Logs on 2021-03-23 (freenode/#haskell)
| 00:02:45 | <forp> | Monads are used in FP as a workaround to producing side-effects. Would you say then monads are useful outside FP? |
| 00:03:09 | <Axman6> | monads are not a workaround for anything |
| 00:03:29 | <Axman6> | if you program in any language, you use monads every day, you just don't call them what they are |
| 00:03:46 | <Axman6> | because of this, the answer to your question is categorically yes |
| 00:03:46 | <forp> | Axman6, can you give an example |
| 00:04:06 | <pjb> | Well, there are implicit monads, (or not, depending on the formal semantics), but you could also have explicit monads. |
| 00:04:23 | <Axman6> | every time you interact with the outside world in a program, every time you deal with pointers which may be null, every time you write a for loop over the items in an array |
| 00:05:06 | <forp> | None of that is a monad. |
| 00:05:16 | <forp> | I think you may be yourself looking through Haskell tinted glasses |
| 00:05:18 | <Axman6> | all of those are monads |
| 00:06:13 | <Axman6> | the premise of your question shows you aren't very familiar with what monads are, so why would you think I'm not? |
| 00:06:15 | <addem[m]> | I never fully got what a monad was. I think they're something like, any type with a bind and a return. So to put it reductively it's one kind of a signature for a module (possibly speaking OCaml here since I know that language slightly more). |
| 00:06:16 | <addem[m]> | But what the hell do I know, amirite? |
| 00:06:21 | <forp> | They really aren't. Just because you need a monad for this in Haskell isn't a proof that everyone does |
| 00:06:27 | <forp> | A monad is an API in haskell |
| 00:06:30 | <forp> | Not the implementation |
| 00:07:13 | <Axman6> | suit yourself |
| 00:07:32 | <Axman6> | the monad type class does not define what a monad is though |
| 00:07:35 | nighmi | is all-suited |
| 00:07:46 | <forp> | Axman6, it defines an interface. |
| 00:08:27 | <forp> | Axman6, I just don't think when I, say, to write_file('file.txt', 'Hello') I'm doing anything that fits the definition of a monad |
| 00:08:47 | <Axman6> | there are many things which are monads which we can't imeplement an instance for Monad in Haskell, it's a much more general concept than the Haskell concept |
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| 00:10:48 | <Axman6> | forp: have you ever used a ? operator in any OO language? foo.bar?baz.quux?id? |
| 00:11:34 | <forp> | Axman6, null coalescing? |
| 00:11:38 | <Axman6> | yes |
| 00:12:08 | <Axman6> | it implements exactly the behaviour of the Maybe monad |
| 00:12:22 | <forp> | It does, but does it do it through a monad |
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| 00:12:59 | <nighmi> | "through" may not be the best preposition here |
| 00:13:13 | <forp> | forp, essentially I wonder if creating Monad types is worth it outside FP. |
| 00:13:28 | <forp> | forp, one "monadic" construction I can think of is Promises |
| 00:13:29 | <Axman6> | have you ever wruitten code which did out = []; for(x in anArray) { for(b in anotherArray) { out.pushBack(someSomethingWith(a,b)); }}? |
| 00:13:34 | <forp> | Axman6* |
| 00:13:53 | <Axman6> | that's the list monad |
| 00:14:26 | <forp> | Okay thanks |
| 00:15:29 | <Axman6> | forp: you might find this useful: https://codon.com/refactoring-ruby-with-monads |
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| 00:15:51 | <forp> | Thanks Axman6 |
| 00:16:13 | <Axman6> | which is one of my favourite resourtces for helping people "get" what it is to be monadic, without using HAskell |
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| 00:22:56 | <javran> | Hi folks, I have a simple instance of Contravariant: https://github.com/Javran/unicode-general-category/blob/master/src/Data/Char/GeneralCategory/Predicates.hs#L79-L88 I'm wondering if this is easy to do with Generics (I have little to none experience regarding Generics) |
| 00:23:16 | <forp> | Axman6, this is a good talk I didn't expect |
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| 00:25:04 | <Axman6> | javran: unless you need to do it for lots of types it's probably not worth the effort - I'm guessing Contravariant can't be automatically derived using another mechanism easily either :\ |
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| 00:25:52 | <dmwit> | Huh, Contravariant is in base now. Neat. |
| 00:26:07 | <dmwit> | Looks like it already has instances for the relevant Generic stuff, too. |
| 00:27:06 | <javran> | dmwit: yes, that's when I started to wonder - I tried `contramap f p = to (contramap f (from p))`, which didn't work. |
| 00:27:23 | <Axman6> | shouldn't be too hard to add support for deriving it like Functor right? |
| 00:27:31 | <javran> | I probably won't bother to actually do it for such a simple case, just wondering. |
| 00:27:42 | <Axman6> | it makes me sad that doesn't work :( |
| 00:27:53 | <monochrom> | Axman6, forp: "for(a in anArray) { for(b in anotherArray)" would just need the list Applicative; for full use of the list Monad, make "anotherArray" a function of a. |
| 00:27:56 | <Axman6> | that instance should totally be in Generic though |
| 00:28:13 | <Axman6> | monochrom: shhh :) |
| 00:28:22 | <monochrom> | OK! |
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| 00:29:45 | ski | . o O ( "Escaping Hell with Monads" by Philip Nilsson in 2017-05-08 at <https://philipnilsson.github.io/Badness10k/escaping-hell-with-monads/> ) |
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| 00:31:11 | <monochrom> | Heh badness 10000 = TeX overflow |
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| 00:35:01 | <Axman6> | javran: what's this project for anyway? |
| 00:35:50 | j | is now known as jess |
| 00:36:04 | <javran> | Axman6: a byproduct as my adventure towards a Java parser using Alex/Happy :) |
| 00:36:40 | <javran> | it's basically just Data.Char.generalCategory but with Unicode 13.0.0 database |
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| 00:36:59 | <javran> | (since Java SE 15+ Spec calls for Unicode 13) |
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| 00:37:33 | <Axman6> | fun :) you could combine this with dibblego's javaclass package: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/javaclass-0.0.1/docs/Language-Java-Class-ClassFile.html |
| 00:38:46 | <javran> | Thanks for the link, I'll take a note of that |
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| 00:39:02 | <Axman6> | javran: also, do you reckon this might be useful for Data.Char? |
| 00:39:19 | <Axman6> | javran: that package is pure craziness (Sorry Tony) |
| 00:39:51 | <dibblego> | yeah it was a crazy time |
| 00:40:19 | <Axman6> | sure was |
| 00:40:22 | <javran> | I'm not sure what other use could it have though - just to untie Unicode depedency from any specific GHC version |
| 00:40:38 | <dibblego> | I'd do it differently today, but not a lot |
| 00:41:04 | <javran> | as base ships with its own Unicode database, which is manually updated and outdated a bit these days |
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| 00:41:23 | <Axman6> | yeah I wondered how out of date it was |
| 00:41:45 | <javran> | The file is libraries/base/cbits/WCsubst.c |
| 00:41:54 | <javran> | (In GHC repo) |
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| 00:43:09 | <javran> | speak of which I'm not sure how performant GHC version is doing - for now it's not supercritical so I just binary-search a unboxed Array, wondering why is this bit in C |
| 00:44:07 | <Axman6> | I've been meaning for a few weeks to rewrite bits of https://github.com/BobSteagall/utf_utils in Haskell for the text-utf8 package |
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| 00:46:20 | <Axman6> | I have a PR that I didn't quite finish off for navigating utf8 encoded data that was 100x faster than take and drop using stream fusion using SIMDish ideas, but never finished off the last part |
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| 00:52:04 | <dmwit> | oh |
| 00:52:10 | <dmwit> | Yet Another String (tm) |
| 00:52:55 | <dmwit> | At some point all these add is frequent interconversions. To really be an efficiency win your whole infrastructure has to agree on a single choice. |
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| 00:54:54 | <dmwit> | What happened with backpack? Where is the string-adapter pack? |
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| 00:57:43 | <Axman6> | well text-utf8 was intended to be a replacement for text eventually once it proved itself. what I really want is text-utf8 with a concise structure to give O(1) indexing - newhoggy's got a package that could allow that pretty easily |
| 00:58:42 | <Axman6> | and the space overhead would be like something like 0.25% or something crazy like that |
| 00:59:58 | <Axman6> | uh, succinct, not concise |
| 01:00:03 | <dmwit> | I figured. |
| 01:01:18 | Axman6 | thinks concise would be a good name for a library of succinct data structures |
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| 01:11:41 | <bobweb> | Hi. I have this problem: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/enFWKfUv. Please help me to define an Applicative instance for a product datatype. Thank you. |
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| 01:14:51 | <monochrom> | IIRC you need to start with "instance Monoid a => Applicative (Const a b)". You need the "Monoid a" assumption. Then you will find that the rest is a breeze. |
| 01:15:17 | <monochrom> | IOW you will find that a's mempty and mappend very useful. |
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| 01:16:13 | <c_wraith> | the problem is the definition of pure - I think you just lost track of what you were doing |
| 01:16:30 | <bobweb> | OK, now that I've posted I've seen some clue in the text along the lines of what you mention. Thank you. If not, I'll be back... |
| 01:16:47 | <bobweb> | yes, noob-itis... |
| 01:17:12 | <c_wraith> | But yeah, listen to monochrom. This needs Monoid, not just Semigroup |
| 01:17:27 | <bobweb> | OK. |
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| 01:22:58 | <bobweb> | monochrom: and c_wraith: Thank you, it works now. |
| 01:23:05 | <monochrom> | :) |
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| 01:53:57 | <gnumonic> | Hello. I'm writing some TH and I was wondering if there was a way to express the "{}" in TH (I dunno what it's called. Field wildcard?) that you'd use if you wanted to match on a constructor while ignoring its fields (eg "SomeConstr {} -> y" |
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| 01:58:52 | <glguy> | recP name [] |
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| 02:01:05 | <gnumonic> | Thanks! I think that'll work. For some reason I thought I had to use ConP. |
