Logs on 2021-03-20 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 00:05:27 | <jackdk> | yes, thank you monochrom |
| 00:05:31 | <hyiltiz> | http://ix.io/2Ttt/haskell How do I generalize the isConnected3 function that works for binary state over 3-by-3 grid via pattern matching into m-by-n grid? |
| 00:06:05 | <hyiltiz> | I would very much prefer avoiding any TH magic, but would welcome Applicative or combinatorics style stuff |
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| 00:08:04 | <hyiltiz> | The easiest/brute force method I can think of would check for rows and positive diagonals, and iterate/fold over rows and the transpose of rows |
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| 01:07:24 | <infinisil> | hyiltiz: I recommend recursion |
| 01:08:05 | <hyiltiz> | and more specifically (which kind of recursion with what function over what region)? |
| 01:08:10 | <infinisil> | For one, create functions to shift the grid in the 3 directions (left-right, up-down, diagonal) |
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| 01:09:12 | <infinisil> | Checking whether there's k in sequence then can be done by checking the top-left element, then shifting the grid in each direction |
| 01:09:17 | <infinisil> | And recursing with the smaller grid |
| 01:09:24 | <infinisil> | (and a smaller k) |
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| 01:11:09 | <infinisil> | I guess you might want three functions for the different directions |
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| 01:12:53 | <infinisil> | So e.g. you could have `horizontalConnected :: [[P]] -> Maybe P` |
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| 01:13:55 | <solidus-river> | jackdk, monochrom ahh, makes sense, sorry I saw that in between thoughts and never responded :X |
| 01:14:09 | <infinisil> | Or maybe `horizontalConnected :: [[P]] -> Int -> Maybe P` for k |
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| 01:16:30 | <infinisil> | Though not sure what that would return exactly |
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| 01:17:17 | <infinisil> | I had in mind something like "Returns Just v when the top-left of the given grid has a k-long horizontal sequence of v's" |
| 01:18:19 | <infinisil> | Then that's kind of problematic for recursion |
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| 01:30:16 | <curl> | im trying to write a function which integrates a polynomial against an error surface weighted by dirac-like gausians at interpolant fit points, in order to compute the gradient in order to have the direction of best improvement for the polynomial coefficients to flow along |
| 01:30:44 | <curl> | i have a representation for multivariate polynomials in haskell already |
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| 03:21:56 | <hololeap> | just want to get a quick poll: what's the best alternative prelude for general use? |
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| 03:27:00 | <MarcelineVQ> | relude |
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| 03:36:37 | <Cale> | hololeap: The standard one. |
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| 03:43:42 | <hololeap> | MarcelineVQ: thanks |
| 03:43:54 | <hololeap> | Cale: i said _alternative prelude_ :) |
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| 03:49:53 | <davean> | hololeap: fine, 'lens' then |
| 03:50:15 | <Cale> | hahaha |
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| 03:50:53 | hackage | ipa 0.1.0.0 - Internal Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ipa-0.1.0.0 (RoryTylerHayford) |
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| 04:12:30 | <hololeap> | welp, got one serious reply. thanks MarcelineVQ! |
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| 04:13:23 | hackage | ipa 0.1.0.1 - Internal Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ipa-0.1.0.1 (RoryTylerHayford) |
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| 04:34:27 | <infinisil> | Is there anything to say against enabling a bunch of extensions by default with cabal's default-extensions? |
| 04:34:40 | <infinisil> | That is, only "well-behaved" extensions |
| 04:35:18 | <c_wraith> | It's nice when files are more self-contained. |
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| 04:36:00 | <davean> | More for people dropping by to use a library than its maintainers of course, but it is more clear whats going on |
| 04:36:40 | <infinisil> | I think the extensions that are automatically suggested are mostly good enough for that too |
| 04:36:57 | <infinisil> | When I copy some code from somewhere, I usually just follow ghc's errors about which extensions to enable |
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| 04:38:39 | <infinisil> | Also, enabling "well-behaved" extensions by default, then explicitly enabling naughty ones per-file highlights them more |
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| 05:29:23 | hackage | place-cursor-at 1.0.0 - A utility for X11 that moves the mouse cursor using the keyboard https://hackage.haskell.org/package/place-cursor-at-1.0.0 (unclechu) |
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| 06:18:08 | <unclechu> | hey, can anyone tell me how do i release my package in nixpkgs (in Nix packages repository)? |
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| 06:18:40 | <unclechu> | i see that hackage packages set is autogenerated |
| 06:18:57 | <unclechu> | how does a new package gets in? |
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| 06:38:21 | <olligobber> | unclechu, my guess is that someone on the nix team would have to review and approve your package |
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| 06:42:18 | <jackdk> | Surely this is a #nixos question? |
| 06:43:25 | <olligobber> | :t drop <> take |
| 06:43:27 | <lambdabot> | Int -> [a] -> [a] |
| 06:43:30 | <olligobber> | yeet |
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| 06:45:56 | <dhruvasagar> | :t (<>) |
| 06:45:58 | <lambdabot> | Semigroup a => a -> a -> a |
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| 06:52:03 | <unclechu> | olligobber: but the question is how would i propose to review a package? |
| 06:52:36 | <unclechu> | jackdk: i’m struggling to decide where this question fits better. it’s both related to haskell and nix |
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| 06:52:49 | <olligobber> | it's more related to nix than haskell imo |
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| 07:18:43 | <molehillish> | how can this work -> "abc" ++ take 3 "def" |
| 07:19:07 | <molehillish> | sorry ... mistype |
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| 07:35:55 | <hyiltiz> | infinisil: my grid isn't "positioned" in a coordinate so shifting it probably is going to get ugly; instead I can shift a parametric function that checks from point (x,y) |
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| 07:36:52 | <hyiltiz> | but I /feel/ like there might be a simpler/elegant/smarter way to do it with less verbose code |
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| 07:43:23 | <siraben> | molehillish: what would you expect from that expression? |
| 07:43:32 | <siraben> | > "abc" ++ take 3 "def" |
| 07:43:34 | <lambdabot> | "abcdef" |
| 07:43:45 | <siraben> | it may help to parenthesize it like "abc" ++ (take 3 "def") |
