Logs on 2021-03-19 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 00:38:53 | hackage | persistent-mtl 0.2.1.0 - Monad transformer for the persistent API https://hackage.haskell.org/package/persistent-mtl-0.2.1.0 (brandonchinn178) |
| 00:41:04 | <koz_> | If I use http://hackage.haskell.org/package/primitive-0.7.1.0/docs/Data-Primitive-ByteArray.html#v:newByteArray, taking care to specify the size as a multiple of Word size, will it be Word-aligned? |
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| 00:45:48 | <ephemient> | koz_: I would expect so because the object header comes before it and I think that has to be word aligned, but I don't know if it's guaranteed anywhere |
| 00:46:09 | <koz_> | ephemient: I've asked in #ghc for clarification. |
| 00:46:15 | <koz_> | If anyone knows they would. |
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| 01:17:34 | <Axman6> | koz_: what're you playing with byte arrays for? I was also looking at them this morning... |
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| 01:17:45 | <koz_> | Axman6: I'm writing a new back-end for text-ascii. |
| 01:18:04 | <koz_> | Also, Word# alignment has been confirmed, ephemient . |
| 01:18:08 | <koz_> | By Ben Gamari himself. |
| 01:18:09 | <Axman6> | ah nice. I'm doing a lot of thinking about text-utf8 :) |
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| 01:22:00 | <monochrom> | lyxia: ohai I just randomly noticed you co-authored the paper "interaction trees: ... impure programs in Coq", and it's recently too, like just last year. Is it true that this is "simply" noticing that free monads are trees, especially eg "data PutGet r = ... | Get (Char -> PutGet) | ..." is a tree s.t. each path stands for a particular user session? |
| 01:22:17 | <emmanuel_erc> | So I've run into this frustrating case where compiling a module with a case statament casing on a GADT with 32 clauses, is taking both a long time and a lot of memory (several GBs) |
| 01:22:28 | <emmanuel_erc> | Has anyone ever run into a situation like this? |
| 01:22:40 | <Axman6> | D: |
| 01:22:55 | <Axman6> | that sounds unoptimal |
| 01:24:37 | <monochrom> | (I was entering "benjamin pierce advanced types and programming languages" into my university's library website in hope of locating a free online copy of AdvancedTaPL from our library. It came back with book reviews and then a lot of Pierce-coauthored papers.) |
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| 01:25:46 | <koz_> | emmanuel_erc: I haven't seen this with GADTs, but I know large sums, products or records aren't wonderful with GHC. |
| 01:25:50 | <Axman6> | emmanuel_erc: do you have a minimal example? |
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| 01:27:17 | <emmanuel_erc> | Axma6: Sure, I can produce that. |
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| 01:38:07 | <emmanuel_erc> | Axman6: Here is my minimal example http://ix.io/2Tng |
| 01:38:55 | <emmanuel_erc> | I suppose I should have been more specific, I'm using dependent sums ala https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dependent-sum |
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| 01:40:29 | <Axman6> | yeah that'd definitely not a minimal example, that's just a snippet of code. would be good to at least have syntax highlighting |
| 01:41:24 | Axman6 | is weary that the favicon is Rick Astley |
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| 01:48:00 | <emmanuel_erc> | ah |
| 01:48:35 | <emmanuel_erc> | Axman6: I didn't want to post on pastebin. |
| 01:48:56 | <emmanuel_erc> | I guess I could post the entire case statement (it is LONG) as a gist. |
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| 01:52:34 | <lyxia> | monochrom: that's where the name comes from but the extra work is in formalizing the right notion of equality and dealing with nontermination in a total language. |
| 01:54:21 | <monochrom> | Ah, equality is a lot of work, yes. |
| 01:57:00 | <emmanuel_erc> | Axma6: Is this better? https://gist.github.com/emmanueldenloye/33d9751c66110d9f32a5f51f42a8d1c4 |
| 01:58:29 | <ephemient> | emmanuel_erc: by minimal example something along the lines of https://stackoverflow.com/help/reprex is meant |
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| 02:00:04 | <emmanuel_erc> | Ok thanks ephemient |
| 02:00:32 | <emmanuel_erc> | This might take a little bit longer to produce. But I'll be back. |
| 02:00:48 | <emmanuel_erc> | And sorry for the spam I suppose. |
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| 02:15:42 | <siraben> | monochrom: very nice |
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| 02:15:57 | <siraben> | I wonder if there's a formalization of TAPL material in Coq or something |
| 02:16:31 | <siraben> | I found the usual proofs of soundness and preservation tedious as they added more and more language constructs |
| 02:16:46 | <lyxia> | siraben: https://www.seas.upenn.edu/~plclub/poplmark/ |
| 02:18:43 | <siraben> | lyxia: oh, great! |
| 02:19:10 | siraben | hopes to get through all these references when he's done reviewing vol 1 & 2 of software foundations |
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| 02:49:23 | <Axman6> | Came across this on Lobste.rs, and just reading the abstract I thought there could be some interesting applications to GHC... turns out they're way ahead of me https://drops.dagstuhl.de/opus/volltexte/2017/7273/ |
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| 03:59:58 | <emmanuel_erc> | Axman6: Here is a minimal example, hopefully. https://gist.github.com/emmanueldenloye/68767ab87827a5e048d4a9cecffa43b4. This compiles and runs and I assume you have a version of cabal that allows for cabal scripting. |
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| 04:00:50 | <emmanuel_erc> | Of course, the compilation speed here is relatively fast because there are few cases. In the code that I showed previously (this is the example where compilation chokes) there are at least 30 cases to consider. |
| 04:01:10 | <emmanuel_erc> | Is there someway to alleviate the burden of the compiler? |
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| 04:37:44 | <dramforever> | Is https://gitlab.haskell.org down? |
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| 04:45:39 | <ephemient> | dramforever: seems like it, I can't get to it either |
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| 04:48:12 | <ephemient> | emmanuel_erc: doesn't seem reproducible to me. I even cloned them to `data MinimalTag where MinimalTag_String1 ... MinimalTagFloat100` for 500 cases total, and my Cabal+run time went from 2 seconds to 3 seconds. maybe it's missing something? |
| 04:48:34 | <ephemient> | I wonder if you're running into something like https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/ghc-devs/2018-March/015538.html though |
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| 05:04:28 | <emmanuel_erc> | ephemient: Thanks for answering and showing me that thread. |
| 05:04:46 | <emmanuel_erc> | It seems like the only way to get past this strangeness is to turn off the pattern match checker |
| 05:04:54 | <emmanuel_erc> | This seems strange...maybe dangerous. |
| 05:06:01 | <bobweb> | Hi. I have this problem: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/9aXgZdwX Please help me to get my Functor instance to compile. Thank you. |
| 05:08:42 | <ephemient> | :t +v fmap |
| 05:08:43 | <lambdabot> | Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b |
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| 05:09:38 | <ephemient> | hmm was there some way to get lambdabot/eval to explicitly print out the forall.? |
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| 05:10:07 | <bobweb> | Sorry, that came from the ghci capture. |
| 05:10:41 | <ephemient> | in any case, bobweb. "how do i make the compiler understand that the function f should be (a -> a)" you can't, fmap :: forall (f :: * -> *) a b. Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b means that it has to work for all types a and b, not restricted to ones that you choose |
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| 05:11:40 | <bobweb> | So it's impossible to instantiate Functor for a type (Pair a a) ? |
| 05:11:57 | <ephemient> | you don't have a type Pair a a, you have a type Pair a |
| 05:12:06 | <ephemient> | and it is possible, just not in the way you're thinking |
| 05:12:30 | <bobweb> | Sorry, type (Pair a) yes, data constructor (Pair a a). |
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| 05:13:09 | <bobweb> | OK. Well, I'm a noob. Any suggestions? |
| 05:13:46 | <ephemient> | I don't know how to give a hint without spoiling the whole thing, and I think it would be more elucidating if you figured it out yourself... |
| 05:14:11 | <bobweb> | OK. Thanks. |
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| 05:14:30 | <ephemient> | but what makes you want to use (f y)? |
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| 05:15:36 | <bobweb> | Because the function f has to apply to the last argument to satisfy kindedness |
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| 05:17:01 | <ephemient> | of the type, but you're working with the values there |
| 05:18:04 | <ephemient> | it's totally legal to define data Pair a b = Pair b a, for example, and then Functor (Pair a) would have to fmap the *first* (b) part of the constructor |
| 05:18:29 | <ephemient> | perhaps give Pair (type) and Pair (data constructor) different names and you'll see? |
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| 05:21:21 | <bobweb> | OK, but the exercise gives the data constructor parameters as a a not a b and trying to make them a b gives a variable not in scope error for the b. |
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| 05:25:38 | <ephemient> | Pair b (type) = Pair b b (value) |
| 05:25:48 | <ephemient> | how would you make that? |
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| 05:26:28 | <bobweb> | data Pair b = Pair b b |
