Logs on 2021-03-15 (freenode/#haskell)
| 00:01:56 | <sm[m]> | we need a live coding platform that #haskell can plug into |
| 00:02:06 | <sm[m]> | plenty of feedback then! |
| 00:03:25 | <Squarism> | This might be a bad/confused example but anyways. I wonder if there is a way to make some sort of abstract class that can concretized into another class? https://paste.ofcode.org/9L8PEMsqQZeDHqMaPcx7xk |
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| 00:04:40 | <Squarism> | where a sub class provides detail to make a superclass less abstract so to speak. |
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| 00:09:06 | <koz_> | Squarism: You could do that with associated types. |
| 00:09:29 | <koz_> | However, you _still_ have a multi-parameter type class, so without having fundeps _as well_, you're not gonna have a fun time. |
| 00:10:16 | <Squarism> | koz_, never heard of "associated types" before. What are those? |
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| 00:11:27 | <koz_> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.1.0/docs/src/GHC.Exts.html#IsList |
| 00:11:30 | <remal> | In devdocs there is haskell 7, 8, 9 how can I determine which version I'm on? |
| 00:11:34 | <remal> | is it 9 be default? |
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| 00:11:39 | <koz_> | See that 'type Item l' thing? That's an associated type. |
| 00:13:56 | <koz_> | But for what you want to do, you're still going to have trouble, because you have a multi-parameter type class. Unless you can come up with some fundeps for that combination. |
| 00:15:45 | <Squarism> | ah, i thought that was class type families. |
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| 00:16:13 | <koz_> | Squarism: Well, whatever you wanna call them, I think what you want is doable with them. |
| 00:17:08 | <Squarism> | through using instances, sure. But create a class from another class? I cannot see how that would be done. |
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| 00:18:05 | <koz_> | Ah, so you want parameterized _classes_, not merely 'here's a set of classes, associate them with some types'? |
| 00:21:59 | <Squarism> | koz_, yes |
| 00:22:45 | <koz_> | Yeah, that's... challenging. |
| 00:22:50 | <koz_> | What's the bigger context here? |
| 00:23:14 | <whataday> | why call a fixed point inside a Cont do notation would create a loop? |
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| 00:23:46 | <whataday> | http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/cont-monad.xhtml |
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| 00:25:33 | <Squarism> | koz_, right now just trying to learn what is possible. Really i wanted to create two classes that just differ in 2 arguments. Say A and B. Then i wanted to create a mapping from B -> A. So implementing a B would give me an A. |
| 00:25:52 | <koz_> | What are A and B? Types? |
| 00:26:03 | <Squarism> | no, those would be the two classes |
| 00:26:27 | <koz_> | The 'arguments' in which they differ are types then? |
| 00:26:33 | <Squarism> | yes |
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| 00:26:53 | <koz_> | Depending on what you want, type families might be able to achieve it, but I would argue that you _definitely_ don't wanna go down this road. |
| 00:27:07 | <koz_> | It might be doable, but it'll be impossible to work with, and the typechecker would likely turn to custard. |
| 00:27:10 | <Squarism> | with arguments i mean the Started/NonStarted from my example. |
| 00:27:34 | <koz_> | I dunno though - just the thought of this makes my brain protest. |
| 00:27:59 | <Squarism> | =D |
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| 01:18:48 | <slack1256> | Does anyone know a FOSS haskell program that uses the +RTS -T --RTS statistics at runtime for profiling? |
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| 01:19:39 | <slack1256> | That option makes available profiling info at runtime, so they can be reported or processed in the program itself. I want to know what is the standard treatment of them. |
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| 01:20:36 | <infinisil> | slack1256: ekg is a library that uses that: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ekg |
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| 01:21:11 | <sm[m]> | it prints GC statistics, no ? |
| 01:21:19 | <slack1256> | infinisil: Coool, thank you! |
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| 01:22:01 | <sm[m]> | well, --help says it collects them. I don't see it printing anything |
| 01:22:27 | <sm[m]> | I seee |
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| 01:23:04 | <slack1256> | infinisil: This actually is better, it provides a view onto a live program, great! just great! . |
| 01:23:14 | <infinisil> | :D |
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| 01:24:28 | <slack1256> | Why didn't I know this before? |
| 01:24:35 | slack1256 | jumping |
| 01:24:45 | <sm[m]> | nobody expects haskell tooling to be great :) |
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| 01:29:11 | <slack1256> | https://imgur.com/a/vu0AexY |
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| 01:34:02 | <int-e> | slack1256: I imagine it makes GHC.Stats useful |
| 01:34:45 | <int-e> | but maybe there's more to it, hmm |
| 01:36:34 | <int-e> | No, that's it according to the description at https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.1.0/docs/GHC-Stats.html |
| 01:37:05 | <int-e> | "These statistics are not available unless a program is run with the -T RTS flag." |
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| 01:37:10 | <slack1256> | But the labels available on ekg don't seem to be the same as in GHC.Stats |
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| 01:41:48 | <int-e> | Well you can map them by looking at https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ekg-core-0.1.1.7/docs/src/System.Metrics.html#registerGcMetrics |
| 01:43:08 | <slack1256> | Oooh so I have to make the mapping myself onto ekg. Fair enough. |
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| 01:43:33 | <int-e> | huh, so par_tot_bytes_copied and par_avg_bytes_copied are the same? that's odd |
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| 02:23:21 | <shapr> | I just realized hoogle is so successful because of purity |
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| 02:30:43 | <MarcelineVQ> | what a mysterious thing to say |
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| 02:39:22 | <shapr> | MarcelineVQ: I realized that hoogle in OCaml might not be as useful, because more mutation is allowed |
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| 02:40:05 | <shapr> | and that the usefulness of an OCaml hoogle would depend on how well the function was described by the type signature |
| 02:40:30 | <shapr> | hoogle is a confusing tool to show to people who don't know Haskell |
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| 02:40:54 | <shapr> | Once I've given someone a minimal introduction to Haskell, hoogle is a wonderful surprise |
| 02:42:24 | <shapr> | but you couldn't build hoogle for Python |
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| 02:49:32 | <nshepperd> | type signatures are probably a bit less informative when everything's mutable yeah |
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| 03:01:09 | <int-e> | @hoogle IO () |
| 03:01:10 | <lambdabot> | Control.Concurrent yield :: IO () |
| 03:01:10 | <lambdabot> | Control.Exception allowInterrupt :: IO () |
| 03:01:10 | <lambdabot> | Foreign.C.Error resetErrno :: IO () |
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| 03:01:33 | <int-e> | (yeah that's about as useful as could be expected :-) ) |
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| 03:11:29 | <curiousgay> | `fst $ head [(3,"four")]` -> 3, `fst . head [(3,"four")]` -> error |
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| 03:12:20 | <Axman6> | because you've written fst . (head [(3,"four"]) |
| 03:12:34 | <Axman6> | uh, with the extra bracket I forgot for the tuple |
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| 03:13:53 | <Axman6> | two things to remember: function application binds the strongest, so f x means (f x), no matter which operators are around it. (.) takes in two functions, but the second argument you've provided it is not a function, it has type (Int,String) (or somerthing like it) |
| 03:14:40 | <Axman6> | expanding the definition of (.) you can see we get \x -> fst (head [(3,"four)] x), which doesn't make much sense |
| 03:15:07 | <curiousgay> | guh |
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| 03:15:15 | <curiousgay> | this only happens with tupples? |
| 03:15:30 | <Axman6> | no, it has nothing to do with tuples |
| 03:16:15 | <curiousgay> | but I usually have (.) working when function on the right has argument |
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| 03:16:52 | <Axman6> | what you probably meant to write was: fst . head $ [(3,"four")], which is the same as (fst . head) [(3,"four")], which expands into (\x -> fst (head x)) [(3,"four")] |
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| 03:20:40 | <Axman6> | curiousgay: you don;t have a function as the right argument though |
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| 03:20:46 | <Axman6> | head [(3,"four")] isn't a function |
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| 03:22:12 | <koz_> | :t head [(3, "four")] |
| 03:22:13 | <lambdabot> | Num a => (a, [Char]) |
| 03:22:20 | <koz_> | Confirmed, not a function. |
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| 03:22:47 | <curiousgay> | so (.) composes functions only when I don't give the rightmost function an argument |
| 03:23:07 | <Axman6> | s/only when I don't give the rightmost function an argument// |
| 03:23:17 | <Axman6> | :t (.) |
| 03:23:18 | <lambdabot> | (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c |
| 03:23:38 | <Axman6> | :t fst . head |
| 03:23:40 | <lambdabot> | [(c, b)] -> c |
| 03:23:57 | <Axman6> | :t (fst . head) [(3,"four")] |
| 03:23:58 | <lambdabot> | Num c => c |
| 03:24:03 | <Axman6> | > (fst . head) [(3,"four")] |
| 03:24:05 | <lambdabot> | 3 |
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| 03:24:34 | <curiousgay> | I mean I thought `fst . head [(3, "four")]` would translate to `fst(head [(3, "four")])` |
| 03:24:52 | <Axman6> | > fst . head $ [(3,"four")] -- $ isn't magic, it just has lower precidence and the correct fixity to remove the need for brackets on the right when using (.) |
| 03:24:54 | <lambdabot> | 3 |
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| 03:25:43 | <Axman6> | curiousgay: nope, we've gone through that that means, fst . head [(3,"four")] means fst . (head [(3,"four")]) |
| 03:25:48 | <Axman6> | what that* |
| 03:26:15 | <curiousgay> | ok |
| 03:27:17 | <Axman6> | the invisible function application operator, whitespace, binds more tightly than any binary operator |
| 03:27:54 | <Axman6> | > f $ g $ g $ x :: Expr |
| 03:27:56 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 03:27:56 | <lambdabot> | • Ambiguous type variable ‘t0’ arising from a use of ‘f’ |
| 03:27:56 | <lambdabot> | prevents the constraint ‘(Show t0)’ from being solved. |
| 03:28:05 | <Axman6> | :( |
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| 03:34:17 | <curiousgay> | haha, that reminds me spending some time to verify list holding curried functions :) |
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| 03:35:29 | <curiousgay> | s/holding/of/ |
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| 04:32:49 | <molehillish> | silly question, is Haskell more popular in Europe, or US ? |
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| 04:39:14 | <glguy> | I wouldn't think so |
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| 06:34:36 | <arahael> | I seem to feel that europe is more Delphi historically, and now C++. |
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| 06:37:26 | <opqdonut> | most of the haskell companies I can name are in london or switzerland, I think |
| 06:37:53 | <opqdonut> | of course where a company is is kinda badly defined, especially these days |
| 06:38:00 | <opqdonut> | and I'm from europe, so that's a bias definitely |
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| 06:51:18 | <curiousgay> | me from ukraine: no Haskell jobs here :( |
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| 07:11:15 | <jhrcek> | Hello hvr_, not sure if you saw this already, but could you please check this PR? https://github.com/haskell-hvr/base-noprelude/pull/13 |
| 07:12:41 | <koz_> | jhrcek: HVR is pretty AWOL and has been for months. tapas - maybe you can assist? |
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| 07:13:55 | <dmj`> | curiousgay: you should make some haskell jobs in ukraine |
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| 07:18:29 | <koz_> | What should I read if I wanna understand how HM is extended with type classes? |
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| 07:23:54 | <dmj`> | koz_: typing haskell in haskell is good |
