18:23:44 <geekosaur> how does this 109 relate to the 10-line paste you showed earlier?
18:23:55 <geekosaur> to be more specific
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18:24:30 <hseg> 10-line paste is excerpt from actual code, starting at line 104
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18:24:40 <hseg> so in that snipped, should've been :break 5
18:25:01 <hseg> :facepalm
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18:25:13 <geekosaur> hm, you said you wanted subs
18:25:19 <geekosaur> which would be line 8 of that paste
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18:25:57 <hseg> yeah just realized i missed monochrom's warning re putting the breakpoint at rhs, not lhs of bindings
18:26:00 <hseg> it works
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18:26:41 <hseg> though qualification syntax doesn't, for some reason
18:26:46 <hseg> but this is good enough for me
18:26:46 <geekosaur> it wouldn't
18:26:51 <hseg> why not?
18:27:03 <monochrom> There is no "qualification syntax".
18:27:07 <geekosaur> afaik the only thing that actually "qualifies" that way is profiling output
18:27:51 <monochrom> If you're looking at ":break <qualified name/identifier> also works", that's for module.name
18:28:01 <monochrom> Clearly, "inductive" is not a module
18:28:32 <monochrom> ":break <qualified name/identifier>" would mean for example "Prelude.id"
18:29:50 <monochrom> But generally, fundamentally break points are set for expressions, not for definitions. Even though there is a shortcut that lets you talk about a definition.
18:29:52 <hseg> :break [ModQual.]topLevelIdent[.nestedIdent]...[.nestedIdent] ?
18:30:13 <monochrom> There is no "nestedIdent".
18:30:26 <hseg> https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/ghci.html says otherwise
18:30:34 <hseg> though that might be new
18:31:04 <hseg> yeah, was looking at the wrong docs
18:31:05 <monochrom> And which version of GHC is that?
18:31:06 <hseg> sorry
18:31:34 <hseg> somehow reading comprehension flies out the window when there're people around to help
18:32:15 <monochrom> Generally you should develop the habit of downloading and using local docs that match your versions, and don't trust Google.
18:32:48 <hseg> k
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18:34:50 <monochrom> https://www.tweag.io/blog/2021-02-10-linear-base/ interesting. (by way of Haskell Weekly News)
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18:36:36 <monochrom> tldr a library of linear variants of base things
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18:37:58 <geekosaur> actually that's what it says it isn't, it's more a core of basic linear-types programming utilities
18:38:34 <monochrom> Ah ok oops
18:38:35 <geekosaur> with relatively few replacements for things in base
18:39:47 <monochrom> Still, it helps a lot.
18:40:31 <geekosaur> one suspects it'd also help answer the question someone raised a few weeks ago about why someone would want linear types
18:40:49 <monochrom> :)
18:40:58 <monochrom> Naw I don't think it answers that.
18:41:28 <geekosaur> well, if it has some basic linear-typed tools, presumably those show what you gain from them
18:41:28 <monochrom> A real answer would need a real benefit, which is at least one of {safety, efficiency}.
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18:42:27 <monochrom> For now, neither actually happens. The safety side has a gaping loophole via the exception system. The efficiency side simply hasn't happened and has no reason to happen for the next two years.
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18:43:04 <monochrom> What a library does, the only thing it can do, is to alleviate the chore of reinventing utility functions.
18:43:14 <merijn> monochrom: oh, maybe they'll hire me as naive optimist to work out the exception side, because I have opinions :p
18:45:22 <monochrom> OK, I concede, sometimes people write code for the asethetic of the code, even when the code means garbage in terms of semantics.
18:45:43 <hseg> code as art?
18:46:09 <geekosaur> "perl poetry", sounds like :)
18:46:49 <geekosaur> that, or Piet (or Mondrian)
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18:47:38 <monochrom> linear haskell poems and dependent haskell satires
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18:48:31 <monochrom> https://dev.to/soriyeak/extensible-record-in-haskell-using-vinyl-for-noob-1l65
18:48:39 <monochrom> "Warning: vinyl record field takes order into the matter, so if you put the wrong order, it will causes the type error."
