Logs on 2021-02-19 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 00:30:08 | <Axman6> | koz_: did you ever get your deriving via thing working? |
| 00:31:21 | <koz_> | Axman6: No - Iceland_jack basically said it's a 'wrong order' thing like dolio mentioned. |
| 00:31:26 | <koz_> | But I just wrote it by hand. |
| 00:31:33 | <koz_> | It's one method, so not too onerous. |
| 00:33:13 | <dolio> | Yeah, if you want to derive MPTCs, they basically need to be partially applied. |
| 00:33:33 | <dolio> | In a data type's `deriving` clause, that is. |
| 00:33:43 | <dolio> | The data type being defined needs to be the last argument. |
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| 00:35:10 | <dolio> | I think standalone deriving just lets you give any instance head, though. |
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| 02:50:54 | <guest218> | can we put IO actions into Cont? cont (a -> (IO ())) -> IO ()? |
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| 02:51:23 | <guest218> | what type it will be? Cont (IO ()) a? |
| 02:51:29 | <monochrom> | Yes. |
| 02:51:42 | <guest218> | or use ContT r IO a? |
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| 02:51:59 | <monochrom> | Depends on your needs and entirely up to you. |
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| 02:52:40 | <monochrom> | Broad questions beget broad answers. |
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| 02:53:44 | <guest218> | monochrom: but `runCont (x:: Cont (IO ()) a) (y:: a)` will extract one IO action? and I can put it into main? |
| 02:54:24 | <monochrom> | Have you tried? |
| 02:55:44 | <monochrom> | It won't incinerate your computer if you try actual code and make some mistakes and learn from the error messages, you know. |
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| 02:56:12 | <guest218> | yeap |
| 02:56:17 | <guest218> | main = runCont (cont (\k -> k (print "hi"))) id == "hi" |
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| 03:07:44 | <Axman6> | I disagree with that == :) |
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| 03:08:38 | ski | . o O ( "Not even wrong." ) |
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| 03:16:27 | <inkbottle> | I've found infinitely many monoid homomorphisms with codomain the natural numbers as additive monoid and domain the free monoid on the corresponding underlying set. And I have no idea which is Epsilon the co-unit. |
| 03:17:01 | <inkbottle> | One has to send empty list on zero. |
| 03:17:39 | <Axman6> | I know most of those words... |
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| 03:18:47 | <inkbottle> | It's a very dumb question, but it's really nagging me not to know the answer |
| 03:19:12 | <swarmcollective> | You had me up to monoid... :) |
| 03:19:20 | <inkbottle> | And I can't find which other properties would narrow the set of candidates |
| 03:19:21 | <karasu1[m]> | I was trying to experiment with Map, but something is wrong.. |
| 03:19:22 | <karasu1[m]> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/kq1BJEjm |
| 03:19:35 | <karasu1[m]> | The second time, m is not printed |
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| 03:19:40 | <karasu1[m]> | But it just says `fromList` |
| 03:20:03 | <karasu1[m]> | so i interrepted |
| 03:20:07 | <glguy> | karasu1[m], m = Map.insert 10 'c' m -- |
| 03:20:18 | <glguy> | you inserted m into itself |
| 03:20:28 | <karasu1[m]> | yea |
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| 03:20:49 | <karasu1[m]> | I wanted to put the pair 10 'c' in m |
| 03:20:54 | <glguy> | that's the same m on both sides |
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| 03:21:05 | <glguy> | > let xs = 1 : xs in xs |
| 03:21:07 | <lambdabot> | [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1... |
| 03:21:10 | <karasu1[m]> | Doesn't it take the previous value of m on the right side?? |
| 03:21:15 | <glguy> | of course not |
| 03:21:20 | <Axman6> | let x = ... x ... is a recursive definition, the mo on the righ t_is_ the m on the left |
| 03:21:23 | <guest218> | typical C... |
| 03:21:31 | <guest218> | c = c+1 |
| 03:21:33 | <Axman6> | > let ones = 1:ones in ones |
| 03:21:35 | <lambdabot> | [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1... |
| 03:22:09 | <Axman6> | dibblego: where's your recording for x = x+1 |
| 03:22:32 | <dibblego> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRszt-AlKOc |
| 03:22:37 | <karasu1[m]> | wait, but why only `fromList` is printed? |
| 03:22:45 | <karasu1[m]> | Why not like the 1:ones in ones example |
| 03:22:49 | <karasu1[m]> | a lot of 1s printed |
| 03:22:55 | <guest218> | karasu1[m]: try `m2 = Map.insert 10 'c' m`? |
| 03:22:56 | <karasu1[m]> | but nothing printed here |
| 03:23:04 | <karasu1[m]> | yea that works |
| 03:23:11 | <ski> | because `Map's aren't lazy like that |
| 03:23:12 | <glguy> | karasu1[m], because when you're printing a Map the printing function knows that you always start with fromList |
| 03:23:24 | <glguy> | but then it has no idea what elements should be in the map |
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| 03:24:09 | <karasu1[m]> | It's recursive, like the `let ones = 1 : ones in ones`, so why is this case different from the cons case? |
| 03:24:10 | <Axman6> | the Show instance for Map is basically: show mp = "fromList " ++ show (toList mp). if you can't produce that list, you can't print it |
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| 03:24:26 | <Axman6> | it's recursive in a way where it can't make any progress |
| 03:24:33 | <monochrom> | onoes dibblego is Tony Morris! |
| 03:24:35 | <glguy> | karasu1[m], because in the case of a map it has to know *all* of the elements to know what the first one will be |
| 03:24:44 | <Axman6> | with the ones example, there is always a known (:) |
| 03:24:49 | <dibblego> | monochrom: lolwot |
| 03:24:59 | <monochrom> | But nice video. I have a friend who had the same sentiment when learning BASIC. |
| 03:25:01 | <Axman6> | monochrom: you can't just dox people like that |
| 03:25:19 | <glguy> | so to print m = Map.insert 10 'c' m -- it asks, what would the first element of Map.insert 10 'c' m be, to answer that question insert needs to know the first element of m, this spins in a loop |
| 03:25:43 | <monochrom> | OK I'll dox myself too. I'm Albert Lai. |
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| 03:26:06 | <Axman6> | I can't believe you've done this |
| 03:26:07 | <glguy> | xs = 1 : xs -- we know what the first element of xs is going to be 1 from its definition; we don't have to look any further |
| 03:26:17 | <monochrom> | self-punishment |
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| 03:28:07 | <swarmcollective> | "That doesn't make any sense." Classic. :) |
| 03:28:28 | <karasu1[m]> | So `(toList m)` never terminates, so it can't be printed? hmmmm, but maybe I thought it would keep printing `fromList [(10, 'c'), (10, 'c'), ...` like the 1 :ones |
| 03:28:37 | <karasu1[m]> | dunno |
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| 03:29:24 | <glguy> | karasu1[m], no, maps don't contain repeated elements, and the elements are printed in order |
| 03:29:33 | ski | . o O ( "1930-1970, the time of codings : Consistency proofs, monstrous ordinal notations, ad hoc encodings, a sort of voluntary bureaucratic self-punishment." ) |
| 03:29:40 | <Axman6> | there is only one entry in the map with key 10 |
| 03:29:50 | <karasu1[m]> | oh yea!! |
| 03:29:59 | <karasu1[m]> | so it should print `fromList [(10, 'c')]` |
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| 03:30:09 | <karasu1[m]> | But I only get `fromList ` |
| 03:30:11 | <glguy> | karasu1[m], why? |
| 03:30:18 | <glguy> | we don't know what other elements are in the list |
| 03:30:21 | <glguy> | it doesn't guess |
| 03:30:28 | <glguy> | in the map |
| 03:30:54 | <glguy> | you didn't write: Map.insert 10 'c' Map.empty |
| 03:30:55 | <Axman6> | :t M.insert |
| 03:30:56 | <lambdabot> | Ord k => k -> a -> M.Map k a -> M.Map k a |
| 03:30:56 | <guest218> | fromList is just a data constructor, it shouldn't be alone, right? |
| 03:31:06 | <glguy> | fromList is not a data constructor, now |
| 03:31:10 | <glguy> | no* |
| 03:31:38 | <guest218> | then a function? |
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| 03:31:43 | <Axman6> | you might _think_ that if you insert something into a map, get the new map, and then insert the same thing again, it should just return the old map, but note that there is no way to tell that it is actually inserting the same thing again, there's no Eq a constraint |
| 03:31:52 | <ski> | > let scones x !xs = x:xs; sc = 1; ones = scones sc ones in ones |
| 03:31:55 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: <<loop>> |
| 03:32:01 | <glguy> | guest218, data constructor and function are different categories of things, but yes it's a variable and a function, too |
| 03:32:26 | <Axman6> | Data.Map's Show instance is quite inconsistent (though easier to ead than the derived instance would be). |
| 03:32:31 | <monochrom> | In this context, "fromList" is just how the Show instance of Map starts. Please don't read any deep subtext out of it. There is none. |
| 03:33:00 | <guest218> | is https://hoogle.haskell.org/ down? |
| 03:33:06 | <ski> | why inconsistent ? |
| 03:33:22 | <guest218> | @hoogle fromList |
| 03:33:22 | <lambdabot> | Data.List.NonEmpty fromList :: [a] -> NonEmpty a |
| 03:33:22 | <lambdabot> | GHC.Exts fromList :: IsList l => [Item l] -> l |
| 03:33:22 | <lambdabot> | Data.IntMap.Internal fromList :: [(Key, a)] -> IntMap a |
| 03:33:44 | <Axman6> | instance (Show k, Show v) => Show (Map k v) where show mp = "fromList " ++ show (toList mp) is pretty much exactly Map's Show instance |
| 03:34:01 | <karasu1[m]> | Yeaa |
| 03:34:21 | <karasu1[m]> | So to do `toList`, `mp` needs to be a value right? |
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| 03:34:35 | <karasu1[m]> | (I guess the WHNF maybe) |
| 03:35:01 | <ski> | (except defining `showsPrec' rather than `show', and properly using `showParen') |
| 03:35:02 | <karasu1[m]> | But we can never resolve a WHNF, is that correct? |
| 03:35:28 | <Axman6> | no, WHNF means the value has been evaluated far enough to know which constructor it is |
| 03:36:01 | <karasu1[m]> | OK |
| 03:36:11 | <karasu1[m]> | But `mp` needs to be a value then? |
| 03:36:27 | <monochrom> | In fact, "insert" already wants the old map to be a value. |
| 03:36:35 | <Axman6> | so, fior a list, it means we know if we have [] or a (:) with some value and another list, but it says nothing about the value or other list |
| 03:37:37 | <inkbottle> | This might be related to my Epsilon/Counit question: "How many adjunction give rise to the same monad?" That could explain why I've failed to pinpoint one counit. https://cpb-us-e1.wpmucdn.com/s.wayne.edu/dist/d/10/files/2018/02/kleisli6c-10zk5wx.pdf |
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| 03:38:16 | <guest218> | data Map k a = Bin {-# UNPACK #-} !Size !k a !(Map k a) !(Map k a) | Tip , you're right fromList isn't a data constructor |
| 03:38:50 | <glguy> | the give away was that it's lowercased |
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| 03:53:04 | <karasu1[m]> | Wait |
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| 03:53:06 | <karasu1[m]> | > let ones = 1:ones in ones |
| 03:53:09 | <lambdabot> | [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1... |
| 03:53:31 | <karasu1[m]> | It doesn't know all the values in the list right? |
| 03:53:33 | <karasu1[m]> | But it's still printing |
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| 03:53:50 | <karasu1[m]> | For `m`, it at least knows `(10, 'c')` is in the list |
| 03:53:50 | <Axman6> | that list is circular |
| 03:54:00 | <Axman6> | no it doesn't |
| 03:54:54 | <monochrom> | If you're so bent on seeing (10,'c') printed, try y = (10,'c') : undefined |
| 03:55:27 | <monochrom> | Map simply is a different data structure that wants to figure out the whole finite binary search tree before doing anything. |
| 03:55:31 | <karasu1[m]> | `(10, 'c')` can never be taken away from `m` right? |
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| 03:55:42 | <karasu1[m]> | Even given the recursive definition |
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| 03:56:08 | <monochrom> | Do you know binary search trees? |
| 03:56:12 | <Axman6> | logically, we know that as humans, burt the code cannot |
| 03:56:17 | <Axman6> | but* |
| 03:56:30 | <karasu1[m]> | Oh yeah, BST is cool |
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| 03:56:48 | <karasu1[m]> | left is less, right is more |
| 03:56:52 | <swarmcollective> | > let m = (10, 'c'):m in m |
| 03:56:54 | <lambdabot> | [(10,'c'),(10,'c'),(10,'c'),(10,'c'),(10,'c'),(10,'c'),(10,'c'),(10,'c'),(10... |
| 03:57:14 | <monochrom> | Do you know that to decide where to put your (10,'c') in a binary search tree, the insert algorithm needs to know a large chunk of the rest of the binary search tree? |
| 03:57:34 | <monochrom> | Do you know that your self-reference defeats that left right and centre? |
| 03:57:35 | <Axman6> | what you have essentially build is m = insert 10 'c' m ==> insert 10 'c' (insert 10 'c' (insert 10 'c' (insert 10 'c ... |
| 03:57:48 | <Axman6> | built* |
| 03:58:37 | <guest218> | > l2 = (print "hi"): l2 |
| 03:58:39 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:4: error: <hint>:1:4: error: parse error on input ‘=’ |
| 03:59:02 | <monochrom> | list is lazy, Map is not. Can you accept that? |
| 03:59:22 | <karasu1[m]> | Does Map have to print the preorder traversal then? |
| 03:59:23 | <guest218> | monochrom: Data.Map.Lazy is not lazy? |
| 03:59:29 | <monochrom> | No. |
| 03:59:41 | <monochrom> | It is lazy in the 'c'. |
| 04:00:05 | <monochrom> | If you do "insert 10 undefined oldmap" Data.Map.Lazy allows you, Data.Map.Strict does not. |
| 04:00:12 | <Axman6> | karasu1[m]: insert can't make any progress in inserting a value into the tree until it know if it has a Bin ot Tip constructor, so to find that out, it tries to evaluate the recursive insert, which needs to whenter it has a Bin or a Tip constructor, so it asks the next insert, which needs to know... |
| 04:00:26 | <monochrom> | The binary search tree structure itself? Don't kid yourself, it is non-lazy all along. |
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| 04:01:02 | <monochrom> | Look at all the !s in "!Size !k a !(Map k a) !(Map k a)". What do you think they mean? |
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| 04:01:11 | <swarmcollective> | It is eager turtles all the way down. |
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| 04:01:30 | <Axman6> | those values are strictly evaluated whenever that constructor is evaluated |
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| 04:02:13 | <monochrom> | Don't kid yourself. Binary search trees can't even be lazy on keys. |
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| 04:02:47 | <karasu1[m]> | Why not? |
| 04:02:59 | <monochrom> | How do you do BST insert? |
| 04:03:17 | <monochrom> | First you ask "is the old tree even empty?" |
| 04:03:37 | <monochrom> | That already kills a lot of fantasized laziness. |
| 04:03:39 | <karasu1[m]> | Even if the insert doesn't work, it should be possible to print the values we already have traversed, right? |
| 04:03:56 | <karasu1[m]> | `(10, 'c')` already exists |
| 04:03:56 | <monochrom> | Then you ask "may I compare the new key with the root key?" |
| 04:03:57 | <Axman6> | what values are there? |
| 04:04:00 | <karasu1[m]> | insert won't change taht |
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| 04:04:06 | <monochrom> | That kills more fantasized laziness. |
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| 04:04:24 | <Axman6> | karasu1[m]: you seem to be missing that in let m = insert 10 'c' m, the m's are _the same object_. there's is nothing already there |
| 04:05:06 | <karasu1[m]> | The first insert works though |
| 04:05:09 | <karasu1[m]> | right? |
| 04:05:23 | <glguy> | no |
