Logs on 2021-03-08 (freenode/#haskell)
| 00:00:00 | <MarcelineVQ> | zebrag: what you up to there? |
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| 00:00:09 | <zebrag> | nothing |
| 00:00:18 | <koz_> | Nothing :: Maybe Action |
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| 00:01:01 | <zebrag> | word with higher frequency |
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| 00:03:27 | <infinisil> | koz_: I'd use the higher-kinded applicative instance for that |
| 00:04:10 | <infinisil> | Libraries like barbies or rank2classes can derive those for you (barbies with Generics, rank2classes with TH) |
| 00:04:33 | <qih> | koz_: o/ How did the w/e play out for you? |
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| 00:04:38 | <infinisil> | Then you could use https://hackage.haskell.org/package/barbies-2.0.2.0/docs/Data-Functor-Barbie.html#v:bzipWith |
| 00:04:50 | <koz_> | qih: It was fun for the second day. |
| 00:04:52 | qih | finally has a functional DEV machine now 8-) |
| 00:04:57 | <qih> | koz_: ? |
| 00:05:03 | <koz_> | infinisil: Thanks! I might look into that in case it's easier. |
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| 00:05:23 | <koz_> | qih: You asked how the weekend played out for me. I claim it was fun for the second day. |
| 00:06:17 | <qih> | Oh right, my bad. We had great weather on the S/I, got out and about. |
| 00:07:21 | <glguy> | koz_, GHC.Generics isn't particularly suited to this |
| 00:07:45 | <koz_> | glguy: I imagine it'd be awkward. It's moot now anyway because I found a different route to achieve what I want. |
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| 00:14:03 | <infinisil> | koz_: Oh actually if you want to use generics for that, this blog post does something very similar: https://reasonablypolymorphic.com/blog/higher-kinded-data/ |
| 00:14:14 | <koz_> | Figured Sandy might. :P |
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| 00:42:10 | <cookielady> | hello, really new around. may i get some hints and tips |
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| 00:43:36 | <cookielady> | hey |
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| 00:43:52 | <cookielady> | anyone there? |
| 00:45:05 | <__minoru__shirae> | cookielady: irc is not so instant as other messengers |
| 00:45:37 | <__minoru__shirae> | you don't have to make sure that anyone is online to ask a question |
| 00:45:38 | <cookielady> | thanks for a reponse. right , then how it works though |
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| 00:46:34 | <qih> | cookielady: Greetings. Probably a better way to start being new, is put forward your specific question with a reasonable degree of system information, and what you are trying to do, alternately read this => |
| 00:46:38 | <qih> | cookielady: http://jeff.jones.be/blog/2009/03/17/how-to-ask-for-help-on-irc/ |
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| 00:48:25 | <__minoru__shirae> | cookielady: just ask and then see if someone answers right away or maybe later |
| 00:49:02 | <qih> | What __minoru__shirae said ... |
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| 00:51:35 | <cookielady> | alright thank you. |
| 00:53:29 | <cookielady> | well then for now i wanna get basic skills on the hacking system and system programs |
| 00:54:02 | <cookielady> | i am trying to register on IRC aswell |
| 00:54:06 | <SoF> | in haskell? |
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| 00:54:37 | <cookielady> | well i just found haskell as i was lookin on IRC |
| 00:54:58 | <cookielady> | and tried to get in here to see if any luck on help |
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| 01:02:32 | <qih> | Well tbh the people in this room are scattered all across the Planet, so for some it is still Sunday/Evening, others on a Monday are working etc ... IRC is not an instant messaging as __minoru__shirae however if you are prepared to ask & wait, some of the talented peeps here are likely to help you when/if they can. |
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| 01:03:27 | <qih> | Register #1 https://howchoo.com/internet/register-nickname-freenode |
| 01:03:35 | <qih> | Register #2 https://freenode.net/kb/answer/registration |
| 01:04:15 | qih | runs back to Kernel muppetry 8-) |
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| 01:21:20 | <robweb> | Hi. I have this problem: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/2kKay44r Please help if you can. Thank you. |
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| 01:23:14 | <c_wraith> | why do you think it should have a Just? |
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| 01:24:26 | <monochrom> | You need a case analysis on the outcome of the recursive call "flipMaybe xs". |
| 01:24:44 | <xsperry> | > sequence [Just 1, Just 2, Just 3] |
| 01:24:46 | <lambdabot> | Just [1,2,3] |
| 01:24:58 | <monochrom> | Start with: case flipMaybe xs of Nothing -> ??? ; Just ys -> ??? |
| 01:25:10 | <monochrom> | With access to ys, it is now clear what to do. |
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| 01:33:36 | <robweb> | Hi. I have this problem: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/2kKay44r Please help if you can. Thank you. |
| 01:34:28 | <monochrom> | <monochrom> You need a case analysis on the outcome of the recursive call "flipMaybe xs". |
| 01:34:34 | <monochrom> | <monochrom> Start with: case flipMaybe xs of Nothing -> ??? ; Just ys -> ??? |
| 01:34:34 | <monochrom> | <monochrom> With access to ys, it is now clear what to do. |
| 01:35:47 | <robweb> | monochrom: OK, Ill try that. Thank you! |
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| 02:08:38 | <sm[m]> | is there an easy way to download the package tarballs with cabal or stack ? Without unpacking them as unpack does |
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| 02:14:39 | <monochrom> | "cabal fetch --no-dependencies unordered-containers" then look under ~/.cabal/packages/hackage.haskell.org/unordered-containers/ |
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| 02:19:17 | <sm[m]> | thanks! |
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| 02:23:36 | <hyiltiz-M> | > :t sequence |
| 02:23:38 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘:’ |
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| 02:24:03 | <hyiltiz-M> | > t sequence |
| 02:24:06 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 02:24:06 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match expected type ‘(t0 (m0 a0) -> m0 (t0 a0)) -> t’ |
| 02:24:06 | <lambdabot> | with actual type ‘Expr’ |
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| 02:24:36 | <hyiltiz-M> | > :type sequence |
| 02:24:38 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘:’ |
| 02:24:53 | <hyiltiz-M> | :type sequence |
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| 02:26:52 | <infinisil> | :t sequence |
| 02:26:54 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable t, Monad m) => t (m a) -> m (t a) |
| 02:28:00 | <hyiltiz-M> | Yeah thx I sat up and walked to my laptop instead |
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| 03:33:01 | <lagooned> | is hoogle down? |
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| 03:38:45 | <zebrag> | @hoogle [a] -> [a] |
| 03:38:46 | <lambdabot> | Prelude tail :: [a] -> [a] |
| 03:38:46 | <lambdabot> | Prelude init :: [a] -> [a] |
| 03:38:46 | <lambdabot> | Prelude reverse :: [a] -> [a] |
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| 03:39:40 | <zebrag> | @pl \xs n -> take n xs |
| 03:39:41 | <lambdabot> | flip take |
| 03:40:00 | <zebrag> | @djinn (a, b) -> c -> (b, c) |
| 03:40:00 | <lambdabot> | f (_, a) b = (a, b) |
| 03:41:15 | <zebrag> | https://wiki.haskell.org/Lambdabot |
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| 03:42:03 | <lagooned> | back up now, was 502ing like 5 min ago |
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| 04:59:52 | <gentauro> | 22:31 < monochrom> Yes, this community has pretty bent ideas of what safety and unsafety mean. |
| 05:00:13 | <gentauro> | monochrom: in my book, safe, means that you can `tag` your library with `Safe Haskell` |
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| 05:00:30 | <gentauro> | it's like when you ready "pure JavaScript" |
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| 05:01:18 | <gentauro> | I think that kind of terminology is misleading/misguiding |
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| 05:01:51 | <gentauro> | s/ready/read/ |