| 07:24:05 | <koz_> | dmj`: Link if you got it? |
| 07:24:23 | <dmj`> | @google typing haskell in haskell |
| 07:24:24 | <lambdabot> | No Result Found. |
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| 07:24:49 | <dmj`> | koz_: http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~mpj/thih/thih.pdf |
| 07:24:55 | <koz_> | Thanks! |
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| 07:34:43 | <Hi-Angel> | Does anybody know, how to do a `cabal install` into a DESTDIR? I need to build a deb package from some software written in Haskell, so I'm trying to use `DESTDIR=deb cabal install`, but deb dir is empty |
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| 07:39:27 | <jhrcek> | Try `cabal install --help`. At the end you'll see: |
| 07:39:30 | <jhrcek> | cabal install ./pkgfoo |
| 07:39:30 | <jhrcek> | Install the package in the ./pkgfoo directory |
| 07:39:50 | <Hi-Angel> | Thanks |
| 07:41:20 | <jhrcek> | Sorry, looking at help again, this should be what you're looking for: |
| 07:41:21 | <jhrcek> | --installdir=DIR Where to install (by |
| 07:41:21 | <jhrcek> | symlinking or copying) the |
| 07:41:21 | <jhrcek> | executables in. |
| 07:41:35 | <Hi-Angel> | Cool, thanks! |
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| 08:08:57 | <jhrcek> | tapas : for context regarding what koz_ wrote above for context: I'd like base-noprelude version compatible with base 4.14.1.0 to be released to hackage, but I'm unable to reach hvr_ to take a look at my PR (https://github.com/haskell-hvr/base-noprelude/pull/13). I'd greatly appreciate any help with moving this forward. |
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| 08:32:25 | <curiousgay> | dmj` how if I don't run business? |
| 08:32:56 | <curiousgay> | btw, gentle introduction to haskell has broken example at page 40 |
| 08:33:30 | <curiousgay> | the working definition of readsTree is on page 39 |
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| 08:39:43 | <curiousgay> | were there incompatible changes to lex function? |
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| 09:14:45 | <curiousgay> | I've figured out that the first string returned by lex can contain more than one character, this behavior was not expected by tutorial (or what its pattern condition was thinking) |
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| 09:22:55 | <curiousgay> | monochrom: I've made a workaround for that with pattern matching, the result doesn't look nice at all (warning - hindent formatted): https://pastebin.com/raw/pbbfZBEf |
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| 09:32:18 | <merijn> | oof |
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| 09:34:15 | <curiousgay> | well, I use editor where tabs are easier to type than spaces |
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| 09:35:46 | <yorick> | hi! I'm trying to foreign dynamic export a haskell function that uses C variadic arguments |
| 09:35:57 | <yorick> | is this.. possible? or do I need cbits |
| 09:36:44 | <merijn> | yorick: You need cbits |
| 09:36:57 | <merijn> | yorick: variadic arguments aren't party of any portable C ABI |
| 09:37:11 | <yorick> | sad, thanks |
| 09:37:16 | <merijn> | s/party/part |
| 09:37:21 | <yorick> | I don't know why they went for this since all everyone is gonna do is call snprintf on them |
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| 09:41:18 | <merijn> | yorick: Maybe they nerdsniped themselves while coding it? |
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| 09:43:26 | <hololeap> | i wonder why the Profunctor instance for Kleisli has a Monad constraint for m as opposed to Functor |
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| 09:47:10 | <merijn> | hololeap: Because the functor instance for Kleisli wasn't added until 8.10, apparently |
| 09:48:38 | <hololeap> | huh that's surprising |
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| 09:50:59 | <yorick> | merijn: I bet it saves entire cycles and stack space in case you want to do printf directly |
| 09:53:51 | <alexanderdgreat> | Hello. Sorry if this seems off-topic. I want to ask: (imagine) I have a toy chatbot program written in Haskell and I can run it on my system. Now I want to deploy this online but the backend server I am writing is in runs NodeJS. What is the preferred way to call my Haskell toy chatbot program from NodeJS. |
| 09:53:58 | <merijn> | hololeap: Not really, because no one really uses Kleisli :p |
| 09:55:00 | <merijn> | alexanderdgreat: tbh, that's probably more of a node question? The usual ways would be: Spawn it as a subprocess and talk with the bot over stdin/stdout, use a unix domain socket, or just a regular TCP socket |
| 09:55:13 | <merijn> | But I have no clue how easy/hard any of those are in node.js |
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| 09:58:16 | <alexanderdgreat> | merijn: Thanks for answering. My problem is not NodeJS specific. I wanted to ask if I have to perform IPC from a Haskell binary on my backend server regardless of the language used in my business, can I wrap my chatbot with HTTP API using some Haskell web framework and call GET like requests from my backend business logic. |
| 09:58:22 | <alexanderdgreat> | ? |
| 10:01:33 | <merijn> | Sure |
| 10:01:58 | <merijn> | I don't really do web stuff, so I can't recommend any libraries, but I can't see why you couldn't |
| 10:02:31 | <alexanderdgreat> | merijn: Thanks a lot. |
| 10:02:33 | <alexanderdgreat> | merijn++ |
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| 11:40:39 | curiousgay | seeing laws of monads |
| 11:40:44 | <curiousgay> | my brain: that hurts |
| 11:41:53 | <mouseghost> | curiousgay, everyone was there, i think |
| 11:42:00 | <jumper149> | curiousgay: Specific to Monad is just the bind operator >>= |
| 11:42:08 | <mouseghost> | nice username btw |
| 11:42:21 | <jumper149> | curiousgay: The rest is built up on other typeclasses |
| 11:43:04 | <jumper149> | Maybe that will help you distinguish the laws from one another |
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| 11:44:14 | <curiousgay> | mouseghost: thanks, you're the first one commenting my nick :) |
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| 11:44:59 | <mouseghost> | :D |
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| 11:47:36 | <curiousgay> | jumper149: `xs >>= return . f = fmap f xs` is so mind blowing |
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| 11:51:45 | <jumper149> | curiousgay: It's important to understand why that works, but from a practical perspective the lhs is kind of an antipattern. |
| 11:52:36 | <enikar> | curiousgay: use lambda to understand. |
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| 11:54:51 | <enikar> | xs >>= return . f = xs >>= (\x -> return (f x)) |
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| 11:56:36 | <enikar> | if xs :: m a, then (\x -> return (f x)) should be 'm b', then the type of is: f :: a -> b |
| 11:57:23 | <enikar> | because (>>=) :: m a -> (\a -> m b) -> m b) |
| 11:58:53 | curiousgay | still thinking how it's equivalent to Functor |
| 11:58:58 | <enikar> | then: f :: a -> b |
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| 12:01:15 | <enikar> | curiousgay: the first time, it was difficult also for me, anyway. |
| 12:01:25 | <jumper149> | curiousgay: That's why I call it an antipattern. (>>=) binds monadic values (xs :: m a) to monadic functions (f :: a -> m b). |
| 12:01:58 | <jumper149> | But your example with `xs >>= return . f` doesn't care what kind of function f is. |
| 12:02:13 | <jumper149> | Instead you turn it into a monadic function by adding the `return`. |
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| 12:02:53 | <jumper149> | So the `return` wasn't necessary at all. Should have just used `fmap` :p |
| 12:04:29 | <systemfault> | > join . fmap (\x -> [x, x]) $ [1,2,3] |
| 12:04:31 | <enikar> | we can express the type just for list. If xs :: [a], then: return (f x) = [f x] :: [b]. |
| 12:04:31 | <lambdabot> | [1,1,2,2,3,3] |
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| 12:07:10 | <curiousgay> | jumper149: I'm thinking about functor instance on the left... |
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| 12:09:09 | <curiousgay> | enikar: it looks like an implicit call to map |
| 12:09:29 | <enikar> | yes indeed. |
| 12:09:30 | <merijn> | curiousgay: That's because "map" *is* fmap for lists :p |
| 12:09:39 | <jumper149> | @src map |
| 12:09:39 | <lambdabot> | map _ [] = [] |
| 12:09:39 | <lambdabot> | map f (x:xs) = f x : map f xs |
| 12:09:50 | <geekosaur> | @src [] fmap |
| 12:09:50 | <lambdabot> | fmap = map |
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| 12:15:00 | <enikar> | :t [1..3] >>= return .show |
| 12:15:03 | <curiousgay> | merijn: I mean that (>>=) takes every element in the list and transforms them just like map |
| 12:15:03 | <lambdabot> | [String] |
| 12:15:17 | <enikar> | :t fmap show [1..3] |
| 12:15:19 | <lambdabot> | [String] |
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| 12:17:22 | <merijn> | curiousgay: >>= is more like concatMap |
| 12:17:25 | <enikar> | perhaps, it's easier to think in the other direction, I mean, write fmap with >>= |
| 12:17:26 | <merijn> | :t concatMap |
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| 12:17:27 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t => (a -> [b]) -> t a -> [b] |
| 12:17:39 | <merijn> | In fact, >>= *is* concatMap with a different argument order :p |
| 12:18:07 | <curiousgay> | lol |
| 12:18:32 | <hpc> | most useful specialized functions are secretly more useful and more abstract functions in disguise :D |
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| 12:21:15 | <curiousgay> | merijn: that signature and that name mean: concatMap takes a function that transforms each element into the list, then it concatenates all those lists? |
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| 12:23:42 | <curiousgay> | concatenated monads... so lists are monads |
| 12:23:42 | <merijn> | yes |
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| 12:25:43 | <__minoru__shirae> | if we talk in terms of kleisli arrows, then return is like id for kleisli arrows and bind is like fmap? |
| 12:25:52 | <__minoru__shirae> | not sure about bind |
| 12:26:45 | <merijn> | __minoru__shirae: You're thinking of the fish operator! |
| 12:26:50 | <merijn> | :t (>=>) |
| 12:26:51 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c |
| 12:27:14 | <merijn> | With: f >=> g = \x -> f x >>= g |
| 12:28:18 | <curiousgay> | `(>>=) :: m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b` looks strange to me, because when I do something like `[1..5] >>= return . (+5)`, (+5) function doesn't generate lists |
| 12:28:18 | <merijn> | Well, >=> is more like (.) for Kleisli than fmap. But then again, fmap is (.) for "regular" functions |
| 12:28:49 | <jumper149> | curiousgay: Check the type of `return` |
| 12:29:20 | <curiousgay> | a -> m a |
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| 12:29:36 | <jumper149> | What is `m` in your example |
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| 12:29:58 | <curiousgay> | jumper149: "class Monad m where" |
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| 12:30:37 | <jumper149> | curiousgay: Ok, write something like `return 5` into ghci |
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| 12:31:35 | <jumper149> | curiousgay: ahhhhhh, sry no that is just confusing |
| 12:31:42 | <enikar> | into ghci, monad are "extracted" |
| 12:32:03 | <enikar> | so 'return 5', just prints 5 |
| 12:32:30 | <enikar> | :t return 5 |
| 12:32:33 | <lambdabot> | (Monad m, Num a) => m a |
| 12:32:34 | <jumper149> | What I wanted to say is: In the example `[1..5] >>= return . (+5)` the type of `return` gets unified to a concrete type |
| 12:33:03 | <jumper149> | The type of return is just: |
| 12:33:05 | <jumper149> | :t return |
| 12:33:07 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => a -> m a |
| 12:33:17 | <geekosaur> | enikar, not quite right, ghci will try to instantiate a monadic value as an IO action and if it succeeds, run the action |
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| 12:33:47 | <enikar> | geekosaur: ok. |
| 12:34:10 | <jumper149> | But in the context of lists it gets unfified to `return :: a -> [a]` |
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| 12:34:59 | <enikar> | :t return @[] |
| 12:35:00 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 12:35:00 | <lambdabot> | Pattern syntax in expression context: return@[] |
| 12:35:00 | <lambdabot> | Did you mean to enable TypeApplications? |
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| 12:35:11 | <geekosaur> | % :t return @[] |
| 12:35:11 | <yahb> | geekosaur: a -> [a] |
| 12:35:21 | <geekosaur> | use yahb for TypeApplications |
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| 12:35:33 | <enikar> | yes |
| 12:36:41 | <__minoru__shirae> | I mean, there is some relationship between fmap - bind and regular functions - kleisli arrows, but I don't know what that relationship is |