| 04:05:35 | <karasu1[m]> | oh yeah.... |
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| 04:05:57 | <Axman6> | how can it? |
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| 04:07:10 | <Axman6> | the very first thing it needs to know is if we have an empty tree or not. to figure that out, it inspects the map it was passed, but that is an unevaluated call to insert 10 'c' ..., which can't return anything until it kinow what constructor it is looking at, so it inspects the value passed to it, which is an unevaluated call to insert ... |
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| 04:09:24 | <Axman6> | there is no map, only functions which promise to return maps, if they can evaluate their argument |
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| 04:10:45 | <karasu1[m]> | But the same argument can be made for `let ones = 1 : ones in ones` right? |
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| 04:10:53 | <Axman6> | no |
| 04:10:55 | <karasu1[m]> | How does Haskell know what ones is at the beginning |
| 04:10:58 | <karasu1[m]> | ? |
| 04:11:16 | <monochrom> | (:) is lazy. |
| 04:11:17 | <Axman6> | because whenever you evaluate ones, you immediately know which constructor you havem it is is _always_ (:) 1 ones |
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| 04:11:32 | <glguy> | suppose you had: head m |
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| 04:11:39 | <glguy> | well, let's replace m with its definition |
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| 04:11:42 | <glguy> | head (1 : m) |
| 04:11:44 | <glguy> | ok, so 1 |
| 04:12:10 | <glguy> | : is a data constructor I can match on, it's not computing with that second argument |
| 04:12:59 | <monochrom> | If you try to do insertion sort to ones, you will get nothing too. |
| 04:13:21 | <monochrom> | because insertion sort is very non-lazy on lists. |
| 04:13:43 | <glguy> | bad = sort (1 : bad) |
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| 04:14:00 | <monochrom> | Or more simply, try to "append 2 at the end of ones. ones ++ [2]" |
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| 04:14:12 | <glguy> | suppose we write: head bad |
| 04:14:31 | <monochrom> | and then "so 2 is in that list, why filter (== 2) can't find it???!!!" |
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| 04:14:45 | <glguy> | head (sort (1 : bad)) -- hmm, I still don't know what's first, now sort wants to look at the first element of bad |
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| 04:14:53 | <glguy> | head (sort (1 : sort (1 : bad)) |
| 04:14:56 | <glguy> | it's not better better |
| 04:15:45 | <leaksAlot> | Why does this leak |
| 04:15:45 | <leaksAlot> | main = do |
| 04:15:46 | <leaksAlot> | traverse (const (T.readFile "big-file")) [(0 :: Int) .. 5] >>= (print . (sum . fmap T.length)) |
| 04:15:46 | <leaksAlot> | forever performMajorGC |
| 04:17:36 | <glguy> | Because you loaded 6 big files into memory first, and then started taking their lengths? |
| 04:18:46 | <leaksAlot> | After the lengths are summed and printed memory usage stays put. |
| 04:19:28 | <glguy> | how are you measuring memory usage? |
| 04:19:39 | <leaksAlot> | top |
| 04:19:48 | <Axman6> | which OS? |
| 04:20:09 | <leaksAlot> | linux Ubuntu |
| 04:20:12 | <Axman6> | how/whether memory is released back to the OS depends on the OS IIRC. |
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| 04:20:17 | <glguy> | the runtime system doesn't necessarily return the memory back to the OS just because it GCd it |
| 04:20:42 | <glguy> | You'll need to use profiling tools that can see inside the Haskell heap to know if you have a leak |
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| 04:24:51 | <karasu1[m]> | Regardless of what the actual value of map is, we know that at the end of everything, `(10, 'c')` will exist in the Map because we're inserting it now right? Even if `(10, 'c')` is already in the Map, re-inserting it won't change that, right? So to me it still seems okay to say that `(10, 'c')` is in the map... |
| 04:25:16 | <Axman6> | _which_ map are we inserting into though? |
| 04:25:22 | <Axman6> | there isn't one |
| 04:25:55 | <glguy> | karasu1[m], it doesn't really matter if the key-value pair is "morally" in the map |
| 04:26:04 | <glguy> | it's not recoverably in there |
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| 04:26:27 | <karasu1[m]> | glguy: What do you mean by "recoverably"? |
| 04:26:29 | <glguy> | there's no Haskell Map in memory with it in there |
| 04:26:47 | <glguy> | lik you can say "It sure feels like it should be considered in the map" |
| 04:27:06 | <glguy> | but it's in no way in a map value |
| 04:27:14 | <glguy> | that you can detect with Haskell code |
| 04:28:05 | <Axman6> | karasu1[m]: I agree that ideally, if you wrote lookup 10 (insert 10 'c' anyMapAtAll) === Just 'c', but you cannot write an implementation for insert that is sufficiently lazy enough to be able to do that |
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| 04:28:35 | <Axman6> | (cannot may be a bit strong, it might actually be possible, but Data.Map's definition isn't lazy enough) |
| 04:28:58 | <glguy> | Now if you instead used an unordered associative list, you could do it |
| 04:29:09 | <glguy> | > let m = (10,'c') : m in lookup 10 m |
| 04:29:11 | <lambdabot> | Just 'c' |
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| 04:29:25 | <karasu1[m]> | Axman6: Wait do 3 equal signs mean something? |
| 04:30:14 | <Axman6> | type Map k v = k -> Maybe v; empty = \_k -> None; insert k v m = \k' -> if k == k' then Just v else mp k' -- this is a definiton for a map which can support those semantics, but is is also very inefficient |
| 04:30:34 | <Axman6> | karasu1[m]: just roughly "equivalent to", it's more maths than haskell |
| 04:31:35 | <Axman6> | uh, s/None/Nothing, soo much DAML |
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| 04:32:55 | <karasu1[m]> | OK, I guess it's more an implementation detail that we can have "online" lists, but only "offline" maps |
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| 04:38:22 | <c_wraith> | It's more of an implementation consequence than an implementation detail. a BST that allows arbitrary subsets of the keys with incremental inserts and removals? Yeah, that's going to need to force keys whenever it inserts a value |
| 04:39:19 | <c_wraith> | A BST which doesn't allow incremental updates and has as keys every value in the type? That can be done lazily! |
| 04:40:15 | <karasu1[m]> | What is an incremental insert |
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| 04:40:46 | <karasu1[m]> | ? |
| 04:40:52 | <c_wraith> | incremental (inserts and removals) |
| 04:41:07 | <c_wraith> | that is, you can add and remove keys one at a time |
| 04:41:34 | <kw> | How do I conditionally depend on a package if GHC (or base) is less than a certain version, in my project cabal file? |
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| 04:44:17 | <c_wraith> | use a conditional block in the cabal file that has an extra build-depends inside it |
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| 04:44:41 | <karasu1[m]> | c_wraith: Hmmm, what does printing `(10, 'c')` have to do with forcing keys though? |
| 04:44:51 | <karasu1[m]> | We know `(10, 'c')` is in the map |
| 04:46:00 | <Axman6> | karasu1[m]: if impl(ghc <= 8.4.0) build-depends: some-library |
| 04:46:04 | <Axman6> | uh, kw |
| 04:46:06 | <c_wraith> | kw: https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-package.html#conditional-blocks |
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| 04:47:51 | <h2017> | hi |
| 04:47:59 | <Axman6> | TIL ifs in cabal files can have else and elif clauses... |
| 04:47:59 | <kw> | Axman: I was getting a parse error on something like that. Do I need the 'if' at the outer level? |
| 04:48:07 | <h2017> | you know how a set and a list both have a singleton operation |
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| 04:48:26 | <Axman6> | I do know that |
| 04:48:41 | <h2017> | for instance with a list you can do [x] and get the singleton list with only x and for a set you can do 'singleton x'. Is there a class which unifies sets and lists? |
| 04:48:52 | <Axman6> | kw: https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-package.html#meaning-of-field-values-when-using-conditionals |
| 04:49:12 | <c_wraith> | karasu1[m]: you appear to be assuming a large degree of magic. GHC *doesn't know* that `insert 10 'c'` happens to make sure the created map has such a value. It only finds things out by evaluating expressions |
| 04:49:19 | <Axman6> | it goes at the same level as fields like build-depends: |
| 04:49:29 | <kw> | Ah, got it; thanks! |
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| 04:49:42 | <h2017> | i know that sets and lists are both monoids (or i think they are but that's not the only way they are related. they also have singleton elements and subtraction so is there another class besides monoids? |
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| 04:51:12 | <karasu1[m]> | c_wraith: Well, only for maps, not for lists right? That has to do with how Haskell is implemented though (in your words: "implementation consequence") |
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| 04:52:34 | <kw> | You may want 'pointed'. |
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| 04:52:49 | <kw> | Although that's been kind of morally deprecated. |
| 04:53:00 | <c_wraith> | karasu1[m]: nothing to do with how Haskell is implemented. Just how the functions and data types work. |
| 04:53:01 | <karasu1[m]> | I am willing to accept that Haskell behaves in a certain way, but you were talking in general terms though, in general about a BST |
| 04:53:05 | <kw> | point :: a -> p a |
| 04:53:39 | <karasu1[m]> | c_wraith: I don't see why GHC would be relevant then though... |
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| 04:56:19 | <ephemient> | type Map k v = k -> Maybe v; empty _ = Nothing; insert k v m k' | k == k' = Just v | otherwise = m k'; lookup k m = m k |
| 04:56:25 | <c_wraith> | karasu1[m]: The relevant thing about GHC is that it's restricted by what you tell it to do. It cannot do magic. |
| 04:56:26 | <ephemient> | let m = insert 10 'a' m in lookup 10 m |
| 04:56:55 | <ephemient> | so ^^ that kind of "map" is sufficiently lazy for ^ that kind of operation |
| 04:57:14 | <karasu1[m]> | It should be possible in theory, yeah |
| 04:57:16 | <c_wraith> | at only the cost of being just as bad performance-wise as an association list |
| 04:57:27 | <karasu1[m]> | The current GHC doesn't support this, and that I understand |
| 04:57:35 | <karasu1[m]> | But I don't think it's fair to call it magic.. |
| 04:57:39 | <c_wraith> | it's not a GHC limitation, except in that GHC cannot do the impossible |
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| 04:59:21 | <ephemient> | the "working" map there is O(n) lookup and insert with no traverse. Data.Map provides O(log n) lookup/insert and O(n) traverse. |
| 04:59:44 | <ephemient> | pick which one you want 🤷 |
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| 05:02:22 | <karasu1[m]> | Why is it impossible? For `m = Map.insert 10 'c' m`, we know that `(10, 'c')` will be in the map |
| 05:02:34 | <c_wraith> | who is "we"? |
| 05:02:38 | <edwardk> | linear types in haskell are fun, but still have some sharp edges. i can see how i could get drawn into playing with them a lot though |
| 05:02:41 | <c_wraith> | you're assigning magic to GHC |
| 05:02:46 | <glguy> | karasu1[m], what will you do with that knowledge? |
| 05:02:52 | <c_wraith> | GHC can only evaluate code |
| 05:03:10 | <karasu1[m]> | just like in `let ones = 1 : ones`, we know 1 is in the list |
| 05:03:11 | <karasu1[m]> | me and you |
| 05:03:14 | <ephemient> | even if GHC could perform magic, that would not follow the semantics of Haskell (and how Data.Map is implemented) |
| 05:03:16 | <glguy> | karasu1[m], I know it's not |
| 05:03:19 | <glguy> | you don't seem convinced yet |
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| 05:03:34 | <ephemient> | maybe this is clearer. the list is `let ones = (:) 1 ones` |
| 05:03:50 | <ephemient> | but the Map.insert is a function which needs to destructure its input |
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| 05:04:38 | <edwardk> | > let ones = const ones 1 -- passes the same visual inspection, and remember 1 is actually fromInteger 1, so there's also a function in between you and that pure syntactic deduction |
| 05:04:40 | <lambdabot> | <no location info>: error: |
| 05:04:40 | <lambdabot> | not an expression: ‘let ones = const ones 1 -- passes the same visual in... |
| 05:04:47 | <edwardk> | > let ones = const ones 1 |
| 05:04:49 | <lambdabot> | <no location info>: error: |
| 05:04:49 | <lambdabot> | not an expression: ‘let ones = const ones 1’ |
| 05:04:52 | <edwardk> | > let ones = const ones 1 in ones |
| 05:04:54 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: <<loop>> |
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| 05:06:05 | <karasu1[m]> | I think Axman mentioned earlier, but in an ideal world, `lookup 10 (insert 10 'c' anyMapAtAll) === Just 'c'` works |
| 05:06:11 | <karasu1[m]> | Not in Haskell |
| 05:06:19 | <c_wraith> | karasu1[m]: What does haskell have to do with it? |
| 05:06:21 | <ephemient> | karasu1[m]: and not with any BST implementation |
| 05:06:31 | <ephemient> | that is not a Haskell limitation |
| 05:06:34 | <karasu1[m]> | Haskell doesn't have anything to do with it |
| 05:06:35 | <c_wraith> | karasu1[m]: the issue is that you're using a BST that needs to support inserts |
| 05:06:50 | <karasu1[m]> | right... |
| 05:06:51 | <ephemient> | ok, in theory you could store a single-element cache or something like that |
| 05:07:03 | <karasu1[m]> | oh yeah |
| 05:07:09 | <ephemient> | but if you tried to make it more general you would lose the O(log n) nature of a BST |
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| 05:07:33 | <c_wraith> | karasu1[m]: this is just a consequence of the choices of what code to use. If the compiler tries to change things behind your back, it will break things. |
| 05:08:13 | <edwardk> | data NotInt = NotInt; instance Eq NotInt where _== _ = False; instance Ord NotInt where compare _ _ = LT; instance Num NotInt where fromInteger _ = NotInt; lookup 10 (insert 10 'c' (Map.singleton 10 20 :: Map NotInt Int)) === Nothing |
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| 05:09:17 | <edwardk> | you could try to make a bunch of RULES to enforce your above reasoning, but they'll basically never fire in real code. |
| 05:09:36 | <ephemient> | also rewrite rules that change semantics seem pretty evil |
| 05:09:45 | <glguy> | karasu1[m], don't confuse the Map type from containers with an idealized notion of matching keys to values |
| 05:10:41 | <edwardk> | and sorry, replace the Map NotInt Int with Map NotInt Char -- i forgot what you were inserting. |
| 05:12:13 | <edwardk> | has anyone else been playing with the linear types stuff yet? |
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| 05:12:22 | <karasu1[m]> | We don't necessarily have to have a cache though.. |
| 05:12:25 | <ephemient> | so there is a data structure known as a splay tree in which the root is always the most recently accessed element |
| 05:12:31 | <karasu1[m]> | Just print the elements as you see them |
| 05:12:34 | <karasu1[m]> | Being inserted |
| 05:12:43 | <edwardk> | ephemient: which works great. but not every _read_ needs to do tree mutation. |
| 05:12:44 | <ephemient> | karasu1[m]: then you ruin the performance of delete |
| 05:12:46 | <edwardk> | er now |
| 05:12:58 | <edwardk> | so you have to stash it behind some kind of pointer based facade |
| 05:13:10 | <edwardk> | or deal with threading the output tree through every call to read |
| 05:13:13 | <karasu1[m]> | ephemient: I don't think so, because you still end up with a BST in the end |
| 05:13:43 | <ephemient> | karasu1[m]: feel free to try to implement it in pure Haskell |
