Logs on 2021-03-07 (freenode/#haskell)
| 00:00:11 | <hpc> | the key point is you don't really have two independent Either values at all, you have some other type that has the correlation built in |
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| 00:10:12 | <jumper149> | :k Either |
| 00:10:14 | <lambdabot> | * -> * -> * |
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| 01:38:27 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | @hoogle a -> ((a)) |
| 01:38:29 | <lambdabot> | Prelude id :: a -> a |
| 01:38:29 | <lambdabot> | Data.Function id :: a -> a |
| 01:38:29 | <lambdabot> | GHC.Base breakpoint :: a -> a |
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| 02:08:53 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Given the way that Haskell's structured, I thought to myself (while reading a gentle introduction to Haskell, which tbh, is long overdue for me), if `1:2:3:[]` is synonymous to `[1,2,3]`, then is `(,)` a prelude-defined thing? like `(:)`? Sure enough it is... which leads me to my next question, after Hoogling `(,)`, I see that in prelude there's all the way up to |
| 02:08:53 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | `(,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,)` Is that the maximum length of a tuple? Or is this just all that they bothered indexing? |
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| 02:10:20 | <mniip> | heck-to-the-gnom, the compiler has certain limitations |
| 02:11:25 | <c_wraith> | I think 63 elements is all that's required by the spec, but it also allows for instances to stop significantly lower |
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| 02:13:23 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | 62, in ghci, just figured that out. Does this mean that there's a certain limit to how many functions can be chained together? Or does that get canceled out somehow? (obv it'd place limits on function parameters, but... due to currying, I'm not 100% certain on that) |
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| 02:14:03 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Oh, GHC said that nesting tuples is allowed, nvm, currying fixes that |
| 02:14:06 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | brilliant |
| 02:14:13 | <c_wraith> | Nah, the limit is just on elements in a single tuple |
| 02:14:22 | <c_wraith> | And you can have more elements in your own data type. |
| 02:14:43 | <c_wraith> | There are good arguments to be made that once you're past about 4, you should be using a custom type anyway |
| 02:14:48 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Hm, well, that's certainly interesting. |
| 02:14:56 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Or at least an array for heavens sake |
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| 02:18:18 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | How would I use the @hoogle function from within ghci? e.g find functions of a certain type: |
| 02:18:24 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | @hoogle [a] -> a |
| 02:18:24 | <lambdabot> | Prelude head :: [a] -> a |
| 02:18:25 | <lambdabot> | Prelude last :: [a] -> a |
| 02:18:25 | <lambdabot> | Data.List head :: [a] -> a |
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| 02:18:43 | <c_wraith> | I don't think any of the projects that used to do that have been maintained. |
| 02:19:15 | <c_wraith> | You can set up a local hoogle and search it via command line, though. and I suppose you can get ghci to shell for a single command |
| 02:19:58 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Regardless, it's still useful, I was looking for `last`, under the name `foot` given that `head` could also be called `first` |
| 02:20:21 | <c_wraith> | ghci also has :browse to show you the contents of modules. can be worth knowing about |
| 02:20:28 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | I'd like to know how to do that without pinging external sources, I may just end up getting local hoogle though, good point |
| 02:20:47 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Yeah, I found that, but it's not quite what I'm looking for, still useful though |
| 02:20:56 | <c_wraith> | yeah, it's definitely a different thing. |
| 02:21:37 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | I mean, if I know it's in prelude, I could probably set up a shell script to grep for it in :browse 's output... |
| 02:21:53 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | think* |
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| 02:24:07 | <olligobber> | @hoogle Foldable t => t a -> a |
| 02:24:08 | <lambdabot> | Test.Extrapolate.TypeBinding argTy1of1 :: con a -> a |
| 02:24:08 | <lambdabot> | Prelude maximum :: forall a . (Foldable t, Ord a) => t a -> a |
| 02:24:09 | <lambdabot> | Prelude minimum :: forall a . (Foldable t, Ord a) => t a -> a |
| 02:24:16 | <c_wraith> | :t fold |
| 02:24:17 | <lambdabot> | (Foldable t, Monoid m) => t m -> m |
| 02:24:18 | <olligobber> | not what I wanted |
| 02:24:23 | <c_wraith> | is that the one you wanted? |
| 02:24:30 | <olligobber> | nah |
| 02:24:47 | <c_wraith> | so what were you looking for? |
| 02:24:54 | <olligobber> | head/last |
| 02:25:13 | <olligobber> | :t head . toList |
| 02:25:15 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 02:25:15 | <lambdabot> | Ambiguous occurrence ‘toList’ |
| 02:25:15 | <lambdabot> | It could refer to |
| 02:25:24 | <olligobber> | hmm |
| 02:25:55 | <c_wraith> | :t foldr const (error "the world lied to me") |
| 02:25:56 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t => t b -> b |
| 02:26:26 | <c_wraith> | or, I suppose... |
| 02:26:30 | <c_wraith> | :t foldr1 const |
| 02:26:31 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t => t b -> b |
| 02:26:49 | <olligobber> | :t getFirst . foldMap (First . Just) |
| 02:26:51 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t => t a -> Maybe a |
| 02:27:53 | <olligobber> | heck-to-the-gnom, I would just open a browser, type hoogle and press tab to search |
| 02:28:22 | <c_wraith> | I can understand wanting to be able to search without an internet connection |
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| 02:28:43 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | I have an xmonad binding to search hoogle `M-s h` |
| 02:29:18 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Works with xmonad's prompt system, works for me, but then again, offline is really the goal here, as well as faster response times anyway |
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| 02:30:34 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | I haven't been able to deduce wtf `(.)` does exactly, and its documentation isn't exactly clear... What does it do? I've seen it in place of `$` a few times, but all the times I've tried to use it a wall of errors chases me down the hallway. |
| 02:31:28 | <c_wraith> | Both of them are uniquely specified by their types |
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| 02:31:35 | <c_wraith> | :t ($) |
| 02:31:36 | <lambdabot> | (a -> b) -> a -> b |
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| 02:32:09 | <c_wraith> | first argument is a function. Second argument is a value of the function's argument type. Returns the result of applying the function to the value |
| 02:32:33 | <c_wraith> | > show $ 3 |
| 02:32:35 | <lambdabot> | "3" |
| 02:32:58 | <c_wraith> | Might seem boring, but it's conveniently the lowest possible precedence operator, so you can do things like... |
| 02:33:03 | <c_wraith> | > show $ 1 + 2 |
| 02:33:05 | <lambdabot> | "3" |
| 02:34:48 | <c_wraith> | (.) is slightly more complicated, but *really* useful. |
| 02:35:34 | <olligobber> | @src (.) |
| 02:35:34 | <lambdabot> | (f . g) x = f (g x) |
| 02:35:39 | <olligobber> | @src ($) |
| 02:35:39 | <lambdabot> | f $ x = f x |
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| 02:35:54 | <olligobber> | so f . g $ x == f $ g $ x |
| 02:36:27 | <olligobber> | $ is useful for avoiding brackets |
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| 02:37:55 | <c_wraith> | (.) is mostly about not bothering to name arguments. |
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| 02:38:34 | <c_wraith> | You can obviously go too far in trying to do that. But a lot of things form simple pipelines where naming an argument would just be extra noise |
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| 02:39:14 | <monochrom> | That's not how I use (.). I use it to express a pipeline. I usually still have an argument. (h . g . f) x |
| 02:40:02 | <monochrom> | And when I don't have a simple pipeline, I don't shoehorn things into (.) |
| 02:41:43 | <monochrom> | pointfree would be the one about not bothering to name arguments. But pointfree is way more overboard than just using (.) |
| 02:42:22 | <c_wraith> | Do you go out of your way to write things like (\x -> (First . just) x) instead of (First . Just)? |
| 02:42:26 | <monochrom> | If you have (f x, g x), pointfree has a combinator for that. If you have (f x, f y), pointfree has a combinator for that. Etc etc |
| 02:42:34 | <monochrom> | No. |
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| 02:43:57 | <monochrom> | I write main = interact (unlines . map read . lines) |
| 02:44:15 | <monochrom> | But I also write f x = (arctan . sin) x + sqrt x |
| 02:44:58 | <monochrom> | I don't go out of my way to be pointfree or pointful. That's my point. |
| 02:45:07 | <MarcelineVQ> | -2 |
| 02:45:10 | slack1256 | got the pun |
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| 02:45:50 | <MarcelineVQ> | monochrom: that's the modern monochrom-- fwiw |