18:49:30 <monochrom> The cause is that vinyl uses a type-level list, not set, to state the field names and field types of your record.
18:50:04 <kw> If I run with `blockSignals` (from System.Posix.Signals) and a signal gets blocked, is it re-thrown as soon as I unblock that signal, or is it gone forever?
18:50:06 <monochrom> Clearly, list is too specific for stating record content.
18:50:22 <geekosaur> kw, it's on hold until unblocked
18:50:25 <monochrom> Ideally you would want a type-level set so that order doesn't quite matter.
18:50:36 <merijn> kw: Oh, easy answer: There is absolutely zero hope of sensibly handling signals in the current RTS
18:50:46 <kw> geekosaur: Thanks!
18:50:47 <geekosaur> but note that signal handling in Haskell is harum-scarum
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18:50:48 <merijn> Any hopes/dreams of doing so is hopeless lies
18:50:55 <monochrom> kw, with signals, there is no re-thrown, only pending and delivered.
18:51:10 <merijn> geekosaur: Making it not stupid is at the top of my post-thesis todo list, so there's hope!
18:51:14 <kw> Right, so it's stuck pending and then once I unblock it's delivered?
18:51:20 <geekosaur> yes
18:51:46 <merijn> geekosaur: I don't think that question is possible to answer without consulting the unix package source, tbh
18:52:02 <merijn> kw: I recommend healthy skepticism to the above answers
18:52:04 <monochrom> where "pending" is very simply "waiting to be delivered", and the reasons of waiting are simply either getting blocked (so wait until unblocking) or the OS is being slow.
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18:52:46 <electricityZZZZ> sorry to mention cryptocurrency here, but this is sort-of relevant to haskell: if anyone here operates a cardano stake pool or knows much about them please pm me? i have a few questions
18:52:47 <monochrom> merijn, I had a post-thesis todo list too.
18:52:49 <merijn> monochrom: Well, whether all that is true would depend on how unix implements masking per thread or process wide, etc.
18:53:15 <monochrom> Guess what, it has been waiting for 9 years and I still haven't touched it :)
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18:53:32 <kw> Awsome. Was wondering why `Xmobar` installs a bunch of signal handlers (that each stash a specific signal in an `MVar` )  over each other  in a `for_` loop, then runs an action, and then resets the signal handler to default. Looks like the answer is 'no reason at all'.
18:54:01 <merijn> monochrom: Well, it's stuff I need for my own things
18:54:15 <merijn> kw: Wow, that's cursed
18:54:25 <slack1256> monochrom: How big of a problem is that row types are modeled as an `HList` in practice?
18:54:28 <merijn> RIP your sanity trying to touch this
18:54:34 <geekosaur> the original author of xmobar didn't know what he was doing even without the Haskell runtime
18:54:38 <merijn> slack1256: Well, for one, they're not row types
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18:55:51 <merijn> slack1256: Row types generally function on something more set like and allow you to work with arbitrary size "rows", which becomes impossible if you have a fixed order
18:56:51 <slack1256> I thought the problem was the `union` function which seems to be doable with `HList`s.
18:56:59 <merijn> geekosaur: Personally, I feel it's safe to assume that *all* signal code was written by people who didn't know what they were doing, unless it's commented with references to either 1) POSIX spec or 2) APUE
18:57:12 <monochrom> slack1256: I think some people just put up with "order matters" (to be fair it is usually OK), some other people add a ton of HasNameString, HasAgeInt boilerplate classes to alleviate it.
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18:57:36 <geekosaur> merijn, arossato was something of a special case. I think we're still cleaning up messes they made
18:57:42 <monochrom> (so in the latter case put up with having boilerplates and invoking TH for no reason)
18:57:55 <slack1256> merijn: I don't see how having arbitrary size "rows" is impossible with a fixed order.
18:58:04 <merijn> geekosaur: Well, in that case I recommend nuking all signal related code from orbit and starting from scratch
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18:58:21 <slack1256> I've seen how people construct type classes instances to search on the order for the row they want. Seems like a non problem from the outside.
18:58:36 <monochrom> IMO it is a big problem but human brains are "great" at becoming oblivious to pain.