| 05:13:43 | <karasu1[m]> | But you still have to do n inserts at the very very beginning |
| 05:13:58 | <karasu1[m]> | When you do these n inserts, just print out the things being inserted |
| 05:14:11 | <karasu1[m]> | idk |
| 05:14:18 | <ephemient> | what if you do insert 'a' 2 (insert 'a' 1 empty) |
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| 05:15:02 | <karasu1[m]> | yeeee |
| 05:15:09 | <karasu1[m]> | I'm not a computer scientist... |
| 05:15:10 | <karasu1[m]> | ur right |
| 05:15:29 | <karasu1[m]> | what i said won't work |
| 05:17:26 | <edwardk> | karasu1[m]: other things pop up with trying to track values inside of containers through control flow in the compiler. e.g. what happens when you insert it in one branch of an if but not another? etc. as you start to work it out once the language becomes non-trivial the rules you need to make up become larger and larger until they become impossible to write |
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| 05:26:29 | <karasu1[m]> | Right |
| 05:27:05 | <karasu1[m]> | `type Map k v = k -> Maybe v; empty _ = Nothing; insert k v m k' | k == k' = Just v | otherwise = m k'; lookup k m = m k` |
| 05:27:09 | <karasu1[m]> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/LbYBrhQB |
| 05:27:10 | <c_wraith> | I think they actually become flat-out impossible in a Turing-complete language |
| 05:27:15 | <karasu1[m]> | Is ^ the right way to format it? |
| 05:27:23 | <karasu1[m]> | I thought the `type` keyword was for type synonyms? |
| 05:27:29 | <karasu1[m]> | But I don't understand it.. |
| 05:27:57 | <c_wraith> | no. lines 2-6 need to be brought back one indentation level |
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| 05:29:22 | <c_wraith> | Note that that representation is is basically an association list in disguise |
| 05:29:58 | <karasu1[m]> | Why does insert have 4 arguments? `insert k v m k'`? |
| 05:30:09 | <karasu1[m]> | I guess I don't understand k' |
| 05:30:49 | <c_wraith> | there's nothing special about the letters |
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| 05:31:21 | <dolio> | Thinking about the types of them alal might help. |
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| 05:32:48 | <karasu1[m]> | Would you use it like `insert 1 'a' m 2` or something? |
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| 05:33:00 | <c_wraith> | not usually |
| 05:33:01 | <karasu1[m]> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/Zgv9KoJN |
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| 05:33:15 | <karasu1[m]> | reindented |
| 05:33:20 | <karasu1[m]> | How would you use it? |
| 05:33:39 | <karasu1[m]> | Because the usual insert only has 3 arguments |
| 05:33:46 | <karasu1[m]> | Not sure what the last one is here for |
| 05:34:29 | <ephemient> | because Map k v = k -> v |
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| 05:34:57 | <ephemient> | if it helps you to think of it as `insert k v m = \k' ->` then do so |
| 05:35:51 | <ephemient> | (this sort of map-via-function-composition is one of the first exercises in every functional programming course) |
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| 05:41:09 | <karasu1[m]> | Here, `Map` is a type constructor right? |
| 05:41:25 | <ephemient> | no, Map is a type synonym |
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| 05:41:50 | <karasu1[m]> | For the type `k -> Maybe v`? |
| 05:42:08 | <karasu1[m]> | I've never seen the type `k -> Maybe v` before, so I am confused |
| 05:42:24 | <c_wraith> | It's not special |
| 05:42:26 | <ephemient> | :t lookup |
| 05:42:27 | <lambdabot> | Eq a => a -> [(a, b)] -> Maybe b |
| 05:42:38 | <ephemient> | well, aside from the [] in the middle, it's exactly that type |
| 05:42:49 | <ephemient> | :t flip lookup undefined -- :) |
| 05:42:51 | <lambdabot> | Eq a => a -> Maybe b |
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| 05:52:19 | <karasu1[m]> | I don't get it.. |
| 05:52:24 | <karasu1[m]> | How would you call insert? |
| 05:53:18 | <karasu1[m]> | m = Map 1 (Maybe 5) |
| 05:53:27 | <karasu1[m]> | insert 10 20 m |
| 05:53:27 | <karasu1[m]> | ? |
| 05:53:48 | <monochrom> | "m = Map 1 (Maybe 5)" sounds like confusing types with terms. |
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| 05:54:47 | <ephemient> | m = insert 1 5 empty |
| 05:55:01 | <ephemient> | or m 1 = Just 5; m _ = Nothing |
| 05:55:32 | <ephemient> | that particular Map representation is (not secretly at all) just a function |
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| 05:58:52 | <ephemient> | > let nan = 0/0 in M.fromList [(nan, 1), (nan, 2)] |
| 05:58:54 | <lambdabot> | fromList [(NaN,1),(NaN,2)] |
| 05:59:16 | <ephemient> | > let nan = 0/0 in M.lookup nan (M.singleton nan 1) |
| 05:59:18 | <lambdabot> | Nothing |
| 05:59:45 | <ephemient> | don't put use IEEE 754 floats as keys |
| 06:00:06 | <monochrom> | You have discovered a BST implementation of /dev/null :) |
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| 06:00:22 | <karasu1[m]> | thanks |
| 06:00:28 | <karasu1[m]> | I will share with friends |
| 06:00:55 | <ephemient> | something Rust does more correctly: floats are PartialOrd/PartialEq, not Ord/Eq |
| 06:01:14 | <ephemient> | (but in practice it's a pain to deal with, so I dunno if it's practically worth the correctness) |
| 06:01:37 | <monochrom> | idealists gonna be ideal |
| 06:01:56 | <dolio> | NaN isn't the only reason not to put floating point numbers in a map. |
| 06:02:14 | <dolio> | (As keys) |
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| 06:02:55 | <ephemient> | at least everything else is well ordered and won't break invariants |
| 06:03:57 | <dolio> | Yeah, you'll only miss lookups because something rounded slightly differently. |
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| 06:09:11 | <karasu1[m]> | Is this how you call insert: `insert 1 2 m 5`? And `m` is just some arbitrary function? |
| 06:09:34 | <ephemient> | if you want a "Map" in return, leave off the final 5 |
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| 06:10:16 | <monochrom> | Actually who brought up "type Map k v = k -> Maybe v" and why? I don't see how the audience is ready for it. |
| 06:10:49 | <ephemient> | I did... didn't think it would be that far off the mark, sorry |
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| 06:11:13 | <ephemient> | > let empty = const Nothing; insert k v m k' | k == k' = Just v | otherwise = m k'; lookup = flip in lookup 1 $ insert 1 2 empty |
| 06:11:14 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 06:11:15 | <lambdabot> | • Could not deduce (Eq b0) |
| 06:11:15 | <lambdabot> | from the context: (Eq b, Num b, Num a, |
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| 06:11:58 | <ephemient> | oh right monomorphism |
| 06:12:01 | <karasu1[m]> | monochrom: I think I know all the concepts in that example, it's just that I'm probably not familiar enough with the concepts to understand them in an instant though |
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| 06:12:21 | <ephemient> | > let empty _ = Nothing; insert k v m k' | k == k' = Just v | otherwise = m k'; lookup k m = m k in lookup 1 (insert 1 2 empty) |
| 06:12:23 | <lambdabot> | Just 2 |
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| 06:20:05 | <monochrom> | http://www-users.math.umn.edu/~rogness/math1001/syllabus/node20.html |
| 06:20:19 | <monochrom> | "understanding everything in class but blanking out on the exams" is golden |
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| 06:21:32 | <monochrom> | Accurately reflects what most people mean by "understand" if it means they can't do anything. |
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| 06:23:16 | <karasu1[m]> | :( |
| 06:23:24 | <karasu1[m]> | This is like class for me though, so I am learning |
| 06:23:42 | <karasu1[m]> | I've read through most of the first half of Learn yourself a haskell |
| 06:23:54 | <karasu1[m]> | Want to go through the rest this weekend |
| 06:24:09 | <karasu1[m]> | But yeah, I actually understand this thing now though |
| 06:24:14 | <karasu1[m]> | I think anyway |
| 06:24:19 | <monochrom> | That's what's wrong. Too fast. |
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| 06:25:02 | <karasu1[m]> | I don't claim that I will have understood all of it by this weekend |
| 06:25:05 | <dminuoso> | Lately I've begun to realize, that only now am I growing deeply comfortable with many parts of Haskell. That's after 2 1/2 years of Haskell now. :) |
| 06:25:11 | <karasu1[m]> | Nor that I understand the first half now, probably |
| 06:25:26 | <dminuoso> | Much of understanding also comes from spaced repetition learning/practice |
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| 06:25:54 | <karasu1[m]> | spaced repetition.... is this about flashcards.. |
| 06:26:28 | <ephemient> | anything that involves recall, not just flashcards |
| 06:27:18 | <dminuoso> | karasu1[m]: https://youtu.be/Z8KcCU-p8QA?t=651 |
| 06:27:20 | <karasu1[m]> | I have seen people recommend flashcards for programming |
| 06:27:27 | <karasu1[m]> | not sure how useful it actually would be |
| 06:27:43 | <dminuoso> | flashcards seems useful for cramming before the exam, and then forgetting everything. |
| 06:27:44 | <dminuoso> | :) |
| 06:28:00 | <dminuoso> | For anything else, practice is what actually gains experience |
| 06:28:05 | <karasu1[m]> | Well, only if you do them before the exam |
| 06:28:05 | <dminuoso> | Repeated practice. |
| 06:28:10 | <karasu1[m]> | What if you do it over a lifetime? |
| 06:28:12 | <karasu1[m]> | Flashcard review? |
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| 06:28:42 | <dminuoso> | There's a difference between recalling some piece of information, and understanding it so you can adapt it or synthesize it. |
| 06:28:43 | <karasu1[m]> | Spaced repetition makes sure that you will see the cards you know well less often, and so you eventually see a card only like once every 5 years or something |
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| 06:29:04 | <karasu1[m]> | yea... |
| 06:29:06 | <karasu1[m]> | iodk |
| 06:29:09 | <karasu1[m]> | idk |
| 06:29:12 | <karasu1[m]> | I'm bad at programming |
| 06:29:48 | <karasu1[m]> | dminuoso: yes, I've seen all the lectures on Ebbinghaus' curve ... |
| 06:30:44 | <karasu1[m]> | I was always too busy during class to actually make cards though |
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| 06:34:50 | <monochrom> | No, flash cards and a lot of other popular methods of learning are for a different kind of learning. |
| 06:36:14 | <monochrom> | Suppose there is a course that goes through 300 years of visual arts, and the learning objective, as made clear by the exam, is that for every painting they show you, you can write down the artist, the era, the {renaissance, impressionist, modernist, abstractist, whatever} classification. |
| 06:36:48 | <monochrom> | Then that kind of learning is where you use flash cards and all the other popular methods of learning that all those "experts" of learning are talking about. |
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| 06:37:08 | <monochrom> | Clearly, programming is like the antipodal antithetical total opposite of that. |
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| 06:37:52 | <karasu1[m]> | I still think maths or programming can be adapted to it |
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| 06:37:59 | <monochrom> | No one is going to flash at you the name of the Java class AbstractArray and ask "quick, what are its methods?" |
| 06:38:11 | <monochrom> | You are not an IDE. |
| 06:38:14 | <karasu1[m]> | Prove this thing: $latex equation$ |
| 06:38:21 | <karasu1[m]> | Then the opposite side has the proof.. |
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| 06:38:40 | <dminuoso> | karasu1[m]: Math is not about memorizing proofs. |
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| 06:39:03 | <dminuoso> | Id say, one requirement for truly understanding a proof, is being able to synthesizse it. |
| 06:39:07 | <ephemient> | don't flash cards for that. |
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| 06:39:47 | <karasu1[m]> | dminuoso: I never claimed math was about memorizing proofs.. When you see the front, you do the proof on your own. The back of the card would just be an example proof or something. You still learn the proof techniques |
| 06:39:59 | <ephemient> | if you want to acquire by reading instead of doing (for some god forsaken reason), then at least read a proof technique in different contexts every time |
| 06:40:10 | <karasu1[m]> | You forget proof techniques if you don't practice them, it's true.. |
| 06:40:18 | ← | ricardollu21 parts (43e6a188@67.230.161.136.16clouds.com) () |
| 06:40:24 | <dminuoso> | And a flashcard doesnt help you understand how to apply proof techniques. |
| 06:40:36 | <dminuoso> | flashcards are just useful for memorizing associatinos |
| 06:40:48 | <dminuoso> | Say, when you learn a new language, they can help with vocabulary in the beginning |
| 06:40:51 | <dminuoso> | But they only help so far |
| 06:40:52 | <ephemient> | math is not about exact recall (unless you are a calculator) |
| 06:41:03 | <karasu1[m]> | If you see this math problem, what approaches can you take? the back of the card might have those approaches.. |
| 06:41:08 | <monochrom> | Now, if you were the author of all those proofs on your flashcards, that's different... |
| 06:41:39 | <ephemient> | that's not something to be memorized either |
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| 06:42:15 | <monochrom> | I need to tell you a great scene in a Kung Fu novel in Hong Kong. |
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| 06:43:01 | <ephemient> | you need to get good at pattern recognition to decide which techniques to use. that comes from seeing it in use in a variety of different ways, not seeing the same problem again and again |
| 06:43:21 | <dminuoso> | Oh, martial arts is an interesting piece. Id argue that flashcards helps becoming a proficient programmer just as much as flashcards help you become a proficient fighter.. |
| 06:43:31 | <dminuoso> | .. namely not at all |
| 06:43:31 | <monochrom> | A great master is heavily injured (long story), and some villains are taking advantage of this by challenging him to a duel right at this unfortunate time. |
| 06:44:28 | <monochrom> | Fortunately the son of the master's late student is around and offers to be a substitute. |
| 06:45:37 | <monochrom> | The great master says "thanks but you need to learn my latest invention or else you won't stand a chance in this case, my opponent is world class with swords" |
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| 06:46:29 | <monochrom> | So the great master taught his new sword moves to the young man on the spot. Then asks, "OK, done, how much can you remember?" Answer: "about 70%" |
| 06:47:30 | <monochrom> | Great master says "yeah it's tough, let me show you again". After showing again (actually this time looks pretty different from the first time, hint hint), the great master asks, "so how much do you remember now?" "30%" |
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| 06:48:33 | <monochrom> | "Good, I guess I just need to show one more time." And after, "how much now?" "Yeah I've pretty much forgotten it all." "Great! Now you're ready." |
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| 06:51:56 | <monochrom> | Thanks dminuoso for the video link by the way, I think I'm interested too. |
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| 06:53:59 | <karasu1[m]> | monochrom: what do you want to memorize with spaced repetition btw |
| 06:54:34 | <monochrom> | My passwords? |
| 06:58:17 | <h2017> | how do i express -1 other than 0-1? |
| 06:58:26 | <karasu1[m]> | (-1) |
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| 07:07:03 | <karasu1[m]> | So `(insert 1 2 empty)` and `empty` are of type `k -> Maybe v`, and you can keep applying insert key value on `(insert 1 2 empty)` to get more things of type `k -> Maybe v` |
