Logs on 2021-03-10 (freenode/#haskell)

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00:51:11	<curiousgay>	eh, how often haskell.org rotates certificates?
00:51:52	<curiousgay>	right now I can't connect to it because certificate has changed (but few minutes ago it was fine)
00:53:02	<monochrom>	worksforme
00:53:14	<monochrom>	It really doesn't change certificate all that often.
00:53:48	<curiousgay>	well, at least now I'm able to connect
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00:53:55	<glguy>	It's a Let's Encrypt certificate, so it changes regularly
00:54:08	<curiousgay>	guh
00:54:17	<glguy>	the current one is from Feb 9
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00:54:52	<monochrom>	expires May 10.
00:55:06	<monochrom>	I really doubt there was a change in the last 24 hours.
00:55:12	<curiousgay>	encryption is strong enough to serve for decades, there's no reason to rotate certificate every month
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00:55:25	<glguy>	curiousgay: that's not why they rotate
00:55:32	<curiousgay>	s/every month/every 3 months/
00:55:44	<glguy>	anyway, rotation is normal and not something a client will get hung up on
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00:56:24	<monochrom>	I have never ran into a certificate problem with haskell.org.
00:56:39	<monochrom>	May I suggest the darker theory that your connection is/was compromised.
00:56:55	<curiousgay>	glguy: that rotation is based on assumption a client trusts certificate authorities
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00:57:50	<curiousgay>	in TOFU world rotating without warning doesn't make any sense
00:58:11	<monochrom>	glguy: I'm curious now. What is the benefit of the rotation?
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00:59:15	<glguy>	monochrom: you don't have to maintain as big of a CRL, leaked private keys are dangerous for shorter windows, you can transfer a domain to someone new who can start using it earlier knowing the certiifcates issued for it have expired already, probably others, but those come to mind
00:59:16	<curiousgay>	the benefit of rotation is that if one of your private keys gets compromised it doesn't allow to compromise entire history
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00:59:40	<monochrom>	Ah, thanks.
00:59:43	<curiousgay>	but if you leak keys you need to restructure your security
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01:01:00	<curiousgay>	like don't store keys where you run a bunch of untrusted programs where you don't know how they work
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01:01:30	<curiousgay>	and encrypt your disk with AES-256 in XTS mode with long reliable password
01:01:53	<glguy>	anway, it sounds like you understand how certificates work
01:03:06	<curiousgay>	not really, I simply treat them as public keys, but I'm aware their structure is more complex than that
01:03:50	<curiousgay>	that allows them to go into a nightmare called web of trust
01:04:13	<glguy>	Anyway, we're more focused on Haskell here than PKI
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01:06:42	<curiousgay>	well, I thought it makes sense to also discuss official Haskell site here
01:07:03	<glguy>	yeah, the question of did the certificate rotate was resolved
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01:41:53	<curiousgay>	stack can't install haddock because it requires GHC 9, but LTS-17 provides GHC 8.10
01:42:33	<curiousgay>	ah, haddock is not part of LTS-17
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03:44:47	<justsomeguy>	What does the interchange law of applicative mean? a <> pure v = pure (\f -> f v) <> a
03:46:05	<justsomeguy>	Is it saying that an applicative containing functions applied to an applicative of values in the same context is the same as applying that function to every member element of the applicative containg values? (Does that even make sense?)
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03:58:48	<inkbottle>	Right, `pure` doesn't have an effect, so whichever side of the `<*>` you put it has no influence on the effectfull side of it (not really answering your question, but part of it maybe)
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04:00:07	<inkbottle>	For instance if it is a parser, `pure` won't consume any input
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04:01:29	<inkbottle>	effectfull aspect*
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04:08:09	<inkbottle>	> parse ((,) <$> (char 'a') <*> (pure 3)) "hello" "a"
04:08:11	<lambdabot>	error:
04:08:11	<lambdabot>	Variable not in scope:
04:08:11	<lambdabot>	parse :: f0 (a0, a1) -> [Char] -> [Char] -> t
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04:09:40	<inkbottle>	> Text.Parsec.parse ((,) <$> (char 'a') <*> (pure 3)) "hello" "a"
04:09:41	<lambdabot>	error:
04:09:42	<lambdabot>	Not in scope: ‘Text.Parsec.parse’
04:09:42	<lambdabot>	No module named ‘Text.Parsec’ is imported.
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04:11:16	<inkbottle>	Anyway it would have had the same result as
04:11:27	<inkbottle>	parse (pure ($ 3) <*> ((,) <$> (char 'a'))) "hello" "a"
04:12:12	<justsomeguy>	Hmm, thanks for that, inkbottle
04:12:22	justsomeguy	sets up a project to try it out
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04:13:37	<inkbottle>	And that mostly because `pure` doesn't touch the input thingy.
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04:17:08	<inkbottle>	"hello" is just a string passed to give a name to the parser. "a" is the input string. I should have found a better way to run the parser without that unnecessary "hello" string.
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06:06:18	<blahblahblah>	Trying to upload a package on hackage results in "'cabal-version' must be at least 1.10" despite having package.cabal with >= 1.8
06:06:31	<blahblahblah>	Packaged exactly the same as previous releases.
06:06:50	<blahblahblah>	Any idea what is going on?
06:07:05	<glguy>	blahblahblah, cabal-version doesn't take a range (any more?)
06:08:33	<glguy>	https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/file-format-changelog.html?highlight=cabal-version#package-description-format-specification-history
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06:09:56	<blahblahblah>	I see. So... which versions are supported by Hackage? All of them?
06:10:51	<glguy>	presumably the ones from 1.10 up
06:11:00	<blahblahblah>	I see. Thank you.
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09:34:06	<ADG1089__>	I was trying to use criterion to benchmark some of my function but it seems if they don't accept any argument then laziness replaces the function with the return value itself, which is a little problematic. Any idea to overcome this?
