Logs on 2021-03-11 (freenode/#haskell)
| 00:00:10 | <Axman6> | the wrapper is supposed to just pick the correct thing for you |
| 00:00:15 | <Axman6> | that's like it's entire point |
| 00:03:25 | <solidus-river> | then the world makes sense ,,o.O,, |
| 00:04:01 | <solidus-river> | it looks like it did just that too, this is slick. |
| 00:08:13 | <monochrom> | Nice. |
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| 00:18:08 | <Axman6> | Haskell tooling is getting so nice these days. the HLS peeps are doing such a great job |
| 00:18:09 | <joebobjoe> | is there a tool that can infer a json schema from a json file? |
| 00:18:17 | <Axman6> | yes! |
| 00:18:22 | <joebobjoe> | really? |
| 00:18:25 | <Axman6> | aeson-autotype |
| 00:18:28 | <Axman6> | IIR |
| 00:18:29 | <Axman6> | C |
| 00:18:33 | <joebobjoe> | thanks! |
| 00:19:02 | <Axman6> | not JSON Schema though, though I think there might be something for that too |
| 00:19:17 | <Axman6> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/json-autotype |
| 00:19:32 | <joebobjoe> | thank you |
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| 00:20:45 | <slack1256> | Axman6: Any guide on how to integrate HLS on nixos at hand? |
| 00:20:51 | <Axman6> | no |
| 00:20:59 | <slack1256> | I am a veteran from the ghc-mod days... |
| 00:21:04 | <Axman6> | I've never touched NixOS, sorry :) |
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| 00:21:46 | <Axman6> | This looks pretty useful: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aeson-schemas not sure I've come across it before |
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| 00:25:39 | <joebobjoe> | is there a haskeller's alternative to the json processing tool jq? |
| 00:25:46 | <joebobjoe> | sometimes I wish I had more power |
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| 00:40:07 | <Axman6> | there's lens-aeson which gets you a long way |
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| 00:40:51 | <Axman6> | and the package I just posted gives you jq style accessors using quasiquotes |
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| 03:21:58 | <hololeap> | i asked this in here before, but does anyone know of a package that has a version of the Endo monoid but for any Category? |
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| 03:28:05 | <slack1256> | I have a long running program I would like to profile. All options on the RTS write the .prof files at the end of the execution. I would like it to keep runnning and only take snapshots when told. What are my options? |
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| 03:39:16 | <qih> | What is the best method of installing Haskell_Latest & Stack on Debian 10? Package manager or via 'Get Haskell Stack'? |
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| 03:40:26 | <koz_> | Debian anything is crufty and antique. Definitely get it from _outside_ the package manager if you wanna develop. |
| 03:40:34 | <koz_> | (for like, system executables it depends) |
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| 03:41:45 | <qih> | koz_: fair call, thank you. |
| 03:42:06 | <qih> | Option B it is. |
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| 03:47:14 | <qih> | koz_: The Haskell Stack install said to append the /home/$user/.local/bin to the front of the $PATH, is this critical? |
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| 03:47:51 | <koz_> | qih: If you do 'which stack' do you get a path to an executable? |
| 03:47:56 | <koz_> | If no, then yes; if yes, the no. |
| 03:48:01 | <koz_> | s/the /then / |
| 03:48:11 | <qih> | /usr/local/bin/stack <= yes |
| 03:48:25 | <qih> | Hahaha, got it, ty |
| 03:49:01 | <koz_> | This is where stack puts executables via 'stack install' I think. |
| 03:49:10 | <koz_> | But if you don't plan to use 'stack install', it doesn't matter. |
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| 03:50:02 | <qih> | Well I do plan to use 'stack install', so then I am sorted. |
| 03:50:41 | <koz_> | Yeah, if you wanna use 'stack install', you want /home/$user/.local/bin on your path. |
| 03:50:50 | <qih> | Right, got it. |
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| 03:58:08 | <qih> | Interesting, fixed the path, sourced it, ran 'stack repl', and it pulled in the latest GHCI package. |
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| 04:37:54 | <zebrag> | monochrom: The question you formulated related to Yoneda Lemma got me confused for a while. I think the wording "secret number" had too much of an air of mystery. And/or I thought you were meaning something else, I was confused. (you know, what about replacing "secret" by "magic", hum, just kidding.) |
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| 04:40:22 | <zebrag> | Beside that, yes, a good question, I mean, very enlightening. |
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| 04:40:58 | <monochrom> | I fully intended mystery. |
| 04:41:08 | <zebrag> | yes I understand that |
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| 04:57:20 | <ADG1089__> | getting wierd errors while compiling: `error: undefined reference to 'unorderedzmcontainerszm0zi2zi13zi0zm3awuPgUx2yvAACRZZkw6am3_DataziHashMapziInternalziArray_undefinedElem_closure'` |
