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Logs on 2021-03-18 (freenode/#haskell)

00:00:37 × justanotheruser quits (~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
00:00:56 <nshepperd> uh, mempty = mempty?
00:01:14 <monochrom> You don't need the assumptions (Semigroup a, Semigroup b) because <> for Or is supposed blindly always prefer the earliest Snd and then the latest Fst.
00:01:19 <Axman6> This is definitely correct
00:01:37 <nshepperd> this recursion seems unlikely to terminate
00:01:45 × frozenErebus quits (~frozenEre@94.128.230.170) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
00:01:54 <monochrom> And for this one, you need "mempty = Identity (mempty)".
00:02:03 → Nik05 joins (~Nik05@unaffiliated/nik05)
00:02:05 <Axman6> (<>) mempty (Identity x) = Identity x id definitely wrong
00:02:07 <bobweb> monochrom: OK, so i'll drop the constraints and try again.
00:02:10 <monochrom> Similarly for mappend. Exercise for the reader.
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00:03:03 <bobweb> monochrom: OK, I was confused about how to define mempty for Monoid (Identity a).
00:03:13 → justanotheruser joins (~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser)
00:03:40 <bobweb> mempty = Identity (mempty) is what I want?
00:03:45 <Axman6> since Identity only has one constructor, I can guarantee you that you will need mempty = Identity ???
00:04:34 <Axman6> but to use mempty = Identity mempty, you need more than a Semigroup constraint, because mempty doesn't come from Semigroup
00:05:35 <monochrom> You're trying to make "mempty :: Identity a".
00:05:36 <Axman6> bobweb: for your semigroup instance, (<>) mempty (Identity x) = Identity x is _exactly_ the same as writing (<>) literallyAnything (Identity x) = Identity x
00:05:41 <bobweb> Yeah, I'm pushing the limits of my mental gymnastic ability. LOL. I can't see the identity for (Identity a)!
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00:07:29 <Axman6> bobweb: so, big hint time, to define (<>) for Identity, you only need one equation, not three
00:08:42 <bobweb> Uh, (Identity x) <> (Identity x) == Identity x ?
00:08:44 <monochrom> You understand that "(<>) mempty (Identity x) = Identity x" just means "(<>) foo (Identity x) = Identity x", right? RIGHT?
00:08:57 <Axman6> bobweb: that type checks, but it's not very useful
00:09:30 <Axman6> we want to make use of the fact that a is also a Semigroup
00:09:31 <monochrom> You need to review "variable shadowing"
00:09:44 <monochrom> Actually...
00:10:01 <monochrom> > let {f (Just x) (Just x) = x} in ()
00:10:03 <lambdabot> error:
00:10:03 <lambdabot> • Conflicting definitions for ‘x’
00:10:03 <lambdabot> Bound at: <interactive>:1:14
00:10:28 → s00pcan joins (~chris@075-133-056-178.res.spectrum.com)
00:10:39 <Axman6> one feature I wish we had from Erlang
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00:11:33 <monochrom> In the case of this exercise, the error (as opposed to the feature) actually saves a lot of confusion.
00:11:56 <Axman6> > let f (Just x) = \(Just x) -> x in f (Just 1) (Just 2)
00:11:58 <lambdabot> 2
00:12:22 <Axman6> yeah (sorry, should do confusing things in PM instead of here)
00:12:28 → cheater1 joins (~user@unaffiliated/cheater)
00:12:32 <bobweb> OK, monoid = binary associative without identity; but we are not accessing the a in Identity a... oh wait, I am accessing a, but I thought I shouldn't be...
00:12:49 <Axman6> monoid has an identity, semigroup doesn't
00:13:23 <bobweb> yeah, sorry, backwards : has identity.
00:13:27 <monochrom> Why are you not doing "instance Monoid a => Monoid (Identity a)"?
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00:14:01 <bobweb> monochrom: cause the compiler told me too...
00:14:26 <bobweb> but yeah, maybe i should do monoid =>
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00:16:08 <Axman6> think about it a bit first - Identity wraps a single value of a given type. we know (because you've been told) that you can make an instance of Monoid for Identity. so first problem is mempoty, how do we make something of type Identity a? Well we use Identity, and some value of type a. how do we magic up a value of type a?
00:16:08 × emmanuel_erc quits (~user@2603-7000-9600-01c9-0000-0000-0000-0874.res6.spectrum.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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00:16:23 <Axman6> mempty*
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00:16:58 <bobweb> OK, works now! Thank you all! : https://paste.tomsmeding.com/78ZjwXlA
00:18:35 <Axman6> can you explain how it works?
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00:22:37 <bobweb> Not exactly. I get that the identity for type (Identity a) will be mempty defined as (Identity mempty). OK. But it's not clear to me why the binary function (<>) on (Identity x) (Identity y) should be (Identity (x <> y))... It seems like we are adding structure when identity is just supposed to kick back whatever gets put in.??
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00:24:05 <bobweb> I know I am missing some subtlety about how the compiler sees x <> y, but I can't quite grasp it...
00:24:41 <Axman6> I think you're attributing too much meaning to Identity
00:25:45 <Axman6> it is literally just a wrapper of other types, it is the trivial Monad, and in general all instances of classes will just use whatever isntance the wrapped type has. it's got nothing to do with identity functions really
00:25:57 <monochrom> That's possible. "mempty is the identity element of the monoid" has a name clash with this "newtype Identity a" type.
00:26:11 <monochrom> name clash. Nothing more. No relation.
00:26:19 <Axman6> Eq for Identity will look like: instance Eq a => Eq (Identity a) where (==) (Identity x) (Identity y) == x == y
00:26:49 <Axman6> uh, (==) (Identity x) (Identity y) = x == y
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00:32:38 <bobweb> Yes. Name clash. I think I'm beginning to see... it's not that an identity is resulting from (Identity x) <> (Identity y), it is simply that the data constructor name is leading me to think so. OK, I think I'll be OK now, after I meditate on this a bit more. Thank you all!
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00:37:48 <monochrom> The road to hell is paved with well-intended meaningful names.
00:38:58 <Axman6> newtype Trivial a = Trivial a?
00:39:18 <Axman6> just to make you feel even more dumb when you find something isn't trivial
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00:40:07 <monochrom> I'm thinking along the line of "newtype VeryPhilosophicallyProfoundWrapper a = VPPW a" to drive home the irony.
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00:40:39 <Axman6> "Woah, everything is just waves man, it's like science or something"
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00:41:02 <monochrom> and to drive general disgust and distrust in meaningful names.
00:41:30 <Axman6> newtype Z a = Z a
00:42:19 <Axman6> pi = join @Z; pi :: Z (Z a) -> Z a -- pizza -> 'za
00:43:35 <monochrom> tauzza = 2*pizza > pizza
00:43:52 <sshine_> "trivial" and "just" are smart-ass words.
00:44:12 <spidr> > let pi = join @Z; pi :: Z (Z a) -> Z a -- pizza -> 'za
00:44:14 <lambdabot> error:
00:44:15 <lambdabot> Pattern syntax in expression context: join@Z
00:44:15 <lambdabot> Did you mean to enable TypeApplications?
00:44:37 <monochrom> by extension "nothing" is also a smart-ass word.
00:44:50 <monochrom> Therefore, "data Maybe a = Nothing | Just a" is a smart-ass type.
00:45:18 <spidr> I don't understand just
00:46:12 × dsrt^ quits (~hph@ip98-184-89-2.mc.at.cox.net) ()
00:46:16 <Axman6> Maybe a is either nothing or just an a
00:46:46 <spidr> but what does just do under the hood, why is it not Mayba a = Nothing | a
00:46:49 <monochrom> Have you also heard of the unJust function? :)
00:47:01 <spidr> n-no i'm still reading the haskell book
00:47:01 <monochrom> Syntax error is why.
00:47:13 <monochrom> You always need data constructors.
00:47:13 <Axman6> because that's not valid haskell
00:47:17 <spidr> ah
00:47:28 <Axman6> this isn't typescript
00:47:54 <monochrom> Think of data constructors as reminding the computer both which type you're making and which case you're talking about.
00:47:55 <sshine_> spidr, if you don't have a data constructor to differentiate a 'Maybe a' value from an 'a' value, then they are aliases. but they can't be aliases if one has a value 'Nothing' in addition.
00:48:07 <monochrom> Even when it's trivial to me.
00:48:12 <monochrom> err, s/me/you/
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00:48:35 <spidr> maybe I shouldn't dig so low
00:48:49 <spidr> I was trying to find the source of just
00:49:03 <monochrom> This is why type inference works. Your data constructor tells the computer about types. You are not saving any typing, afterall.
00:49:18 × hololeap quits (~hololeap@unaffiliated/hololeap) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
00:49:22 <sshine_> spidr, https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.1.0/docs/src/GHC.Maybe.html#Maybe
00:49:30 <Axman6> something of type MAybe (Maybe ()) should have three valid patterns, Nothing, Just Nothing and Just (Just ()). if we allowed Nothing | a, which of those patterns does Nothing represent? Nothng or Just Nothing?
00:50:05 <monochrom> "data Maybe a = Nothing | Just a" is already the source of Just. And Nothing. And Maybe.
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00:50:15 <spidr> thanks for the link sshine_
00:50:29 <Axman6> @src Maybe
00:50:30 <lambdabot> data Maybe a = Nothing | Just a
00:50:30 <sshine_> spidr, so that data declaration *is* the source of Just.
00:50:33 <spidr> this has the source of maybe but not just, although the comment explains it
00:50:44 <spidr> ah
00:51:02 <sshine_> spidr, Just is a value/pattern constructor for the type Maybe a.
00:51:24 <Axman6> that declaration defined Maybe as a type with two constructors, one callen Nothing, one called Just.
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00:51:34 <spidr> I see
00:51:35 <Axman6> called*
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00:51:43 <spidr> so it's not a thing outside of maybe?
00:51:53 hackage wai-middleware-auth 0.2.4.1 - Authentication middleware that secures WAI application https://hackage.haskell.org/package/wai-middleware-auth-0.2.4.1 (lehins)
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00:52:05 <sshine_> spidr, yeah so maybe it'd be nicer if everything that got defined was at some point on the left-hand side of an '=', but the data declaration creates a bunch of things, including Just.
00:52:08 <monochrom> You need to open to the possibility that one single line of code declares a dozen things at once.
00:52:16 <Axman6> data MyType a b = AnA a | AB b BothAAndB a b -- defines three constructors
00:52:53 <Axman6> some people find the GADT syntax a little simpler to understand
00:52:54 <spidr> yea I'm only up to chapter 7 I should just keep reading
00:52:58 <Axman6> data Maybe a where
00:53:07 <monochrom> (f, g, h) = ((\x -> x + 1), (\y -> sqrt y - sqrt 2), sin . cos) is one single line that declares and defines 3 functions f, g, h.