09:35:25	<merijn>	ADG1089__: turn it into a function :p
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09:37:28	<mananamenos>	Hi, I have this pseudo code snippet https://gist.github.com/mananamenos/1fba33e62e0df088205c9c7b183ae2cd. So in AppM I call functions (get, post..) which take a parameter of type HandlerM, so I cannot wrap my AppM into my custom ReaderT monad, cause then there is no way those HandlerM paramaters of get function could use the same ReaderT. Therefore the snippet: every endpoint now has to call `runReaderT`. Is this ok? Can
09:37:28	<mananamenos>	I write this better?
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09:48:24	<ADG1089__>	merijn: I introduced a bogus parameter which wasn't being used, but I thing ghc detected that and did not evaluate the function again. getting runtime in nanoseconds for functions that take few seconds. Actually it would be better to call them constants
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10:25:58	<jacks2>	ADG1089__, if it doesn't accept any arguments it isn't a function. what's the actual type?
10:32:18	<tomsmeding>	mananamenos: not it looks fine to me, to be honest
10:32:46	<tomsmeding>	if you like more magic, you could try to use the mtl approach, where you let functions work in a typeclass-ed monad
10:34:18	<mananamenos>	tomsmeding, thank you. Right, this is what I'm actually reading/looking about right now xD
10:35:26	<tomsmeding>	mananamenos: though on second thoughts, I'm not sure that will help you much here; your problem is the other way round: it's not a function in monad m that you want to call in a larger monad m', but a function that _takes_ an argument in monad m that you'd like to instead provide an argument of a larger monad m'
10:35:32	<tomsmeding>	in general that can't work, of course
10:36:08	<tomsmeding>	as an extreme example, a function that wants an argument in the Reader monad can't be massaged to take an argument in IO, in general
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10:36:28	<mananamenos>	tomsmeding, the biggest advantage of this mtl, typeclass-ed monad approach is that you dont hardcode your readerT right until the last step right? and then you change the implementation of the readerT to another underlying monad for test purpose for example?
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10:36:31	<tomsmeding>	the thing here is that Reader is fairly innocuous, and in fact you can eliminate it directly here
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10:37:38	<tomsmeding>	mananamenos: kind of, yes
10:37:52	<tomsmeding>	but also that you can let functions work in a bigger monad stack than they were designed for
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10:39:14	<tomsmeding>	for example, if a function 'foo' wants to run in a Reader Environment monad, but you're instead working in a ReaderT Environment WhateverM, then you you could write 'foo' to hvae signature foo :: MonadReader Environment m => m result instead of foo :: Reader Environment result
10:39:55	<tomsmeding>	then you could write instance Monad m => MonadReader e (ReaderT e m)
10:40:24	<tomsmeding>	but as I said, your problem is the other say round: not the result of a function that you want in a bigger monad, but an argument
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10:40:55	<jacks2>	ADG1089__, if it is something like foo :: IO SomeType, doing this will force deep evaluation of the SomeType object: x <- foo; evaluate (force x);
10:41:02	<tomsmeding>	which you can't do in general using the mtl approach I believe; you could of course write a get' :: String -> e -> ReaderT e HandlerM () -> AppM ()
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10:41:15	<tomsmeding>	mananamenos: but I suppose you already thought of that :)
10:41:47	<jacks2>	ADG1089__, in that case, time both x <- foo and evaluate (force x)
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10:46:50	<tomsmeding>	ADG1089__: the 'force' is not necessary if evaluating the result to WHNF is sufficient
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10:49:13	<blahblahblah>	cabal check gives me a warning about using a fixed version before 1.10, even though I'm not using 1.10. The problem is it exits with a nonzero exit code. Shouldn't cabal check only exit with error code for... errors?
10:50:54	<tomsmeding>	blahblahblah: 'cabal check --help' says 'If no errors and warnings are reported, Hackage will accept this package.'
10:51:01	<tomsmeding>	so I assume it's by design?
10:51:49	<tomsmeding>	also supporting cabal 1.8 sounds not very useful to me
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10:53:52	<mananamenos>	tomsmeding, thanks!
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11:06:57	<zq>	:t 6
11:06:58	<lambdabot>	Num p => p
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11:08:04	<zq>	how do i figure out which package typeclass Partial resides in?
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11:11:48	<[exa]>	zq: you hoogle it on hoogle :]
11:12:36	<[exa]>	...but not sure if there's the actual Partial typeclass: https://hoogle.haskell.org/?hoogle=Partial
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11:13:25	<[exa]>	(perhaps it's the `type Partial=HasCallStack` from `safe` ?)
11:15:02	<zq>	[exa]: thanks, it's been a while since i've last haskelled and i forgot about the hoogle name
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11:15:28	<zq>	the one i'm looking at is from Control.Exception.Extra
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11:22:06	<ADG1089__>	@pl \x -> f x && g x
11:22:06	<lambdabot>	liftM2 (&&) f g
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11:22:41	<ADG1089__>	:t \x -> (&&) <*> f <&> g
11:22:42	<lambdabot>	error:
11:22:42	<lambdabot>	• Could not deduce (FromExpr Bool) arising from a use of ‘f’
11:22:43	<lambdabot>	from the context: FromExpr b
11:22:56	<ADG1089__>	:t (&&) <*> f <&> g
11:22:58	<lambdabot>	error:
11:22:58	<lambdabot>	• Could not deduce (FromExpr Bool) arising from a use of ‘f’
11:22:58	<lambdabot>	from the context: FromExpr b
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11:29:44	<zq>	really not a fan of type HasCallStack = ?callStack :: CallStack
11:30:06	<zq>	it completely obscures the variable that is in scope
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11:32:20	<tomsmeding>	:t \f g -> (&&) <$> f <*> g
11:32:21	<lambdabot>	Applicative f => f Bool -> f Bool -> f Bool
11:32:25	<tomsmeding>	ADG1089__: ^
11:33:37	<tomsmeding>	<$> = fmap takes (&&) :: Bool -> (Bool -> Bool) and f :: f Bool and applies (&&) under the applicative, producing f (Bool -> Bool)
11:34:06	<tomsmeding>	<*> takes f (Bool -> Bool) and f Bool and applies a function within the applicative to the argument, producing f Bool
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11:34:17	<tomsmeding>	:t \f g -> pure (&&) <> f <> g
11:34:19	<lambdabot>	Applicative f => f Bool -> f Bool -> f Bool
11:34:52	<tomsmeding>	<*> is like <$> except it takes a function within the applicative instead a plain function
11:35:38	<tomsmeding>	<$> <*> is not just a magic pattern, it also means something :)
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12:14:33	<ADG1089__>	why doesn't cabal install <executable> pickup flage from <project>.cabal file?