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| 05:22:25 | <d34df00d> | I had a funny bug yesterday that cost me two hours to debug, because a library used unsafePerformIO under the hood. |
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| 05:22:30 | <d34df00d> | So I am all for safety, whatever that means. |
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| 05:40:52 | <siraben> | d34df00d: why did they use unsafePerformIO? |
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| 05:45:52 | <gentauro> | siraben: corner-cutting? |
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| 05:53:34 | <monochrom> | d34df00d: Do you know our context? We were not against the name "unsafePerformIO". |
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| 06:30:33 | <mniip> | 2 hours that's like nothing |
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| 08:11:50 | <tomsmeding> | hyiltiz-M: you can also private-message with lambdabot ;) |
| 08:12:00 | <Uniaika> | heya tomsmeding :) |
| 08:12:03 | <Uniaika> | how are you? |
| 08:12:04 | <tomsmeding> | o/ |
| 08:12:13 | <hyiltiz> | yeah should've odne that; much more polite than accidental spam |
| 08:12:14 | <tomsmeding> | doing well, programming haskell :) |
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| 08:37:33 | <arrowsvc_> | Before cabal-install 3.4 I was able to unpack a dependency library right into my project's root and `cabal new-build` was picking it up. |
| 08:37:43 | <arrowsvc_> | This doesn't seem to be the case anymore with 3.4 |
| 08:38:04 | <arrowsvc_> | Was this feature removed or it is hidden behind some flag? |
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| 08:38:22 | <Uniaika> | arrowsvc_: what command exactly are you typing? |
| 08:38:34 | <arrowsvc_> | cabal new-build |
| 08:38:49 | <Uniaika> | heya coot, sorry for the latency on your Haddock PR, we had to make a release yesterday |
| 08:38:55 | <Uniaika> | arrowsvc_: before that? |
| 08:39:16 | <Uniaika> | arrowsvc_: you don't use `cabal unpack`? |
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| 08:39:54 | <arrowsvc_> | Before that I fetch vector-0.12.2.0.tar.gz manually and unpack it into my project's dir. |
| 08:40:26 | <arrowsvc_> | Nope, I have to use `fetch` utility, but this shouldn't matter. |
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| 08:41:21 | <Uniaika> | arrowsvc_: what's the URL you're using for vector? |
| 08:42:36 | <arrowsvc_> | Hackage one: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector-0.12.2.0/vector-0.12.2.0.tar.gz |
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| 08:48:56 | <arrowsvc_> | Hmmm, I now tried producing this using cabal get and it worked. |
| 08:49:29 | <arrowsvc_> | I also did not wipe ~/.cabal before running `cabal new-build` as I do in my case. |
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| 09:00:20 | <arrowsvc_> | -_\ wait, I used old cabal-install |
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| 09:08:49 | <arrowsvc_> | Aha. So the problem is with wiping ~/.cabal |
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| 09:34:17 | <Gurkenglas> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.1.0/docs/GHC-Generics.html#g:12 <- "Note that this encoding strategy may not be reliable across different versions of GHC." oh man so in order to translate between save files for versions compiled with different versions of ghc you'd need to write an entirely separate de&serializer? :S |
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| 09:39:53 | <Gurkenglas> | "But the type argument is never being used. This may be changed at some point in the future." is obsolete with "What's different is that we now use Par1 to refer to the parameter" right? |
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| 09:46:05 | <merijn> | Gurkenglas: Repeat my mantra with me |
| 09:46:27 | <merijn> | Gurkenglas: "If you care about future stability, you *always* have to write explicit (de)serialisers" |
| 09:47:06 | <merijn> | Gurkenglas: The solution is to not use generics for (de)serialisation at all, but use something deterministic, so that "which GHC version was used" becomes irrelevant |
| 09:48:01 | <Gurkenglas> | merijn, I don't disagree, but why is there a serialization tutorial on GHC.Generics? |
| 09:48:40 | <merijn> | The simplest example the person writing it could think off that shows all features? |
| 09:48:42 | <Gurkenglas> | (for people who use it for communication between two programs that are always compiled immediately before rather than savefiles, I suppose) |
| 09:49:52 | <merijn> | Gurkenglas: Generic is super confusing without an example and "serialising some stuff" is an easy/obvious answer anyone understands |
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| 09:50:01 | <linux_party> | iLinux OS rocks! https://ilinuxos.com/screenshots.html |
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| 09:50:53 | <Gurkenglas> | I have a dream, that every update of a thing automatically comes with an updater for anything that uses it |
| 09:51:19 | <merijn> | Gurkenglas: And it can be convenient, binary has generic support, so you can do "deriving (Generic); instance Binary Foo" to get (de)serialisation. It's completely not robust and ultra-hacky, but nice for quick one-off scripts |
| 09:51:39 | <merijn> | Gurkenglas: Custom parsers + version numbers at the start of all your data ;) |
| 09:51:41 | <merijn> | Also |
| 09:51:45 | <merijn> | @hackage safe-copy |
| 09:51:45 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/safe-copy |
| 09:51:53 | <merijn> | wait |
| 09:51:55 | <merijn> | Wrong name? |
| 09:52:11 | <merijn> | @hackage safecopy |
| 09:52:11 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/safecopy |
| 09:52:52 | <merijn> | Although I'd probably handle that stuff myself with explicit Get/Put from binary and version numbers |
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| 10:14:08 | <fendor> | can I tell ghcup to not use /tmp for downloading ghc artefacts? Seems like -c doesn't do anything |
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| 10:17:16 | <cookielady> | heya all what programs do you guys use? I am strating out and found the CTF . anyone uses it? |
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| 10:27:06 | <tomsmeding> | fendor: you may have success by setting the TMPDIR environment variable to a path you like |
| 10:27:23 | <tomsmeding> | cookielady: what do you mean by CTF? |
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| 10:28:49 | <fendor> | tomsmeding, yep, that did it |
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| 10:29:37 | <tomsmeding> | fendor: that's a sort-of convention that many CLI programs use, by virtue of using mktemp(1) |
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| 10:30:30 | <fendor> | tomsmeding, indeed, but the documentation fpr the -c option confused me: "-c,--cache Cache downloads in ~/.ghcup/cache (default: disabled)" |
| 10:30:41 | <fendor> | So I would have figured it should work, too |
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| 10:30:58 | <fendor> | Ah I see |
| 10:31:00 | <fendor> | it does work |
| 10:31:10 | <fendor> | but the building still happens in TMPDIR |
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| 10:31:17 | <tomsmeding> | fendor: ah, that's probably cache _after_ download completed, for successive invocations of ghcup; it perhaps still extracts in TMPDIR |
| 10:31:19 | <tomsmeding> | yes that |
| 10:34:58 | <kuribas> | Gurkenglas: no proper serializer should depend on the nesting order of the Generics tree. |
| 10:36:19 | <cookielady> | well how do you say i shiuld start with? CTF is the capture the flag . |
| 10:36:26 | <cookielady> | should* |
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| 10:43:43 | <tomsmeding> | cookielady: capture-the-flag challenges for haskell? I haven't seen those yet :p |
| 10:44:22 | <tomsmeding> | do you have other programming experience? or are you starting out in general? |
| 10:44:27 | <Philonous> | hlint keeps complaining that I should replace »case bool-expression of True -> this; False -> that« with if-then-else. Am I the only one who prefers case in most situations except short inline expressions? |
| 10:45:07 | <cookielady> | i use to have but it was like more 10 years ago.. i think i remember nthing |
| 10:45:15 | <cookielady> | but really need to start up haha |
| 10:45:25 | <cookielady> | no not for haskell haha |
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| 10:52:24 | <tomsmeding> | Philonous: there are more hlint rules that I subjectively disagree with :p |