00:53:09 <Axman6> Nothing :: Maybe a
00:53:15 <Axman6> Just :: a -> Maybe a
00:53:25 <Axman6> (indentation is hard)
00:53:29 <sshine_> spidr, when you also have 'deriving (Eq, Ord)' at the end, the declaration even auto-generates '==', '<=', etc. operators with some expectably meaningful definitions...
00:53:45 <monochrom> "foo, bar, quuz :: Int -> Int" is also possible when it comes to writing types.
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00:54:10 <spidr> Axman6: that way of writing it made more sense
00:54:12 <spidr> thanks a bunch
00:54:14 <sshine_> spidr, e.g. even though we don't know what 'a' is, we get 'Eq a => Eq (Maybe a)' for free when 'deriving Eq' is present. so say you have a Maybe Int, then because Int is an instance of Eq, so is Maybe Int once 'deriving Eq' is enabled for this data declaration.
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00:55:16 <sshine_> spidr, the data declaration also lets you do pattern matching using Just/Nothing, so they're not just value constructors at this point.
00:56:00 <Axman6> the default ADT syntax in Haskell can be quite confusing because it mixes together value level and type level things
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01:15:27 <cheater> it takes some learning
01:15:47 <cheater> but i've come to love it over any other syntax for defining sum and product types
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01:20:44 <spidr> sorry had some work come up, but thanks I'll keep reading
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01:36:23 hackage ory-kratos 0.0.5.8 - API bindings for Ory Kratos https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ory-kratos-0.0.5.8 (njaremko)
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02:00:22 <erayo> what's a good way to get a UTCTime (from the time package) from a timestamp with millisecond precision ? I'd like to keep that precision
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02:04:20 <erayo> oops, nvm
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02:09:51 <Shiranai> Helloes, silly question, what are the `Common...` libraries here? https://github.com/hatashiro/monkey-hs/blob/master/lib/Lexer/Types.hs
02:10:25 <Shiranai> can't find them on hackage and doesn't seem to be part of the haskell platform either
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02:14:57 <Axman6> https://github.com/hatashiro/monkey-hs/tree/master/lib/Common
02:15:35 <Axman6> first place to look for moduels you don't recognise in a project is within the project itself
02:15:43 <Axman6> modules*
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02:17:01 <Shiranai> god I'm so stupid thank you
02:18:16 <Axman6> We've all got to learn everything the first time
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02:23:19 <emmanuel_erc> have you ever run into something like this before? (http://ix.io/2Tgk)
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03:09:53 hackage zeolite-lang 0.13.0.0 - Zeolite is a statically-typed, general-purpose programming language. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/zeolite-lang-0.13.0.0 (ta0kira)
03:10:33 <slack1256> Is there a cli-app to pass a stack package.yaml to a cabal file?
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03:14:17 <koz_> slack1256: If you mean 'generate a cabal file from package.yaml', yes, it's called 'hpack'.
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03:17:26 <Shiranai> Hello again, any tips on the structure of a lexer? I wanna try writing one myself, really simple for a specific use case. Reading some implementations (in other languages) they use some struct to keep track of what line and character they are at and just pattern match. Was wondering if there was some neat way with more idiomatic haskell without
03:17:26 <Shiranai> having to interact a ton with some state monad
03:18:55 <slack1256> koz_: Another layer of problems ;_;
03:19:25 <koz_> Shiranai: Just use megaparsec? It has a lexer thing.
03:19:36 <koz_> slack1256: Yeah, I am not an hpack fan.
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03:20:53 <Shiranai> koz_: I wanted to try to write a compiler from scratch so megaparsec is illegal in my game
03:21:07 <koz_> I don't see how those two statements connect.
03:21:09 <slack1256> Shiranai: Maybe not related to your use case, but when using parser combinators I usually schew the tokenize/parse distinction and do it all in one go.
03:21:30 <koz_> Writing a compiler from scratch does not preclude the use of parser combinator libraries.
03:22:30 <Shiranai> the idea of that is for me to get a more "bare metal" intuition of how it works, yeah I know it would be pretty silly to not use external libraries but this is for purely educational purposes
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03:23:23 <koz_> In that case, enjoy your state monad and regexps. :P
03:23:35 <koz_> (and that's before we even get to parsing)
03:24:35 <Shiranai> haha thanks
03:24:54 <Shiranai> was looking for alternatives to the state monad but I'll just use that I guess
03:24:54 <Cale> Shiranai: Everything that would be state, you could just pass as arguments to your function.
03:26:44 <Shiranai> Cale: I thought about that approach for a bit, the lexer would have to be a recursive function in that case. Everytime calling itself with its current line, current char, current token, the list of token and the rest of the text to parse (at a minimum)
03:26:50 <Cale> Shiranai: and then instead of updating the state, you call another function with modified arguments (or maybe the same function)
03:27:40 <slack1256> There are inneficient implementations of parser combinators that are just the state monad :-P , you could make the full jump lol.
03:28:05 <Cale> You wouldn't necessarily have to have the list of tokens as an argument, unless you have need of going back and modifying tokens you've already read
03:28:21 <Cale> Instead, you could just emit the list as you go
03:30:05 slack1256 discovered he has been misusing other-modules his whole life.
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03:38:51 <lemmih> How do you misuse other-modules?
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03:41:46 <slack1256> Now I think there are mostly for data-dir/data-file related code, such as the Paths_library autogenerated module.
03:42:23 <slack1256> If you don't export the module via exposed-modules, you cannot test them on the test-suite. Plus they don't get included in the haddock documentation.
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03:55:54 <Shiranai> Cale: could you please elaborate on how the list of tokens is not necessary as an argument?
03:56:27 <Shiranai> if it is a list, after processing the nth token, shouldn't I have the base list to append it to it?
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04:01:15 <specdrake> Hello
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04:01:30 <Axman6> Hello!
04:01:54 <specdrake> Why is the haskell-gsoc irc chat so inactive?
04:02:18 <specdrake> Is there some other primary means of communication?
04:02:35 <specdrake> (Apart from mailing list and IRC)
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04:03:19 <Axman6> Those are good questions that I have no answer for
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04:03:43 <specdrake> Oh okay
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04:05:32 <Cale> Shiranai: foo input blah blah = TokenToEmit : foo depletedInput other stuff
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04:05:59 <Cale> Shiranai: You just produce the list elements immediately as you determine them
04:06:27 <Cale> Shiranai: It's also much more efficient, since you don't have to accumulate the list of tokens in reverse and then reverse it at the end
04:06:47 <Cale> (or what would be horrible for performance, continually append to the end of the list)
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04:07:33 <Cale> Shiranai: Does that make sense?
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04:44:55 <Shiranai> Cale: Sorry for the late response, I am not understanding. Could you please show some example code? I.e. let's say that the `nextToken` function successfully gets the next token, how would you use that to "produce the list elements immediately"?
04:45:31 <Shiranai> Up till now I thought that accumulating in reverse would be the most efficient
04:54:23 hackage ory-kratos 0.0.5.9 - API bindings for Ory Kratos https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ory-kratos-0.0.5.9 (njaremko)
04:57:26 <Cale> Shiranai: nextToken "" = []; nextToken input = t : nextToken input' where (t, input') = splitFirstToken input
04:58:17 <Shiranai> ohhhhhhhhhhhhh
04:58:18 <Cale> This is more efficient than accumulating across the entire input before being able to return any part of the result
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04:58:31 <Cale> You can get the first token with only a single splitFirstToken
04:58:53 <Shiranai> I see, thank you, I just got back into haskell and forgot some techniques, really nice
04:58:58 <Cale> Well, calling this nextToken was wrong, I should have called it tokens :)
04:59:01 <shad0w_> cale: not if its a NFT : p
04:59:38 <Shiranai> Thanks again, see you later, have a good day/night
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04:59:51 <Cale> shad0w_: NFT's are like getting a blue ribbon for participation at summer camp and then thinking that it's worth 68 million dollars
05:00:55 <shad0w_> Cale: what's sad is that statement can't be ruled out as a possible scenario. sigh.
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05:17:17 <DigitalKiwi> or worse: someone else getting a blue ribbon and you thinking it's worth that
05:18:24 <DigitalKiwi> ...a picture of it lol
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05:21:11 <DigitalKiwi> https://mashable.com/article/nft-cryptocurrency-bad-environment-art/ was the first thing i read about them a few days ago lol
05:21:46 <Axman6> proof of work is the real evil, it's very anti-lazy
05:22:15 <DigitalKiwi> that's why i'm a commie
05:23:20 <Axman6> this is one of the reasons I don't get all the hate for Cardano, there are still problems with it, but at least it's not trying to boil the oceans as fast as possible
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05:25:35 <Cale> Distributed databases are just not the solution to very many real-world problems
05:27:00 <Cale> If you sort out the stuff that would be necessary to connect your database to the real world, the socio-political part of any given problem, then usually a centralised database almost immediately suffices, because in so doing you needed to give people some kind of authority, and those people might as well run the database.
05:27:45 <Axman6> working on DAML has made me rethink that idea
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05:28:28 <Cale> After all, the people who are responsible for enforcing things in the real world are going to be able to act as though the contents of the database are different from what they really are, so that administration might as well have the authority to edit anything as it sees fit.
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05:29:42 <Cale> (Obviously, not every member of it should be abusing that power all the time, but overall, it's often going to be necessary that the organisation itself agree that the contents of the database are in fact incorrect or invalid.)
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05:31:55 <DigitalKiwi> https://mostlyabsurd.com/files/stonks!.png s/stonks/crypto/
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05:34:25 <DigitalKiwi> or even better: stonks that track crypto trends :)
05:34:50 <slack1256> I am this close of work on NFT company ;_; .
05:35:01 <slack1256> working*
05:35:32 <DigitalKiwi> MARA went up 12.57% yesterday lol
05:35:56 <DigitalKiwi> RIOT 13.62%
05:36:33 <DigitalKiwi> CAN 11.57%
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05:46:24 <Axman6> Cale: at ${CURRENT_JOB-2}, we were working on a system for managing and tracing events in supply chains, which obviously requires the interaction of many parties, with parties having a desire to maintain ownership of their data. If I'd known about DAML at the time we could have modelled basically all the requirements we had "trivially", including providing visibility to trusted third parties to observe events throughout the supplychain. I'll
05:46:24 <Axman6> admit it is probably one of the few places hwere this really could be useful, but they do exist
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05:50:10 <Cale> How is DAML fundamentally any better than each of those parties running postgres databases (perhaps with a similar API), given that it's possible to do authenticated communication with them via the Internet?