| 12:37:07 | <isson> | hi. i have a question. ( i am sorry i am not good to speak english.) |
| 12:37:07 | <__minoru__shirae> | hmm, what if we talk about Identity monad? |
| 12:37:40 | <curiousgay> | `return . f :: a -> m b` and `(>>=) -> m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b`, ah, so it's the return function being responsible for turning the result of (+5) into the list, but that means the return function itself is called many times? |
| 12:37:45 | <isson> | test = f (undefined :: a -> a) |
| 12:37:45 | <isson> | f :: (a -> b -> c) -> String |
| 12:37:46 | <isson> | f g = "test" |
| 12:38:13 | <jumper149> | __minoru__shirae: `Identity` is just a regular monad. What's the question? |
| 12:38:13 | <enikar> | curiousgay: exactly. |
| 12:38:24 | <isson> | [/home/isson/mynote/projs/haskell/Test/app/Main.hs:17:8-13] *Main Lib Paths_Test> :print g |
| 12:38:24 | <isson> | g = (_t1::(a -> b) -> String) |
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| 12:38:55 | <isson> | i cannot understand, how id type is (a -> b) -> String ? |
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| 12:39:29 | <isson> | how g's type is (a -> b) -> String ? |
| 12:39:36 | <__minoru__shirae> | jumper149, the question is how do you formulate (in simple terms) the relationship between fmap and regular functions and bind and kleisli arrows. Maybe they are the same? |
| 12:40:11 | <merijn> | __minoru__shirae: That depends on which relationship you're thinking off? |
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| 12:41:24 | <merijn> | __minoru__shirae: There are several I can think of, both Kleisli and functios are instances of: Profunctor, Kleisli, and Arrow |
| 12:41:33 | <curiousgay> | enikar: I remember tutorial mentioning that makes list comprehensions the syntactic sugar to these monad functions, it's just was mentioned too early |
| 12:42:00 | <merijn> | __minoru__shirae: Their functor/applicative/monad instances are also similar/the same |
| 12:42:25 | <__minoru__shirae> | "a monad is just a monoid in the category in which objects are functors" - I took this sentence from a book. I think it has somethig to do with the subject, and I don't yet fully understand it. |
| 12:43:31 | <merijn> | __minoru__shirae: You're maybe thinking off arrows/morphisms, because both functions and Kleisli are classical examples of CT morphisms |
| 12:44:22 | <curiousgay> | thanks everybody, now it's clear |
| 12:44:28 | <curiousgay> | :) |
| 12:44:28 | <__minoru__shirae> | and a monad is itself a functor |
| 12:44:42 | <merijn> | __minoru__shirae: Define "is" |
| 12:45:38 | <__minoru__shirae> | monad typeclass needs a functor constraint |
| 12:45:45 | <merijn> | __minoru__shirae: A functor consists of two morphisms: one between objects of two categories and one between morphisms in both categories |
| 12:46:40 | <merijn> | __minoru__shirae: ah, in that sense |
| 12:48:12 | <merijn> | __minoru__shirae: The things you need to define for a monad are a superset of the things you need to define a functor, so defining a monad (implicitly) defines a functor too (as shown by "fmap f x = x >>= return . f") |
| 12:50:12 | <__minoru__shirae> | fmap is like bind in which there is an implicit Identity monad |
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| 12:52:51 | <geekosaur> | isson, the g you show isn't in scope in ghci's top level, so I don't think you're getting a related response |
| 12:52:53 | <__minoru__shirae> | you have "Id a" and a function "a -> Id b" and using fmap you get "Id b", but you omit Ids |
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| 12:53:24 | <__minoru__shirae> | no, that sounds like a regular function application |
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| 12:56:31 | <__minoru__shirae> | no, regular function application would be when you have a function "Id a -> Id b" |
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| 13:16:07 | <__minoru__shirae> | anyway, in the meantime, while I don't have an intuition of those things, the rule of thumb is |
| 13:16:23 | <__minoru__shirae> | if you have a regular value and a regular function, you apply it |
| 13:16:45 | <__minoru__shirae> | if you have a functor, applicative, or a monad and a regular function, you use fmap |
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| 13:17:07 | <__minoru__shirae> | if you have a monad and a kleisli arrow, you use bind |
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| 13:21:54 | <__minoru__shirae> | if you have an applicative and a regular function, you can use applicative style, it will be analogous to using fmap |
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| 13:22:58 | <__minoru__shirae> | if you have a monad and a regular function, you can use bind with return, but fmap is simpler |
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| 13:25:26 | <toasty_avocado[m> | Can someone explain what `fold` does? I'm new to functional programming and am unfamiliar with this concept. My understanding is it i applies a function to a data structure recursively? |
| 13:25:47 | <hyperisco> | toasty_avocado[m, do you know what foldr does? |
| 13:26:06 | <toasty_avocado[m> | Not exactly other than it does the same thing on the right side? |
| 13:26:28 | <hyperisco> | fold, foldl, and foldr are not quite the same |
| 13:26:43 | <jumper149> | foldl and foldr take a function argument |
| 13:26:48 | <hyperisco> | > foldr f z [1,2,3,4,5] |
| 13:26:51 | <lambdabot> | f 1 (f 2 (f 3 (f 4 (f 5 z)))) |
| 13:26:58 | <jumper149> | fold uses a Monoid instance instead |
| 13:27:11 | <hyperisco> | fold = foldr mappend mempty |
| 13:27:24 | <jumper149> | @src fold |
| 13:27:24 | <lambdabot> | Source not found. My brain just exploded |
| 13:27:44 | <jumper149> | rip lambdabot |
| 13:27:50 | <toasty_avocado[m> | T.T |
| 13:27:58 | <toasty_avocado[m> | thanks for the explanation! |
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| 13:28:38 | <hyperisco> | > (fold (Just "hello sailor!"), fold Nothing) |
| 13:28:40 | <lambdabot> | ("hello sailor!",()) |
| 13:28:45 | <hyperisco> | whoops |
| 13:28:52 | <hyperisco> | > fold (Nothing :: Maybe String) |
| 13:28:54 | <lambdabot> | "" |
| 13:28:57 | <hyperisco> | a common way I use it |
| 13:29:13 | <toasty_avocado[m> | Thanks! |
| 13:30:28 | <hyperisco> | Maybe A is A plus one value, and if A has a Monoid instance you can take it back to simply A |
| 13:30:44 | <hyperisco> | mapping Nothing to mempty and Just a to a |
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| 13:37:25 | <__minoru__shirae> | I think I'm getting somewhere. Let's say we created a new language, and regular functions in that language translate to kleisli arrows in haskell |
| 13:37:56 | <__minoru__shirae> | then that language's fmap would translate to haskell's bind |
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| 13:43:06 | <__minoru__shirae> | but what would that language's bind translate to? a bind for a monad stack. |
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| 13:49:13 | <__minoru__shirae> | no, regular function application would translate to bind, and fmap would translate to something else |
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| 13:54:41 | <isson> | thanks minoru_shirae |
| 13:54:41 | <isson> | test = f id |
| 13:54:42 | <isson> | f :: (a -> b -> c) -> String |
| 13:54:42 | <isson> | f g = "test" |
| 13:54:43 | <isson> | it compiles successfully. |
| 13:54:43 | <isson> | id have a type a -> a |
| 13:54:44 | <isson> | but f have a type it's first argument is (a -> b -> c) |
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| 13:57:02 | <mouseghost> | cant "g" be very well (a -> b -> c) ? |
| 13:57:05 | <geekosaur> | which becomes (b -> c) -> (b -> c) |
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| 13:58:46 | <geekosaur> | which can also be written (b -> c) -> b -> c which matches a -> b -> c |
| 13:59:00 | <geekosaur> | (that is, a is found to be b -> c) |
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| 14:00:20 | <jess> | that looks like an accidental spam kline |
| 14:00:38 | <jess> | i've removed it |
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| 14:03:47 | <__minoru__shirae> | isson, I was thinking about what happens to fmap when you translate regular functions to kleisli arrows, it was not related to your question, but if you found it useful, that's even better |
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| 14:14:46 | <hololeap> | fmap' :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> f a -> m (f b) |
| 14:15:58 | <hololeap> | :t mapM |
| 14:16:00 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable t, Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> t a -> m (t b) |
| 14:16:29 | <hololeap> | __minoru__shirae: i think fmap would translate to mapM |
| 14:16:57 | <hololeap> | maybe not quite... |
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| 14:18:46 | <hololeap> | although that is interesting that fmap in a kleisli category looks _very_ similar to mapM |
| 14:20:02 | <__minoru__shirae> | I think fmap would translate to nested monads, so that if you call join on them they would become one layer |
| 14:20:28 | <__minoru__shirae> | there is a definition of bind in terms of fmap and join |
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| 14:23:17 | <__minoru__shirae> | I forgot that you can define a monad using only the definitions of return and join |
| 14:24:13 | <__minoru__shirae> | so monad is something like a weird joinable functor |
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| 14:25:23 | <dminuoso> | __minoru__shirae: To make a slight connection to a common joke, there's a monoid here! |
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| 14:25:46 | <dminuoso> | This act of "joining" can be thought of as "combining" layers - and that happens to be monoidal (with all the laws) |
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| 14:27:03 | <dminuoso> | https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/d5ab4ba5d8a5142dde9f4d4c736e3ecb |
| 14:27:08 | <__minoru__shirae> | dminuoso: what's the identity of that monoid? I mean, mempty |
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| 14:27:38 | <__minoru__shirae> | Identity monad? |
| 14:27:39 | <dminuoso> | __minoru__shirae: the layer introduced by return. |
| 14:27:46 | <dminuoso> | __minoru__shirae: Checkout my gist, I made some drawings even |
| 14:28:11 | <dminuoso> | Note that :.: is type level composition. That is `(T :.: T) a` is isomorphic to `T (T a)` |
| 14:28:38 | <dminuoso> | That helps you realize that `Monad` is really *just* about the these `T` layers, not the `a` |
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| 14:31:20 | <__minoru__shirae> | hey, those are monad laws |
| 14:31:53 | <dminuoso> | Cute, isnt it? :) |
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| 14:33:07 | <__minoru__shirae> | I've read in some article lately, that monad laws are a specialization of some more general laws - category laws |
| 14:33:19 | <dminuoso> | Well they can be stated as category laws too |
| 14:33:35 | <__minoru__shirae> | so, in the category of functions, you have the same laws for functions |
| 14:33:46 | <__minoru__shirae> | in the category of functors - the same |
| 14:33:54 | <__minoru__shirae> | and for monads you have monad laws |
| 14:34:53 | <__minoru__shirae> | so, we have functions, lifted functions and kleisli arrows |
| 14:35:06 | <dminuoso> | Roughly, and this is with a bit of handwaving, a third way of expressing the above (monoid and/or monad laws) is this: |
| 14:35:07 | <__minoru__shirae> | or we have regular values, functors and monads |
| 14:35:13 | <dminuoso> | Kleisli composition is associative |
| 14:35:38 | <dminuoso> | that is: (f >=> g) >=> h === f >=> (g >=> h) |
| 14:35:48 | <dminuoso> | And `return` is both left and right identity for (>=>) |
| 14:35:59 | <dminuoso> | They're all equivalent |
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| 14:36:36 | <dminuoso> | The interface of `=<<` has very quirky and non-elegant laws. But we have =<< because it has the right ergonomics for us as a programmer most of the time |
| 14:36:44 | <__minoru__shirae> | I'm waiting for something to "click" in my head, but maybe there is nothing to click, there is just an equivalence and that's all |
| 14:36:50 | <dminuoso> | That's fine, really |
| 14:37:02 | <dminuoso> | Perhaps, think of associativity of having the following relevant impact: |
| 14:37:14 | <dminuoso> | Say you're writing some code in do-notation |
| 14:37:41 | <dminuoso> | do { f <- x; g f; h f; pure (i f) } |
| 14:37:59 | <dminuoso> | Then associativity says floating any fragment out into a separate binding does not alter meaning |
| 14:38:31 | <dminuoso> | So `let c t = g t >> h t in do { f <- x; c f; pure (i f) }` is the same thing |
| 14:39:05 | <dminuoso> | As long as monad laws hold, you can refactor into bindings (changing how things associate implicitly) without altering meaning |
| 14:39:19 | <dminuoso> | And this holds regardless of the monad |