| 05:26:55 | <bobweb> | deriving (Eq, Show) |
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| 05:28:03 | <ephemient> | ... my point's not getting across, hmm. |
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| 05:28:19 | <bobweb> | Apologies. |
| 05:28:32 | <ephemient> | ok, different tack. how would you implement pure :: a -> Pair a? |
| 05:29:33 | <bobweb> | pure 5 = Pair 5 5 |
| 05:29:57 | <ephemient> | right, you don't just put it in the last slot... |
| 05:30:30 | <bobweb> | OK, BRB |
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| 05:32:35 | <bobweb> | Well, damn. OK, so = Pair (f x) (f y) |
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| 05:33:19 | <bobweb> | so the whole kindednes thing is irrelevant in this case. |
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| 05:34:51 | <bobweb> | or rather, it's not an issue because Pair a (type) is * -> * |
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| 05:35:27 | <ephemient> | a needs to be the last part of Pair :: * -> * (type), but that doesn't mean the same of Pair :: a -> a -> Pair a (value) |
| 05:37:07 | <bobweb> | Yes. Thank you for relieving my tunnel vision, ephemient: ! |
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| 07:18:21 | <shad0w_> | whatsup with gitlab.haskell.org ? |
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| 07:26:49 | <olligobber> | I guess someone messed up |
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| 07:49:53 | <guest316`> | how to break inside fmap? fmap (+1) [1,2,3,5,7] how to let it run on element 3 then exit? |
| 07:50:37 | <guest316`> | not apply (+1) on whole list element |
| 07:50:44 | <opqdonut> | there is no way to do that |
| 07:50:56 | <guest316`> | opqdonut: but callCC can earlier exit |
| 07:51:24 | <opqdonut> | consider something like `fmap even :: [Int] -> [Bool]`. if you stop half way, you'd have a mix of Ints and Bools in the list, which wouldn't type |
| 07:51:40 | <guest316`> | in other languages, recursion or iteration, we can use `return` to break the loop |
| 07:51:59 | <opqdonut> | yeah you can write a recursive function that only increments the list until it sees a 3 |
| 07:52:07 | <opqdonut> | but you _can't do it via fmap_ |
| 07:52:22 | <opqdonut> | you can deduce this from the type of fmap |
| 07:53:34 | <SIben> | fmap (\x -> case x of 3 -> 4 ; _ -> x) [1, 2, 3, 5, 7] |
| 07:54:04 | <SIben> | If that is what you mean by "element 3" |
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| 07:54:06 | <guest316`> | SIben: but this still work on 3 5 7 |
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| 07:54:38 | <SIben> | guest316`: what do you mean by "work"? |
| 07:54:52 | <guest316`> | SIben: (+1) apply on 3 5 7 |
| 07:54:58 | <guest316`> | my english is not good |
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| 07:55:01 | <SIben> | guest316`: no |
| 07:55:19 | <SIben> | Well, the function is run, but it is identity on [1, 2, 5, 7] |
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| 07:55:51 | <SIben> | (but maybe I am interpreting the question wrong :)) |
| 07:56:00 | <guest316`> | fmap f [1,2,3,5,7] = [1,2,3] |
| 07:56:16 | <guest316`> | once meet 3, just break and exit |
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| 07:56:59 | <SIben> | Oh – OK, that is not what I understood from the question. My bad, thanks for explaining guest316` :) |
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| 08:00:13 | <guest316`> | with callCC we can do that? |
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| 08:01:37 | <opqdonut> | not directly, no, though if you use traverse in the Cont monad I think you could abort the whole "fmap" if you meet a certain element |
| 08:02:07 | <opqdonut> | in case it helps, here's a recursive function that does the thing: |
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| 08:02:59 | <guest316`> | fine |
| 08:03:20 | <opqdonut> | > let applyUntil _ _ [] = []; applyUntil f x (y:ys) | x == y = y:ys | otherwise = f y : applyUntil f x ys in applyUntil (+1) 3 [0,1,0,3,7,9] |
| 08:03:22 | <lambdabot> | [1,2,1,3,7,9] |
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| 08:03:27 | <guest316`> | I meet this issue in Kotlin too, so I wonder how haskell would handle it |
| 08:03:46 | <guest316`> | but kotlin doesn't have TCO, so recursion ... |
| 08:04:30 | <guest316`> | so many languages don't support TCO, only haskell and scheme support it |
| 08:05:11 | <opqdonut> | > let (pre,suf) = break (==3) [0,1,0,3,7,9] in map (+1) pre ++ suf -- real haskell code might do something like this instead of implementing applyUntil |
| 08:05:13 | <lambdabot> | [1,2,1,3,7,9] |
| 08:05:42 | <xsperry> | another option, write takeUntil :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a], which would be the same as takeWhile, but would include the first matching element, and then do map (+1) (takeUntil (/=3) list) |
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| 08:13:44 | <shad0w_> | sorry, disconnected |
| 08:13:52 | <shad0w_> | whatsup with gitlab.haskell.org ? |
| 08:14:09 | <opqdonut> | I'd say it seems down and not up |
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| 08:14:46 | <shad0w_> | opqdonut: that seems right and not wrong. |
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| 08:21:53 | hackage | signable 0.4 - Deterministic serialisation and signatures with proto-lens support https://hackage.haskell.org/package/signable-0.4 (coingaming) |
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| 08:27:18 | <tomsmeding> | shad0w_: see this thread https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/ghc-devs/2021-March/019683.html ; apparently the upgrade was harder than expected? |
| 08:27:41 | <Uniaika> | full disks |
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| 08:27:51 | <tomsmeding> | .cabal too large |
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| 08:28:23 | <shad0w_> | i see. |
| 08:28:29 | <shad0w_> | thanks for the response guys. |
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| 08:35:07 | <tomsmeding> | shad0w_: the story continues https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/ghc-devs/2021-March/019686.html |
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| 08:35:52 | <shad0w_> | these things happen. *shrugs* |
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| 08:37:13 | <shad0w_> | tomsmeding: maybe we can have something like https://www.githubstatus.com/ |
| 08:37:49 | <tomsmeding> | shad0w_: would that dashboard also be lazy? |
| 08:37:52 | <tomsmeding> | or would it be functional |
| 08:38:12 | <shad0w_> | i am lazy and functional |
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| 09:31:23 | <kuribas> | why is fail throwing an IO exception even though I have a custom MonadFail instance for my class? |
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| 09:33:28 | <merijn> | Because you're not using that instance? :p |
| 09:34:26 | <kuribas> | yes I am |
| 09:34:56 | <merijn> | GHC clearly disagrees |
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| 09:35:09 | <merijn> | Also "my class" <- you mean type/monad, yes? |
| 09:36:30 | <kuribas> | ah I need to import Control.Monad.Fail and hide the other fail. |
| 09:36:40 | <kuribas> | nice way to create confusion. |
| 09:38:01 | <merijn> | Depends on wich GHC |
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| 09:38:21 | <merijn> | That's only true on pre-MonadFail GHCs |
| 09:38:26 | <kuribas> | 8.6.5 |
| 09:38:36 | <merijn> | You need -XMonadFailDesugaring on older GHC |
| 09:38:55 | <kuribas> | what does that do? |
| 09:39:13 | <merijn> | Actually use MonadFail(fail) instead of Monad(fail) |
| 09:39:30 | <merijn> | kuribas: fail isn't removed from Monad in 8.6.5 |
| 09:40:07 | <kuribas> | yeah, that's what I did |
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| 09:45:59 | <merijn> | kuribas: What is "what you did"? |
| 09:46:06 | <kuribas> | use MonadFail(fail) |
| 09:46:15 | <merijn> | Do desugaring doesn't use that |
| 09:46:18 | <kuribas> | I mean I do it now, and it works. |
| 09:46:26 | <merijn> | Ah, ok :) |
| 09:46:28 | <kuribas> | ah right. |
| 09:46:33 | <kuribas> | this was an explicit fail. |
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| 10:09:53 | hackage | kind-generics-th 0.2.2.2 - Template Haskell support for generating `GenericK` instances https://hackage.haskell.org/package/kind-generics-th-0.2.2.2 (AlejandroSerrano) |
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| 10:22:42 | <kinsho> | \part |
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| 10:27:23 | hackage | forsyde-shallow 3.5.0.0 - ForSyDe's Haskell-embedded Domain Specific Language. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/forsyde-shallow-3.5.0.0 (ingo) |
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| 10:39:22 | <day> | what is the currently recommended way to install haskell on archlinux? |
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| 10:40:08 | <yushyin> | day: ghcup works fine |
| 10:41:15 | <day> | yes i think that's what i used the last time. but haskell.org recommends 'pacman -S ghc cabal-install happy alex haskell-haddock-library' thus i thought that maybe things turned greener :D |
| 10:42:50 | <joel135> | Things were still bleak a couple of months ago. |
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| 10:43:28 | <joel135> | I am running all Haskell through stack now. |
| 10:43:39 | <day> | the drama is kind of hilarious though ngl |
| 10:44:15 | <__monty__> | The Arch maintainers' handling of haskell infra has pretty permanently undermined my confidence in their ability to communicate and deal with upstream anything tbh. |
| 10:44:44 | <joel135> | I don't remember if I used ghcup to make that work. But whatever I did should be in my channel logs so I could find it it you want. |
| 10:44:53 | hackage | postgresql-placeholder-converter 0.2.0.0 - Converter for question mark style and dollar sign style of PostgreSQL SQL. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/postgresql-placeholder-converter-0.2.0.0 (kakkun61) |