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05:50:22 <DigitalKiwi> one of my dad's (long time ago former) clients started one of those a few years ago i think
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05:51:14 <Axman6> because that's exactly what it gives you, but visibility of information is a core concept in the language, so you have to eplicitly expose information to other parties, rather than working to hide it
05:51:47 <Axman6> (One of the DAML backends it literally just Postgres, no blockchain)
05:51:56 <Cale> Well, that's fair
05:52:07 <Cale> The thing I think is useless here is blockchains
05:52:09 <Axman6> ((I also can't claim to be an expert on DAML, I just write it ))
05:54:37 <DigitalKiwi> whatcha got against merkle trees
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05:56:39 <Axman6> yeah DAML is the contract language, which has several backends (and using DAML Connect [I think, its name changed], you can use DAML to write contracts which exist on and are executed on different blockchains)
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05:58:57 <Axman6> uh, Canton is what I meant
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06:02:36 <Cale> DigitalKiwi: Well, it's not so much Merkle trees themselves, but the notion of having a distributed database with non-cooperative or adversarial writers that I think is bad, and once people are cooperating, you can centralise a database and make it way more efficient.
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06:12:17 <Axman6> https://daml.com/learn/fundamental-concepts (IIRC) does a good job of explaining the authorisation model for the language, you need to be quite explicit about what actions any given party can do, and which parties need to be involved/give consent
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06:12:57 Axman6 wishes he had flip in the shell
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06:13:35 <CodeKiwi> Axman6: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/flip-cmd
06:13:38 <Cale> Yeah, *that* kind of thing I think is fine. I just don't see why a blockchain or distributed storage (apart perhaps from replication) needs to be any part of it in almost all cases.
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06:15:34 <CodeKiwi> Cale: all you have is a hammer...
06:15:41 <CodeKiwi> Cale: when* all you have is a hammer...
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06:16:28 <Axman6> CodeKiwi: Hmm, what I really want is flip (||) (print "\a") $ somethingWhichMightFail # things in comments are iportant for my shell history
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06:17:19 <Axman6> CodeKiwi: for a sec I thought you'd linked to https://github.com/mxswd/flip-plus, which is... amazing
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06:19:48 <Axman6> the fact that github won't render the only haskell file in that repo should give you some idea of how awesome it is
06:19:57 <Cale> hahaha
06:20:12 <Cale> How long does ghc take to compile the module?
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06:20:26 <Axman6> I don't know... I've never been game to try
06:20:32 <Cale> Seems like potentially a good performance benchmark
06:20:49 <Axman6> indeed
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06:21:37 <Axman6> also, take that Control.Lens.Operators
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06:22:04 <Cale> It's certainly taking its sweet time with it
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06:22:23 <Cale> about 1 minute
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06:23:02 <Cale> That's about 834 lines per second
06:23:05 <slack1256> It is not even on ACME.* .
06:23:26 <Axman6> this is serious shit slack1256, no time for jokes here
06:23:50 <Cale> You mean it's serious $#!&
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06:24:18 <slack1256> Hahaha, hey ACME is seriously, just dangerous.
06:24:22 <Axman6> still waiting for GHCi to interpret it...
06:24:33 <slack1256> Imagine putting a # where a & was expected#
06:24:37 <slack1256> !
06:24:49 <Axman6> oh the irony, haha
06:24:54 <Axman6> Ok, one module loaded.
06:24:55 <Axman6> (117.81 secs,)
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06:29:08 <Axman6> cabal v2-build 159.18s user 6.70s system 96% cpu 2:52.55 total
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06:42:49 <famubu> I created a function to check if a character is a white space (space/newline/tab). Is there any advantage of using pattern matching over guards? This is what I tried: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/BOTlXmO8
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06:44:35 <slack1256> At least for Char/Int where equality is really simple, both are equivalent.
06:44:52 <slack1256> Also, you can pattern match on guard too.
06:45:08 <famubu> slack1256: So there is a difference when equality is more complex?
06:45:38 <famubu> I wasn't sure if 'pattern matching' and 'guards' were the right terms there.. :-D
06:46:03 <slack1256> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/VlmXB1n0
06:46:58 <CodeKiwi> i've been finding a lot of libraries that don't compile anymore they say ambiguous occurrence what's that about
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06:47:16 <slack1256> famubu: Yeah, it mostly depends on how "deep" is the ADT. Think list, where equality is element per element but case analisis is about whether it is a cons or the empty case.
06:47:44 <slack1256> Char and Int are really flat, so the equality and case analysis are the same.
06:48:16 <slack1256> CodeKiwi: GHC 9.0.1?
06:48:25 <CodeKiwi> 8.10.4
06:48:31 <famubu> slack1256: Ah.. I got a better idea now. Thanks a lot!
06:48:35 <c_wraith> ... your point is right, but the example isn't *quite* right. Char and Int have one level of nesting.
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06:49:04 <slack1256> c_wraith: yeah, but that distinction at this level will only confuse it more.
06:49:17 <c_wraith> Bool is a good example!
06:49:58 <slack1256> "deep" and "flat" are loosly defined ("a lo amigo/modulo buena voluntad" how we said here)
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06:50:34 <c_wraith> "among friends", maybe?
06:51:00 <slack1256> Ya eres cuate c_wraith :-)
06:52:33 <slack1256> CodeKiwi: Which library for example?
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06:55:47 <CodeKiwi> hquantlib-time
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06:57:10 <hugo> Is there a find equivalent for lenses? So if I have a list of Either a, I want to focus (is this the right word?) on the first Right value.
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06:58:51 <CodeKiwi> https://github.com/Lucsanszky/haskell-binance too
07:02:03 <slack1256> I don't know about "ambiguous occurrences", but hquantlib-time fails to build on my machine for the upper bound on time 1.9.0.0, which is old...
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07:02:32 <CodeKiwi> https://dpaste.com/HQ8DEXPRT
07:03:08 <CodeKiwi> that was with 884 but i think it's the same as the one in 8104
07:04:57 <slack1256> Fellow nix user :-)
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07:08:09 <slack1256> CodeKiwi: Can you run inside the nix-shell the command `ghc-pkg field time version`?
07:08:24 <slack1256> I think I know what it is.
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07:10:04 <CodeKiwi> 1.9.3
07:11:56 <slack1256> Check these two modules
07:12:03 <slack1256> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/time-1.8.0.2/docs/Data-Time-Calendar.html
07:12:19 <slack1256> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/time-1.9.3/docs/Data-Time-Calendar.html
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07:13:51 <slack1256> There is a `DayOfWeek` on the time-1.9.3 version which is not present on the 1.8.0.2 one. That gets re-exported on `Data.Time` and clashes with a constructor on hquantlib-time. When that last library was written, time was like the 1.8 version and didn't export that module.
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07:14:23 <slack1256> The problem only manifest in nixos because it tries to allow newer versions of libraries when you are inside a `nix-shell`.
07:14:38 <CodeKiwi> more people need to min max imports :(
07:14:41 <slack1256> Basically, it has nothing to do with ghc per se, but the version inside the nix-shell.
07:15:15 <slack1256> CodeKiwi: wouldn't have helped, the version of `time` you get in your nix-shell depends on your version of nixpkgs.
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07:16:27 <slack1256> If you run it outside a nix-shell via a `cabal v2-build` it will build with the right constrains.
07:16:41 <jackdk> `newtype Foo p f a b = Foo p a (f b); instance (Functor f, Profunctor p) => Profunctor (Foo p f)` <- what is this actually called?
07:16:59 <slack1256> Anyways, those packages are old. Maybe you could drop the upper-bounds, and make them use the current time API?
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07:17:16 <slack1256> Foo ?
07:18:22 <jackdk> slack1256: sure, but is there a common name for it in the libraries? Looks like `Biff p Identity f` but wondering if there's something better?
07:21:07 <CodeKiwi> slack1256: but outside of a nix shell i don't have zlib :(
07:21:32 <CodeKiwi> [nix-shell:~/projects/github.com/paulrzcz/hquantlib/hquantlib-time-0.0.4.1]$ ghc-pkg field time version
07:21:32 <CodeKiwi> version: 1.8.0.2
07:21:38 <CodeKiwi> hahahaha :D
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07:22:11 <slack1256> There it ought to work!
07:22:16 <CodeKiwi> previously: kiwi@mvp-nixos hquantlib-time-0.0.4.1 [master]$ nix-shell -p "haskellPackages.ghcWithPackages (pkgs: with pkgs; [])" -I nixpkgs=channel:nixos-20.03
07:23:03 <slack1256> You can also omit the `time` requeriment on the shell.nix file, and let cabal download and build the correct version.
07:23:09 <CodeKiwi> anyway but what do i do if i want to use these libraries in my projects :(
07:23:52 <slack1256> Fixing those libraries is mechanical, is only hiding or making the import lists explicit.
07:24:25 <slack1256> An alternative is to only specify special libraries in the shell.nix file and let cabal inside the shell fill the holes.
07:25:28 <CodeKiwi> i do a little of both https://gist.github.com/Kiwi/ffc08bffb15798dc4b1ec2a1c47c6191#file-program-cabal-hs
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07:26:05 <slack1256> (I got the same problem with a LTS 16.19 requeriment ;_; )
07:26:28 <slack1256> Yoo another turtle user :-)
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07:26:57 <slack1256> yeah, but I have always found the nix-shell shebangs to be slow
07:27:39 <CodeKiwi> (that gist is kind of a "because i can" experiment that i don't usually use lol)
07:28:17 <slack1256> Anyways, I will go to sleep.
07:28:20 <slack1256> Good luck.
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07:28:58 <CodeKiwi> what i really use is this https://dpaste.com/5RBZC5ALQ
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07:31:45 <CodeKiwi> clearly the next feature is to select the ghc compiler and nixpkgs version
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07:56:21 <dhruvasagar> I have a function `f :: (String -> Maybe String)` and I have a `a :: (Maybe String)`, if I do a <$> f, I end up with `Maybe (Maybe String)`, how can I avoid the nesting of maybe ?
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07:57:16 <dminuoso> Use =<< instead of <$>
07:57:24 <dminuoso> Or do-notation
07:57:41 <dminuoso> Or, you can also use <=< / >=>
07:57:45 <dhruvasagar> dminuoso: but how do I return a Maybe String from the do ?
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07:58:18 <SIben> dhruvasagar: "return x" with x a string
07:58:38 <dhruvasagar> SIben: yes that is logical :D, I am getting confused though
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07:58:56 <dhruvasagar> dminuoso: i'll look at `<=<` and `>=>` as well, thanks
07:59:53 <SIben> btw dhruvasagar, "<$>" should be used with your function on the left hand side :)
08:00:00 <SIben> (not that this matters here since it is not well typed anyway)
08:00:12 <dminuoso> dhruvasagar: All three options are equivalent. I tend to favor =<< when applicable.