| 14:39:36 | <dminuoso> | So say for `IO`, the following two pieces have the same meaning: |
| 14:40:18 | <dminuoso> | % let f = putStr "Hello" >> putStr " World" in f >> (putStrLn ", Frank") |
| 14:40:18 | <yahb> | dminuoso: Hello World, Frank |
| 14:40:45 | <dminuoso> | % let f = putStr " World" >> putStrLn ", Frank" in (putStr "Hello" >> f) |
| 14:40:45 | <yahb> | dminuoso: Hello World, Frank |
| 14:41:18 | <dminuoso> | As programmers this associativity might be intuitive and natural. Since IO is a monad, we can argue that this holds true precisely for the monad laws. |
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| 14:46:17 | <__minoru__shirae> | why am I thinking about this: there was a question about applying a regular function to a monad |
| 14:46:33 | <__minoru__shirae> | and the first thing that came to my mind was using bind with return |
| 14:46:56 | <__minoru__shirae> | I forgot about much simpler solution that uses fmap |
| 14:47:24 | <__minoru__shirae> | So, now I think, why did I miss it? Maybe I'm missing some intuition here? |
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| 14:50:40 | <__minoru__shirae> | maybe the intuition is as simple as "a monad is a functor" |
| 14:50:51 | <__minoru__shirae> | nothing fancy |
| 14:51:09 | <dminuoso> | Well, all monads are functors, yes. |
| 14:52:07 | <__minoru__shirae> | ok, I think it takes time to get used to that idea at a subconscious level |
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| 14:52:58 | <dminuoso> | I think the main problem with the term "monad" is that it makes you want to understand "what is a monad" - and the question is about as useful as "what is a monoid" |
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| 14:53:09 | <dminuoso> | or "what is a semigroup" |
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| 14:53:41 | <dminuoso> | And while people say "the IO monad", you rarely hear people talking about "the Integer semigroup" |
| 14:54:24 | <Uniaika> | (I hope not!!) |
| 14:54:35 | <merijn> | dminuoso: https://blog.jle.im/entry/io-monad-considered-harmful.html :p |
| 14:54:44 | <merijn> | There, saved you some typing and explanation ;) |
| 14:55:13 | <dminuoso> | merijn: Yeah, that's not quite what Im getting at |
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| 14:56:13 | <dminuoso> | It's just that, being a semigroup has no meaning other than satisfying some laws. It doesn't tell you at all what the operation means, or any other properties. |
| 14:56:18 | <dminuoso> | And monad is just the same |
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| 14:58:09 | <codygman`> | I've been hitting a wall debugging a "libpq: failed (another command is already in progress" error using Data.Pool with persistent. I was wondering if anyone here might be able to help. It seems like Data.Pool happily puts back connections that still have queries running on them. Way more detail here: https://github.com/yesodweb/persistent/issues/1199 |
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| 14:59:08 | <dminuoso> | codygman`: Did you see https://github.com/lpsmith/postgresql-simple/issues/177? |
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| 15:00:36 | <merijn> | codygman`: Are you using any of the conduit query functions from persistent? |
| 15:00:58 | <merijn> | codygman`: like selectSource |
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| 15:01:18 | <codygman`> | We were in prod, but I reproduced without conduit here: https://github.com/codygman/persistent-postgresql-query-in-progress-repro/blob/master/src/Main.hs |
| 15:01:18 | <codygman`> | |
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| 15:02:14 | <dminuoso> | Oh nvm me |
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| 15:02:55 | <dminuoso> | codygman`: Just a random thought, but you are not using COPY are you? |
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| 15:03:44 | <codygman`> | We are using LISTEN in prod via oddjobs, but in that minimal repro it's just a simple rawSql query. |
| 15:07:30 | <codygman`> | If interested and one has the time, it's easy to run yourself with stack and the copy-pastable docker postgres here: https://github.com/codygman/persistent-postgresql-query-in-progress-repro/blob/958e66963c0ad9761149f7ef97fd5ec0d7322f73/src/Main.hs#L21 |
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| 15:08:03 | <merijn> | codygman`: Hold on |
| 15:08:34 | <merijn> | codygman`: Are you *sure* the exception happens during the rawSql |
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| 15:08:57 | <merijn> | codygman`: It looks to me that that exception is just from your concurrent inserts |
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| 15:11:59 | <codygman`> | I know the error is coming from `result`: https://github.com/codygman/persistent-postgresql-query-in-progress-repro/blob/958e66963c0ad9761149f7ef97fd5ec0d7322f73/src/Main.hs#L31. Wouldn't I never get to result if an async exception in inserts happened here: https://github.com/codygman/persistent-postgresql-query-in-progress-repro/blob/958e66963c0ad9761149f7ef97fd5ec0d7322f73/src/Main.hs#L27 |
| 15:12:05 | <merijn> | Anyway |
| 15:12:28 | <merijn> | My recommendation would be to not use persistent if you care about your transactions/cleanup/etc. actually being predictable |
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| 15:13:00 | <merijn> | The entire API is in an entirely incoherent state and IMO cannot be used safely without spending several hours staring at the persistent internals |
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| 15:14:10 | <merijn> | actually |
| 15:14:10 | <codygman`> | I actually spent the time to fork persistent and use unliftio everywhere. And to use the fork of Data.Pool that uses unliftio. That still didn't help :) |
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| 15:14:13 | <merijn> | I see the issue |
| 15:14:25 | <merijn> | And it's related to my existing issue on persistent |
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| 15:14:32 | <merijn> | codygman`: The problem isn't the pool |
| 15:14:43 | <merijn> | codygman`: The problem is that persistent's Statement cache is garbage |
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| 15:15:23 | <codygman`> | I saw that conversation and I was exploring that, but wasn't sure how it would affect this in particular. |
| 15:15:28 | <merijn> | codygman`: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/persistent-2.11.0.2/docs/src/Database.Persist.Sql.Raw.html#rawExecute |
| 15:16:03 | <merijn> | codygman`: Note how: 1) rawExecute is just rawExecuteCount and 2) "stmtReset" is not called via a bracket |
| 15:16:41 | <merijn> | codygman`: That means that if you async interrupt the statement, it's not reset, but the connection is returned to the pool |
| 15:17:15 | <merijn> | codygman`: I don't know postgres, but I suspect the problem is issuing a new statement while one is "still running" |
| 15:17:25 | <codygman`> | It looks like for persistent the postgres stmtReset is just `return ()` lol |
| 15:17:29 | <codygman`> | for postgres* |
| 15:17:57 | <merijn> | ah, not sure about that |
| 15:17:59 | <codygman`> | that is indeed the issue... I tried a workaround where I call PQ.cancel |
| 15:18:02 | <merijn> | but that seems weird |
| 15:18:21 | <codygman`> | Actually the full solution is: PQ.cancel, PQ.consumeInput, PQ.disconnect |
| 15:18:23 | <merijn> | I can't imagine postgres doesn't require resetting/freeing an "in progress" statement |
| 15:19:06 | <codygman`> | Okay, I think I'll try out adding that logic into reset |
| 15:19:06 | <codygman`> | |
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| 15:20:37 | <merijn> | codygman`: I stand by my earlier recommendation, though :) |
| 15:22:25 | <codygman`> | Yeah, but my team is pretty heavily invested in Persistent by now. |
| 15:22:26 | <codygman`> | |
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| 15:22:43 | <merijn> | codygman`: I know all about sunk cost fallacy :p |
| 15:22:48 | <codygman`> | :D |
| 15:23:06 | <merijn> | But at least my excuse is that no one is paying me for future maintenance on my code so since it's working now it can just rot |
| 15:23:33 | <merijn> | That doesn't apply if you have to maintain it long term :p |
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| 15:27:32 | <peanut_> | Hey I'm analyzing GHC Core expressions from GHC.compileToCoreModule and was wondering if theres a way to get a definition (Core Expression) from a vanilla global Var.Id, probably from another module |
| 15:28:08 | <merijn> | peanut_: Sounds like a question with a better chance of success in #ghc? :) |
| 15:28:21 | <peanut_> | Thing is, I'm not working on the GHC |
| 15:28:28 | <peanut_> | I'm just using the GHC package |
| 15:29:14 | <peanut_> | Is #ghc exclusively about GHC development? |
| 15:29:33 | <merijn> | peanut_: tbh, any question involving GHC internals is on-topic there |
| 15:29:54 | <peanut_> | alright thanks, I'll try my luck there |
| 15:30:10 | <peanut_> | didn't want to disrupt GHC development |
| 15:30:13 | <merijn> | peanut_: As long as they're not n00b tier beginner Haskell questions or getting too spammy |
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| 15:30:36 | <merijn> | peanut_: It's fine, it's a fairly quiet channel |
| 15:30:55 | <peanut_> | thanks for the advice :) |
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| 15:34:05 | <codygman`> | I was happy to see you online merijn... it's remarkably difficult to get help on issues with Async exceptions and resource finalization in Haskell. I was wondering if I'd have to jump to #ghc too :) |
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| 15:41:49 | <merijn> | That's because most people aren't anywhere close to paranoid enough for async exceptions :p |
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| 15:44:09 | <bobweb> | Hi. I have this problem: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/cpY67dWg. Would you please help me get this QuickCheck issue from "Haskell from First Principles" resolved? Thank you. |
| 15:45:57 | <merijn> | bobweb: Did the "Double -> Double" signature come from the book or from you? |
| 15:47:01 | <bobweb> | merijin: from me. I got a different error with no type signiture so I added one. |
| 15:47:06 | <int-e> | bobweb: you need a function that returns a Bool. |
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| 15:47:34 | <geekosaur> | right, you need a predicate, something that does a test and produces a Bool result |
| 15:47:44 | <int-e> | so if the book says that |
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| 15:47:54 | <geekosaur> | so halfIdentity is incomplete |
| 15:48:08 | <int-e> | "halfIdentity = (*2) . half" is a property then the book is wrong... but maybe you misread? |
| 15:48:53 | <bobweb> | Well, @#$%! I totally didn't see that and of course it needs a Bool to test against. DUH! Thank you all. |
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| 15:49:26 | <bobweb> | No, the book expected me to see the need for a Bool function. |
| 15:50:00 | <bobweb> | int-e |
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| 15:50:32 | <bobweb> | Thanks again. |
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| 15:56:11 | <codygman`> | merijn: I agree... people are too lax about async exceptions. I think part of the problem is how far you can get without worrying about them. If you had to confront them earlier though... would people stick around? :D |
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| 15:56:29 | <merijn> | codygman`: I mean, they're not worse than in other languages |
| 15:56:41 | <merijn> | async exceptions are just hard |
| 15:57:24 | <c_wraith> | they're not a problem in Haskell if your program is allowed to just.. fail |
| 15:57:34 | <merijn> | c_wraith: Then they still are |
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| 15:57:54 | <merijn> | Resource cleanup is still a mess, see persistent |
| 15:58:05 | <geekosaur> | that's not "just.. fail" |
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| 16:00:29 | <c_wraith> | persistent? the database interface? What does it need to clean up that the database doesn't handle? |
| 16:01:09 | <merijn> | c_wraith: I meant that the earlier example shows how it's near impossible to reliably trigger cleanups for async exceptions |
| 16:01:16 | <codygman`> | For my case with postgres, it needs to destroy connections that are aborted or properly reset them before putting them back in the pool. |
| 16:01:30 | <codygman`> | my case above* |
| 16:01:36 | <c_wraith> | once you have a pool, you're way past just failing. |
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| 16:02:21 | <merijn> | c_wraith: I didn't mean that persistent is an example of "can't just fail", if your application just exists the DB will recover |
| 16:02:50 | <merijn> | c_wraith: My point was that persistent illustrates that simply "trigger cleanup before bailing/crashing" is already near impossible |