| 10:44:55 | <day> | eh i think it turned into something personal at some point and now it's impossible to resolve |
| 10:45:25 | <day> | joel135: it's fine i will just use ghcup |
| 10:45:29 | <joel135> | Ok |
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| 10:49:50 | <yushyin> | day: you will face a lot of opposition here regarding arch linux, i still recommend ghcup because it also simplifies things like installing and managing multiple ghc versions compared to packages from the linux distribution. |
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| 10:51:13 | <__monty__> | I don't see why it should be personal. The Arch maintainers decided everything should be dynamically linked for some reason. GHC defaults to statically linking most things because a strong reliance on inlining etc. makes dynamic linking impractical/deleterious. Rather than either distributing libraries compatible with that default or changing the default setting GHC installs with, they simply choose to |
| 10:51:19 | <__monty__> | make it hard to start using GHC on Arch. It's as if they have a vendetta against Haskell more than anything. |
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| 10:53:21 | <tomsmeding> | I'm happily using Arch and ghcup :) |
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| 10:55:14 | <dramforever> | Literally every single person that has anything to do with Arch insist on telling me the benefits of dynamically linking libraries |
| 10:55:28 | <dramforever> | *every single person I've met |
| 10:55:36 | <dramforever> | 'This literally does not work' does not seem like an effective objection |
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| 10:56:00 | <__monty__> | It seems to me they've subscribed to glibc's party line for some reason. |
| 10:56:15 | <dramforever> | I'm starting to feel like stop supporting dynamic linking in GHC 10 or something might be the only remaining option :( |
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| 10:56:52 | <__monty__> | That'd be unfortunate. |
| 10:56:59 | <dramforever> | I am *perfectly* okay with the distros distributing their things their way |
| 10:57:06 | <dramforever> | I just can't stand the wrong reasons |
| 10:57:36 | <yushyin> | ghc's support for dynamic linking is mediocre anyways |
| 10:57:49 | <__monty__> | I do want to highlight that generally Arch *users* are great. They have a tendency to run unstable software and report bugs. |
| 10:58:27 | <dramforever> | Arch maintainers are great too |
| 10:58:50 | <dramforever> | I admire like 99%+ of their work |
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| 10:59:24 | <dramforever> | yushyin: I'd put it this way: GHC technically supports dynamic linking |
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| 11:00:30 | <yushyin> | true :D |
| 11:00:37 | <dramforever> | I hope I'm not spreading any hate here, all the Arch users and maintainers I've met are amazing people, including those who I complained about |
| 11:01:14 | <dramforever> | I want to be clear that however emotional, I do intend it to be a technical discussion about the ways GHC the program and Haskell the ecosystem works |
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| 11:01:40 | <dramforever> | however emotional I accidentally get, or whatever, not sure how to put this |
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| 11:02:17 | <yushyin> | for now you cannot even set -dynamic as the default in a global config file anymore, https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/6505 makes it even more stressful to use arch linux's haskell packages |
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| 11:04:13 | <dramforever> | For Haskell *development* just stay away from Arch Haskell packages. Actually, for most cases, as a rule of thumb for *any* development just stay away from *any* Linux distro packages. |
| 11:04:31 | <dramforever> | (If you'd like to disagree, you clearly know enough to ignore my rule of thumb.) |
| 11:05:34 | <__monty__> | Gentoo and NixOS don't have this problem : ) Even on Debian you might want to use their packages because a significant install base is going to be using those versions anyway. |
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| 11:07:46 | <dramforever> | If you're using Gentoo and NixOS I deserve being ignored |
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| 11:08:14 | <dramforever> | Though, not sure about Gentoo, but even in the case NixOS I'd recommend trying some non-distro stuff like haskell.nix |
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| 11:08:46 | <__monty__> | +1 |
| 11:08:51 | <dramforever> | My main gripe about the distro libraries is that they are often built for the programs included in the distro |
| 11:09:13 | <dramforever> | e.g. Having pandoc means including pandoc dependencies |
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| 11:09:54 | <yushyin> | as a maintainer i wouldn't even bother maintaining haskell packages. build some well known haskell packages (pandoc,shellcheck) statically, ignore libraries and recommend ghc/stack/nix for development |
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| 11:10:03 | <dramforever> | Developing on them, and one day you'll get a missing dependency, the next day you'll get an outdated library, and the next you'll be missing a dependency, whose dependency is newer than that in the distro and conflicts with something |
| 11:10:25 | <__monty__> | It's less of an issue in source-based distros. NixOS makes all of hackage available for example. |
| 11:10:27 | <dramforever> | yushyin: Not being able to build a package in a distro with your distro's packages sound... a bit odd :( |
| 11:10:40 | <dramforever> | __monty__: They still get outdated easily :( |
| 11:11:35 | <__monty__> | Potato, tomato, outdated, stable. |
| 11:12:05 | <dramforever> | As if nixpkgs haskell packages are, by any standard, stable |
| 11:12:24 | <__monty__> | Most of them derive from stackage LTS. |
| 11:12:36 | <dramforever> | That's true |
| 11:12:50 | <dramforever> | I guess somehow I just keep using non-stackage stuff :P |
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| 11:13:24 | <yushyin> | dramforever: yes it's odd indeed ^^ |
| 11:13:38 | <dramforever> | I guess I don't get to complain about a set of stuff being unstable if it's literally the entire hackage |
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| 11:16:28 | <jonn> | Dear all, I want to add a flag to my own project for conditional compilation. Sadly, I'm yet to switch to cabal v2 and am still using stackage. How do I do that without manually patching .cabal file (which I suppose is generated from packages.yaml + stack.yaml?) |
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| 11:18:14 | <[exa]> | jonn: I'm afraid switching to cabal v2 might be easier |
| 11:18:36 | <dramforever> | You don't have to use package.yaml for using stack. If you don't have a package.yaml, that .cabal file will be used. |
| 11:18:48 | <opqdonut> | yeah, I use stack.yaml + myproj.cabal |
| 11:18:57 | <dramforever> | And I think hpack (package.yaml thing) and stack support flags too? |
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| 11:19:28 | <jonn> | It does, but it only seem to support flags for dependencies, not the project apps / libs. |
| 11:20:01 | <jonn> | At least, that's what I gathered from reading the docs and observations... |
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| 11:20:15 | <day> | __monty__: ive seen nixOS mentionings pop up more and more. maybe i'll give it a try, but I kind of like the rolling release style |
| 11:20:17 | <dramforever> | By 'it' do you mean hpack or stack? |
| 11:20:27 | <jonn> | stack, whilst reading package.yaml |
| 11:20:49 | <__monty__> | day: NixOS unstable is a rolling release. |
| 11:20:59 | <day> | oh |
| 11:21:07 | <jonn> | Ok, so I'll try to edit .cabal file and hope that stack shan't regenerate it. |
| 11:21:23 | <dramforever> | If you delete package.yaml it will, but how will that help? |
| 11:21:25 | <__monty__> | There's minimal checks ensuring the channel builds which can hold up channel bumps. |
| 11:21:35 | <dramforever> | Oh no https://github.com/sol/hpack#flags |
| 11:21:44 | <dramforever> | This is some confusing documentation |
| 11:21:59 | <dramforever> | jonn: But from what I gather, you *can* specify flags in package.yaml |
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| 11:23:11 | <__monty__> | day: Caveat emptor though, UX isn't great yet, I wouldn't want to go back though : ) |
| 11:23:19 | <dramforever> | jonn: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/e5ounghg |
| 11:24:05 | <dramforever> | Yeah that's why I was asking, you keep mentioning stack not supporting flags and mention package.yaml vs *.cabal, but they are kind of two separate things |
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| 11:24:09 | <jonn> | fooflagthigy is the name of the project, right? |
| 11:24:15 | <day> | __monty__: UX? |
| 11:24:28 | <dramforever> | jonn: This is package.yaml, fooflagthingy is the name of the flag |
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| 11:24:48 | <dramforever> | In stack.yaml it's like this https://docs.haskellstack.org/en/stable/yaml_configuration/#flags |
| 11:25:07 | <dramforever> | I'm going to guess that using the name for your local package will make it apply to your local package |
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| 11:25:44 | <jonn> | Thing is that I tried, but maybe I had a typo or something. |
| 11:25:46 | <__monty__> | day: User experience, the various commands don't have a very coherent interface yet and documentation isn't amazing yet. |
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| 11:26:28 | <dramforever> | jonn: oh :( |
| 11:26:34 | <day> | ah. i was thinking ui |
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| 11:27:01 | <dramforever> | __monty__: That seems to be worked on. Maybe day should check back in like half a year or a year or something? |