| 02:46:14 | <MarcelineVQ> | fwiw fyi bbq |
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| 03:37:42 | <growpotkin> | Hey it's been a while since I've written Haskell, but I used to all the time. There used to be a module/tool where you could give it a function definition, and it would rewrite/simplify it. I cannot remember the name of it for the life of me. It was really nice because it would tell you the fancy operator to replace a lot of `do' expressions with. |
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| 03:38:25 | <c_wraith> | hlint? |
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| 03:40:20 | <growpotkin> | No it's on the tip of my tongue though. It was like "hcompose" or something. I'm going to see if it's anywhere in my old dot files. It's driving me nuts I can't remember haha |
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| 03:40:24 | <hiptobecubic> | djinn |
| 03:40:26 | <hiptobecubic> | ? |
| 03:41:02 | <hiptobecubic> | there's djinn and some other thing that rewrites as pointfree |
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| 03:41:13 | <hiptobecubic> | whether that's "simplifying" it is another story |
| 03:41:20 | <growpotkin> | pointfree ! |
| 03:41:23 | <growpotkin> | yes thank you |
| 03:41:30 | <growpotkin> | my savior |
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| 04:26:52 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Ooh, I'll have to look into pointfree |
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| 04:30:25 | <swarmcollective> | @pl (h . g . f) x |
| 04:30:25 | <lambdabot> | h (g (f x)) |
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| 04:30:57 | <swarmcollective> | @pointful h (g (f x)) |
| 04:30:57 | <lambdabot> | h (g (f x)) |
| 04:31:17 | <swarmcollective> | @unpl h (g (f x)) |
| 04:31:17 | <lambdabot> | h (g (f x)) |
| 04:31:39 | <swarmcollective> | @unpf h (g (f x)) |
| 04:31:39 | <lambdabot> | h (g (f x)) |
| 04:31:44 | <swarmcollective> | Hrmpf |
| 04:40:31 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Sorry, just returned, so... you just use '.' in place of '$' but if you're chaining a lot together, then you better use '$' at the end at least? Am I getting this right? |
| 04:41:42 | <dolio> | You don't have to use $ at the end, but you can. |
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| 04:42:43 | <swarmcollective> | I think of it like this: (f1 . f2) a = f1 (f2 a) |
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| 04:43:27 | <swarmcollective> | or: (f3 . f2 . f1) a = f3 (f2 (f1 a)) = f3 $ f2 $ f1 a |
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| 04:43:52 | <swarmcollective> | Three styles that accomplish the same thing "basically". |
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| 04:45:53 | <swarmcollective> | The first, though, decouples the function (f3 . f2 . f1) from the parameter "a" such that you could pass (f3 . f2 . f1) as a parameter where (a -> a) is expected. |
| 04:46:17 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | OK, take this as an example I just tried to work with: `scon arr = last arr : ( reverse $ tail (reverse arr) )`, replacing `$` with `.` doesn't work, why's that? Is it because `.` only works with one argument, and... Well, no... If that was the case, then it'd do nothing 😳 |
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| 04:46:45 | <swarmcollective> | Errr: (a -> ?) is expected, since this example doesn't really show the type of the result. |
| 04:46:47 | <dolio> | ($) and (.) aren't the same function. |
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| 04:47:42 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Of course not, but to me they seem approximately the same, and I'm just trying to understand how to use it. I just simplified a thing I was working on with `flip` and it felt so rewarding |
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| 04:48:13 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | or at least, the same outcome, of course, not the same inner workings, otherwise one would've been abandoned at its inception... |
| 04:48:14 | <swarmcollective> | ( (reverse . tail) (reverse arr) ) |
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| 04:48:19 | <dolio> | Well, if you have `reverse $ tail (reverse arr)` and you just replace `$` with `.`, they would have to be the same function, because they're getting the same arguments. |
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| 04:49:23 | <dolio> | The only reason you can replace a $ with a . with multiple chained $ is that it parses differently, but without multiple operataors it won't. |
| 04:49:24 | <swarmcollective> | ( (reverse . tail . reverse) arr ) |
| 04:49:41 | <swarmcollective> | Which is just: init arr |
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| 04:53:42 | <swarmcollective> | so, `scon arr = last arr : init arr` right? |
| 04:53:48 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | yes |
| 04:54:09 | <swarmcollective> | Whew, I think that means I'm learning. :) |
| 04:54:13 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | So... `a . b c d . e f g` == `a (b c d) (e f g)`? Whereas `a $ b c d $ e f g` == `a ( b c d (e f g) )`? If... I'm getting this right |
| 04:54:21 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Me too ;) |
| 04:55:07 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Since `$` right-associates |
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| 04:56:56 | <swarmcollective> | When I first started learning Haskell, which was on-stream (Twitch), I had one or two people saying "you should use point-free" and another one or two saying "you should use parenthesis, like f (g (h a))" and someone else saying, "you should use $". Arrgghhh! I didn't even know what (f . g) a meant, let alone how to convert it to f (g a) or f $ ga. |
| 04:57:17 | <swarmcollective> | (err pointful) |
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| 04:57:37 | <d34df00d> | Can I somehow derive Data.Data for a type like this: https://bpa.st/5I4A ? |
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| 04:57:45 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Parenthesis, when reasonably avioded, are dumb imo |
| 04:58:10 | <justsomeguy> | That sounds frustrating, swarmcollective |
| 04:58:51 | <swarmcollective> | I very much appreciate the people trying to help, but one concept at a time would have been easier. |
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| 04:59:30 | <justsomeguy> | That's probably hard to coordinate on a platform like twitch. |
| 04:59:35 | <MarcelineVQ> | but what if you need two concepts at once for either to work? |
| 04:59:53 | <swarmcollective> | It was when I started working on Haskell in "private" that I finally got the hang of it. I hope it makes sense and you find it useful. heck-to-the-gnom |
| 05:00:24 | <swarmcollective> | MarcelineVQ: Do you have an example? |
| 05:00:37 | <swarmcollective> | d34df00d: I'll take a look. |
| 05:00:40 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Yeah, I'm just trying to grapple with more concepts, I've successfully made a few things work on my own now. |
| 05:01:17 | <justsomeguy> | Do you find streaming while you learn stuff helpful, in general? I've never tried that, and now I'm curious. |
| 05:01:58 | justsomeguy | is also a haskell noob -- about halfway through haskellbook.com with the help of someone here on irc. |
| 05:02:10 | <MarcelineVQ> | swarmcollective: none that are serious |
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| 05:03:10 | <justsomeguy> | I think maybe I'd like to try teaching the book at a meetup or through videos once I've finished it. |
| 05:03:30 | <justsomeguy> | Then again, I still really suck at programming/haskell. |
| 05:03:41 | <swarmcollective> | justsomeguy: It depends. I find that streaming can be helpful in that often people will try to help... and by help, I mean give you lots of things to look at (aka distractions). :D But I learn a lot of things that I would never have thought to learn otherwise. |
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| 05:05:09 | <justsomeguy> | Yes, that seems like it could be distracting, but also fun. I imagine that the enthusasim from other peoplse comments may be helpful to stay motivated. |
| 05:05:10 | <swarmcollective> | No one should stream with the expectation that it will help you focus. It is nearly impossible to stream and stay focused, unless you ignore the conversation entirely. |
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| 05:06:17 | <swarmcollective> | However, I might not have "found" Haskell if it weren't for people on Twitch recommending I check it out. |
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| 05:06:53 | <justsomeguy> | What do you think of Haskell so far? |
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| 05:07:36 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Programmers on twitch, how interesting. I've really only seen gaming, reactions, or youtube-challenge-type content on twitch before. |
| 05:08:10 | <swarmcollective> | I really enjoy writing Haskell. I mean, once I understood enough syntax and could (sort of) read error messages, I started to appreciate how helpful the compiler + type system is. |
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| 05:08:28 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | +1 |
| 05:09:07 | justsomeguy | 's reactions while learning have spanned a range from "why am I learning this uselsess academic language" to "haskell is super great at making things composible, imperative languages are crazy in comparison" and even "this will be a competitve advantage". |