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| 08:19:29 | <jacks2> | hi |
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| 08:19:40 | <jacks2> | what's the name of that new record extension that will be part of new GHC? |
| 08:19:52 | <tomsmeding> | RecordDotSyntax? |
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| 08:24:15 | <jacks2> | tomsmeding, is that the one? not sure if you're asking me, or answering |
| 08:24:24 | <jacks2> | many were proposed in the past |
| 08:24:49 | <tomsmeding> | jacks2: what does it do, extension are you looking for? :p |
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| 08:25:58 | <jacks2> | makes it easier to access and update records, reducing the need for lens library |
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| 08:26:55 | <tomsmeding> | jacks2: not sure if it eases _updating_ records, but accessing records can be done using 'r.x' syntax with RecordDotSyntax, instead of the usual 'x r' |
| 08:26:57 | <jacks2> | IIRC it also handles multiple types that share the same field name |
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| 08:27:30 | <tomsmeding> | you can disable generation of selector functions using NoFieldSelectors |
| 08:27:42 | <tomsmeding> | using those together indeed makes it possible to have different records with the same field name |
| 08:27:55 | <jacks2> | it provides no functionality when it comes to updating nested records? |
| 08:28:09 | <tomsmeding> | I _believe_ so, but check the docs |
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| 08:32:55 | <jacks2> | yeah, it has nested update syntax |
| 08:32:59 | <jacks2> | setYearTaken c y = c{taken.year = y} -- nested update |
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| 08:50:19 | <tomsmeding> | oooo I see |
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| 09:13:55 | <jackdk> | merijn: you weren't kidding - the "Making a Fast Curry" paper is significantly easier to get my head around. The speed increase is a nice bonus |
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| 10:14:23 | hackage | cayenne-lpp 0.2.0.0 - Cayenne Low Power Payload https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cayenne-lpp-0.2.0.0 (srk) |
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| 10:29:53 | hackage | ttn-client 0.2.1.0 - TheThingsNetwork client https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ttn-client-0.2.1.0 (srk) |
| 10:32:11 | <joel135> | does :set -XHaskell2010 increase or decrease functinality compared with no flag? |
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| 10:35:23 | hackage | vector-builder 0.3.8.1 - Vector builder https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector-builder-0.3.8.1 (NikitaVolkov) |
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| 10:36:23 | hackage | arbtt 0.11 - Automatic Rule-Based Time Tracker https://hackage.haskell.org/package/arbtt-0.11 (JoachimBreitner) |
| 10:37:11 | <joel135> | another question: can i tell stack to enable certain haskell extensions by default in all of my source files ? |
| 10:37:19 | <joel135> | (i guess not) |
| 10:38:09 | <tomsmeding> | joel135: -XHaskell2010 is the default |
| 10:38:15 | <joel135> | oh i see |
| 10:38:25 | <tomsmeding> | joel135: are you using package.yaml? |
| 10:38:26 | <maralorn> | joel135: I think there are a few difference between the Haskell 2010 standard and what ghc treats as Haskell 2010, but I think you still get that differences when you use -XHaskell2010. |
| 10:38:44 | <joel135> | and 98 is the main alternative? |
| 10:39:14 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 10:39:34 | <tomsmeding> | a new version of GHC will have -XGHC2021, I believe, which is Haskell2010 plus a number of "common" extensions |
| 10:39:41 | <joel135> | i have stack.yaml and package.yaml |
| 10:40:10 | <joel135> | ok |
| 10:40:25 | <jacks2> | you can specify ghc extensions in cabal file, per project, or in a global cabal file |
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| 10:41:14 | <tomsmeding> | joel135: try the default-extensions key in package.yaml |
| 10:41:41 | <tomsmeding> | as in e.g. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/48376430/enable-package-wide-extensions-in-stack-runghc |
| 10:42:21 | <joel135> | what might the remark ".cabal packages are more fragile in source format" be referring to ? |
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| 10:42:31 | <tomsmeding> | stack people that don't like cabal |
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| 10:42:50 | <joel135> | count me in! |
| 10:42:57 | <tomsmeding> | cabal format requires you to manually add modules to the project, whereas stack+hpack (package.yaml) does that automatically for you |
| 10:43:03 | <tomsmeding> | I guess that's what they're referring to |
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| 10:46:44 | <joel135> | ok |
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| 12:10:38 | <timCF> | Hello! Does anybody know the reason why Functors are called Functors? |
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| 12:21:22 | <geekosaur> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functor#Computer_implementations (noting that Haskell's Functor actually represents endofunctors, techniques for representing other categories in Haskell not having been developed at the time) |
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| 12:23:52 | <geekosaur> | (but I'm really the wrong person to ask about this; problem being nobody else seems to be around/awake) |
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| 12:38:53 | hackage | ptr 0.16.8 - Abstractions for operations on pointers https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ptr-0.16.8 (NikitaVolkov) |
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| 12:58:23 | hackage | funcons-tools 0.2.0.10 - A modular interpreter for executing funcons https://hackage.haskell.org/package/funcons-tools-0.2.0.10 (ltvanbinsbergen) |
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| 13:18:23 | hackage | polysemy-http 0.3.1.0 - Polysemy effect for http-client https://hackage.haskell.org/package/polysemy-http-0.3.1.0 (tek) |
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| 13:22:23 | hackage | network-packet-linux 0.1.1.0 - Types for working with Linux packet sockets https://hackage.haskell.org/package/network-packet-linux-0.1.1.0 (rolsdorph) |
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| 13:56:17 | <chewb> | hello i get error on import Monad, Could not find module `Monad' |
| 13:56:53 | hackage | funcons-tools 0.2.0.11 - A modular interpreter for executing funcons https://hackage.haskell.org/package/funcons-tools-0.2.0.11 (ltvanbinsbergen) |
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| 13:56:57 | <chewb> | full code https://bpa.st/ZY3Q |
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| 13:59:59 | <peanut__> | how about Control.Monad |
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| 14:04:59 | <ep1ctetus> | Hi, I'm trying to figure out some error handling, I want to call 'scrapeURLWithConfig', but I think it can throw a HttpException or a UnicodeException. How do I handle both potential types? |
| 14:05:21 | <chewb> | thx |
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| 14:11:53 | hackage | ptr 0.16.8.1 - Abstractions for operations on pointers https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ptr-0.16.8.1 (NikitaVolkov) |