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| 02:59:55 | <qih> | Hi, I am using https://www.stephendiehl.com/posts/vim_2016.html to configure a Vim for Haskell, but I've run into an issue with 'stack install hlint ghc-mod', the system reports that I have the incorrect version of GHC to do this. I installed the current GHC using Stack. What is the issue? |
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| 03:03:54 | <qih> | This is the pastebin re the issue => https://pastebin.com/tzm75a4j |
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| 03:05:03 | <Axman6> | so accoring to hackage, ghc-mod is deprecated |
| 03:05:07 | <Axman6> | according* |
| 03:05:47 | <dmwit> | Anyway, the issue is probably that you need to specify an older resolver when installing hlint+ghc-mod. |
| 03:05:50 | <Axman6> | can't you use HLS with vim? |
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| 03:06:55 | <dmwit> | Yeah, LSP is probably the way to go now. |
| 03:07:42 | <qih> | Axman6: You can, am just reading on the 'Coc' setup, or https://github.com/haskell/haskell-language-server |
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| 03:08:03 | <qih> | Thanks for the advice. |
| 03:08:44 | <guest323> | if f = fix F, F f n = f (pred n), and F f n = F f (pred n), are equal? |
| 03:09:29 | <Axman6> | assuming F isn't actually a data constructor? |
| 03:09:57 | <Axman6> | those don't look equal to me though |
| 03:09:59 | <guest323> | F is just a function |
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| 03:10:43 | <Axman6> | might help to make that clear by not using uppercase names, since that's not a valid name for a non-constructor function |
| 03:11:02 | <Axman6> | and is pred here, this one? |
| 03:11:03 | <Axman6> | :t pred |
| 03:11:05 | <lambdabot> | Enum a => a -> a |
| 03:11:39 | <guest323> | if f = fix g, g f n = f (pred n), and f n = g f (pred n), are equal? ok? |
| 03:12:33 | <Axman6> | I think you could prove that one way or the other pretty easily by evaluating it |
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| 03:15:14 | <dmwit> | guest323: I don't think so. What reasoning did you use to get there? |
| 03:16:07 | <dmwit> | Ah, I'm wrong. Yes, f n = g f (pred n) = f (pred (pred n)). |
| 03:17:03 | <dmwit> | But I think it's possible you've made a mistake anyway. Because that doesn't look like a natural equation to arrive at to me. Here's the sequence that looks natural to me: |
| 03:17:19 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | Could someone explain the haskell logo to me? I can make out the h,a,s, and sort of the k, maaaybe an e, but the two Ls? |
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| 03:18:04 | <Axman6> | it's a combination of a lambda and the >>= operator |
| 03:18:13 | <infinisil> | I don't think it's meant to say haskell |
| 03:18:47 | <heck-to-the-gnom> | huh, I must be reaching for straws with the h,a,s,k,e,l,l stuff then |
| 03:18:51 | <dmwit> | guest323: https://gist.github.com/dmwit/dbeea223d0de082906b3d50d2c28d790 |
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| 03:19:53 | <guest323> | it's interesting, that h,a,s,k,e,l,l could be a,s,k,h,e,l,l |
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| 03:20:31 | <dmwit> | guest323: From there you can go `f n = f (pred n) = f (pred (pred n))` and then undo the definition of `g` to get `f (pred (pred n)) = g f (pred n)`. But it's pretty convoluted, and a simpler explanation of the equation you wrote is that you made a small mistake when expanding the definition of fix. |
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| 03:23:35 | <dmwit> | (Or, well, there's other ways to get there, too, of course. I'd be interested to see what reasoning you used. I'm much more excited about checking a *proof* than checking a potentially-provable *equality*.) |
| 03:25:15 | <guest323> | dmwit: I just stuck in that call fixed-point in callCC create a loop, https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/mMsXX7dcVt/ |
| 03:26:48 | <guest323> | dmwit: f n = fix g n = g (fix g) n = fix g (pred n) = f (pred n) why you wouldn't change fix g to f, so f n= fix g n = g f n |
| 03:27:37 | <guest323> | f n = f (pred n) = g f (pred n) |
| 03:27:37 | <dmwit> | Yep, that's allowed and correct. |
| 03:27:56 | <qih> | I originally install 'Stack' using Snaps, then installed a GHCi using Stack. Installing the Haskell-Language-Server has pulled in Cabal and another version of the GHCi it seems, is this normal? Or am I mis-reading 2 x GHCis? |
| 03:28:12 | <dmwit> | -Yep +Yes |
| 03:29:24 | <dmwit> | qih: I don't know for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me at all. Stack likes to be in control of your GHC installs, and will happily install multiple if you ask for things from resolvers that have different GHC versions in them. |
| 03:29:40 | <guest323> | dmwit: https://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/cont-monad.xhtml |
| 03:30:11 | <qih> | Oh right. It seems to work fine is I use 'stack ghci' with no errors, so I will run with that. |
| 03:30:19 | <qih> | s/is/if |
| 03:30:21 | <guest323> | dmwit: Setjmp, why it jump back |
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| 03:33:16 | <dmwit> | mu |
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| 03:34:47 | <dmwit> | It doesn't jump back. setjmp causes the name `l` to refer to all the code after it, so if you invoke `l`, you invoke all the code after the setjmp. |
| 03:35:24 | <dmwit> | It is always going forward. But going forward may run the same code again. |
| 03:35:31 | <guest323> | dmwit: how that would be possible? |
| 03:35:41 | <guest323> | dmwit: capture all the code after it |
| 03:35:45 | <dmwit> | Well... you have the source code right there. ^_^ |
| 03:36:34 | <guest323> | dmwit: I don't understand it, setjmp is just a callCC code, and the next line `modify (+1)` is not related to callCC at all |
| 03:36:42 | <dmwit> | (I do not think I can write English text that is as clear, concise, and unambiguous as the Haskell code is.) |
| 03:36:56 | <dmwit> | Oh, but the next line *is* related to callCC. |
| 03:37:08 | <guest323> | dmwit: what? |
| 03:37:15 | <guest323> | dmwit: why do you think it's related? |
| 03:37:23 | <dmwit> | Because callCC gives you access to the current continuation at the moment it's called. And at the moment setjmp is invoked, modify (+1) is inside the current continuation. |
| 03:38:23 | <dmwit> | Specifically: the current continuation is `modify (+1) >> get >>= \s -> if s == 5 then return s else l`. |
| 03:38:24 | <guest323> | dmwit: callCC return a Cont r a, but modify (+1) is not the continution which apply on callCC |
| 03:38:47 | <dmwit> | modify (+1) is not the continuation. But it is part of the continuation (see above). |
| 03:40:34 | <dmwit> | Precision: the current continuation is `\l -> modify (+1) >> get >>= \s -> if s == 5 then return s else l`. |
| 03:41:21 | <guest323> | dmwit: what fixed-point is doing here? |
| 03:41:36 | <dmwit> | It is shoving the whole modify chain into the `else` branch. |
| 03:42:01 | <dmwit> | modify;get;if s == 5 then return s else (modify;get;if s == 5 then return s else (...)) |
| 03:42:34 | <guest323> | dmwit: look at the code, I still don't understand why callCC capture the code after it as continuation |
| 03:42:50 | <guest323> | the code after it, they're not passing to it |
| 03:42:52 | <dmwit> | Me neither. But perhaps some day I will internalize MonadCont. |
| 03:42:53 | <guest323> | or apply on it |
| 03:43:15 | <dmwit> | The code after it *is* being passed to it, by the (>>=) operation for ContT. |
| 03:43:57 | <guest323> | I know the intuition, but I just don't undertand why and how |
| 03:44:15 | <dmwit> | m >>= k = ContT $ \ c -> runContT m (\ x -> runContT (k x) c) |
| 03:44:19 | <guest323> | dmwit: I dream to use functions to express this |
| 03:44:37 | <dmwit> | In this line, `k` is the code after the `setjmp`. It is being passed as an argument to `m`. |
| 03:44:37 | <guest323> | so it would be general in all the languages |
| 03:44:55 | <dmwit> | That dream should be achievable. |
| 03:45:23 | <guest323> | dmwit: but it can't be done without understanding |
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| 03:45:33 | <dmwit> | Possibly. |
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| 03:46:26 | <guest323> | first, implement fix in other languages without lazy-eval strategy is possibal? |
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| 03:47:26 | <guest323> | callCC can be written by function |
| 03:48:05 | <guest323> | do notation and >>= can be defined by function |
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| 03:48:52 | <guest323> | data types and functions just are just wrapped and unwrapped |
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| 03:50:57 | <dmwit> | Hm. fix may be tricky in some languages. Usually fix' :: ((a -> b) -> (a -> b)) -> (a -> b) -- the specialization of fix to function type -- is relatively easy. |
| 03:51:38 | <dmwit> | You can often get something *like* fix by using fix' on a `() -> a` function type instead of the flat `a` value type. |
| 03:52:10 | <dmwit> | (This trick -- using `() -> a` as a substitute for a lazy `a` -- is pretty generally useful.) |
| 03:53:43 | <shachaf> | For a non-strict a, at least. |
| 03:55:08 | dmwit | nods |
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| 04:19:54 | <sim590> | how can I import package in ghci? |
| 04:19:59 | <sim590> | something with -package somehting? |
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| 04:20:45 | <Axman6> | I don't think you can do it once you've started a ghci session, you need to start ghci with -package foo (if I'm wrong I would like to know the answer too!) |
| 04:21:01 | <guest323> | sim590: cabal? |
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| 04:21:54 | <sim590> | I don't have the package. I want to do it quick in front of someone. Can I install the package to use it live like cabal install <package>? |
| 04:22:07 | <dmwit> | Axman6: You can :set -package from within ghci. But it has to already be installed of course. |
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| 04:23:12 | <sim590> | Yeah. It's just when I have a project.cabal file, downloads when I build are only local to the project, right? |
| 04:23:22 | <dmwit> | sim590: I think the modern way is `cabal install --libs foo --package-env default && ghci -package-env default`. |
| 04:23:28 | <monochrom> | https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-commands.html#cabal-v2-run and scroll a bit down for "also supports running script files". This is the fastest way including least learning. |