| 05:09:14 | <swarmcollective> | heck-to-the-gnom: there are quite a few programming streams on Twitch in the Science and Technology category. The problem is that Science and Technology is a broad category. |
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| 05:11:34 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | I started learning it 'cause some Linux youtuber made a video (8 of them now, I think) on how great and customizable XMonad is. That's still the hobby project I've been working on, for ~6 months, on & off now. I think I'm getting close to finishing, I might make a cipher or encryption algorithm for my next project, just to learn. |
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| 05:12:11 | <swarmcollective> | Considering my background, where I started with line-number BASIC and x86 Assembly, moving to a pure-functional language like Haskell, at least at first, felt limiting. That quickly faded when I realized how the type-system was keeping me from doing something that was obviously silly, and the pure-functions kept me from mistakenly overwriting "variables", then I really began to enjoy it. |
| 05:12:52 | <justsomeguy> | Cool :^). I've found ciphers are good learning projects, generally. |
| 05:13:40 | <justsomeguy> | Yeah, I really like the idea of non-reassignable name bindings. It makes it easier to track what a vlue will be within a particular scope. |
| 05:13:46 | <swarmcollective> | d34df00d: That code sample is beyond my knowledge. I am sorry I can't help. |
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| 05:15:38 | <swarmcollective> | When devs ask me to explain pure functional programming, I typically say "write all `variables` as const or final and you can't use for-loops and while-loops". The typical response is "uhhh... how would that even work." LOL |
| 05:15:59 | <monochrom> | I started with BASIC too. But I found BASIC the limiting one. |
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| 05:16:24 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Uh, I'm newer to this, I started as a soy-dev |
| 05:16:30 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | JS plebian, I once was |
| 05:17:38 | <swarmcollective> | True, monochrom ... but at the time it was all I had. Well, until the parent of a friend gave me "Turbo Pascal". Then I learned RPG II and OCL. Those were the days. LOL |
| 05:18:09 | <monochrom> | Even in my BASIC days, I felt mutable variables overrated. They are much needed in BASIC because it lacks mechanisms that make more sense. If you can't even pass parameters when you GOSUB, of course your last resort is mutable variables, and global ones at that. |
| 05:19:03 | <swarmcollective> | I did very much enjoy writing interrupt handlers in Assembly though. Well, and rewriting the boot sector. ;) |
| 05:19:51 | <justsomeguy> | Heh, I wonder what that was like. It sounds so different. I only started programming two or three years ago, in Python, which I learned in CS101. Everything has been super high-level. Only now am I starting to learn how to talk to hardware and work with sockets/etc. |
| 05:20:16 | <swarmcollective> | Imagine what the web would look like today if javascript had been written as a pure-functional language (I mean, as pure-functional as Haskell is). |
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| 05:21:06 | <monochrom> | Very early on I realized that if I'm allowed recursion then I no longer need mutable variables. At least for small types like Int. |
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| 05:21:31 | <swarmcollective> | monochrom: How long have you worked with Haskell? |
| 05:21:49 | <monochrom> | Pretty long? I ran into it circa year 2000. |
| 05:22:08 | <swarmcollective> | Oh, lucky you! |
| 05:22:13 | <monochrom> | But my thoughts I'm describing now were from my BASIC and Pascal days. |
| 05:22:52 | <Cale> | Imagine what the web would look like today if Javascript was something that was more of a reasonable target language for compilers, like LLVM. |
| 05:22:52 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | swarmcollective: Then no one would hate the modern web as us technologically informed people do |
| 05:22:59 | <swarmcollective> | I understand. I did not have that revelation, regarding mutable variables and recursion. |
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| 05:23:46 | <monochrom> | CS courses I took presented both a loop algorithm and a recursive algorithm, both in Pascal, for linked list operations. I immediately felt in love with the recursive ones. |
| 05:25:11 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Recursion is definitely really cool. My mind was blown when I first came across it. Apparently there's some malware going around that is 100% recursive in nature, security researchers had a really hard time understanding it. |
| 05:25:13 | <MarcelineVQ> | I still get tickled that you can, in a sense, make use of a value before it exists with recursion. |
| 05:25:49 | <monochrom> | If you look at everything in the world recursively, suddenly "how is it possible to compute anything without state" sounds silly. |
| 05:26:16 | <swarmcollective> | Only formal programming training for me was BASIC and RPG II in high-school. I believe I would have really enjoyed college / university level programming courses. |
| 05:26:20 | <MarcelineVQ> | span being my go to example for that https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.1.0/docs/src/GHC.List.html#span |
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| 05:26:46 | <dolio> | Web stuff would probably still be pretty bad even if JS were good. |
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| 05:27:45 | <monochrom> | To be sure, if you don't have mutable arrays, you do lose a few important efficient algorithms. But no one here is saying you never need them. I for one am just saying mutable variables are overrated for the rest. |
| 05:28:03 | <monochrom> | And it's only because BASIC makes recursion useless. |
| 05:28:09 | <d34df00d> | swarmcollective: no worries, thanks for taking a look! |
| 05:28:39 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | dolio: Likely, but JS is the biggest issue. Meaning that things like gopher or gemeni thrive because they don't do any of the BS thrills that normies are used to |
| 05:28:59 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Gemini* |
| 05:29:31 | <swarmcollective> | Ahhh, `span` is like `partition` except for "front, back". Nice. |
| 05:30:08 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | @hoogle [a] -> a -> a |
| 05:30:10 | <lambdabot> | Util seqList :: [a] -> b -> b |
| 05:30:10 | <lambdabot> | MathObj.Permutation.CycleList cycleAction :: Eq i => [i] -> i -> i |
| 05:30:10 | <lambdabot> | MathObj.PowerSeries.Core evaluate :: C a => [a] -> a -> a |
| 05:30:19 | <Cale> | span and break are more closely related than span and partition |
| 05:30:49 | <Cale> | partition splits the list into all the elements that satisfy the predicate and all those which don't |
| 05:30:55 | <swarmcollective> | True, good point Cale |
| 05:31:23 | <Cale> | span splits the list into the longest initial segment which satisfies the predicate, and the rest |
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| 05:31:39 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Hmm, is there a `:`, but instead of a prepending, appending? e.g `[a] ^: b` == `[a,b]` |
| 05:31:57 | <swarmcollective> | I suspect that I've been abusing partition where I should be using a map. |
| 05:32:43 | <monochrom> | span/break are related to takeWhile and dropWhile. filter is related to partition. |
| 05:32:48 | <Cale> | heck-to-the-gnom: Nope, you can use xs ++ [x], but it's a fundamentally expensive operation. If you have to do it a lot, then it might be more correct to store your list in the opposite order, or use a different sort of data structure. |
| 05:32:54 | <swarmcollective> | heck-to-the-gnom: snoc (and it's cousin cons), but it is in "extra", not prelude or base. |
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| 05:35:56 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | No, I was just wondering if I could simplify my self-defined (because I don't feel like installing Extra right now) cons & snoc |
| 05:36:14 | <Cale> | The reason it's expensive is that by contrast with (x:xs) which allocates a small structure that has pointers to x and xs in it, it has to reconstruct the entire list -- it can't just point at something which already exists in memory since the result in general won't have any tail in common with the original list. |
| 05:36:24 | <Cale> | (except the [] at the end of course) |
| 05:37:04 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Curious: why ever use a list, when arrays are more performant? |
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| 05:37:57 | <Cale> | They're not |
| 05:38:25 | <Cale> | If you want to add an element to an array anywhere, you end up allocating an entirely new array and copying everything into it |
| 05:39:26 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Fair point |
| 05:39:42 | <Cale> | There's also a sense in which a lazy list is essentially a loop which hasn't happened yet |
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| 05:40:09 | <Cale> | A loop might have no iterations (because its precondition isn't met, for example), or it might consist of an iteration followed by another loop |
| 05:40:30 | <Cale> | A list might have no elements (because it's the empty list), or it might consist of a single element followed by another list |