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| 14:26:03 | <LogicUpgrade> | I think functional programming is in a hype bubble. I can tell because when I google "functional programming is bad" all the talks are ironically named. |
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| 14:26:30 | <LogicUpgrade> | But in engineering there's only one certainty: everything that's good has also a bad side |
| 14:26:34 | <Uniaika> | hahaha |
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| 15:10:23 | hackage | rattletrap 11.0.1 - Parse and generate Rocket League replays. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/rattletrap-11.0.1 (fozworth) |
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| 15:49:51 | <bbhoss> | How much do I need to think about stack depth and tail call optimization with Haskell? |
| 15:51:18 | <c_wraith> | several things: GHC uses the stack for nested evaluation, not fucntion calls. All tail calls are eliminated. And tail calls are usually inferior to guarded co-recursion |
| 15:51:20 | <Lycurgus> | that they are things |
| 15:52:34 | <c_wraith> | So... sometimes tail calls come up. But it's usually more important to focus on preventing nested evaluation |
| 15:52:41 | <Lycurgus> | these days when would you ever "worry" about stack depth, outside of normal programming sensicality? |
| 15:52:49 | <c_wraith> | or rather, deeply-nested evaluation |
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| 15:55:20 | <bbhoss> | I am coming from elixir, and it does do tco but the last thing you do in a function must be calling itself, otherwise it will add a frame and not optimize. So I’m wondering is there something similar I should watch out for |
| 15:55:41 | <c_wraith> | bbhoss: most of the time it's the wrong thing to worry about. stack frames don't come from function calls |
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| 15:56:44 | <bbhoss> | Like most of the fib examples you see aren’t able to be optimized in elixir, you must add an additional parameter for passing state across calls to make it optimizable. I’ve seen very similar fib Haskell examples and wondered if they’re potentially problematic |
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| 15:57:13 | <c_wraith> | only in that they take exponential time.... |
| 15:57:26 | <bbhoss> | Gotcha, that’s cool |
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| 15:58:04 | <c_wraith> | I mean, they do created nested evaluation, so they do use stack.. but the runtime is exponential in the stack depth, so that's not usually a concern. |
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| 15:58:12 | <c_wraith> | also, GHC will grow a thread's stack on demand |
| 15:58:23 | <c_wraith> | you really need to work to run out of stack space |
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| 15:59:19 | <c_wraith> | but you *really* need to pay attention to creating nested evaluation |
| 15:59:28 | <c_wraith> | @src foldl |
| 15:59:29 | <lambdabot> | foldl f z [] = z |
| 15:59:29 | <lambdabot> | foldl f z (x:xs) = foldl f (f z x) xs |
| 15:59:35 | <c_wraith> | look, nicely tail recursive |
| 15:59:56 | <c_wraith> | But that's irrelevant, because it still creates a huge nested expression |
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| 16:00:06 | <c_wraith> | actually evaluating the result can be quite slow |
| 16:00:40 | <c_wraith> | (Before GHC started growing the stack when needed, it was an easy way to show exceeding the stack size) |
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| 16:00:55 | <bbhoss> | Great, yeah I have a list of lists which represent a rank ordered list of votes for candidates. I want to basically do a simple election tally so I need to sum. It’s basically a reduce/fold but I was wondering if I wrote the function myself instead of using fold is it something I’d need to worry with. In elixir reduce/fold handle these tco details where if you roll your own you do need to worry |
| 16:01:54 | <c_wraith> | you don't need to worry about the stack. |
| 16:02:17 | <c_wraith> | but you absolutely need to worry about nested expressions |
| 16:04:13 | <c_wraith> | please understand: Haskell requires you to consider different things. The model is different. If you try to treat it the same as any other language, you'll find the results unsatisfying |
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| 16:29:53 | hackage | eio 0.0.0.0 - IO with Exceptions tracked on the type-level https://hackage.haskell.org/package/eio-0.0.0.0 (shersh) |
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| 16:32:37 | <ski> | bbhoss : tail calls are relevant, but not as relevant as in strict languages. often, it may be better to be incremental, rather than bulky (which is forced by being tail-recursive), if possible |
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| 16:57:53 | hackage | flatparse 0.1.1.2 - High-performance parsing from strict bytestrings https://hackage.haskell.org/package/flatparse-0.1.1.2 (AndrasKovacs) |
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| 17:05:31 | <timCF> | Hello! Does anybody know what is the reason behind `Functor` being superclass of `Applicative`, and `Applicative` being superclass of `Monad`? |
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| 17:07:04 | tomsmeding | thinks that 'flatparse' library looks pretty nifty |
| 17:07:50 | <tomsmeding> | timCF: are you asking why those classes exist in the first place, or why they are in that superclass relationship? |
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| 17:08:51 | <timCF> | tomsmeding: why there is such superclass relationship. Why they have to be related this way? |
| 17:09:13 | <tomsmeding> | timCF: because every Applicative would be a Functor anyhow: fmap f x = pure f <*> x |
| 17:09:50 | <geekosaur> | and every Monad would be a Functor anyhow (see liftM) |
| 17:09:53 | <tomsmeding> | and similarly every Monad would be an Applicative anyhow: pure = return; mf <*> mx = mf >>= \f -> mx >>= \x -> return (f x) |
| 17:09:54 | <geekosaur> | @src liftM |
| 17:09:54 | <lambdabot> | liftM f m1 = do |
| 17:09:54 | <lambdabot> | x1 <- m1 |
| 17:09:54 | <lambdabot> | return (f x1) |
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| 17:10:24 | tomsmeding | hopes that <*> implementation typechecks |
| 17:10:37 | <tomsmeding> | :t \mf mx -> mf >>= \f -> mx >>= \x -> return (f x) |
| 17:10:39 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => m (t -> b) -> m t -> m b |
| 17:10:42 | <tomsmeding> | yay |
| 17:11:12 | <hpc> | :t return |
| 17:11:14 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => a -> m a |
| 17:11:17 | <hpc> | :t (>>=) |
| 17:11:18 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b |
| 17:11:26 | <ski> | (<*>) = ap |
| 17:11:28 | <hpc> | i wonder why it decided to name that type variable t |
| 17:12:14 | <ski> | @type ap |
| 17:12:15 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b |
| 17:12:22 | <ski> | @src ap |
| 17:12:22 | <lambdabot> | ap = liftM2 id |
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| 17:14:07 | <geekosaur> | :t let x = x in x -- seems to be the new "default type" |
| 17:14:09 | <lambdabot> | t |
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| 17:14:58 | <dhruvasagar> | who is developing this bot ? |
| 17:15:03 | <hpc> | ah, interesting |