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| 16:07:25 | <dminuoso> | merijn: Regarding persistent, Ive been handrolling a few bits and pieces for neat SQL generation. |
| 16:07:46 | <dminuoso> | And every time I do it, I too stand by "dont use persistent" :) |
| 16:09:05 | <codygman`> | c_wraith: I'm not sure what you mean by 'once you have a pool you're way past just failing'. The pool is supposed to help you be resilient to failure and use resources more efficiently right? |
| 16:09:24 | <merijn> | codygman`: Right, so you're not itending to "just fail" |
| 16:09:32 | <c_wraith> | codygman`: By "just fail", I mean the whole program. If you're recovering, you're doing way more than just failing |
| 16:10:55 | <dminuoso> | 16:17:25 codygman` | It looks like for persistent the postgres stmtReset is just `return ()` lol |
| 16:11:06 | <dminuoso> | codygman`: You're leaping to conclusions I think |
| 16:11:21 | <dminuoso> | Staring at the persistent code, `stmtReset = return ()` *only* for prepare |
| 16:11:44 | <merijn> | dminuoso: What I like is that the whole persistent API is designed around the eager resource cleanup of conduit |
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| 16:12:02 | <merijn> | dminuoso: "Wait, but didn't conduit stop supporting eager resource cleanup?" |
| 16:12:09 | <merijn> | Why yes, yes, it did. |
| 16:12:27 | <merijn> | Did the persistent API get refactored to be sensible in this new world? |
| 16:12:34 | <merijn> | Well, no, duh |
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| 16:15:37 | <codygman`> | dminuoso: prepare is the stmtReset that is called by Database.Persist.Sql.Raw.getStmtConnection meaning for postgres stmtReset does nothing. |
| 16:15:49 | <codygman`> | I just rechecked in case though :) |
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| 16:16:44 | <dminuoso> | codygman`: not quite |
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| 16:17:12 | <dminuoso> | oh hold on |
| 16:17:14 | <dminuoso> | I see |
| 16:17:46 | <dminuoso> | This code looks a bit fishy |
| 16:18:10 | <codygman`> | >--<> |
| 16:18:44 | <dminuoso> | >=> |
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| 16:40:30 | <__minoru__shirae> | codygman`: "people are too lax about async exceptions. I think part of the problem is how far you can get without worrying about them. If you had to confront them earlier though... would people stick around? :D" |
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| 16:41:19 | <__minoru__shirae> | so what one to do with async exceptions? |
| 16:41:21 | <__minoru__shirae> | a beginner doesn't worry about them |
| 16:41:34 | <dminuoso> | [pack (tagFieldName (sumEncoding opts)) | fromTaggedSum] |
| 16:41:38 | <dminuoso> | What kind of syntax is this? |
| 16:41:41 | <__minoru__shirae> | a next-level beginner uses mask and bracket |
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| 16:42:53 | <dminuoso> | Oh hold on, this is just a conditionally empty list. |
| 16:42:58 | <__minoru__shirae> | does stm take care of async exceptions somehow? so a programmer doesn't have to worry about them. |
| 16:43:12 | <dminuoso> | __minoru__shirae: The problem of async exceptions begins when you escape the haskell RTS. |
| 16:43:22 | <merijn> | dminuoso: pfft |
| 16:43:27 | <merijn> | dminuoso: It begins waaaaay earlier |
| 16:43:29 | <dminuoso> | heh |
| 16:43:32 | <dminuoso> | well thats when it gets real nasty |
| 16:43:49 | <dminuoso> | Some bits I really dont get. |
| 16:44:09 | <dminuoso> | Like how `mask` is named `mask` and not just `maskSometimes` |
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| 16:44:20 | <dminuoso> | Or maybe `maskButNotReally` |
| 16:45:17 | <__minoru__shirae> | there is uninterruptibleMask |
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| 16:45:41 | <__minoru__shirae> | but the book says " |
| 16:45:43 | <__minoru__shirae> | Every instance of uninterruptibleMask should be |
| 16:45:44 | <__minoru__shirae> | treated with the utmost suspicion. |
| 16:45:49 | <__minoru__shirae> | " |
| 16:46:05 | <merijn> | Every use of mask should be treated with the utmost suspicion |
| 16:46:17 | <dminuoso> | __minoru__shirae: the thing is, `mask` does not even give you the slightest hint that it doesnt really mask |
| 16:46:24 | <dminuoso> | Which makes it dangerous to use |
| 16:46:30 | <merijn> | All code that's not been examined should be assumed "wrong" when it comes to async exceptions |
| 16:46:31 | <dminuoso> | You get a false sense of security |
| 16:46:54 | <merijn> | All code that's been examined and proven "not wrong" should be assumed "only probably wrong" |
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| 16:47:11 | <dminuoso> | __minoru__shirae: then add that `bracket` uses `mask` |
| 16:47:22 | <dminuoso> | so suddenly if you use `bracket`, you're only semi protected against async exceptoins |
| 16:47:29 | <merijn> | dminuoso: I already campaigned against that in 7 years ago |
| 16:47:39 | <merijn> | dminuoso: Got too many complaints to go through with it |
| 16:47:52 | <dminuoso> | merijn: Just go and use `unliftio` everywhere |
| 16:47:56 | <merijn> | dminuoso: No |
| 16:48:01 | <dminuoso> | It comes with cleaned up Control.Exception :P |
| 16:48:08 | <merijn> | It does not |
| 16:48:13 | <dminuoso> | Its surely better than what base comes with |
| 16:48:30 | <dminuoso> | No accidentally catching async exceptions, and bracket defaults to uninterruptibleMask |
| 16:48:36 | <merijn> | It comes with a Snoyman-opinionated cleaned up Control.Exception that is useless unless all your transitive dependencies use it too |
| 16:48:46 | <merijn> | It also has a massive dependency footprint |
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| 16:49:07 | <dminuoso> | a massive dependency footprint? |
| 16:49:13 | <dminuoso> | dunno, most of them I depend on anyway |
| 16:49:23 | <dminuoso> | and its *really* harmless |
| 16:51:38 | <dminuoso> | merijn: Also I disagree with your characterization that its useless unless [...] |
| 16:51:51 | <dminuoso> | It adds value the moment you use it. Every boundary that doesnt recover from an async exception is good. |
| 16:52:25 | <dminuoso> | Of course it'd be great if the entirety of hackage adhered to this, but in an imperfect world I take some cleanliness over none |
| 16:52:27 | <merijn> | dminuoso: I mean that it leaves all of my transitive dependencies free to have completely broken async exception handling/bracketing |
| 16:52:36 | <dminuoso> | sure |
| 16:52:46 | <dminuoso> | but my goal is not to make the world perfect |
| 16:52:47 | <merijn> | And all in all I trust my transitive dependencies far less than *my* async code :p |
| 16:53:09 | <merijn> | Because I am paranoid and have worked on async + distributed runtime systems before :p |
| 16:53:34 | <merijn> | I don't need protecting from me (well, I do...but not as much as I need protecting from *everyone else*) |
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| 16:55:53 | <__minoru__shirae> | how about using stm? a transaction gets rolled back, so no need to worry about async exceptions breaking consistency, right? |
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| 16:58:17 | <geekosaur> | you can't do IO during an STM transaction, and if you could how would you e.g. rollback a write? |
| 16:58:29 | <fresheyeball> | If Maybe = (+ 1) |
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| 16:58:33 | <fresheyeball> | what is []? |
| 16:58:45 | <fresheyeball> | is [] = (+ Infinity)? |
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| 16:58:54 | <__minoru__shirae> | geekosaur: yeah, was wondering about that too |
| 16:59:50 | <geekosaur> | fresheyeball: look at it in terms of its definition, data List a = [] | Cons a (List a) |
| 17:00:25 | <geekosaur> | so not quite (+ Inf), since it can be finite |
| 17:01:23 | <monochrom> | Infinite series. [a] = 1 + a + a*a + a*a*a + ... |
| 17:01:27 | <fresheyeball> | geekosaur: doesn't that just make it a larger infinite? |
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| 17:01:55 | <codygman`> | merijn: Perhaps I'll carry on your "fix bracket" torch from 7 years ago if I ever get this fixed. |
| 17:01:55 | <fresheyeball> | If it can be infinite list, or a finite list, doesn't that just mean the cardinality is bigger than a countable infinity? |
| 17:01:56 | <codygman`> | |
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| 17:02:25 | <geekosaur> | it's still countable |
| 17:02:36 | <monochrom> | You are really better off writing out "Maybe a = 1+a" instead of trying to be pointfree with "Maybe = (1 +)". The pointfree form doesn't scale. |
| 17:03:14 | <dminuoso> | monochrom: I disagree. Everybody should @pl their code to lambdabot before committing. It scales! |
| 17:03:28 | <dminuoso> | Completely pointless code. Guaranteed. |
| 17:04:01 | <fresheyeball> | geekosaur: how so? Does the diagonal proof not apply here? Can't I just invent a new list with a different member? |
| 17:04:36 | <geekosaur> | it wouldn't describe the same type |
| 17:04:48 | <fresheyeball> | [Int] ? |
| 17:05:00 | <fresheyeball> | why not? |
| 17:05:17 | <fresheyeball> | I don't see why the diagonal proof doesn't apply to lists |
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| 17:05:48 | <geekosaur> | maybe I'm misunderstanding you. but if you added an arbitrary thing it would not then be a list of a, but a list of a plus an item of some b /= a |
| 17:06:03 | <fresheyeball> | oic |
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| 17:06:21 | <fresheyeball> | well I then I think perhaps let's consider this |
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| 17:06:23 | <fresheyeball> | [()] |
| 17:06:32 | <fresheyeball> | because then no diagonal right? |
| 17:06:40 | <fresheyeball> | but still, I can have an infinite list of [()] |
| 17:06:47 | <fresheyeball> | and a finite list of arbitrary size |
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| 17:07:28 | <monochrom> | That is still not "1 + infinity". |
| 17:07:59 | <monochrom> | If [Int] were = 1 + infinity, where is "Int" in "1 + infinity"? |
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| 17:08:10 | <monochrom> | err sorry misread, nevermind. |
| 17:08:26 | <fresheyeball> | I start counting like this |
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| 17:08:29 | <fresheyeball> | [] = 1 |
| 17:08:33 | <fresheyeball> | [()] = 2 |
| 17:08:34 | <monochrom> | But [()] is still not () + infinity. [Int] is still not Int + Infinity. (Where is the empty list?) |
| 17:08:38 | <fresheyeball> | [(), ()] = 3 |
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| 17:09:08 | <monochrom> | How about [Int]? How abou [Bool]? |
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| 17:09:29 | <monochrom> | Where is [True, False, False, True, False] in your scheme? |
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| 17:09:53 | <fresheyeball> | Well if [()] is an uncountable infinity, because of infinite lists in addition to an infinite number of finite lists. |
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| 17:10:02 | <fresheyeball> | then I think it doesn't matter actually |
| 17:10:17 | <fresheyeball> | Whatever we put in the list, it wont change the cardinality |
| 17:10:22 | <hyperisco> | fresheyeball, the arithmetic interpretation is just the same as if you have a recursive arithmetic expression |
| 17:10:39 | <hyperisco> | fresheyeball, so you can analyse in various ways... it is an infinite series |
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| 17:12:05 | <hyperisco> | fresheyeball, for example you can rearrange to a polynomial and, interestingly, the derivative is the same as the zipper https://pavpanchekha.com/blog/zippers/derivative.html |
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| 17:12:57 | <fresheyeball> | math buddy of mine in another channel is telling me it's aleph nought |
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| 17:13:13 | <geekosaur> | there''s some questions there iirc |
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| 17:14:00 | <geekosaur> | well, no, aleph0 is pretty well accepted, it's the next one up there are questions about. but they're just describing countable infinity in another way |
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| 17:14:38 | <hyperisco> | I suspect this is liable to get lost in translation |
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| 17:33:05 | <__minoru__shirae> | so if you're paranoid about async exceptions, you can prepend everything with mask_ |
| 17:33:07 | <__minoru__shirae> | right? |
| 17:33:15 | <fresheyeball> | ok it's been explained to me |
| 17:33:30 | <__minoru__shirae> | it will make everything unresponsive to async exceptions |
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| 17:34:05 | <codygman`> | __minoru__shirae: That doesn't catch all async exceptions :) uninterruptibleMask roughly does what you believe mask does |
| 17:34:21 | <__minoru__shirae> | yeah, was about to write about that |
| 17:35:21 | <__minoru__shirae> | how about emulating actors? |