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| 04:24:00 | <sclv> | You can also cabal repl and pass it packages |
| 04:24:24 | <sclv> | and it’ll launch the repl with packages in scope |
| 04:24:27 | <dmwit> | Wait, how? |
| 04:24:34 | <dmwit> | I feel like I've tried and failed to do that in the past. |
| 04:25:03 | <sclv> | cabal repl —build-depends containers |
| 04:25:07 | <sclv> | Iirc |
| 04:25:17 | <sim590> | Weird. It says http://ix.io/2TOK when I'm trying to cabal install --libs random |
| 04:25:18 | <monochrom> | "cabal v2-repl --build-depends "vector >= 0.12 && < 0.13"" from https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-commands.html#cabal-v2-repl |
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| 04:25:54 | <monochrom> | s/--libs/--lib/ |
| 04:26:12 | <sim590> | Oh OK. Thanks! |
| 04:27:31 | <dmwit> | sclv: ooooh, I was trying `--constraint`. |
| 04:27:48 | <dmwit> | Well this is great. |
| 04:27:53 | <sim590> | Weird. It just said "up to date" when I installed it, but earlier, it said it couldn't load the package. Anyway, now it's there. weird. |
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| 04:29:51 | <monochrom> | The other thing I learned recently is that if you don't want those chatty messages "downloading... building... up to date... using environment file..." you can use -v0. This can be important if you're feeding stdout to another program that gets confused by those messages. |
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| 05:09:26 | <chibi> | Hello. Is it normal for V2 from the linear package to take up a lot of time/RAM? |
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| 05:10:18 | <chibi> | I have 4 calls to V2 in a ~350 line application and it took up 25% of all time and ~40% of all my RAM |
| 05:10:59 | <chibi> | ...which was only for about 16 seconds, I tried running it longer but it ends up causing an OOM crash after like 40 seconds and I have to reboot :P |
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| 05:18:05 | <dmwit> | What an odd question. I don't think I have ever written a program for which V2 took up a lot of time/RAM, so no, it's definitely not normal. |
| 05:18:20 | <dmwit> | But then using V2 in the first place is not normal, because I don't think I have ever written a program that used it. |
| 05:19:07 | <dmwit> | In the grand scheme of things, programming at all probably is not normal. |
| 05:25:05 | <chibi> | Heh, that's true. I'm using the SDL graphics library, and one of it's data types is a Rectangle type that uses V2, so that's why I'm using it. Profile log says that's all fmap's fault so... |
| 05:25:22 | <edwardk> | chibi: what are you doing with those V2s is perhaps more the question |
| 05:25:22 | <chibi> | Maybe V2 just has an innefficient fmap implementation? |
| 05:25:40 | <edwardk> | fmap f (V2 a b) = V2 (f a) (f b) |
| 05:25:48 | <edwardk> | and V2 is strict in both args |
| 05:26:28 | dmwit | wonders if edwardk's crystal ball is showing him more than dmwit's is |
| 05:26:52 | <chibi> | Lemme just share the two functions I'm calling it from |
| 05:26:53 | <edwardk> | you might be fmapping with some big scary computation but most things folks wind up fmapping over that type for sdl purposes are little things like swapping out CInts for Ints and the like |
| 05:26:55 | <dmwit> | chibi: More directly: if you want help, you're probably gonna have to do some minimizing and share some code. |
| 05:27:20 | <edwardk> | V2 is rather deliberately quite boring |
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| 05:28:18 | <edwardk> | to the point that when linear switches over to run on top the new distributive it'll be able to be generated almost entirely automatically |
| 05:28:19 | <edwardk> | https://github.com/ekmett/distributive/blob/main/distributive/src/Data/Rep/Internal.hs#L1966 |
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| 05:28:59 | <chibi> | https://p.sicp.me/bA6iE.hs |
| 05:29:05 | <chibi> | This code's hacky all over mind |
| 05:29:16 | <chibi> | So apologies for that to start with |
| 05:29:42 | <chibi> | 3> |
| 05:30:26 | <edwardk> | nothing there looks too slow. there's a few things i'd change like ent^.entPos^._1 to ent^.entPos._1 |
| 05:30:57 | <chibi> | The one thing that might be ig here is multiplying and rouning those floating point values *160, would that be enough to cause those functions to eat up resources like that? |
| 05:31:06 | <edwardk> | and you could proably use an iso between (a,a) and V2 a to get both halves of the Pos at a time |
| 05:31:30 | <edwardk> | but none of that should be super slow |
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| 05:32:20 | <dmwit> | ...or just store a V2 in Static in the first place |
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| 05:32:27 | <edwardk> | or that, yes |
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| 05:33:13 | <dmwit> | How confident are you that this code is the bad code? |
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| 05:34:02 | <edwardk> | this code doesn't seem to do much to be remotely concerned about |
| 05:34:17 | <dmwit> | kinda why I ask, yeah |
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| 05:35:36 | <chibi> | Intersting, I guess I'll have to fiddle with that a bunch more to see what exactly is causing the OOM crashing. I find it weird too, but thats what the output of +RTS -p is saying |
| 05:35:54 | <edwardk> | i mean the worst thing you do is walk and grab halves of entpos/size separately rather than together, but thats only a factor of 2-4x on something that should do almost nothing |
| 05:36:05 | <chibi> | 3>...or just store a V2 in Static in the first place |
| 05:36:13 | <chibi> | That's what a good programmer would do :) |
| 05:36:23 | <edwardk> | you could store a whole rectangle in there even |
| 05:36:24 | <edwardk> | ;) |
| 05:37:41 | <dmwit> | At this rate if you hang out a bit longer I think we can just delete all of your code. |
| 05:37:47 | <edwardk> | anyways V2 isn't doing any appreciable work here |
| 05:38:22 | <chibi> | Then maybe this code snippet is getting called too often? |
| 05:38:26 | <chibi> | COST CENTRE MODULE SRC %time %alloc |
| 05:38:29 | <chibi> | fmap Linear.V2 src/Linear/V2.hs:159:3-34 31.3 43.7 |
| 05:38:30 | <edwardk> | i've found that deleting all my code especially before i release it is a great way to cut maintenance burden |
| 05:38:58 | <edwardk> | chibi: keep in mind you aren't the only customer of V2. SDL is using it internally a bunch too |
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| 05:40:23 | <chibi> | Yeah, that's true as well. Time for the scientific method it seems. |
| 05:40:30 | <chibi> | Thanks for the help. |
| 05:40:33 | <edwardk> | https://github.com/ekmett/linear/blob/master/src/Linear/V2.hs#L162 is the fmap in question |
| 05:40:42 | <edwardk> | it literally can't do anything less than it does |
| 05:41:37 | <edwardk> | it is probably however being charged all the costs for all the f's that are being fmapped over it though |
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| 05:42:06 | <chibi> | Yeah, it's definitely not the fmap itself. |
| 05:43:10 | <edwardk> | one reason wy fmap is probably showing up at the cost center is that V2 is strict in its args, and fmap is constructing the result V2, forcing the args as it goes. so its viewed as the thing that forces the results, not just something passing an unevaluated thunk into a structure to hit some later victim. |
| 05:43:44 | <edwardk> | so all the work of every f being mapped anywhere by any user of V2 is being charged to that one cost center |
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| 05:44:05 | <edwardk> | unsurprisingly this might yield a large number |
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| 05:47:36 | <chibi> | Ahh okay, so that's just how strictness ends up looking to the profiler |
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| 07:28:55 | <slack1256> | Has someone used the haskell language server for developing GHC itself? |
| 07:29:10 | <slack1256> | I think there will be problems as ghc is not cabal based. |
| 07:29:25 | <Uniaika> | yeah it's a tad weird |
| 07:29:41 | <Uniaika> | but you better ask on #haskell-language-server |
| 07:29:47 | <slack1256> | Got it. |
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| 08:23:18 | <tomsmeding> | "23:32:15 * | hpc . o O ( a haskell program that tells you what ghc version it was built with, using only compilation bugs )" |
| 08:23:25 | <tomsmeding> | hpc: you were kidding, but https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/139243/determine-your-languages-version |
| 08:23:44 | <tomsmeding> | okay it's not all compiler bugs |
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| 08:25:00 | <tomsmeding> | shapr: I'm the worst when it comes to thinking of ideas for events/whatnot, which is why I am quick to applaud ideas from others :p |
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| 08:30:14 | <loyon> | is there a simple tool that would run `cabal build` everytime I make changes? I mean something light which works on the filesystem, not a full IDE integration. |
| 08:31:26 | <opqdonut> | wasn't ghcid supposed to be something like that |
| 08:31:53 | <opqdonut> | I've never used it tho |
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| 08:32:25 | <tomsmeding> | loyon: try ghcid, assuming you want it for error feedback |
| 08:32:30 | <opqdonut> | this might be interesting as well https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/5252 |
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| 08:35:15 | <loyon> | thanks all I'll look into those! ghcid looks exactly like that indeed. |
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| 08:37:09 | <loyon> | also, I just remember `entr` which is a pretty generic C tool that allow doing such things. |
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| 08:40:28 | <olligobber> | tomsmeding, I have that but python? |
| 08:40:29 | <slack1256> | I wrote a script using inotify once. I think `entr` uses that. |
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| 08:41:21 | <olligobber> | `len("ㅤ ㅤ\x20a".split())' |
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| 08:42:18 | <loyon> | slack1256: yeah exactly, I used to do that too :-) |
| 08:42:38 | <loyon> | even did it in haskell at some point, that was more fun than with bash |
| 08:42:57 | <loyon> | but it seems `entr` is very flexible, for now working like a charm |
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| 09:02:00 | <tomsmeding> | olligobber: you have what, exactly? |
| 09:02:41 | <olligobber> | tomsmeding, a file that tells you what version you used |