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| 10:53:01 | <cookielady> | am trying to register but it says that me email is not valid , tried with 2 dif already |
| 10:53:17 | <tomsmeding> | cookielady: if you like maths-like exercises, try Project Euler |
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| 10:53:40 | <tomsmeding> | if you like puzzle-like problems, try doing Advent of Code |
| 10:53:58 | <tomsmeding> | otherwise decide that you want to build something, and then try building it :p |
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| 10:54:39 | <cookielady> | comerijn: tomsmeding thank youu |
| 10:55:17 | <tomsmeding> | different people may have different advice :) |
| 10:56:06 | <Philonous> | I always felt that Project Euler didn't play particulalry well into the strengths of Haskell |
| 10:56:31 | <cookielady> | ty a lot . will do. am going to work now . will try as soon as i return home. |
| 10:56:46 | <cookielady> | hope to find you guys ariund when back |
| 10:56:50 | <cookielady> | around* |
| 10:56:57 | <tomsmeding> | cookielady: good luck :) |
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| 11:00:23 | <__monty__> | I like the more recent coding challenge platforms like codewars.com, they have interesting haskell challenges, implementing variadic functions or (ab)using the type system as a theorem prover, for example. |
| 11:01:45 | <Philonous> | That sounds like fun, except it doesn't teach you have to use Haskell for anything practical. |
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| 11:09:26 | <__monty__> | It's not as if Project Euler does. |
| 11:09:56 | <__monty__> | I was suggesting it as an alternative to venerable challenge sites. |
| 11:10:33 | <__monty__> | Some people don't care about practical stuff, just about learning something new. |
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| 11:34:55 | <shad0w_> | hi all |
| 11:35:02 | <shad0w_> | `readNumber txt = |
| 11:35:02 | <shad0w_> | case decimal txt of |
| 11:35:03 | <shad0w_> | Right (n, rest) | T.null rest -> pure n` |
| 11:35:20 | <shad0w_> | what is this thing where you pattern match on the result of the applied function called? |
| 11:35:39 | <shad0w_> | is it an extension ? |
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| 11:43:41 | <xsperry> | just pattern matching. it doesn't have a separate name. it is part of standard haskell |
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| 11:47:54 | <kuribas> | standard only supports boolean guards. |
| 11:48:12 | <kuribas> | f | someTest "foo" = ... |
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| 11:49:10 | <kuribas> | with pattern guards you can match on anything: addLookup env var1 var2 | Just val1 <- lookup env var1 |
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| 11:49:42 | <kuribas> | ah, it's part of the haskell 2010 standard https://wiki.haskell.org/Pattern_guard |
| 11:52:50 | <Philonous> | The name shad0w_ was looking for is "guard" in any case |
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| 11:53:25 | <shad0w_> | but guards have a `=` syntax ? |
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| 11:53:39 | <shad0w_> | Philonous: ^ |
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| 11:55:19 | <Philonous> | shad0w_, No, the »=« is part of the function definition syntax, if you use them in case expression it's a »->« because that's what case wants |
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| 11:55:44 | <shad0w_> | ah i see. |
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| 11:56:04 | <shad0w_> | Philonous: 1006THANKS0610 |
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| 11:56:17 | <Philonous> | You mean something like »foo x | x > 5 = 3«, right ? |
| 11:56:51 | <maerwald> | fendor: yes you can set TMPDIR |
| 11:57:02 | <fendor> | maerwald, yep, did that and it worked, thanks! |
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| 12:06:36 | <shad0w_> | 06Philonous: yes |
| 12:06:36 | <shad0w_> | 06 |
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| 12:58:02 | <chisui> | Hey, is there an alternative to `modifyIORef'` where the modifying function returns an `IO a`? |
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| 13:02:16 | <merijn> | chisui: That'd lead to race conditions, though |
| 13:02:32 | <merijn> | chisui: I mean you can just "readIORef, do stuff, writeIORef" |
| 13:02:39 | <lemmih> | chisui: No but you can write it yourself. It cannot be atomic, though. |
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| 13:03:32 | <chisui> | lemmih: what if I need somthing that is atomic? |
| 13:03:42 | <merijn> | chisui: "don't use IORef" |
| 13:03:45 | <lemmih> | chisui: Use an MVar. |
| 13:03:49 | <merijn> | Or TVar |
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| 13:04:05 | <chisui> | Ah, Thanks lemmih, merjin |
| 13:04:18 | <chisui> | *merijn |
| 13:04:59 | <hpc> | and to answer the natural next question, MVar/TVar depends on if you want to lock or retry when threads are going after the same resource |
| 13:05:08 | <hpc> | MVar locks, TVar uses transactions |
| 13:06:02 | <merijn> | tbh, TVar locks too, but differently ;) |
| 13:06:07 | <hpc> | personally, whenever i need to use an IORef i automatically use MVar instead |
| 13:06:10 | <hpc> | heh |
| 13:06:31 | <hpc> | even in single-threaded applications |
| 13:06:38 | <merijn> | Yeah, IORef's are risky business |
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| 13:07:06 | <chisui> | Does IORef have any significant performance advantage above MVar? |
| 13:07:09 | <merijn> | hpc: No clue, but tbh you shouldn't really use the single threaded runtime anyway, too many broken corner cases |
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| 13:07:16 | <merijn> | chisui: Define significant |
| 13:07:33 | <merijn> | What are you doing and why do you think the MVar overhead might be a bottle neck? |
| 13:07:40 | <hpc> | merijn: oh, i don't mean the single-threaded RTS, i just mean when i know my code doesn't have more than one thread |
| 13:07:59 | <merijn> | hpc: The multi-threaded RTS has to lock anyway, no? |
| 13:08:14 | <merijn> | hpc: Or do you expect it to detect and special case the single thread scenario? |
| 13:08:30 | <chisui> | merijn I writing logic solver and the Cells are currently IORefs |
| 13:08:58 | <hpc> | maybe you're misparsing what i wrote? "even when my code doesn't use threads, i use MVar instead of IORef" |
| 13:09:17 | <hpc> | (not "TVar locks too even in single-threaded applications") |
| 13:09:22 | <merijn> | hpc: Ah! |
| 13:09:49 | <hpc> | clearly irc needs threaded conversations :P |
| 13:10:14 | <merijn> | ugh, no |
| 13:11:28 | <jacks2> | what about atomicModifyIORef? |
| 13:11:43 | <merijn> | jacks2: That doesn't allow IO modification |
| 13:11:56 | <jacks2> | what do you mean? |
| 13:12:03 | <jacks2> | :t atomicModifyIORef |
| 13:12:05 | <lambdabot> | error: Variable not in scope: atomicModifyIORef |
| 13:12:14 | <jacks2> | atomicModifyIORef :: IORef a -> (a -> (a, b)) -> IO b |
| 13:12:28 | <merijn> | jacks2: The original question was how to use 'a -> IO a' for modifyIORef |
| 13:12:31 | <hpc> | you have the power of (a -> a) |
| 13:12:35 | <merijn> | Rather theen "a -> a" |
| 13:13:23 | <jacks2> | so how does STM help here? you can't use IO in STM transaction either |
| 13:15:17 | <chisui> | The long and short is, I only want to modify a Ref if it satisfies a certain condition. The modification requires the value of other References though. I don't need transactions |
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| 13:16:37 | <merijn> | jacks2: The answer was "you can't use IORef" |
| 13:16:49 | <merijn> | jacks2: So use TVar/MVar instead of IORef |
| 13:17:00 | <merijn> | chisui: Sounds like you do |
| 13:17:27 | <chisui> | merijn: how so? |
| 13:18:04 | <merijn> | You said you needed something atomic for updating IORefs |
| 13:18:28 | <merijn> | If your atomic thing depends on the value of 1 or more other references, the only way to do that atomically is via transactions |
| 13:19:06 | <jacks2> | merijn, right, but modifyTVar also accepts (a -> a). modifyMVar accepts (a -> IO a), if that is really needed |
| 13:19:18 | <merijn> | jacks2: You don't use modifyTVar |
| 13:19:28 | <merijn> | jacks2: You can "read, compute, write" a TVar atomically |
| 13:19:38 | <merijn> | Like, that's the entire point of STM :p |
| 13:20:24 | <chisui> | merijn: It's a propagator network. It's ok if the values from other Cells are old but the value of the current one has to be current. |