| 17:35:55 | <__minoru__shirae> | if you want to kill a thread, you don't throw an async exception to it, you send a PoisonPill message instead |
| 17:36:10 | <__minoru__shirae> | sounds like it solves a problem of async exceptions |
| 17:36:27 | <__minoru__shirae> | (those that a programmer sends) |
| 17:36:52 | <__minoru__shirae> | not sure about async exceptions that a system sends |
| 17:38:24 | <__minoru__shirae> | a thread handles one message at a time and eventually it will get to that PoisonPill message and terminate safely |
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| 17:40:38 | <__minoru__shirae> | the question is, can you be sure that since you don't throw async exceptions they won't be thrown at all |
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| 17:41:05 | <codygman`> | No, you have to depend on your dependencies not throwing them |
| 17:41:05 | <codygman`> | |
| 17:41:17 | <__minoru__shirae> | seems to me that a system can do it on its own |
| 17:41:36 | <__minoru__shirae> | and dependencies too |
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| 17:44:09 | <__minoru__shirae> | and there is a need to cancel a long-running operation |
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| 17:45:08 | <__minoru__shirae> | tricky |
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| 17:47:51 | <codygman`> | agreed |
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| 17:48:13 | edwardk | unsafeCoerces all the things. |
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| 17:48:29 | <Uniaika> | edwardk: the gods are watching over you, that's cheating :P |
| 17:49:02 | <edwardk> | as georgew likes to slur out almost unintelligibly "she'll be right" |
| 17:49:42 | <hyperisco> | what are type systems for if not to explain valid uses of unsafeCoerce |
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| 17:50:12 | <edwardk> | hyperisco: need a better type system than haskell for these sadly |
| 17:50:33 | <edwardk> | actually i only have 5 in the current codebase |
| 17:50:40 | <edwardk> | so i feel i'm getting better |
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| 18:01:16 | <jhrcek> | Hello tapas, |
| 18:01:16 | <jhrcek> | sorry for pinging your directly, but someone told me you help me with |
| 18:01:16 | <jhrcek> | I have a PR (https://github.com/haskell-hvr/base-noprelude/pull/13) to one of hvr_ 's repositories that I'd like to get merged and relase to hackage. But someone told me he's been AWOL for some time and that you could maybe assit in moving this forward? |
| 18:02:36 | <__minoru__shirae> | edwardk: did you mention unsafeCoerce in response to async exceptions discussion? It looks like it has nothing to do with them, but who knows? |
| 18:02:49 | <edwardk> | no relevance |
| 18:02:58 | <edwardk> | was just staring at a screen full of unsafeCoerces at the time |
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| 18:03:51 | <ephemient> | ekmettCoerce = unsafeCoerce and alpha-rename throughout your codebase, now you only only have "one" reference ;) |
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| 18:04:16 | <edwardk> | ephemient: we used to do that in lens with 'coerce = unsafeCoerce' |
| 18:04:27 | <edwardk> | then coerce got good enough we could avoid it |
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| 18:06:09 | <__minoru__shirae> | edwardk: oh, ok lol. it's interesting how a mind tries to make sense of things that don't make sense. I tried to imagine a scenario when unsafeCoerce helps with async exceptions problem |
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| 18:06:41 | <wickedjargon> | Hello fellow haskellers. Has anyone read The Little Schemer? |
| 18:06:46 | <edwardk> | wickedjargon: yes |
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| 18:09:13 | <wickedjargon> | edwardk: Do you think it was helpful to you? I got frustarted with it after a few chapters and gave up a few years ago, but am now considering to finish reading it |
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| 18:10:32 | <nshepperd> | the purpose of type safety is to give unsafeCoerce meaning, just as there is no joy without regret |
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| 18:16:53 | <wickedjargon> | package install |
| 18:16:53 | <wickedjargon> | learn |
| 18:16:53 | <wickedjargon> | n |
| 18:16:55 | <wickedjargon> | plegxe-1exfexe;;'exe;'x1exelearn o |
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| 18:23:01 | <tapas> | jhrcek: i'll take a look later, but this may be something to take to the hackage trustees |
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| 18:35:17 | <adamCS> | Given two things, a and b, which may or may not be of the same type, how do I somehow get Maybe (a :~: b)? I'm trying to write an instance of GEq for something of kind (Type -> Type) but not one with constructors to distinguish the possible types. |
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| 18:44:00 | <adamCS> | Okay. I guess I can use TestEquality (?). But now I need GCompare and that seems...not sensible. Hrm. |
| 18:44:57 | <WarzoneCommand> | Can anyone give me some advice on writing a Storable instance for some sum-type? I don't really get what alignment is suposed to do/how to incorporate alignment in peek and poke. |
| 18:47:04 | <geekosaur> | alignment is because Storable is about making C-compatible structs from Haskell values, and C aligns struct members |
| 18:47:20 | <WarzoneCommand> | as a concrete example; I have something like 'data Node k v = Leaf v | Node {-#UNPACK #} !Int !k {-# Unpack #-} !Int. The I want a storeable instance when k and v are storeable, and I don't care about any sort of interop with C (I just want to be able to store these things in Storeable vectors). |
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| 18:48:40 | <WarzoneCommand> | so I did something like: sizeOf _ = 1 + max(sizeOf @v, 2*sizeOf @Int + sizeOf @v). But so how do I determine the alignment? |
| 18:48:55 | <WarzoneCommand> | or at least that is what I would expect the size to be |
| 18:53:51 | <geekosaur> | I slightly misspoke earlier, because of unaligned memory accesses which are at best slower on some CPUs and at worst throw machine exceptions; you should assume the latter. |
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| 18:56:21 | <geekosaur> | and your 1 + becomes sizeOf Int + to avoid everything else being unaligned. plus I think you meant sizeOf @k for the second one? but k may not have a fixed size so that won't work anyway |
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| 18:57:13 | <geekosaur> | er, sizeOf @Int |
| 18:57:33 | <WarzoneCommand> | euh yes I meant sizeOf @k in the second part. |
| 18:58:17 | <WarzoneCommand> | hmm, but so in that case I would bascially use the amount of space for *both* options simulataneously? |
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| 19:00:39 | <WarzoneCommand> | let me maybe clarify again, because my earlier typo was confusing. Why would: '1 + max(sizeOf @v, 2*sizeOf @Int + sizeOf @k) not suffice? |
| 19:01:22 | <WarzoneCommand> | (i.e. as long as k and v are storable themselves / it is known how much space they will use beforehand that should not be an issue sholuld it?) |
| 19:01:54 | <geekosaur> | the 1+ means 1 byte for a discriminator and now you get a SIGBUS or equivalent accessing the rest on almost all platforms. I suggested using a CInt instead |
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| 19:02:47 | <geekosaur> | hence sizeOf @Int |
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| 19:04:34 | <WarzoneCommand> | Hmm, I see |
| 19:05:13 | <Gurkenglas> | @let VeryLazyNaturals = S VeryLazyNaturals -- All you get get out of these is a confirmation that they're in a set of form [n..]. |
| 19:05:14 | <lambdabot> | .L.hs:173:1: error: |
| 19:05:14 | <lambdabot> | Not in scope: data constructor ‘VeryLazyNaturals’ |
| 19:05:14 | <lambdabot> | | |
| 19:05:26 | <Gurkenglas> | @let data VeryLazyNaturals = S VeryLazyNaturals -- :( |
| 19:05:27 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
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| 19:06:05 | <geekosaur> | The rest, if it's Storable… try it, I guess. |
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| 19:07:26 | <tomsmeding> | Gurkenglas: can you give a terminating value of that type? |
| 19:07:53 | <Gurkenglas> | tomsmeding, well no, then you can get more than such a confirmation out of them |
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| 19:08:13 | <Gurkenglas> | but i can write you a getter and a value and itll behave as i said |
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| 19:08:17 | <tomsmeding> | in the usual terminology, a type that has no terminating value is empty |
| 19:08:30 | <tomsmeding> | okay that makes no sense in haskell |
| 19:08:34 | <Gurkenglas> | then i would like to use the unusual terminology |
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| 19:08:39 | <tomsmeding> | ye s:p |
| 19:08:40 | <tomsmeding> | *yes |
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| 19:08:54 | <dolio> | Those aren't naturals. |
| 19:09:05 | <tomsmeding> | okay, try 2: there is only one value of VeryLazyNaturals |
| 19:09:08 | <tomsmeding> | namely 'fix S' |
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| 19:09:37 | <tomsmeding> | and hence it contains no information |
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| 19:10:07 | <dolio> | There's only one fully defined value. |
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| 19:11:15 | <Gurkenglas> | :t (isatleast, five) |
| 19:11:16 | <lambdabot> | (Int -> VeryLazyNaturals -> (), VeryLazyNaturals) |
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| 19:11:30 | <Gurkenglas> | > isatleast 3 five |
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| 19:11:32 | <lambdabot> | () |
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| 19:13:18 | <tomsmeding> | > isatleast 6 five |
| 19:13:20 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: Prelude.undefined |
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| 19:14:46 | <Gurkenglas> | @let type VeryLazyNegativeIntegers = VeryLazyNaturals -> () -- All you can get out of these is that they're in a set of form [-n..], where n may be infinity. |
| 19:14:48 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
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| 19:16:12 | <tomsmeding> | only if you consider two elements distinct even if they can be distinguished only by checking whether a computation crashes or not |
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| 19:16:25 | <tomsmeding> | you can, in IO |
| 19:16:41 | <tomsmeding> | but I'd guess that you don't want to involve IO here |
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| 19:19:05 | <Gurkenglas> | :t (isatleast', negativethree) |
| 19:19:07 | <lambdabot> | (Int -> VeryLazyNegativeIntegers -> (), VeryLazyNaturals -> ()) |
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| 19:20:44 | <Gurkenglas> | (Should have said Integral instead of Int there so you can test atleast' on infinity) |
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| 19:22:51 | <Gurkenglas> | VeryLazyNegativeIntegers prove that not every element of any type can be reached from bottom in an ordinal number of finest possible steps :( |
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| 19:35:48 | <Gurkenglas> | @let plus a b = a `lub` let S b' = b in S $ plus a b' in plus -- sadly, lambdabot doesn't support the lub library. |
| 19:35:48 | <lambdabot> | Parse failed: Parse error: in |
| 19:36:05 | <Gurkenglas> | (hmm, worked with ":t " instead of "@") |
| 19:36:15 | <Gurkenglas> | oh, heh |
| 19:36:24 | <Gurkenglas> | @let plus a b = a `lub` let S b' = b in S $ plus a b' |
| 19:36:26 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
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| 19:51:37 | <Gurkenglas> | min and max are just glb and lub, of course. |
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| 19:53:57 | <tomsmeding> | Gurkenglas: can you define subtraction? |
| 19:54:59 | <tomsmeding> | (without IO) |
| 19:56:17 | <Gurkenglas> | I'm afraid not - the functions i can implement are exactly the monotonously increasing functions, and (3-) is not monotonous. |
| 19:56:34 | <Gurkenglas> | uh, it's called monotonic in english |
| 19:57:25 | <Gurkenglas> | (i mean, i think i can do all the monotonic ones... can you find one i can't? :) ) |
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| 20:05:36 | <tomsmeding> | Gurkenglas: floor(log(x)) |
| 20:05:48 | <tomsmeding> | okay perhaps floor(log(x+1)) |
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| 20:06:39 | <hololeap> | i don't understand where the `source-repository` stanza is supposed to go in my cabal file |
| 20:06:56 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: what have you tried? |
| 20:07:23 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: this works for me https://github.com/tomsmeding/pastebin-haskell/blob/master/pastebin-haskell.cabal |