18:58:49 <monochrom> Just look at C programmers.
18:58:59 <merijn> Actually, my first recommendation is "Don't use signals" and if that's not avoidable, my alternate recommendation is "buy a copy of APUE"
18:58:59 <slack1256> hedonistic treadmill, haha.
18:59:11 <kw> I don't know what I'm doing either, which is why I ask here...
18:59:57 <merijn> kw: See recommendation two: Buy a copy of APUE ;)
19:00:09 <kw> Ugh. So as far as doing the best you can in Haskell, would you just use something like RIO's `bracket` ?
19:00:30 <merijn> In fact, I'll make a blanket statement and say that anyone writing a non-trivial amount of unix/posix code should buy a copy of APUE :p
19:00:57 <kw> In this case it's just making a strange, nonfunctional version of `bracket` for signals.
19:01:04 <merijn> kw: Do you have a semi-concise description what the current issue is, because I only got half of the forM_ stuff
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19:01:58 <kw> I'll get back to you...
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19:02:55 <monochrom> OK I guess HasAgeInt etc are not required, you just need one type family for membership, and it works for all records, all fields.
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19:06:51 <merijn> hmm
19:07:45 <merijn> "cabal build packagename" seems to only build the library, but not the executables, but there doesn't seem to be a wildcard target that builds everything in a package...
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19:08:28 <monochrom> Right, use "cabal build exe:<name of exe section>"
19:08:46 <merijn> monochrom: I want to build all components of the package
19:08:52 <monochrom> I think there is no "build all" but don't quote on me
19:09:07 <merijn> monochrom: "build all" builds *all* components of *all* packages
19:09:16 <merijn> I wanna build all components of *one* package
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19:13:06 <monochrom> Yeah it covers everything except the one case you need :)
19:13:22 <monochrom> It even has "all:exes" = all exes of all packages
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19:13:46 <merijn> Well, the docs say "packagename" is supposed to build all enabled components, so that *should* include the exes
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19:14:22 <merijn> So it's either 1) a bug or 2) exes are somehow disabled, but the latter seems unlikely, as they do get build with "build all"
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19:16:02 <merijn> There doesn't seem to be a flag for enabling exes either, just "enable-executable-{dynamic,static}"
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19:23:21 <monochrom> I think it works for me...
19:23:56 <monochrom> I have cabal.project saying "packages: csv-db". csv-db is a directory that has my csv-db package source
19:23:57 <merijn> monochrom: *facepalm* I messed up something in the makefile and got the wrong cabal.project copied over the one that worked previously >.>
19:24:16 <monochrom> "cabal build csv-db" builds it, it has one lib and one exe, both built.
19:24:23 <monochrom> :)
19:24:37 <merijn> Ah, no, it still doesn't work
19:24:54 <merijn> Ooooh
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19:25:21 <merijn> I think I found a *super* niche edge case where cabal-install recompilation thing-a-majig screws up
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19:38:21 <geekosaur> was gonna say, building all components works for me
19:38:56 <geekosaur> I kinda wouldn't be here otherwise, would still be debugging it and without ready access to much of anything until I got my wm back :)
19:39:33 <merijn> hmmm, nope, still hopelessly broken
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19:41:59 <merijn> I need to expliticly do package:exes to get it to build them, annoyingly
19:43:02 <merijn> monochrom, geekosaur: Aha!
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19:43:23 <merijn> I know what I'm doing that you guys almost certainly aren't
19:43:29 <merijn> Having multiple libraries
19:43:37 <geekosaur> oh, hm. possible
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19:44:33 <merijn> fgaz said it might be interpreting "foo" as "lib:foo" rather than the package, which would directly contradict the docs, but never trust the docs >.>
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20:07:13 <ph88^> is there a program which can collect all haskell source code comments for further processing ?
20:07:48 <Uniaika> ph88^: haddock-compliant comments?
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20:08:32 <ph88^> optionally
20:12:57 <Uniaika> haddocks are collected by GHC
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20:25:49 <koz_> Is there a way to get the full dependency tree of a project?