| 07:07:06 | <karasu1[m]> | Looks like cons |
| 07:07:07 | <karasu1[m]> | yay |
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| 07:15:32 | <karasu1[m]> | ephemient: (Yes, even this might just be an introductory course thing, it was slightly hard.. I tried..) |
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| 07:19:22 | <ephemient> | karasu1[m]: this or a similar exercises are usually intended to get students accustomed to treating functions like any other data |
| 07:19:31 | <ephemient> | if you understand it, try implementing `delete`? |
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| 08:14:36 | <theodorc> | does anyone have a good resource on learning parsing in Haskell? was trying to find something with Parsec, but most seems heavily outdated |
| 08:15:03 | <dibblego> | https://github.com/system-f/fp-course/blob/master/src/Course/Parser.hs |
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| 08:15:59 | <theodorc> | dibblego: nice, I'll have a look |
| 08:16:12 | <Franciman> | there is also the tutorial of megaparsec, as a second step |
| 08:16:30 | <Franciman> | https://markkarpov.com/tutorial/megaparsec.html |
| 08:16:38 | <Franciman> | but as a second step |
| 08:16:51 | <Franciman> | it is mostly going to explain the library with examples |
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| 08:17:26 | <theodorc> | hmm, okay. does megaparsec fill a different role than parsec? |
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| 08:19:08 | <Uniaika> | no, it fills parsec's role |
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| 08:19:15 | <[exa]> | not much, it's just newer, better, faster, and has nicer errors |
| 08:19:22 | <theodorc> | ah nice |
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| 08:23:05 | <desophos> | hi all, i'm trying to generate functions with quickcheck that satisfy certain predicates. the problem is, my tests never finish because it takes a long time to satisfy these constraints. is there a better way than using `suchThat`? this is what i have (slightly simplified): https://paste.tomsmeding.com/7XxnvbZX |
| 08:23:42 | <[exa]> | theodorc: anyway, the best way to get a catch of monadic parsing is, as usual, to reimplement it. Which is not very hard if you know how to implement monad interfaces for State and Maybe, and explains the problem nicely |
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| 08:25:04 | <[exa]> | desophos: you probably need a more smart (ie. more directed) way to generate the Arbitrary values that would match the predicate. What about wrapping it in a newtype and making a custom one? |
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| 08:27:22 | <desophos> | yeah, i thought about doing that; since the function is just `[Int] -> [Int]`, i think it would work |
| 08:27:52 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that megaparsec was newer, cooler, and had better errors, but was not necessarily _faster_; is my prejudice wrong? |
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| 08:28:15 | <desophos> | but if it were generic, i guess i wouldn't be able to set such specific constraints in the first place (specifically (>)) |
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| 08:30:04 | <desophos> | (it could be `Ord a => [a] -> [a]` or whatever, but i mean in general) |
| 08:30:34 | <theodorc> | [exa]: yeah, I should probably try that first to get the hang of it |
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| 08:32:51 | <[exa]> | desophos: it's pretty hard to generate arbitrary values for arbitrary types :] |
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| 08:34:46 | <[exa]> | theodorc: there are simple code snippets that generate the intuition pretty quickly; say a parser for stuff in parentheses: `parenthesized p = do { char '('; res <- p ; char ')'; return res ; }` |
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| 08:35:51 | <[exa]> | theodorc: and you use that to parse either "(a)" or "b" using `parenthesizes (char 'a') <|> char 'b'` |
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| 08:36:18 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: the website said so, will check :D |
| 08:37:26 | <desophos> | [exa], that's fair! thanks for the nudge in the right direction |
| 08:37:44 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: https://github.com/mrkkrp/megaparsec#megaparsec-vs-parsec below there |
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| 08:38:14 | <tomsmeding> | yeah I just found it too |
| 08:38:29 | <tomsmeding> | maybe I should learn megaparsec then! :) |
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| 08:43:38 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: well if you are migrating from parsec, the hardest part is likely to get the imports right :D |
| 08:44:08 | <tomsmeding> | and know that 'string' now has an implicit 'try', I believe |
| 08:45:36 | <[exa]> | isn't that attoparsec? |
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| 08:47:22 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: see the last line in the docs of 'tokens': https://hackage.haskell.org/package/megaparsec-9.0.1/docs/Text-Megaparsec.html#v:tokens |
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| 08:48:03 | <[exa]> | ok wow, that explains a few things. |
| 08:48:09 | <tomsmeding> | :') |
| 08:48:48 | <tomsmeding> | I see that attoparsec does the same thing as you said |
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| 08:58:25 | <edwardk> | i'm experimenting with a little toy using backpack. https://github.com/ekmett/unlifted -- the idea is to build one library that exports a bunch of representations Int8Rep, etc. another which defines modules for each representation that offers classes for manipulating the, e.g. IntRep.Classes should let me write Num Int#, but i'm running headlong into what i _think_ is a backpack bug. |
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| 08:59:18 | <edwardk> | i'm mostly exploring this as a preamble to 9.2 getting unlifted data types, so i'd want to write a lot of code in TYPE (BoxedRep 'Lifted) and TYPE (BoxedRep 'Unlifted) both. |
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| 09:00:18 | <edwardk> | if this doesn't work my fallback is to use a crapload of CPP, but that precludes users using the background package themselves to offer support for their own data types build out of unboxed tuples and the like |
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| 09:00:49 | <edwardk> | i was wondering if someone else could check that code out and try to run it on ghc 9 and see if they can see the problem. |
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| 09:01:54 | <Uniaika> | edwardk: yeah sure I can do that |
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| 09:02:58 | <edwardk> | the little test.hs shows it works in one source file. that ghc can see through the obvious type synonym, but when it goes through backpack it can't figure it out |
| 09:02:59 | <Uniaika> | edwardk: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/zcXbo0iZ |
| 09:03:09 | <edwardk> | yeah that's the issue |
| 09:03:21 | <edwardk> | trying to figure out if it is backpack or just something i'm doing wrong. |
| 09:04:06 | <Uniaika> | edwardk: moreover, the test.hs explodes with ghc 9 because you haven't given a fixity for / |
| 09:04:13 | <merijn> | \o/ |
| 09:04:20 | <merijn> | NoFieldSelectors has merged! |
| 09:04:40 | <merijn> | I can't wait for the glorious day of 9.2 release :> |
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| 09:05:34 | Uniaika | is waiting for RecordDotSyntax and MutableFields |
| 09:07:18 | <merijn> | RecordDotSyntax is a mistake, imo |
| 09:07:24 | <merijn> | It just makes everything *worse* |
| 09:07:55 | <merijn> | It requires a whole bunch of super contrived special cases in syntax, funky parse rules, etc. |
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| 09:08:19 | <merijn> | If Haskell had banned operators without surrounding whitespace from the start it'd be reasonable |
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| 09:08:44 | <merijn> | as it is, retrofitting . based record selection will only make things a ton more confusing |
| 09:08:47 | <edwardk> | Uniaika: yeah i removed fractional from that file to strip it down. my bad |
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| 09:09:47 | <edwardk> | i'm not looking forward to the effect on stylized lens code |
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| 09:10:22 | <Uniaika> | well, it's not a default extension so I guess the answer is "if you already use lens to access record fields, don't enable it ;)" |
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| 09:10:54 | <merijn> | edwardk: I think the whole amibiguity will lead to fringe adoption of RecordDotSynax, which leads to further unfamiliarity with its weirdness, which will lead to it languishing and dying |
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| 09:11:15 | <edwardk> | unsure |
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| 09:11:16 | <Uniaika> | we're not doomed to face, powerless, the effects of RecordDotSyntax on our codebases. If someone complains that it breaks their code, they have enabled it by hand |
| 09:11:24 | <edwardk> | i don't _hate_ it. |
| 09:11:31 | <edwardk> | i don't _like_ it, either. |
| 09:11:32 | <merijn> | Uniaika: That's not what I'm saying |
| 09:11:48 | <merijn> | Uniaika: Of course it's opt-in |
| 09:12:08 | <merijn> | Uniaika: But it turns an already fairly messy grammar into a clusterfuck unfit for humans |
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| 09:12:34 | <edwardk> | Uniaika: i have a lot of sympathy about the arguments of haskell breaking into largely incompatible dialects. everything is opt-in, but it starts meaning that teams either have folks come in with different styles and have increased ramp-up time while they hammer out differences or you start to slip towards perl, write-only code. |
| 09:12:44 | <Uniaika> | merijn: bold of you to suggest it was fit for humans *before* :P |
| 09:12:51 | <merijn> | I'm sorry, but "Foo.bar", "Foo. bar", "Foo .bar" and "Foo . bar" all having *different* meanings is insane |
| 09:12:59 | <edwardk> | i also realize that i shouldn't be all that 'get off my lawn' about this, given how much crap i got for lens doing the same thing to everyone. |
| 09:13:07 | <merijn> | Anyone who thinks that's reasonable should be banned from language design |
| 09:13:19 | <merijn> | Like, I'm gonna take your PL license and shred it... |
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| 09:13:45 | <merijn> | It's so crazy, that you probably didn't even notice I lied |
| 09:14:00 | <merijn> | Only *3* of those 4 have unique meanings with RecordDotSyntax |
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| 09:14:14 | <merijn> | Now guess which ones are duplicates of eachother... |
| 09:14:15 | <tomsmeding> | presumably the middle two are the same? |
| 09:14:22 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: No |
| 09:14:25 | <tomsmeding> | nice |
| 09:14:29 | <danza> | :( |
| 09:14:29 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: The 2nd and last are |
| 09:14:41 | <merijn> | Oh, actually |
| 09:14:45 | <[exa]> | :D |
| 09:14:55 | <Uniaika> | merijn: you do realise that they went for the conservative choice, right? |
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| 09:14:58 | <Uniaika> | r .x is illegal |
| 09:15:31 | <merijn> | I guess the RecordDotSyntax changes the meaning of the first... |
| 09:15:55 | <merijn> | Uniaika: When I last looked at the proposal that one was still a choice, so I guess that *marginally* improves thing |
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| 09:16:46 | <merijn> | If we had banned "operators without whitespace" neither this nor unary minus would've been the problem they are :\ |
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| 09:18:22 | <[exa]> | (also, alpha letters in operators!) |
| 09:19:08 | <Uniaika> | [exa]: you can just use the backticks :P |
| 09:19:25 | <merijn> | [exa]: No, that wasn't a mistake |
| 09:19:35 | <Uniaika> | merijn: I do agree that banning operators without whitespaces can preserve us from headaches |
| 09:19:53 | <[exa]> | Uniaika: but I want my magic --λ-> arrow |
| 09:19:54 | <merijn> | I think having operators and non-operators lexically distinct (same with constructor names and variable names) is a great idea |
| 09:20:33 | <Uniaika> | [exa]: This shit won't pass code review! :< |
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| 09:21:55 | <maralorn> | I think it's fair to say that math is less about memorizing stuff than other subjects. But in my experience students often underestimate how much it is about memorizing stuff. Having flashcards for theorems and definitions can be really helpful imo. Of course memorizing a theorem without understanding it’s meaning does not help at all. |
| 09:22:56 | merijn | is unsure whether that is related to the current discussion |
| 09:23:46 | <maralorn> | merijn: I am sorry, I wanted to contribute to the discussion from three hours ago. |
| 09:23:57 | <merijn> | Uniaika: Anyway, I remain thoroughly unconvinced. Record syntax really hasn't been that big a pain point for me and the part that *is* extremely painful to me is fixed by NoFieldSelectors :) |
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| 09:24:29 | <merijn> | Being able to safely mix record syntax and sumtypes \o/ |
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| 09:25:06 | <maralorn> | merijn: Also the matrix bridge seems to be very lossy right now which means that I didn‘t even see that there is an ongoing discussion. /o\ |
| 09:25:31 | <merijn> | :p |
| 09:25:45 | <hc> | maralorn: you joined right before saying that first line |
| 09:26:34 | <edwardk> | i found the issue i think. |
| 09:26:42 | <Uniaika> | edwardk: what was it? |
| 09:26:45 | <maralorn> | hc: I understand how that can look awkward.^^ |
| 09:26:56 | <edwardk> | the renaming of the IntRep module to IntRep.Rep was confusing something in the typechecker. there seems to be a ghc bug |
| 09:27:01 | <edwardk> | but i have a workaround i think |
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| 09:37:59 | <edwardk> | woot. it works |
| 09:38:06 | <edwardk> | now to make it pretty |
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| 09:40:01 | <edwardk> | ok, the export branch works now |
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| 09:51:12 | <Uniaika> | edwardk: \o/ |
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| 09:57:56 | <edwardk> | added FloatRep |
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| 09:58:30 | <javran> | hey guys, just a quick question: if I have an ADT, say `data Foo = X | Y`, can I do something so it is coercible to Bool? (i.e. convince ghc that it can make a `Coercible Foo Bool`) |
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| 09:58:45 | <edwardk> | Show is going to be tricky as it wants a list type |
| 09:59:17 | <edwardk> | and i don't know that i want to get into the business of making Maybe, List, etc. for every possible TYPE rep |
| 10:00:02 | <edwardk> | Maybe i could fake by making it a type synonym around (# (##) | a #) -- or something |
| 10:00:35 | <edwardk> | OTOH i have a bunch of rebindable syntax stuff i could do in theory |
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| 10:25:42 | <tomjaguarpaw> | Does anyone find that ghcid sometimes stops picking up changes? It seems that this is connected to changing between git branches. Am I doing something obviously wrong? |
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| 10:26:13 | <edwardk> | usually anything that changes the cabal file breaks you |
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| 10:26:35 | <tomjaguarpaw> | Interesting. That would explain it, I thin. |