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| 05:08:54 | <solidus-river> | exit |
| 05:08:58 | <solidus-river> | :X |
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| 05:37:12 | Lycurgus | wishes peoples would quit the magic and magisteria and other bs as if and because real, not superstition is the way |
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| 05:40:06 | <edwardk> | monochrom: spent an hour or so porting coyoneda onto 'distributive' with topos/tapas just now actually. |
| 05:41:20 | <edwardk> | https://github.com/ekmett/distributive/blob/1/src/Data/Distributive/Coyoneda.hs#L29 whee |
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| 05:44:05 | <tapas> | wheeeeee |
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| 07:16:32 | <qih> | I just installed 'Bench' using Stack, went fine, works. |
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| 07:17:42 | <qih> | I thought I just installed 'Turtle' using Stack, was very fast. The wrote a simple Hello_World.hs, execute and now the system is pulling in GHC, Cabal packages etc. What gives? |
| 07:17:54 | <qih> | s/The/Then |
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| 07:26:27 | <qih> | NFI what happened there, however it is all installed correctly. |
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| 07:40:47 | <tomsmeding> | qih: with what stackage LTS did you install Bench and Turtle, and with what stackage LTS are you writing your hello world? |
| 07:41:22 | <tomsmeding> | stack downloads whatever it needs to run your stuff at the stackage version you specified, up to and including downloading GHC |
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| 07:56:23 | <tomjaguarpaw> | I was astonished to discover that this is allowed without BangPatterns: example = let !x = error "x" in () |
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| 07:58:43 | <MarcelineVQ> | not in my ghc it's not :> |
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| 08:02:13 | <tomjaguarpaw> | Interesting. Seems to have been allowed in 8.4 but not from 8.6 onwards |
| 08:02:16 | <tomjaguarpaw> | Maybe a bug |
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| 08:48:46 | <invaser> | Hey, anyone having problems with latest haskell-language-server version on VSCode? |
| 08:50:08 | <invaser> | I have a message "Downloading haskell-language-server 1.0.0 for GHC 8.10.3" pop up and stay |
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| 08:57:09 | <tomjaguarpaw> | How do you get ghci to print the time taken and bytes allocated after every command? |
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| 08:58:32 | <Boomerang> | :set +s |
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| 09:16:06 | <pjb> | esch |
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| 09:22:25 | <ukari> | is the typeclass a better practise than the type synonym when the signature needs to be simplied? https://gist.github.com/ukari/527531c4e23de7ad5d6d94613bbed9d2 |
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| 09:34:06 | <lortabac> | ukari: the simplest solution is probably to define a synonym for the context only (it requires ConstraintKinds) |
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| 09:38:29 | <ed12> | hi guys im trying to write a function that gives me the second argument if the first statement is true or the third argument if the first is false |
| 09:38:41 | <ed12> | this is what I have so far |
| 09:38:43 | <ed12> | (&&) :: Bool -> Int -> Int -> Int |
| 09:38:44 | <ed12> | (&&) a b c | a == True = b | a == False = c |
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| 09:39:17 | <ed12> | e.g. (4 > 7) 5 10 would give 10 |
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| 09:39:30 | <ed12> | im getting errors |
| 09:39:32 | <dibblego> | \p t f -> if p then t else f |
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| 09:42:46 | <merijn> | ed12: "a == True" is just "a" |
| 09:43:33 | <merijn> | dibblego: That's just bool with its arguments flipped ;) |
| 09:44:45 | <ed12> | and then just "not a" for false? |
| 09:44:58 | <ed12> | sorry im very new don't really understand it yet |
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| 09:51:45 | <shad0w_> | i can't seem to use my existing gitlab account with the gitlab haskell instance? |
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| 09:52:36 | <maerwald> | shad0w_: you mean gitlab.com? |
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| 09:52:48 | <shad0w_> | gitlab.haskell.com |
| 09:52:50 | <shad0w_> | or org |
| 09:53:02 | <maerwald> | shad0w_: what existing account are you talking about? |
| 09:53:12 | <shad0w_> | i already have a gitlab.com account |
| 09:53:20 | <shad0w_> | i want to clone GHC |
| 09:53:24 | <lortabac> | ed12: try choosing a different name, (&&) is already defined in Prelude |
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| 09:53:33 | <maerwald> | shad0w_: gitlab.haskell.org is unaffiliated with gitlab.com |
| 09:53:44 | <maerwald> | it's a self-managed gitlab instance |
| 09:53:58 | <shad0w_> | but it tells me my email is in use. |
| 09:54:13 | <shad0w_> | : p |
| 09:54:25 | <merijn> | maerwald: I think you can authenticate with gitlab.haskell.org using github/gitlab accounts |