| 17:15:13 | <dhruvasagar> | I hope it's build in haskell :) |
| 17:15:36 | <Uniaika> | dredozubov: yep |
| 17:15:59 | <dhruvasagar> | Uniaika: I am assuming you meant that for me |
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| 17:17:10 | <Uniaika> | damnit |
| 17:17:10 | <Uniaika> | yes |
| 17:17:12 | <Uniaika> | sorry |
| 17:17:14 | <Uniaika> | >_> |
| 17:17:39 | <hpc> | @hackage lambdabot -- dhruvasagar |
| 17:17:39 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lambdabot -- dhruvasagar |
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| 17:36:33 | <dhruvasagar> | hpc: thanks |
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| 17:49:53 | hackage | streaming-nonempty 0.1.0.0 - Add support for non empty streams to Streaming lib https://hackage.haskell.org/package/streaming-nonempty-0.1.0.0 (PaoloVeronelli) |
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| 18:54:54 | hackage | polysemy-http 0.4.0.0 - Polysemy effect for http-client https://hackage.haskell.org/package/polysemy-http-0.4.0.0 (tek) |
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| 19:03:23 | hackage | place-cursor-at 1.0.1 - A utility for X11 that moves the mouse cursor using the keyboard https://hackage.haskell.org/package/place-cursor-at-1.0.1 (unclechu) |
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| 19:06:53 | hackage | HTTP 4000.3.16 - A library for client-side HTTP https://hackage.haskell.org/package/HTTP-4000.3.16 (GaneshSittampalam) |
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| 19:13:24 | <gentauro> | this `ghc-vis` is kind of amazing :o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDzg-e3OSz8 |
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| 19:25:59 | <tempate> | Hello there. This is my very first Haskell program: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/tbitwLuL . It's from Advent of Code 2020, day 1. It would be great if I could get some feedback on what to improve and how to do things in a more haskellian way. |
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| 19:28:10 | <ski> | tempate : use guards instead of `if'-`then'-`else' ? |
| 19:28:53 | <ski> | personally, i would definitely remove all `$'s, except maybe the ones directly after `putStrLn' |
| 19:29:22 | <tempate> | ski: oh, right, guards seem reasonable |
| 19:29:30 | <tomsmeding> | tempate: kind of unrelated to the programming language, but I believe your 'star1' is quadratic in the length of the input list, and 'star2' is cubic |
| 19:29:33 | <ski> | (brackets are nothing to be afraid of. and `(map read $ lines contents)' doesn't even have less brackets than `map read (lines contents)') |
| 19:29:38 | <tempate> | ski: may I ask why would you remove all the $s? |
| 19:29:41 | <tomsmeding> | there are faster algorithms :) |
| 19:29:50 | <ski> | tempate : because they look ugly, imho |
| 19:30:29 | <ski> | (and, for newbies, may indicate thinking that "avoiding brackets" is something to strive for, in itself) |
| 19:30:31 | <tempate> | tomsmeding: yes, I'm aware. I was trying to get a very simple version in to see how I did. |
| 19:31:25 | <tempate> | I've been told that in Haskell it's usually idiomatic to use small names, so would it be better to replace (first:numbers) with (x:xs), for instance? |
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| 19:31:56 | <ski> | tempate : instead of `/= Nothing', better to use pattern-matching (or `isJust'/`isNothing', if you must) |
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| 19:33:05 | <ski> | tempate : reasonable length of names depend on the scope of the names, and also on how general they are. e.g. `object' or `value' isn't really any better than `x' |
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| 19:33:55 | <ski> | for numbers, at least integers, i'd commonly use `n' or `m' |
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| 19:34:44 | <ski> | it's possible to replace the type ascription in the definition of `numbers' in `main', with a type signature, if you'd prefer that |
| 19:35:15 | <ski> | `star2' doesn't handle the empty list. is that intended ? |
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| 19:36:24 | <ski> | (usually, if reasonable, it's better to allow trivial/vacuous/dummy/null cases. can be more flexible, may lead to more laws to refactor and reason with. can improve DRY) |
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| 19:37:29 | <ski> | seeing `fromJust' (and similar partial functions) is usually a code smell |
| 19:37:48 | <tomsmeding> | % star1' numbers target = listToMaybe [x * (target - x) | x:xs <- tails numbers, target - x `elem` xs] |
| 19:37:48 | <yahb> | tomsmeding: |
| 19:38:00 | <tomsmeding> | % star1' [1,5,3,4,2,3,4,3] 5 |
| 19:38:00 | <yahb> | tomsmeding: Just 4 |
| 19:38:06 | <tomsmeding> | % 1 * 4 |
| 19:38:06 | <yahb> | tomsmeding: 4 |
| 19:38:14 | <tomsmeding> | well it's shorter :p |
| 19:38:20 | <ski> | `x:xs <- tails numbers' is a nice trick :) |
| 19:38:52 | <tomsmeding> | yes I was messing around with `zip numbers (tail (tails numbers))` but then I was like, wait, there was this trick :) |
| 19:39:11 | <tempate> | Alright, how is this for version 2: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/1kzTAk3u ? |
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| 19:39:51 | <tomsmeding> | tempate: I find your second version quite a bit more readable than the first |
| 19:40:05 | ski | concurs |
| 19:40:26 | <tempate> | ski: oh, right, I didn't consider the empty list in star2 'cus it'll never happen |
| 19:40:28 | <ski> | (oh, i'd write `IO ()', i suppose) |
| 19:40:46 | <tempate> | oh, ok |
| 19:40:51 | <ski> | > lines "" |
| 19:40:53 | <lambdabot> | [] |
| 19:41:08 | <ski> | it would happen, with empty standard input |
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| 19:41:49 | <tempate> | I know this is trivial, but should I handle the empty list before or after the non-trivial case? |
| 19:41:59 | <ski> | (perhaps there's a precondition in the task that that won't happen) |
| 19:42:18 | <ski> | i usually handle the empty case, or base case(s), first |
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| 19:42:37 | <ski> | they're commonly shorter than the recursive case(s) |
| 19:43:20 | <tempate> | Alright |
| 19:43:32 | <tomsmeding> | gentauro: fancy! |
| 19:43:39 | <ski> | if you want to think of the recursion as effecting a kind of loop, then what you're doing here is more akin to a `while' loop anyway, and in that case the termination condition is also upfront |
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| 19:44:26 | <ski> | (sometimes people put the base case last, i guess because they think of it as "this will happen last, at the end of the list". however, e.g. for trees, there's no single "end", there's many leaves) |
| 19:44:39 | <ski> | @src zip |
| 19:44:39 | <lambdabot> | zip (a:as) (b:bs) = (a,b) : zip as bs |
| 19:44:39 | <lambdabot> | zip _ _ = [] |
| 19:45:32 | <ski> | is an example where the base case is last, because here the ordering actually matters, due to the defining equations having overlapping definienda, and Haskell picking the first one that matches |
| 19:45:49 | <tempate> | Hmmm |
| 19:45:50 | <ski> | (that is a debatable choice, but it's now how Haskell works) |
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| 19:47:18 | <tempate> | Alright, fantastic |