| 13:20:51 | <chisui> | *the value of the one being modified has to be current |
| 13:21:06 | <jacks2> | merijn, we obviously some trouble communicating what me mean in here. you said " <merijn> jacks2: The original question was how to use 'a -> IO a' for modifyIORef" "<merijn> Rather theen "a -> a"" |
| 13:21:18 | <jacks2> | TVar doesn't let you do that, just like IORef doesn't |
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| 13:21:35 | <jacks2> | so how is it an improvement? |
| 13:21:53 | <merijn> | jacks2: Both me and Lemmih remarked that you can do "read, compute, write" with IORef, but it is not atomic |
| 13:22:07 | <merijn> | The follow up was "i need atomic", followed by "then you need TVar" |
| 13:22:30 | <jacks2> | how can you do that atomically with TVar, when you can't use IO in transaction? |
| 13:22:31 | <merijn> | jacks2: You seem overfocussed on "modify<X>Var" over "what type do you need for the desired semantics" |
| 13:23:00 | <merijn> | Anyway, this is slowly turning in an entire orthogonal discussion from chisui's problem |
| 13:23:29 | <merijn> | chisui: But then you can easily solve things, no? |
| 13:24:00 | <merijn> | chisui: construct "IO a" that reads all old cells, then "atomicModifyIORef" the current cell based on the (possibly) old reads from old cells |
| 13:24:02 | <chisui> | My question is answered :D I'll use MVars and will be done with it |
| 13:24:19 | <jacks2> | merijn, let me put this as plainly as possible, what does TVar offer over atomicModifyIORef in this situation? absolutely nothing |
| 13:24:43 | <merijn> | chisui: "readOldCells :: IO Values" "updateFun :: Values -> (Values, ())" |
| 13:24:54 | <merijn> | jacks2: The ability to read other references atomically during an update |
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| 13:25:17 | <jacks2> | "other references" wasn't part of the question |
| 13:25:38 | <chisui> | merijn: this way I would have to evaluate `readOldCells` regardless of whether or not I need to actually update the current cell through |
| 13:26:00 | <merijn> | chisui: eh, "updateFun :: Values -> Foo -> (Foo, ())" and then "readOldCells >>= \v -> atomicModifyIORef (updateFun v)" |
| 13:27:02 | <chisui> | merijn: That would still require readOldCells to always be executed. |
| 13:27:14 | <merijn> | jacks2: So? It was mentioned later. People are not robots and ask wrong, incomplete questions and expect people to extrapolate from context, rather than acting like genies and answering questions "as asked", rahter then "as intended" |
| 13:27:35 | <merijn> | chisui: tbh, the atomic STM approach is probably cheaper than MVar if you don't expect many conflicting updates to the same cells |
| 13:28:03 | <merijn> | chisui: STM uses optimistic locking so uncontested updates have almost no overhead |
| 13:28:27 | <merijn> | chisui: But that depends on many conflicting updates you expect to happen |
| 13:28:30 | <chisui> | merijn: I actually expect conflicting updates, since I write from many threads. |
| 13:28:42 | <merijn> | chisui: Yeah, but how frequently? :p |
| 13:28:57 | <merijn> | Like, 100% of your updates, 50% of your updates, or 10% of them ;) |
| 13:31:02 | <merijn> | chisui: Basically, STM assumes it will succeed, run a computation and at the end it will check nothing has happened "in between". So if 2 threads are trying to update the same TVar, one will win, the other will rollback and "redo" the computation. The cost of that depends on how frequently your concurrent updates happen to conflict. |
| 13:31:05 | <chisui> | The values of the cells are semilattices (like Set) and they collect facts. These facts are propagated through the entire network all the time, since it's the main form of communication in the system |
| 13:32:13 | <chisui> | I'll have to measure what the actual frequency is. |
| 13:33:00 | <merijn> | chisui: Gut feeling is ok. Suppose you have thousands of cells and ten threads, if those threads are somewhat randomly updating cells, conflicts should be fairly rare, for example |
| 13:33:30 | <merijn> | chisui: The optimistic locking is *considerably* faster then MVars in the non-conflicting case, so you can win quite a bit |
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| 13:37:17 | <chisui> | merijn: That sounds reasonable. I may have many `forkIO` threads writing, but the actual number of threads woll be low |
| 13:37:19 | <chisui> | *will |
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| 13:38:28 | <merijn> | chisui: So unless you expect to have like 10s of threads repeatedly racing on one cell it'll probably be better to go straight to STM and skip MVar |
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| 13:41:45 | <chisui> | Thank you merijn |
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| 14:28:06 | <Gurkenglas> | A total function is one that maps total inputs to total outputs (nonfunctions are total if there are no undefineds). newtype Bot = Bot { unBot :: Bot -> Bool }. What Bots are total? There may be multiple fixed points, and no obvious reason for there to be a least or greatest one. But nice = Bot $ const True is total. So is paladin = Bot $ \x -> unBot x nice. So is ditto = Bot (\x -> unBot x x): If x is total, applying it to itself will be |
| 14:28:06 | <Gurkenglas> | total. But wait: unBot ditto ditto diverges, so it can't be total! Therefore there is no fixed point. But I was still able to meaningfully call paladin total. Is there a theory that lets me talk about these meaningful statements? |
| 14:28:49 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | How do I type a function to deal with both `Maybe a` and `a`? |
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| 14:29:51 | <jacks2> | accept a, use fmap to use it with Maybe a |
| 14:29:57 | <geekosaur> | heck-to-the-gnom, they're different types, you can't treat them as the same (aside from the same way `id` does) |
| 14:30:02 | <merijn> | heck-to-the-gnom: You don't |
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| 14:30:12 | <Gurkenglas> | heck-to-the-gnom, do you want a way to add a default result to a function that takes a, so it can handle Maybe a? |
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| 14:31:08 | <pjb> | heck-to-the-gnom: data Both a = Maybe a | Only a ; foo :: Both a -> a |
| 14:31:48 | <pjb> | Of course, there's not much difference between Just a and Only a… |
| 14:31:58 | <Gurkenglas> | > maybe 3 (+1) (Just 10) |
| 14:32:00 | <lambdabot> | 11 |
| 14:32:02 | <Gurkenglas> | > maybe 3 (+1) Nothing |
| 14:32:03 | <lambdabot> | 3 |
| 14:32:04 | <Gurkenglas> | Is this what you want? |
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| 14:40:12 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Upon looking at my errors closer, I think what I actually want is how to convert to Maybe. Gurkenglas, I think that's what I want. Why's there a +1 in there? |
| 14:40:40 | <geekosaur> | it's an example |
| 14:41:11 | <geekosaur> | it's showing how to perform some operation (here, (+1)) "through" a Maybe to the value contained within, if any |
| 14:41:16 | <jacks2> | heck-to-the-gnom, what's the big picture |
| 14:42:03 | heck-to-the-gnom | uploaded an image: image.png (31KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/vJiaIdLaVNmAhNjnloqEapIL/image.png > |
| 14:42:07 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | jacks2 ^ |
| 14:43:30 | <dolio> | Gurkenglas: The place that 'total' and 'partial' vocabulary come from don't allow you to define a type like that, so I'm not sure it makes sense to expect it to hold up in that situation. |
| 14:44:13 | <Gurkenglas> | dolio, then imagine i said "cool" instead of "total" |
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| 14:44:52 | <dolio> | Okay, then your specification of 'cool' is incoherent. |
| 14:46:46 | <dolio> | Or the application, I guess. |
| 14:48:43 | <dolio> | I guess maybe you could pin the flaw in your reasoning on thinking that 'unbot' is total. |
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| 14:49:20 | <dolio> | What happens if you classify `unBot` as non-total? |
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| 14:51:56 | <dolio> | Anyhow, negative types are pretty well known to allow you to write paradox type stuff. |
| 14:52:19 | <dolio> | And they only have semantics in stuff like domains and general recursion. |
| 14:53:24 | <dolio> | Basically because assuming that one exists lets you write some sort of general recursion. In this case it would give you general recursion on Bool. |