| 09:56:00 | <merijn> | shad0w_: Try a password reset if it's in use? |
| 09:56:09 | <shad0w_> | merijn: yea, it was. |
| 09:56:35 | <shad0w_> | guess i wanted to clone it in the past but didn't : P |
| 09:57:51 | <maerwald> | merijn: only gitub |
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| 10:16:03 | <ADG1089__> | ghc -o ... -i ... <flags> <source file> . How can I build a profiling binary without using cabal/stack? |
| 10:16:26 | <ADG1089__> | added -prof -fprop-auto but it says I need to isntall the profiling libraries for package dependencies |
| 10:16:50 | <merijn> | ADG1089__: Well, you gotta install all the profiling libraries |
| 10:17:07 | <merijn> | ADG1089__: Which is another way of saying "use cabal/stack" |
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| 10:18:37 | <ADG1089__> | merijn: cabal install --enable-profiling <dependency> ? |
| 10:19:09 | <merijn> | ADG1089__: If you build your code with cabal then --enable-profiling will automatically install all the needed versions |
| 10:19:40 | <merijn> | ADG1089__: If you want to manually update/install dependencies...well, then you're mostly out of luck, because that workflow isn't really supported |
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| 10:21:55 | <tomjaguarpaw> | Boomerang: thanks! |
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| 10:24:55 | <nshepperd2> | https://github.com/nshepperd/cabbage installs profiling libraries by default |
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| 10:25:25 | <nshepperd2> | come to think of it, it also does --library-profiling-detail=all-functions by default which i'm not sure is a good idea |
| 10:26:06 | <merijn> | I mean, if you set profiling true in ~/.cabal/config that works too |
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| 10:27:35 | <merijn> | But "I don't wanna use stack/cabal" is not something that's actively supported by anyone and I doubt cabbage is acceptable to anyone who doesn't wanna use cabal/stack :) |
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| 10:29:55 | <tomsmeding> | ADG1089__: how are your system dependencies installed? Did you build them yourself or did they come from a system package manager? |
| 10:30:18 | <tomsmeding> | (with system dependencies I meant haskell dependencies...) |
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| 10:30:53 | <tomsmeding> | If you built them yourself, well, you need to build their profiling versions too; if they came from a system package manager (arch linux?), then don't do that :p |
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| 10:36:17 | <tomjaguarpaw> | q |
| 10:36:19 | <nshepperd2> | i think 90% of not wanting to use cabal/stack is just not wanting to write foo.cabal files all the time, which i what i wrote cabbage for |
| 10:36:59 | <nshepperd2> | that is, just being able to invoke ghc like a normal program |
| 10:37:44 | <nshepperd2> | yeah, never install haskell libraries from a system package manager, if you do that you will cry |
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| 10:51:57 | <ADG1089__> | what is the difference between xyz.cabal and cabal.project? |
| 10:52:56 | <nshepperd2> | cabal.project is for local configuration of how to build things |
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| 10:53:10 | <nshepperd2> | 'local' as in you don't check it into your source code repository |
| 10:53:38 | <nshepperd2> | stuff like "i want to build this with profiling and optimization level 2" |
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| 10:55:30 | <nshepperd2> | xyz.cabal is the official information like the list of dependencies and module names and other stuff which is sorta part of the source code |
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| 10:57:00 | <merijn> | ADG1089__: xyz.cabal defines a package and its dependencies, cabal.project defines a specific build configuration of (one or more packages) on one specific machine, possibly overriding stuff from the cabal file |
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| 11:04:50 | <ADG1089__> | nice. |
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| 13:28:27 | <merijn> | Is there a convenient operator for applying a function only to non-empty lists? I guess not? |
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| 13:30:14 | <fendor> | merijn, depending on your usage, maybe https://hackage.haskell.org/package/relude-0.7.0.0/docs/Relude-List-NonEmpty.html#v:whenNotNull ? |
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| 13:31:04 | <merijn> | fendor: My usage is "in projects that are not picking up too many dependencies, let alone custom preludes" ;) |
| 13:31:32 | <merijn> | I was just wondering if there was something nicer than "case foo of [] -> []; xs -> bar xs" |
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| 13:32:57 | <fendor> | that's reasonable |
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| 13:50:05 | <tomsmeding> | :t \f -> maybe [] f . Data.List.NonEmpty.nonEmpty |
| 13:50:08 | <lambdabot> | (NonEmpty a1 -> [a2]) -> [a1] -> [a2] |
| 13:50:19 | <tomsmeding> | though "something nicer" is debatable merijn |
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| 14:06:15 | <jollygood2> | . |