| 19:47:35 | tomsmeding | . o O ( Hmm, definienda -- "things that must be defined" if I remember my Latin correctly; I'd just use 'patterns', I think ) |
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| 19:48:09 | <tempate> | For consistency this is my third and final version: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/prQ6OOAe |
| 19:48:15 | <tempate> | I'm going to move to another problem now |
| 19:48:22 | <tempate> | Thank you both very much for your help |
| 19:48:24 | <ski> | `a:as' and `b:bs' are patterns there. `zip (a:as) (b:bs)' is the definiendum ("what is to be defined"). `(a,b) : zip as bs' is the definiens ("what it's defined to be/mean") |
| 19:49:06 | <ski> | (this is an indirect definition, since we're defining `zip', by way of defining what is the result of applying it, to every possible input) |
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| 19:49:49 | ski | just likes some such latin terms :p |
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| 19:50:29 | <ski> | tempate : you know that you're able to write |
| 19:50:35 | <ski> | let numbers :: [Int] |
| 19:50:40 | <ski> | numbers = ... |
| 19:50:42 | <ski> | yes ? |
| 19:50:52 | <tempate> | I do, but is that any better? |
| 19:51:17 | <tomsmeding> | ski: I see :) |
| 19:51:18 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 19:51:24 | <ski> | (not saying you should necessarily do that here. just pointing out the possibility. sometimes people don't realize you can put signatures inside `let' and `where') |
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| 19:52:22 | <ski> | tempate : better, in the end, is up for you to decide. it's your code, it should be readable to you |
| 19:52:46 | <ski> | (being aware of common problems, pitfalls, issues, tricks, conventions, help, of course) |
| 19:52:47 | <tempate> | ski: alright, I appreciate the advice as, as you can probably tell, I'm learning by doing. I usually like to learn programming languages by running head-first against the wall, so every piece of advice, or comment, you're willing to give me is more than welcome. |
| 19:52:58 | ski | nods |
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| 19:54:01 | <ski> | in my experience, newbies (or talking to newbies) often benefit from being a bit extra strict with terminology, distinctions, relevant concepts, and possible related confusions |
| 19:55:37 | <ski> | (i've seen multiple people say this, or had them thank me, when i've attempted to elucidate such matters. when one's more comfortable with the stuff, and talking to others who are, one can afford to be a bit more sloppy) |
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| 19:58:15 | <tempate> | I agree |
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| 20:07:57 | shapr | hops quietly |
| 20:08:14 | <shapr> | six weeks until #haskell turns 20 |
| 20:09:43 | ski | boings quietly |
| 20:09:49 | <shapr> | hi ski! |
| 20:10:34 | <ski> | hm, first of May, was it, roughly ? |
| 20:10:47 | <ski> | hejs :) |
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| 20:14:53 | hackage | recursion-schemes 5.2.2.1 - Representing common recursion patterns as higher-order functions https://hackage.haskell.org/package/recursion-schemes-5.2.2.1 (luc_tielen) |
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| 20:15:31 | <ski> | i don't remember if i came here in the late spring, or in the autumn |
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| 20:24:09 | <shapr> | ski: I think you were one of the first few |
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| 20:27:24 | <ski> | yea, iirc we were around a dozen to a score, back then |
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| 20:27:52 | <ski> | i guess i found the description on hawiki at the right time :) |
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| 20:34:54 | <tempate> | I got this one sooner than I expected |
| 20:34:55 | <tempate> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/gSqLJcqA |
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| 20:37:38 | <tempate> | Is camel case more idiomatic in haskell than snail case? |
| 20:37:48 | <ski> | yes |
| 20:38:19 | <ski> | i think, occasionaly, the latter may be used, or even both at the same time |
| 20:38:30 | <tempate> | Actually, I think this is more readable: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/tc4tAf3e |
| 20:39:11 | <ski> | instead of `(a,b) = ...' and `b_ = tail b', you could say `(a,_:b_) = ...' |
| 20:39:52 | <ski> | or, i guess, in this case, possibly (a,'-':b_) = ... |
| 20:40:44 | <ski> | and instead of `head char' you can say `char', with `char:_' replacing the pattern `char' |
| 20:40:45 | <tempate> | oh, right |
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| 20:41:40 | <ski> | in `policy1', `(c:cs)' could be `c:cs' |
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| 20:42:05 | ski | would probably personally align the parameters of the recursive call |
| 20:42:09 | <tempate> | ski: yeah, I thought about that but I thought `head char` was more readable |
| 20:42:26 | <ski> | (but then i may like things lining up, quite a bit) |
| 20:42:40 | <tempate> | does (a, '-', b) = bounds make sense? |
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| 20:43:02 | <ski> | `head',`tail',`fromJust' will give worse error messages, not including a location |
| 20:43:17 | <ski> | no, the second `,' should be a `:', as i said |
| 20:44:07 | <tempate> | I thought that was if I was using a break |
| 20:44:26 | <ski> | oh, sorry. i missed the `bounds' part |
| 20:44:37 | <ski> | you'd still need the `break', yes |
| 20:44:50 | <tempate> | oh, ok |
| 20:45:43 | <tempate> | ski: do you like the str_index part (despite the camel case? |
| 20:45:47 | <tempate> | +) |
| 20:47:19 | <ski> | map f (map g xs) = (map f . map g) xs = map (f . g) xs -- one pass instead of two |
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| 20:48:26 | <ski> | oh, only saw the updated now |
| 20:48:30 | <tempate> | I knew there had to be a way to do that |
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| 20:49:38 | <tempate> | To be completely honest I'm still sort of confused as to how the `.` works |
| 20:49:41 | <ski> | if you don't like the brackets piling up at the end, you could possibly say something like |
| 20:50:06 | <ski> | (show . sum . map (fromEnum . policy1)) passwords |
| 20:50:17 | <ski> | @src (.) |
| 20:50:17 | <lambdabot> | (f . g) x = f (g x) |
| 20:51:24 | <tempate> | This is the latest version: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/EVARJua5 |
| 20:51:33 | <tempate> | with all the comments you suggested above |
| 20:52:12 | <ski> | (but i don't think there's anything wrong with `show (sum (map (fromEnum . policy1) passwords))', either. and the version with two `map's isn't too terrible, either, since `map' is incremental, and you're even likely to get fusion (so that the intermediate data structure is elided). however, it's good to be aware of such possibilities for refactoring) |
| 20:52:36 | <tempate> | Fantastic |
| 20:52:39 | <tempate> | I wasn't aware, tbh |
| 20:53:55 | × | jamm_ quits (~jamm@unaffiliated/jamm) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 20:54:34 | <tempate> | I was thinking maybe matchIndex i = (str !! (i-1)) == char was potentially better |
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| 20:54:39 | <ski> | tempate : ah, nice. yea, `(/=)' on `Bool' is exclusive disjunction |