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| 11:27:27 | <jonn> | Now that I think about it, you *must* be right... `# Override default flag values for local packages and` |
| 11:27:30 | <day> | __monty__: but isnt the only notable difference the package manager? |
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| 11:27:53 | <jonn> | I assumed that stack doesn't mean "currently developed project" as "a local package" (sorry, hpack*) |
| 11:28:01 | <jonn> | But maybe it does... |
| 11:28:16 | <dramforever> | If you use NixOS you also get a really different system configuration thing |
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| 11:28:27 | <__monty__> | If you're interested you can check it out now. Even in the comfort of your current distro by simply installing Nix the package manager. If you're expecting to distro-hop to NixOS and have a smooth experience, you're in for a cold shower. |
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| 11:29:31 | <__monty__> | day: The package manager is usable everywhere. The special thing about NixOS is declarative system configuration through NixOS modules (kind of a bad name but hysterical raisins). |
| 11:29:45 | <dramforever> | jonn: Yeah, the reason you need to tell the two apart is because if you don't like hpack, you can just delete package.yaml and edit *.cabal, as mentioned earlier |
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| 11:32:47 | <jonn> | Nice |
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| 11:51:29 | <jonn> | Ok, so I managed to add a flag, but for some reason `stack test --test-arguments '--num-threads 1' --flag do-auth:testdb` doesn't cause preprocessor to follow the intended #ifdef branch. |
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| 11:52:42 | <jonn> | I have `#ifdef testdb \n (code) \n #else \n (code) \n #endif` in my .hs file in the _library_. What are the approaches to debug? |
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| 11:53:45 | <dramforever> | Umm, how did you add that flag to your *.cabal or package.yaml |
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| 11:54:18 | <jonn> | package.yaml, and I know it works because when I run with `--flag do-auth:nonexflag`, it complaints |
| 11:56:12 | <dramforever> | Yeah but have you added any conditionals or something |
| 11:57:01 | <dramforever> | I think you'd need to add a condition to add an option to ghc-options |
| 11:57:16 | <dramforever> | the flags don't automatically become CPP macros |
| 11:57:59 | <jonn> | Oh! |
| 11:58:09 | <jonn> | I'll look into it. |
| 11:58:17 | <dramforever> | this or something https://paste.tomsmeding.com/e8LKNfUE |
| 11:59:11 | <jonn> | (Haskell is so huge, one can avoid certain features and be productive with it for over ten years haha) |
| 11:59:27 | <jonn> | Ty for your help! |
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| 12:01:02 | <dramforever> | you're welcome :) |
| 12:01:47 | <jonn> | `FilePath "/home/sweater/.doauth/v1db.test"` It works! |
| 12:02:23 | hackage | HsOpenSSL 0.11.6 - Partial OpenSSL binding for Haskell https://hackage.haskell.org/package/HsOpenSSL-0.11.6 (VladimirShabanov) |
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| 12:07:45 | tomsmeding | was trying to figure out the minimal code to reproduce a type family reduction loop in ghc that I got, before I figured out that the problem occurred only using 'stack build', not when using ghc directly; perhaps I should upgrade from 8.8.4 to 8.10.4 |
| 12:09:06 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: I just skipped 8.8 entirely :p |
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| 12:20:09 | <Franciman> | another case of stack doing mistakes |
| 12:20:12 | <Franciman> | thank you fpcomplete |
| 12:21:02 | <jackdk> | Is anyone here familiar with the STG paper at https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/1992/04/spineless-tagless-gmachine.pdf ? Section 4.2 says that it's safe to mark every lambda as non-updateable, but then when they specify the abstract machine, Rule 15 seems to be the only one for updateable closures, and it requires an empty arglist. I am confused. |
| 12:21:46 | <geekosaur> | I'm not fond of stack, but doubt it's somehow reaching into ghc and breaking type families |
| 12:22:29 | <geekosaur> | if anything it's been configured (possibly locally, possibly just bad timing) to default to a resolver with a buggy ghc. which happens |
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| 12:24:20 | <merijn> | jackdk: Where is rule 15? |
| 12:26:22 | <merijn> | jackdk: At a quick glance your two statements seem in harmony, though? |
| 12:27:04 | <merijn> | jackdk: A lambda with an empty argument list can have its result evaluated, so there isn't really a lambda anymore? |
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| 12:27:47 | <merijn> | jackdk: Also, don't break your head to much over the function call handling in the STG paper, since it's obsoleted anyway :p |
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| 12:28:03 | <jackdk> | merijn: in my copy of the paper (v2.5), p39 |
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| 12:28:08 | <merijn> | jackdk: That's discussed in "Making a fast curry: push/enter vs. eval/apply for higher-order languages" |
| 12:28:26 | <merijn> | jackdk: And I think GHC might have even obsoleted the fast curry paper? |
| 12:29:34 | <jackdk> | merijn: sorry, error in my original message. 4.2 contains "It is clearly safe to set the update flag of every lambda-form to `u`" i.e. updatable |
| 12:30:23 | <jackdk> | but if you have lambda-forms that are what it calls "manifest functions", that doesn't work if the only machine rule applies to updateable closures with no explicit args |
| 12:32:19 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur: it was the ghc version, 8.8.4 just had issues :p |
| 12:32:28 | <tomsmeding> | nothing to do with stack |
| 12:33:03 | <merijn> | jackdk: It's been too long ago that I looked at it, so no clue |
| 12:33:12 | <tomsmeding> | it had something to do with injective type families, but I didn't get so far as to find out what the actual problem was |
| 12:33:40 | <jackdk> | merijn: thank you anyway. Fast curry is next on the list, but I wanna get my head around how the C impl of STG from the paper does the basic stuff. |
| 12:34:16 | <merijn> | Dark magic :p |
| 12:34:19 | <jackdk> | what I think might be happening is a small oversight in the rules because "manifest functions" (lambdas with non-empty arglist) are always safe to set as non-updateable |
| 12:34:44 | <merijn> | Pretty sure the C proposed in the STG paper relies on the evil mangler |
| 12:34:47 | <jackdk> | (p24). If you apply this rule, then you need never have a rule for updatable lambdas with non-null arglist |
| 12:35:02 | <jackdk> | all I know about the evil mangler is that it used perl |
| 12:36:46 | tomsmeding | :o |
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| 12:37:17 | <merijn> | jackdk: C doesn't let you actually do the kinda code you want, so GHC would first produce C, compile it, then use the evil mangler to postprocess the (binary, I believe?) output to fix the calling convention to match what GHC actually wants ;) |
| 12:37:49 | <merijn> | "But that's awful!!!!" <- well, yes, that's why it's the *evil* mangler |
| 12:38:03 | <jackdk> | merijn: yeah, that's pretty evil. however, the stg paper makes a pretty strong claim about being implementable using portable C constructs |
| 12:38:24 | <merijn> | "C" ;) |
| 12:38:27 | <mouseghost> | merijn, are you saying that clowns are bad ;p? |
| 12:38:29 | <geekosaur> | postprocessed assembly language |
| 12:38:46 | <mouseghost> | geekosaur, thats called llvm ir haah |
| 12:38:54 | <merijn> | jackdk: There's a reason C-- was invented (and then promptly died due to LLVM winning) |
| 12:38:55 | <geekosaur> | and stg can be implemented in portable C, it's just slow |
| 12:39:06 | <geekosaur> | mouseghost, evil mangler predated llvm |
| 12:39:15 | <mouseghost> | oh its an actual thing? |
| 12:39:18 | <merijn> | mouseghost: Yes |
| 12:39:26 | <mouseghost> | oh o___o |
| 12:39:27 | <merijn> | mouseghost: It literally did what I just said |
| 12:39:40 | <mouseghost> | i thought it was just an invented name |
| 12:39:44 | <merijn> | For several years of GHC's existence until the native backend became default |
| 12:40:13 | <merijn> | I'd link you to the GHC wiki about it, but GHC's gitlab is, eh...taking a break, it seems |
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| 12:40:43 | <merijn> | mouseghost: http://www.macs.hw.ac.uk/~hwloidl/hackspace/ghc-7.4-eden/docs/comm/the-beast/mangler.html |
| 12:40:48 | <mouseghost> | i have noticed that as well :D |
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| 12:41:15 | <merijn> | -fvia-C is deprecated (and, I don't think it's enabled in production GHC builds) |
| 12:41:31 | <geekosaur> | right |
| 12:41:44 | <mouseghost> | o-o |
| 12:41:57 | <merijn> | Ah, it worked on the assembly, not binary output |
| 12:42:02 | <merijn> | *slightly* more sane |
| 12:42:10 | <geekosaur> | only slightly |
| 12:42:10 | <jackdk> | ever-so-slightly less evil |
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| 12:43:05 | <jackdk> | anyway, I'm going to sleep on tonight's win, then look at how the paper does things in C, then probably look at the fast curry paper. Anything else I should look at? |
| 12:43:06 | geekosaur | read through the mangler once, it was mostly rewriting function preambles/postambles from C conventions to STG |
| 12:43:29 | <merijn> | Not sure when NCG became the default for GHC? I think late 6.x or early 7x? |
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| 12:44:20 | <merijn> | Or was it earlier? |
| 12:44:32 | <geekosaur> | don't recall |
| 12:44:53 | <mouseghost> | goodnight jackdk |