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| 14:07:15 | <geekosaur> | ! |
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| 15:05:42 | <alexandros-liaro> | hi there! I want to process a family of mutually recursive datatypes. From skimming through it seems that most interesting libraries are multirec, compdata and generics-mrsop |
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| 15:06:42 | <alexandros-liaro> | from my understanding multirec and generics-mrsop auto-generate the HFunctor and then one writes algebras using the auto-generated representation (which is awkward since I mostly want to write algebras) |
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| 15:08:08 | <alexandros-liaro> | compdata seems to support writing the HFunctor data type directly and it can auto derive the HFunctor instance directly. This means one writes algebras using the HFunctor datatype directly instead of some intermediate representation. |
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| 15:09:51 | <alexandros-liaro> | so eg I want to write the open recursion HFunctor GADT and automatically make it an HFunctor, HFoldable, HTraversable, ShowHF etc. |
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| 15:10:25 | <alexandros-liaro> | is this possible with the multirec/generics-mrsop packages or must I write algebras using the auto-generated HFunctor representation? |
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| 15:10:56 | <alexandros-liaro> | my goal is to reduce boilerplate as much as possible since my AST actually has around 20 different node types |
| 15:11:04 | <ADG1089__> | cabal run is v2-run or v1-run? |
| 15:11:14 | <merijn> | ADG1089__: Depends on your version |
| 15:11:27 | <ADG1089__> | 3.4.0 |
| 15:11:28 | <merijn> | ADG1089__: In 3.x run is v2-run, before 3.0 it's v1-run |
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| 15:11:49 | <alexandros-liaro> | or is there perhaps another alternative I am not aware of ? |
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| 15:15:51 | <ADG1089__> | ok then there's a bug in cabal: https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/7325 |
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| 16:25:03 | <hololeap> | is there a way to link to a module on hackage where it always goes to the latest version of the package? |
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| 16:34:17 | <infinisi1> | hololeap: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base/docs/Control-Arrow.html |
| 16:35:29 | <mikoto-chan> | How do I debug failed cabal installations as a noob? I'm trying to install a package and cabal says it can't find a dependency when the correct version is already installed |
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| 16:36:46 | <hololeap> | infinisi1: thanks |
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| 16:39:16 | <merijn> | mikoto-chan: Which version of cabal install? |
| 16:39:41 | <merijn> | Also, which exact error? Which OS? Do you have system (Haskell) packages installed? |
| 16:40:46 | <mikoto-chan> | merijn: Might've asked for help too early, let me first try to fix it myself |
| 16:40:57 | <mikoto-chan> | How do I upgrade all installed packages? |
| 16:42:31 | <merijn> | mikoto-chan: You don't |
| 16:42:51 | <merijn> | mikoto-chan: Assuming you have a fairly recent cabal-install, that question means you are thinking about the cabal workflow wrong |
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| 16:43:21 | <mikoto-chan> | True, there isn't that much information on https://www.haskell.org/cabal |
| 16:43:28 | <merijn> | mikoto-chan: In cabal 3.0 later there isn't really a sensible notion of "globally installed package" (because that's a terrible idea for development) |
| 16:43:52 | <merijn> | And lacking a notion like "globally installed" there's also not really a reason to ever need to upgrade things |
| 16:44:11 | <merijn> | mikoto-chan: What are you trying to do? |
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| 17:08:36 | <mikoto-chan> | merijn: My bad, forgot the reason for the v2 commands. Anyway, I just wanted to install a package to play around with the library. |
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| 17:09:07 | <mikoto-chan> | I'm currently running 'cabal install Cabal cabal-install' which is compiling 245 packages |
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| 17:10:30 | <geekosaur> | probably installing Cabal is a mistake, since it's a library |
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| 17:10:44 | <geekosaur> | cabal-install would install it properly as a library dependency |
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| 17:11:26 | <mikoto-chan> | Weird, I just ran what I found on https://www.haskell.org/cabal/index.html |
| 17:11:32 | <mikoto-chan> | See upgrading cabal |
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| 17:11:51 | <maerwald> | I've never seen that page |
| 17:11:57 | <mikoto-chan> | I'm running 3.2 with ghcup bt |
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| 17:12:15 | <maerwald> | mikoto-chan: it has 3.4 |
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| 17:12:37 | <mikoto-chan> | maerwald: Wdym? |
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| 17:12:43 | <maerwald> | ghcup has 3.4 |