20:25:53 <koz_> (including transitives)
20:26:39 <merijn> @hackage cabal-plan
20:26:39 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cabal-plan
20:27:07 <koz_> merijn: Sweet!
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20:27:13 <koz_> I guess I just dump two cabal plans then diff?
20:27:19 <koz_> (if I wanna compare them)
20:27:30 <merijn> koz_: That requires you first produce a plan.json, though
20:27:36 <koz_> How does one do this?
20:27:39 <merijn> koz_: You could also create a freeze file and diff thos
20:27:55 <merijn> koz_: If you use run "cabal build" there's one under dist-newstyle already
20:28:02 <koz_> Ah, cool.
20:28:05 <merijn> I think --dry-run will create one without building anything
20:28:13 <koz_> Let me try that and see - thanks!
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20:37:40 <monochrom> If you don't mind a flat list, "cabal freeze" produces cabal.project.freeze, it is pretty informative too.
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20:42:02 <koz_> monochrom: Flat list would be OK.
20:42:08 <merijn> :O
20:42:24 <merijn> Achievement unlocked: Using cabal flags for their actual intended purpose!
20:42:54 <monochrom> What have you done? :)
20:43:30 <merijn> monochrom: I had an optional executable that depended on Chart-cairo, which rendered my package unbuildable on the cluster where cairo was unavailable
20:44:01 <merijn> monochrom: So I added a flag that defaults to True and adds a Chart-cairo dependency in the True branch and sets "buildable: False" in the false branc
20:44:23 <merijn> And it correctly builds the executable on my local machine while disabling it on the cluster without manual flag setting \o/
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20:47:16 <monochrom> I wonder how the computer figures it out.
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20:47:37 <merijn> monochrom: Chart-cairo uses pkg-config-depends to detect cairo version
20:47:51 <merijn> If pkg-config reports it as missing that triggers a build-plan failure
20:47:57 <monochrom> Yeah so it still has to give Chart-cairo a try before backtracking.
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20:49:03 <merijn> monochrom: Right, which with the default value of true sees Chart-cairo, fails, causes cabal-install to toggle the flag, which marks it unbuildable (and lacks the unsolvable Chart-cairo dependency) leading the build-plan to succeed
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20:49:50 <monochrom> This gives me a feeling of the movie «Next». OK every logic programming backtracking mechanism does that in general.
20:50:36 <merijn> monochrom: tbh, I quite lack the power of flags, I just feel that 95% of their use is people abusing them, so I'm not sure they're worth it over all
20:50:40 <monochrom> But yeah whoever decided that cabal's "if-then-else" is really Prolog was a genius with so much foresight.
20:50:53 <merijn> s/lack/like
20:51:01 <merijn> Dear brain: WTF was that?
20:51:16 <dolio> Nicolas Cage is the only one who can actually realize excluded middle?
20:51:25 <monochrom> But who knows? Maybe they didn't have foresight, they tried all possible futures and backtracked and found this optimal.
20:51:44 <merijn> monochrom: tbh, 80-90% of Cabal/cabal-install is "genius foresight" compared to npm/pip/gem and the likes
20:52:13 <merijn> Most programmers are lazy and never package their stuff properly, so they don't realise and complain that something takes two commands instead of one >.>
20:52:17 <monochrom> Also Dr. Strange "I have went through all 14.4M scenerios, this is the only one that wins"
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20:53:43 <dolio> That might even be good enough for the axiom of choice.
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20:54:29 <monochrom> hee hee
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20:55:12 <dolio> I guess that's why it's an "infinity" stone.
20:55:22 <monochrom> haha
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20:57:31 <joel135> i wonder why this doesn't typecheck? https://pastebin.com/raw/NDzA75YR
20:58:00 <merijn> joel135: It's help to pastebin the error too?
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20:58:56 <monochrom> No one reads error messages anyway.
20:59:06 <joel135> it is basically "cannot construct the infinite type: a ~ Set a", nothing more specific than that
20:59:13 <dolio> I read the line numbers.
20:59:19 <merijn> monochrom: The typechecker in my brain is in the shop
20:59:43 <monochrom> And all of me is going to afternoon tea.