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| 14:55:40 | <dolio> | Domain theory is the most fleshed out stuff I know of that studies more detailed accounts of what is going on here, though. |
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| 14:58:44 | <dolio> | And I'm not sure they use 'total' and 'partial', since things can generally be a lot more complicated than e.g. 'sets and total/partial functions' in that setting. |
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| 14:59:10 | <dolio> | The set setting is only really adequate for very simple, flat domains. |
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| 15:18:01 | <d34df00d> | siraben: https://github.com/bos/vector-binary-instances/blob/master/Data/Vector/Binary.hs#L91-L99 — that's re unsafePerformIO. |
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| 15:43:57 | <Gurkenglas> | Shouldn't https://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/jeremy.gibbons/publications/fast+loose.pdf -> (69) use Nu rather than Mu? |
| 15:44:31 | <dolio> | Depends. |
| 15:45:05 | <dolio> | Oh, you're talking about a specific equation. |
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| 15:45:59 | <dolio> | ν does seem more appropriate for that. |
| 15:47:00 | <dolio> | Oh, but they say why just after. |
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| 15:58:05 | <Gurkenglas> | i think i see... but if they were gonna cheat like that, shouldnt they have more explicitly said "since we are now reasoning partially, μ = ν" and used their own unfold? |
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| 16:01:30 | <dolio> | Well, they're not equal. Just isomorphic. |
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| 16:11:23 | <Gurkenglas> | ah they say in 10.3 that 10.2 could "go for coinductive instead of inductive lists, and replace the approximation lemma with the take lemma" |
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| 16:30:06 | <zebrag> | > let {h :: Int -> Char -> [Char]; h _ _ = "Hello"; a = Just 3; b = Just 'a'} in fmap (\(x,y) -> fmap y x) (fmap (\x -> (b,x)) (fmap h a)) -- Supposing I know no specifics of the functor (here Maybe), I don't think I can collapse the result. So I lifted a multi-argument function, but the result is twice encapsulated. |
| 16:30:08 | <lambdabot> | Just (Just "Hello") |
| 16:32:21 | <zebrag> | So "every functor is an applicative" is far from being a fact so far. |
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| 16:41:36 | <zebrag> | Of course I could apply `join` on that, but that'd be assuming the functor is a monad, that'd be defeating the purpose. |
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| 16:51:13 | <muzimuzhi> | doc typo: unpaired left brace "(" in doc for PostfixOperators language extension |
| 16:51:13 | <muzimuzhi> | In doc |
| 16:51:14 | <muzimuzhi> | (for any expression e and operator (!). |
| 16:51:14 | <muzimuzhi> | the "(" before "for" is unpaired. |
| 16:51:15 | <muzimuzhi> | doc: https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/exts/rebindable_syntax.html#postfix-operators |
| 16:51:15 | <muzimuzhi> | source: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/blob/master/docs/users_guide/exts/rebindable_syntax.rst#L143 |
| 16:51:16 | <muzimuzhi> | I was too lazy to post an issue to gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc, so sorry. |
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| 17:08:56 | <lyxia> | I sent a fix |
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| 17:20:33 | <muzimuzhi> | @lyx |
| 17:20:34 | <lambdabot> | Maybe you meant: thx let |
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| 17:21:17 | <muzimuzhi> | lyxia I think you mean https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/merge_requests/5203, thanks. |
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| 17:44:46 | <ep1ctetus> | Hi, I have a record of data I want to save and read again later, does anyone recommend a format to save it in? I have used JSON in the past, so I'm leaning towards that |
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| 17:46:27 | <pavonia> | The quick-and-dirty solution is to just use the Show and Read instances |
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| 17:46:33 | <raehik> | ep1ctetus: is this a Haskell-specific question? Aeson can do this for you without much hassle, but it will depend on your data. can you give any more details? |
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| 17:46:43 | <raehik> | (*Aeson being a JSON lib for Haskell) |
| 17:47:40 | <raehik> | pavonia's right, Show and Read is easier but depends further on using simple data types |
| 17:48:16 | <ep1ctetus> | raehik: sure, It's going to be a list of ~100 entries with a 3-field record. I have a similar system in Python and the files are max 25KB |
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| 17:48:56 | <ep1ctetus> | so you're saying you would just use show and write the result to a file, then read to get it back out |
| 17:49:01 | <ep1ctetus> | I don't see anything wrong with that |
| 17:49:43 | <raehik> | that's quickest and easiest especially if you won't be using the data for anything else inbetween |
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| 17:49:53 | <charukiewicz> | ep1ctetus: The benefit of JSON is that the format is a bit more portable, in case you need to read it from anything other than Haskell |
| 17:50:29 | <charukiewicz> | If this is a hermetically sealed application, then Show/Read should be fine |
| 17:50:44 | <ep1ctetus> | no, it's not going to be used for anything in between -- the JSON system I've used before saves from another program and then is read by a Haskell program |
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| 17:50:56 | <ep1ctetus> | ok, great! glad I asked |
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| 18:29:02 | <curiousgay> | is there a metapackage that installs haskell platform from stack? |
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| 18:35:44 | <geekosaur> | haskell platform's more or less dead |
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| 18:39:05 | <APugNamedPugsley> | When setting up stack in Windows 10, the installer asks if I want to set %STACK_ROOT% to C:\sr what does this do? |
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| 18:41:25 | <curiousgay> | after installing stack on void linux `xbps-install -S stack` I can't install anything via it |
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| 18:42:28 | <curiousgay> | No setup information found for ghc-8.10.4 on your platform. This probably means a GHC bindist has not yet been added for OS key 'linux64-ncurses6'. Supported versions: ghc-7.10.3, ghc-8.0.1, ghc-8.0.2, ghc-8.2.1, ghc-8.2.2 |
| 18:42:41 | <NieDzejkob> | why does `main = sequence $ print <$> xs where xs = sequence $ replicate n [1..n]` leak space? n=8 takes a gigabyte of RAM |
| 18:43:45 | <hololeap> | curiousgay, geekosaur: what about https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs#table-of-contents |
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| 18:45:17 | <curiousgay> | gah, I didn't want to download binaries outside of void linux's repository |
| 18:49:37 | <ephemient> | NieDzejkob: try `sequence_`? |
| 18:50:45 | <NieDzejkob> | ephemient: that helps somewhat, now it takes 300m |
| 18:51:27 | <hololeap> | main = mapM_ print $ sequence_ ... |
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| 18:52:13 | <ephemient> | no, sequence_ @[] doesn't make sense here, only sequence_ @IO |
| 18:52:18 | <NieDzejkob> | hololeap: I don't think I can use sequence_ in that instance, |
| 18:52:25 | <NieDzejkob> | yeah, exactly ^ |
| 18:52:45 | <ephemient> | mapM_ print should have the same behavior as sequence_ . fmap print |
| 18:53:00 | <NieDzejkob> | though thanks for reminding me about mapM_'s existence :D |
| 18:53:02 | <ephemient> | so the remaining memory usage is probably due to sequence @[] |
| 18:53:22 | <NieDzejkob> | yeah, print $ length $ ... uses almost the same amount of memory |
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| 18:54:23 | <ephemient> | e.g. if you imagine sequence specialized to list as being defined like sequence (xs:xss) = [(x:xs') | x <- xs, xs' <- sequence xss] |
| 18:57:02 | <NieDzejkob> | okay, looks like sequence = sequenceA = traverse id, and traverse for List is defined with foldr, so all the combinations of tl xs need to be stored |