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| 05:40:56 | <Cale> | Putting stuff in a list is a way of expressing "I want to iterate over these things in this order" |
| 05:41:48 | <Cale> | In a lazy setting, that connection is more satisfying, since you might only allocate one element of the list at a time, and it may be infinitely long |
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| 05:42:37 | <swarmcollective> | Cale, is that, at least in part, why String is so popular when Text and ByteString, if I understand correctly, are more memory efficient? Text and ByteString using arrays under the hood? |
| 05:43:02 | <monochrom> | String is more popular just because it's older. |
| 05:43:26 | <Cale> | Yeah, String has just been around longer... iterating over characters one by one is not all that great a lot of the time. |
| 05:43:44 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | OK, third random question within the last 10 minutes: |
| 05:44:20 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Am I using a list comprehension guard correctly? `[x | x <- u, ifFloat'' x]`, where `ifFloat''` takes one argument |
| 05:44:22 | <swarmcollective> | heck-to-the-gnom: First two are free, the third costs 100 push-ups. |
| 05:44:33 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | ;) |
| 05:44:59 | <Cale> | heck-to-the-gnom: There's nothing obviously wrong with that. u should be a list of potential arguments to ifFloat'' and the result of ifFloat'' should be Bool |
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| 05:46:26 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Ah, I see, I was returning bool, but since I hadn't explicitly declared it the compiler got confused due to my particular usage |
| 05:47:10 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | One more reason for me to start typing my things, before GHC changes something under the hood and all of a sudden all my programs don't compile |
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| 05:49:46 | <swarmcollective> | Is there a constraint similar to Num or Integral that can be used for "String-like" which will allow a function to take String, Text, or ByteString given the implementation is compatible? My assumption is, No, but if there is it might be handy. |
| 05:49:56 | <Cale> | heck-to-the-gnom: Type inference is usually pretty consistent, but you'll get better error messages if you give types to things. |
| 05:50:34 | <Cale> | swarmcollective: There could be, but it's hard to agree on exactly what operations it should contain |
| 05:51:15 | swarmcollective | nods |
| 05:51:34 | <Cale> | If all you want is concatenation and an empty element, you could use Monoid. |
| 05:52:55 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Couldn't match expected type `a` with actual type `Maybe k0` `a` is a rigid type variable bound by the type signature for: ifFloat'' :: forall a. a -> Bool |
| 05:52:55 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | where I'm using `let blah = blah in case blah of Just x | blah x -> True; _ -> False` |
| 05:53:07 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | What am I doing wrong there? |
| 05:53:21 | <dmwit> | swarmcollective: You might like the mono-traversable package. |
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| 05:53:31 | <swarmcollective> | It seems, naively, that cons, snoc, (++ & append & concat), null or pattern Empty would all be useful. |
| 05:53:39 | <dmwit> | It provides MonoTraversable instances for String, Text, and ByteString. |
| 05:53:46 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Should I do `Maybe False`? |
| 05:53:59 | <swarmcollective> | Hmmm. Thanks dmwit ! I'll have a look. |
| 05:54:14 | <dmwit> | heck-to-the-gnom: insufficient data for meaningful answer |
| 05:54:27 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | hm... OK, paste comin' up |
| 05:54:36 | <dmwit> | heck-to-the-gnom: Make a minimal reproducible example and put it up on a pastebin somewhere (e.g. gist.github.com). |
| 05:54:56 | <swarmcollective> | heck-to-the-gnom: definitely use "false-ish" (just kidding) |
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| 05:59:18 | <Cale> | heck-to-the-gnom: Well, the first sketchy thing is that blah = blah will be an infinite loop |
| 05:59:28 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | lol |
| 05:59:33 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | dmwit: https://p.bsd-unix.net/view/fecb5f33 |
| 05:59:50 | <Cale> | heck-to-the-gnom: and then you're pattern matching on blah as something of type Maybe t (for some t we can't discern) |
| 05:59:58 | <Cale> | but you're also using blah as a function |
| 06:00:05 | <Cale> | applying it to a value of type t |
| 06:00:16 | <dmwit> | Well, your `ifFloat''` *definitely* doesn't have type `a -> Bool`. |
| 06:00:17 | <Cale> | blah can't be both a function and a value of type Maybe t at the same time |
| 06:00:28 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | it doesn't!? |
| 06:00:59 | <Cale> | Yeah, wind is definitely a Maybe something |
| 06:01:06 | <dmwit> | The type `a -> Bool` says that I, the caller, may choose any type I like, say, Dmwit'sRadThingThatHeckToTheGnomeNeverHeardOf, and you'll give me back a Bool from one of those. |
| 06:01:37 | <dmwit> | Next up: `gets windowset` is almost certainly an action in the `X` monad, so `M.member w` ain't gonna work. |
| 06:01:50 | <dmwit> | Sorry, I mean `W.floating ws` ain't gonna work. |
| 06:02:22 | <dmwit> | I think you're going to have to run `gets windowset` in `oi` first, and pass the result in as an argument to `ifFloat''`. |
| 06:02:46 | ← | jakalx parts (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ("Error from remote client") |
| 06:03:54 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | OK, sorry to cut things short, but I've to be elsewhere asap, but, I'll investigate the things you've pointed out tomorrow. Also, I realized that `ifFloat''` at the least is of type `Maybe a -> Bool` |
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| 06:04:42 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Oh, Cale said that before... |
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| 06:07:33 | <swarmcollective> | I suppose I'll have to do that sleep thing AGAIN. *sigh* However, thank you all for your assistance! It is greatly appreciated! |
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| 07:03:04 | <ski> | MarcelineVQ : hm, how's `span' an example of that ? |
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| 07:11:10 | <MarcelineVQ> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.1.0/docs/src/GHC.List.html#span with let (ys,zs) = span p xs' in (x:ys,zs) our use of ys and zs after the 'in' are values we're using to complete our definition that won't exist until span has completed, we're borrowing a future answer to a question we have right now, and in fact creating that answer while we do so. |
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| 07:11:54 | <MarcelineVQ> | I'm sure I've put that better at some point though |
| 07:12:19 | <koz_> | MarcelineVQ: 'We use time travel magic.' |
| 07:12:41 | <MarcelineVQ> | "I need something that gives me X, first I'll assume I have an X..." |
| 07:14:22 | <ski> | MarcelineVQ : well, that definition of `span' would also work in a strict language (albeit obviously not for infinite lists) |
| 07:15:12 | <ski> | "make use of a value before it exists with recursion" to me sounds more like it'd properly describe a `repMin'-like tying-the-knot or something |
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| 07:17:32 | <ski> | (so, i'm not really seeing how "we're borrowing a future answer to a question we have right now, and in fact creating that answer while we do so" is appropriately describing what's happening in this case, nor how they're "values we're using to complete our definition that won't exist until span has completed") |
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| 07:27:52 | <MarcelineVQ> | Not my clearest description of anything, "values we're..." is particularly vague and unlikely to line up to actual language semantics, but I do think of span as borrowing a future answer to a question we have right now. I have x:xs, what's the easiest way to complete my definition of span? Assume span already has the answer for xs, and tack my x onto the first tuple component of that answer. |
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| 07:55:28 | <ADG1089> | ghc with packages without cabal/stack on arch (not nix)? |
| 07:55:34 | <ADG1089> | any documentation |
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| 09:08:01 | <arahael> | Why not use cabal? |
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| 09:12:39 | <arahael> | ADG1089: Also, ghc itself seems quite well documented, even if it's just 'man ghc', though there's more info online. |
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| 09:15:02 | <ADG1089> | arahael: I'm using this makefile: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/gxe9PieS. src/problems has ~206 files, each to be compiled as an executable |
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| 09:16:06 | <arahael> | ADG1089: That wasn't quite what I asked, but if you want to do your own build, go for it. |
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| 10:30:42 | <dnlkrgr> | with `optparse-generic`, how to an option with type isomorphic to `Either`? |
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| 10:45:45 | <juri_> | hpc: belated thanks. |
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| 11:11:45 | <ADG1089> | does cabal build --enable-executable-profiling <executable> && cabal run <executable> -- +RTS -p not work? |