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| 10:41:30 | <desophos> | ok, i'm stumped. i'm trying to generate an `[a] -> [Int]` that produces positive Ints. i'm (essentially) using `arbitrary `suchThat' (\f -> all (\x -> f x > x) xs)', where `xs :: [a]`. this generator still has trouble producing this function for list lengths over 10 or so. i don't know if making this its own newtype would help in any way, but `xs` depends on some other generators. i tried to make a separate newtype for this |
| 10:41:30 | <desophos> | function but i couldn't figure out where to get my `xs` for the predicate. i would appreciate any advice, and sorry for the wall of text! :) |
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| 10:44:17 | <desophos> | oh yeah, and i'm passing that generator to `map` to make it an `[a] -> [Int]`. the `a -> Int` generator works much better than my previous `[a] -> [Int]` generator |
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| 10:50:11 | <[exa]> | desophos: btw is that some generic thing or do you have a specific function that you're testing? |
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| 10:50:44 | <desophos> | i am testing specific functions, yes |
| 10:50:51 | <[exa]> | desophos: (many integer sequences/sets can be generated/enumerated efficiently) |
| 10:51:17 | <desophos> | i have a newtype that generates the arguments to said function, because they're all closely related |
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| 10:53:12 | <desophos> | right, i mean the function could just be (\xs -> take (length xs) $ iterate (+1) 1) or whatever |
| 10:53:43 | <tomsmeding> | desophos: as written, assuming that 'f x > x' has change 0 <= p <= 1 of happening, the probability that an arbitrary value will satisfy your suchThat is p^length |
| 10:54:04 | <tomsmeding> | for p that is not 0.99, that will decrease quickly :p |
| 10:54:43 | <tomsmeding> | if you can write a (sort-of) uniform generator for values x such that f x > x, then build the list using that |
| 10:54:50 | <tomsmeding> | (with a newtype wrapper I guess) |
| 10:54:51 | <desophos> | hmmm, well `x` is always 0 (in this example; it's a bit more complicated in my code) |
| 10:55:54 | <desophos> | i actually have no idea what p would be for this |
| 10:56:28 | <tomsmeding> | doesn't really matter what p is exactly, but since you say that "it has trouble producing this functions for list lengths over 10 or so", I'm guessing it's not too high :p |
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| 10:56:41 | <desophos> | apparently so |
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| 10:56:51 | <desophos> | how would i go about writing that generator? |
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| 10:57:49 | <tomsmeding> | well one possibility would be to create a newtype, DesophosElement, for the elements of the list |
| 10:58:04 | <tomsmeding> | and give it an arbitrary instance that says 'arbitrary `suchThat` (\x -> f x > x)' |
| 10:58:16 | <tomsmeding> | then generate a list of those things, and unwrap the newtypes in the elements |
| 10:58:29 | <tomsmeding> | that should give the same distribution because of your use of 'all' |
| 10:59:10 | <tomsmeding> | (if you're custom-generating this list anyway, you can probably do away with that DesophosElement) |
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| 11:00:17 | <desophos> | hmm, how is that different from what i'm doing now? if i would use `f` in the predicate anyway? |
| 11:01:34 | <tomsmeding> | the difference is that in your version, you generate a list, check the property for each element, (probably) observe that it fails for at least one element, throw the list away and generate a new one, repeat |
| 11:01:46 | <desophos> | oh i see |
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| 11:01:55 | <tomsmeding> | whereas in my version, you repeat generating one particular element a couple of times, but you throw away much less work |
| 11:02:09 | <desophos> | instead of generating the elements individually based on whether they satisfy the function predicate |
| 11:02:13 | <tomsmeding> | and because your list property was just an 'all', it makes no difference in output |
| 11:02:17 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
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| 11:02:24 | <desophos> | that makes a lot of sense |
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| 11:02:52 | <tomsmeding> | you might hope that quickcheck sees these kinds of redundancies and optimises them away, but lambdas are too black-box for that :p |
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| 11:03:25 | <desophos> | i actually already have the list and i'm trying to generate the function |
| 11:03:29 | <tomsmeding> | lol |
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| 11:03:44 | <tomsmeding> | that... may change the whole story :p |
| 11:03:49 | <desophos> | haha :D |
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| 11:04:05 | <tomsmeding> | because then my simplification doesn't apply at all |
| 11:04:57 | <tomsmeding> | you're trying to generate a function that satisfies a number of inequalities? |
| 11:05:02 | <desophos> | yes |
| 11:05:07 | <desophos> | i generate a list of record types and then use that list in the predicate to generate an appropriate function |
| 11:05:15 | <tomsmeding> | use an LP-solver? :p |
| 11:05:47 | <tomsmeding> | you use that list to _generate_ or to _validate_ a function? |
| 11:06:07 | <desophos> | to validate it, my mistake |
| 11:06:23 | <tomsmeding> | right, then you can't really simplify that in general |
| 11:07:06 | <tomsmeding> | except if, with knowledge about how exactly your function parameters are structured, you can discard some of the search space given some of those record values |
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| 11:07:24 | <tomsmeding> | but that heavily depends on what exactly you're generating |
| 11:07:24 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 11:07:25 | <desophos> | my logic is `all (f (r1 x) > (r2 x)) xs` where x is a record type with fields `r1 :: a` and `r2 :: Int`, and `f :: (a -> Int)` |
| 11:08:00 | <tomsmeding> | what kinds of functions can 'f' be? |
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| 11:08:14 | <desophos> | and xs is a list of these records that has been generated previously in this arbitrary implementation |
| 11:08:33 | <tomsmeding> | you're generating constraints together with functions that satisfy them? |
| 11:08:51 | <desophos> | kind of, yes |
| 11:08:54 | <tomsmeding> | how about generating a function first and then generating some constraints that the function satisfies? |
| 11:09:10 | <tomsmeding> | that second step should be easier |
| 11:09:47 | <tomsmeding> | (generate a value for 'r1', then generate the value for 'r2' in the range [0 .. f1 (r1 x) - 1] or something) |
| 11:09:49 | <desophos> | well, the issue that led to this in the first place is that this [Int] produced by `f` is the set of weights passed to `frequency`, so they must be positive and not all the same |
| 11:10:13 | <desophos> | that's the only constraint i'm trying to get working |
| 11:10:22 | <tomsmeding> | ah I see |
| 11:10:32 | <tomsmeding> | why must they not all be the same? |
| 11:10:38 | <desophos> | requirement of frequency i believe |
| 11:10:44 | <desophos> | i might be wrong on that? |
| 11:11:04 | <desophos> | yep i'm wrong, they just can't all be 0 |
| 11:11:10 | <tomsmeding> | the frequencies must certainly be non-negative, but all-equal would just result in a uniform distribution, right? |
| 11:11:15 | <desophos> | yep |
| 11:11:20 | <tomsmeding> | all-zero is problematic too I guess |
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| 11:12:14 | <tomsmeding> | so just to be clear: you're generating a list of 'a' values, as well as a function f :: a -> Int, and want the results of calling 'f' on those 'a' values to be valid weights for 'frequency' |
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| 11:13:02 | <desophos> | pretty much; the 'a' values are actually record fields |
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| 11:13:08 | <tomsmeding> | still kind of depends on what functions f can be |
| 11:13:14 | <tomsmeding> | sure |
| 11:13:39 | <desophos> | f can be any function really, it doesn't matter as long as it produces valid frequency weights |
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| 11:14:39 | <tomsmeding> | how are you generating it now? |
| 11:14:47 | <tomsmeding> | using Test.QuickCheck.Function, or differently? |
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| 11:15:27 | <desophos> | using `arbitrary` in a newtype Arbitrary instance |
| 11:15:51 | <desophos> | the constraints are the part that's giving me trouble |
| 11:16:16 | <tomsmeding> | right so your 'a' implements CoArbitrary |
| 11:16:20 | <desophos> | yes |
| 11:16:23 | <tomsmeding> | I missed that instance, okay |
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| 11:16:48 | <tomsmeding> | I'm asking because one way to optimise the process is to let the constraints inform the generation of 'f' :p |
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| 11:17:00 | <tomsmeding> | but then you'd need to custom-write that |
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| 11:17:14 | <desophos> | in a Gen instance? |
| 11:17:20 | <tomsmeding> | yeah |
| 11:18:44 | <tomsmeding> | desophos: can't you generate an 'f' of type a -> NonNegative Int |
| 11:18:56 | <tomsmeding> | and then use getNonNegative . f |
| 11:19:04 | ← | vilpan parts (~0@212.117.1.172) () |
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| 11:19:36 | <tomsmeding> | you still need to check that the outputs are not all-zero, but that should have a negligible probability instead of 1 - 0.5^length |
| 11:19:43 | <desophos> | hmm... that's a good idea |
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| 11:19:59 | <desophos> | i feel like i should have tried that earlier lol |
| 11:20:07 | <tomsmeding> | if you don't want zero weights either, use Positive instead of NonNegative :p |
| 11:20:19 | <tomsmeding> | took me a while to think of it too |
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| 11:23:17 | <desophos> | it worked, thank you! good discussion about generating functions too :) |
| 11:24:08 | <tomsmeding> | nice! :) |
| 11:24:10 | <tomsmeding> | good luck! |
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| 11:24:33 | <desophos> | thanks! |
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| 13:50:40 | <Guest_36> | b |
| 13:50:58 | <mouseghost> | c |
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| 13:51:27 | <Guest_36> | Hi I just downloaded Haskell on terminal, can someone tell me how I can start it please? |
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| 13:51:40 | <Guest_36> | mouse ghost lol |
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| 13:52:14 | <mouseghost> | ghci gives you repl |
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| 13:53:30 | <Guest_36> | sorry what is repl |
| 13:53:43 | <hc> | read, evaluate, print, loop |
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| 13:54:10 | <Guest_36> | ok thanks |
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| 13:54:34 | <hpc> | the more boring word for it is "interactive interpreter" ;) |
| 13:54:46 | <hc> | i was about to say, interactive compiler ;p |
| 13:55:12 | <Guest_36> | I'm not sure where I can find it |
| 13:55:25 | <Guest_36> | find haskel |
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| 13:58:36 | <geekosaur> | I wonder if they're looking for an IDE |
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| 14:10:20 | <remby> | for those that work on ghc, which platform do you use for dev? |
| 14:10:31 | <maralorn> | When I have a = "⏳" I get length a = 1, but my terminal prints a with a width of two monospace symbols. What library gives me a possibility to get the "displayLength" or something of a string? |
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| 14:11:14 | <merijn> | remby: probably 80-90% linux |
| 14:13:00 | <swarmcollective> | remby, I use both Windows + Haskell Docker Container as well as linux directly. |
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| 14:15:45 | <maralorn> | The best solution I can think of right now is to use ansi-terminal to print the symbol query the new cursor position and delete the symbol. But that sounds super annoying. |
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| 14:16:14 | <geekosaur> | you are approaching hell |
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| 14:16:36 | <geekosaur> | display width is not a defined attribute and can depend on both the font and the terminal emulator |
| 14:16:46 | <merijn> | There's a C function for that |
| 14:17:23 | <merijn> | geekosaur: For fixed-width there is a display width |
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| 14:18:06 | <merijn> | Probably still won't work right for emojis, but hey |
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| 14:23:27 | <cantoro> | Hello |
| 14:23:58 | <edwardk> | i just realized i can write a kind-polymorphic version of basically any typeclass. |
| 14:24:00 | <edwardk> | https://github.com/ekmett/unlifted/blob/poly/poly.hs |
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| 14:25:53 | <edwardk> | basically the issue with writing polykinded instances, is that defaults can't work, right? because levity polymorphism doesn't allow things in negative position to be levity polymorphic |
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| 14:26:43 | <edwardk> | but the functions in the dictionary themselves are in kind Type. so if what i do is make the defaults live in another typeclass off the RuntimeRep, i can magically have everything. |
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| 14:27:11 | <edwardk> | this means i can overload numeric literals to work on other kinds, like Int# and they just work |
| 14:27:14 | <edwardk> | +, -, etc. |
| 14:27:28 | <edwardk> | before i was trying to do this with a one-off class per kind |
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| 14:28:03 | <edwardk> | now i could import just the unlifted machinery, turn on rebindable syntax and use it for all kinds including lifted stuff at the same time! |
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| 14:28:49 | <edwardk> | i'd still probably need the backpack machinery to make the data types for each kind for unlifted maybes, etc. |
| 14:29:06 | <edwardk> | but the instances seem like they can mostly just work |
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| 14:32:06 | <edwardk> | the unlifted classes need to return slightly different types based off the kind, but its not so bad, really. |
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| 14:32:44 | <edwardk> | mostly for Enum/IsList, some of the integral stuff needing to give back unboxed tuples, etc. |
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| 14:33:06 | <edwardk> | going to sleep now |
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| 14:36:14 | <cantoro> | :q |
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| 14:45:48 | <kuribas> | Is there a good fast xml generator? I tried xmlgen, which is decent, but a bit too polymorphic for my taste. |
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| 14:46:22 | <merijn> | Is there a good XML generator at all? :p |
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| 14:46:44 | <kuribas> | I hope... |
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| 14:57:02 | <geekosaur> | aren't "good" and "xml" antiphonic? |
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| 14:58:15 | <NieDzejkob> | is it possible to define a bidirectional pattern synonym, but only export the destructuring direction outside of the current module? |
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| 14:59:50 | <merijn> | NieDzejkob: Why not just have two different pattern synonyms for that? |
| 15:00:23 | <NieDzejkob> | because I don't want to make up two names/operators |