| 09:03:11 | <tomsmeding> | ah yes, the CGSE topic I linked has a couple of python submissions as well |
| 09:03:23 | <tomsmeding> | note that I believe literally querying the version, if possible, is disallowed |
| 09:03:26 | <tomsmeding> | in that question |
| 09:03:40 | <olligobber> | but calling len and split on a string should be fine |
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| 09:17:40 | <olligobber> | ok, posted my golf there: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/139243/determine-your-languages-version/221122#221122 |
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| 09:28:56 | <olligobber> | wait I can shave off 4 bytes |
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| 09:33:45 | <fendor> | if a type implements an additional type class, does that warrant a major version bump? |
| 09:34:07 | <merijn> | fendor: If it's not an orphan, I'd say no |
| 09:34:43 | <merijn> | fendor: But consult the PVP flowchart? :p |
| 09:34:47 | <merijn> | fendor: https://pvp.haskell.org/ |
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| 09:35:21 | <fendor> | merijn, that's a good flowchart, so far I always only read the first page of that site |
| 09:35:22 | <fendor> | thanks! |
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| 09:57:01 | Guest38849 | is now known as zzz |
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| 09:59:42 | <zzz> | hello my people. I did "import Primes" at the top of the file and "cabal install primes --lib". I'm getting "could not find module 'Primes'". what am I missing? |
| 10:00:48 | <merijn> | zzz: The fact that "cabal install primes" isn't really the way to make packages available to your program/code |
| 10:01:20 | <zzz> | where can i educate myself on the true ways of haskell? |
| 10:01:25 | <merijn> | zzz: What you'd really wanna do is make a minimal .cabal file and add primes as build-depends in it. You can run "cabal init --interactive" to generate one |
| 10:01:55 | <merijn> | zzz: See also: https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/latest/getting-started.html |
| 10:02:28 | <zzz> | much appreciated |
| 10:04:14 | <merijn> | zzz: Basically, because global package installs usually turn into a mess of conflicting things on different projects, cabal doesn't have a global notion of "installed", but selectively makes a set of package available to projects, so projects can never conflict (think of it at kinda automatic and dynamic virtualenvs if you're familiar with those) |
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| 10:06:07 | <zzz> | what have i done exactly by running "cabal install package --lib" ? |
| 10:08:14 | <merijn> | zzz: I fibbed, because there *is* sort of a global install thing, but it's not really finished/usable yet. So "install --lib" does a kinda half-baked global install, but the usability of *using* it isn't really finished/done :) |
| 10:09:46 | <zzz> | understood |
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| 10:14:45 | <merijn> | zzz: For a quick way to get a ghci session with a package you can also do "cabal repl --build-depends=primes" to get a ghci with that packages available |
| 10:15:16 | <merijn> | But in general you'll want to use a .cabal file for non-trivial packages/code anyway |
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| 10:35:36 | <rond_> | Hi! What is a 'literal'? I've stumbled upon this term with no definition |
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| 10:35:54 | <shachaf> | What's the context? |
| 10:36:17 | <shachaf> | It probably means somthing like a number or a string written out in source code (i.e. a literal value, rather than a variable referring to a value). |
| 10:36:31 | <Uniaika> | rond_: 1, or "string" |
| 10:36:37 | <rond_> | All literal constants are of primitive type. |
| 10:36:38 | <rond_> | Literals of algebraic type are expressed by giving an explicit application of a constructor. |
| 10:36:50 | <rond_> | Uniaika that's hardly a definition... |
| 10:36:59 | <Uniaika> | because I gave you an example ;) |
| 10:37:02 | <rond_> | what about [1,2,3] ? |
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| 10:37:25 | <Uniaika> | yeah it's a list litteral |
| 10:37:34 | <peanut_> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-8.10.2/docs/Literal.html |
| 10:37:59 | <shachaf> | What's the full context? |
| 10:38:02 | <shachaf> | Is this the STG paper? |
| 10:38:08 | <rond_> | yes |
| 10:38:22 | <shachaf> | It looks like page 20 says what literals are. |
| 10:38:24 | <rond_> | I didn't know that it would be known here :O |
| 10:38:58 | <shachaf> | Oh, no, I guess they use it in a more general way later on. |
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| 10:39:02 | <rond_> | Exactly! |
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| 10:39:08 | <rond_> | without a definition... |
| 10:39:38 | <rond_> | literal == data value - do you think it's justified? |
| 10:39:44 | <rond_> | Since everything is immutable... ? |
| 10:39:45 | <peanut_> | [1,2,3] is a list of integer literals, I don't think the list is a literal itself |
| 10:39:50 | <shachaf> | OK, my reading is, when they say "literal", they mean something of a primitive type, like integers. |
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| 10:40:14 | <shachaf> | And maybe other things if you add them to your language, but I don't think their simple language has that. |
| 10:40:29 | <rond_> | So "Literals of algebraic type are expressed by giving an explicit application of a constructor." basically refers to boxed IntegeR? |
| 10:40:41 | <shachaf> | That one sentence about literals of algebraic data types is saying that things like [1,2,3] -- or even "abc" -- don't count as literals. |
| 10:40:49 | <shachaf> | Or Integer, sure. |
| 10:41:19 | <rond_> | Why [1,2,3] doesn't fall into "expressed by giving an explicit application of a constructor." ? |
| 10:41:25 | <shachaf> | Because [1,2,3] is actually "Cons 1 (Cons 2 (Cons 3 Nil))", and only the values of primitive types are literals. |
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| 10:41:48 | <shachaf> | It does -- in context, that sentence is saying those things *don't* count as literals, I think. |
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| 10:42:28 | <rond_> | My understanding is "Literals of algebraic type are" means that we have 2 distinguishable types of literals |
| 10:43:33 | <shachaf> | This is my reading: All literal constants are of primitive type; [what you might, in another context, call "]literals of algebraic type["] are expressed by giving an explicit application of a constructor. |
| 10:43:40 | <rond_> | All literal constants are of primitive type. |
| 10:43:40 | <rond_> | Literals of algebraic type are expressed by giving an explicit application of a constructor. |
| 10:43:41 | <rond_> | Don't you read it as |
| 10:43:41 | <rond_> | "1. Literal constants are:... |
| 10:43:42 | <rond_> | 2. Literals of algebraic type are..." |
| 10:43:42 | <rond_> | so two definitions for two distinguishable concepts? |
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| 10:44:11 | <shachaf> | My guess is that this doesn't matter too much for understanding the paper, anyway. |
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| 10:45:43 | <rond_> | Data types are divided into: |
| 10:45:44 | <rond_> | I algebraic data types: introduced explicitly by data declarations. |
| 10:45:44 | <rond_> | I primitive data types: built into the system. |
| 10:45:45 | <rond_> | For the purpose of this paper: |
| 10:45:45 | <rond_> | primitive types == unboxed types |
| 10:45:46 | <rond_> | All literal constants are of primitive type. |
| 10:45:46 | <rond_> | Literals of algebraic type are expressed by giving an explicit application of a constructor. |
| 10:45:47 | <rond_> | All arithmetic built-in operations operate over primitive values (for example +#). |
| 10:45:47 | <rond_> | Definitions for functions operating over non-primitive (i.e. algebraic) values can be |
| 10:45:48 | <rond_> | expressed directly in the STG language, and hence do not need to be built in. |
| 10:45:48 | <rond_> | That's what I want to say. And in order to be precise, I'd like to make sure I understand the term "algebraic data types" correctly. |
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| 10:47:24 | <rond_> | So the question is: "Literal of algebraic type" means "an instance of any algebraic data type" or "an instance of algebraic data type that is a boxed representation of a primitive data type" |
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| 10:51:59 | <rond_> | shachaf do you know which one is true? Or do you stand by "it doesn't matter and move on" ? |
| 10:53:16 | <shachaf> | My guess is that the one sentence you're quoting is using "literal" in a colloquial sense rather than the sense defined in the paper. |
| 10:53:43 | <rond_> | What's the colloquial sense here? |
| 10:53:45 | <shachaf> | I think if you run into any specific case where the word "literal" is used, it'll be easy to figure it out in context if it's not that. |
| 10:53:57 | <shachaf> | So it's probably not a big deal. |
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| 10:54:24 | <shachaf> | The colloquial sense is fuzzy, and might include "abc" or might not, etc. -- the idea is just that it's a constant value. |
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| 10:56:24 | <rond_> | I see, however, in immutable language such as Haskell, everything has constant (when eventually computed), right? |
| 10:56:35 | <rond_> | has constant value* |
| 10:57:50 | <rond_> | anyway, for the purpose of what I'm trying to say I think it'll be sufficient to interpret 'algebraic literal' as 'boxed primitive' |
| 10:57:50 | <peanut_> | GHC uses string literals as well |
| 10:58:56 | <rond_> | shachaf out of curiosity, how did you end up reading the paper? I thought it's a rather unpopular one\ |
| 10:59:23 | <shachaf> | "literal" is a syntactic property. |
| 10:59:41 | <shachaf> | There's a node in the syntax tree which is an integer value or something. |
| 11:00:02 | <shachaf> | I don't know, isn't this paper a classic? |
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| 11:00:11 | <shachaf> | It's been years since I last looked at it. |
| 11:01:08 | <rond_> | Do you have a spare minute to discuss one more thing about this paper? |
| 11:02:26 | <rond_> | expression: |
| 11:02:27 | <rond_> | (f x) + y |
| 11:02:27 | <rond_> | CPS form: |
| 11:02:28 | <rond_> | f x (\fx. + fx y (\r. k r)) |
| 11:02:28 | <rond_> | A lazy version of CPS would require the suspended computation inside a thunk to be a |
| 11:02:29 | <rond_> | function taking a continuation as its argument. So the CPS form would really be |