| 17:12:50 | <maerwald> | not sure why you're installing it |
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| 17:13:30 | <maerwald> | `cabal install cabal-install` can be a bumpy ride and make only work on some specific GHC versions |
| 17:13:38 | <maerwald> | s/make/may/ |
| 17:13:40 | <mikoto-chan> | Can I easily upgrade by just reinstalling ghcup? |
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| 17:13:56 | <maerwald> | mikoto-chan: run `ghcup tui` |
| 17:14:25 | <mikoto-chan> | maerwald: Wow ... a lot of red crosses |
| 17:14:46 | <maerwald> | :D |
| 17:15:10 | <mikoto-chan> | Is the tui built with brick? (I was trying to install exactly that) |
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| 17:15:14 | <maerwald> | yes |
| 17:15:36 | <mikoto-chan> | Installing != compiling? (cabal always compiles) |
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| 17:32:04 | <geekosaur> | ghcup can install precompiled binaries, yes |
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| 17:33:56 | <maerwald> | or compile uncompiled binaries and install them |
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| 17:41:33 | <Gurkenglas_> | Recall unit_or :: () -> () -> (), which runs both inputs in parallel and returns the first that succeeds. Could one build the following? or :: a -> a -> a, which runs both inputs in parallel and returns the constructor of the first to get to WHNF; then once forced further, both keep running; to the extent that they contradict, the first trumps; the second might overtake the first in the race to get ever more defined. |
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| 17:44:10 | <Gurkenglas_> | Left (fix (trace "left")) `or` Right (fix (trace "right")), evaluated fully, would trace either lots of "left" or lots of "right", because the runner-up is abandoned once it's clear that he has chosen another constructor |
| 17:44:32 | <Gurkenglas_> | f `or` g would presumably be \x -> f x `or` g x |
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| 17:46:17 | <Gurkenglas_> | (1,1,fix id) `or` (fix id,0,fix id) could be (1,1,fix id) `or` (1,0,fix id) |
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| 17:48:45 | <geekosaur> | one hopes not, unless it's in IO |
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| 17:49:38 | <Gurkenglas_> | (reading domain theory and trying to construct the closest thing we get to the least value more defined than two given values, or the closest thing we can get) |
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| 17:50:16 | <Gurkenglas_> | (((scratch last ,-clause ._.))) |
| 17:51:24 | <Gurkenglas_> | "could be (1,1,fix id) `or` (1,0,fix id)" i meant to write "could be (1,1,fix id) or (1,0,fix id)", but this is surprisingly appropriate |
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| 17:56:22 | <Gurkenglas_> | (i guess simply erroring out whenever the two arguments don't have a value that's more defined than both is close enough) |
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| 17:57:31 | <Gurkenglas_> | when implementing this, one would wish that ghc could hand the knowledge that one of the two thunks has returned a constructor to the other thunk, so that it might use the knowledge to finish faster |
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| 18:01:17 | <Gurkenglas_> | although that would change the behavior... fix (fmap (2:)) `or` (fix id : fix id) would be more defined than either |
| 18:01:35 | <Gurkenglas_> | wait, thats the wrong term uhh |
| 18:02:05 | <Gurkenglas_> | fix (fmap (2:)) `or` Just (fix id) <- there, that's what I meant |
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| 18:13:51 | <Gurkenglas_> | i suppose if or were implemented, it's thinkable that ghc might apply this knowledge: If the x thunk in "let x = fmap (2:) x in x" is the same thunk as the return thunk in `or`, then at some point the "Just (fix id)" could put Just at the front of x, after which point whatever fmaps have accumulated can resolve. hmm, not really optimally fast, but combined two looping programs into a colooping one :) |
| 18:15:10 | <Gurkenglas_> | All hell breaks loose though if the assumption is broken that the two values have a value that's more defined than both - fix (2:) `or` fix (1:) could come out 1:1:2:1:2:2:1:... :D |
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| 18:18:10 | Gurkenglas_ | .oO(so huh, this optimization gives me just some value more defined than both instead of the least one. I've been wondering why in this domain theory book, directed sets only require some upper bound rather than the least one.) |
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| 18:18:59 | <ski> | Gurkenglas_ : is that like `unamb' ? |
| 18:19:36 | <monochrom> | Domain theory books try to require the minimum required to explain most existing programming languages. |
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| 18:20:16 | <monochrom> | Err, misread. |
| 18:20:23 | <Gurkenglas_> | monochrom, i read some of the first chapter and ran off trying to invent the math myself :P |
| 18:20:33 | <ski> | @hackage unamb |
| 18:20:33 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/unamb |