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| 12:48:23 | <Philonous> | I have a locally let-bound polymorphic function that gets monomorphised because of (implied) -XNoLetGeneralization. Giving the binding an explicitly polymorphic type signature should fix that, shouldn't it? |
| 12:48:56 | <geekosaur> | merijn, apparently 6.8.1 made -fasm the default |
| 12:48:57 | <Philonous> | Errr, I meant -XMonoLocalBinds |
| 12:50:14 | <geekosaur> | Philonous, yes, an explicit type signature should override -XMonoLocalBinds |
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| 12:50:54 | <Philonous> | Strange, because I'm getting type errors that strongly point towards the function be monomorphised, inlining the definition also fixes the problem |
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| 13:08:42 | <tomsmeding> | Philonous: are you perhaps using type variables in that explicit type signature that come from some local scope? |
| 13:08:49 | <tomsmeding> | i.e. would ScopedTypeVariables help |
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| 13:27:23 | <mikoto-chan> | I still don't understand how everything is installed locally with stack and cabal |
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| 13:27:41 | <mikoto-chan> | Since I currently need hident but installing it per project is gonna be a serious waste of disk space |
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| 13:27:54 | <mikoto-chan> | hindent* |
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| 13:28:33 | <mikoto-chan> | https://stackoverflow.com/questions/49504206/recommended-approach-to-use-stack-as-global-package-manager |
| 13:28:37 | <mikoto-chan> | My bad, found the answer |
| 13:28:54 | <merijn> | I mean, just "cabal install hindent" should work? |
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| 13:39:22 | <Philonous> | tomsmeding, No, the type is »aggTemplates :: forall a. SqlExpr (Value a) -> SqlExpr (Value [a])«, it doesn't have free variables |
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| 14:27:44 | <mikoto-chan> | merijn: That's cool and all but stack keeps running out of memory while compiling -_- |
| 14:28:06 | <mikoto-chan> | I only have 4GB atm and don't really see myself buying more with the current prices |
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| 14:28:32 | <merijn> | I don't really use stack, so can't help you there |
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| 14:28:50 | <mikoto-chan> | Wait |
| 14:28:52 | <merijn> | mikoto-chan: 4GB should be fine, though. Try disabling parallel builds in stack? |
| 14:28:56 | <mikoto-chan> | Nvm, you can just do -j1 |
| 14:29:03 | <mikoto-chan> | Yea it automatically does -j3 I guess |
| 14:29:03 | <merijn> | :D |
| 14:29:22 | <merijn> | Yeah, 1 GHC on 4GB should be fine, but 3 gets...heavy :p |
| 14:29:38 | <mikoto-chan> | If I run out of memory again I'm switching to Lisp |
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| 14:40:39 | <curiousgay> | opengl package is not meant to be used by someone (me) who doesn't have any experience with opengl? |
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| 14:41:23 | hackage | typenums 0.1.3 - Type level numbers using existing Nat functionality https://hackage.haskell.org/package/typenums-0.1.3 (AdituV) |
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| 14:47:26 | <merijn> | curiousgay: It's mean to provide access to OpenGL. Which is not a particularly high level nor beginner friendly API, no |
| 14:48:25 | <Lycurgus> | nor is any real GUI |
| 14:48:25 | <curiousgay> | :( |
| 14:48:54 | <Lycurgus> | it's just busy stuff though and a lil bit of you had to be there |
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| 14:50:02 | <dhruvasagar> | Hey guys, if anybody has the time, could you look into this yaml parser that I am in the process of building https://gist.github.com/dhruvasagar/92bfa5ad92c70f31065445a303da7979. I am struggling a little bit getting manyByIndent right and use it for parsing yamlArray / yamlObject. |
| 14:50:05 | <merijn> | curiousgay: otoh, the advantage of being "just opengl" is that you can pretty much grab any OpenGL book from a different language and use that, since it's "just opengl" :) |
| 14:50:09 | <Lycurgus> | except smalltalk igess |
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| 14:50:37 | <merijn> | curiousgay: Like, if you know C or something, just grab a C opengl book to learn opengl and done :p |
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| 14:51:18 | <curiousgay> | huh, I thought opengl (as a package) is different from openglraw (1:1 correspondence to ugly C API) |
| 14:52:29 | <Lycurgus> | also smalltalk can but generally doesn't act as bottomost hardware interface |
| 14:52:38 | <merijn> | curiousgay: opengl is *slightly* higher level, in that it hides the poitner stuff |
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| 14:53:40 | curiousgay | thinking |
| 14:53:44 | <merijn> | curiousgay: But it's not really a high level API. There was a nice-ish higher level rendering library, but I can't remember the name |
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| 14:54:34 | <merijn> | curiousgay: For something higher level you'd want something like SDL |
| 14:54:43 | <curiousgay> | then I need to do something in Haskell that's not related to graphics at all... |
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| 14:55:03 | <dolio> | It will be somewhat better than C, probably. Like, it has `with...` stuff instead of you having to remember to call `...Begin` and `...End` correctly. |
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| 14:56:20 | <curiousgay> | merijn: hm, actually there's a whole tutorial that uses SDL https://github.com/madjestic/Haskell-OpenGL-Tutorial |
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| 14:56:35 | <dolio> | But that's just an example of C making it difficult to do even the most basic control flow abstraction. |
| 14:56:58 | <dhruvasagar> | anybody ? any thoughts / clues / hints ? |
| 14:57:21 | <curiousgay> | ah, that tutorial uses not only SDL, I misread the README |
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| 14:58:56 | <Lycurgus> | dhruvasagar, your query may work better if you are more specific |
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| 15:00:02 | <dhruvasagar> | Lycurgus: well I am doing this as a learning exercise, my code is largely borrowed from haskell-json a parser build by tsoding for json. The main thing I am kinda struggling with is building a nice indent sensitive parser |
| 15:00:42 | <merijn> | dhruvasagar: Because building indent sensitive parser is *hard* :) |
| 15:01:02 | <dhruvasagar> | merijn: even more reason to try to do it :) |
| 15:01:56 | <curiousgay> | merijn: I'll try that tutorial, although it focuses on GLFW instead of SDL |
| 15:02:15 | <curiousgay> | just nice start for learning Haskell and GL lol |
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| 15:02:57 | curiousgay | wants to rewrite IRC client from Tcl/Tk to Haskell |
| 15:03:27 | <merijn> | dhruvasagar: Sure, but that might explain the lack of response :p |
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| 15:03:48 | <dhruvasagar> | merijn: I can tell, this is the fourth time I am trying here |
| 15:03:51 | <merijn> | I built one once years ago that worked "well enough for my examples", but I'll be damned if I remember how :) |
| 15:04:09 | <merijn> | dhruvasagar: You can try the haskell-cafe mailing list |
| 15:04:29 | <merijn> | dhruvasagar: Obscure questions work better of asynchronous medium :) |
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| 15:04:41 | <dhruvasagar> | merijn: thanks, i'll give that a shot too |
| 15:04:54 | <dhruvasagar> | merijn:i've been stuck trying to do this for a couple of weeks now |
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| 15:06:01 | <merijn> | IRC relies on the 3 people knowing an answer actually being online and paying attention when you ask. Mailing lists not so much :) |
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| 15:07:48 | edwardk | wonders what he's doing awake at 8am |
| 15:07:50 | <curiousgay> | merijn: btw, have you tried any widget library in Haskell? I want to rewrite my IRC client from Tcl/Tk because using untyped scripting language is a torture |
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| 15:08:49 | <merijn> | edwardk: Why? I long ago concluded/realised you're secretly an android who doesn't sleep |
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| 15:09:01 | <edwardk> | i usually see this hour from the other side, yes. |
| 15:09:50 | <edwardk> | anyways *beep* *boop* the distributive code is coming along nicely. I'm really rather fond of a trick i was able to use to get generics to derive most of the code in HKD with it |
| 15:10:43 | <edwardk> | in particular if you have a data newtype F2 a b f = F2 (f a) (f b) -- GHC.Generics chokes |
| 15:10:44 | <merijn> | edwardk: On a mission to exterminate the pre 8.6 code? ;) |
| 15:10:51 | <edwardk> | er data |
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| 15:11:43 | <edwardk> | but if you define newtype F1 a f = F1 { runF1 :: f a }; data F2 a b f = F2' (F1 a f) (F1 b f) ? -- then i can derive generic/generic1 and use a pattern synonym to get the old api |
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| 15:11:54 | <edwardk> | not a mission per se |
| 15:12:05 | <edwardk> | just trying to get the codebase for distributive/hkd to be manageable |
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| 15:12:31 | <edwardk> | on the plus side dozens of modules from linear become 4-5 lines long each |
| 15:12:45 | <edwardk> | er i guess closer to 'a dozen' |
| 15:13:28 | <edwardk> | a lot of this stuff is present with slight variation in barbies/vinyl, except not unified with the funny argument order i use here |
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| 15:24:22 | <dmwit> | merijn: I have personally witnessed him sleeping. His real secret is that he's capable of falling asleep midsentence if he decides the conversation has finished being useful. |