08:00:19 <dminuoso> Though do-notation for Maybe can be handy in some cases.
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08:01:34 <dhruvasagar> maybe my reduction isn't very practical, would you guys be willing to look at my horrible code ?
08:02:50 <SIben> Sure :)
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08:03:49 <dhruvasagar> https://gist.github.com/dhruvasagar/fcda1bd59d96e5320e2ca936e0da39c8
08:04:22 <dhruvasagar> SIben: dminuoso it may be bit hard to follow, or not, but the main thing I am struggling with is the manyByIndent
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08:05:54 <dhruvasagar> I am doing this as a learning exercise, I don't want to use Parsec at this point
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08:06:25 <dhruvasagar> A lot of code here is borrowed from the json parser build by tsoding
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08:09:09 <dhruvasagar> SIben: sorry if it's unreadable
08:09:30 <dhruvasagar> looks like I found a solution, perhaps you can help refactor it ?
08:10:53 <SIben> dhruvasagar: sorry, I have a meeting in 5 min and it is a bit long :)
08:11:05 <dhruvasagar> SIben: that's cool, thanks for trying
08:12:04 <SIben> Let me know what you come up with, I can try to help again when I am free :)
08:12:48 <dhruvasagar> SIben: manyByIndent p =
08:12:50 <dhruvasagar> Parser $ \input -> do
08:12:51 <dhruvasagar> (_, indent) <- runParser ws input
08:12:54 <dhruvasagar> (rem, a) <- runParser (many (stringP indent *> p <* charP '\n')) input
08:12:56 <dhruvasagar> Just (rem, a)
08:13:08 <dhruvasagar> SIben: that's what I came up with, it seems to do what I intended, still have to figure out how to use this
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08:40:51 <CodeKiwi> 07:15 slack1256: CodeKiwi: wouldn't have helped, the version of `time` you get in your nix-shell depends on your version of nixpkgs.
08:42:08 <CodeKiwi> https://mostlyabsurd.com/posts/2019/06/03/minimal-imports-maximal-imports/ https://mostlyabsurd.com/posts/2019/06/03/minimal-imports-maximal-imports/ is supposed to avoid the problems of a library adding something later that you used
08:42:27 <CodeKiwi> oh they're not here :(
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08:43:29 <CodeKiwi> https://mostlyabsurd.com/posts/2019/06/09/minimal-imports-maximal-imports-examples/ was supposed to be the other url...
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10:57:23 <bahamas> can you chain as many transformers as you want in a transformer stack?
10:58:09 <dminuoso> Yes.
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11:02:05 <joel135> looking at https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.1.0/docs/Foreign-C-String.html
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11:02:23 <joel135> peekCString -> IO String fail? if so, how to catch it?
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11:08:41 <dminuoso> What do you mean by "fail" exactly?
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11:17:06 <joel135> i don't know exactly
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11:18:05 <joel135> it is just a curiosity question
11:18:51 <joel135> maybe seeing that type made me think that it might fail, since anything could happen in IO, but not sure
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11:28:47 <Lycurgus> yes joel135 , I can confirm that anything can happen in IO.
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11:29:01 <joel135> :-)
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11:30:01 <joel135> i guess i should come back if i have the same question in a more realistic situation, where i am actually concerned about some foreign errors
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11:32:19 <Lycurgus> if the public log in the topic weren't messed up, I could direct you to a recent convo on exceptions in haskell
11:33:41 <Lycurgus> still may be worth googling it for "exceptions" and ofc hs and exceptions generally or come back when it's more active and someone wants to hold forth on the topic
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11:34:54 <maerwald> "how to catch an error" is not an easy question in haskell :p
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12:09:55 <tomsmeding> sorry for the shitpost; this is a source file from the election vote counting software apparently in use in the netherlands: https://tomsmeding.com/vang/Tx0yjl
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12:11:34 <merijn> tomsmeding: There is not vote counting software
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12:11:41 <merijn> tomsmeding: Also, -offtopic :)
12:11:49 <tomsmeding> me apologises
12:11:53 tomsmeding ^
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12:40:02 <ph88> does anyone know how to make the argument to an optparse-applicative option optional ? the default value that is available now works for when the option is not given. I would like to have 3 states though: option not given, option given without argument, option given with arguments
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12:45:19 <tomsmeding> ph88: what if the argument to the option starts with a '-'?
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12:46:23 <ph88> same as whatever optparse-applicative does now when the argument start with "-" ... which i don't know
12:47:16 <geekosaur> tomsmeding is talking about a case that normally can't happen: is --foo --bar with --foo having your semantics --foo with parameter --bar, or --foo followed by --bar?
12:47:50 <geekosaur> basically your requested grammar is ambiguous, which it normally isn't
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12:55:04 <merijn> ph88: You can't have optional arguments in optparse
12:55:20 <merijn> You have either flags (no argument) or options (argument)
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12:57:08 <iphy> is there something like (a -> c -> (b, c)) -> [a] -> c -> [b]? I want to map [a] to [b], but also keep some state c in each iteration. basically foldr but I don't want to do the list append myself
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12:58:16 <mniip> :t mapAccumL
12:58:16 <geekosaur> :t mapAccumL
12:58:18 <lambdabot> Traversable t => (a -> b -> (a, c)) -> a -> t b -> (a, t c)
12:58:18 <lambdabot> Traversable t => (a -> b -> (a, c)) -> a -> t b -> (a, t c)
12:58:35 <iphy> perfect, thanks
12:58:52 <iphy> I tried hoogle with the above type signature and it yielded nothing
12:59:17 <iphy> should have generalised to Traversable maybe
12:59:28 <mniip> you could also traverse with State manually
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12:59:54 <mniip> :t runState . traverse state
12:59:56 <lambdabot> Traversable t => t (s -> (b, s)) -> s -> (t b, s)
13:00:11 <iphy> yeah, I think mapAccumL is exactly what I want, though
13:00:16 <mniip> :t (runState .) . traverse . state
13:00:18 <lambdabot> (Traversable t, MonadState s1 ((->) a)) => (s1 -> (StateT s2 Identity b, s1)) -> t a -> s2 -> (t b, s2)
13:00:31 <mniip> :t (runState .) . traverse . (state .)
13:00:32 <lambdabot> Traversable t => (a -> s -> (b, s)) -> t a -> s -> (t b, s)
13:00:50 <tomsmeding> @hoogle (c -> a -> (c, b)) -> c -> [a] -> (c, [b])
13:00:50 <mniip> this is also mapAccumL :P
13:00:51 <lambdabot> GHC.OldList mapAccumL :: (acc -> x -> (acc, y)) -> acc -> [x] -> (acc, [y])
13:00:51 <lambdabot> GHC.OldList mapAccumR :: (acc -> x -> (acc, y)) -> acc -> [x] -> (acc, [y])
13:00:51 <lambdabot> Data.List2010 mapAccumL :: (acc -> x -> (acc, y)) -> acc -> [x] -> (acc, [y])
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13:01:09 <tomsmeding> iphy: there's just too much variation in how you order the arguments
13:01:30 <mniip> I think the block here is the return value of (acc, [y])
13:01:34 <mniip> as opposed to [y]
13:01:43 <mniip> runState not evalState
13:01:45 <tomsmeding> flipping the arguments to the lambda, the parts of the returned pair, the second and third args of mapAccumL, and adding the accumulator to the result lets hoogle find it :p
13:01:54 <tomsmeding> I believe all those mutations are necessary
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13:42:38 <ph88> merijn, what about a switch ? it also has --switch1 --switch2 no ?
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13:46:34 <merijn> switches are just convenience version of flags where the result is boolean
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15:10:37 <Shiranai> Hello, I was going to start again the fp-course but seems some recent commit broke it https://github.com/system-f/fp-course/issues/402
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15:10:56 <Shiranai> how could I fix this? (without using a previous version of the course)
15:12:56 <Boomerang> You can enable TypeFamilies when you start ghc/ghci: ghci -XTypeFamilies
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15:18:33 <c_wraith> Better to add a language pragma to that file.
15:18:44 <tomsmeding> Shiranai: a better fix would I guess be to add ':set -XTypeFamilies' after line 15 in .ghci ?
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15:19:13 <tomsmeding> or what c_wraith says, but that ship has sailed I guess with that .ghci file
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15:19:53 <tomsmeding> apparently there is another extension that the .ghci is missing: https://github.com/system-f/fp-course/pull/387/commits/051bed156fe17898b0a4fa409594331eebc83584
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15:30:23 hackage haskoin-store 0.50.3 - Storage and index for Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash https://hackage.haskell.org/package/haskoin-store-0.50.3 (jprupp)
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15:37:05 <ixlun> Hi all, I'm trying to compile a haskell module that has C bindings, but the C library is in /opt/local/lib. I'm building with: 'cabal v2-build --extra-include-dirs="/opt/local/include/" --extra-lib-dirs="/opt/local/lib"' but this fails: https://termbin.com/bxa2
15:37:33 <ixlun> Interestingly, if you look towards the bottom of the output, the compilation command seems to be ignoring my --extra-* args; they're not being passed to the compiler
15:37:48 <ixlun> I'm not sure if this is a bug in cabal, or I'm not using it correctly
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15:39:23 <Lycurgus> path problem
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15:40:11 <Lycurgus> (assuming the lib is actually OK, which the err msg indicates might not be)
15:40:43 <merijn> Which package depends on sndfile?
15:40:56 <merijn> You directly or a dependency? (If so, which one?)
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15:41:30 <ixlun> a dependency, hsndfile
15:41:33 <Lycurgus> if it's a distributed lib rather than one you built, try installing the regular dev pkg as suggested
15:42:10 <average> I wish that Haskell, in a future version, would have built-in symbolic mathematics
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15:42:39 <average> All that type theory is converging to that anyways.. so I mean, it should at least go all the way
15:42:39 <Lycurgus> ur sayin it dont?
15:42:54 <Lycurgus> u want mathematica oder
15:43:05 <ixlun> Lycurgus: I'm on MacOS, so packages are installed in a prefix, /opt/local/
15:43:10 <average> Lycurgus: kindof
15:43:21 <merijn> ixlun: oof, hsndfile looks, eh...outdated to say the least :)
15:43:24 <Lycurgus> with brew and port they are
15:43:27 <Lycurgus> no wonder
15:43:39 <Lycurgus> (u got probs)
15:43:41 <merijn> Last change in 2015
15:44:22 <ixlun> Works fine on my linux box though
15:44:24 <merijn> ixlun: I'm actually not sure whether -extra-lib-dirs applies to *your* code or also to your dependencies
15:44:41 <ixlun> Ahh, that might be the issue
15:44:48 <merijn> ixlun: Because you need it to apply to your dependencies (i.e. hsdnfile)
15:44:48 <Lycurgus> also there's surely some macsyma like hs thing on hackage
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15:45:07 <average> Yes but that's only an interface
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15:45:39 <merijn> ixlun: You can try setting it for hsdnfile via cabal.project by doing "package hsdnfile\n ..." (you just gotta find out what ... should be extra-lib-dirs: maybe?)