| 11:11:56 | <ADG1089> | do i have to modify the flags in cabal file? |
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| 11:45:41 | <maerwald> | cabal run --enable-executable-profiling? |
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| 12:47:46 | <maralorn> | I have now understood how on a finite list foldl' is better than foldr (and foldl obviously). Now I wonder what about Set, Map and friends is it obvious for all of them, that foldl' beats foldr. I am not even sure I understand what "from left" and "from right" mean for them. |
| 12:48:01 | <maralorn> | There belonged a question mark somewher in there … |
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| 12:52:38 | <tromp> | i have a locally modified version of a hackage library. how do i make cabal aware of it (it alrd has the original version installed) ? |
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| 13:03:51 | <__monty__> | tromp: I think the proper way is specifying a source-repository-package in cabal.project, https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-project.html?highlight=source-repository-package#specifying-the-local-packages |
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| 13:05:45 | <tromp> | thank, __monty__ |
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| 14:47:46 | <rond_> | HI! I've got a basic question about this code snippet: |
| 14:47:46 | <rond_> | ` |
| 14:47:47 | <rond_> | bmiTell :: (RealFloat a) => a -> a -> String |
| 14:47:47 | <rond_> | bmiTell weight height |
| 14:47:48 | <rond_> | | weight / height ^ 2 <= 18.5 = "You're underweight, you emo, you!" |
| 14:47:48 | <rond_> | | weight / height ^ 2 <= 25.0 = "You're supposedly normal. Pffft, I bet you're ugly!" |
| 14:47:49 | <rond_> | | weight / height ^ 2 <= 30.0 = "You're fat! Lose some weight, fatty!" |
| 14:47:49 | <rond_> | | otherwise = "You're a whale, congratulations!" |
| 14:47:50 | <rond_> | ` |
| 14:47:50 | <rond_> | How to refactor it so the computation of bmi ( `weight / height ^ 2` ) is present just once? In Ocaml it'd be something like: |
| 14:47:51 | <rond_> | ` |
| 14:47:51 | <rond_> | let bmiTell weight height = |
| 14:47:52 | <rond_> | let bmi = weight / height ^ 2 in |
| 14:47:52 | <rond_> | match bmi with |
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| 14:47:59 | <jess> | huff. |
| 14:48:15 | <ADG1089__> | body shaming |
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| 14:48:59 | <jess> | hi rond_ |
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| 14:49:11 | <jess> | please don't paste lots of lines straight in to irc |
| 14:49:17 | <jess> | put it on a pastebin and link to that :) |
| 14:49:22 | <rond_> | Right, sorry |
| 14:49:30 | <geekosaur> | I'd use a where clause. but it's painful to show that when you've pasted toirc like that |
| 14:49:30 | Alleria | is now known as Guest95072 |
| 14:49:31 | <jess> | no problem, happens to lots of people |
| 14:49:34 | <int-e> | rond_: use a pastebin next time. you can use a `where` clause to define values that you want to use in guards |
| 14:49:38 | <geekosaur> | @where paste |
| 14:49:38 | <lambdabot> | Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com |
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| 14:50:31 | <int-e> | > let foo x | a < 10 = "smaller" | otherwise = "not smaller" where a = x^2 in (foo 3, foo 4) |
| 14:50:33 | <lambdabot> | ("smaller","not smaller") |
| 14:51:54 | <rond_> | Perfect, thanks! Sidenote: seems a bit counter-intuitive that `where` clause is at the very bottom; I'd rather see it on the very top. :) Anyway, thanks! |
| 14:52:31 | <int-e> | other possibilities inlcude... let a = x^2; result | a < 10 = "smaller" | otherwise = "not smaller" in result... |
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| 14:53:29 | <int-e> | or some silly let a = x^2 in case () of _ | a < 10 -> "smaller" | otherwise -> "not smaller" -- but that seems ugly to me |
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| 14:54:04 | <rond_> | Well, I'm just learning Haskell, so I'll stick with `where` for now as it seems to be the default solution |
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| 15:05:11 | <ADG1089__> | i want to check if cabal build is inlining a function or not, how can i do so? |
| 15:05:52 | <ADG1089__> | performing a deterministic dfs on a reversed list is 50-60x faster for me |
| 15:06:42 | <ADG1089__> | I guess reversing is resulting in less thunks created / less recursion depth initially |
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| 16:17:32 | <ADG1089__> | @pl \sm x -> sm + go xss (x * prod) |
| 16:17:33 | <lambdabot> | (. (go xss . (prod *))) . (+) |
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| 16:41:41 | <ADG1089__> | Hi guys, I am trying to improve the performance of a program, do you see anything wrong or should I use a better algorithm: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/PW7jUT10 I already did time profiling and almost 100% time was spent in go function and heap profiling and it uses constant memory after using bang patterns and foldl' Also ~90% was productive time while checking for GC. I have seen multiple implementations of the same algorithm in python in 6-8sec for |
| 16:41:42 | <ADG1089__> | 10^18 but mine take 4-5 sec just for 10^12 |
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| 16:45:48 | <mikoto-chan> | Any good explanation on ADTs? I want to make a function that returns the data constructor of a variable but I only found `typeOf` in `Data.Typeable` that returns the type constructor |
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| 16:48:46 | <geekosaur> | you can do it with Data.Data but I'd question why. also be aware that you can't handle something like Maybe that way since the data constructors have different types |
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| 16:51:17 | <mikoto-chan> | geekosaur: I can add `deriving (Show)` and try with >>= |
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| 16:57:46 | <mikoto-chan> | So I was trying to check the data constructor of my ADT `data Vehicle = Car Manufacturer Price deriving (Eq, Show)` to build a function called isCar, I ended up with `isCar x = (head . words $ show x) == "Car"` but I was wondering if a poiny-free function was possible as well |
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| 16:58:01 | <ADG1089__> | I was able to reduce runtime which felt like exponential by manually unrolling 1 level of recursion probably which short-circuited lot of branches |
| 16:58:25 | <geekosaur> | possible but probably ugly |
| 16:58:51 | <mikoto-chan> | geekosaur: I'm curious :) |
| 16:59:01 | <geekosaur> | @pl \x -> (head . words $ show x) == "Car" |
| 16:59:01 | <lambdabot> | ("Car" ==) . head . words . show |
| 16:59:02 | <kuribas> | ADG1089__: lists are slow, if you want speed, use unboxed vectors instead. |
| 16:59:09 | <geekosaur> | huh, not too terrible |
| 17:00:18 | <carbolymer> | if my application will be run on a single core - does it make sense to remove -threaded and -with-rtsopts=-N from ghc options? |
| 17:00:44 | <mikoto-chan> | geekosaur: What's @? (sorry I don't know what Monads are yet) |
| 17:01:00 | <ADG1089__> | I was able to reach from >10m to 3.19 sec by this unroll thing. does INLINE pragma do same thing for recursive function. Can I specify unrolling depth. Maybe this causes firing map, fold, etc. rules |
| 17:01:05 | <geekosaur> | there are still some advantages to using the threaded runtime, so -threaded -N1 may make sense |
| 17:01:27 | <geekosaur> | mikoto-chan, @pl is a bot command |
| 17:01:41 | <geekosaur> | the bot replied with the point-free version of the lambda |
| 17:01:42 | <mikoto-chan> | Oh nvm in that case I understand what you wrote thx :) |
| 17:01:50 | <mikoto-chan> | That's cool! |
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| 17:03:44 | <carbolymer> | geekosaur: is using threaded runtime causing any runtime overhead? |
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| 17:07:49 | <geekosaur> | the default threaded gc may, so try -qg as a runtime option |
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| 17:08:08 | <geekosaur> | otherwise, the threaded runtime is generally lower overhead iirc |
| 17:08:35 | <carbolymer> | ok, thx |
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| 17:13:05 | <infinisil> | mikoto-chan: Do you have any other data constructors than Car? |
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| 17:14:20 | <infinisil> | I mean, how about just `isCar (Car {}) = True` |
| 17:14:31 | <infinisil> | (parens not needed actually) |
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| 17:15:57 | <mikoto-chan> | infinisil: What's {} in an ADT? |
| 17:16:04 | <mikoto-chan> | I got a solution don't worry |
| 17:16:13 | <geekosaur> | right, there are easier ways to do what you asked but it depends on how far you';re going with it |
| 17:16:28 | <geekosaur> | it's part of a pattern match |
| 17:16:29 | <infinisil> | mikoto-chan: That's just `isCar (Car _ _)` |
| 17:16:36 | <infinisil> | {} can be used instead |
| 17:16:50 | <infinisil> | mikoto-chan: Well, the above Show solution is pretty awful |
| 17:17:04 | <geekosaur> | you're matching it as a record but not inspecting any fields from it, which is valid even if it's not declared as a record |
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| 17:19:11 | <mikoto-chan> | geekosaur: I'm just reading a beginner's book, not writing some cryptographic software for the NSA so it shouldn't be an issue for now |
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| 17:20:49 | <infinisil> | mikoto-chan: Oh, then I _really_ don't think you should use the `show` solution |