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| 15:07:59 | <kuribas> | Geekingfrog: the generator must be good, xml cannot be fixed anymore :) |
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| 15:38:40 | <mirrorbird> | i just installed ghc/cabal with ghcup, but when i try to run ghc or ghci i get "ghc: can't find a package database at /home/mirrorbird/.cabal/store..." (there's no store dir) |
| 15:39:07 | <merijn> | do you have a .ghc.environment.X file in your working dir? |
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| 15:39:41 | <mirrorbird> | no |
| 15:39:44 | <merijn> | hmm |
| 15:39:58 | <mirrorbird> | i did have a system install of ghc and cabal before (debian package) but i removed it |
| 15:40:09 | <merijn> | pastebin the full error? |
| 15:40:11 | <merijn> | @where paste |
| 15:40:11 | <lambdabot> | Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com |
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| 15:40:58 | <mirrorbird> | merijn, https://paste.tomsmeding.com/zh7CtVAc |
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| 15:41:51 | <merijn> | mirrorbird: hmm, possibly left over junk from the debian package, what if you nuke ~/.cabal/ ? |
| 15:42:08 | <mirrorbird> | i think i did before... |
| 15:42:21 | <mirrorbird> | yeah, i did ls -la, it's all created just now |
| 15:42:39 | <merijn> | mirrorbird: Did you nuke ~/.ghc too? |
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| 15:43:00 | <mirrorbird> | yeah |
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| 15:43:47 | <merijn> | "Loaded package environment from /home/mirrorbird/.ghc/x86_64-linux-8.10.4/environments/default" <- this is telling it to look for a package database in the store dir, which doesn't exist, so I wonder what set it up to look there |
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| 15:44:24 | <mirrorbird> | presumably ghcup |
| 15:44:33 | <mirrorbird> | hmm |
| 15:44:38 | <merijn> | ghcup doesn't touch ~/.ghc, afaik? |
| 15:44:56 | <merijn> | I don't seem to have anything recent in my ~/.ghc besides ghci history |
| 15:45:08 | <mirrorbird> | so... how does it download new ghc versions? |
| 15:45:20 | <mirrorbird> | because it downloaded 8.10.4 for me |
| 15:45:48 | <merijn> | Pretty sure ghcup uses sub directories of .ghcup to put GHC versions and then only controls symlinks to select one |
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| 15:46:04 | <mirrorbird> | hmmm |
| 15:46:11 | <maerwald> | yes |
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| 15:46:30 | <mirrorbird> | so where is this ~/.ghc coming from anyway? |
| 15:46:36 | <mirrorbird> | can i remove it? it only has the environment config in it |
| 15:47:06 | <merijn> | mirrorbird: Try nuking both ~/.ghc and ~/.cabal again and then running ghci again |
| 15:47:09 | <mirrorbird> | i did. it works |
| 15:47:17 | <mirrorbird> | no idea why it had that config file and nothing else |
| 15:47:21 | <mirrorbird> | ty |
| 15:47:32 | <merijn> | Like I said, I suspect leftover from debian package |
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| 15:48:36 | <mirrorbird> | ok |
| 15:49:02 | <merijn> | mirrorbird: The default environment is used when you use "cabal install --lib" iirc |
| 15:49:25 | <mirrorbird> | it tells me to use --lib when i try to install libs |
| 15:50:24 | <merijn> | mirrorbird: Yeah, don't install libs :p |
| 15:50:51 | <merijn> | (that's an oversimplification of the situation, but a decent simple heuristic) |
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| 15:51:34 | <merijn> | mirrorbird: That tries to behave like a "global" install, but "global" instance are just an incredibly broken idea that's best avoided |
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| 15:54:15 | <mirrorbird> | so... what should i do |
| 15:55:03 | <merijn> | mirrorbird: The best workflow is to use a .cabal file to handle installs for libraries you use |
| 15:55:09 | <mirrorbird> | ah |
| 15:55:12 | <mirrorbird> | so it's installed per project? |
| 15:55:25 | <merijn> | mirrorbird: Sorta, not quite |
| 15:55:29 | <mirrorbird> | i think stack does this stuff but it also installs GHC per-project. i don't have that kinda disk space |
| 15:55:41 | <mirrorbird> | it's installed globally but defined per project with a version |
| 15:55:42 | <mirrorbird> | ? |
| 15:55:42 | <shad0w_> | hi all. i am having troubles installing haskell on aarch64 |
| 15:56:02 | <shad0w_> | i did manage to install ghc manually |
| 15:56:05 | <merijn> | mirrorbird: Basically, every package is tagged with a hash of it's version, config, transitive dependencies, etc. and that's installed in the global store (the ~/.cabal/store directory) |
| 15:56:10 | <mirrorbird> | shad0w_, upgrade to Agda |
| 15:56:15 | <shad0w_> | but i am at the end of my wits on cabal |
| 15:56:30 | <merijn> | mirrorbird: Which means you can have unboundedly many different (potentially conflicting) installs of the same package |
| 15:56:33 | <shad0w_> | cabal-install has no aarch64 binaries |
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| 15:56:56 | <shad0w_> | building from source is giving me all sorts of weird stuff lol |
| 15:56:58 | <merijn> | mirrorbird: cabal then selectively makes coherent subsets of the store available to projects you have |
| 15:57:04 | <mirrorbird> | merijn, yeah sounds gooder |
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| 15:57:28 | <merijn> | mirrorbird: So it behaves *as if* the dependencies are installed per project, except they can still be shared IFF they're exactly the same between projects |
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| 15:57:49 | <shad0w_> | mirrorbird: agda? i barelly started heads and tails (no pun) of haskell |
| 15:58:04 | <shad0w_> | started understanding* |
| 15:58:04 | <mirrorbird> | haskell is used in industry, therefore it is no longer god tier |
| 15:58:13 | <mirrorbird> | if you want god tier you need agda or something more obscure |
| 15:58:34 | <shad0w_> | not sure if you're trolling ? |
| 15:58:38 | <mirrorbird> | yeah |
| 15:58:58 | <merijn> | mirrorbird: Some people dislike having a cabal file for even trivial 1 module program/projects, but personally I think that's a fairly trivial price to pay |
| 15:59:31 | <mirrorbird> | well now i seem to have cabal globally installed |
| 15:59:36 | <mirrorbird> | sorry, parsec |
| 15:59:38 | <mirrorbird> | for now |
| 15:59:42 | <shad0w_> | i'd pay that price happily |
| 15:59:43 | <mirrorbird> | well at least ghc is working again.. |
| 15:59:52 | <shad0w_> | if only i could get cabal to actually install |
| 15:59:56 | <mirrorbird> | shad0w_, which method did you use? |
| 16:00:05 | <mirrorbird> | pacman, ghcup or haskell platform? |
| 16:00:06 | <merijn> | mirrorbird: And if you put "write-ghc-environment-files: always" in ~/.cabal/config then cabal will create .ghc.environment file in your project dirs which ghci will pick up so that "ghci" in a project directory will automatically get you access to the dependencies |
| 16:00:15 | <shad0w_> | ghcup flat out refuses to work |
| 16:00:15 | <mirrorbird> | ah |
| 16:00:31 | <shad0w_> | "unknown arch aarch64" |
| 16:00:50 | <merijn> | mirrorbird: parsec and ~35 other packages are always installed globally because they're dependencies of GHC and/or Cabal |
| 16:01:09 | <shad0w_> | i then went to the ghc downloads and grabbed the 8.10.4 aarch tar file from there and manually installed it from there |
| 16:01:12 | <mirrorbird> | merijn, ah. it didn't work on my system install ._. |
| 16:01:21 | <mirrorbird> | so i tried cabal install parsec, and it didn't work. hence ghcup and all this |
| 16:03:06 | <mirrorbird> | so. i am using parsec for the first time. am i supposed to understand exactly what the Parser monad is doing behind the scenes? like, typically, when introduced to some monad |
| 16:03:45 | <mirrorbird> | the little book i'm following says it's a "way to structure computations", so i can just treat it like an interface |
| 16:04:22 | <merijn> | mirrorbird: I don't think you have to, some basic understanding of a simple (inefficient) parser combinator can help, but the exact details of how Parsec is implemented isn't that important |
| 16:04:34 | <c_wraith> | It's keeping track of the input and how much of it has been used in the background. that's really all you need to know. |
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| 16:05:22 | <merijn> | mirrorbird: You can try reimplementing a simple (and super inefficient!) parser combinator yourself fairly easily |
| 16:05:44 | <merijn> | mirrorbird: "newtype Parser a = MkParser (String -> Maybe (a, String))" |
| 16:06:43 | <merijn> | parseChar :: Parser Char; parseChar = MkParser (\s -> case s of [] -> Nothing; (c:cs) -> Just (c, cs)" and continue building more complicated things from there :p |
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| 16:07:19 | <mirrorbird> | MkParser is from parsec? |
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| 16:07:27 | <merijn> | mirrorbird: No, that's something I invented |
| 16:07:30 | <mirrorbird> | ah |
| 16:07:47 | <merijn> | mirrorbird: That example is *wildly* inefficient, but it's a good mental picture of what's going |
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| 16:08:11 | <merijn> | mirrorbird: "real" parser combinator libraries have a more complicated approach to handle back tracking, errors, etc. more efficiently |
| 16:08:34 | <merijn> | mirrorbird: But you *can* definitely built an entire thing based on my example |
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| 16:10:12 | <shad0w_> | ugh. HTTP package upperbound |
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| 16:21:17 | <ph88> | hey guys. I have a data type similar to data MyContainer = MyValue a | MyMoreValue (MyContainer a) a i would like to use it together with a function like f (MyValue _) = True; f _ = False not directly using this function, but using a helper function like foldl' that goes through the recursive type until the end or until a condition is met. Does anyone know such a helper function ? |
| 16:21:37 | <ph88> | that should be data MyContainer a = ... by the way |
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| 16:33:33 | <Guest_6> | how to uninstall older ghc verions? |
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| 16:35:39 | <merijn> | Guest_6: How did you install them? |
| 16:36:11 | <Guest_6> | well I had installed the haskell platform. |
| 16:36:24 | <merijn> | Haskell platform should have an uninstaller, iirc |
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| 16:42:04 | <Guest_6> | i dont think it does. I use ubuntu. |
| 16:43:09 | <monochrom> | Answers are no more detailed than questions. |
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| 16:45:31 | <Guest_6> | ?? I was having trouble with cabal versions. someone recommended I use ghcup. so I installed ghcup and ghcup installed ghc and cabal versions I wanted. but system still referring to old versions. |
| 16:45:31 | <lambdabot> | I was having trouble with cabal versions. someone recommended I use ghcup. so I installed ghcup and ghcup installed ghc and cabal versions I wanted. but system still referring to old versions. |
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| 16:46:02 | <maerwald> | ?? lol |
| 16:46:02 | <lambdabot> | lol |
| 16:46:18 | <merijn> | Interesting |
| 16:46:22 | <monochrom> | What steps did you do to install the old version? For example was it "apt-get"? What was it? |
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| 16:47:13 | <Guest_6> | Yes |
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| 16:47:31 | <monochrom> | So use "apt-get remove" or something |
| 16:47:32 | <Guest_6> | "sudo apt-get install haskell-platform" |
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| 16:50:46 | <aldum> | you likely need to add the ghcup bindir to your PATH and set the version you want with ghcup |
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| 16:52:18 | <monochrom> | ghcup would have reminded you of that. |
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| 16:53:30 | <monochrom> | The author painstakingly coded up an elaborate algorithm to auto-detect which OS you're on and give tailor-made instructions. |
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| 16:53:46 | <monochrom> | I don't want to see all that work go down the drain. |
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| 16:55:09 | <Guest_6> | Well at the end of ghcup installation it said: If you want ghcup to automatically add the required PATH variable to "../.bashrc"answer with YES, otherwise with NO and press ENTER. I said YES and that was all. |
| 16:55:33 | <c_wraith> | I think ghcup has trouble with macs when your shell is bash but the system default is zsh |
| 16:56:07 | <merijn> | tbh, I think the value of ghcup is marginal on macOS anyway |
| 16:56:20 | <merijn> | On linux it can be hard to figure out which GHC bindist to get |
| 16:56:28 | <merijn> | There is only one macOS bindist :p |
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| 16:56:42 | <monochrom> | What macOS? I thought I heard "ubuntu". |
| 16:56:47 | <Guest_6> | I am not using mac, lol. |
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| 16:57:07 | <c_wraith> | I was mostly pointing out that there are cases where ghcup updates the wrong config |
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| 16:57:35 | <maerwald> | merijn: it's more popular on mac than on linux |
| 16:57:38 | <c_wraith> | however, it's also possible that it updated the right config and you just need to start a new shell so that it sees the changes |
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| 16:58:05 | <merijn> | maerwald: Well, in my defense I don't say anything about popularity ;) |
| 16:58:21 | <maerwald> | merijn: yeah, usefulness is subjective I guess |
| 16:58:33 | <c_wraith> | unrelated.. how long until there are two ghc bindists on mac? |
| 16:58:56 | <merijn> | c_wraith: 9.2 is going to be the first with a native build, iirc |
| 16:59:04 | <c_wraith> | ok, so not that long. |
| 16:59:12 | <merijn> | c_wraith: codegen won't be finished before then |
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| 16:59:19 | <monochrom> | . o O ( McAfee Antivrius has only marginal value on Windows but very popular there... ) |
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| 16:59:39 | <ephemient> | a single bindist with fat binaries would be possible, probably? |
| 16:59:49 | <Guest_6> | c_wraith yes, that was it. Thank you! |
| 16:59:54 | <sclv> | what did you just call my binaries??? |
| 17:00:08 | <ephemient> | apt-get remove haskell-platform; apt-get autoremove |
| 17:00:10 | <merijn> | ephemient: Yeah, but as someone who likes fat binaries that seems excessive :) |
| 17:00:23 | <c_wraith> | Guest_6: yeah, shells only read those config files at startup, unless you tell them otherwise. starting a new one is the cleanest way to check for that |
| 17:01:02 | <merijn> | ephemient: I mean, GHC is already fairly sizable, and I don't think doubling that size is that ideal :) |
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| 17:01:24 | <akhov> | Hi. I'm looking to play music of various formats (mp3, aac, flac, etc.) from haskell. I'm not familiar with sound libraries for haskell. I'm currently trying with sdl2-mixer, which seems to work okay, but I'd like to hear if there are other good library options for this task. Any ideas? |
| 17:01:50 | <sclv> | fat binary CURLs you make the rockin world go round |
| 17:02:36 | <ephemient> | merijn: yeah I don't think it is a good idea either, just that it's possible :) |
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| 17:16:53 | <ephemient> | sclv: if SDL works for you then great, I don't think any of the alternatives are up to date |
| 17:16:53 | <monochrom> | do you mean akhov? |
| 17:16:53 | <ephemient> | oops, I did mean akhov |
| 17:16:53 | <ephemient> | I remember using the Xine bindings in the past, but both Xine and the bindings are pretty outdated by now |