15:45:40 <average> I think if Haskell manages to make symbolic math built into the language.. then it would open so many doors
15:46:03 <merijn> ixlun: https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/latest/cabal-project.html#package-configuration-options
15:46:20 <merijn> average: What's stopping you from doing that right now?
15:46:33 <average> merijn: I would first have to learn Haskell
15:46:34 <merijn> What does "built into the language" even mean?
15:46:58 <merijn> average: How can you state things about what is/isn't supported in Haskell without knowing it?
15:47:05 <average> merijn: honestly idk. there's no language out there doing it. Even Mathematica isn't doing it
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15:47:49 <average> it's doing it like.. partially
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15:48:33 <ixlun> Cool, I'll see what I can do :-)
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15:48:54 <tomsmeding> average: if you say that Mathematica only partially has symbolic mathematics built in, then I'm not sure what you mean with full symbolic math :p
15:49:24 <average> tomsmeding: I guess I don't know either. I guess we have to do it to find out what that means
15:49:44 <average> tomsmeding: I had to estimate some project for a client recently. Ended up doing 40% of the project just to be able to estimate it and provide a cost sheet and design for it
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15:49:55 <average> tomsmeding: If this was carpentry or wood-working, would've been much easier
15:50:17 <Shiranai> tomsmeding: I added both `:set -XTypeApplications` `:set -XTypeFamilies` in the .ghci but still not working on ghci, showing the same error, any ideas?
15:50:18 <tomsmeding> is that not the eternal problem in software engineering that estimating required time is hard?
15:50:42 <tomsmeding> Shiranai: can you post the exact error you are getting?
15:50:46 <average> tomsmeding: even cost estimation isn't easy
15:50:55 <average> tomsmeding: fortunately I managed to come up with some good approximations
15:51:05 <average> tomsmeding: only because I had prior experience with that kind of software
15:51:20 <Shiranai> tomsmeding: https://pastebin.com/V3YZjBfj
15:51:23 <tomsmeding> average: I dunno, I'm not surprised, estimation is hard :p
15:51:32 <average> tomsmeding: any good books about it ?
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15:52:46 <Lycurgus> numerical methods that work, forman acton
15:53:34 <average> Lycurgus: is that an answer to my estimation books question ?
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15:53:42 <tomsmeding> Shiranai: what do you get if you type `:set -XTypeFamilies` `:r` in ghci right after you get that error?
15:54:08 <tomsmeding> average: I have no idea regarding books, and I suppose that indeed was a recommendation by Lycurgus
15:54:13 <Shiranai> oh wow, it works fine; seems my ghci is not reading the .ghci despite saying so
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15:54:27 <tomsmeding> Shiranai: did you restart ghci, not just :r?
15:54:49 <Shiranai> yes
15:55:28 <tomsmeding> Shiranai: ah move that `:set -XTypeFamilies` before line 4 in the .ghci
15:55:52 <average> Lycurgus: like tomsmeding said, was that a recommendation for me ?
15:55:58 <tomsmeding> Shiranai: or, of course, add {-# LANGUAGE TypeFamilies #-} at the top of the files that produce errors
15:56:04 <tomsmeding> that's the best solution
15:56:06 <Shiranai> tomsmeding: yup that was it
15:56:43 <Shiranai> thank you
15:56:45 <Lycurgus> average, it was. But you that's just an artefact of my work/life history, there's doubtless a superior text dedicated to estimation/error
15:57:06 <Shiranai> I was looking for the correct pragma name but couldn't find it, where should I search that stuff?
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15:57:15 <Lycurgus> *you can prolly find something more specific
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15:57:44 <tomsmeding> Shiranai: GHC user's guide, usually
15:58:08 <tomsmeding> Shiranai: https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/exts/control.html
15:59:28 <Shiranai> tomsmeding: I see, thank you
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16:06:23 hackage haskoin-store-data 0.51.0 - Data for Haskoin Store https://hackage.haskell.org/package/haskoin-store-data-0.51.0 (jprupp)
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16:08:23 <__minoru__shirae> average: estimating may be useful in some cases, but don't confuse form with substance
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16:13:02 <merijn> codygman`: I just realised why your code is broken!
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16:13:07 <average> Lycurgus: you know. this is an interesting idea you propose, except it only partially maps to the problem
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16:13:31 <average> Lycurgus: if only there was a systematic way to estimate..
16:13:42 <Lycurgus> i assure there is
16:13:51 <average> Lycurgus: please elaborate, i am very curious
16:14:01 <average> Lycurgus: i can elaborate too from experience, with examples
16:14:05 <Lycurgus> and a copious literature with numerous branches
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16:14:34 <Lycurgus> one that doesn't get much play these days was popular before or during the so called AI winter
16:14:47 <Lycurgus> namely fuzzy math/sets/logic/etc
16:14:49 <__minoru__shirae> AI winter?
16:15:23 hackage haskoin-store 0.51.0 - Storage and index for Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash https://hackage.haskell.org/package/haskoin-store-0.51.0 (jprupp)
16:15:34 <Lycurgus> I mentioned acton's text because it's pithy and accessible
16:15:43 <Shiranai> are there preset settings for the lsp formatter? Out of the box it is adding newlines to every type definition, e.g. `a -> b` becomes `a -> \n b` which imo looks horrible, is this what everyone uses?
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16:16:14 <merijn> Shiranai: "no"
16:16:15 <Lycurgus> the topic of establishing good estimators is a well worked one in applied mathematics, statistics in particular
16:17:03 <Lycurgus> also if you are the one that was asking about symbolic math and complaining that hs/hackage just had interface packages
16:17:21 <Lycurgus> that's because hs is metamathematics oriented
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16:18:08 <Lycurgus> and mathematics in the sense of practical applied such as mathmematica does needs to be deferred to something actually doing practical mathematics
16:19:04 <Lycurgus> also actons text you can get a pdf off the web
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16:19:38 <Lycurgus> it being a half century old may be a distraction
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16:24:56 <__minoru__shirae> and then there is a thing that you can choose any self-fulfilling prophecy
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16:25:11 <__minoru__shirae> it doesn't matter which one you choose
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16:27:53 hackage haskeline 0.8.1.2 - A command-line interface for user input, written in Haskell. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/haskeline-0.8.1.2 (JudahJacobson)
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16:32:19 <Shiranai> merijin: what is everyone using then? How can I set that up?
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16:39:23 hackage flatparse 0.1.1.1 - High-performance parsing from strict bytestrings https://hackage.haskell.org/package/flatparse-0.1.1.1 (AndrasKovacs)
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16:43:31 <pie_> i feel like im studying haskell wrong or something
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16:43:52 <pie_> how do you end up with all these weird academic people giving youtube talks and writing articles that seem like they have a clue
16:43:58 <pie_> have i just not put enough time in? :P
16:44:17 <pie_> or do some people just pass the affinity barrier :p
16:44:50 <pie_> mostly unrelated, ive been really putting off learning any of this hype new AI stuff for years
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16:45:00 <tomsmeding> Shiranai: there is no consensus, there are multiple formatters in use, and also people that don't use a formatter :p
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16:45:05 <pie_> should I look at hasktorch or just stick to the python stuff?
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16:46:53 hackage homotuple 0.2.0.0 - Homotuple, all whose elements are the same type https://hackage.haskell.org/package/homotuple-0.2.0.0 (kakkun61)
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16:47:53 hackage persistent 2.11.0.4 - Type-safe, multi-backend data serialization. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/persistent-2.11.0.4 (parsonsmatt)
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16:51:00 <koz_> pie_: There are lots of perspectives on How to Haskell.
16:51:05 <koz_> It depends on what you wanna get done.
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17:22:47 <monochrom> https://ubikium.gitlab.io/portfolio/2021-03-13-wait-a-moment.html hahaha (from today's HWN)
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17:24:28 <koz_> fmap fmap fmap sequence fmap rofl
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17:28:33 <koz_> :t fmap fmap fmap sequence fmap
17:28:35 <lambdabot> (Traversable t, Monad m) => (a1 -> m a2) -> t a1 -> m (t a2)
17:28:47 <koz_> Just... how.
17:29:40 <tomsmeding> :t (.) (.) (.) sequence fmap
17:29:42 <lambdabot> (Traversable t, Monad m) => (a1 -> m a2) -> t a1 -> m (t a2)
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17:30:18 <koz_> Ah yes.
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17:30:50 <koz_> Sadly I don't think mapM is actually defined either of those ways.
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17:31:22 <koz_> :t (<$>) (<$>) (<$>) sequence (<$>)
17:31:24 <lambdabot> (Traversable t, Monad m) => (a1 -> m a2) -> t a1 -> m (t a2)
17:32:08 <koz_> Something something 'statements dreamed up by the utterly deranged' something. :P
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17:35:29 <tomsmeding> :t traverse
17:35:30 <lambdabot> (Traversable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
17:35:36 <tomsmeding> the same but more general
17:35:45 <tomsmeding> resistence is futile
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17:37:49 <koz_> Yeah, traverse does everything is a meme is not a meme. :P
17:37:53 hackage erlang-ffi 1.0.0 - Send messages to an Erlang node using Haskell https://hackage.haskell.org/package/erlang-ffi-1.0.0 (Szetty)
17:38:14 <monochrom> s/sequence/sequenceA/ for the Applicative version.
17:38:26 <monochrom> :t fmap fmap fmap sequenceA fmap
17:38:28 <lambdabot> (Traversable t, Applicative f) => (a1 -> f a2) -> t a1 -> f (t a2)
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17:41:47 <hyperisco> concatenative programming sticks functions together with function composition
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17:42:08 <hyperisco> is there an analogue but sticks things together with fmap?
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17:42:31 <koz_> "Bro do u even lift" programming.
17:42:42 <monochrom> You can coin the name "functorial programming".
17:42:53 <aldum> lol
17:43:24 <shad0w_> you could open the youtube channel fun fun functorials
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17:46:40 <koz_> Or 'Fun Fun Literature Club'.
17:46:49 <koz_> Or 'Fun Fun Revolution'.