| 11:02:29 | <rond_> | f x (\fx. force y (\yr. + fx yr (\r. k r))) |
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| 11:03:06 | <rond_> | If my understanding is correct, than the word `force` in the last line is completely obsolete |
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| 11:04:02 | <rond_> | I should've also provided the sentence: |
| 11:04:03 | <rond_> | "where force is the function which forces a thunk (its first argument) by applying it to force’s second argument (the continuation)." |
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| 11:05:25 | <shachaf> | Like I said, it's been a while. |
| 11:05:46 | <shachaf> | Why is force unnecessary? |
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| 11:06:37 | <rond_> | since y is a thunk that takes a continuation, just apply the continuation to it |
| 11:07:06 | <rond_> | which is `(\yr. + fx yr (\r. k r))`. "Take the value of 'yr' (so the value of a a thunk) and do something with it. |
| 11:07:42 | <rond_> | I don't see any need for `force` here |
| 11:07:50 | <rond_> | it's all good expressed with continuations |
| 11:07:54 | <shachaf> | Do they define "force"? Or is this just given an analogy? |
| 11:07:58 | <shachaf> | as an analogy |
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| 11:08:16 | <rond_> | "where force is the function which forces a thunk (its first argument) by applying it to force’s second argument (the continuation)." |
| 11:08:19 | <shachaf> | Based on the surrounding text, you might also ask why "fx" isn't forced. |
| 11:08:43 | <rond_> | Yeah, the asymetry is also troubling here |
| 11:08:55 | <rond_> | hence, with my current understanding, `force` is obsolete |
| 11:09:19 | <curl> | hi, i was researching polynomial rootfinding and i found this; https://byorgey.wordpress.com/2019/02/13/finding-roots-of-polynomials-in-haskell/ |
| 11:09:31 | <shachaf> | My guess is that they're gesturing at the fact that forcing is explicit in STG. |
| 11:10:01 | <shachaf> | And not saying something really precise. |
| 11:10:11 | <curl> | the modern methods involve orthogonal polynomial pencils, such as the colleague matrix, the eigenvalues of which are the roots of the polynomial |
| 11:10:35 | <curl> | the haskell rootfinding implementations dont seem to have that, or at least, i cant see one that does |
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| 11:11:01 | <rond_> | shachaf Okay. So would you say that my interpretaion that, without a `force`, it would work perfectly well seems to be correct? |
| 11:11:33 | <shachaf> | It depends on how y is defined. |
| 11:12:00 | <shachaf> | I'm imagining something like y :: Int, force :: Int -> (Int# -> r) -> r |
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| 11:12:21 | <rond_> | Oh, I see |
| 11:12:53 | <rond_> | I imagined y :: ( r -> r) |
| 11:13:22 | <rond_> | Because "A lazy version of CPS would require the suspended computation inside a thunk to be a |
| 11:13:22 | <rond_> | function taking a continuation as its argument" |
| 11:13:27 | <rond_> | But I like it your way too |
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| 11:15:06 | <hpc> | tomsmeding: i like it |
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| 11:16:49 | <fuzzy_id> | When I want to abort an input in GHCi I sometimes do “Ctrl+c” exiting GHCi itself. Does someone know how to reconfigure this? |
| 11:17:28 | <curl> | matlab seems to use chebychev spectra for root finding, with papers citing a toolbox called chebfun as being essential to modern rootfinding |
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| 11:18:59 | <curl> | in byorgeys wordpress doc he gives a call for help for better rootfinding in haskell, i think this chebychev linearization approach is the way to go, because it is the industry standard as used via matlab |
| 11:19:50 | <curl> | and all the modern papers to do with rootfinding use appraoches based on it to do with pencils |
| 11:20:41 | <curl> | which are pretty much exactly the companion matrix for some polynomial the eigenvalues of which are the zeros |
| 11:22:01 | <peanut_> | fuzzy_id what OS? |
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| 11:22:36 | <curl> | there are some stability issues with the QR eigensolver, when combined with the pencil to find the roots, and the papers present stability anaysis with eg QZ, but basically for a normal toolkit, any eigensolver available will do |
| 11:23:26 | <curl> | i think whats missing in haskell is the companion matrix, but maybe i just cant find it |
| 11:23:39 | <rond_> | Thank you shachaf , I need to go. Wish you a great day! |
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| 11:32:45 | <L29Ah> | is it possible to ask quickcheck what did it choose as arbitrary instances deeper than the tested value type? |
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| 11:34:10 | <fuzzypixelz> | https://wiki.haskell.org/Bottom say that Bottom is a member of all types because if it were not, the compiler would solve the Halting Problem. That just flew over my head because even if we don't know if the computation will stop or not, we know its type because ... Haskell is statically typed? |
| 11:34:39 | <fuzzypixelz> | Obviously I'm wrong in some ridiculous way |
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| 11:36:05 | <dminuoso> | fuzzypixelz: It's just an odd way of phrasing: If bottom was not a member of every type, then `f :: Int -> Int` would only be legit, if `f` would be defined at every value. |
| 11:36:14 | <opqdonut> | fuzzypixelz: if the type Bool only had the values True and False (and not Bottom), the expression `fix not :: Bool` would be a type error |
| 11:36:32 | <dminuoso> | The implementation would need a general algorithm to decide, whether an arbitrary was indeed defined at every value |
| 11:36:36 | <opqdonut> | fuzzypixelz: there are languages like this, they are called total languages. one example is agda |
| 11:36:42 | <dminuoso> | And such an algorithm would solve the turing problem |
| 11:36:51 | <dminuoso> | Since Haskell is turing complete |
| 11:36:58 | <opqdonut> | agda doesn't solve the halting problem, instead it forces the programmer to _prove_ that their function halts |
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| 11:49:05 | <fuzzypixelz> | I understand dminuoso's explanation, however, I fail to see how `fix not :: Bool` would be a type error |
| 11:49:30 | <dminuoso> | fuzzypixelz: Will `fix not` terminate? |
| 11:49:32 | <dminuoso> | Or rather |
| 11:49:37 | <dminuoso> | What's the value of `fix not`? |
| 11:49:39 | <dminuoso> | Is it True? False? |
| 11:50:11 | <fuzzypixelz> | not it won't terminate because it keeps negating its input forever |
| 11:50:20 | <dminuoso> | So is it True or False? |
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| 11:50:46 | <fuzzypixelz> | it's neither? |
| 11:51:30 | <dminuoso> | But if the values of `Bool` are only True or False, that's a problem then. |
| 11:52:19 | <fuzzypixelz> | oh thank you that's much clearer now |
| 11:52:33 | <ski> | L29Ah : not really |
| 11:53:18 | L29Ah | sprinkles his code with traceShowId's |
| 11:53:40 | <dminuoso> | fuzzypixelz: What we do, is call values that dont terminate (infinite recursion, errors) "bottom", usually denoted _|_, and say that this value _|_ is a member of every type. |
| 11:54:40 | <jacks2> | is it just a coincidence that _|_ looks like buttocks? :) |
| 11:55:05 | <ski> | any expression could possibly not terminate. we call the "result value" of such an expression "bottom". it's not an actual result, because it doesn't actually terminate, but conceptually, we can think of it as a thing, representing "not defined" |
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| 11:55:10 | <ski> | yes |
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| 11:55:28 | <dminuoso> | Im not sure whether its a coincidence. |
| 11:56:01 | <dminuoso> | Perhaps its from lattice theory? |
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| 11:56:24 | <dminuoso> | _|_ could be visually interpreted as like something sitting at the bottom |
| 11:56:32 | <ski> | ⌜⊥⌝ is the symbol that the ascii version `_|_' is meant to resemble, that symbol is just an upside-down ⌜⊤⌝, which is a stylized `T', for "top" |
| 11:56:49 | <ski> | and yes, the symbol comes from order theory, lattices |
| 11:56:59 | <ski> | (via domain theory, and denotational semantics) |
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| 11:58:44 | <ski> | @quote denotational semantics |
| 11:58:45 | <lambdabot> | No quotes for this person. This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it. |
| 11:58:48 | <ski> | @quote denotational.semantics |
| 11:58:48 | <lambdabot> | vincenz says: Binkley: the sex is all in the operational semantics, denotational semantics only deals with love |
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| 11:59:04 | <ski> | @quote no.comprehensible |
| 11:59:04 | <lambdabot> | quicksilver says: C++ templates are a vile obscenity with no theoretical foundation and no comprehensible denotational semantics. Please do not compare them to haskell types or classes again. |
| 11:59:21 | <fuzzy_id> | @peanut: Linux |
| 11:59:21 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
| 11:59:47 | <dminuoso> | ski: Regarding that last bit, do you know the standard compliant non-const constexpr hack, where a constexpr in two subsequent uses evaluates to different expressions? |
| 11:59:49 | <fuzzy_id> | @peanut_: Linux |
| 11:59:50 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
| 12:00:18 | <dminuoso> | ski: C++ [...] is a vile obscenity with no theoretical foundation and no comprehensible denotational semantics. :-) |
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| 12:01:41 | <merijn> | It doesn't even have a well defined grammar :p |
| 12:01:41 | <peanut_> | fuzzy_id ctrl+c keeps ghci open for me, strange |
| 12:01:43 | <ski> | fuzzy_id : fwiw, it's not IRC custom to adorn nicknames with sigils (like `@'). if you want to address, or refer to, someone, simply mention their nickname. many IRC clients will highlight/alert their user if the nickname is mentioned at the very start of the message (commonly followed by a comma or a colon, and the bulk of the message). not as many, if it's mentioned later. putting a `@' at the front makes |
| 12:01:49 | <ski> | it come not at the start |
| 12:02:10 | <ski> | dminuoso : haven't seen it, but i'm not that surprised .. |
| 12:02:13 | <peanut_> | dminuoso yes |
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| 12:05:16 | <fuzzy_id> | ski: Yeah, I used to know that. Sorry, bad social networking habits. |