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| 18:20:45 | <Gurkenglas_> | ski, nice! better yet according to unamb, https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lub |
| 18:21:56 | <ski> | @hackage lvish |
| 18:21:56 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lvish |
| 18:22:06 | <monochrom> | Actually what I said applies, despite a misread. |
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| 18:23:56 | <Gurkenglas_> | monochrom, well yea, the book might as well apply its own theory :3 |
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| 18:36:35 | <Gurkenglas_> | yep lub sure looks like it'll combine fix (fmap (2:)) and Just (fix id) into Just (repeat 2), time to test and issue report that his library and all the functions have the wrong name :D |
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| 18:49:37 | <JMSL> | what’s up |
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| 18:52:16 | <codolio> | Counterpoint: I don't want GHC to waste time on a slower execution model just so that I can define functions in less obvious ways that domain theory says 'should' exist. |
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| 21:05:58 | <kupi> | I am currently reading SICP, is that still relevant today or there is a better alternative? |
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| 21:09:58 | <koz_> | kupi: Define 'relevant'. |
| 21:10:20 | <koz_> | Also, SICP uses Scheme, and we're #haskell. |
| 21:10:29 | <kupi> | you would recommend to someone who wants to learn how to use FP in the big |
| 21:10:41 | <koz_> | kupi: 'In the big' meaning what exactly? |
| 21:10:54 | <koz_> | SICP aims to teach principles - not specifically of functional programming I might add. |
| 21:11:01 | <koz_> | I'm not really sure how that relates. |
| 21:11:09 | <kupi> | designing large programs, like how to structure modules |
| 21:11:17 | <kupi> | what to expose and not expose |
| 21:11:19 | <koz_> | I would say SICP won't really help you much there. |
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| 21:11:25 | <koz_> | It's not a software engineering book. |
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| 21:12:27 | <dolio> | It's still a good book, though. |
| 21:12:52 | <kupi> | for software engineering what do you recommend? I have read Learn you a Haskell and til chapter 17 |
| 21:13:12 | <kupi> | *and Real world Haskell til chapter 17 |
| 21:13:14 | <koz_> | kupi: I don't really have anything to suggest, sorry. |
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| 21:22:10 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | kupi: learn it step by step |
| 21:22:27 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | stay tuned and you're gonna find something |
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| 21:23:20 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | it doesn't matter which level you are on, you can just play and code for fun |
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| 21:23:55 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | there is a book |
| 21:23:58 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | Alexander Granin - Functional Design and Architecture (2020) |
| 21:24:10 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | but it's hard to read |
| 21:24:25 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | the style is to "dry" |
| 21:24:59 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | *too |
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| 21:27:23 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | or maybe not |
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| 21:27:47 | <sclv> | kupi: have you seen "how to design programs"? |
| 21:27:58 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | anyway, idk why but it was hard for me to read |
| 21:28:28 | <kupi> | sclv: not yet, all i know wikipedia mentions it at the SICP article |
| 21:28:34 | <sclv> | its pretty basic imho but its considered a very good intro text on functional architecture https://htdp.org/2020-8-1/Book/index.html |
| 21:29:10 | <sclv> | imho most questions of large scale architecture are sort of the same with or without functional programming tbh |
| 21:29:13 | <koz_> | sclv: Thanks for pointing me to that - it seems interesting and I didn't know about it. |
| 21:29:17 | <koz_> | And yeah, I agree. |
| 21:29:25 | <koz_> | Even medium-scale architecture. |
| 21:29:27 | <sclv> | there's a few more "fp" overall things -- ideas you can pick up from hinze's functional perals, etc |
| 21:29:36 | <sclv> | the idea of "wholemeal" design, etc |
| 21:29:41 | <sclv> | but that's more in terms of algorithmics |
| 21:29:48 | <sclv> | and then then there's algebraic thinking and factoring of libraries |
| 21:29:52 | <koz_> | sclv: So, design that's good for your gut biome? |
| 21:30:53 | <sclv> | but if you are building a large system then a lot of stuff is at a higher level, and idk any good books on it, i acquired through experience. |
| 21:31:06 | <sclv> | there's a book on large program architecture that has a chapter on ghc, i forget what book though! |
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| 21:31:22 | <sclv> | (oh i should add experience, and lots of articles about many different systems) |