17:47:03 <infinisil> I wrote a function `f :: Applicative f => Compose Maybe f a -> Compose f Maybe a`
17:47:10 <infinisil> Is there a more general implementation of this?
17:47:42 <koz_> Something like Compose . sequenceA . unCompose
17:47:51 <monochrom> :)
17:47:55 <infinisil> Oh yeah that looks like sequence
17:47:57 <infinisil> Nice
17:48:11 <infinisil> :t sequenceA
17:48:13 <lambdabot> (Traversable t, Applicative f) => t (f a) -> f (t a)
17:48:50 <koz_> (runCompose? deCompose? compost? decay?)
17:49:10 <infinisil> getCompose :)
17:49:31 <koz_> Wow, the least fun option.
17:49:37 <koz_> It should really be 'decompose'.
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17:50:43 <monochrom> newtype Compost f g a = Compost{fertilizer :: f (g a)}
17:50:48 <koz_> Or actually, coerce sequenceA might work too.
17:51:01 <infinisil> :t coerce
17:51:03 <lambdabot> error:
17:51:03 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: coerce
17:51:03 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant ‘coerced’ (imported from Control.Lens)
17:51:13 <koz_> (maybe, if Traversable doesn't hate on derivation again)
17:51:33 <koz_> % :t coerce
17:51:34 <yahb> koz_: Coercible a b => a -> b
17:51:41 <koz_> Which tells you very little.
17:52:03 <koz_> % :t coerce sequenceA
17:52:03 <yahb> koz_: (Traversable t, Applicative f, Coercible b (t (f a) -> f (t a))) => b
17:52:22 <koz_> I mean, in _theory_ that should work?
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17:52:36 <infinisil> % coerce sequenceA :: Compose Maybe f a -> Compose f Maybe a
17:52:36 <yahb> infinisil: ; <interactive>:18:21: error: Not in scope: type constructor or class `Compose'; <interactive>:18:42: error: Not in scope: type constructor or class `Compose'
17:53:08 <koz_> % import Data.Functor.Compose (Compose (Compose))
17:53:09 <yahb> koz_:
17:53:12 <infinisil> Well, the Compose . sequenceA . getCompose works well, and coerce sounds too scary :P
17:53:30 <koz_> % :t coerce sequenceA :: Compose Maybe f a -> Compose f Maybe a
17:53:30 <yahb> koz_: ; <interactive>:1:1: error:; * Couldn't match representation of type: f1 (Maybe a1); with that of: f0 [a0]; arising from a use of `coerce'; * In the expression: coerce sequenceA :: Compose Maybe f a -> Compose f Maybe a
17:53:35 <koz_> Oh ffs.
17:54:25 <koz_> There's probably some magic combination of @-nnotations and snails that can direct Coercible properly there.
17:55:33 <koz_> :% :set -fshow-foralls
17:55:39 <koz_> % :set -fshow-foralls
17:55:40 <yahb> koz_: Some flags have not been recognized: -fshow-foralls
17:55:47 <koz_> Argh what's that damned flag.
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17:56:05 <koz_> % :set -fprint-explicit-foralls
17:56:05 <yahb> koz_:
17:56:13 <koz_> % :t coerce sequenceA
17:56:13 <yahb> koz_: forall {t :: * -> *} {f :: * -> *} {b} {a}. (Traversable t, Applicative f, Coercible b (t (f a) -> f (t a))) => b
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17:56:46 <koz_> % :t coerce sequenceA @_ @_ (Compose Maybe f a -> Compose f Maybe a)
17:56:46 <yahb> koz_: ; <interactive>:1:25: error: View pattern in expression context: Compose Maybe f a -> Compose f Maybe a
17:56:53 <koz_> % :t coerce sequenceA @_ @_ @(Compose Maybe f a -> Compose f Maybe a)
17:56:53 <yahb> koz_: ; <interactive>:1:40: error: Not in scope: type variable `f'; <interactive>:1:42: error: Not in scope: type variable `a'; <interactive>:1:55: error: Not in scope: type variable `f'; <interactive>:1:63: error: Not in scope: type variable `a'
17:57:12 <koz_> % :t coerce sequenceA @Maybe @f @(Compose Maybe f a -> Compose f Maybe a)
17:57:13 <yahb> koz_: ; <interactive>:1:26: error: Not in scope: type variable `f'; <interactive>:1:44: error: Not in scope: type variable `f'; <interactive>:1:46: error: Not in scope: type variable `a'; <interactive>:1:59: error: Not in scope: type variable `f'; <interactive>:1:67: error: Not in scope: type variable `a'
17:57:20 <koz_> OK I give up rofl.
17:57:49 <koz_> Welcome to the biggest issue with Coercible I guess.
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18:05:19 <shapr> hyperisco: I've seen functorial programming before, I think in an roconnor blog post?
18:05:59 <shapr> hyperisco: found what I wsa remembering http://r6.ca/blog/20171010T001746Z.html
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18:06:55 <hyperisco> shapr, ty
18:08:06 <hyperisco> basically a generalisation of these effect systems we're seeing
18:09:22 <hyperisco> I would like to see how this could be used for general programming, like say SK combinators are shown
18:10:26 <shapr> roconnor: did you post more things in the vein of that functor oriented programming subject?
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18:15:42 <bbhoss> anyone using vscode with HSL? sometimes it finds a problem with my code and it seems the only way to clear it is to restart vscode completely. am I missing something?
18:15:46 <bbhoss> *HLS
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18:28:31 <tomsmeding> bbhoss: what kind of problem would it get stuck on?
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18:29:34 <bbhoss> in this case just some small issue where the type didnt have an instance of Show and I was using the show fn. added deriving (Show) to it and it builds fine. Restart and the problem is gone
18:29:39 <dolio> I know someone who's mentioned probably the same issue.
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18:30:03 <dolio> Somehow some errors make the language server get into an unrecoverable state or something.
18:30:16 <dolio> I don't know the details, though.
18:30:18 <bbhoss> I've run into this with other extensions but usually there's a way to restart the server without a full editor restart
18:30:27 <bbhoss> (other exts with other langs)
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18:32:50 tomsmeding has no idea, I don't use vscode, my editor allows me to restart the language server :p
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18:38:43 <gentauro> tomsmeding: you use emacs right?
18:39:00 <tomsmeding> neovim :p
18:39:10 <tomsmeding> have never used emacs
18:42:08 <monochrom> neovim = never emacs only vim
18:42:47 <epicte7us> bbhoss: I have issues like that as well with HLS and VSCode, if I don't want to completely restart VS code I'll do View -> Command Palette -> Developer: Reload Window
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18:46:11 <geekosaur> neovim: vim is the new emacs
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18:46:56 <tomsmeding> at least it doesn't have tetris yet
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18:47:50 <shapr> emacs is the new vim
18:48:01 <ephemient> tomsmeding: https://github.com/alec-gibson/nvim-tetris
18:48:35 <tomsmeding> ephemient: there is no question that someone has implemented it, but at least it doesn't ship with tetris :p
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18:49:09 <ephemient> fair :)
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19:11:15 <gentauro> tomsmeding: I tried vi, ended turning off my laptop. I couldn't get out :(
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19:13:25 <tomsmeding> :p
19:13:30 <tomsmeding> it's a trap
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19:15:25 <tomsmeding> ircbrowse had some many useful features https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/export/something https://github.com/tomsmeding/ircbrowse/blob/master/src/Ircbrowse/Controllers.hs#L39-L41
19:15:25 <solidus-river> gentauro: https://vim-adventures.com/ ?!? great tool
19:17:45 <gentauro> solidus-river: last time I tried `vi` was around 2005. Then I met `emacs` and I have never looked for another Operating System. The only thing missing in `emacs` is a good text editor ;)
19:19:21 <maerwald> the only good argument pro emacs I agree with is that you have always a consistent key mapping across applications
19:20:48 <tomsmeding> a while ago I found myself typing 'gg' in my web browser and very briefly being surprised that the page didn't move
19:21:09 <tomsmeding> I was tired then, I believe
19:21:14 <dolio> There used to be solutions to that.
19:21:19 <ephemient> gentauro: https://github.com/emacs-evil/evil there's your decent editor for emacs :)
19:21:21 <maerwald> vim vixxen etc
19:21:31 <dolio> I think the plugin restrictions ruined it, though.
19:21:32 <maerwald> but you still have to configure separately
19:21:44 <tomsmeding> yeah I know there are browser extensions that give you vim-style bindings
19:21:45 <maerwald> dolio: works fine... but you have to wait for the page to have loaded
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19:22:01 <maerwald> kinda weird
19:22:30 <dolio> 'Course, I think restricting plugins was more valuable than vim bindings for browsers.
19:22:31 <tomsmeding> I'm not completely sold on vim keybindings in applications they weren't designed for, but eh
19:23:39 <oats> I love it for web browsing
19:23:42 <oats> qutebrowser++
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19:25:02 <dolio> My biggest issue with browsers is text areas not matching text input modes in other stuff. Like ^W killing a browser tab rather than deleting back a word.
19:26:11 <oats> heh yeah
19:27:26 <dolio> Luckily they're pretty good at being able to restore the closed tab.
19:28:36 <monochrom> Now, does ctrl-shift-t restore the word that ctrl-w deleted in a terminal? >:)
19:29:01 <dolio> No, but I never need it to.
19:29:27 <monochrom> I have needed it a few times.
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19:30:17 <monochrom> Especially when I got the initial command line by reverse history search, deleted the last two words, then regretted it.
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19:30:51 <ephemient> emacs/readline-style bindings: ctrl-y to bring back what ctrl-w put on the kill ring
19:31:19 <ephemient> probably terminal can't do ctrl-shift-t due to no distinction between that and ctrl-t...
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19:31:40 <dolio> Oh yeah. I was going to mention that but I forgot it was ^Y.
19:31:49 <dolio> I was thinking it was ^K for some reason, but that's the opposite.
19:31:51 <tomsmeding> ephemient: ctrl-y only works for the last word; monochrom deleted the last two :p
19:32:17 <geekosaur> ctrl-underscore (= undo) also works here
19:32:18 <monochrom> ooohhh nice, ctrl-y, thanks
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19:32:36 <dolio> ^Y brings back everything in the kill buffer, which would be all the words probably.
19:32:37 <ephemient> it *should* work even if you ctrl-w'ed multiple words
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19:32:58 <dolio> And having to re-delete some is your punishment that makes you not make mistakes in the future.
19:33:02 <monochrom> Restoring too much is better than restoring nothing. :)
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19:33:51 <geekosaur> and ctrl-y restored the whole thing for me. (zsh)
19:34:17 <monochrom> The thing is these modern unix-style CLI flag-and-option incantations are approaching the complexity of magic spells that you will never remember or synthesize them, you can only recognize them when you see them.