| 12:05:24 | <peanut_> | fuzzy_id sending SIGINT to ghc keeps it open for me, can you try "kill -SIGINT $(pidof ghc)" |
| 12:05:42 | <ski> | (IRC is social networking) |
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| 12:06:48 | <fuzzy_id> | peanut_: Ah yeah, just noticed that it's actually not a ghci thing, but rather something in `stack repl`. |
| 12:07:27 | <peanut_> | interesting |
| 12:07:32 | <fuzzy_id> | … with docker backend. |
| 12:08:00 | <fuzzy_id> | Not sure what that starts. |
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| 14:32:26 | <jsomedon> | hello folks, what does "sum" mean for term "sum type" and similarly what does "product" mean for "product type" |
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| 14:32:51 | <merijn> | jsomedon: It's a reference to the "algebra" part of "algebraic datatypes" |
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| 14:33:14 | <merijn> | See things like: https://codewords.recurse.com/issues/three/algebra-and-calculus-of-algebraic-data-types |
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| 14:34:10 | <jsomedon> | thank you let me read that and might come back with more questions |
| 14:34:41 | <merijn> | jsomedon: Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YScIPA8RbVE |
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| 15:37:49 | <zzz> | quit |
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| 15:37:59 | <zzz> | so sorry |
| 15:38:03 | <zzz> | ignore that |
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| 15:38:21 | <dmwit> | You can't tell me what to do, you're not my REAL dad. |
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| 16:22:06 | <heebo> | rip #haskell? |
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| 16:23:03 | <geekosaur> | quiet day |
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| 16:41:29 | <monochrom> | Unpopular opinion: "data X = N | C Int X" is a power series so it is an analytic type. >:) |
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| 16:42:04 | <d34df00d> | I have a list of objections to that. |
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| 16:46:52 | <heebo> | monochrom: im slow, why is it a power series |
| 16:47:13 | <monochrom> | 1 + Int + Int^2 + Int^3 + Int^4 + ... |
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| 16:49:05 | <heebo> | i saw it just as a series of int |
| 16:49:39 | <monochrom> | 1 + x + x^2 + x^3 + ... is a power series. |
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| 16:49:43 | coot_ | is now known as coot |
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| 16:50:29 | <geekosaur> | the second X brings in more Ints |
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| 16:55:50 | <tomsmeding> | X =~ [Int] |
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| 16:56:32 | <geekosaur> | yes |
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| 16:56:40 | <Gurkenglas> | Does every Contravariant f have some F and some Functor g such that f a is just g a -> F? |
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| 16:58:34 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: data X' i = N | C i (X' (i, Int)) ; type X = X' () -- that's a power series |
| 16:58:40 | <dolio> | monochrom: https://youtu.be/XqywV-wkKSE?t=2486 |
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| 17:01:46 | <heebo> | just looked like: data List = Empty | Int `:` List |
| 17:01:56 | <heebo> | excuse my bastard syntax |
| 17:02:44 | <heebo> | at least is isomorphic to it. |
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| 17:04:02 | <tomsmeding> | heebo: backticks are for making alphabetic names infix; operators are infix by default |
| 17:04:07 | <geekosaur> | heebo, monochrom is describing it in terms of sum and product types |
| 17:04:10 | <tomsmeding> | so it would've been data List = Empty | Int : List |
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| 17:06:48 | <Gurkenglas> | tomsmeding, shouldn't it be data X' i = N i | C (X' (i, Int)); type X = X ()? |
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| 17:07:29 | <tomsmeding> | Gurkenglas: that way there's only a bunch of Ints at the end on the N |
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| 17:08:21 | <tomsmeding> | I wanted it to be ((), ((), Int), ((), Int, Int), ((), Int, Int, Int), ...), except encoded as pairs instead of long tuples |
| 17:08:37 | <tomsmeding> | but it's joking anyway :p |
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| 17:13:09 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | a question about stm and an example from the parconc book |
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| 17:13:50 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | in chapter 12 there is an example of a chat |
| 17:14:15 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | there is a /kick command available to users |
| 17:14:48 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | the book says that when two users kick each other at the same time, only one of two kicks will succeed |
| 17:15:32 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | but the kick operation is not single stm transaction, but two consecutive transactions |
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| 17:17:07 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | it seems to me that there is no guarantee that only one of two kicks succeeds |
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| 17:18:15 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | here is an issue that I created in the examples project: https://github.com/simonmar/parconc-examples/issues/29 |
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| 17:19:11 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | here is my counter-example that makes a second transaction in the kick process wait for a tvar: https://github.com/shiraeeshi/hs-parconc-chat-server |
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| 17:20:05 | <geekosaur> | once one commits, the next will fail to find the user to kick, no? |
| 17:20:33 | <jacks2> | it will also fail because it is no longer in the channel |
| 17:20:37 | <davean> | geekosaur: not quite, looking at the code, it looks more complicated than that |
| 17:21:39 | <geekosaur> | oh, right, the second transaction would be from the kicked user, so no channel any more |
| 17:22:14 | <davean> | Theres also two client types, local and remote, which are handled differently |
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| 17:22:31 | <davean> | https://github.com/simonmar/parconc-examples/blob/master/distrib-chat/chat.hs#L170 |
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| 17:23:45 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | davean: no, that's another example |
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| 17:24:00 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | see the "chat" example, not a "distrib-chat" |
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| 17:24:17 | <davean> | ah |
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| 17:26:29 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | geekosaur: "once one commits, the next will fail to find the user to kick, no?" |
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| 17:27:02 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | in order for kick to be effective, the kicked user's thread should enter the next iteration and recognize that it was kicked |
| 17:27:04 | <geekosaur> | already corrected above, the other isn't in channel any more at that point |
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| 17:27:09 | <davean> | minoru_shiraeesh: well, where is the map deleted? |
| 17:27:23 | <davean> | removeClient would do it |
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| 17:28:02 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | but before entering the next iteration the kicked user could handle his own kick command |
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| 17:28:45 | <kenanmarasli> | This is probably a FAQ but I am looking at the book choices here and don't know which to pick: https://www.haskell.org/documentation/ |
| 17:28:45 | <kenanmarasli> | Which book do you suggest for a 3rd year computer science student? |
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| 17:31:40 | <davean> | atomically $ kick server who clientName <-- does not contain code to remove them from the channel |
| 17:31:41 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | geekosaur: "already corrected above, the other isn't in channel any more at that point" - what if two threads run the "kick" function at the same time? |
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| 17:31:56 | <davean> | minoru_shiraeesh: Thats not a proble, its atomic |
| 17:32:08 | <davean> | but I see nothing that makes them not actually in the channel atomicly |
| 17:32:30 | <davean> | it *does* set a kicked variable, but it doesn't change the channel member set |
| 17:32:48 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | davean: yeah, but it seems to me that they both can successfully kick each other |
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| 17:33:13 | <davean> | minoru_shiraeesh: I can believe that given this code. The code comments only talk about a 3rd person being kicked though |
| 17:33:20 | <davean> | this code would be trivial to make obviously correct BTW |
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| 17:33:56 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | davean: what comments? |
| 17:34:03 | <monochrom> | kenanmarasli: http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/learn-sources.html has my comments on those I have actually used or at least partly checked. |
| 17:34:07 | <geekosaur> | there are usually as many answers to that one as there are answerers. I'm partial to Hutton's myselfhttp://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~pszgmh/pih.html. Some prefer Bird's https://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/subjects/computer-science/programming-languages-and-applied-logic/thinking-functionally-haskell |
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| 17:34:44 | <davean> | monochrom: but look down in "server" of "runClient" |
| 17:34:52 | <geekosaur> | whoops, ran those together. http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~pszgmh/pih.html |
| 17:34:52 | <monochrom> | Not me :) |
| 17:34:55 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | davean: "this code would be trivial to make obviously correct BTW" - what do you mean? kick in one transaction? |
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| 17:35:30 | <davean> | "- Consistency: - if two clients simultaneously kick a third client, only one will be successful" |