21:00:31 <merijn> joel135: I mean, unless you expect us to mentally run the typechecker in our brain and figure out which part of your code that that error refers to, it'd help to paste, you know, the full exact error, rather than extrapolating from "basically"
21:00:32 <dolio> joel135: Oh, `singleton (close cp empty)` looks wrong.
21:00:41 <monochrom> But hey I can just make people read my tutorials.
21:00:55 <dolio> That's like a set of sets.
21:00:56 <joel135> oh wait there are more type errors now
21:01:51 <joel135> (https://pastebin.com/raw/dQVKBZf3)
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21:02:08 <monochrom> My http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/type-inference.html explains infinite types. (Example 5)
21:03:30 <joel135> oh, the return type Set a should actually be Set (Set a), maybe i can solve this now
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21:08:29 <joel135> hmm, now i have this https://pastebin.com/raw/Ah2CSVC2
21:09:35 <geekosaur> enumerate cp = iterate' f null (empty, singleton (close cp empty) :: Set (Set a))
21:09:41 <geekosaur> this does not do what you think
21:10:10 <joel135> 'enumerate cp' is supposed to be a certain set of subsets of 'bound cp'
21:10:10 <geekosaur> the "a" from the type signature above it is no longer in scope, so it's using a fresh "a" that can't match anything else
21:10:28 <geekosaur> you may want to look at the ScopedTypeVariables extension
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21:11:01 <joel135> debugging my debugging
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21:11:32 <joel135> oh, now it works all of a sudden, once i removed the type annotation
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21:12:11 <joel135> nice, thanks!
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22:05:17 <joel135> working code :) https://pastebin.com/raw/SPfKychn
22:06:14 <joel135> a little inefficient toward the end, but good enough
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22:25:49 <raehik> I just learned that I can install packages to the global Stack project with stack --package PKGNAME
22:26:08 <raehik> is it possible to configure things like default language pragmas as well?
22:26:28 <raehik> (and even better, if I could place this all in a file that the global project uses)
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22:35:29 <justsomeguy> raehik: Have you tried creating a package.yaml file in ~/.stack/global-project and adding things to that? (I don't know if this will work, but it seems worth trying.)
22:35:39 <ephemient> ~/.stack/global-project/stack.yaml is the config file for the stack global project and will affect usages of stack outside of any stack project. it has no effect when inside of a stack project
22:37:25 <ephemient> I guess you could put language extensions in global ghc-options
22:37:39 <ephemient> but what things do you it to apply to?
22:37:43 <raehik> justsomeguy: I have, it didn't appear to work (e.g. dependencies: [pkg] doesn't bring pkg in)
22:38:11 <ephemient> bring it into what?
22:38:11 <raehik> ephemient: it'd be handy for hacks and tests that don't have a project
22:38:35 <raehik> doesn't load that pkg, sry
22:39:02 <ephemient> dependencies: doesn't really add a dependency, it tells stack where to fetch a dependency from if it is needed
22:40:21 <ephemient> raehik: for one-off scripts, you can use the stack shebang. https://docs.haskellstack.org/en/stable/GUIDE/#script-interpreter
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22:41:55 <raehik> ephemient: ah thanks! I forgot about that. better than assuming the pkgs I want are available
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22:43:58 <DigitalKiwi> and if you just put a cabal/stack shebang after a nix-shell shebang you can make sure anything is installed
22:45:09 <DigitalKiwi> https://gist.github.com/Kiwi/ffc08bffb15798dc4b1ec2a1c47c6191#file-program-cabal-hs
22:45:34 <DigitalKiwi> i know, i know 'boo, nix bad, hisss'
22:46:54 <DigitalKiwi> how else are you going to do this though https://mostlyabsurd.com/files/binance
22:48:32 <raehik> you know what, that's great wtf
22:48:47 <DigitalKiwi> or this https://mostlyabsurd.com/files/clone-edward
22:49:49 <raehik> two ed kmetts is where i draw the line, sry
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22:52:18 <DigitalKiwi> i came up with the one in the gist just to see if it could be done as a challenge, turns out it's actually occasionally useful sometimes. like if something is broken in nixpkgs because it's broken or not in stackage then you can still compile it with cabal instead of using the nixpkgs cache, and if it's not broken you can use the cached version