12:15:13	<maerwald>	ADG1089__: because it creates an sdist first, unpacks it in tmp and then builds it there
12:15:24	<ADG1089__>	It is using -w ghc-8.10.4 -O1 but in cabal I mentioned -O2 -fllvm. Also it is installing all executables even though i specificed the name
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12:15:49	<maerwald>	pass it as command line arguments instead, that should work
12:16:05	<ADG1089__>	merijn: yeah, I see it doing something in ./sdist/<project-anme>-<porject version>.tar.gz
12:16:14	<merijn>	Are you sure "cabal install <executable>" isn't just installing an entirely unrelated package?
12:16:43	<ADG1089__>	maerwald: giving the flags again? isn't that redundant since I already mentioned in cabal file?
12:16:47	<merijn>	Are executables even a valid target for install
12:17:12	<merijn>	ADG1089__: Pastebin your cabal file, command and build output
12:17:35	<merijn>	maerwald: Your comment does not apply to his question
12:17:49	<merijn>	maerwald: You are referring to cabal.project, he was referring to a regular cabal file
12:18:11	<maerwald>	oh right
12:19:24	<ADG1089__>	merijn: cabal file: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/HbsivGIx command execution: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/TAyrSZFu
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12:22:49	<merijn>	ADG1089__: The build profile just refers to the default cabal configuration for optimisation, though. It doesn't inspect ghc-options to see if you pass -O2 there
12:23:34	<ADG1089__>	merijn: what do you suggest, I do to include those flags?
12:24:04	<merijn>	ADG1089__: My point is that it likely is compiling with -O2
12:24:22	<merijn>	but that's just not reported in the build profile, because it's not part of the build profile
12:24:25	<hololeap>	i've got an abstraction in mind and i'm looking for a way to translate it to a monad transformer stack. a good example is iptables. there is a list of filters and each one can choose to consume a packet and/or pass it down the line
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12:24:41	<merijn>	I suspect that if you run cabal -v3 and look at the actual GHC invocation it will have -O2
12:26:32	<hololeap>	would this just be a `traverse` over some short-circuiting monad like Either?
12:27:17	<hololeap>	actually, no it would probably be a foldM
12:28:26	<hololeap>	% :t foldM @(Either String)
12:28:27	<yahb>	hololeap: Monad m => (b -> a -> m b) -> b -> Either String a -> m b
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12:28:44	<hololeap>	% :t foldM @[] @(Either String)
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12:28:44	<yahb>	hololeap: (b -> a -> Either String b) -> b -> [a] -> Either String b
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12:29:19	<hololeap>	% :t foldM @[] @(MaybeT _)
12:29:19	<yahb>	hololeap: ; <interactive>:1:13: error:; Not in scope: type constructor or class `MaybeT'; Perhaps you meant `Maybe' (imported from Prelude)
12:30:15	<hololeap>	% import Contol.Monad.Trans.Maybe
12:30:15	<yahb>	hololeap: ; <no location info>: error:; Could not find module `Contol.Monad.Trans.Maybe'; Perhaps you meant; Control.Monad.Trans.Maybe (from transformers-0.5.6.2); Control.Monad.Trans.Free (from free-5.1.6); Control.Monad.Trans.State (from transformers-0.5.6.2)
12:30:28	<hololeap>	% import Control.Monad.Trans.Maybe
12:30:28	<yahb>	hololeap:
12:30:30	<hololeap>	% :t foldM @[] @(MaybeT _)
12:30:30	<yahb>	hololeap: Monad w => (b -> a -> MaybeT w b) -> b -> [a] -> MaybeT w b
12:30:48	<merijn>	hololeap: Use pm?
12:31:17	<ADG1089__>	merijn: no I don't think it's invoking those flags as i see in -v3. And I still don't know why it is installing all executables
12:31:39	<merijn>	ADG1089__: Because there is no "install executable" command
12:31:45	<merijn>	ADG1089__: There is only "install package"
12:32:02	<hololeap>	merijn: sorry, didn't mean to be so loud
12:33:36	<ADG1089__>	merijn: that's a bummer, I'll have to find a way to install specific executables from my cabal file into that directly with flags from cabal file
12:33:54	<ADG1089__>	probably I'll find something in the docs
12:34:29	<merijn>	ADG1089__: Why do you want to install said executables? If you just wanna run them you can just use "cabal run"
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12:35:49	<ADG1089__>	merijn: I want to time those "time ./bin/problem719" but "cabal run problem719" adds 3-4 secs. I tried using criterion but it would require me to modify all my code to be compatible with it's whnf parameter which doesn't accept constants.
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12:36:24	<merijn>	If you don't care about accuracy too much you can try
12:36:27	<merijn>	@hackage timeit
12:36:27	<lambdabot>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/timeit
12:38:51	<ADG1089__>	merijn: this seems like a good bet. Let me check if it accurate atleast upto .01 sec
12:39:09	<merijn>	depends how you define accurate
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12:39:19	<merijn>	it's certainly precise up to 0.01 second
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12:39:45	<merijn>	It might be accurate up to that time too, since that's rather slow
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12:40:13	<merijn>	Mind you, it only tracks CPU time, not wall clock
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12:44:28	<ADG1089__>	merijn: All my programs as mostly cpu-bound so almost no IO
12:45:16	<ADG1089__>	plus i can use sed to do `s/main =/main = timeIt ./`
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12:46:28	<ADG1089>	.
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12:48:14	<zq>	what exactly is a raw monad?