| 17:16:53 | <polyphem> | akhov: hsndfile letsyou load all kinds of files doesnt play though |
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| 17:16:54 | <sclv> | lots on this page is probably pretty out of date but it does have pointers to various things |
| 17:16:54 | <sclv> | https://wiki.haskell.org/Applications_and_libraries/Music_and_sound |
| 17:16:54 | <ephemient> | it probably wouldn't be hard to write your own bindings to libao for playback while using hsndfile for decoding |
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| 17:16:54 | <ephemient> | (although I don't see any benefit to that over sdl) |
| 17:16:54 | <polyphem> | akhov: ... you have access to the sample data , then you can choose your playing backend like jack/pulse , or windows/macos |
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| 17:16:55 | <ephemient> | libao unifies the possible backends on different platforms with a single API. but so does sdl |
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| 17:16:56 | <geekosaur> | sdl carries a bunch of other unnecessary-for-this stuff, though, since its primary purpose is graphics and the sound support is mostly to ensure sound is synchronized with the graphics |
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| 17:16:57 | <ephemient> | it's just nice that sdl_mixer is is all in one, you can just give audio files to it directly |
| 17:16:57 | <ephemient> | that's what I used to use Xine for, but I don't recommend that this decade |
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| 17:21:12 | <akhov> | Thanks, I'll need to look into some of these options. |
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| 17:21:31 | <ph88> | anyone know what is new in lens 5 ? |
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| 17:22:25 | <merijn> | hmm, I wish that linewrapping function arguments wasn't so awkward :\ |
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| 17:23:39 | <akhov> | I don't know if sdl2-mixer can support all the formats needed (common music formats), could it maybe be combined with hsndfile for this? |
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| 17:26:38 | <tomsmeding> | maralorn: the C function is wcwidth |
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| 17:27:04 | <tomsmeding> | emoji width related problems often boil down to libc having an outdated unicode table, meaning that wcwidth fails |
| 17:27:06 | <PacoV> | Hi there. |
| 17:27:23 | <tomsmeding> | @hackage wcwidth |
| 17:27:23 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/wcwidth |
| 17:27:26 | <tomsmeding> | seems to exist? |
| 17:27:36 | <PacoV> | Do you guys know any good resource about building a windows binary from my linux box? |
| 17:27:59 | <PacoV> | I made a soft for my GF's work and it works fine in gitlab CI. |
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| 17:28:30 | <PacoV> | But I'd like to compile a native executable for her not to wait multiples minutes at every push. |
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| 17:28:55 | <PacoV> | I've seen stuff about cross compiling ghc. |
| 17:29:05 | <PacoV> | But that's not what I'm looking for. |
| 17:29:08 | <geekosaur> | I think the only reliable way to do it is to run a Windows instance in a VM; cross-compiling is limited |
| 17:29:55 | <PacoV> | That's my only viable approach at the moment indeed. |
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| 17:47:29 | <PacoV> | Well, virtualbox, here I come. |
| 17:47:33 | <PacoV> | Thanks geekosaur . |
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| 17:51:01 | <ph88> | when i do deriving (Data) i get error Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Data’ i have on top of source file {-# LANGUAGE DeriveDataTypeable #-} why does this not work ? |
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| 17:51:52 | <koz_> | ph88: You need to import Data.Data (Data). |
| 17:52:23 | <koz_> | (something something named it thrice) |
| 17:52:46 | <ph88> | thanks koz_ i will try this ... strange that this guide here doesn't mention any imports https://chrisdone.com/posts/data-typeable/ |
| 17:53:22 | <koz_> | This guide is ancient. |
| 17:53:28 | <koz_> | It's using old Typeable as well. |
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| 17:57:38 | <monochrom> | Not strange, if you s/guide/blog/ |
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| 17:59:55 | <monochrom> | Bloggers blog for their excitement and echo chamber. |
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| 18:06:24 | <merijn> | monochrom: As always, you get what you pay for ;) |
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| 18:16:38 | <ph88> | still old blog post is the go to reference for me :/ |
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| 18:58:15 | justsomeguy | makes a mental note to make all his examples reproducable if he ever writes something in a blog. |
| 18:58:42 | <justsomeguy> | (...and also to include version numbers, dates, etc in the written content) |
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| 19:08:06 | <hololeap> | most of the haskell blogs i've seen write their pages so that they also function as lhs files, so you can (hopefully) compile the blog post with GHC |
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| 19:11:08 | <mirrorbird> | LHS is really cool |
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| 19:15:56 | <hololeap> | yeah it's kind of crazy how it embeds so easily into html and markdown without any extra work |
| 19:16:18 | <hololeap> | well, i've never tried it with html, personally, so i could be wrong there |
| 19:19:17 | <tomsmeding> | These two functions map' and map'2 are equivalent: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/5qMeYJ52 |
| 19:19:50 | <tomsmeding> | both seem too complex to me, somehow; does this already exist? Can it be written more simply? |
| 19:20:22 | <tomsmeding> | also map'2 feels less efficient to me with the reverse, but I might be wrong about that |
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| 19:22:44 | <hololeap> | % :t traverse @[] @((,) _) |
| 19:22:46 | <yahb> | hololeap: Monoid w => (a -> (w, b)) -> [a] -> (w, [b]) |
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| 19:23:25 | <tomsmeding> | it's traverse! |
| 19:23:29 | <hololeap> | almost |
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| 19:23:43 | <tomsmeding> | but yeah my 's' is not a Monoid unfortunately |
| 19:23:56 | <lyxia> | it's in State, not (,) |
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| 19:24:32 | <lyxia> | :t mapAccumL |
| 19:24:33 | <hololeap> | % :t traverse @[] @(State _) |
| 19:24:33 | <lambdabot> | Traversable t => (a -> b -> (a, c)) -> a -> t b -> (a, t c) |
| 19:24:33 | <yahb> | hololeap: (a -> State w b) -> [a] -> State w [b] |
| 19:24:50 | <tomsmeding> | lol both bots replied |
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| 19:24:59 | <lyxia> | hehe |
| 19:25:12 | <hololeap> | oh, right, mapAccumL |
| 19:25:14 | <tomsmeding> | but damn yes mapAccumL thanks lyxia |
| 19:25:31 | <tomsmeding> | @src mapAccumL |
| 19:25:32 | <lambdabot> | mapAccumL _ s [] = (s, []) |
| 19:25:32 | <lambdabot> | mapAccumL f s (x:xs) = (s'',y:ys) |
| 19:25:32 | <lambdabot> | where (s', y ) = f s x |
| 19:25:32 | <lambdabot> | (s'',ys) = mapAccumL f s' xs |
| 19:25:49 | <tomsmeding> | okay so my map', let's see base |
| 19:26:38 | <tomsmeding> | base uses traverse on an interesting monad |
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| 19:29:36 | <karasu1[m]> | quick question: I am in a "where block" (?), and often I do things like `(a , b) = f(foo, bar, quux)` to bind `a` and `b` in the scope of the function body before the "where block" (not sure if this makes sense). Instead of `(a, b) = f(foo, bar, quux)`, I want something like `(a, b) = Record {field1, field2, field3}` |
| 19:29:36 | <karasu1[m]> | And then a and b are bound to field1 and field3 |
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| 19:29:58 | <karasu1[m]> | Is this possible |
| 19:29:58 | <karasu1[m]> | ? |
| 19:30:00 | <tomsmeding> | karasu1[m]: Record { field1 = a, field3 = b} = ... |
| 19:30:10 | <tomsmeding> | and yes your terminology makes sense :) |
| 19:31:33 | <tomsmeding> | also note that with your `f(foo, bar, quux)`, you're calling `f` with a single argument (a 3-tuple) |
| 19:31:33 | <karasu1[m]> | What would be on the right side (the ...)? |
| 19:31:33 | <tomsmeding> | whatever value you want to get the fields from :p |
| 19:31:33 | <karasu1[m]> | Just anything that returns a Record right? |
| 19:31:33 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 19:31:33 | <karasu1[m]> | oh yeah, I thought I was in python again.. thanks |
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| 19:31:33 | <tomsmeding> | that syntax is a valid pattern, which means you can use it wherever you need a pattern, like in a function argument |
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| 19:31:33 | <hololeap> | i didn't know about that usage |
| 19:31:33 | <tomsmeding> | `foo (Record {field1 = a}) = a` is a valid function definition |
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| 19:32:39 | <karasu1[m]> | wow, TIL |
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| 19:33:15 | <tomsmeding> | wait till you discover view patterns :p |
| 19:33:17 | <geekosaur> | the parentheses are even optional there (record update syntax binds tighter than anything else) |
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| 19:33:39 | <tomsmeding> | but probably unwise to try using view patterns before you have a feel of the language |
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| 19:34:27 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur: would you omit them? I'm kind of torn between not using more parentheses than necessary, and clarity |
| 19:34:41 | <tomsmeding> | (also I forgot here) |
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| 19:34:49 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: I omit them *and* the space after constructor |
| 19:34:58 | <geekosaur> | depends on context, I think. it can be confusing with multiple parameters |
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| 19:35:06 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: foo Record{field1 = a} |
| 19:35:07 | <tomsmeding> | merijn: that works I guess |
| 19:35:21 | <geekosaur> | but if you're using a record as a parameter, you don't really need multiple parameters anyway |
| 19:36:14 | <merijn> | Also, NamedFieldPuns :p |
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| 19:36:50 | <merijn> | https://github.com/merijn/Belewitte/blob/master/benchmark-analysis/src/Query/Train.hs#L42-L58 |
| 19:36:50 | <merijn> | Yo, dawg! |
| 19:36:50 | <tomsmeding> | I hate shadowing |
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| 19:37:06 | <merijn> | We heard you like NamedFieldPuns, so put NamedFieldPuns in your NamedFieldPuns! |
| 19:37:21 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: Easily solved by -XNoFieldSelectors in 9.2! |
| 19:38:04 | <hololeap> | or don't use records, just use lenses and tuples for everything |
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| 19:38:19 | <tomsmeding> | fair point, though that makes accessing fields awkward; RecordDotSyntax aims to solve that, but isn't perfect either |
| 19:38:37 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: How does that make accessing awkward if you use NamedFieldPuns? |
| 19:38:50 | <tomsmeding> | it doesn't, NoFieldSelectors does |
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| 19:39:22 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: No, "how does NoFieldSelectors make it more awkward if you use NamedFieldPuns?" |
| 19:39:34 | <tomsmeding> | neither manually writing getters, nor writing case expressions everywhere, is a good solution |
| 19:39:55 | <merijn> | hololeap: The more I introduce custom datatypes the more I think "just using tuples" is a terrible idea |
| 19:40:00 | <tomsmeding> | I was talking about NoFieldSelectors in general |
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| 19:40:13 | <hololeap> | merijn: yeah, it was a joke |
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| 19:40:21 | <tomsmeding> | NoFieldSelectors makes NamedFieldPuns okay, but NoFieldSelectors itself has downsides imo :p |
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| 19:40:36 | <merijn> | hololeap: Your joke is not Poe's Law proof >.> |
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| 19:40:55 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: NoFieldSelectors also makes sumtype records ok! |
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| 19:41:12 | <tomsmeding> | I know! I read about it again today |
| 19:41:25 | <tomsmeding> | a thing having advantages does not mean it doesn't have disadvantages :p |
| 19:41:32 | dcoutts | is now known as dcoutts__ |
| 19:41:52 | dcoutts_ | is now known as dcoutts |
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| 19:42:09 | tomsmeding | switched from non-contracted style ("does not") to contracted style ("doesn't") over the course of five word |
| 19:42:11 | <tomsmeding> | s |
| 19:43:12 | geekosaur | read it as emphasis (and as idiom) |
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| 19:43:40 | tomsmeding | 's brain probably intended it as emphasis, but then wondered at its own output |
| 19:44:13 | <merijn> | I stopped thinking about what I type :p |
| 19:44:33 | <merijn> | Often I end up typing a random homonym instead of what I intended anyway |
| 19:44:42 | <tomsmeding> | risky strategy :p |
| 19:44:46 | <justsomeguy> | Sometimes I use non-contracted phrses rather than contracted ones if I expect someone to read my sentence too quickly, or not carefully enough. |
| 19:45:00 | <justsomeguy> | Phrases, even. |
| 19:45:01 | <merijn> | two/to/to, their/they're/there, etc. |
| 19:45:13 | <geekosaur> | even there you did it :) |
| 19:45:16 | <tomsmeding> | :D |
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| 19:45:28 | <merijn> | dammit >.< |
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| 19:46:04 | <merijn> | And then some rando on reddit goes into a 4 page "helpful" explanation about different meaning...I know >.< |
| 19:46:13 | <justsomeguy> | words are hard |
| 19:46:28 | <merijn> | I blame English for having a phonology that has to much overlap... |
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| 19:47:27 | <ephemient> | I can fail to make sense in many languages |
| 19:47:47 | <ephemient> | I blame humanity |
| 19:47:56 | <tomsmeding> | merijn: friend of mine manages it in Dutch too |
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| 19:50:30 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: Really? How? >.> |
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| 19:57:57 | <tomsmeding> | merijn: can't find an instance now, I'll be sure to inform you next time it happens :P |
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| 20:23:56 | <frozenErebus> | for a beginner in functional paradigm...will learning it initially with haskell be better or javscript or it doesnt matter at all? |
| 20:25:29 | <[exa]> | frozenErebus: haskell learning curve will be steeper but you won't have to learn FP in a poor ad-hoc simulation thereof |
| 20:25:36 | <karasu1[m]> | Many recommend Scheme/Racket |
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| 20:25:53 | <[exa]> | yes, any kind of scheme is great |
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| 20:26:34 | <frozenErebus> | ohhok |
| 20:26:35 | <[exa]> | frozenErebus: https://ds26gte.github.io/tyscheme/ (I started with this) |
| 20:26:43 | <frozenErebus> | thank you |
| 20:27:28 | <frozenErebus> | ill get started with this...thanks again |
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| 20:48:13 | <ezzieyguywuf> | are flags case sensitive? |
| 20:48:24 | <ezzieyguywuf> | i.e. --flags=lib-werror vs --flags=lib-Werror |
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| 20:49:15 | <aldum> | oh bog, please don't learn it on javascript |