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19:38:47 <monochrom> bash M-r restores the line to initial state. (Now I'm reading the bash man page for real.) This is nice when I'm mucking with the outcome of history search.
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19:42:16 <tomsmeding> ah I see, my shell indeed restores everything on ctrl-y; my irc client (weechat) has a broken readline reimplementation that restores only 1 word
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19:44:02 <geekosaur> keep in mind that this is arguable, since it's actually conflating emacs kill-region with bsd tty driver delete-last-word
19:44:25 <monochrom> I think C-_ is the most general-purpose least-surprise undo we can normally default to.
19:44:28 <geekosaur> so it's arguable that there shouldn't be a kill ring involved
19:46:38 <dolio> The only thing that seems arguable is which behavior is more convenient most of the time.
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19:47:19 <dolio> I would probably lean toward the emacs-like behavior for that.
19:48:18 <monochrom> Clearly, both command lines and the browser tabs need a version control system >:)
19:48:19 <dolio> Perhaps not the full emacs behavior, which would be complicated to implement.
19:48:51 <dolio> But having consecutive ^Ws add to the ^Y paste is nice.
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19:54:00 <bbhoss> do I have to do something special to export data constructors? I'm exporting a couple of types I'm creating with `newtype` but when I import Lib in Spec.hs it can't find them
19:54:13 <koz_> bbhoss: How are you exporting them now?
19:54:29 <monochrom> module TheExporter(MyType(..)) where
19:54:43 <bbhoss> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/UhZQRUjf/
19:55:09 <monochrom> Yeah you need Ballot(..), Candidate(..)
19:55:33 <koz_> If you export 'Foo', you export the type but not the constructors.
19:55:36 <bbhoss> literally `..`? also, is there a better way to do this?
19:55:49 <koz_> If you export 'Foo(Bar, Baz)', you export the type, and the 'Bar' and 'Baz' constructors.
19:55:54 <geekosaur> literally ..
19:55:55 <monochrom> No better way. Unless you mean longer way.
19:56:05 <koz_> If you export 'Foo(..)', you export the type 'Foo', and all of its constructors.
19:56:51 <bbhoss> haha alright, it seemed a little clunky, but I am a n00b obviously. I guess alternatively I could export a function that does this?
19:56:51 <geekosaur> there is of course simply exporting everything by not specifying an export list
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19:58:07 <monochrom> There are times you export just the type name, but hide constructors and field selectors, to present your type as an abstract type.
19:58:45 <monochrom> Therefore one way or another, there needs one syntax for type-only, and one other syntax for type-and-its-guts.
19:58:53 hackage tasty-bench 0.2.3 - Featherlight benchmark framework https://hackage.haskell.org/package/tasty-bench-0.2.3 (Bodigrim)
19:59:03 <monochrom> That is the minimum requirement for any syntax design at all.
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19:59:12 <bbhoss> got it, just want to make sure I was being idiomatic
20:00:23 <bbhoss> I don't need to export the type AND the MyType(..) do I? It seems to work without exporting the type
20:01:03 <edmundnoble> You cannot export a type's constructors without exporting the type
20:01:14 <geekosaur> because it'd be meaningless
20:01:18 <edmundnoble> Well
20:01:32 <edmundnoble> Hm can you export functions without exporting their return type
20:01:42 <edmundnoble> Or I suppose more generally, names without exporting their types
20:01:50 <Uniaika> hmm
20:01:57 <Uniaika> I have a naïve question
20:02:03 <edmundnoble> Best kind
20:02:11 <bbhoss> right, so exporting MyType(..) implies that the type is exported
20:02:16 <edmundnoble> Does yes
20:02:16 <Uniaika> if unboxed integers (for instance) are so great for performance, why aren't they the default kind of integer?
20:02:29 <edmundnoble> Unboxed integers are not necessarily great for performance
20:02:33 <edmundnoble> Because they are not lazy
20:02:40 <edmundnoble> But even assuming they were, in all cases, better for performance
20:02:43 <mniip> Uniaika, historical reasons
20:02:56 <edmundnoble> Type parameters cannot be instantiated by unboxed types in most cases
20:03:03 <Uniaika> oh my, mniip and edmund in the chan. I feel like on Discord
20:03:09 <Uniaika> edmundnoble: I see!
20:03:09 <mniip> we've only very recently figured out the story with runtime representations in kinds
20:03:09 <edmundnoble> Lmao I haven't seen you on discord
20:03:14 <mniip> hecate
20:03:20 <Uniaika> edmundnoble: yes you did :3
20:03:21 <edmundnoble> Oh hai
20:03:32 <mniip> furthermore you lose polymorphism
20:03:40 <Uniaika> mniip: Int vs Int# ?
20:03:43 <mniip> yes
20:03:46 <mniip> sometime edwardk is trying to win back
20:03:50 <Uniaika> but aren't they both concrete types?
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20:03:52 <edmundnoble> Oh right so if you mean "why aren't they the default" like why isn't that the default `Num` instance
20:03:57 <edmundnoble> There is no `Num` instance for `Int#`
20:03:57 <mniip> ask him about compiling a package 1700 times with backpack
20:03:57 <edmundnoble> At all
20:04:05 <dolio> You can't put an Int# in a list.
20:04:08 <edmundnoble> Because `Int#` is an unboxed type, so it doesn't have kind `*`
20:04:09 <koz_> There is no anything instance for Int#.
20:04:13 <edmundnoble> Well
20:04:16 <mniip> % [0#]
20:04:16 <yahb> mniip: ; <interactive>:31:2: error:; * Couldn't match a lifted type with an unlifted type; When matching types; a :: *; Int# :: TYPE 'GHC.Exts.IntRep; * In the expression: 0#; In the expression: [0#]; In an equation for `it': it = [0#]; * Relevant bindings include it :: [a] (bound at <interactive>:31:1)
20:04:24 <mniip> it really doesn't work
20:04:27 <edmundnoble> I think you can have type class instances for unlifted types
20:04:38 <mniip> you can write things for unlifted types yes
20:04:38 <Uniaika> I see I see
20:04:42 <edmundnoble> But they will be able to do very little, subject to levity polymorphism's restrictions
20:04:45 <dolio> Everything that deals with Int# has to specifically deal with it, and not be polymorphic.
20:04:48 <mniip> but you can never accept a runtimerep-polymorphic argument
20:04:52 <edmundnoble> Right
20:04:54 <koz_> edmundnoble: Really? I thought that type variables for type classes default to Type?
20:04:58 <mniip> this includes data constructors and class methods
20:05:00 <edmundnoble> The big issue is that unlifted shit doesn't have the kind `*`
20:05:09 <edmundnoble> And almost all terms have types with kind `*`
20:05:14 <Uniaika> % :k 0#
20:05:14 <yahb> Uniaika: ; <interactive>:1:1: error: parse error on input `0#'
20:05:19 <Uniaika> dangit
20:05:21 <myShoggoth> Streaming GHC GC code reading and analysis: https://www.twitch.tv/myshoggoth
20:05:23 <mniip> % :k Int#
20:05:23 <yahb> mniip: TYPE 'GHC.Exts.IntRep
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20:05:28 <koz_> Uniaika: I recommend reading Kinds Are Calling Conventions.
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20:05:31 <edmundnoble> % :k Int
20:05:31 <yahb> edmundnoble: *
20:05:37 <mniip> * = TYPE LiftedRep
20:05:40 <edmundnoble> And `*` is what again,
20:05:41 <edmundnoble> Gotcha
20:05:46 <koz_> It's a very readable paper and goes into some detail explaining why the restrictions around unlifted types exist.
20:05:48 <Uniaika> koz_: great, thanks
20:06:02 <edmundnoble> koz_: that's not what you said, you said there are no instances of anything
20:06:05 <koz_> (yes, there was a 'Types are Calling Conventions' before it)
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20:06:27 <edmundnoble> It is true however that if you have a type class with kind for example `* -> Constraint`, you will not be able to have instances for unlifted types
20:06:42 <Uniaika> edmundnoble: okay so there is a fundamental conflict between "TYPE LiftedRep" and "TYPE IntRep"
20:06:48 <mniip> you can have a polykinded class
20:06:48 <edmundnoble> They just don't unify, yes
20:06:51 <koz_> edmundnoble: I don't think I said there are no instances fro anything. I said there are no instances of anything for Int#.
20:07:01 <dolio> Yes, those are not the same calling convention.
20:07:03 <edmundnoble> Right, which is incorrect
20:07:10 edmundnoble There can be instances of things for `Int#`
20:07:16 <edmundnoble> There are just far fewer
20:07:26 <koz_> Wait, so what instances exist for Int#?
20:07:31 <koz_> Because I'm not aware of any.
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20:07:38 <mniip> % class Show# (a :: TYPE r) where show# :: a -> String; instance Show a => Show# a where show# = show; instance Show# Int# where show# x = show (I# x) ++ "#"
20:07:38 <yahb> mniip: ; <interactive>:35:55: error: parse error on input `instance'
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20:07:56 <mniip> % class Show# (a :: TYPE r) where { show# :: a -> String }; instance Show a => Show# a where { show# = show }; instance Show# Int# where { show# x = show (I# x) ++ "#" }
20:07:56 <yahb> mniip:
20:08:00 <mniip> % show# 0#
20:08:00 <yahb> mniip: "0#"
20:08:13 <mniip> this doesn't violate levity polymorphism restrictions
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20:08:43 <koz_> I admit I was a tad unclear. My intended statement was 'at this present moment, no instances of anything exist for Int# in code'. Not 'there can be no ...'.
20:08:58 <edmundnoble> Well now one does ;)
20:09:10 <koz_> I generally don't talk of instances in non-constructive terms. :P
20:09:13 <edmundnoble> I actually would not be surprised if there was an instance of `Typeable`
20:09:18 <mniip> edward is working on fixing that :P
20:09:21 <koz_> That's a good question actually.
20:09:28 <mniip> % typeRep @Int#
20:09:28 <yahb> mniip: ; <interactive>:38:10: error:; * Expected kind `k0 -> *', but `Int#' has kind `TYPE 'GHC.Exts.IntRep'; * In the type `Int#'; In the expression: typeRep @Int#; In an equation for `it': it = typeRep @Int#
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20:09:51 <mniip> % Type.Reflection.typeRep @Int#
20:09:51 <yahb> mniip: Int#
20:09:55 <mniip> so it does
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20:10:03 <dolio> Having 1700 backpack packages isn't going to fix anything.
20:10:05 <mniip> I bet it also has an instance of (~) Int#
20:10:15 <edmundnoble> Hahahaha
20:10:19 <edmundnoble> Yes true
20:10:30 <edmundnoble> Cheeky
20:10:33 <koz_> I wonder if it has Coercible?