12:48:24	<zq>	ie https://hackage.haskell.org/package/shake-0.19.4/docs/src/Development.Shake.Internal.Core.Monad.html#RAW
12:48:33	<zq>	wondering if this is a standard concept?
12:49:16	<zq>	is this some kind of free monad + interpreter?
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12:56:36	<timCF>	Hello! Is it possible to put any constraint to type/kind paramters in forall expression? For example `forall a b m.` where I want `b` to be one of few possible types/kinds?
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12:57:20	<merijn>	timCF: You can use typefamilies + constraintkinds for nearly arbitrary restrictions
12:57:42	<merijn>	timCF: See, for example: https://gist.github.com/merijn/6130082
12:58:09	<merijn>	timCF: Which allows any type that is not ()/Int
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13:01:01	<timCF>	merijn: looks very cool) Thanks!
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14:22:15	<adamCS>	I've got an N-dimensional matrix of a, in the form [([Int],a)], where the [Int] is the N-dimensional index where element a is stored. I need a nested vector representation, for JSON output via Aeson. I see how to nest it one index at a time: f :: [([Int],a)] -> [([Int], [a])]. But trying to write a function to nest it "all the way" runs into a "what is the return type?" issue. Any way around this without
14:22:16	<adamCS>	dependent-types-style shenanigans?
14:24:15	<opqdonut>	write a data type
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14:24:42	<opqdonut>	you can just do something like `data Matrix a = Vector [Matrix a] \| Element a`
14:24:59	<opqdonut>	but if you want guarantees that all the Elements are at the same depth, you can do some tricks
14:25:31	<opqdonut>	(just a sec while I recall how the trick works)
14:27:10	<adamCS>	opqdonut: Thanks!
14:27:55	<opqdonut>	`data Matrix a = Element a \| Dimension (Matrix [a])`
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14:28:01	<opqdonut>	I think that's the trick
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14:29:55	<adamCS>	opqdonut: So then I convert my un-nested "a"s to Matrix (as elements), nest them, and then somehow convert the nested thing back to nested vectors? I can try to do that...
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14:34:23	<opqdonut>	adamCS: https://gist.github.com/opqdonut/03fd44c26b260a90ea9f6447a7243977
14:34:47	<opqdonut>	adamCS: you can't go to just nested lists like [[[a]]] unless you know how many dimensions you have at compile-time
14:35:12	<opqdonut>	adamCS: but making an Aeson instance for Matrix that just outputs lists of lists in JSON should be easy
14:35:41	<adamCS>	opqdonut: I don't know at compile time.
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14:35:58	<adamCS>	I mean, I guess I could. I need to think about it.
14:36:15	<adamCS>	All I need is the json, though.
14:36:17	<opqdonut>	yeah
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14:36:46	<opqdonut>	I'm writing the [([Int],a)] -> Matrix a function now, for fun
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14:37:24	<adamCS>	Right, just needing JSON is what makes me think it's possible.
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15:02:50	<opqdonut>	adamCS: I updated my gist with an implementation of [([Int],a)] -> Matrix a: https://gist.github.com/opqdonut/03fd44c26b260a90ea9f6447a7243977
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15:03:46	<opqdonut>	error handling and robustness could be improved (e.g in case the [Int]s aren't of the same length, or not ordered, or the matrix is actually sparse, etc.)
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15:24:01	<adamCS>	opqdonut: Thanks! This is super helpful!
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18:13:07	<carbolymer>	If I'm only building a list, via prepending elements (~500k elements), does it make sense to use a mutable collection to gain performance here?
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18:13:35	<carbolymer>	prepending i.e. list constructor `:`
18:13:38	<monochrom>	It depends on what you use the collection for after it's built.
18:13:50	<carbolymer>	only search, no further modifications
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18:14:03	<maerwald>	search is terribly inefficient
18:14:14	<monochrom>	Will it be binary search? Hashed search? FIFO search? LIFO search?
18:14:31	<monochrom>	In fact, "search" is terribly ambiguous, too. :)
18:14:54	<carbolymer>	ok, so running isInfixOf over all elements ;]
18:15:03	<carbolymer>	Data.Bytesting.Char8.isInfixOf
18:15:40	<carbolymer>	maerwald: you mean search in general, or lists for search?
18:15:47	<maerwald>	lists for search
18:16:35	<monochrom>	Alright, I don't know how to do better than exhaustive search, so may as well just list and prepend.
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18:16:43	<carbolymer>	so which datastructure would be better for substring searches?
18:16:58	<monochrom>	I'm sure there is a better way and I'm sure it's in an obscure paper from those algorithm people.
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18:17:30	<monochrom>	KMP or Boyer-Moore is better for substring searches.
18:18:00	<monochrom>	But here you are one level above.
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18:18:18	<carbolymer>	actually, KMP or Boyer-Moore perform few times slower than Rabin-Karp in `isInfixOf`
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18:18:34	<carbolymer>	or `stringsearch` has inefficient implementations
18:19:04	<monochrom>	Here your level is "I have n strings, find one that is a superstring of blah".
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18:19:15	<dolio>	Those all build some kind of other structure from the string, right? It's probably better to build that structure than a list.
18:19:35	<carbolymer>	dolio: actually it's the opposite, they build structure from the needle
18:19:42	<carbolymer>	and I'm wondering how to store haystacks
18:19:48	<maerwald>	carbolymer: is the needle known at list construction time?
18:19:52	<carbolymer>	no
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18:20:01	<maerwald>	the length?
18:20:22	<carbolymer>	of the needle? 3-15 chars, haystacks? probably up to 300 chars
18:20:49	<maerwald>	ok, 3 is too low to have any gains for pre-filtering
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18:21:31	<carbolymer>	yeah
18:22:05	<maerwald>	maybe we can parallelize the search?
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18:25:02	<maerwald>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/parallel-3.2.1.1/docs/Control-Parallel-Strategies.html#v:evalListN
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18:25:09	<Ebin>	hai
18:25:15	<Ebin>	is any one here
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18:25:27	<maerwald>	sth like that... never used the lib
18:25:44	<Ebin>	i am interested in know more about haskell
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18:26:03	<Ebin>	can anyone share your experience
18:26:09	<Ebin>	haskell
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18:26:18	<Ebin>	how long it take to learn haskell
18:26:34	<Ebin>	is it good form production level projects
18:26:41	<Ebin>	can any one help me ..