| 18:58:56 | <ephemient> | I was trying to find the actual definition just now, you got there faster. yep, looks like inner list is shared so that accounts for the memory usage |
| 18:59:11 | <NieDzejkob> | what's the best way to fix that? |
| 18:59:18 | <hololeap> | :t \n -> sequence $ replicate n [1..n] |
| 18:59:19 | <lambdabot> | Int -> [[Int]] |
| 19:00:00 | <NieDzejkob> | > sequence $ replicate 3 [1..3] |
| 19:00:03 | <lambdabot> | [[1,1,1],[1,1,2],[1,1,3],[1,2,1],[1,2,2],[1,2,3],[1,3,1],[1,3,2],[1,3,3],[2,... |
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| 19:01:14 | <ephemient> | try defining your own sequence like I did there? as long as the recursive call isn't shared I think it'll be O(n) |
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| 19:03:09 | <NieDzejkob> | your definition still uses 300m |
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| 19:03:31 | <hololeap> | maybe define it with foldr and BangPatterns ? |
| 19:03:53 | <hololeap> | i would suggest foldl', but that would mess up the order |
| 19:04:01 | <NieDzejkob> | oh, but only with -O. without optimizations, it's well-behaved |
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| 19:04:56 | <ephemient> | hololeap, I don't see what BangPatterns would help |
| 19:05:26 | <koz_> | What's the goal here? Print a big-as list? |
| 19:05:29 | <hololeap> | doesn't BangPatterns allow you to define eager evaluation in a function? |
| 19:05:37 | <ephemient> | NieDzejkob, yeah if CSE lifts it for sharing... |
| 19:05:50 | <ephemient> | hololeap: that's not the issue |
| 19:06:17 | <hololeap> | oh... |
| 19:06:29 | <NieDzejkob> | koz_: pretty much, print all combinations with replacement |
| 19:06:53 | <NieDzejkob> | in my actual code I run another map over the list of combinations, but that's not relevant here |
| 19:06:58 | <koz_> | NieDzejkob: I think you're being bitten by the fact that lists stop being lazy when they touch IO. |
| 19:07:04 | <koz_> | Aka 'the thing pipes was written to fix'. |
| 19:07:14 | <ephemient> | looks just like https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/12620 actually |
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| 19:07:30 | <NieDzejkob> | koz_: not really, evaluating length of the list also takes the same memory |
| 19:07:49 | <koz_> | OK, then ephemient is probably right. |
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| 19:09:11 | <ephemient> | -I - fno-cse :-/ |
| 19:09:47 | <ephemient> | err, autocorrect turned my -O into - I |
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| 19:12:01 | <NieDzejkob> | -O -fno-cse still leaks |
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| 19:14:03 | <ephemient> | hmm I don't know how to prevent that from happening then. :-( |
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| 19:20:25 | <dolio> | It can't be due to that cse example. The reason the cse example uses memory is that [1..] is retained. However, [1..8] is not big, nor is the list of 8 copies of [1..8]. |
| 19:21:00 | <NieDzejkob> | it's the xs' <- sequence xss that gets retained |
| 19:21:05 | <NieDzejkob> | and it's of size 7^8 |
| 19:21:17 | <NieDzejkob> | or 8^7, whatever |
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| 19:33:30 | <koz_> | Try something like 'runEffect $ each (sequence . replicate 3 $ [1 .. 3]) >-> P.print' using pipes stuff. |
| 19:33:43 | <koz_> | Raise the 3s to 8s and see if it still has the same memory issues. |
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| 19:35:33 | <koz_> | (P here is Pipes.Prelude, and Pipes is imported for each, runEffect and >->) |
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| 19:46:38 | <monochrom> | NieDzejkob: -fno-full-laziness is also worth a try |
| 19:46:56 | <dolio> | This isn't caused by optimizations. |
| 19:47:06 | <monochrom> | Ah OK sorry. |
| 19:47:44 | <NieDzejkob> | the sequence (xs:xss) = [(x:xs') | x <- xs, xs' <- sequence xss] version is caused by optimizations, as compiling without -O gives the proper memory usage |
| 19:51:36 | <monochrom> | You may want this: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3190098/space-leak-in-list-program/5494561#5494561 |
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| 19:52:03 | <monochrom> | It is kind of well known actually. Oleg also complained bitterly on haskell-cafe. |
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| 19:53:00 | <koz_> | OK, tried that thing above with 8s. No memory leaks at all. |
| 19:56:10 | <dolio> | Oh, okay. I guess I was breaking my own rule. In ghci it behaves poorly regardless. |
| 19:56:22 | <dolio> | Even with -fno-it. |
| 19:57:05 | <curiousgay> | hololeap: well, actual solution to problem was simply installing ncurses-tinfo-libs in void linux, without that stack refuses to work |
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| 19:57:55 | <hololeap> | curiousgay: hm, ok |
| 19:58:19 | <dolio> | The full laziness flag would be more likely to matter, because there's no common subexpression in that code. |
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| 20:06:39 | <ephemient> | right, I realize now that it's not literally CSE, it's just floating one single subexpression |
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| 21:26:43 | <dolio> | I think what GHC considers for CSE is pretty limited, too. |
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| 21:29:27 | <dolio> | Like, if you do case analysis on the same thing twice, where one case is nested under the other, it might replace it with one case analysis. |
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| 21:55:38 | <monochrom> | Yes, GHC is pretty happy to eliminate duplicate pattern matching, e.g., https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2013-April/107775.html |
| 21:56:40 | <monochrom> | But also pretty reluctant in general CSE. |
| 21:57:10 | <dolio> | Yeah, you need to be doing something at least a little weird. |
| 21:58:06 | <dolio> | I wouldn't be surprised if most CSE it does isn't something the programmer writes, but caused by optimizations. |
| 21:58:33 | <dolio> | Like inlining of those test-and-project definitions. |
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| 21:58:44 | <monochrom> | SPJ's Core talk has a lot about details of optimizing pattern matching in the 2nd half. https://youtu.be/uR_VzYxvbxg |
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| 22:02:32 | <dolio> | Also, if you think about it, that corresponds considerably more closely to what CSE would do in an eager language. You CSE because you're pre-evaluating the same thing twice in a scope before continuing. |
| 22:02:57 | <dolio> | Not just naming the same expression twice. |
| 22:03:07 | <monochrom> | Yeah, that's a good perspective. |
| 22:04:23 | <monochrom> | Whereas CSE on lazy expressions can cost more space than worthwhile. |
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| 22:06:49 | <monochrom> | Very nice way to look at it. Thanks dolio. |
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| 22:08:35 | <dolio> | I guess you could still run into issues because of deeper laziness, but you'd have to be doing something a bit odd. |
| 22:09:10 | <evrgreen> | Is it possible to `instance Data.Aeson.ToJSON (Data.Array.Array Int Int)`? I get `No instance for (Generic (Data.Array.Array Int Int)) ...` |
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| 22:10:20 | <evrgreen> | Hoping to do derive it automatically rather than writing my ToJSON. |
| 22:10:31 | <monochrom> | Do you mind using Vector instead of Array? I think aeson has done Vector. |
| 22:11:59 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | if I have a type synonym of `ex = Int -> Int` is it possible to do something like `xyz :: ex -> Int` where that would really be `xyz :: Int -> Int -> Int` instead of `(Int -> Int) -> Int`? |
| 22:12:53 | <monochrom> | I think "type ex = Int->Int" is a syntax error. Need to capitalize "ex". type Ex = Int->Int |
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| 22:13:37 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | OK, that was pseudo Haskell, but what about my question? |
| 22:13:39 | <monochrom> | Ex->Int will always mean (Int->Int)->Int. This is syntax tree substitution not textual substitution. |
| 22:13:56 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | but... Is there a way to do that? |
| 22:14:04 | <monochrom> | #define? |
| 22:14:08 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | aside from a makefile script that changes occurrences or something |
| 22:14:40 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | You can do that in Haskell? |