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| 20:53:23 | <geekosaur> | "Flag names are case insensitive." |
| 20:55:15 | <hyperisco> | there should have been a flag to choose case sensitivity |
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| 20:59:49 | <monochrom> | Should that flag be case sensitive or not? :) |
| 21:00:33 | <davean> | It should only care about the case of the first characture |
| 21:00:35 | <monochrom> | I choose case sensitivity for those who don't choose case sensitivity for themselves. |
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| 21:04:00 | <ski> | "Should that flag be case sensitive or not? :)" -- i was wondering the same thing. i think the answer might be that it should depend on whether it's currently turned on or not |
| 21:05:05 | <monochrom> | CasesensitivityInCasesensitivity |
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| 21:25:28 | <nut> | Can I makeClassy ''SomeType where SomeType has a type parameter such as SomeType a |
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| 21:26:16 | <nut> | data SomeType a = ... |
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| 21:30:59 | <karasu1[m]> | I'm a beginner, but I think the definition of Maybe is `Maybe a = Nothing | Just a`, so to me that looks good |
| 21:31:10 | <karasu1[m]> | data Maybe a = Nothing | Just a |
| 21:31:17 | <karasu1[m]> | forgot the data keyword before.. |
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| 21:33:50 | <hololeap> | % :t bisequence @(,) @[] |
| 21:33:51 | <yahb> | hololeap: ([a], [b]) -> [(a, b)] |
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| 21:34:42 | <hololeap> | so if bisequence is (essentially zip), what would be unzip? bidistribute? |
| 21:36:02 | <dolio> | That isn't zip, is it? |
| 21:36:19 | <dolio> | It's like a cartesian product. |
| 21:36:31 | <hololeap> | :t uncurry zip |
| 21:36:32 | <lambdabot> | ([a], [b]) -> [(a, b)] |
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| 21:40:51 | <karasu1[m]> | So head is a function, but it is partial, right? |
| 21:41:01 | <karasu1[m]> | I think this means that head is injective |
| 21:41:02 | <karasu1[m]> | And head is surjective |
| 21:41:04 | <karasu1[m]> | But it is not bijective.. |
| 21:41:14 | <karasu1[m]> | Since it can't map anything from the empty list |
| 21:41:25 | <dolio> | Definitely not injective. |
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| 21:41:58 | <dolio> | > (head [1], head [1,2]) |
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| 21:41:59 | <lambdabot> | (1,1) |
| 21:42:00 | <karasu1[m]> | Oh right, since multiple lists can have the same head |
| 21:42:04 | <karasu1[m]> | Right |
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| 21:42:57 | <karasu1[m]> | Right, if it actually were injective and surjective then that would imply bijectivity, so I just suck at math.. |
| 21:44:08 | <hololeap> | it is surjective, though, right? |
| 21:44:16 | <karasu1[m]> | But the word "partiality" has to do with the fact that it's not defined for some elements in the domain right? Probably not to do with injections or surjections? |
| 21:44:51 | <karasu1[m]> | I think it makes sense to call it surjective, since for every head, we can always have at least [head] in the domain that maps to it |
| 21:45:50 | <dolio> | Well, it could be that the setting for reasoning about partial functions isn't 'balanced'. But I'm not sure about that. |
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| 21:49:59 | <dolio> | Yeah, 'partial' has to do with being undefined on the domain. |
| 21:50:15 | <hololeap> | i think the best you can do is say that if a function is partial, it definitely isn't injective. but a function _not_ being partial doesn't mean that it _is_ injective |
| 21:50:57 | <dolio> | I'm not sure that being partial means not injective. |
| 21:51:16 | <karasu1[m]> | same, I think that would need proof |
| 21:51:18 | <dolio> | You'd have to think closely about what 'injective' means in that context, though. |
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| 21:53:13 | <hololeap> | oh, no i guess i'm wrong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_function |
| 21:54:01 | <karasu1[m]> | Well, from wikipedia it seems partial functions are quite related to injectivity and surjectivity LOL |
| 21:54:33 | <karasu1[m]> | I can never remember any definitions though..... |
| 21:54:43 | <karasu1[m]> | (had to look up injectivity and surjectivity today) |
| 21:55:06 | <hyperisco> | better to understand the concepts because the formalisms can vary |
| 21:55:42 | <karasu1[m]> | I'm not very smart.. |
| 21:56:04 | <karasu1[m]> | But I like to try. |
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| 21:58:15 | <hyperisco> | Injectivity: for every output there is only one input that produces it. Surjectivity: for all outputs in a given set of possible outputs, there is an input that produces that output |
| 21:58:54 | <hyperisco> | I just think of the pictures |
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| 22:00:11 | <monochrom> | My mnemonic was "sur -> surface -> sprayed all over the surface" so all of the co-domain is hit. |
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| 22:00:39 | <monochrom> | "injection" was self-explanatory to me for some reason. |
| 22:01:04 | <hyperisco> | if the problem is forgetting what term means what then I don't really have a fix for that :P |
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| 22:01:10 | <monochrom> | something about "needle hitting one point no more no less" |
| 22:01:44 | <karasu1[m]> | i've heard all the mnemonics and definitions before |
| 22:01:52 | <karasu1[m]> | but I can't remember em man... |
| 22:02:04 | <monochrom> | On the west side of the Atlantic, the words are "one-to-one" for injective, "on to" for surjective. Perhaps you can use them instead. |
| 22:02:44 | <hololeap> | there's also monomorphism and epimorphism if that helps you remember >:) |
| 22:02:51 | <karasu1[m]> | noooooo |
| 22:02:51 | <hyperisco> | I don't know if you're astray if you say "invertible" instead of "injective" |
| 22:02:54 | <dolio> | "onto" always seemed like a pretty bad name to me. |
| 22:03:11 | <karasu1[m]> | no more math words... |
| 22:03:38 | <karasu1[m]> | just kidding lol |
| 22:03:46 | <dolio> | Like, you could describe every function as maping "on to" the codomain. |
| 22:03:55 | <monochrom> | I don't really worry about remembering. I just look up every time I need to. Then if I use it often enough, that's natural spaced repetition right there for free, I don't even have to plan it. If I don't use it often enough, why worry anyway. |
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| 22:04:19 | <ephemient> | "on to" in that the domain is mapped onto the entire range |
| 22:04:21 | <hyperisco> | image, preimage, range, domain, codomain |
| 22:04:38 | <hyperisco> | it is kind of a mess anyways |
| 22:04:50 | <hololeap> | :t (\f -> unzip . map f) :: ((a1,b1) -> (a2,b2)) -> [(a1,b1)] -> ([a2],[b2]) |
| 22:04:52 | <lambdabot> | ((a1, b1) -> (a2, b2)) -> [(a1, b1)] -> ([a2], [b2]) |
| 22:05:00 | <dolio> | I know what the term is supposed to mean. I just don't think the words imply that at all unless you already know they're supposed to. |
| 22:05:04 | <hololeap> | is there another word for this? it reminds me of traverse... |
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| 22:06:15 | <monochrom> | I recently discovered that image and preimage are a Galois connection, image being the lower adjoint, preimage being the upper adjoint, in this relation. |
| 22:06:22 | <monochrom> | And then there's more... |
| 22:06:46 | <dolio> | Oh, also, the domain always maps "onto" the range, because the modern meaning of "range" is the image. |
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| 22:07:49 | <hyperisco> | maybe we should rename surjective to cototal |
| 22:08:25 | <monochrom> | preimage is also the lower adjoint of another Galois connection! The upper adjoint for this, I decided to call it "exclusive image". excIm f D = {y in codomain | forall x in domain. if f x = y then x in D} |
| 22:08:42 | <monochrom> | Therefore, preimage distributes over both union and intersection! |
| 22:09:10 | <hyperisco> | and injective to cofunction |
| 22:09:38 | <dolio> | Yeah, it's an adjoint triple that gives the semantics of the existential and universal quantifiers in logic. |
| 22:09:39 | <karasu1[m]> | I am confusion |
| 22:09:54 | <monochrom> | :) |
| 22:10:02 | <karasu1[m]> | Is everyone here a math professor though |
| 22:10:04 | <dolio> | ∃_f ⊣ f⁻¹ ⊣ ∀_f |
| 22:10:10 | monochrom | <3 Galois connections |
| 22:10:17 | <swarmcollective> | not all |
| 22:10:36 | <karasu1[m]> | (obviously I am not..) |
| 22:10:43 | <hyperisco> | I'm just embattled with it, certainly not a professor of it |
| 22:10:44 | <monochrom> | I think there are zero self-identified math profs here. |
| 22:11:04 | <monochrom> | operating word being "self-identified" |
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| 22:11:21 | <dolio> | It's kind of weird to call the ∀ one any kind of "image" though, because there are corner cases where it contains things that aren't in the image of the function. |
| 22:11:41 | <karasu1[m]> | does image mean codomain? |
| 22:11:42 | <monochrom> | Right? http://files.inconsistent.nl/computer-science.jpg applies. >:) |
| 22:11:47 | <hololeap> | cobitraverseOnIdentity? :) |
| 22:11:52 | <ski> | monochrom : ooh, "exclusive image", i like it :) |
| 22:12:28 | <monochrom> | Well, dolio, yeah, it contains everything outside the image. :) |
| 22:12:39 | <hyperisco> | let go of computability, give in to your infinite desires |
| 22:12:58 | <dolio> | Although, from a discussion about this elsewhere, I learned that there's a similar set of adjoints in another area where people call the ∀_f adjunct the "direct image", even though that's what people used to call the ∃_f one (which is nowadays just called the "image" I guess). |
| 22:13:24 | <hyperisco> | anything exists that can be proven to not not exist |
| 22:13:41 | <hyperisco> | they have all the luxuries, really |
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| 22:14:47 | <dolio> | monochrom: Unfortunately it sometimes contains things in the image, I think, so you can't even name it something that would make sense as the complement. :) |
| 22:15:13 | <dolio> | Like "bokeh" or whatever. |
| 22:15:14 | <monochrom> | Yeah I only spent 10 minutes on the name. |
| 22:15:35 | <monochrom> | With 1 week I may be able to think up a better name... |
| 22:15:45 | × | frozenErebus quits (~frozenEre@94.128.219.166) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 22:15:53 | <monochrom> | But right now I have a much more important and surprising proof to do... |
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| 22:16:35 | <monochrom> | Actually I could use your help with choosing a good name for a function I need in the proof... |
| 22:17:34 | <monochrom> | foo :: (Natural -> Maybe a) -> [a]. Idea: foo f = [f 0, f 1, f 2, ...] ends at the first n such that f n = Nothing. |
| 22:18:07 | <hyperisco> | span |
| 22:18:22 | <monochrom> | Actual code: foo f = go 0 where go i = case f i of {Nothing -> []; Just x -> x : go (i+1) } |
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| 22:20:08 | <monochrom> | "span" is kind of taken. |
| 22:20:12 | <dolio> | prefix? |
| 22:20:56 | <monochrom> | but "span" does inspire me of something |
| 22:20:58 | <hyperisco> | reach |
| 22:21:40 | <ski> | reminds me of "no infinite descent" |
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| 22:22:08 | <monochrom> | Yikes, longest contiguous prefix |
| 22:22:23 | <ski> | or "maximal" |
| 22:23:05 | <monochrom> | first balloon. |
| 22:23:26 | <hyperisco> | I think prefix implies contiguity |
| 22:24:17 | <monochrom> | It is also an imperfect inverse of safeIndex :: [a] -> Natural -> Maybe a |
| 22:25:08 | <monochrom> | and also I had trouble shaking "redex" out of my head heh |
| 22:25:13 | <dolio> | Right, it's a retract (assuming I have it the right way around). |
| 22:25:14 | <monochrom> | s/also/so/ |
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| 22:28:15 | <ski> | yes, retract |
| 22:28:30 | <dolio> | I think only caring about the domain of definition of the partiala function is the wrong notion of injectivity, now that I think of it. |
| 22:28:34 | <ski> | hm, or do people say "retraction" ? |
| 22:28:44 | <ski> | "retract" may be the name for the whole situation |
| 22:28:57 | <monochrom> | It's retract. |
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| 22:29:20 | <monochrom> | Retraction is when your paper is wrong. :) |
| 22:29:38 | <dolio> | Because an 'injective' function with undefined points may not be left-cancellable. |
| 22:29:41 | <ski> | `A' is a retract of `B' if we have a "retraction" `r : B >--->> A' and a "section" `s : A >>---> B' such that `r . s = id_A' |
| 22:29:49 | <dolio> | So injective must be total. |
| 22:29:52 | <ski> | is how i've seen the terminology used |
| 22:30:32 | <dolio> | I think 'retract' is sometimes used for the retraction map, too. |
| 22:30:33 | <ski> | (so "retract" would apply to the relation between the objects, and "retraction" describes one of the morphisms) |
| 22:30:35 | <monochrom> | I need to put that on a flashcard, ski. :) |
| 22:30:50 | <ski> | dolio : i wouldn't be surprised |
| 22:30:53 | <monochrom> | btw I missed the opportunity for great jokes last night about flashcards. |
| 22:30:57 | <dolio> | But never 'sect'. |
| 22:31:16 | <ski> | hm, can we figure out some nice usage of "sect" ? |
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| 22:31:20 | <monochrom> | Does SD card count as flashcard? Does Compact Flash card count as flashcard? >:) |
| 22:31:30 | <ski> | is `B' a "sect" of `A', above, say ? |
| 22:32:01 | <monochrom> | Hey perhaps it's "section and sectionion" |
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| 22:32:04 | <ski> | monochrom : does it involve Adobe Flash ? |
| 22:32:16 | <monochrom> | :) |
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| 22:33:02 | monochrom | still has a Compact Flash card |
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| 23:10:21 | <monochrom> | Naughty candidate: enumerate until leftmost absence = EULA |
| 23:11:01 | <monochrom> | (Don't worry, my current serious choice is ufn = until first nothing) |
| 23:12:03 | <ski> | `whileJust' ? |
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| 23:12:25 | <monochrom> | Yeah that's nice too. |
| 23:12:43 | <monochrom> | Nicer. |
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| 23:42:17 | <GreyFaceNoSpace> | hi |
| 23:42:29 | <ski> | lo |
| 23:42:41 | <GreyFaceNoSpace> | im new to haskell in general and need some help figuring out whats wrong with this function |
| 23:42:43 | <GreyFaceNoSpace> | https://pastebin.com/UQRXUGw0 |
| 23:42:55 | <GreyFaceNoSpace> | i want it to generate a random list |
| 23:44:31 | <ski> | base case is a type error |
| 23:44:31 | <GreyFaceNoSpace> | "parse error on input ‘let’ |
| 23:44:31 | <GreyFaceNoSpace> | Failed, modules loaded: none." |
| 23:44:36 | <monochrom> | I think you should look at that paste yourself, too. There is an obvious indentation problem. |
| 23:44:56 | <monochrom> | or rather alignment problem. |
| 23:44:59 | <GreyFaceNoSpace> | yeah i think the indentation got screwed while i was pasting |
| 23:45:03 | <GreyFaceNoSpace> | sorry about that |
| 23:45:14 | <ski> | yes, layout is off |
| 23:45:33 | <swarmcollective> | Is the `in` necessary in a `do` block like that? |
| 23:45:41 | <monochrom> | No. |
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| 23:46:10 | <ski> | you could use `randomIO' in place of `random' |
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| 23:46:24 | <GreyFaceNoSpace> | is there a way not to use IO at all? |
| 23:46:45 | <ski> | pass in the `StdGen' as a parameter to `generateAsyncTsks' |
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All times are in UTC on 2021-02-19.