18:26:47	<maerwald>	Ebin: what kind of project?
18:26:49	<dolio>	carbolymer: A trie, then?
18:27:30	<dolio>	At each stage you have a suffix trie, and want to compute the suffix trie from prepending one character?
18:27:46	<tomsmeding>	carbolymer: is the haystack kind of random in distribution?
18:27:52	<Ebin>	nothing like that i do not planning to do any project, i am interested in learning a function language two chooses in frond of me is elixir and haskell
18:28:15	<tomsmeding>	oh wait you said that the needle isn't known at construction time, hmm
18:28:21	<maerwald>	Ebin: haskell probably exposes you to more concepts... elixir might be easier to learn (not sure though)
18:28:25	<monochrom>	A trie shines for prefixes only.
18:28:29	<Ebin>	my agenda is to learn a functional programming langauge
18:28:54	<monochrom>	err suffixes only, in that case
18:29:03	<maerwald>	Ebin: there aren't many purely functional programming languages and even less that are useful. Elixir is functional, but not purly functional
18:29:22	<maerwald>	so if you're into that, haskell is a good choice
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18:29:44	<Ebin>	i am a computer engineering student ,while learning programming paradigms, i know more about function programming languages which are good at concurrency control
18:29:56	<carbolymer>	maerwald: nope, I can utilize one core ;) parallelization would be too easy
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18:30:26	<Ebin>	did Haskell have any package manager like python pip
18:30:31	<maerwald>	Ebin: yeah
18:30:33	<dolio>	But `isInfixOf` just searches for isPrefixOf in a list of suffixes.
18:30:47	<tomsmeding>	carbolymer: okay my question stands, is the haystack quite random? If so, while constructing store the suffix _sums_ of the haystack (can be done in constant time per pushed element, of course). Then when you know the needle's length, say N, compute all the sums of substrings of length N, and also compute the sum of the characters in the needle. Then only check actual substring equality on the
18:30:48	<tomsmeding>	positions where the "hashes" match
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18:31:30	<tomsmeding>	if there's a low probability that the "hashes" match in general, this could reduce time to little more than linear in the haystack, instead linear in haystack times needle
18:31:35	<dolio>	Oh, I guess the problem is that you don't know which suffixes to modify.
18:31:38	<tomsmeding>	s/instead/instead of/
18:31:43	<carbolymer>	tomsmeding: I suspect it's random
18:31:48	<tomsmeding>	"suspect"
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18:32:03	<carbolymer>	yeah, I can not know, because I don't know the dataset upfront
18:32:10	<monochrom>	Nice hashing scheme, tomsmeding.
18:32:18	<tomsmeding>	if you need guaranteed performance, my scheme won't work :)
18:32:42	<monochrom>	Just use a cryptographic hash, then everything is really really random. :)
18:33:02	<tomsmeding>	and substring search via homomorphic encryption?
18:33:08	<tomsmeding>	yeah, that will speed it up :)
18:33:08	<monochrom>	haha
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18:33:52	<tomsmeding>	Ebin: the Haskell package manager works more like a Python virtualenv, not really globally like pip
18:34:08	<tomsmeding>	or, well, the haskell package managerS -- there are two in common usage
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18:35:02	<Ebin>	cabal
18:35:11	<tomsmeding>	stack is the other one
18:35:15	<Ebin>	is it good to start
18:35:21	<monochrom>	Yes.
18:35:47	<monochrom>	But where is sm[m] for a second opinion? >:)
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18:36:09	<maerwald>	There are more interesting things for newcomers to learn than about tooling wars
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18:36:38	<monochrom>	OK then, my third opinion.
18:36:52	<monochrom>	Ignore packages. Start with the interpreter ghci first.
18:37:07	sm[m]	appears!
18:37:27	<tomsmeding>	agree with maerwald
18:37:45	<Ebin>	ok
18:38:34	<monochrom>	But perhaps people know from other communities that tooling wars are nothing new.
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18:39:36	<maerwald>	If cabal v1 wasn't that buried in the cli, I'd still recommend that for beginners. It's sufficient.
18:39:36	<carbolymer>	tomsmeding: I'm trying to understand your algorithm - what do you mean by suffix sums?
18:39:58	<carbolymer>	tomsmeding: sums of all possible suffixes of haystack?
18:40:00	<tomsmeding>	carbolymer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefix_sum but then suffixes instead of prefixes :p
18:40:00	<sm[m]>	I would send Ebin straight to
18:40:00	<sm[m]>	@where htac
18:40:01	<lambdabot>	"Haskell Tutorial and Cookbook" by Mark Watson in 2017-09-04 at <https://leanpub.com/haskell-cookbook>
18:40:03	<tomsmeding>	carbolymer: yes
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18:40:17	<monochrom>	"buried in the cli" seems to be a widespread, entrenched, institutionalized problem.
18:40:19	<carbolymer>	thx for the link
18:40:54	<tomsmeding>	carbolymer: earlier you said that the length of the list would be ~500k, whereas later you said that the haystack would be ~300 chars; which is true? :p
18:41:13	<monochrom>	I was trying to use docker (and get by by learning the minimum) a few days ago. "docker --help" lists a million commands. For each command, "docker foo --help" lists a million knobs.
18:41:17	<carbolymer>	tomsmeding: both, I have 500k haystacks, each ~300 chars
18:41:20	geekosaur	assumes that means 500k count of 300-char strings
18:41:22	<Ebin>	is there any haskell related discord groups
18:41:27	<tomsmeding>	ooooh I see
18:41:36	<monochrom>	It drove home the strength of a proper GUI/TUI menu system.