| 22:15:13 | <monochrom> | Normally we use C preprocesor stuff for conditional compilation. But yes that means you have full access to #define tricks. |
| 22:15:48 | <monochrom> | and you add {-# language CPP #-} |
| 22:16:04 | <monochrom> | It's a total kludge, yes. |
| 22:16:30 | <monochrom> | The "alternative" is Template Haskell which is way more complex for this use case, but more disciplined. |
| 22:16:46 | <monochrom> | But my real opinion is "just don't do it". |
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| 22:17:19 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | I just have a decent number of types that have a lot in common, and I'm trying to make it easier to understand |
| 22:17:56 | <monochrom> | Perhaps look for another commanlity. |
| 22:18:19 | <evrgreen> | I oversimplified my example; the index is really a tuple (a 2D coordinate). But I see one can do multidimensional vectors, so I'll try that... https://wiki.haskell.org/Numeric_Haskell:_A_Vector_Tutorial#Simple_example |
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| 22:19:26 | <monochrom> | Yeah evrgreen, I was going to say that a compromise is you still write your own ToJSON instance but you just convert to Vector then toJSON the Vector. |
| 22:20:08 | <evrgreen> | Oh, yes. Much better than changing my core data type. |
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| 22:21:42 | <monochrom> | The fundamental issue IMO is that JSON itself doesn't have any notion of "array but the index range is not 0..n-1" in the first place. |
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| 22:23:19 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Another question, I've copied code from another module, and this module has a public method, but even though all the imports are there, and are similitude when I use it (in the same way) within the copied code it gives me a variable not in scope error. What's up here? |
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| 22:36:15 | <lyxia> | heck-to-the-gnom: you did not rename correctly, or not all of the imports are actually there, for example if the code depends on other unexported definitions in that other module. |
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| 22:52:11 | <arahael> | monochrom: At a pinch, you could use an object where the keys are your non-zero-based array indexes. |
| 22:54:14 | <Axman6> | heck-to-the-gnom: type Ex a = Int -> Int -> a? xyz :: Ex Int -- a.k.a Int -> Int -> Int |
| 22:54:39 | <ephemient> | not exactly legal JSON, but in JS [, 1, 2, 3] is allowed... that's an array with the first (valid) index at 1, sorta :D |
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| 22:56:06 | <monochrom> | yikes |
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| 22:59:09 | <__minoru__shirae> | there is word for that thing in js, like "non-continuous indices" or something |
| 22:59:52 | Axman6 | wishes we had Ada style array indexing in Haskell natively |
| 23:01:58 | <monochrom> | I forgot, what does Ada array indexing look like? I only remember it was nice. |
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| 23:03:48 | <Axman6> | it's essentially arbitrary, you can say an array is indexed by Ints from 7 to 23. and also non numeric types, like having an enum of Red Green Bloe and defining Pixel = Array<Colour> |
| 23:04:42 | <Axman6> | it's essentially arbitrary, you can say an array is indexed by Ints from 7 to 23. and also non numeric types, like having an enum of Red Green Bloe and defining Pixel = Array<Colour> |
| 23:04:42 | <monochrom> | IIRC Pascal does that too. |
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| 23:05:01 | <monochrom> | But doesn't Data.Array already do that, and take it to the next dimension too? |
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| 23:05:49 | <Axman6> | yeah but it's clearly Ints uncerneath, it feels more baked into Ada |
| 23:06:00 | <Axman6> | underneath* |
| 23:06:34 | <Axman6> | and it wouldn't surprise me if it came from Pascal, since that's the closest language to Ada IIRC |
| 23:06:44 | × | mouseghost quits (~draco@wikipedia/desperek) (Quit: mew wew) |
| 23:07:10 | <monochrom> | Ada = Pascal + parametric polymorphism + module + concurrency :) |
| 23:07:24 | <monochrom> | = Haskell + imperative + module |
| 23:07:30 | <cookielady> | hey there any non haskell hacking chats you use? |
| 23:07:30 | <Axman6> | yeah |
| 23:07:41 | <Axman6> | what sort of hacking? |
| 23:08:02 | <monochrom> | I use hexchat. Does that count? |
| 23:08:20 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | cookielady: what did you find? |
| 23:08:23 | <Axman6> | I think if you do /whois Axman6 you' |
| 23:08:25 | <monochrom> | Especially the very small hamming distance between "hacks" and "hex". |
| 23:08:43 | <Axman6> | ll see the pletheroa of channels I'm in |
| 23:09:18 | <glguy> | Axman6: your channel list is private, it will only show common channels when someone runs /whois on you |
| 23:09:23 | <Axman6> | aww |
| 23:09:49 | <glguy> | You can opt-out of that privacy with: /umode -i |
| 23:09:50 | <monochrom> | But the context is that cookielady is here for general IRC guidance, not for Haskell. |
| 23:10:03 | <Axman6> | I guess not then! |
| 23:10:06 | <monochrom> | At some point I will have to point out "this is not a directory service either". |
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| 23:11:14 | <Axman6> | cookielady: answering that question is difficult without knowing what you're itnerested in |
| 23:11:17 | <cookielady> | yes you right, but thats just because i dont really know haskell. do you wanna explain me a lil bit of what you actully use haskell for |
| 23:11:55 | <Axman6> | Programs :) |
| 23:12:03 | <monochrom> | Programming and understanding programming. Not for hacking. |
| 23:12:27 | <Axman6> | web services, data processing, playing with algorithms, #job |
| 23:12:42 | <ephemient> | well, depends on the definition of "hacking" in use |
| 23:13:06 | <Axman6> | I hack around with all sorts of things |
| 23:13:11 | <glguy> | I use Haskell to host my Lua programs |
| 23:13:14 | <Axman6> | in haskell* |
| 23:13:18 | <Axman6> | ha |
| 23:13:22 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | cookielady: so you joined a bunch of channels? are there channels comparable to haskell in terms of activity per day? |
| 23:13:26 | <monochrom> | Actually as it happens I don't use Haskell for any definition of hacking. I use shell scripts for one of the definitions of hacking. |
| 23:13:35 | <cookielady> | Axman6: alright interesting, but how do you actually use haskell , because on haskell i only got to know this chatroom |
| 23:14:04 | <monochrom> | I open an editor and start typing in code? |
| 23:14:15 | <monochrom> | Then run an interpreter to test my code? |
| 23:14:27 | <Axman6> | I don't know how to answer that question cookielady |
| 23:14:30 | <ephemient> | Haskell is a general purpose language, you program in it just like most other languages |
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| 23:14:54 | <cookielady> | alright then |
| 23:14:58 | <cookielady> | thank you guys |
| 23:15:00 | <Axman6> | how do you use C? How do you use Java? How do you use Python? |
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| 23:15:14 | <ephemient> | the major implementation GHC will compile Haskell code to native binaries, not interpreted - but it also comes with GHCi, an interactive REPL that can interpret your code |
| 23:16:21 | <monochrom> | And eventually conclude "I'm so glad this is not C++"? |
| 23:17:11 | <monochrom> | Sorry but I'm doing LLVM homework. It really shows C++ oddballness. Powerful but unreadable. |
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| 23:17:58 | <monochrom> | A classmate goes further and words it as "C++ syntax is toxic". |
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| 23:18:21 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | ^^ +1 |
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| 23:18:54 | <monochrom> | To be sure, the semantics is the toxic one, the syntax is just a reflection of that. |
| 23:19:05 | <Axman6> | I've been watching a few videos recently from CPPcon or something and yeah I'm always blown away by how batshit crazy the syntax it |
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| 23:20:29 | <Axman6> | I watched a video on implementing ... HAMTs or B-Trees or something, and seeing how many hoops needed to be jumped through to get what we have in ST and Vector/MVector was painful |