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22:54:49 <raehik> I haven't done nix before, not found the need to
22:55:51 <raehik> I appreciate what it does (used Guix for a bit before), but I had enough trouble learning Haskell packaging already
22:56:09 <DigitalKiwi> don't start once you get hooked you need it
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22:57:35 <DigitalKiwi> eh i'm shit at nix (the language) so it's a bit tedious sometimes but i get by fine and overall i was a lot more frustrated without it >.>
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22:58:05 <DigitalKiwi> even maintain a few nixpkgs
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23:00:05 <isovector> totbwf: slack just got all weird for me
23:00:55 <DigitalKiwi> i usually just make a shell.nix that i can run normal cabal commands from so i pretty much just cargo cult the same file around and change the packages i want cached and then using cabal v2- as normal but
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23:01:32 <DigitalKiwi> https://gist.github.com/Kiwi/e055dc459d8c967851f1f76c7ac8a790 allows me to make sure i always have everything i need to build my website with hakyll
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23:02:20 <DigitalKiwi> i've tested it before; i can clone my website from a computer i've never been on before and it will let me build my site
23:02:40 <raehik> Neat
23:03:01 <raehik> I stick with Slack (or rather, avoid Cabal) for my own sanity while I'm still learning
23:03:18 <raehik> I'll make sure to look at Nix when that fails eventually
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23:03:51 <DigitalKiwi> i use cabal instead of stack for the same reason lol
23:03:57 <Uniaika> s/Slack/stack/ I think, raehik ;)
23:04:09 <DigitalKiwi> don't use slack or stack, problem solved
23:04:12 <raehik> ^ hah oops
23:07:01 <DigitalKiwi> other than making sure i have another ten versions of ghc what does stack supposedly do better these days than cabal? honest question even if snarky
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23:08:40 <sclv> it makes it easy to use the stackage package set
23:08:41 <DigitalKiwi> like, yeah, cabal used to have problems, but afaik it's fixed almost all of them? and i've yet to have an experience with stack that was any better :/
23:08:42 <sclv> that's it
23:09:00 <sclv> so if you want to have all stackage packages in scope by default and basically nothing else, then thats nice for you
23:09:17 <DigitalKiwi> i get that with nix ;D
23:11:04 <DigitalKiwi> https://dpaste.com/4KAEL7BF6
23:11:19 <monochrom> DigitalKiwi: A benefit is very pinned library versions, e.g., you just say "lts-..." and you have nailed a whole lot of library version numbers.
23:11:25 <raehik> I think I was burned by "how tf do I use Cabal" a year ago, when the v2 commands weren't recommended (or perhaps there were just no guides for them)
23:12:02 <sclv> monochrom: well again you get that with nix
23:12:10 <monochrom> Ah
23:12:13 <sclv> but arguably nix has somewhat moar rampup
23:12:28 <sclv> ie. i use it at work because we have nix people who solve that shit for me
23:12:39 <DigitalKiwi> monochrom: oh right yeah i saw snobyberg harass someone off of the internet over that one time on twitter for pointing out how they do it with cabal
23:12:51 <sclv> for personal projects i stick with v2 because its most convenient
23:13:05 <monochrom> haha harass
23:13:16 <DigitalKiwi> 'ardly know 'er
23:13:23 <monochrom> I mean yikes but also haha
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23:13:49 <monochrom> Then again the point is more stackage than stack.
23:14:00 <DigitalKiwi> new haskell user refugee from scala
23:14:31 <DigitalKiwi> deleted all of his tweets and account haven't seen him in... wow probaly years now?
23:15:35 <monochrom> Someone or some bot did check that each lts-xxx is a set of version numbers that build fine together. You don't have that on hackage. However, on cabal if you are happy with your current dependency version tree, you can "cabal freeze" and it's usually good enough.
23:16:47 <DigitalKiwi> oh they are alive at least they forked an emacs config 18 days ago
23:16:50 <monochrom> There is another point. It is a short-term benefit and a long-term hinderance to growth.