18:41:37	<maerwald>	Ebin: there's a matrix channel
18:42:04	tomsmeding	thinks that changes carbolymer's problem
18:42:16	<carbolymer>	I think so
18:42:22	<carbolymer>	I need to do a lot of searches
18:42:28	<maerwald>	monochrom: I like git's difference between `-h` and `--help`
18:42:50	<maerwald>	but maybe that's too subtle
18:43:03	<monochrom>	Speaking of which, I'm thankful for "ghcup tui".
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18:43:34	<maerwald>	that would be hard to do for docker, I guess
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18:44:38	<maerwald>	grouping commands would already be of help: commands for images, for containers, insepction commands... like, what's your general motivation
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18:45:45	<maerwald>	`docker create` is for containers only... although it could be for everything...
18:45:53	<maerwald>	they didn't think of that
18:45:55	<geekosaur>	git handles this not too terribly
18:46:18	<tomsmeding>	carbolymer: have you tried a regex engine that constructs a finite state machine, I believe regex-tfda does?
18:46:20	<tomsmeding>	no joke
18:46:53	tomsmeding	wonders if it's worth JITing code given a particular needle
18:47:37	<carbolymer>	w8, ghc has jit?
18:47:48	<tomsmeding>	no :p
18:48:05	<carbolymer>	so how ? :D
18:48:08	<tomsmeding>	like, you could link to llvm
18:48:21	<tomsmeding>	which is not something you do in an evening :p
18:48:44	<tomsmeding>	there are haskell packages that wrap llvm into something usable from haskell
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18:49:40	<maerwald>	just send the list to google and let them search through it
18:50:10	<carbolymer>	tomsmeding: interesting
18:50:15	<maerwald>	I'm pretty sure there's a microservice for that :p
18:50:29	<carbolymer>	tomsmeding: you mean, regex-tfda builds FSM from search pattern?
18:51:08	<tomsmeding>	that's what all good regex engines do
18:51:31	<tomsmeding>	your regex is trivial -- just a simple string -- but that doesn't mean that building an FSM is not worth it
18:51:57	<tomsmeding>	regex-tdfa by the way, sorry typo
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18:52:52	<carbolymer>	yeah I found it
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19:09:06	<carbolymer>	tomsmeding: so far regex seems to be slower than isInfixOf, i haven't found how much yet ;)
19:09:19	<tomsmeding>	lol ok
19:09:33	<tomsmeding>	that's a weird failing of the regex engine though, I'd say
19:09:43	<sclv>	no, not really
19:10:00	<sclv>	direct functions like `isInfixOf` are almost always going to be superior to general purpose matchers
19:10:27	<sclv>	especially if you use something like bytestring or data.text where they have specialized algorithms for efficient string search
19:10:36	<sclv>	er substring search
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19:10:55	<tomsmeding>	fair point
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19:21:24	<tomsmeding>	carbolymer: in my testing with random strings on the strict bytestring algorithms in 'stringsearch', boyer-moore wins by far when compared with KMP, karp-rabin, DFA
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19:22:35	<tomsmeding>	(3 times as fast as KMP, 4 times as fast as DFA, 18 times as fast as karp-rabin)
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19:22:50	<carbolymer>	tomsmeding: interesting, what lengths of needles/haystacks, how many searches?
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19:23:18	<tomsmeding>	arrowsvc_: one search of a 15-byte needle in 500k bytestrings of length 300 each
19:23:29	<tomsmeding>	... how did that mention happen, sorry random person
19:23:31	<tomsmeding>	carbolymer: ^
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19:24:23	<carbolymer>	hmm
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19:24:50	<tomsmeding>	carbolymer: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/wjNVDkLI
19:25:08	<tomsmeding>	(using stringsearch, bytestring, random, criterion-measurement)
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19:26:00	<carbolymer>	tomsmeding: hmm, what about isInfixOf? ;)
19:26:04	<tomsmeding>	lol
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19:27:26	<maerwald>	BoyerMoore is fastest here
19:28:55	tomsmeding	noticed that I was using bytestring-0.11 instead of 0.12 so recompiling the world
19:29:13	tomsmeding	um, 0.10 instead of 0.11
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19:30:32	<maerwald>	compiled with -O1 BoyerMoore is even faster
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19:31:11	<maerwald>	carbolymer: this way you can cabal run the file: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/IRUOUSWJ
19:31:11	<tomsmeding>	boyermoore is faster than isInfixOf here, carbolymer
19:32:01	<carbolymer>	I'm trying to re-run your code
19:32:10	<carbolymer>	but using stack
19:32:15	<carbolymer>	so downloading ghc rn >.>
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19:32:45	tomsmeding	wonders how "using stack" became "so downloading ghc", presumably you already have a ghc you're using? :p
19:33:02	<maerwald>	stack downloads a ghc just in case :p
19:33:15	<carbolymer>	^ basically this ;)
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19:33:33	<tomsmeding>	only if you specify a LTS that uses a ghc you didn't already have, right?
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19:33:49	<tomsmeding>	I mean, stack bashing anytime, but this seems strange
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19:34:20	<Uniaika>	(not to be confused with stack smashing)
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19:36:13	<gentauro>	20:33 < tomsmeding> only if you specify a LTS that uses a ghc you didn't already have, right?
19:36:20	<gentauro>	indispensable for reproducible builds !!!
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19:36:43	<maerwald>	there are no reproducible builds in haskell either way
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19:36:50	gentauro	to be fair, that will always work on a system like debian and so, but not on `nixos` :(
19:36:55	<tomsmeding>	why does 'random' not have a list shuffle function
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19:36:57	<gentauro>	maerwald: there is
19:37:06	<gentauro>	I know how to, muahaha :)
19:37:07	<maerwald>	gentauro: it's impossible due to ghc issues
19:37:14	<maerwald>	it's not deterministic
19:37:17	<gentauro>	maerwald: nah
19:37:19	<maerwald>	yes
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19:37:23	<gentauro>	maerwald: it is
19:37:24	<gentauro>	xD
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19:37:43	<maerwald>	https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/4012
19:37:45	<maerwald>	no
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19:38:04	<gentauro>	`(*) GHC is not fully deterministic yet, but if you keep to the following setup: stack + LTS - Data.Unique, you shouldn’t have any problems. For more info, please look into the ongoing work in order to make GHC support fully deterministic builds.` https://uniprocess.org/builds.html
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19:38:13	<sclv>	random is for generating random values. list shuffle is one of many things you can _do_ with random values
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19:38:25	<sclv>	the "standard" good enough shuffle is a one liner
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19:38:36	<sclv>	just zip your values with a list of random reals and sort
19:38:45	<tomsmeding>	sclv: fair point
19:38:46	<maerwald>	"you shouldn'h have any problems"?