| 20:54:48 | <ski> | (and you noticed the missing argument) |
| 20:55:02 | <tempate> | hehe, yeah |
| 20:55:05 | <ski> | strIndex i = str !! (i-1) -- suffices |
| 20:55:30 | <ski> | well, you could do that `matchIndex', if you prefer |
| 20:56:03 | <tempate> | do you think it'd be better? |
| 20:56:17 | <tempate> | there would be less repetition for once |
| 20:56:34 | <ski> | ease of reasoning (equational reasoning, to a large part), refactoring, means that you can often apply them on a by-need basis, since they're, at least comparatively, low-effort |
| 20:58:19 | <ski> | tempate : it might be slightly clearer in this case. but i don't think there's a huge difference. upto personal taste |
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| 20:59:31 | <ski> | another problem is of course that if you reach for `!!' (or even `length'), then you probably shouldn't be using (linked) lists .. but let's ignore that |
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| 21:00:03 | <tempate> | how would you do it? |
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| 21:00:45 | ski | still prefers avoiding redundant brackets in pattern (the `c:cs'), and usually would align them, across multiple defining equations |
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| 21:02:11 | <tempate> | The compiler is bitching about the last two lines |
| 21:02:22 | <tempate> | it doesn't like the whole `.` business |
| 21:03:08 | <ski> | i guess i'd possibly use `Text', or maybe `ByteString'. but since they're presumably not that long, it probably doesn't matter that much, in this case |
| 21:03:31 | <ski> | ah, because you omitted non-redundant brackets :) |
| 21:04:24 | <ski> | (a) construct a chain/pipeline of functions; (b) apply that to an input |
| 21:05:18 | <ski> | (using such composition chains is a bit related to "wholemeal programming", where one focuses on whole data structures at a time, rather than on individual parts of them, that one may be iterating through) |
| 21:05:42 | <tempate> | so what are the needed parenthesis? |
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| 21:08:14 | <ski> | <ski> (show . sum . map (fromEnum . policy1)) passwords |
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| 21:10:02 | <ski> | (some people would write `show . sum . map (fromEnum . policy1) $ passwords' instead. that's definitely to be preferred to `show $ sum $ map (fromEnum . policy1) $ passwords' or something like `show (sum $ map (fromEnum . policy1) $ passwords)'. with a chain with multiple `.'s, you can factor or (or fold back in) any subsequence of compositions of funtions, since `.' is associative. with `$', not so) |
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| 21:11:18 | <tempate> | oh, the closing parenthesis comes before passwords because you're "merging" functions |
| 21:11:20 | <tempate> | ok, got it |
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| 21:12:41 | <tempate> | Thanks again for all the help, ski |
| 21:12:49 | <ski> | no problem :) |
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| 21:47:53 | day_ | is now known as day |
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| 21:50:00 | <koz_> | > [2, 4 .. 8] |
| 21:50:02 | <lambdabot> | [2,4,6,8] |
| 21:50:05 | <koz_> | :D |
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| 22:28:52 | <bbhoss> | could someone explain what I'm missing here? https://replit.com/@bbhoss/RedundantYellowishCopyright#main.hs the error is confusing to me. I understand that find returns a Maybe, it seems it's returning a function t0 MyDataType -> Maybe MyDataType? the t0 is particularly unclear |
| 22:29:20 | <bbhoss> | Couldn't match expected type `Maybe CandidateTally' with actual type `t0 CandidateTally -> Maybe CandidateTally' |
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| 22:31:02 | <bbhoss> | basically the whole goal there is to find the running tally so I can add one to it to count a vote. I've got isCandidateTally which should make predicates for me depending on who the vote was for (the candidate) |
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| 22:33:42 | <ski> | bbhoss : you're missing passing one argument to `find' |
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| 22:34:22 | <bbhoss> | d0h |
| 22:34:44 | <bbhoss> | I wasn't passing the actual running election in |
| 22:34:52 | <bbhoss> | thanks |
| 22:34:55 | <ski> | the type error about not being able to match `Maybe (...)' with `... -> Maybe (...)' immediately suggests missing, or extraneous, argument |
| 22:35:05 | <ski> | (also, there's no reason to use `$' there) |
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| 22:35:54 | <bbhoss> | yeah I guess the t0 threw me off. t is the Traversable? Why is the 0 getting added on? |
| 22:36:44 | <ski> | possibly, during the type inference process, it had already introduced a type variable `t' |
| 22:36:50 | <ski> | @type find |
| 22:36:52 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t => (a -> Bool) -> t a -> Maybe a |
| 22:37:05 | <ski> | the name `t' coming from there, presumably |
| 22:37:16 | <ski> | in your case, you have a list |
| 22:38:03 | <ski> | (so `t'/`t0' is `[]', so that `t a'/`t0 CandidateTally' is `[] CandidateTally' is `[CandidateTally]') |
| 22:38:19 | <ski> | btw, note that |
| 22:38:25 | <ski> | the whole goal there is to find the running tally so I can add one to it to count a vote. I've got isCandidateTally which should make predicates for me depending on who the vote was for (the candidate) |
| 22:38:29 | <ski> | er, sorry |
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| 22:39:07 | <ski> | findCandidateResult candidate election = find (isCandidateTally candidate) election |
| 22:39:21 | <ski> | is, by "function extensionality", equivalent to |
| 22:39:30 | <ski> | findCandidateResult candidate = find (isCandidateTally candidate) |
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| 22:40:19 | <bbhoss> | yep, linter just made that suggestion and I took it. as far as the $ being unnecessary, it seems like it allows me to omit the parentheses? I'm on the fence whether they are better than $ |
| 22:40:19 | <ski> | (since, if `f x = g x', for all `x', then `f' and `g' behaves the same, in the sense of giving equal outputs for equal inputs, and so `f = g') |
| 22:40:36 | <ski> | and then, it is possible to reason further |
| 22:40:41 | <ski> | findCandidateResult candidate = find (isCandidateTally candidate) |
| 22:40:55 | <ski> | = (find . isCandidateTally) candidate |
| 22:41:06 | <ski> | findCandidateResult = find . isCandidateTally |
| 22:41:35 | <ski> | (not saying it's better to rephrase it like that. just that it's possible to do so) |
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| 22:43:04 | <ski> | imho, generally it's not that common (at least compared to how often especially newbies use it) to have a case where `$' improves anything |
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| 22:43:39 | <ski> | (brackets are nothing to be afraid of) |
| 22:44:26 | <__minoru__shirae> | brackets add one thing to remember when parsing |
| 22:45:00 | <ski> | in my mind, brackets are easier to parse |
| 22:45:04 | <__minoru__shirae> | when you meet an opening bracket, you need to put "met opening bracket, expect closing bracket" somewhere in memory |