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| 17:21:14 | <infinisil> | I mean, you do you |
| 17:21:19 | <ADG1089__> | I wish to measure the running time of my program, but using `cabal run <executable>` already adds some cost. How can I benchmark the executable independently? One way was to do `time ./dist-newstyle/build/x86_64-linux/ghc-8.10.4/<project_name>-<version>/x/<executable>/build/<executable>/<executable>` |
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| 17:21:34 | <infinisil> | But that's just not how Haskell should be coded :) |
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| 17:22:40 | <mikoto-chan> | infinisil: I will get to the real FP part soon don't worry, I barely understood what type theory has to do with ADTs but it will all become clear soon |
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| 17:24:47 | <mikoto-chan> | How do I return the `Car` part of `myCar = Car Manufacturer Price` instead? |
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| 17:25:00 | <mikoto-chan> | Brb in 30 mins |
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| 17:26:06 | <geekosaur> | there's an xy problem in there somewhere, I think |
| 17:26:37 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | ADG1089_: how about running the program as usual and then reading logs? |
| 17:28:03 | <infinisil> | ADG1089__: You can also do a `getCurrentTime` at the start of main, and another at the end, then print the difference (with `diffUTCTime`) |
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| 17:28:50 | <infinisil> | (there's probably something more adequate than getCurrentTime too) |
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| 17:29:13 | <ADG1089__> | infinisil: I found something relevant: http://www.serpentine.com/criterion/tutorial.html |
| 17:29:14 | geekosaur | contemplates Criterion |
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| 17:29:54 | <c_wraith> | criterion is excellent for benchmarking. It's not great for monitoring, like of the "wait, it suddenly doubled how long it takes this program to run" sort. |
| 17:30:23 | <infinisil> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/time-1.11.1.1/docs/Data-Time-Clock-System.html#v:getSystemTime |
| 17:30:29 | <infinisil> | This sounds better |
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| 17:31:17 | <c_wraith> | so... if you want to benchmark, use criterion. If you want monitoring... good logs sound like a good choice. |
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| 17:32:56 | <ADG1089__> | ok so benchmark, hence criterion. |
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| 17:39:27 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | mikoto-chan: sounds like you're asking about using "@" in pattern matching |
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| 17:40:21 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | let car@(Car x y) = myCar |
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| 17:52:38 | <rond_> | Hi! I've got a question about this snippet: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/QJydYVQd Would it work for an infinite list? If so, why? |
| 17:53:22 | <rond_> | Is Haskell smart enough to reason about the function in this case and to realize that once `acc == True` it'd remain as such? |
| 17:53:30 | <monochrom> | I won't. Generally, foldl doesn't. |
| 17:53:40 | <monochrom> | err, s/I/It/ |
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| 17:54:03 | <monochrom> | No, Haskell isn't that smart. |
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| 17:54:45 | <rond_> | So if I were to perform such a thing, it's better to implement it with some recursive function so it would cut off computations appropriately? |
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| 17:55:36 | <rond_> | Basically, a rule of thumb would be that `foldl` doesn't work with infinite inputs? |
| 17:55:37 | <monochrom> | Yes, explicitly code up early exit. |
| 17:56:06 | <rond_> | Is there a type for finite lists? |
| 17:56:12 | <monochrom> | foldr is much better for elem' |
| 17:56:36 | <rond_> | why?\ |
| 17:56:41 | <[exa]> | rond_: even if the list would be finite, there could be an element where (==) could diverge |
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| 17:57:01 | <rond_> | [exa] what do you mean? could you elaborate a bit? |
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| 17:57:49 | <monochrom> | [exa], that one can't be helped no matter what you do. So I would think we don't worry about it at this stage. |
| 17:58:18 | <[exa]> | ah yes you can make the function so that it doesn't call (==)... sorry :] |
| 17:58:29 | <rond_> | I'm lsot.. |
| 17:58:32 | <rond_> | lost* |
| 17:58:40 | <monochrom> | See what you did? |
| 17:59:20 | <[exa]> | rond_: I wanted to point out that there are other dangers than infinite lists (eg. good old `undefined` is one of them) |
| 17:59:43 | <rond_> | I'm learning from LYAH and I haven't stumbled upon `undefined` yet. |
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| 18:01:20 | <monochrom> | Here is a more basic example of why foldr can do early exit, for example. |
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| 18:01:45 | <monochrom> | > foldr (&&) True (repeat False) |
| 18:01:47 | <lambdabot> | False |
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| 18:02:00 | <rond_> | "To put it plainly, if you take an infinite list at some point and you fold it up from the right, you'll eventually reach the beginning of the list. However, if you take an infinite list at a point and you try to fold it up from the left, you'll never reach an end! " I don't understand this sentence - how could `foldr` even start with an infinite |
| 18:02:01 | <rond_> | list? |
| 18:02:01 | <monochrom> | The reason can be seen from hand-running it: |
| 18:02:25 | <rond_> | > foldl (&&) True (repeat False) |
| 18:02:27 | <monochrom> | foldr (&&) True (False : whatever) = False && foldr ... = False. Done. |
| 18:02:31 | <lambdabot> | mueval-core: Time limit exceeded |
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| 18:03:34 | <rond_> | interesting |
| 18:04:09 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | rond_: that sentence is really confusing for a beginner |
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| 18:04:27 | <rond_> | It is. How to read it? |
| 18:04:27 | <monochrom> | foldl uses "tail recursion", that's why it has problems. This is what's wrong with obsessing over "tail recursion". |
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| 18:04:59 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | l and r in foldl and foldr don't mean "from left" and "from right". they mean "left associative" and "right associative" |
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| 18:05:36 | <rond_> | That wasn't obvious at all |
| 18:05:38 | <[exa]> | rond_: you may also try `foldl (&&) True (True:False:True:error "a trap!")` which is "finite". `foldr` survives there too. |
| 18:06:03 | <rond_> | > foldl (&&) True (True:False:True:error "a trap!") |
| 18:06:06 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: a trap! |
| 18:06:09 | <rond_> | > foldr (&&) True (True:False:True:error "a trap!") |
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| 18:06:12 | <lambdabot> | False |
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| 18:06:35 | <rond_> | And the reason is exactly what minoru_shiraeesh said: "left associative" and "right associative" |
| 18:06:40 | <rond_> | super interesting |
| 18:06:52 | <[exa]> | rond_: in the second, case, the evaluated expression reads as `(True&&(False&&(....))`, so the (&&) can short-circuit there |
| 18:07:14 | <infinisil> | Maybe a better explanation for the l and r are that the dependency chain of values flows to the left/right |
| 18:07:30 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | there is an article about folds in haskell: https://wiki.haskell.org/Foldr_Foldl_Foldl%27 |
| 18:07:40 | <[exa]> | rond_: with foldl, the evaluated expression reads `((... && False ) && error "a trap!")`, so the topmost && cannot be ever evaluated to give the final result |
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| 18:08:28 | <[exa]> | rond_: notably, l/r means "direction of adding parentheses", but not at all "order of evaluation" |
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| 18:08:58 | <rond_> | "l/r means "direction of adding parentheses", but not at all "order of evaluation"" - that's confusing. I'd say they're the same in my current state of mind |
| 18:09:12 | <[exa]> | rond_: well, not with lazy evaluation |
| 18:09:34 | <rond_> | Do you think that : https://wiki.haskell.org/Foldr_Foldl_Foldl%27 might enlighten me? |
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| 18:10:50 | <monochrom> | foldl and foldr were invented in non-lazy languages such as Lisp and ML. There, they really were left-to-right and right-to-left, respectively. |
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| 18:11:42 | <monochrom> | What happens is if you copy-paste their code to Haskell, lazy evaluation runs them differently. |
| 18:12:52 | <c_wraith> | foldr is a lot more useful in Haskell, thanks to that. |
| 18:14:33 | <rond_> | I was so content that everything I read is straight-forward and easy... up until this point :D |
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| 18:15:09 | <monochrom> | It can still be straigtforward. Do the algebra. Don't read words. |
| 18:15:16 | <maerwald> | yeah, you always process the list left to right :) |
| 18:15:25 | <monochrom> | <monochrom> foldr (&&) True (False : whatever) = False && foldr ... = False. Done. |