19:38:48	<gentauro>	maerwald: it helped to talk to `Mathieu Boespflug` ;)
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19:39:10	<gentauro>	who is the founder of Tweag.IO
19:39:12	mceier_	is now known as mceier
19:39:20	<maerwald>	that needs more information
19:39:24	<gentauro>	s/.IO/IO/
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19:39:48	<gentauro>	maerwald: I will copy/pasta my stack.yaml file. W8 a second
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19:40:51	<gentauro>	maerwald: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/hBrqzcpFFS/
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19:41:24	<maerwald>	gentauro: how does that fix the GHC bug?
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19:41:25	<gentauro>	I `lock` my projects to a specific github commit from `nix`
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19:42:25	<superstar64>	rate my black magic https://gist.github.com/Superstar64/8fd82a5e1e59ec36831a0c05e61936cd
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19:43:00	<gentauro>	maerwald: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/bR9Jh3jG8b/
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19:43:14	<gentauro>	maerwald: starts at line 74
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19:43:36	<gentauro>	my build on a `nixos` can be reproduced on an `ubuntu` or `debian` with the same resulting `bits`
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19:43:44	<gentauro>	I find that kind of `nice` :)
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19:44:30	<superstar64>	printing functions is neat, here's `(\|\|)` for example
19:44:30	<hseg>	superstar64: cool
19:44:32	<superstar64>	`let {f x \| x == False = let {f x \| x == False = False;f x \| x == True = True;} in f;f x \| x == True = let {f x \| x == False = True;f x \| x == True = True;} in f;} in f`
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19:44:46	<superstar64>	here's flip
19:44:48	<superstar64>	`let {f x \| x == let {f x \| x == () = let {f x \| x == () = ();} in f;} in f = let {f x \| x == () = let {f x \| x == () = ();} in f;} in f;} in f`
19:45:15	<maerwald>	gentauro: ah, so -dinitial-unique=0 -dunique-increment=1
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19:45:19	<hseg>	might want to replace 'all id' with 'and' there
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19:45:25	<[exa]>	superstar64: finitists rejoice
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19:46:05	<maerwald>	gentauro: looking at the GHC ticket, that doesn't seem to be the only source though
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19:46:50	<gentauro>	maerwald: those were the hints I got from Mathieu ;)
19:47:01	<maerwald>	this should be discussed in the ticket
19:47:30	<gentauro>	maerwald: agree. We should let Tweag I/O work on this.
19:47:43	<gentauro>	who will sponsor? M$? FB?
19:47:44	<gentauro>	:)
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19:49:36	<maerwald>	Do those flags have any side effects?
19:49:51	<maerwald>	Or can I just stomp them into all my cabal files
19:49:57	<gentauro>	maerwald: which flags?
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19:50:07	<maerwald>	-dinitial-unique=0 -dunique-increment=1
19:50:23	<hseg>	superstar64: note that the Enum instance blows the stack pretty quickly
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19:51:02	<gentauro>	maerwald: they haven't for me, but my code is not running in `prod` (yet) so … I'm probably not the best to respond this :\|
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19:51:23	<hseg>	nm, if you keep the domain small enough it doesn't matter
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19:52:34	<superstar64>	i'm fully aware my code is awful
19:52:46	<hseg>	nw
19:52:56	<hseg>	it works, it's cool
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19:55:14	<hseg>	just realized by staring at the free theorem for [a] -> [a] that the function I wanted is impossible to write in general
19:55:36	<hseg>	(basically, wanted to have a general `On` combinator
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19:56:35	<sclv>	:t on
19:56:36	<lambdabot>	(b -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> a -> c
19:56:46	<hseg>	no, as in
19:56:48	<hseg>	:t sort
19:56:49	<lambdabot>	Ord a => [a] -> [a]
19:56:50	<hseg>	:t sortOn
19:56:51	<lambdabot>	Ord b => (a -> b) -> [a] -> [a]
19:57:17	<hseg>	since morally speaking a function [a] -> [a] only rearranges its inputs
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19:57:41	<sclv>	right but sort isn't of that type, its got a typeclass constraint
19:57:47	<sclv>	which means it has different free theorems
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19:58:11	<hseg>	y. wasn't referring to on that you mentioned
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19:58:53	<hseg>	wanted sth like :: (a ->b) -> (c b => f b -> f b) -> (c a => f a -> f a)
19:59:18	<hseg>	except in that full generality, it probably is impossible
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19:59:44	<sclv>	you can get close with coerce and newtypes
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20:00:24	<sclv>	and like `reflection` type stuff
20:00:32	<hseg>	hrm. wrap/unwrap a newtype that uses the projection for the instances?
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20:01:56	<hseg>	that works except when you need to synthesise new data
20:02:07	<hseg>	so e.g. no Monoid instance
20:02:09	<sclv>	https://www.tweag.io/blog/2017-12-21-reflection-tutorial/
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20:03:40	<sclv>	this has all been wrapped up in a usable way somewhere iirc but its not all in e.g. the reflection package directly. i think in practice people find it irritating to use, but i know it was all worked out at one point
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20:04:33	<hseg>	y...