20:10:39 <mniip> sure does
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20:10:56 <edmundnoble> With unliftednewtypes I'd hope so
20:11:04 <mniip> % newtype N = N Int#
20:11:04 <yahb> mniip:
20:11:05 <koz_> TIL!
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20:11:11 <koz_> Thank you #haskell.
20:11:16 <mniip> % show# (coerce (N 3#) :: Int#)
20:11:17 <yahb> mniip: "3#"
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20:11:49 <edmundnoble> There intuitively seems to be many less useful instances of levity-polymorphic type classes than there are levity-monomorphic ones, for sure
20:12:08 <mniip> there are many issues
20:12:28 <edmundnoble> The lack of `Num` is the obviously painful one that really takes you into Perl-land when you want to do math on unboxed stuff
20:12:43 <koz_> edmundnoble: Yep, been there, and it felt like writing Core.
20:13:07 <edmundnoble> I recently mangled my code to do math on unboxed stuff, and let me tell you
20:13:10 <edmundnoble> Half the allocations
20:13:15 <edmundnoble> Exact same time taken
20:13:22 <edmundnoble> Facepalm
20:13:34 <Uniaika> Thanks to you all
20:13:40 <edmundnoble> Same live set size too :P
20:13:48 <edmundnoble> Np uwuni
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20:14:29 <koz_> When do we get 'Sorts are Calling Conventions'? :P
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20:14:43 <Uniaika> edmundnoble: UwU
20:15:15 <koz_> Uniaika: Nyan nyan.
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20:15:47 <timCF> Hello! I have a question. Is type `Either a b` really a functor? Just thinking that functor class implies 1 type parameter, but here we have 2 - it not matching.
20:15:55 <Uniaika> koz_: :D
20:16:05 <Uniaika> timCF: nope, Either a b is not a functor
20:16:07 <Uniaika> that being said
20:16:09 <koz_> timCF: 'Either a b' isn't a functor. 'Either a' is.
20:16:13 <Uniaika> (Either a) is a functor
20:16:18 <koz_> (for all a, even)
20:16:19 <Uniaika> and the type parameter is b
20:16:37 <Uniaika> same thing with (a,b) tuples
20:16:50 <koz_> And a -> b.
20:16:53 <Uniaika> timCF: actually, Viktor Dukhovni authored a nice write-up about it
20:17:00 <Uniaika> let me find that for you
20:19:11 <[exa]> timCF: the 1 parameter should be "missing" in the definition, the functor (Either a) is in fact something like `Either a _`. That way, `fmap (f :: b->c)` can cleanly turn `((Either a) b)` to `((Either a) c)` without trying to interfere with the "base" definition. I added the parentheses there for clarity.
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20:20:43 <timCF> Uniaika: koz_: [exa]: thanks! I did found definition in Prelude, indeed it matches what you did said https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.1.0/docs/src/Data.Either.html#line-133
20:21:01 <[exa]> timCF: if you would like to see the theoretical reason, fire up ghci and, with :k, try to see the kind of: `Int`, `[Int]`, `[]`, `Maybe`, `Maybe Int` and say `Num` and `Functor`
20:24:08 <Uniaika> timCF: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/blob/master/libraries/base/GHC/Base.hs#L515-563
20:24:13 <Uniaika> read that
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20:26:09 <monochrom> You can understand "Either X Y" as "(Either X) Y".
20:26:33 <Uniaika> timCF: if you want a typeclass that allows you to have both, that's Bifunctor
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20:27:18 <timCF> Uniaika: monochrom: thanks!
20:31:21 <koz_> Uniaika: Bifunctor <3.
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20:31:46 <Uniaika> koz_: yus <3
20:32:10 <monochrom> trifunctor = 3
20:32:19 <koz_> monochrom: OMG ROFL
20:32:23 <koz_> I didn't even see that.
20:32:31 <geekosaur> heh
20:32:50 <koz_> Thus, Functor <3
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20:33:02 <Uniaika> monochrom: hahaha
20:33:27 <monochrom> Where other people have associative memory, I have pun memory.
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20:48:22 <gues62271> hi, which library should I use for smtp/imap? are there any alternatives for HaskellNet?
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20:48:51 <[exa]> gues62271: I guess for SMTP clients and IMAP clients?
20:48:56 → hiroaki joins (~hiroaki@2a02:8108:8c40:2bb8:4243:d03e:128:ecd8)
20:49:05 <gues62271> exactly
20:49:25 <[exa]> gues62271: there's Network.Mail.SMTP which could work for 99% usecases
20:50:09 <gues62271> cool, it would handle 'sending'
20:50:59 <[exa]> highly suggest to use the `sendmail` backend, e-mail configuration gets tricky too often to reimplement it
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20:51:14 <[exa]> `mime-mail` package helps with making relatively good mails
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20:52:09 <gues62271> thanks
20:52:12 <[exa]> anyway I didn't use any imap library, not sure if there are any either
20:52:24 <gues62271> I found HaskellNet...
20:52:36 <gues62271> https://github.com/qnikst/HaskellNet
20:52:52 <[exa]> hm good, that's kinda integrated
20:52:56 <gues62271> not sure if it's something that can be trusted ;)
20:53:27 <[exa]> I guess it's good for a prototype
20:53:45 <[exa]> reimplementing IMAP in haskell shouldn't be that hard actually
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20:54:28 <[exa]> like, the mail protocols are a mess, but you can always start by improving this one package
20:55:03 <gues62271> ok, will play with that and see what I can do
20:55:08 <gues62271> thanks, again
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20:56:20 <shapr> gues62271: if you start improving HaskellNet, could you link your repo here?
20:56:39 <gues62271> sure
20:56:47 <[exa]> gues62271: anyway, what's the higher purpose? (there might be better ways :D )
20:57:50 <gues62271> long story short, I want to make simple standalone house monitoring - powerbank + rpi + camera + custom software written in Haskell of course
20:58:15 <[exa]> I guess you don't require that it runs on windows right?
20:58:22 <gues62271> as the network link is limited there I want to use e-mail for communication in request-response model
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20:58:56 <gues62271> and after move detectors will be installed just some notifications (text, images, sounds and so on)
20:59:21 <gues62271> nope, linux of freebsd
20:59:35 <shapr> gues62271: sounds nifty
21:00:02 <gues62271> but I'm afraid freebsd is not a good Haskell platform now :(
21:00:03 <[exa]> if you're on unix, there's a load of reliable tiny utilities for handling mail that you can just execute periodically from haskell and see the nice results
21:00:03 <gues62271> pirt
21:00:05 <gues62271> pity
21:00:48 <gues62271> yeah but that way Haskell would work as some glue script
21:01:00 <[exa]> `sendmail` and `fetchmail` would work nicely I guess
21:01:20 <[exa]> there's a nice howto on this somewhere around `notmuch`
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21:01:47 <[exa]> mutt has its own mail fetcher, pretty good one iirc
21:02:44 <gues62271> ok, will give a chance HaskellNet if it fails will try other backends
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22:19:59 <slack1256> Do BangPatterns do anything on newtypes?
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22:26:44 <Uniaika> slack1256: do you know how to use them, first?
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22:28:48 <slack1256> Yep, at runtime they ought not to exist so the isomorphism between Foo undefined and undefined holds.
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22:31:57 <Uniaika> slack1256: do you know about the strictness difference between newtypes and strict data-types ?
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22:33:37 <slack1256> Yeah, if you have single datatypes with strictness and use them only on let matching, they equivalent to newtypes. Case expressions don't do work on newtypes.
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22:49:24 <monochrom> seq and therefore BangPatterns does something to newtype too.
22:49:48 <monochrom> % newtype MonoN = MonoN Int deriving (Show, Eq)
22:49:48 <yahb> monochrom:
22:50:13 <monochrom> > let { n :: MonoN; !n = undefined } in ()
22:50:15 <lambdabot> error:
22:50:16 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘MonoN’
22:50:24 <monochrom> oops wrong bot
22:50:30 <monochrom> % let { n :: MonoN; !n = undefined } in ()
22:50:30 <yahb> monochrom: *** Exception: Prelude.undefined; CallStack (from HasCallStack):; error, called at libraries/base/GHC/Err.hs:75:14 in base:GHC.Err; undefined, called at <interactive>:43:24 in interactive:Ghci17
22:50:35 <monochrom> % let { n :: MonoN; n = undefined } in ()
22:50:35 <yahb> monochrom: ()
22:50:54 <monochrom> > seq (undefined :: MonoN) ()
22:50:55 <lambdabot> error:
22:50:55 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘MonoN’
22:51:00 <monochrom> % seq (undefined :: MonoN) ()
22:51:00 <yahb> monochrom: *** Exception: Prelude.undefined; CallStack (from HasCallStack):; error, called at libraries/base/GHC/Err.hs:75:14 in base:GHC.Err; undefined, called at <interactive>:45:6 in interactive:Ghci18
22:51:38 <Axman6> is the question if !(x :: Identity a) the same as (Identity !x)
22:51:44 <monochrom> These bottoms also happen if you s/undefined/MonoN undefined/
22:54:47 <monochrom> % let { !(MonoN x) = undefined } in ()
22:54:47 <yahb> monochrom: *** Exception: Prelude.undefined; CallStack (from HasCallStack):; error, called at libraries/base/GHC/Err.hs:75:14 in base:GHC.Err; undefined, called at <interactive>:46:20 in interactive:Ghci18
22:54:56 <monochrom> % let { (MonoN !x) = undefined } in ()
22:54:56 <yahb> monochrom: ()
22:55:00 <monochrom> Different
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22:56:10 <Axman6> that genuinely surprises me
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22:56:37 <monochrom> For maximum accuracy, you can always translate ! back to seq (tedious but the GHC user's guide has it), then take note that both "seq (undefined :: MonoN) ()" and "seq (MonoN undefined) ()" both bomb.
22:57:18 <monochrom> What doesn't bomb is "case undefined of MonoN _ -> ()"
22:57:29 <monochrom> % case undefined of MonoN _ -> ()
22:57:29 <yahb> monochrom: ()
22:57:48 <monochrom> So seq is a bit different from pattern matching for newtypes.
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23:04:27 <monochrom> This subtlety is all implied by the Haskell Report. One clause says MonoN bottom = bottom. Another clause says seq bottom () = bottom, so MonoN bottom is included. Lastly, the pattern matching clauses have a corner case for "(case bottom of MonoN pat -> e) = (case bottom of pat -> e)" but my pat is _
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23:14:53 hackage kempe 0.2.0.0 - Kempe compiler https://hackage.haskell.org/package/kempe-0.2.0.0 (vmchale)
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