| 18:15:31 | <monochrom> | That nails it. |
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| 18:15:56 | <monochrom> | A formula is worth a thousand pictures. |
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| 18:16:15 | <maerwald> | just because you don't like pictures |
| 18:16:17 | <monochrom> | (Combine it with "a picture is worth a thousand words") |
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| 18:17:02 | <monochrom> | And now, what [exa] got wrong. |
| 18:17:26 | <monochrom> | foo && error "bah" is not always a problem. False && error "bah" is just fine. |
| 18:17:29 | <rond_> | monochrom: Could you expand the example you provided with `foldl` instead of `foldr`? |
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| 18:19:13 | <monochrom> | What goes wrong with that foldl example is: foldl (&&) z (x : error "bah") = foldl (&&) (z && x) (error "bah") = error "bah". There is no foo && error "bah" anywhere. |
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| 18:20:17 | <monochrom> | foldl (&&) True (False : False : ... etc) = foldl (&&) (True && False) (False : ...etc) = you keep doing more, there is no end. |
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| 18:21:16 | <rond_> | Okay, I need to take a break |
| 18:21:28 | <monochrom> | And maerwald, as you can see, it is words that I don't like. |
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| 18:22:03 | <maerwald> | They are rather problematic, indeed. |
| 18:22:05 | <rond_> | I'll write down the examples, probably sleep with them and likely come back again to ask about it again (after reading the article from wiki.haskell as well) |
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| 18:22:44 | <rond_> | Thank you all for your help! |
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| 18:26:37 | <maerwald> | oh, new streamly version |
| 18:26:47 | <maerwald> | the hackage live ticker here isn't working again it seems |
| 18:26:57 | <justsomeguy> | That library looks 'streamly cool :^). |
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| 18:49:38 | <sm[m]> | maerwald: a stock ticker-style display is a nice idea actually. Not so IRC-friendly though |
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| 18:50:15 | <sm[m]> | though you could do it as a widget for element users |
| 18:50:32 | <maerwald> | we already have a hackagebot for that |
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| 18:50:41 | <maerwald> | but sometimes it's gone |
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| 18:51:00 | <sm[m]> | I know, I used to run it |
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| 18:51:27 | <sm[m]> | it's too verbose to keep running in here 24/7 nowadays I think |
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| 18:51:49 | <sm[m]> | people complained even back then |
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| 18:56:00 | <sm[m]> | ..but maybe with some creative visual compression.. |
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| 18:59:14 | <zebrag> | "Every Haskell Functor is an Applicative": is that a well known fact or my being mistaken? If somehow true, it must be many applicatives, if only when sequencing is relevant. |
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| 19:00:05 | <zebrag> | Maybe it is an applicative in a way that isn't useful. |
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| 19:00:37 | <monochrom> | I don't think it's true in the first place. |
| 19:00:44 | <zebrag> | ;) |
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| 19:04:13 | <zebrag> | "MultiFunctor is actually none other than Applicative in disguise". If the category contains every products, then a a multi-argument function can be reduced to a one-argument function, that you can lift. What about that? |
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| 19:05:18 | <zebrag> | (Capriotti & Kaposi) |
| 19:06:29 | <geekosaur> | that one sounds right and describes <$> and <*>, at least if I understand "MultiFunctor" in terms of the second sentence |
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| 19:07:03 | <zebrag> | And Haskell is, to some extent, a variation on Set, so should contain every products. |
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| 19:08:33 | <zebrag> | "It is therefore natural to define a type class for generalised functors, able to lift functions of arbitrary arity" (for definition of multifunctor) |
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| 19:13:35 | <zebrag> | (At least it puts a pin on the question, if not on anything else.) |
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| 19:15:40 | <geekosaur> | also Haskell is not a set, nor a category in the presence of bottom, as I understand it; but there's a proof that it can often be treated as a category out there |
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| 19:20:35 | <maralorn> | I mean there are categories with bottom which Haskell is very close, too. |
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| 19:20:39 | <maralorn> | Scott domains, I think. |
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| 19:52:51 | <mikoto-chan> | minoru_shiraeesh: How do I use the @ in that case? |
| 19:53:12 | <mikoto-chan> | Seems like an advanced feature I shouldn't be using though o.o |
| 19:55:51 | <monochrom> | They probably misunderstood your question, too. |
| 19:55:52 | <carbolymer> | is there any difference If I run `stToIO` inside `mapM` function multiple times, or just once `stToIO $ mapM func collection` ? |
| 19:57:37 | <mikoto-chan> | monochrom: Was that meant for me? I just figured out how it works after talking with the compiler :) |
| 19:57:45 | <monochrom> | Yes. |
| 19:59:48 | <mikoto-chan> | Let me send the source code in that case |
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| 20:03:29 | <mikoto-chan> | https://hatebin.com/arsqzzdqbb |
| 20:03:32 | <mikoto-chan> | Here you go |
| 20:04:22 | <monochrom> | Yikes. That works but is an abuse of show. |
| 20:04:55 | <monochrom> | We would rather: isCar (Car _ _) = True; isCar _ = False |
| 20:05:09 | <mikoto-chan> | Oops. Forgot pattern matching. |
| 20:05:37 | <monochrom> | If you saw other people writing "isCar Car{} = True", the "{}" is about "record syntax". |
| 20:05:40 | <d34df00d> | How would you name a module containing `newtype`s to be used with DerivingVia to derive instances of a certain class? |
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| 20:11:38 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | mikoto-chan: I think I missed the original question and misunderstood the last question, so never mind |
| 20:12:05 | <mikoto-chan> | monochrom: So record syntax is an alternative way to do pattern matching? |
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| 20:12:36 | <monochrom> | No. Record syntax lets you pretend you can use a record system. |
| 20:13:05 | <monochrom> | I think you're better off either looking up "record syntax" or ignoring it. It is a story of its own. |
| 20:14:09 | <mikoto-chan> | monochrom: I found this goldmine called https://devtut.github.io/haskell while looking that up, seems to be a compilation of all Stackoverflow documentation |
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| 20:15:13 | <monochrom> | I have very low expectation of stackoverflow. |
| 20:15:37 | <monochrom> | To be sure, "consciously curated from stackoverflow" can be much better than raw stackoverflow. |
| 20:16:41 | <monochrom> | I have seen my students consulting stackoverflow and getting wrong answers. |
| 20:16:48 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | there's no stackoverflow in haskell |
| 20:16:59 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | haskell doesn't use stack |
| 20:17:28 | <monochrom> | Gosh, that is so wrong on multiple levels. |
| 20:17:32 | <mikoto-chan> | minoru_shiraeesh: there's only ghc user_guide.pdf and index.html ;) |
| 20:17:47 | <mikoto-chan> | monochrom: you teach haskell? That's cool. |
| 20:17:53 | <monochrom> | For starters, at the meta level, we're talking about stackoverflow.com. Sheesh. |
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| 20:19:44 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | just kidding |
| 20:20:06 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | intentionally misinterpreting is fun sometimes |
| 20:20:56 | <mikoto-chan> | monochrom: Any idea how I can construct getManu? Using record syntax will require me to rewrite all my data functions if I'm not wrong |
| 20:21:37 | <monochrom> | getManu (Car m _) = m |
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| 20:21:48 | <monochrom> | And I don't know what you want for the Plane case. |
| 20:21:54 | <mikoto-chan> | Do you happen to be called Christopher Allen? |
| 20:22:02 | <monochrom> | No. |
| 20:22:26 | <mikoto-chan> | He made a lot of references to Freenode in his book ... I wonder if he still hangs around here |
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| 20:22:51 | <monochrom> | But these isFoo and getters have very little value. |
| 20:23:52 | <geekosaur> | not any more he doesn't |
| 20:24:42 | <monochrom> | Suppose you're tasked with "find the price of a given vehicle. for cars, use the price field; for planes, it's 100000". |
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| 20:25:01 | <mikoto-chan> | Yes? |
| 20:25:06 | <monochrom> | You are not going to literally write "if isCar v then getPrice v else 100000" |
| 20:25:35 | <mikoto-chan> | Yeah sorry I picked the book up after a 3 month break bad idea |
| 20:25:41 | <monochrom> | You are going to write: f (Car _ p) = p; f (Plane _) = Price 100000 |