| 20:07:31 | <tomsmeding> | though I haven't tried submitting to hackage |
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| 20:07:48 | <hololeap> | tomsmeding: https://dpaste.com/5PJ4867V2 |
| 20:09:13 | <hololeap> | tomsmeding: this is what it complains about https://dpaste.com/6895574ZH |
| 20:09:44 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: does that only happen for 'cabal check'? Can you 'cabal build' successfully? |
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| 20:12:24 | <motte> | hi, i'm trying to use yesod and for some reason terminal input isn't working when doing stack exec -- yesod devel. pressing enter should trigger a rebuild, but nothing happens (except a blank line appearing in the terminal window) |
| 20:12:49 | <hololeap> | tomsmeding: no it was giving me the same for 'cabal build', but i figured out that it works if i move the stanza down near the 'library' stanza |
| 20:13:00 | <motte> | any idea what's wrong with my setup? tried a different shell, a different terminal emulator, still not working |
| 20:13:22 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: and in that position cabal check still fails? |
| 20:14:10 | <hololeap> | tomsmeding: there are no errors or warnings after i moved it |
| 20:14:34 | <motte> | oh also, typing help should print a help text, but this also doesn't work |
| 20:14:53 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: I am somewhat disturbed that you get a linker error, of all things, but it sounds to me like you've found a solution (move the clause down) |
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| 20:15:07 | <tomsmeding> | motte: are you sure that 'yesod devel' should give a terminal interface? |
| 20:15:57 | <hololeap> | tomsmeding: i don't think i got a linker error, did i? just a bunch of warnings |
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| 20:16:06 | <tomsmeding> | motte: https://www.yesodweb.com/page/quickstart says "Also, if you choose the "mini" scaffolding, yesod devel will not work." -- no idea about yesod, but that sounds perhaps related? |
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| 20:16:20 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: that 'error while loading shared libraries' is a linker error |
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| 20:16:37 | <tomsmeding> | or at least, it looks like one |
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| 20:17:31 | <hololeap> | oh, i think i know what that is from. it isn't an error i was getting except with this `wgetpaste` utility. my global env is screwy right now and it isn't finding the env installed by ghcup |
| 20:17:37 | <ephemient> | well, I see in https://github.com/yesodweb/yesod/blob/master/yesod-bin/Devel.hs that it runs stack build --fast --file-watch, so that's what would be interpreting enter to rebuild / help / etc. |
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| 20:17:40 | <motte> | tomsmeding: well i'm watching a tutorial of yesod, and the author demonstrates terminal input by pressing enter to rebuild, so i guess it should work |
| 20:17:48 | <ephemient> | but it's unclear to me if stdin is wired up for that |
| 20:18:00 | <ephemient> | it may have changed in different versions |
| 20:18:04 | <motte> | tomsmeding: i'm not using the mini scaffolding so probably unrelated |
| 20:18:21 | <hololeap> | tomsmeding: if that makes sense |
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| 20:19:17 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: I don't see anything else than that error, so not sure what warnings you're getting |
| 20:19:29 | <tomsmeding> | but what about moving the stanza down does not work? |
| 20:19:37 | <tomsmeding> | putting it in between the header lines looks suspicious anyway |
| 20:20:05 | <hololeap> | wgetpaste is a utility that can publish the output of a command, and i didn't bother to check what it had published |
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| 20:20:17 | <hololeap> | so that error is completely different from what i was getting |
| 20:20:26 | <hololeap> | but, no, moving it _did_ fix it |
| 20:20:53 | <tomsmeding> | in general, the form of a cabal file is cabal-version; further header lines; stanzas |
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| 20:21:06 | <tomsmeding> | as far as I know |
| 20:21:22 | <hololeap> | gotcha. it does look 'better' with the stanza moved down. i will do that in the future. |
| 20:22:01 | <ephemient> | motte: I'm not familiar with Yesod, but it looks like the devel server changed behavior several years ago. do you know how old the tutorial you're watching is? |
| 20:22:06 | <ephemient> | https://github.com/yesodweb/yesod/pull/1305 |
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| 20:22:38 | <hololeap> | i'm also a bit confused about the --documentation flag for cabal upload |
| 20:22:45 | × | Squarism quits (~someone@unaffiliated/squarism) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 20:22:54 | <hololeap> | will the documentation be generated on hackage without this flag? |
| 20:23:01 | <epstein> | is there a haskell evaluator here? |
| 20:23:19 | <Rembane> | > 1 + 1 |
| 20:23:21 | <lambdabot> | 2 |
| 20:23:28 | <codygman`> | re: postgres connection leaking in persistent. I think my issues are because resourcet.with says "resource will be freed as soon as the inner block is exited, whether normally or via an exception." So even if a ReleaseException happens the resource goes back into the pool? Maybe freed also counts destroying a resource as freeing. |
| 20:23:51 | <motte> | it's from 2020 spring, so fairly new. i'm fairly sure this *should* work as the application says on startup "Type help for available commands", 'quit' to quit etc. |
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| 20:26:48 | <epstein> | > zip (repeat "anal") ["slavery", "bondage", "spanking", "juicing", "domination", "nuking"] |
| 20:26:50 | <lambdabot> | [("anal","slavery"),("anal","bondage"),("anal","spanking"),("anal","juicing"... |
| 20:27:25 | <geekosaur> | re cabal stanzas, it looks like source-repository comes after the header but before library and executable stanzas? per https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-package.html#source-repositories |
| 20:27:33 | × | mikoto-chan quits (~anass@gateway/tor-sasl/mikoto-chan) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 20:27:50 | <epstein> | > (repeat "spank") ++ "geekosaur" |
| 20:27:52 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 20:27:52 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match type ‘Char’ with ‘[Char]’ |
| 20:27:53 | <lambdabot> | Expected type: [[Char]] |
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| 20:28:32 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector-0.12.2.0/vector.cabal does not conform to that |
| 20:28:36 | <Gurkenglas> | > join (repeat "spank") ++ "geekosaur" -- it's pushed to infinity, of course |
| 20:28:38 | <lambdabot> | "spankspankspankspankspankspankspankspankspankspankspankspankspankspankspank... |
| 20:29:23 | <geekosaur> | but it does follow the header, at least |
| 20:29:40 | <tomsmeding> | that it does :) |
| 20:30:03 | <epstein> | ah |
| 20:30:12 | <epstein> | huh |
| 20:30:32 | <epstein> | > zip (repeat "yummy ") (repeat "geekosaur") |
| 20:30:34 | <lambdabot> | [("yummy ","geekosaur"),("yummy ","geekosaur"),("yummy ","geekosaur"),("yumm... |
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| 20:31:00 | <hololeap> | anyone know the answer to my question, before all this started? |
| 20:31:06 | × | DTZUZU quits (~DTZUZO@205.ip-149-56-132.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 20:32:37 | <hololeap> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/unlift-stm-0.1.0.0/candidate |
| 20:32:50 | <hololeap> | this doesn't show any docs. is it because it is a candidate or do i need to upload them? |
| 20:33:08 | <hololeap> | they get built fine locally with `cabal haddock` |
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| 20:34:44 | <geekosaur> | becuase it's a candidate and it won't do a build until after it's published, iirc |
| 20:34:58 | <hololeap> | ok, i'm gonna go for it then |
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| 20:35:07 | <hololeap> | first upload to hackage, woo |
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| 20:37:17 | <epstein> | > foldl ++ "" (repeat "Lube") |
| 20:37:19 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 20:37:19 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match expected type ‘[a]’ |
| 20:37:19 | <lambdabot> | with actual type ‘(b0 -> a0 -> b0) -> b0 -> t0 a0 -> b0’ |
| 20:37:35 | <epstein> | > foldl (++) "" (repeat "Lube") |
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| 20:37:41 | <lambdabot> | mueval-core: Time limit exceeded |
| 20:38:04 | <epstein> | >foldr (++) (repeat "Lube") (++) |
| 20:38:13 | <epstein> | >foldr (++) (repeat "Lube") "" |
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| 20:38:44 | tomsmeding | wonders if there is a moderator around |
| 20:38:57 | ChanServ | sets mode +q *!*@193.27.14.135 |
| 20:39:16 | <tomsmeding> | thank you kind person! |
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| 20:40:22 | <hololeap> | 🎉️ |
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| 20:41:59 | <jess> | hi epstein |
| 20:42:04 | <jess> | oh |
| 20:42:05 | <jess> | im late |
| 20:42:37 | <Gurkenglas> | @let overS f (S x) = S $ f x; eval :: (Int -> Int) -> VeryLazyNaturals -> VeryLazyNaturals; eval f = foldr (.) (overS $ eval $ subtract (f 0) . f . (+1)) $ replicate (f 0) S -- tomsmeding, this applies any monotonic Int function to a VeryLazyNatural :) |
| 20:42:39 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 20:42:41 | <__minoru__shirae> | codygman`: whether resourcet is a source of error or not depends on whether it runs the freeing function in response to an async exception, and also depends on what is written in that freeing function |
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| 20:48:48 | <tomsmeding> | Gurkenglas: for which 'f' is 'eval f x' not equal to 'iterate S x !! f 0' |
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| 20:49:12 | <tomsmeding> | (assuming we're only talking about functions 'f' that map naturals to naturals) |
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| 20:52:11 | <Gurkenglas> | (actually that eval is slightly wrong but not in the way you say, lemme fix) |
| 20:54:22 | <hololeap> | this seems messed up as far as the docs and the links. publishing didn't seem to help: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/unlift-stm-0.1.0.0 |
| 20:54:38 | <hololeap> | i'd appreciate any help |
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| 20:56:41 | <hololeap> | if anyone missed the context, this is my first upload to hackage and the docs and links were messed up in the candidate version. geekosaur seemed to think the docs would be built once it was fully published |
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| 20:57:05 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: it says "Docs pending" under status; perhaps patience is in order? |
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| 20:57:26 | <hololeap> | lol that was not obviouis |
| 20:57:34 | <hololeap> | anyway, that's good |
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| 20:59:34 | <slack1256> | 11 |
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| 20:59:42 | <slack1256> | Sorry. mistyped. |
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| 21:01:09 | <Gurkenglas> | @let eval' :: (Int -> Int) -> VeryLazyNaturals -> VeryLazyNaturals; eval' f = foldr (.) id (replicate (f 0) S) . (\(S x) -> eval' (subtract (f 0) . f . (+1)) x) -- that actually took a fair number of tries. turns out foo . unS is more like (\ ~(S x) -> foo x) than (\(S x) -> foo x) |
| 21:01:11 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
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| 21:01:23 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: it says "no install-plan found" in the CI matrix: https://matrix.hackage.haskell.org/#/package/unlift-stm |
| 21:01:32 | <tomsmeding> | not sure if that's temporary, but it doesn't sound good |
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| 21:01:44 | <tomsmeding> | ooooo ignore that it has only checked old ghc's still |
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| 21:02:05 | <Gurkenglas> | tomsmeding, do you think this is right? |
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| 21:03:30 | <hololeap> | ok, cool. the docs have been built. however, the links in my description are pointing to the wrong locations |
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| 21:05:14 | <hololeap> | for instance, i have this in the cabal file description: ... analagous to the functionalty for the IO monad found in "Control.Monad.IO.Class" ... |
| 21:05:50 | <hololeap> | but it's pointing to https://hackage.haskell.org/package/unlift-stm-0.1.0.0/docs/Control-Monad-IO-Class.html |