| 21:31:42 | <koz_> | I think Sandy Maguire was working on a design-style book too, but I forget its name or whether it's finished. |
| 21:32:12 | <sclv> | re wholemeal programming: https://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/people/ralf.hinze/publications/ICFP09.pdf |
| 21:32:24 | <sclv> | " Wholemeal programming means to thinkbig: work with an entire list, rather than a sequence of elements; de-velop a solution space, rather than an individual solution; imaginea graph, rather than a single path." |
| 21:32:32 | <kupi> | i once read a program made by one person who had 20 years of experience, about 10 of it was java. That program was full of god classes cyclically dependent on each other! |
| 21:33:10 | <kupi> | that was when I learnt "experience" is not enough, books and code reviews are essential |
| 21:34:05 | <koz_> | To be fair, experience in Java is inversely proportional, so it's 10 - 10 = 0 years of actual experience. :P |
| 21:34:10 | <sclv> | oh here's the book i was thinking of: https://www.aosabook.org/en/index.html |
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| 21:34:33 | <sclv> | maybe marlow's book on concurrency would pair well |
| 21:34:45 | <koz_> | I would recommend that book regardless (Marlow's). |
| 21:34:52 | <koz_> | It's _really_ useful. |
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| 21:37:45 | <kupi> | is there newer version of this? https://twitter.com/lambda_conf/status/803695008100466688 |
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| 21:38:01 | <sclv> | I hope not! |
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| 21:38:09 | <sclv> | its a terrible idea and we all dunked on it at the time |
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| 21:38:33 | <kupi> | is there an alternative? |
| 21:39:36 | <sclv> | imho there's no "right" way to construct such a thing |
| 21:39:42 | <subttle> | 1 |
| 21:39:50 | <koz_> | subttle: 2 |
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| 21:40:04 | <subttle> | haha sorry typo meant to be "/1" to change windows :) |
| 21:41:08 | <Psybur> | Anybody have an idea on how to fix 'cannot find ld' when using stack build? It appears to be on my path, dont know why im getting this https://pastebin.com/Xp5gSjtN |
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| 21:45:00 | <sclv> | kupi: the "right" metric is to keep reading code and writing code and learning as youo go |
| 21:45:12 | <sclv> | there's no "ladder" to climb |
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| 21:50:35 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | sclv: "imho most questions of large scale architecture are sort of the same with or without functional programming tbh" |
| 21:50:57 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | but the language can encourage or discourage certain decisions |
| 21:51:25 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | I heard that in erlang everything is an actor |
| 21:51:50 | <sclv> | sure. but there's actor style libs for java even |
| 21:51:56 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | so an erlang programmer will probably lean towards a solution that involves actors |
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| 21:52:42 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | js encouraged callbacks |
| 21:52:57 | <sclv> | many languages do |
| 21:53:12 | <sclv> | its common in python libs too |
| 21:53:33 | <hololeap> | kupi: it reminds me a bit of this: http://dev.stephendiehl.com/hask/index.html |
| 21:53:56 | <sclv> | i'm not saying language doesn't matter. i'm saying that large scale architecture is something that lives at a higher level of abstraction than "functional programming" |
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| 21:54:29 | <sclv> | and by large scale i mean systems with say at least three different interacting processes, typically more |
| 21:54:29 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | I think they intersect |
| 21:54:39 | <sclv> | ok good for you |
| 21:54:43 | <kupi> | thanks a lot, so many links I am completely unsure what to do? shall I finish SICP? then what's next? |
| 21:55:08 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | in fp there is a distinction between pure and impure code |
| 21:55:40 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | that's a whole perspective of its own on the design process |
| 21:55:41 | <koz_> | kupi: My suggestion? Build stuff. |
| 21:55:43 | <sclv> | kupi: finishing SICP is good. if you got a lot out of it you'd probably be at a level where you get a lot out of HTDP ttoo |
| 21:55:48 | <sclv> | but yes, build stuff! |
| 21:55:58 | <koz_> | Like, you can read and theorize all you like, but building stuff helps put it into practice and show you what you're missing. |
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| 21:56:30 | <sclv> | read things you enjoy and teach you things. and if you stop enjoying and learning from something, then go do something else, or read something else. |
| 21:56:51 | <koz_> | sclv: Yes, this times a million. |
| 21:56:53 | <sclv> | all you can get are recommendations, you need to sort thru them and prioritize yourself, you know best |