| 15:24:33 | <curiousgay> | I have an impression that GLFW abuses Maybe monad |
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| 15:24:58 | <dmwit> | Huh. What kind of behavior constitutes monad abuse? |
| 15:25:21 | <curiousgay> | dmwit: just take a look at this code: https://github.com/madjestic/Haskell-OpenGL-Tutorial/blob/master/tutorial01/Main.hs |
| 15:25:34 | <hewhoislearningh> | hi, can you help me? i cant figure out how to use ask criterion to run a function in a benchmark only a certain amount of times. i found this function in the docs but cant figure out how to use it: |
| 15:25:34 | <hewhoislearningh> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/iaeuHyCz |
| 15:26:35 | <dmwit> | curiousgay: 1. There's no use of the Monad interface on Maybe's in there as far as I can tell. 2. This code looks nice, what's the problem? |
| 15:27:39 | <curiousgay> | dmwit: I mean that API requires from user writing lots of Just |
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| 15:29:40 | <dmwit> | curiousgay: ...is that bad? |
| 15:30:06 | <curiousgay> | yes |
| 15:30:30 | <dmwit> | hmmmm |
| 15:30:43 | <merijn> | You aren't required to write just, you could just handle the error when it happens |
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| 15:31:34 | <dmwit> | merijn: The Maybe's are function arguments, not results. |
| 15:31:42 | <dmwit> | Or maybe I don't understand your advice. |
| 15:31:44 | <merijn> | ah |
| 15:31:56 | <merijn> | dmwit: I think I misunderstood? |
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| 15:33:32 | <dmwit> | hewhoislearningh: I guess you could use Criterion.benchmarkWith to specify an amount of time to spend. I don't think you get to control how many iterations there are. |
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| 15:34:08 | <dmwit> | But if you know about how long you expect it to take you can get close by multiplying by 100 and specifying that as the time limit. ;-) |
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| 15:34:18 | <merijn> | You can in the commandline |
| 15:34:21 | <hewhoislearningh> | dmwit but the documentation says: |
| 15:34:22 | <hewhoislearningh> | toBenchmarkable :: (Int64 -> IO ()) -> Benchmarkable |
| 15:34:22 | <hewhoislearningh> | Construct a Benchmarkable value from an impure action, where the Int64 parameter indicates the number of times to run the action. |
| 15:34:24 | <merijn> | but not in the benchmark definition |
| 15:34:32 | <dmwit> | hewhoislearningh: I know. That doesn't mean what you think it means. |
| 15:34:47 | <dmwit> | hewhoislearningh: What that says is that the criterion machinery will pass *you* an argument telling you how many times it wants you to run. |
| 15:35:00 | <hewhoislearningh> | ah ok, thanks |
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| 15:38:35 | <day> | http://sprunge.us/ZgTTq3 when i run this hackage.haskell.org example code on a decently large xlsx file it takes 13seconds to finish :D is there anything glaringly broken in that example? |
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| 15:38:53 | <day> | with decently large i mean ~4MB |
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| 15:39:15 | <merijn> | Yes, no, maybe, who knows? |
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| 15:43:36 | <c_wraith> | if that's taking 13 seconds, look into Codec.Xlsx. It's not a library I've heard of before, and it's the only thing doing anything interesting |
| 15:46:44 | <c_wraith> | I will say that the combination of ^? and ending the lens with _Just is funny. |
| 15:46:52 | <c_wraith> | But you clearly got that from the docs |
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| 15:47:45 | curiousgay | sees 19M size of compiled executable |
| 15:47:55 | <curiousgay> | wow, it must have lots of debug information |
| 15:48:32 | <merijn> | curiousgay: --enable-split-sections and don't forget to run "strip" |
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| 15:48:53 | <merijn> | split sections can give massive shrinks |
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| 15:55:17 | <c_wraith> | day: after reading through a bit of the xlsx package, I'm willing to bet that runtime is almost entirely in the parser. The data structures it parses to should be very fast to use for lookups - once they're fully evaluated |
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| 15:57:25 | <c_wraith> | day: the package also exports a function `toXlsxFast' that might be worth testing with. |
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| 16:10:49 | <mikoto-chan> | Is debugging the only use of Maybe? I never understood Maybe, Just and Nothing tbh |
| 16:12:01 | <hololeap> | mikoto-chan: Maybe encodes the concept of partial functions |
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| 16:12:36 | <hololeap> | (a -> Maybe b) means that for any 'a', there is _possibly_ a corresponding 'b' |
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| 16:13:11 | <hololeap> | that's it |
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| 16:14:25 | <mikoto-chan> | hololeap: Any language with a similar "wrapper"? |
| 16:14:37 | <mikoto-chan> | functionality or whatever you want to call it |
| 16:14:45 | <hololeap> | lots of languages have null or nil |
| 16:14:56 | <hololeap> | so every type in those languages has an implicit Maybe |
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| 16:15:12 | <yushyin> | mikoto-chan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Option_type |
| 16:15:47 | <yushyin> | ocaml,f#,rust etc. |
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| 16:16:53 | <hololeap> | honestly, i wouldn't consider Maybe to be any good for debugging. it tells you literally Nothing |
| 16:18:26 | <yushyin> | pun intended? :) |
| 16:18:36 | <hololeap> | very much so :) |
| 16:19:14 | <mikoto-chan> | yushyin: ah thanks |
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| 16:20:23 | hackage | hexpat-streamparser 0.1.1 - https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hexpat-streamparser-0.1.1 (KristofBastiaensen) |
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| 16:23:06 | <hololeap> | it might be worth pointing out that (Maybe a) encodes the exact same amount of information as (Either () a). you can see that it has the worst error type for encoding information: () aka unit |
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| 16:24:34 | <hololeap> | point is, Either will be much better for debugging than Maybe |
| 16:24:47 | <hololeap> | if you give it some error type that can relay information |
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| 16:26:59 | <hololeap> | although i wouldn't really call that debugging, either... |
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| 16:32:32 | <tapas> | ocharles: very close to approving your HPC pr :) |
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| 16:52:48 | <dexterfoo> | How can I add "HasCallStack" constraint to a lambda expression? |
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| 16:57:56 | <geekosaur> | -XScopedTypeVariables and \(a :: HasCallStack => whateverTypeHere) -> ? (may not work if it has multiple parameters) |
| 16:58:10 | <geekosaur> | probably easier to use let to name it instead of using a lambda |
| 16:59:40 | <geekosaur> | hm, actually I'm not sure lambdas even support implicit variables which HasCallStack uses behind the scenes |
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| 17:00:25 | <geekosaur> | even if they do you probably have to pass it explicitly which means digging through the implementation of CallStack. again, probably easier to just use a let |
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| 17:52:23 | hackage | hedgehog-classes 0.2.5.2 - Hedgehog will eat your typeclass bugs https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hedgehog-classes-0.2.5.2 (chessai) |
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| 17:59:26 | <cjay> | does someone happen to know why GHC.Exts.proxy# in GHC 8.8 has two type parameters, but in 8.10 (and 9.0) only has one? In both cases, the type signature in the source is the same: proxy# :: Proxy# a |
| 17:59:39 | <cjay> | in 8.10, the kind parameter is marked as inferred, as it shoud be: proxy# :: forall {k} (a :: k). Proxy# a |
| 17:59:44 | <cjay> | in 8.8, it is not. |
| 18:00:19 | <cjay> | (when asking in ghci, with -fprint-explicit-foralls and :type +v) |
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| 18:01:03 | <cjay> | when using visible type application, this makes the two GHC versions incompatible |
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| 18:01:51 | <cjay> | it is not the breaking change for TypeApplications that is mentioned in the 8.10.1 release notes, that one only affects the order, not the inferred-ness |
| 18:04:04 | <cjay> | (also, it doesn't help at all that Haddock seems to never use the {}, and that GHC 8.8 seems to not print the {} without -fprint-explicit-foralls, which I suppose is a bug, because 9.0 always prints the {}, but that is another story) |
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| 18:24:45 | <cjay> | hmm, I suppose it's related to https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/commit/012257c15f584069500af2953ab70856f9a1470e |
| 18:25:18 | <cjay> | so, is the type signature of proxy# from the source file completely ignored by GHC because it's a builtin? |
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| 18:30:23 | hackage | gemini-server 0.3.0.0 - A lightweight server for the Gemini protocol https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gemini-server-0.3.0.0 (fgaz) |
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| 18:34:34 | <slack1256> | For testing memory usage, is there a library like `criterion`? |
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| 18:40:28 | <Uniaika> | hmm, not sure |