| 21:06:21 | <hololeap> | as opposed to https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base/docs/Control-Monad-IO-Class.html |
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| 21:07:30 | <hololeap> | how would i correct this? |
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| 21:08:37 | <Gurkenglas> | > eval (+1) $ S undefined -- <tomsmeding> Gurkenglas: for which 'f' is 'eval f x' not equal to 'iterate S x !! f 0' :) although you may have been thinking "either that implementation is wrong or this equality holds" |
| 21:08:40 | <lambdabot> | S (S (S *Exception: Prelude.undefined |
| 21:08:53 | <tomsmeding> | Gurkenglas: I was indeed :p |
| 21:09:58 | <tomsmeding> | funny how lambdabot seems to go one S too deep |
| 21:10:01 | <Gurkenglas> | should have been like "there's your counterexample! wait." before talking about it being wrong |
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| 21:11:55 | <monochrom> | If foo is non-strict, foo (unS x) is non-strict in x, too, yes. |
| 21:13:12 | <__minoru__shirae> | hololeap: what does unlift-stm library do? |
| 21:13:13 | <monochrom> | My favourite example is "const () (unS whatever)" and generally "const () (f $!!!!! x)" it doesn't matter how many seqs and pattern matchings you have in "f $!!!! x", const simply doesn't care. |
| 21:15:30 | <monochrom> | The subtle difference between "'seq x y' causes evaluation of x" and "evaluation of 'seq x y' causes evaluation of x". |
| 21:16:04 | <hololeap> | __minoru__shirae: eh, i was hoping the docs would explain that... :) |
| 21:16:22 | <hololeap> | do you know about MonadIO? |
| 21:16:27 | <epst3in> | > (repeat "i love jess ") |
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| 21:16:30 | <lambdabot> | ["i love jess ","i love jess ","i love jess ","i love jess ","i love jess ",... |
| 21:17:07 | <hpc> | yeah, a good mental model is that evaluation is always caused by something |
| 21:17:10 | <hpc> | (such as execution) |
| 21:17:16 | <hpc> | also, execution is always caused by something |
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| 21:17:42 | <dolio> | Should have used `cycle`. |
| 21:18:03 | <int-e> | monochrom: As Archimedes said, let me define a thunk that's is evaluated and I'll move the whole world. |
| 21:18:11 | <monochrom> | hpc: I wonder if the docs of unliftio-core explains better what unliftio is about. Then unlift-stm is just an instance of that. |
| 21:18:22 | <monochrom> | haha int-e. |
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| 21:18:27 | <{abby}> | what's recommended for compiling haskell to javascript these days? |
| 21:18:40 | <monochrom> | oops hpc sorry, wrong person |
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| 21:18:56 | <monochrom> | hololeap: I wonder if the docs of unliftio-core explains better what unliftio is about. Then unlift-stm is just an instance of that. |
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| 21:19:17 | <dolio> | {abby}: The only option is GHCJS if you literally mean Haskell, I think. |
| 21:19:28 | <hololeap> | __minoru__shirae: basically, it's a convenience library when working with the STM monad. so you can use the same functions for STM or (WriterT String STM) or (ReaderT Env (ExceptT String STM)), etc |
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| 21:19:44 | <hololeap> | {abby}: i recommend elm or purescript |
| 21:19:56 | <hololeap> | which aren't haskell, but similar |
| 21:20:03 | <hololeap> | (especially purescript) |
| 21:20:08 | <__minoru__shirae> | hololeap: something like a MonadBase instance for Stm? |
| 21:20:10 | <dolio> | Yeah, PureScript is pretty close. |
| 21:20:18 | <{abby}> | there is no way i'm rewriting all this code |
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| 21:20:34 | <{abby}> | has there really been nothing better than ghcjs? that's 13 months out of date |
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| 21:21:09 | <hololeap> | {abby}: purescript won't be far off. it's very very similar to haskell |
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| 21:21:24 | <hololeap> | __minoru__shirae: it's closest to MonadIO for the IO monad |
| 21:21:29 | <maerwald> | do ppl even consider maturity and ecosystem when suggesting languages? :p |
| 21:21:35 | <{abby}> | hololeap: that's still rewriting ~3000 lines of code in a strict language |
| 21:22:20 | <monochrom> | I think suggesting elm or purescript is precisely on consideration of ecosystem maturity. |
| 21:22:32 | <maerwald> | monochrom: they are very different |
| 21:22:34 | <monochrom> | I mean in the context of "compiles to javascript". |
| 21:23:05 | <monochrom> | GHCJS is the ecosystemly immature one here. |
| 21:23:23 | <maerwald> | I think of all of those I'd only call elm mature |
| 21:23:32 | <monochrom> | or was mature, now bitrotten. |
| 21:24:06 | <maerwald> | isn't obelisk using ghcjs? |
| 21:24:18 | <monochrom> | "postmaturity" >:) |
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| 21:25:47 | <dolio> | If you mean exactly Haskell, then there is not just nothing better. There is nothing else (unless I'm misinformed). |
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| 21:26:11 | <{abby}> | epic |
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| 21:26:38 | <hololeap> | {abby}: what made you think otherwise? |
| 21:26:56 | <dolio> | Oh, actually, that's not techincally true. UHC can output JavaScript, I guess. |
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| 21:30:04 | <Gurkenglas> | @let evalM :: Monad m => LensLike' m VeryLazyNaturals Int; evalM f x = do i <- f 0; foldr (.) id (replicate i S) <$> (\(S x) -> evalM (fmap (subtract i) . f . (+1)) x) x -- this is sure to come in handy |
| 21:30:08 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
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| 21:40:18 | <hololeap> | monochrom: honestly, i've been wondering if MonadIO and MonadSTM could be abstracted further into something that works on a transformer stack over any base monad |
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| 21:41:23 | <hololeap> | because unlift-stm is so damn similar to MonadIO and MonadUnliftIO |
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| 21:46:54 | <monochrom> | I would think that things like MonadTrans, MonadReader, MonadState are doing that. |
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| 21:49:28 | <hololeap> | something that says, "this action works on the base monad of the stack" |
| 21:49:51 | <hololeap> | because those are not quite the same |
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| 21:50:34 | <Gurkenglas> | @let evalA :: Traversal' VeryLazyNaturals Int; evalA f x = foldr (.) id <$> (flip replicate S <$> f 0) <*> let !(S y) = x in evalA (f . (+1)) y -- in fact, this. although now the monotonic function g must come in the format "f x = g x - g (x-1)" |
| 21:50:36 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
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| 21:50:53 | <Gurkenglas> | > five ^.. evalA |
| 21:50:55 | <lambdabot> | [0,1,2,3,4,5*Exception: Prelude.undefined |
| 21:51:25 | <Gurkenglas> | (for every number, confirm whether you're at least that.) |
| 21:51:33 | <Gurkenglas> | -whether+that |
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| 21:53:59 | <Gurkenglas> | > evalA %~ (\g x -> g x - if x == 0 then 0 else g (x-1)) (*2) $ five |
| 21:54:01 | <lambdabot> | S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S *Exception: Prelude.undefined |
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| 21:55:42 | <hpc> | where did that undefined come from? |
| 21:55:49 | <Gurkenglas> | > five |
| 21:55:51 | <lambdabot> | S (S (S (S (S *Exception: Prelude.undefined |
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| 21:56:27 | <__minoru__shirae> | hololeap: "something that says, "this action works on the base monad of the stack"" |
| 21:56:36 | <__minoru__shirae> | like MonadBase? |
| 21:56:37 | <Gurkenglas> | what i should be doing is putting fix id in place of every undefined, but this is less rude i suppose |
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| 21:59:17 | <Gurkenglas> | (also i should have said "from the prelude") |
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| 22:01:17 | <hololeap> | __minoru__shirae: yeah, like that :) now i feel like an idiot for not knowing about it |
| 22:02:26 | <hololeap> | maybe i should re-write my library around that |
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| 22:05:03 | <hololeap> | although, would that require (liftBase . liftBase . liftBase ...) for deep monad transformer stacks? |
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| 22:05:16 | <monochrom> | No. |
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| 22:06:08 | <hololeap> | right |
| 22:06:17 | <monochrom> | Provided: Suppose you have "XT (YT (ZT B))", you need one propagator instance for XT, one for YT, one for ZT. |
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| 22:06:22 | <hololeap> | well, then yeah that is the wheel i was reinventing |
| 22:06:34 | <hololeap> | sort of.. |
| 22:07:44 | <monochrom> | And a base-case "instance MonadBase B B". |
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| 22:11:59 | <Gurkenglas> | > five ^.. gplate -- appears to be doing more lookahead than lazily necessary |
| 22:12:01 | <lambdabot> | [S (S (S (S *Exception: Prelude.undefined |
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| 22:14:40 | <Gurkenglas> | no wait i just misunderstood what plated is supposed to do, this is correct |
| 22:15:00 | <koz_> | > maxBound :: Int |
| 22:15:02 | <lambdabot> | 9223372036854775807 |
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| 22:18:33 | <Gurkenglas> | > five ^.. cosmos . united -- uh oh, probably the unS thing again |
| 22:18:36 | <lambdabot> | [(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),... |
| 22:19:55 | <koz_> | Gurkenglas: Five Cosmos United sounds like a JRPG limit break. |
| 22:20:09 | <koz_> | (also, what's the plural of 'cosmos'?) |
| 22:20:23 | <Gurkenglas> | > five ^.. cosmos . foldr (.) id (replicate 10 plate) . united -- damn u lazy |
| 22:20:26 | <lambdabot> | [(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),... |
| 22:20:38 | <koz_> | > minBound :: Int |
| 22:20:40 | <lambdabot> | -9223372036854775808 |
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| 22:33:01 | <Gurkenglas> | i suppose i deserve getting burned by gplate being too lazy on VeryLazyNaturals :D |
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| 22:34:38 | <hpc> | it's right there in the name :D |
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| 22:36:02 | <hololeap> | so, MonadBase looks like a nice abstraction of MonadIO, etc |
| 22:36:13 | <hololeap> | what would be a good abstraction of MonadUnliftIO |
| 22:36:32 | <koz_> | hololeap: MonadBaseControl? |
| 22:36:45 | <koz_> | Like, MonadUnliftIO is just (over)-simplified MonadBaseControl. |
| 22:36:50 | <koz_> | Alexis King wrote a whole article on it. |
| 22:37:35 | <hololeap> | @hoogle MonadBaseControl |
| 22:37:36 | <lambdabot> | Control.Monad.Trans.Control class MonadBase b m => MonadBaseControl b m | m -> b |
| 22:37:36 | <lambdabot> | Control.Monad.Trans.Control.Aligned class MonadBase b m => MonadBaseControl b m stM | m -> b stM |
| 22:37:36 | <lambdabot> | Control.Monad.Trans.Unlift class MonadBase b m => MonadBaseControl (b :: * -> *) (m :: * -> *) | m -> b |
| 22:37:52 | <koz_> | hololeap: https://lexi-lambda.github.io/blog/2019/09/07/demystifying-monadbasecontrol/ |
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| 22:46:30 | <hololeap> | koz_: that looks interesting. i'm partway through it and it seems like it's doing something along the lines of: (m a -> m a) -> t m a -> t m a |
| 22:46:31 | <solidus-river> | is there a good example some where of using forkIO but trying to catch and recover from processes that die? |
| 22:46:54 | <hololeap> | but sometimes we need: (m a -> r) -> t m a -> r |
| 22:46:58 | <koz_> | solidus-river: Have you read Simon's book about parallelism and concurrency in Haskell? |
| 22:47:18 | <solidus-river> | koz_, now but i would with link :), also searching |
| 22:47:20 | <koz_> | hololeap: I _believe_ that's still possible with MonadBaseControl, but it's ahrder. |
| 22:47:52 | <koz_> | solidus-river: https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/parallel-and-concurrent/9781449335939/pt02.html |
| 22:47:58 | <koz_> | Read that entire part, start to finish. |
| 22:48:09 | <koz_> | It goes over this in quite pedantic detail. |
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| 22:50:24 | <solidus-river> | koz_, thanks! |
| 22:50:44 | <koz_> | solidus-river: No problem. |
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| 23:47:34 | <wickedjargon> | question for anyone: Do you think reading "The Little Schemer" will help with programming in Haskell? |
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| 23:50:49 | <Axman6> | I doubt it would hurt |
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All times are in UTC on 2021-03-15.