| 20:26:06 | <mikoto-chan> | Pattern matching is a hidden gem isn't it |
| 20:26:38 | <monochrom> | http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/crossroad.xhtml |
| 20:27:14 | <mikoto-chan> | Thanks! |
| 20:27:22 | <mikoto-chan> | Is that your site? |
| 20:27:39 | <monochrom> | Yes. |
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| 20:28:39 | <mikoto-chan> | Is the backend done with Haskell? Really thrilled to build a site with a Haskell backend somewhere in the near future |
| 20:29:04 | <monochrom> | No. Plain html. |
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| 20:32:02 | <MarcelineVQ> | you maverick rogue |
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| 20:33:03 | <monochrom> | Lately, I started writing in markdown and running pandoc for the html. |
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| 20:33:57 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | mikoto-chan: you can build haskell backend with Scotty and Servant, or with IHP if you want to generate markup |
| 20:34:31 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | it's interesting how those work under the hood |
| 20:34:49 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | do they use something like sockets? |
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| 20:36:00 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | or maybe they or built on top of some http library |
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| 20:36:08 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | s/or/are/ |
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| 20:46:46 | <mikoto-chan> | minoru_shiraeesh: I heard of Scotty, might ever use it for some webshop or something |
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| 20:48:21 | <mikoto-chan> | Who is Tom Smeding and why do we use his site as a paste? |
| 20:48:27 | <mikoto-chan> | pastebin* |
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| 20:55:38 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | mikoto-chan: he is a person |
| 20:56:01 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | he frequents this channel |
| 20:56:33 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | (not sure if the word "frequent" can be used like that) |
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| 20:57:01 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | he visits this channel |
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| 21:02:04 | <SoF> | is there a way to define point-free functions in a way like "f = _ + _ (5 * _)" and then haskell automatically figures out the first argument goes into the first _, second arg into the second _, etc? |
| 21:02:26 | <SoF> | (as opposed to "f a b c = a + b (5 * c)" |
| 21:02:59 | <geekosaur> | minoru_shiraeesh, it can |
| 21:03:44 | <geekosaur> | SoF, no |
| 21:03:54 | <SoF> | ok ty |
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| 21:06:38 | <mikoto-chan> | minoru_shiraeesh: But not a member of Freenode? |
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| 21:09:46 | <geekosaur> | who, tomsmeding? he's just not here today |
| 21:10:04 | <geekosaur> | it is the weekend, after all |
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| 21:12:17 | <geekosaur> | (well, present in channel but busy/away) |
| 21:14:26 | <gentauro> | I seem to not get why this project is prefixed with `safe` -> https://github.com/NorfairKing/safe-coloured-text |
| 21:14:30 | <gentauro> | how is it safe? |
| 21:15:05 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | mikoto-chan: what do you mean "not a member of Freenode"? like, someone who is only reading logs and doesn't participate? |
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| 21:17:52 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | "intentionally misinterpreting is fun sometimes" - and in post-modern world there are only misinterpretations, even author's interpretation is a misinterpretation |
| 21:18:37 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | or is that meta-modern? |
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| 21:31:24 | <monochrom> | gentauro: Probably just "no partial functions". |
| 21:31:54 | <monochrom> | Yes, this community has pretty bent ideas of what safety and unsafety mean. |
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| 21:43:40 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | mikoto-chan: If you don't want to use his paste, then don't! I like p.bsd-unix.net and 0bin.net |
| 21:44:21 | <monochrom> | Are you people, like, reading way too much subtext into a simple question where there is no subtext? |
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| 21:49:47 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | monochrom: lol, idk why but it's funny that you asked that question. Sometimes people act weird, right? |
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| 21:50:21 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | regarding subtext: in post-modern you can create your own subtext |
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| 21:52:32 | <monochrom> | OK, I will ask the blunt and rude question. |
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| 21:52:50 | <monochrom> | What the f**king hell is postmodernism doing in #haskell? |
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| 21:56:17 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | it's just an off-topic conversation in the channel |
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| 21:57:54 | <DigitalKiwi> | it's ok no ops are on |
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| 22:02:21 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | I mean it's not like there are several pages of postmodernism discussion |
| 22:02:52 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | and this channel is ok with couple off-topic messages here and there |
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| 22:06:15 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | so let's attribute the rude question to monochrom's rudeness that we should be patient about, not to the channel as a whole |
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| 22:12:49 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | IDK wtf postmodernism is and there wasn't a good tldr online about it... Anyway, Monochrom's been quite nice to me in the past, I think that you should remain at least moderately on-topic, or else shut your trap. |
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| 22:13:46 | <MarcelineVQ> | don't sweat the small stuff, as they say :> |
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| 22:15:03 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | heck-to-the-gnom: do you realize that your message is off-topic itself? lol |
| 22:15:41 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | which proves my point that the channel is ok with couple of off-topic messages here and there |
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| 22:16:48 | <monochrom> | That was not my point. |
| 22:17:15 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Hmm, so one can't defend on-topicness without getting off topic. Such a shameful way of thinking. And an incredibly foolish way to justify your poor decisions. |
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| 22:38:52 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | heck-to-the-gnom: if you're so interested in me and my decisions, you could apply the principle you just stated and pm me |
| 22:40:59 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | I think the conclusion is that we should be patient and careful when we answer questions and when we ask questions too |
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| 22:44:38 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Hmm, looks like we disagree on the moral of this situation. Perhaps we should A. stay on topic, and B. not justify things when we're called out on them, and rather take responsibility. |
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| 22:56:51 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | ok, I'm gonna stop feeding the troll |
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| 22:59:57 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | -_-... I'll just let that slide... For the sake of ending the argument. |
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| 23:32:49 | <koz_> | I have a whole bunch of HKD records which all derive Generic. I need to write a function with a signature like (Generic rec) => rec Identity -> rec Maybe -> Bool, which would compare those HKDs field by field. Nothings match anything, Justs only match the value inside the Just. |
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| 23:33:02 | <koz_> | I assume this is _doable_ with Generic, but I'm not sure how to even begin to write it. |
| 23:33:12 | <koz_> | Does someone have some resource(s) they could point me to? |
| 23:33:27 | <koz_> | (before the inevitable 'y so complicated' - I didn't pick the types or the problem) |
| 23:33:43 | <koz_> | s/HKDs/HKD records/ |
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| 23:53:43 | <zebrag> | > let sep = " ,." in "hello, bye, bye" & (groupBy (\x y -> (not $ elem x sep) && (not $ elem y sep))) & filter (\xs -> (\x -> not $ elem x sep) <$> xs & and) & sort & group & sortOn length & reverse & head |
| 23:53:45 | <lambdabot> | ["bye","bye"] |
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| 23:59:38 | <koz_> | Never mind, found another way. |
| 23:59:43 | <koz_> | (still believe it's doable) |
All times are in UTC on 2021-03-07.