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| 18:58:23 | hackage | skylighting-core 0.10.5 - syntax highlighting library https://hackage.haskell.org/package/skylighting-core-0.10.5 (JohnMacFarlane) |
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| 18:59:23 | hackage | skylighting 0.10.5 - syntax highlighting library https://hackage.haskell.org/package/skylighting-0.10.5 (JohnMacFarlane) |
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| 19:04:21 | <iphy> | is there a more elegant way to do this? https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/jmAdr9kt/getVarInt.hs |
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| 19:07:09 | <Uniaika> | iphy: you're trying to go from Integral to Word8 to Word32? |
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| 19:07:42 | <iphy> | I'm using fromIntegral :: Word8 -> Word32 |
| 19:08:32 | <iphy> | that's probably fine, because I need to shift the Word8 bytes into the right position in the resulting Word32 |
| 19:08:39 | <iphy> | I'm just not happy with how much code this takes |
| 19:09:33 | <Uniaika> | this may not be the most beautiful code ever but I think it does the job |
| 19:09:39 | <Uniaika> | don't overthink it |
| 19:10:13 | <iphy> | the code is correct, but I do like to understand whether things can be done in a better way |
| 19:10:18 | <iphy> | to learn the haskell way :) |
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| 19:16:45 | <Taneb> | "What's in a name? A semigroup by any other name would be as associative" |
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| 19:21:59 | <myShoggoth> | Haskell Foundation official update #1: https://discourse.haskell.org/t/haskell-foundation-update-2021-03-19 |
| 19:23:42 | <sm[m]> | thanks! |
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| 19:55:53 | hackage | exploring-interpreters 0.3.0.0 - A generic exploring interpreter for exploratory programming https://hackage.haskell.org/package/exploring-interpreters-0.3.0.0 (DamianFrolich) |
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| 20:00:39 | <Shiranai> | Hello, how am I to interpret curried infixed functions? E.g. if f: a -> b then is (`f` a) well formed? |
| 20:00:52 | dcoutts_ | is now known as dcoutts |
| 20:01:53 | <geekosaur> | :t let xyz a b = a + b in (`xyz` 3) |
| 20:01:55 | <lambdabot> | Num a => a -> a |
| 20:02:41 | <monochrom> | Unlikely to work if f:Int->Bool for example. But let me check: |
| 20:02:45 | <glguy> | Shiranai: if f :: a -> b, then we're free to pick b to be (c -> d), so f could be used :: a -> c -> d |
| 20:02:49 | <[exa]> | Shiranai: even if `f` seems to accept 1 parameter, the expression will just unify the type `b` to be some instance of `(x->y)` |
| 20:03:16 | <monochrom> | @type let {f :: Int -> Bool; f x = x>4 } in (`f` undefind) |
| 20:03:18 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 20:03:18 | <lambdabot> | • Variable not in scope: undefind |
| 20:03:18 | <lambdabot> | • Perhaps you meant ‘undefined’ (imported from Prelude) |
| 20:03:23 | <monochrom> | @type let {f :: Int -> Bool; f x = x>4 } in (`f` undefined) |
| 20:03:25 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 20:03:25 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match expected type ‘t0 -> t’ with actual type ‘Bool’ |
| 20:03:25 | <lambdabot> | • The operator ‘f’ takes two arguments, |
| 20:03:30 | <monochrom> | That. |
| 20:03:53 | <monochrom> | But what glguy said about when f:Int->(Char->Bool) |
| 20:04:31 | <monochrom> | Sorry I keep writing : for :: because lately I've been doing normal math/cs :) |
| 20:04:35 | <monochrom> | I mean ::) |
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| 20:05:33 | <[exa]> | man, your eyes |
| 20:05:35 | <[exa]> | O O |
| 20:05:36 | <[exa]> | O_O |
| 20:05:50 | <Shiranai> | I'm confused, ok so b in f :: a -> b unifies to (c -> d) but I'm not sure if the input is in the left or in the right side |
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| 20:06:23 | <monochrom> | I wear glasses. In Hong Kong, we who wear glasses are nicknamed as "four-eye people". ::) is exactly right. >::) |
| 20:06:34 | <Shiranai> | in geekosaur examples, is (`xys` 3) a equal to a + 3 or 3 + a? |
| 20:06:36 | <[exa]> | Shiranai: the input is the "right side" so the second argument. Compare (1 `f`) vs (`f` 1) |
| 20:06:53 | <monochrom> | f::a->c->d |
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| 20:07:15 | <geekosaur> | you can even test this, use (-) instead of (+) so it's obvious which side is which |
| 20:07:19 | <monochrom> | (`f` x) = \w -> f w x. Just always use that. |
| 20:07:30 | <geekosaur> | at least with the right choice of inputs |
| 20:07:40 | <[exa]> | Shiranai: (1 `f`) is the same as (f 1), (`f` 1) is the same as \a -> f a 1 , a.k.a. \a -> a `f` 1 |
| 20:07:41 | <Shiranai> | thanks monochrom, that's more clear for me |
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| 20:07:54 | <monochrom> | :) |
| 20:07:57 | <Shiranai> | Thanks everyone, I think I got it |
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| 20:09:02 | <[exa]> | btw, you can compare it with `flip`, sometimes the syntax is useful for avoiding unnecessary flipping. |
| 20:09:10 | <d34df00d> | What you're gonna do if your code behaves fine (albeit slowly) under profiler, but explodes with enormous memory consumption when compiled without profiling and with optimizations? |
| 20:09:44 | × | ixian quits (~mgold@terra.bitplane.org) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 20:09:47 | <[exa]> | d34df00d: does it get triggered by "optimizations on" or "profiling off" ? |
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| 20:10:59 | <d34df00d> | I think it's both. |
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| 20:11:26 | <d34df00d> | Hmm, actually hold on. I think it's "profiling off". Just added {-# OPTIONS_GHC -O0 #-} to the offending file, and it still explodes, but slowly. |
| 20:12:08 | <d34df00d> | Sadly, I don't have a minimal enough reproducing example. Luckily, the leak started happening after I changed this type and function: |
| 20:12:16 | <d34df00d> | https://bpaste.net/WZBA |
| 20:12:28 | <d34df00d> | (where VB is the usual boxed Data.Vector and V is Data.Vector.Unboxed) |
| 20:12:53 | <d34df00d> | Sooo, that didn't leak, and I changed that to this: |
| 20:13:00 | <d34df00d> | https://bpaste.net/57NA |
| 20:13:04 | <d34df00d> | and it started leaking. |
| 20:13:23 | <d34df00d> | Oh the almighty gurus of #haskell, can you spot anything that might trigger it here? |
| 20:14:03 | <[exa]> | if it's that functino, I'd just try making it strict (there's no reason not to imho) |
| 20:14:19 | <d34df00d> | Ah, right, I have {-# LANGUAGE Strict #-} |
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| 20:17:31 | <[exa]> | hm okay, that's gonna be interesting. |
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| 20:18:16 | <Shiranai> | Not specific to haskell but is there any guide on making a haskellish language? With the functional niceties such as first class functions, pattern matching and type inference |
| 20:19:13 | <d34df00d> | Stephen Diehl had a series on building haskell in haskell, I guess you could take a few ideas from there. |
| 20:19:15 | <[exa]> | Shiranai: Simon Peyton Jones papers :] and if you google for Stephen Diehl, he was collecting some kind of "make you a haskell" howto |
| 20:19:22 | <ephemient> | iphy: assuming you're talking about protocol buffer varint, they're encoded little-endian (least-significant first). so isn't that backwards? |
| 20:19:57 | <[exa]> | Shiranai: about SPJ papers-- the common reads are "typing haskell in haskell" and the paper about "STG" that I forgot the name of |
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| 20:21:48 | <Shiranai> | d34df00d: do you mean this http://dev.stephendiehl.com/fun/ ? seeems he saldy stopped writing in just before pattern matching :( |
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| 20:22:42 | <d34df00d> | Yep, that's the one. |
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| 20:23:21 | <geekosaur> | https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/implementing-lazy-functional-languages-on-stock-hardware-the-spineless-tagless-g-machine/ ? |
| 20:23:34 | <d34df00d> | Pls don't do any more lazy languages. |
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| 20:24:15 | <geekosaur> | this as you're apparently getting bitten by too much strictness? |
| 20:24:22 | <Shiranai> | haha why? But yeah I don't plan on making it lazy, I kinda not like that that much |
| 20:24:38 | <Shiranai> | geekosaur: Thanks, I'll check that too |
| 20:24:53 | <d34df00d> | I'm getting bitten by laziness all the time. |
| 20:25:08 | <d34df00d> | Non-strict evaluation model just gives me all sorts of pain. |
| 20:25:18 | <Shiranai> | I have no idea what and STG is but I suppose it'll be useful at some point |
| 20:25:39 | <geekosaur> | it's the evaluation engine underneath ghc's haskell implementation |
| 20:26:12 | <Shiranai> | my main interest is in logic so I don't see at least any benefit (from a logic point of view) of lazyness, just wanted to write a primitive recursive arithmetic language for fun |
| 20:26:47 | <d34df00d> | I guess the type systems you care about in logic don't care about evaluation order (largely because they all strongly normalize) |
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| 20:27:31 | <d34df00d> | And you don't care about performance because the code isn't intended to run. |
| 20:28:04 | <d34df00d> | I guess I should just return to proving things in agda instead of trying to make things run fast in haskell. |
| 20:28:07 | <Shiranai> | exactly, I do intend to run it this time, wonder how slow this stuff will be |
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| 20:28:55 | <maerwald> | Not all haskellers value laziness that much |
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| 20:31:20 | <maerwald> | I'd much rather have a dumb optimizer that I can reason about as opposed to a very smart one that I have to treat like a crazy oracle |