| 22:45:09 | <ski> | (especially with sane indentation) |
| 22:45:33 | <ski> | with operators, i have to think about relative operator precedence |
| 22:45:43 | <ski> | (and associativity) |
| 22:45:58 | <__minoru__shirae> | but when you meet $, you don't have to expect for other matching character (when it's done right) |
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| 22:46:27 | <ski> | __minoru__shirae : yes, and you pay for that, by the precedence |
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| 22:53:10 | <__minoru__shirae> | speaking of precedence, I tripped over it when trying to implement a list bounds check like this: "min 0 y-1" |
| 22:53:23 | <__minoru__shirae> | and then I started getting -1 |
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| 22:53:58 | <__minoru__shirae> | turnes out you have to say "min 0 (y-1)" |
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| 22:54:23 | <ski> | yep |
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| 22:54:50 | <__minoru__shirae> | can you give an example of screwing up precendence when using % |
| 22:54:57 | <__minoru__shirae> | s/%/$/ |
| 22:54:58 | <ski> | function application binds tighter than any (ordinary) infix operators |
| 22:56:00 | <__minoru__shirae> | err, it should be "max 0 (y-1)" |
| 22:56:52 | <ski> | foo x $ bar baz |
| 22:56:55 | <ski> | <|> quux |
| 22:57:09 | <maralorn> | Is there a simple way to just install (or rather build) a random package from hackage with haskell.nix? |
| 22:57:52 | <__minoru__shirae> | ski: "foo x $ bar baz" translates to "foo x (bar baz)", right? where is the problem here? |
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| 23:01:18 | <ski> | the next line |
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| 23:06:17 | <monochrom> | As usual, my theory of () vs $ is of enjoying algebraic formulas vs resenting (even dissenting) algebraic formulas. |
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| 23:09:57 | <mniip> | locality, eye travel distance, edit distance |
| 23:10:50 | <monochrom> | You will find that, even in the imperative programming world, even 60 years after Fortran, there are still programmers who insist that "tmp1 = x+y; tmp2 = a-b; z = tmp1 * tmp2" is more readable [sic] than "z = (x+y)*(a-b)". Or bigger versions of that. |
| 23:11:21 | <mniip> | that's let k = g x in f x k |
| 23:11:27 | <mniip> | not f x (g x) versus f x $ g x |
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| 23:12:28 | <mniip> | if your x,y,a,b have a bunch of parentheses in them as well, such that you cannot fast-seek over them to discover the top level structure of (_ + _) * (_ - _) |
| 23:12:30 | <mniip> | then that's your problem |
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| 23:21:26 | <__minoru__shirae> | so "foo x $ bar baz <|> quux" translates to "foo x (bar baz <|> quux)" instead of "(foo x (bar baz)) <|> quux", right? |
| 23:21:46 | <__minoru__shirae> | I see "infixl 3" in front of <|> in documentation |
| 23:22:06 | <__minoru__shirae> | how to read that? |
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| 23:22:28 | <__minoru__shirae> | it is left-associative and has precedence of 3 |
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| 23:24:37 | <ski> | yes |
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| 23:26:40 | <mniip> | high precedence means it binds tighter |
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| 23:27:02 | <mniip> | juxtaposition (function application) has precedence of 10 |
| 23:28:22 | <__minoru__shirae> | ok, I see that $ operator's precedence is 0 and it means that it binds less tightly |
| 23:29:03 | <__minoru__shirae> | I found a weird page while looking for that information |
| 23:29:09 | <__minoru__shirae> | look at this: http://amityskills.com/dr-oetker-dlum/haskell-operator-precedence-36cf63 |
| 23:29:22 | <__minoru__shirae> | some garbage text |
| 23:29:33 | <mniip> | looks like SEO |
| 23:31:34 | <mniip> | shower thought: what is instead of syntax that forces tighter binding (parentheses) we had syntax that forces less tight binding |
| 23:31:38 | <mniip> | what if* |
| 23:32:53 | <__minoru__shirae> | like, starting a new line with an operator decreases its precendence |
| 23:33:15 | <mniip> | I was thinking say `+` is + whose precedence has been reduced by 10 |
| 23:33:18 | <mniip> | ``+`` so on |
| 23:33:20 | <bbhoss> | is it possible to pattern match against something using an existing assignment? any special operator or will it just work? |
| 23:33:36 | <mniip> | bbhoss, you mean like f x x = ... ? |
| 23:33:43 | <mniip> | then no |
| 23:33:48 | <ski> | bbhoss : only if it's a data constructor (or pattern synonym) |
| 23:33:58 | <e> | mniip: why not just have [f x] can't be f x, [x + 1] can't be x + 1, etc |
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| 23:34:09 | <ski> | for non-linear patterns like what mniip showed, you need `f x0 x1 | x0 == x1 = ...' |
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| 23:34:26 | <bbhoss> | in this case I'd like to match on an argument value inside of a case |
| 23:34:33 | <mniip> | e, what do you mean |
| 23:34:51 | <e> | mniip: so [a b] c would be a (b c) since you've forbidden (a b) c |
| 23:35:01 | <ski> | similarly, if `x' is already bound, and you want `f x = ...' to only match on that value of `x', rather than binding a new `x' (shadowing the old one), you need `f y | x == y = ...' |
| 23:35:18 | <ski> | bbhoss ^ |
| 23:35:23 | <mniip> | I... don't have an intuitive way of reading that |
| 23:35:42 | <e> | it's a completely ridiculous idea |
| 23:35:51 | <mniip> | I wanted mine to not be |
| 23:36:05 | <e> | maybe there's a non-ridiculous interpretation, that's just what it made me think of |
| 23:36:13 | <e> | instead of specifying the grouping you want, specify the groupings you don't want |
| 23:36:28 | <ski> | (in Erlang (borrowing this from Prolog), mentioning an already bound variable `X' in a pattern would match on its current value. and in Oz, there's a syntax to achieve this, too) |
| 23:36:53 | <mniip> | e, when flattening a tree into a list, I think there's too many trees in the fiber for your idea to work |
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| 23:37:42 | <e> | you might need to be able to specify multiple overlapping disallowed groupings |
| 23:37:44 | <ski> | bbhoss : anyway, you can use guards inside of `case'-`of', as well |
| 23:37:52 | <mniip> | anyway I'm talking about like |
| 23:37:53 | hackage | higgledy 0.4.1.1 - Partial types as a type constructor. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/higgledy-0.4.1.1 (i_am_tom) |
| 23:38:31 | <mniip> | a / b `/` c ``/`` d, a / b `/` c / d, a ``/`` b `/` c / d |
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| 23:38:36 | <monochrom> | There are too many groups I don't want, and only one grouping I want. |
| 23:39:09 | <ski> | i wonder if there's any implemented language that adopts the dot convention, from e.g. early papers by Peano, et al. |
| 23:39:12 | <mniip> | it's like reverse parenthesizing |
| 23:39:36 | <monochrom> | Moreoever, in practice, if you spend 10 pages to rule out what you don't want instead of one sentence saying what you want, your reader would be rightful in thinking that you're trolling. |
| 23:39:43 | <mniip> | ski, which dot? |
| 23:40:11 | <ski> | a + b .*: c - d ./ e |
| 23:40:13 | <ski> | meaning |
| 23:40:24 | <ski> | (a + b) * ((c - d) / e) |