23:17:03 <Uniaika> DigitalKiwi: who was it?
23:17:08 <DigitalKiwi> fommil
23:17:11 <Uniaika> oh
23:17:21 <DigitalKiwi> :(
23:17:32 <Rembane> Maybe they stopped using Twitter and became super productive?
23:17:37 Rembane is naively optimistic
23:18:02 <monochrom> With stack you only need to know one tool, "stack", as a beginner. You don't need to know (yet) there is a GHC and it has a version number. Oh, stack decides to install 10 GHC versions behind your back? Well that's behind your back, you can look the other way.
23:18:05 <sclv> this is pure gossip but iirc fommil deleted their twitter because of more scala than haskell drama
23:18:17 <sclv> its been so long and who wants to remember/dredge up the specifics tho
23:18:47 <monochrom> In the long term though, the abstraction leaks, you will have to know eventually.
23:18:52 <DigitalKiwi> poor fommil :( writes a book for scala gives it away for free and then gets treated like shit by 'promininent' members of both scala and haskell 'communities' >.>
23:19:32 <sclv> anyway many people learn that once they delete twitter they're happier and more productive
23:19:39 <sclv> (i can think of a few more people i wish learned that, lol)
23:20:06 DigitalKiwi whispers to sclv "fommil is that you"
23:20:49 <monochrom> The ultimate lesson to learn: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/app-3
23:21:05 <Uniaika> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/ <- ah
23:21:14 <DigitalKiwi> yeah i guess i don't mean to imply fommil left solely because of snoyberg
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23:21:41 <sclv> lmao at the comic
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23:21:49 <Uniaika> hahaha
23:22:25 <DigitalKiwi> i mean bitemyapp was involved too in the same conversation (but yes i know it was probably more scala than haskell but it was sure of a hell of a welcoming party)
23:22:33 <sclv> reminds me of the old "phdcomics" or whatever with the student thinking about all the things their advisor might be thinking about them, and the advisor thinking "what should i have for lunch"
23:22:50 swarmcollective has never created a Twitter account, but has read maybe 5 or 6 tweets.
23:22:56 swarmcollective will probably keep it that way.
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23:24:20 <DigitalKiwi> i mostly only tweet when i make art and i haven't made art in a while so :(
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23:25:30 <DigitalKiwi> Uniaika: was lta broken when you went to it?
23:26:14 <DigitalKiwi> erm, well it's mysql, so arguably it was always broken, but what i mean is did it load?
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23:34:02 <raehik> hmm, Stack shebang with ghci doesn't seem to retain the language pragmas
23:34:49 <raehik> ah but that looks like common behaviour in ghci. dang
23:35:31 <raehik> my program is compiled with pragmas, but they don't get loaded in ghci so I have to :set -XOverloadedStrings
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23:37:47 <arahael> monochrom: But at the same time, you don't have to mess with complicated stuff such as cabal sandboxes, new-cabal, old-cabal, and all that stuff. But cabal today seems much simpler, I don't think I would have gone with stack today.
23:37:48 <swarmcollective> raehik, are you setting the pragmas at the top of the source files, or in the .cabal file, or in the cabal.project, or not using cabal?
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23:38:00 <arahael> monochrom: But in the past, I chose stack and didn't regret it.
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23:38:30 <raehik> swarmcollective: I'm setting pragmas in the source files, and executing them in shell (stack shebang that does exec ghci)
23:39:27 <swarmcollective> raehik, Ah. I've only used cabal repl. Though, I've not specifically tested if it recognized the pragmas in the source files.
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23:40:09 <raehik> turns out ghci never kept those pragmas for the repl
23:40:19 <raehik> stack ghci does (likely cabal repl too), but not regular ghci
23:40:30 <raehik> *stack ghci does if you use default-extensions
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23:49:33 <ephemient> if you just want default extensions in your ghci, feel free to add `:set -X...` to your ~/.ghci
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23:51:31 <ephemient> https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/ghci.html#the-ghci-files
23:55:25 <raehik> ephemient: yeah that sorts it well enough for me
23:55:30 <raehik> thanks
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All times are in UTC on 2021-02-11.