| 23:20:47 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | Axman6: "how do you use C? How do you use Java? How do you use Python?" I think you can broadly categorize languages by usage. |
| 23:20:52 | <Axman6> | and just crazy shit like someFunction() = 0; like whatever is that |
| 23:20:52 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | C - systems programming |
| 23:21:05 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | Java - corporate webapps |
| 23:21:17 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | Python - scripts, data science, etc. |
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| 23:21:32 | <Axman6> | Java was supposed to be an embedded real-time language |
| 23:22:10 | <ephemient> | C++ like "oh no initialization parentheses are horrible, we need to invent initialization braces" "oh no we invented initialization braces wrong, we need new braces" |
| 23:22:44 | <Axman6> | seems like auto is making C++ much less insane these days though |
| 23:23:11 | <monochrom> | I have mixed feelings about auto. |
| 23:23:50 | <Axman6> | me too, it seels like it's pretty easy to get the wrong type so you end up needing to add back in things like const frequently |
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| 23:24:14 | Axman6 | says this without having actually written any C++ but has seen plenty of talks on it, which masically makes him an expert |
| 23:24:15 | <monochrom> | Not to deny the pros, but sometimes the cons show: I now have no idea what is the type and therefore which methods and operators are applicable. |
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| 23:24:57 | <monochrom> | Whereas Haskell gets it right. Don't make it tedious to handwrite the type. |
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| 23:25:24 | <ephemient> | ideally it would be optional... but they made the types of lambda expressions un-denotable so you can *only* use auto with them... |
| 23:25:26 | <d34df00d> | Axman6: > HAMTs or B-Trees or something, and seeing how many hoops needed to be jumped through to get what we have in ST and Vector/MVector was painful |
| 23:25:31 | <d34df00d> | Curious about that, as a former C++ guy. |
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| 23:25:38 | <monochrom> | Types can be inferred but there are still many reasons to handwrite the type nonetheless. |
| 23:25:43 | <d34df00d> | Do you have a link to some video? I'd be curious to see and compare. |
| 23:25:44 | × | xsperry quits (~as@unaffiliated/xsperry) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 23:25:57 | <Axman6> | I'll have a look |
| 23:26:21 | × | rj quits (~x@gateway/tor-sasl/rj) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 23:26:27 | <Axman6> | https://youtu.be/sPhpelUfu8Q |
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| 23:26:34 | <d34df00d> | Also, don't confuse auto and decltype(auto), those are two very different things. |
| 23:26:53 | <d34df00d> | So []() -> auto { ... } is very different from []() -> decltype(auto) { ... } |
| 23:27:17 | <d34df00d> | Axman6: yay thanks! |
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| 23:29:22 | <bss03> | Recommended web application framework that maximizes server-side rendering? I'd like to use react-haskell, but that's a mild preference... doesn't even have to be haskell, I prefer types over no types, but this isn't going to be a huge app. |
| 23:29:51 | <monochrom> | One of those static website generators. |
| 23:30:42 | <monochrom> | http://hackage.haskell.org/package/gitit |
| 23:30:45 | <bss03> | Well, it wouldn't be static exactly. I'll need a lot of JS/WASM generated. :/ |
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| 23:33:03 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | one would expect node js to play well with server side rendering |
| 23:33:21 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | js on server |
| 23:33:56 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | not sure if it really helps in that case though |
| 23:34:02 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Is there a way that I can have multiple types like `type A a b c = ...` `type A a b c d = ...`? I tried doing just that, but is there a way to have optional arguments like so? |
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| 23:34:46 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | those are different kinds, if you know what I mean |
| 23:35:13 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | or not? |
| 23:35:17 | <monochrom> | No, you need to pick different names. |
| 23:35:22 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | I kind of do |
| 23:35:24 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | ok |
| 23:35:47 | <monochrom> | optional arguments is not a thing in Haskell, whether term level or type level. |
| 23:35:53 | <dmj`> | heck-to-the-gnom: no, the way people accomplish this is with one giant ADT that has a ton of type variables, and various newtypes that partially apply types internally, or additional type synonyms that specialize A |
| 23:36:10 | <monochrom> | Eventually you may to need check out "type classes", they may do some things you want. |
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| 23:36:26 | <dmj`> | but first look at yourself in the mirror and ask if this is necessary |
| 23:37:00 | <monochrom> | "Mirror mirror who has the most beautiful code?"? >:) |
| 23:37:42 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | hmm, I think this thing is not related to kinds, not sure |
| 23:37:47 | <hpc> | mirror mirror on the wall, which queue is the fairest of them all |
| 23:37:59 | <dmj`> | hpc: you beat me to it :P |
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| 23:39:49 | <bss03> | Wanting to improve on https://bss03.gitlab.io/vue-webpack-ts-lambda (https://gitlab.com/bss03/vue-webpack-ts-lambda), prefrrably using less typescript and more haskell and react. |
| 23:39:54 | <monochrom> | "You have the most beautiful Java code in all Javaland" |
| 23:40:03 | <monochrom> | "But I mean universally" |
| 23:40:24 | <monochrom> | "Well OK, SPJ in Haskellland has more beautiful code in Haskell" |
| 23:40:36 | <monochrom> | "I'm gonna buy him a Mac" |
| 23:40:56 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | public static void main (String[] args) - it is like a poem |
| 23:41:22 | <hpc> | if you really want beautiful code, buy him a netbook that boots straight into vim :D |
| 23:41:49 | <dmj`> | minoru_shiraeesh: it's almost a haiku |
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| 23:44:12 | <monochrom> | What is minify? |
| 23:44:33 | <ShalokShalom> | What is the widely accepted alternative for records in Haskell for beginner? |
| 23:44:59 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | you mean alternative to using the "data" keyword? |
| 23:45:11 | <monochrom> | Don't use any record? |
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| 23:46:28 | <hpc> | monochrom: minify shrinks javascript by removing whitespace and shortening identifiers and such, for better use of bandwidth |
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| 23:47:16 | <ShalokShalom> | I read records are broken |
| 23:47:37 | <ShalokShalom> | So can I use them without biting myself into the back? |
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| 23:48:15 | <monochrom> | Do you mean http://hackage.haskell.org/package/records ? Or do you mean something else? Examples? |
| 23:48:17 | <ShalokShalom> | I heard they are one of the most fundamental problems in Haskell |
| 23:48:30 | <ShalokShalom> | Idk. The standard build in records. |
| 23:48:37 | <dmj`> | ShalokShalom: records are not broken, they're just not extensible. |
| 23:48:46 | <ShalokShalom> | Like what can I use to replace fsharp reccords |
| 23:49:20 | <ShalokShalom> | How mich of an issue is that in practice? |
| 23:49:23 | <dmj`> | ShalokShalom: records are extremely powerful in Haskell, even w/o row polymorphism. Generics and GHC's deriving mechanism make records extremely powerful and featureful |
| 23:49:34 | <ShalokShalom> | Ok, nice |
| 23:50:05 | <monochrom> | Beginners would not run into the limitations of Haskell record syntax. |
| 23:50:30 | <monochrom> | Apart from a bit more verbose syntax. |
| 23:51:12 | <ShalokShalom> | Hmm |
| 23:51:24 | <ShalokShalom> | Deriving mechanism? |
| 23:51:29 | → | jamm_ joins (~jamm@unaffiliated/jamm) |
| 23:51:31 | <ShalokShalom> | Read on that. |
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All times are in UTC on 2021-03-08.