| 23:40:30 | <mniip> | oh |
| 23:40:33 | <mniip> | I remember that |
| 23:40:38 | <olligobber> | wtf is that |
| 23:40:52 | <ski> | olligobber : notation from before there were any (machine) computers |
| 23:40:56 | <__minoru__shirae> | monochrom: I heard some word and forgot it, it means describing god by saying what it's not (and what it's not like). like a "negative description" or something |
| 23:41:06 | <mniip> | basically instead of having fixed precedences for operators, you say |
| 23:41:33 | <mniip> | if you encouter <n dots> operator <m dots>, then the LHS is parsed at precedence n, and the RHS at precedence m |
| 23:42:08 | <e> | ((a / b) / c) / d == a / [b / [c / d]]; (a / b) / (c / d) == a / [b / c] / d; a / (b / (c / d)) == [[a / b] / c] / d |
| 23:42:13 | <ski> | (in practice, it was even a bit more involved, since they also used a bare `.' for multiplication/conjunction) |
| 23:42:16 | <e> | maybe it doesn't work on longer expressions |
| 23:42:26 | <mniip> | controversial but |
| 23:42:29 | <mniip> | I like that dot notation |
| 23:43:26 | <ski> | olligobber : it's used in some early papers on logic |
| 23:44:15 | <monochrom> | I independently invented that dot notation many years ago when replying on haskell-cafe a beginner's flawed wish "how to get rid of parentheses". |
| 23:44:37 | <mniip> | I feel like I've just invented it here above |
| 23:44:45 | <monochrom> | And if I were not so lazy, I would have made a package of it on hackage on an April 1, too. |
| 23:44:49 | <mniip> | except my operators always have the same number of dots on the left and right |
| 23:44:58 | <monochrom> | Yeah me too. |
| 23:45:09 | <e> | it's not too late to change that |
| 23:45:21 | <mniip> | GHC only has 10 precedences |
| 23:45:23 | <mniip> | :( |
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| 23:45:27 | <monochrom> | But I really have better things to do. |
| 23:45:47 | <mniip> | you don't prepare for april fools for years in advance? |
| 23:45:50 | <ski> | absolute precedence levels is the wrong thing anyway, i think |
| 23:46:27 | <ski> | Prolog has 1200 (or maybe it's 1201 ?) precedence levels |
| 23:46:45 | <mniip> | ski, are you suggesting precedence levels settled by inequality constraints? |
| 23:46:59 | <__minoru__shirae> | why not just use fractions for precedence levels instead of 1200 levels |
| 23:47:12 | <mniip> | with A ? B ! C declined as ambiguous if ? and ! aren't (transitively) related |
| 23:47:13 | <e> | mniip: i mean that's how languages with BNF operator definitions do it (effectively) |
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| 23:47:42 | <ski> | mniip : i think, there should probably be a way of specifying abstractly named groups / precedence levels, and to specify individual operators as belonging to such a group |
| 23:47:45 | <mniip> | BNF operator definitions means you have a baked in fixed number of operators |
| 23:47:52 | <ski> | mniip : yea, something like that |
| 23:48:16 | <e> | mniip: not if you allow code to change the BNF at parse time |
| 23:48:32 | <ski> | (semirelatedly, i've toyed a little bit with what would happen if we give up transitivity) |
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| 23:49:04 | <mniip> | you mean explicit productions for going between expr_i and expr_j? |
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| 23:49:58 | <glguy> | I'd like to be able to have a collection of disjoint precedences rather than all operations having to share some common numbering |
| 23:50:00 | <ski> | it seems to me that if `a op0 b op1 c op2 d' parses as `a op0 (b op1 (c op2 d))', then it's reasonable to expect `a op0 bc op2 d' to parse as `a op0 (bc op2 d)' (assuming `a',`b',`bc',`c',`d' are all atomic, say) |
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| 23:50:07 | <e> | mniip: yeah |
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| 23:50:50 | <ski> | mniip : in a sense, brackets are already a (blessed) way of putting transitivity aside |
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| 23:51:03 | <mniip> | brackets are the reverse kind of |
| 23:51:11 | <mniip> | it's like you're in a derived category |
| 23:51:31 | <ski> | glguy : yes, please |
| 23:51:51 | <glguy> | How far back to I have to read to see the original idea/question? :) |
| 23:51:58 | <e> | what happens when you mix disconnect precedence levels? |
| 23:52:13 | <mniip> | glguy, my issue is that parentheses are circumfix notation and require a lot of eye travel and edit distance |
| 23:52:27 | <glguy> | mniip, if things get hard to read you name things |
| 23:52:38 | <mniip> | cope |
| 23:52:38 | <e> | names are for the weak |
| 23:53:10 | <glguy> | e, you use parentheses to be explicit when the implicitness of precedences isn't available due to them being disjoint for any particular pair of operators |
| 23:53:17 | <monochrom> | Time to admit that serialized linear stream of ASCII bytes fails to preserve even the static, lexical structure of a program. |
| 23:53:41 | <e> | so far everything else does it worse |
| 23:53:52 | <mniip> | formal systems weren't supposed to be based on lists of symbols |
| 23:53:56 | <mniip> | they're trees! |
| 23:54:11 | <glguy> | e, like I'd prefer that bit-wise and arithemtic operators were simply incomparable and you had to use parentheses to mix them, or name stuff |
| 23:54:13 | <mniip> | but mathematicians are too fixated on natural numbers to see other, equally valid inductive constructions |
| 23:54:36 | <mniip> | glguy, also disconnect arithmetic and control flow operators |
| 23:54:49 | <glguy> | && being a control-flow operator? |
| 23:54:55 | <mniip> | I was thinking >>= |
| 23:54:57 | <monochrom> | True that. Mathematicians haven't even caught up to serialized linear stream of ASCII bytes. |
| 23:54:58 | <glguy> | ah, yeah, that too |
| 23:55:01 | ski | . o O ( "Precedences in Specifications and Implementations of Programming Languages" by Annika Aasa in 1991,1995 at <https://web.archive.org/web/20070701130745/http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~annika/plilp91.ps>,<https://web.archive.org/web/20070701130745/http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~annika/tcs95.ps> ; <https://web.archive.org/web/20070701130745/http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~annika/> ) |
| 23:55:24 | <mniip> | monochrom, I mean there's Sigma^* |
| 23:55:35 | <mniip> | the set of words in alphabet Sigma |
| 23:55:46 | <monochrom> | I love it when Scott Aaronson made a joke about Gödel numbering. |
| 23:56:02 | <mniip> | somehow mathematically it makes more sense to consider it as a fibration over lengths |
| 23:56:09 | <mniip> | rather than the (obvious) inductive list |
| 23:56:23 | <mniip> | and with inductive lists you're one degree away from inductive trees |
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| 23:57:47 | <monochrom> | Not exact wording but: "I have a math friend who was learning programming and needed to use an array. He hadn't learned that arrays were already provided. So he invented arrays himself: represent <a, b, c> by 2^a 3^b 5^c." |
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| 23:58:34 | <slack1256> | Nice |
| 23:58:42 | <monochrom> | (In the book Quantum Computing Since Democritus) |
| 23:58:49 | <ski> | should have used diagonals |
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