20:05:06	<hseg>	actually, i think i was burned by this the previous time, but this specific usecase i want could actually work
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20:06:11	<hseg>	(specifically, given rotateMinimum :: Ord a => [a] -> [a], i'd like to rotateMinimumOn (scanl1 (+))
20:06:31	<hseg>	which will make the output list satisfy all (>=0)
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20:07:23	<hseg>	hrm. it seems that as long as i only ever have the projected data in negative position this can work
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20:08:01	<hseg>	which makes sense -- if you have data in positive position, you start having to worry about how to combain the various projections
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21:17:35	<carbolymer>	tomsmeding: that's weird, in your synthetic benchmark boyer-moore wins, but in my case it's 7.8 times slower than `isInfixOf`
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21:18:02	<carbolymer>	tomsmeding: also, this karp-rabin from stringsearch is 4 times slower than in `isInfixOf`
21:18:42	<carbolymer>	I give up for today ;]
21:18:47	<carbolymer>	tomsmeding: thanks!
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21:38:45	<hydroxon1um>	ghcup question: does export PATH="$HOME/.cabal/bin:$HOME/.ghcup/bin:$PATH" still make sense, when `cabal` is already available in $HOME/.ghcup/bin ?
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21:39:54	<c_wraith>	nah. if you're good with ghcup managing cabal, it's fine to remove that. (I'm good with ghcup managing cabal on my systems)
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21:40:41	<geekosaur>	well,, cabal v2-install still installs to ~/.cabal/bin doesn't it? or does ghcup make a config that writes to ~/.ghcup/bin?
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21:41:09	<geekosaur>	granting that v2-install is somewhat risky, I think that's mostly for libraries as opposed to executables
21:41:59	<hydroxon1um>	c_wraith I was confused that ghcup has a feature to
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21:42:35	<hydroxon1um>	set the cabal version, but the `$HOME/.cabal/bin` essentially blocked it. Thanks for the advice!
21:43:06	<c_wraith>	oh, geekosaur is right about where cabal-installed binaries end up.
21:43:29	<geekosaur>	so I'd swap those two PATH entries so ghcup controls cabal
21:43:55	<geekosaur>	and maybe remove ~/.cabal/bin/cabal
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21:47:00	<gentauro>	xD
21:47:03	<gentauro>	ups
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21:49:26	<hydroxon1um>	Thanks again. It all makes sense now.
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23:00:57	<Guest20912>	hi
23:01:46	<Axman6>	carbolymer: Time to use https://hackage.haskell.org/package/unamb-0.2.7/docs/Data-Unamb.html and race all implementations at once!
23:01:49	<Axman6>	Guest20912: hello!
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23:03:33	<carbolymer>	Axman6: what is this?
23:03:50	<Guest20912>	hey guys
23:03:53	<Guest20912>	how are you
23:04:18	<Guest20912>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/unamb-0.2.7/docs/Data-Unamb.html what this link about
23:04:24	×	bergey` quits (~user@107.181.19.30) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
23:04:38	<Axman6>	it's documentation for a haskell library
23:05:08	<Guest20912>	anyone worked with YAML here
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23:05:19	<monochrom>	No.
23:05:24	<Axman6>	Yes.
23:05:27	<monochrom>	This is not a YAML channel.
23:05:47	<monochrom>	inb4 This is not a directory service either.
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23:06:24	<Guest20912>	it was just a question monochrom i get that
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23:07:07	<Axman6>	Do you have any questions about Haskell?
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23:07:54	<Axman6>	I guess not
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23:34:36	<monochrom>	Yikes, the Yoneda lemma is intuitive in retrospect. I buried my head too deeply in the formal game.
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23:35:46	<monochrom>	Someone gives you "phi :: forall r. (Int -> r) -> [r]" for example. What can phi possibly do without breaking parametricity or naturality?
23:36:54	<monochrom>	It doesn't know what r is, hell it doesn't even know what to do with the Int->r function you give it, except to call it on a few secret Ints and make that [r] list.
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23:37:36	<monochrom>	So it has to go like "phi g = [g secret_number_1, g secret_number_2, g secret_number 3]".
23:37:59	<monochrom>	In that sense, "forall r. (Int -> r) -> [r]" doesn't exceed [Int].
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23:38:56	<monochrom>	[] is just an example. You can imagine extending this to other data structures, and other functors.
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23:45:41	<monochrom>	I'm going to put it on the exam. >:)
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23:49:15	<hpc>	maybe it'd be easier to remember if it had a descriptive name
23:49:42	<hpc>	if it was "the parametricity suchandsuch", i would barely even have to think about what it is to understand it
23:50:11	Axman6	phi :: (forall r. Rational -> r) -> Tree r
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23:50:41	<Axman6>	hmm, those brackets are probablt wrong - does it make a difference in this case?
23:51:57	<solidus-river>	hey all, i'm using haskell-language-server for the first time and just realized it needs to be built with the exact version of ghc that my project is using. whats the best strategy to support working on projects with different ghc targets at the same time? (e.g.) is there a way to build for 8.3 and 8.10 and conditionally use one or the other via a hie.yaml file?
23:52:17	<Axman6>	did you install it using ghcup?
23:52:38	<Axman6>	8.3 seems like a version you definitely shouldn't be using :)
23:55:03	<solidus-river>	i'm using stack, the projects i'm working on for now are all using 8.10.4 but the installer targetd 8.8.4
23:55:32	<solidus-river>	not a big problem for now since everythings on 8.10.4, but i'm not sure how smoothly ghc upgrades go or when it might be a problem and was trying to get ahead of it. :)
23:56:13	<monochrom>	Axman6: The parentheses matter a lot. forall r. (Rational -> r) -> Tree r. That would be equiv to Tree Rational.
23:56:14	<solidus-river>	recompiling hls for 8.10.4 (using stack) but it looks like one wrapper bin will be generated (although the others are versioned). maybe the wrapper targets the correct version if compiled?
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23:57:46	<Axman6>	I remember having tro go through those hopps in the past but haven't needed to since I started using ghcup to install HLS - in the past you'd do ./install 8.8.4 8.10.4 to build versions which matched GHCs and use the wrapper to choose the right one
23:59:41	<solidus-river>	sounds like wrapper has a parameter i should be able to use then, didn't see anything with --help but digging more at the git docs. maybe it will be awesome and just choose the right bin based on the project version if one is available :)

All times are in UTC on 2021-03-10.