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| 17:36:01 | <davean> | minoru_shiraeesh: put the kick logic in one place, not two, or comment about how it is correct and where to look for the rest of it. |
| 17:36:17 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | oh, I missed that part about two clients kicking a third client |
| 17:36:17 | <davean> | the difficulty with this design is they made there be two critical locations for kicking to function correctly. |
| 17:36:41 | ← | mmkarakaya parts (~mmk@176.33.226.149) () |
| 17:37:01 | <davean> | I do not like this code design |
| 17:37:03 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | davean: you mean two transactions? |
| 17:37:06 | <davean> | Also SO MANY THREADS |
| 17:37:09 | <davean> | minoru_shiraeesh: no |
| 17:37:13 | <davean> | I do not mean two transactions |
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| 17:39:04 | <kenanmarasli> | monochrom: that was a nice read, thanks |
| 17:39:11 | <monochrom> | :) |
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| 17:42:55 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | I checked whether a book claims a guarantee about two users kicking each other case. Here is what it says: |
| 17:42:59 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | <quote> |
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| 17:43:10 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | We should consider how to handle /kick because we want to guarantee that two clients cannot simultaneously kick each other. |
| 17:43:17 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | This implies some synchronized, shared state for each client to indicate whether it has been kicked. |
| 17:43:24 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | A server thread can then check that it has not already been kicked itself before kicking another client. |
| 17:43:27 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | </quote> |
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| 17:44:48 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | but, as I said, the guarantee doesn't work because we broke atomicity when divided a transaction into two |
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| 17:49:55 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | davean: "Also SO MANY THREADS" - two threads per client: one for translating input from client to commands (and add them to tchan), another to handle commands |
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| 18:19:44 | <ski> | dolio : interesting talk |
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| 18:33:04 | <dolio> | Yeah. |
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| 18:56:17 | <solidus-river> | ws 0 |
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| 19:12:33 | <Gurkenglas> | Should WHNF for a function f be the WHNF of f ⊥? |
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| 19:13:45 | <monochrom> | No. Not even the same type. |
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| 19:15:02 | <Gurkenglas> | monochrom, yea but except for the not being the same type thing :P |
| 19:15:07 | <monochrom> | In Haskell, especially because of seq, WHNF for function types is a lambda without any requirement on what's inside the lambda. IIRC this is the "weak" part. |
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| 19:15:43 | <Gurkenglas> | aka, should seq f () apply f to ⊥ until f ⊥ reaches WHNF or the ⊥ is touched |
| 19:15:52 | <dolio> | No. |
| 19:15:58 | <Gurkenglas> | Why not? |
| 19:16:08 | <dolio> | Why would it? |
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| 19:16:37 | <Gurkenglas> | It would undefined and undefined . id observationally equivalent (right?). Would it open some other can of worms? |
| 19:16:38 | <monochrom> | seq f () is () iff f is \x->something |
| 19:16:47 | <monochrom> | even \x->bottom |
| 19:16:50 | <Gurkenglas> | *would make |
| 19:17:04 | <monochrom> | as said, "weak" means no one looks under the lambda. |
| 19:17:17 | <Gurkenglas> | monochrom, you are saying it like it is, but i am asking how it should be |
| 19:18:07 | <monochrom> | How it should be? There are only two choices. (\x->bottom) = bottom or (\x->bottom) ≠ bottom. |
| 19:18:27 | <Gurkenglas> | right, i am arguing in favor of (\x->bottom) = bottom. Is there a reason against? |
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| 19:18:29 | <monochrom> | f bottom is highly irrelevant. |
| 19:18:45 | <monochrom> | seq is a reason against. |
| 19:19:13 | <Gurkenglas> | Why not make seq (\x->⊥) () = ⊥? |
| 19:19:30 | <monochrom> | And seq is justified by "laziness can hurt space so we need something for manually kiling laziness" |
| 19:19:32 | <dolio> | What is `seq id` supposed to do in this 'apply to ⊥' scenario? |
| 19:19:46 | <Gurkenglas> | dolio, ⊥ |
| 19:19:46 | <d34df00d> | Doesn't "weak" mean nobody looks under constructors, and not lambdas? |
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| 19:20:01 | <dolio> | Why would you want `seq id` to blow up? |
| 19:20:10 | <Gurkenglas> | dolio, because id is strict |
| 19:20:21 | <dolio> | What does that have to do with anything? |
| 19:20:28 | <monochrom> | Huh, when was seq supposed to check function strictness? |
| 19:20:34 | <d34df00d> | I thought "weak" means that, given `data Foo a = Foo a`, Foo undefined `seq` () is to () |
| 19:20:41 | <Gurkenglas> | dolio, strict functions are exactly those which would make seq ⊥ |
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| 19:20:51 | <dolio> | No. |
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| 19:21:09 | <Gurkenglas> | You mean they would not make seq ⊥, or they should not make seq ⊥? |
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| 19:21:46 | <monochrom> | One of "weak" or "head" or both is going to refer to "don't look under lambda". There is also the possibility that the same word also covers "don't look under constructors". |
| 19:22:06 | <Gurkenglas> | okay, how would you like to call the variant that does look under lambda? |
| 19:22:09 | <dolio> | seq is supposed to be strict in both arguments. id is not bottom. |
| 19:23:04 | <Gurkenglas> | dolio, seq could still be strict if it mapped id to the same as bottom |
| 19:23:13 | <dolio> | It could, but it would be worthless. |
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| 19:23:57 | <monochrom> | "thoroughly analysing normal form" looks under lambdas. >:) |
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| 19:24:21 | <dolio> | The practical use of seq is to ensure some kind of evaluation, and blowing up when evaluating a strict function is pretty bad behavior. |
| 19:24:22 | <Gurkenglas> | monochrom, why >:)? Will saying TANF confuse people? |
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| 19:24:32 | <monochrom> | I made it up. |
| 19:25:02 | <monochrom> | But everyone tends to get my joke, so it is anything but confusing. |
| 19:25:37 | <Gurkenglas> | you must still be joking |
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| 19:26:55 | <dolio> | Also, per the earlier remark, the 'weak' part is what signals not looking under lambda. 'Weak head normal form' was invented because 'head normal form' does some stuff under lambdas, which is not what actual implementations do. |
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| 19:28:01 | <Gurkenglas> | dolio, you mean, people currently use seq to evaluate "let a = precompute datastrucutre in \x -> a x", and my change would break that? |
| 19:28:33 | <dolio> | They could. |
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| 19:29:01 | <Gurkenglas> | I was hoping for arguments of form "even though this would make undefined observationally indistinguishable from undefined . id, it would introduce this other barrier from Hask being straightforwardly a category:" |
| 19:29:27 | <ski> | (`\x -> let y = ..x.. in \z -> ..x..y..z..' is sometimes called "serious" currying. also see "run-time compilation") |
| 19:29:38 | <dolio> | Being practically useless seems like a much better reason than some adherence to mathematical purity. |
| 19:29:47 | <ski> | (as opposed to "trivial") |
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| 19:30:51 | <ski> | (well, actually. imagine a `seq y' before the '\z -> ...' as well) |
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| 19:31:00 | <Gurkenglas> | dolio, it would fix my VeryLazyNaturals! Or would you call my usecase useless since it's not useful for any actual application? :P |
| 19:31:04 | <dolio> | Your description is also type-directed, so might be impossible to actually implement. |
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| 19:32:43 | <monochrom> | Mathematical purity is just as artificial as practice anyway. |
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| 19:36:23 | <dolio> | It's important to remember that math isn't always automatically right. If something actually behaves differently than the math, that might just mean the math is not modelling the actual thing correctly. |
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| 19:37:32 | <Gurkenglas> | I suppose instead of blowing up, seq f () could simply proceed to () when f touches its argument ⊥ (but not when f itself resolves to undefined) - this would still make undefined observationally identical to undefined . id, right? |
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| 19:40:29 | <monochrom> | So here is what I think dolio referred to as "type directed" and I take it and go big. |
| 19:40:42 | <monochrom> | We have negate :: Num a => a -> a |
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| 19:41:25 | <monochrom> | So what does "seq negate ()" mean? Does it mean "seq (negate @ Int) ()"? Does it mean "seq (negate @ MonochromsSecretNumInstance) ()"? |
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| 19:41:43 | <monochrom> | Answer: "Ambiguous type variable a0 in ..." |
| 19:41:50 | <Gurkenglas> | i agree |
| 19:42:01 | <monochrom> | Meta-Answer: Why would it bother? I call XY Problem. |
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| 19:42:16 | <Gurkenglas> | you mean, nobody would actually want to seq negate ()? |
| 19:42:51 | <monochrom> | I mean the feature you're wanting is both half-baked and an XY problem. |
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| 19:43:34 | <Gurkenglas> | the X would be "giff Hask pls" |
| 19:45:08 | <Gurkenglas> | or do you call that another Y |
| 19:45:17 | <monochrom> | I think that to achieve Hask it is much simpler to just remove seq. |