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| 20:31:47 | <[exa]> | this sounds like you've assigned ghc to the latter category |
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| 20:32:25 | <maerwald> | The lack of definite performance guides prove my point... and the ones that are out there are moving targets |
| 20:32:30 | <[exa]> | Shiranai: anyway, yes, the 'stg' paper is the one that geekosaur linked |
| 20:33:09 | <d34df00d> | I do indeed assign ghc to the latter category. |
| 20:33:40 | <Shiranai> | Thanks [exa] |
| 20:33:43 | <[exa]> | d34df00d: btw what happens if you turn of strictness for the whole module? (guess: it's a few times slower but doesn't explode) |
| 20:33:55 | <d34df00d> | [exa]: let me try that... |
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| 20:35:22 | <d34df00d> | Nah, it doesn't help. It looks to eat memory a few times slower indeed, but it still far exceeds the amount of ram taken by the original version. |
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| 20:35:34 | <[exa]> | Shiranai: if you are into logic, you might like THIH and the other typesystem papers (google OutsideIn(X)). Also google "typing the technical interview" for a funny connection between haskell typesystem and prolog term modes. |
| 20:35:39 | <maerwald> | I haven't even found a *definite* list of things that break inlining. Maybe this is obvious to GHC hackers, but not to everyone else |
| 20:37:25 | <Shiranai> | [exa] nice, I can't find the OutsideIn(X) thing you mentioned though, could please share a link to it? brb |
| 20:37:36 | <[exa]> | maerwald: the worse part is likely that there's no easy way to observe the results directly, further reducing the transparency of the process... you're often left with just looking at the timings |
| 20:38:08 | <[exa]> | Shiranai: https://lirias.kuleuven.be/185106?limo=0 |
| 20:38:13 | <d34df00d> | …and when fun stuff happens, there's often no way to debug that. |
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| 20:40:27 | <[exa]> | OTOH I'm not sure there's a systematic approach to fix this... either a gazillion of weird annotations and a complicated, likely rigid system that carries the "inline or not" information from the frontend down to the very lowlevel things, or perhaps allowing the user to write implementations of certain parts in the lower IRs (like if something has a straightforward representation in STG, write inline STG) |
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| 20:43:08 | <[exa]> | let's say it's a "systematic approach to reason about the whole compiler pipeline". may need research. |
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| 20:56:24 | <ramses_> | hello ppl |
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| 20:58:45 | <ramses_> | I have a local stack project A which depends on another local project B. How shoud I refernce B from A in stack.yaml? I suppose in "extra-deps" but which folder? |
| 20:59:32 | <maerwald> | the folder of project B? |
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| 21:01:04 | <ramses_> | maerwald: but it would be reference as a source project wouldn't it? |
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| 21:02:23 | hackage | yesod-page-cursor 2.0.0.5 - https://hackage.haskell.org/package/yesod-page-cursor-2.0.0.5 (PatrickBrisbin) |
| 21:03:10 | <ramses_> | maerwald: actually project B has several packages. Can I reference them all as pkgdb? |
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| 21:05:57 | <monochrom> | I don't use stack, I use cabal, but my impression is that the following is true for both: 1. Yes source project, that's the norm. 2. A disk cache of build products is kept, you still have a high chance of sharing build products without too much rebuilding. |
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| 21:07:16 | <ramses_> | monochrom: thx |
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| 21:26:53 | hackage | foldl-transduce 0.6.0.1 - Transducers for foldl folds. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/foldl-transduce-0.6.0.1 (DanielDiazCarrete) |
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| 21:31:53 | <iphy> | ephemient: it's MIDI |
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| 21:33:12 | <hyiltiz> | Does this mean GHC version incompatibility? :m System.Console.Readline.readline "hello" produces /usr/lib/haskell-packages/ghc/lib/x86_64-linux-ghc-8.8.4/libHSreadline-1.0.3.0-1A6VPCAptm0CjQAEqTgJr3-ghc8.8.4.so: undefined symbol: rl_redisplay |
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| 21:37:48 | <ephemient> | iphy: ok. personally I'd probably split things up something like this, but it's kind of a matter of taste maybe https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/xJDEEfRk/ |
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| 21:53:32 | <joel135> | how do you make a parsec Parser String which extracts x from a string of the form a ++ x ++ b ? |
| 21:54:30 | <monochrom> | I think it's an uphill battle. |
| 21:54:53 | <monochrom> | And the problem statement is likely way too general. |
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| 21:55:51 | <joel135> | ok |
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| 21:57:05 | <hpc> | if you assume some assumptions, it's do {a; s <- x; b; pure s} |
| 21:57:12 | <hpc> | for some a, b, x |
| 21:57:23 | <sm[m]> | Or, is it simply a matter of https://hackage.haskell.org/package/parsec-3.1.14.0/docs/Text-Parsec-Combinator.html#v:between ? |
| 21:58:30 | <joel135> | with that i could handle things like .../x/... right |
| 21:58:38 | <monochrom> | "between" works if the middle string has no way of prematurely being recongized as b. |
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| 21:59:53 | hackage | gemini-textboard 0.2.0.1 - A barebones textboard for the Gemini protocol https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gemini-textboard-0.2.0.1 (fgaz) |
| 22:00:06 | <monochrom> | For example /\// is not recognized as a="/", x="\/", b="/". No no, it is recognized as a="/", x="\", b="/", and there is a leftover "/" after. |
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| 22:00:23 | <joel135> | right |
| 22:00:35 | <monochrom> | parsec is not a non-deterministic automatically-try-all-possibilities-super-regex parser. |
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| 22:21:53 | hackage | zeolite-lang 0.14.0.0 - Zeolite is a statically-typed, general-purpose programming language. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/zeolite-lang-0.14.0.0 (ta0kira) |
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| 23:06:12 | <solidus-river> | hey all, i recently read that StateT and WriterT have space leaks / are broken? Is this still true? Where can I find out more |
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| 23:11:23 | hackage | hspec-junit-formatter 1.0.0.0 - A JUnit XML runner/formatter for hspec https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hspec-junit-formatter-1.0.0.0 (mjgpy3) |
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| 23:18:51 | <jackdk> | solidus-river: not sure for StateT, but for with traditional WriterT : 1. if you use lists directly, you build up left-associated (++) which are O(n^2) runtime; 2. If nothing is forcing the additions to the writer log as you go, you defer work to the end. You could look at using a WriterT with (DList a) for your w or https://hackage.haskell.org/package/transformers-0.5.6.2/docs/Control-Monad-Trans-Writer-CPS.html |
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| 23:20:33 | <solidus-river> | jackdk, thanks, that's a much better explanation than the article gave already. |
| 23:20:45 | <jackdk> | "the article"? |
| 23:21:09 | <solidus-river> | yeah, it was from fp complete but i read it last night and not sure I'll be able to find it again |
| 23:21:46 | <solidus-river> | to it's credit it did link to another article for more info but the only thing written in the entry was "stateT / writerT are fundamentally broken even with the strict versions and have space leaks" |
| 23:21:51 | <solidus-river> | or something along those lines |
| 23:22:09 | <jackdk> | yeah, I believe that I've read that too, but I haven't looked at the guts of the implementation |
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| 23:24:39 | <solidus-river> | found it, this was the link |
| 23:24:40 | <solidus-river> | https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/libraries/2012-October/018599.html |
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| 23:24:45 | <solidus-river> | its quite old so i thought maybe it was a relic |
| 23:25:07 | <solidus-river> | the hpaste link is expired |
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| 23:27:40 | <solidus-river> | how can i understand better why (++) ends up being O(n^2) |
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| 23:30:06 | <infinisil> | Pretty sure it should be O(n) |
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| 23:33:44 | <solidus-river> | more concretely, the pipes tutorial mentions at the end that sequence, replicateM and mapM all work in quadratic time with respect to n but doesn't really explain it. It seems really suprising to me that they would be n^2 so i'm hoping to understand why |
| 23:33:47 | <solidus-river> | http://hackage.haskell.org/package/pipes-4.3.12/docs/Pipes-Tutorial.html#g:10 |
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| 23:39:12 | <jackdk> | it's left-associated (++) in particular. Write out `((([1] ++ [2]) ++ [3]) ++ [4]) ++ [5]` on a piece of paper, and crank through the evaluation by hand. You'll notice that you walk the prefix of the list over and over again |
| 23:39:47 | <jackdk> | whereas `[1] ++ ([2] ++ ([3] ++ ([4] ++ [5])))` is O(n) |
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| 23:42:35 | <monochrom> | You will also need to expand (++) as: [] ++ ys = ys; (x:xs) ++ ys = x : (xs ++ ys) |
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