| 21:57:26 | <sclv> | minoru_shiraeesh: i think you do not understand what i mean by "large scale" and that's ok |
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| 21:59:20 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | sclv: so what is it? examples |
| 21:59:51 | <sclv> | "systems with say at least three different interacting processes, typically more" |
| 22:01:38 | <sclv> | say six long running server processes, multiple protocols and serialization formats, twelve db tables, at least two dbs, multiple supervisors, a databroker and also direct RPC apis of various sorts. |
| 22:01:53 | <Psybur> | Why did nobody warn me about stack build --verbose |
| 22:01:54 | <sclv> | a thing you need a whole whiteboard to diagram |
| 22:02:44 | <sclv> | whether any individual component is written in java, haskell, rust or whatever is a Lot less relevant at that point |
| 22:03:18 | <sclv> | I would prefer they all be written in haskell, of course. but the architecture questions involved don't relate to that |
| 22:03:32 | <koz_> | In fact, there is a good chance chunks of it are written in something rather different. |
| 22:03:36 | <koz_> | (databases for example) |
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| 22:04:09 | <sclv> | yep -- in all such systems i've worked on there have been at least three languages in play, not to mention the DBs |
| 22:04:39 | <koz_> | In the system I'm currently dealing with, there's three. |
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| 22:04:53 | <koz_> | (well, four technically) |
| 22:05:07 | <sclv> | let me guess, there are three teams! |
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| 22:05:50 | <koz_> | sclv: There are considerably more than three teams. |
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| 22:06:03 | <sclv> | lol i was going for a conway's law thing |
| 22:06:03 | <koz_> | In fact, I discover new ones almost daily. |
| 22:06:21 | <koz_> | Yeah, lol. |
| 22:06:22 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | sounds like we make a sudden jump from designing chairs and tables to designing cities, but there are things in between that you can design too |
| 22:06:43 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | you can design a cross-roads for example |
| 22:06:43 | <sclv> | anyway that's me clarifying what i meant by "large" |
| 22:06:58 | <Gurkenglas_> | "stack --resolver nightly-2020-12-14 install ghc" says "ghc-8.6.5" but https://www.stackage.org/nightly-2020-12-14 says "ghc-8.10.2". Hm? |
| 22:07:16 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | ok, at that level the fp is often irrelevant |
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| 22:10:54 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | the point I'm trying to make is that there should be a spot on the "scale" axis where the fp is very relevant |
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| 22:11:25 | <monochrom> | We already know. I think we can stop beating a dead horse now. |
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| 22:19:05 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | don't assume that other people know what you know. |
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| 22:19:55 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | that's a theory of mind thing |
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| 22:27:46 | <inkbottle> | There must be something I'm confused about in this "Yoneda Lemma" comment: "The Yoneda lemma tells us that all Set-valued functors can be obtained from hom-functors through natural transformations, and it explicitly enumerates all such transformations" (https://bartoszmilewski.com/2015/09/01/the-yoneda-lemma/) |
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| 22:29:01 | <monochrom> | One thing the sentence doesn't say is: natural transformtions from who to whom? |
| 22:29:22 | <inkbottle> | hum... |
| 22:29:34 | <monochrom> | If you don't know, the sentence is vague. |
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| 22:30:16 | <inkbottle> | What I thought, the first time, after quite some time. |
| 22:30:16 | <monochrom> | So I recommend looking at the detailed theorem statement before revisiting "summarizing" sentences. |
| 22:30:47 | <inkbottle> | Right |
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| 22:32:10 | <monochrom> | As it happens, I made a much better comment yesterday. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/haskell/21.03.10 then look for the time 15:34:58. |
| 22:32:43 | <Gurkenglas_> | There's these two packages not on stackage, one depends on the other, I can stack install one but that doesnt let me stack init the other |
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| 22:33:43 | <inkbottle> | Thanks |
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| 22:35:21 | <Gurkenglas_> | Oh that was guessable enough, I put the dependency folder into the depending folder before calling stack init again. |
| 22:36:42 | <Gurkenglas_> | (and not aborting stack install on the depending one when i saw that it was trying a bunch of resolvers with no hope let it tell me about --omit-packages, which told me it was looking for a subfolder with the name of that dependency.) |
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