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| 19:47:23 | <Gurkenglas> | i like things like glb and lub though (glb a b = most defined value which is less defined than both of a and b; lub a b = least defined value which is more defined than both of a and b, if any such exist) |
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| 19:48:31 | <Gurkenglas> | not sure whether those require seq, but surely "\y -> if x is less defined than y then y else x" does |
| 19:49:01 | <monochrom> | You can furthermore add back seq in a restricted, disciplined way by creating a class "class Seq a where seq :: a -> b -> b" so you can still have the niceness of foldl' but its type now has a Seq constraint. |
| 19:50:00 | <monochrom> | This was actually the state of old Haskell versions. This means if you get your hands on a very old version of Hugs, it's actually an executable model of Hask that is highly faithful. |
| 19:50:27 | <dolio> | Well, functions had an instance, though. |
| 19:50:37 | <monochrom> | Ah damn. |
| 19:50:38 | <dolio> | And it didn't do something undecidable. :) |
| 19:51:17 | <monochrom> | Well, can always fork the source code and remove that. Hugs source code was and still is relatively simple. |
| 19:52:08 | <Gurkenglas> | dolio, by undecidable do you mean seeing whether f touches its argument ⊥ without blowing up, or doing things depending on whether f is a function? |
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| 19:52:23 | <monochrom> | But really if you are interested in Hask you don't need foldl' so you don't need seq so just remove it. |
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| 19:53:15 | <monochrom> | If you need it for one particular ADT, just write one specific function for that ADT. |
| 19:53:15 | <Gurkenglas> | Why not want Hask and the ability to construct as many definedness-monotonic functions as possible? |
| 19:53:39 | <dolio> | Testing if a function is point-wise bottom sounds undecidable. |
| 19:53:58 | <dolio> | In general. |
| 19:54:06 | <Gurkenglas> | dolio, what would require such a decision? |
| 19:54:26 | <dolio> | The insistance that `⊥ = const ⊥` in domain theory. |
| 19:54:46 | <monochrom> | I don't see how Hask itself doesn't already have many levels of definedness. |
| 19:55:12 | <Gurkenglas> | dolio, how does this insistence require such a decision? |
| 19:55:47 | <dolio> | Well, for one, your description of `seq` to begin this conversation was actually not what it is specified to do. You were changing the definition. |
| 19:56:27 | <Gurkenglas> | dolio, sure, I was proposing a change of its behavior. One can do it the usual way and define a new term to work like I describe, then deprecate the old one over a bunch of years |
| 19:56:29 | <dolio> | What it is specified to do is be ⊥ if its frist argument is ⊥, and equal to its second argument if its first argument is not ⊥. |
| 19:56:59 | <dolio> | So, if you adhere to the domain theoretic notion of the function space, that requires determining if functions are point-wise ⊥. |
| 19:58:03 | <Gurkenglas> | I see. I agree that seq as specified can't be implemented with ⊥ = const ⊥. |
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| 20:00:08 | <dolio> | It might actually be implementable, but so expensive that it would be completely unusable. |
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| 20:00:41 | <dolio> | Because it needs to run the function on all possible inputs in parallel and see if any finish. |
| 20:01:31 | <Gurkenglas> | i suppose it depends on whether we say it has to check all terms or all values - there are uncountably large types to use for the input, after all |
| 20:01:33 | <dolio> | I mean, the fact that it is a valid domain theoretic function means that you can implement it in principle. |
| 20:01:54 | <sclv> | i would run it on all possible inputs in serial, but just do it faster |
| 20:02:09 | <monochrom> | As usual, denotational semantics happily ignores costs. |
| 20:02:24 | <sclv> | u just need a system clock indexed by an uncountable ordinal |
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| 20:02:35 | <dolio> | The models where this would work would be able to enumerate all possible values, because only the ones definable in the language count. |
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| 20:02:59 | <monochrom> | sclv, ever heard of functional reactive programming? >:) |
| 20:03:11 | <dolio> | So, check all possible Haskell terms. |
| 20:03:13 | <monochrom> | its time model is the continuum. |
| 20:03:33 | <monochrom> | although, not sure how much it insist on the ordinal aspect. |
| 20:03:42 | <sclv> | ok sorry i should have send higher uncountable ordinal |
| 20:04:18 | <dolio> | Of course, those models are in some sense bad in their own ways. |
| 20:04:56 | <Gurkenglas> | dolio, but aren't there uncountably many valid domain-theoretic functions so they can't all be implementable? |
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| 20:05:38 | <dolio> | This is how you implement it on a computer. Computers implementations aren't abstract mathematical domains. |
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| 20:06:19 | <dolio> | The domain theoretic function is just given by the specification that `it is ⊥ if ...`. |
| 20:06:46 | <sclv> | this is really about skolem's paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skolem%27s_paradox |
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| 20:08:51 | <dolio> | The domain theoretic description is just a simplifying abstraction for talking about the behavior of actual implementations. The implementations don't work in terms of domains. |
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| 20:10:21 | <dolio> | The way the implementation works is that if the function is point-wise bottom, it will never find a value to stop the parallel evaluation, so the overall result will be bottom. |
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| 20:11:23 | <dolio> | And if it's not point-wise bottom, eventually the right point might be found and work can continue. |
| 20:12:19 | <dolio> | That behavior corresponds to the domain theoretic definition. |
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| 20:15:29 | <Gurkenglas> | dolio, if the function f to be judged equal or not equal to const ⊥ has an argument type with a value more defined than any other, you can simply check whether f applied to that value is ⊥ :) |
| 20:19:18 | <Gurkenglas> | (...such argument types are isomorphic to A -> () for some A, I think...) |
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| 20:27:46 | <dolio> | Most domains are not like that. |
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| 20:32:31 | <dolio> | If you use lattice theory instead you'd have that, but I don't know as much about lattice theoretic semantics. |
| 20:33:17 | <wz1000> | I would really like to mask in ConduitT |
| 20:33:31 | <wz1000> | but I don't think there is a way |
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| 20:35:05 | <dolio> | I think prima facie you'd have a better story for lub, too, because it would exist even if the values mismatch on the 'well-defined' parts. But I think you need to wait for all branches to complete, so that's bad. |
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| 21:00:32 | <monochrom> | Lattices are nice in giving you a sense of symmetry in "both join and meet exist, not just biasedly one of them". In the same sense classical logic is more symmetric than intuitionistic logic. |
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| 21:01:45 | <monochrom> | But I learned it the hard way, even resisted for a while, that once computation is involved, that nice symmetry has to be broken. Necessarily one side is much more computable than the other. Too bad, but c'est la vie. |
| 21:01:54 | <ski> | @hackage lvish |
| 21:01:55 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lvish |
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| 21:05:00 | <monochrom> | You will find lattice theory --- admitting both join and meet --- more popular in semantics of stateful programming, e.g., most spaces of Dijkstra's weakest preconditions. But immediately you will also find that one of them stands for angelic non-determinism, a miraculous notion that is nice to have in math but everyone knows it is unimplementable. |
| 21:05:22 | <ski> | being able to have multiple stages (more than just "not forced", and "forced, possibly containing unforced components") could also be useful. an example is "improving intervals", where one attempts to represent real numbers, by successively better rational interval approximations. you can e.g. write a binary-search of a root, using a `clamp' (`clamp lo hi x = max lo (min hi x) = min hi (max lo x)'), with an |
| 21:05:28 | <ski> | implementation that at first looks like it can't terminate, due to no base case. calling `>' will force successively better approximations, until (if) it can tell the answer |
| 21:06:13 | <ski> | (another possibility for multiple instantiation states would be something like splay trees, or other such things, where you can switch to an alternate representation, based of usage patterns) |
| 21:07:47 | ski | idly recalls browsing a paper about using topological methods to analyze concurrency, e.g. deadlock. avoiding "forbidden regions" of a multidimensional state-space, where one traces out a monotone/increasing path |
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| 21:12:46 | <farzad> | hi guys, is ClassyPrelude still a thing? im having trouble setting it up in a fresh project |
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| 21:14:13 | <monochrom> | ski: In the case of improving intervals, I think we can fake it with [(Rationa, Rational)] as lists of successively improving intervals. To be sure, as usual, encodings suck. |
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| 21:15:30 | <monochrom> | Haha great, improving intervals and splay trees are advocates of mutable state. >:) |
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| 21:26:42 | <ski> | monochrom : yea. the same mutability of the heart of by-need |
| 21:26:52 | <ski> | s/of/at/1 |
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| 21:30:13 | <redmp> | logs for this channel stop march 13 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/haskell/?C=M |
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| 21:34:32 | <monochrom> | Hrm, yikes. |
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| 21:44:10 | <ski> | @tell redmp try <https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/browse/haskell> |
| 21:44:10 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
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| 21:49:13 | <falsifian> | @help tell |
| 21:49:13 | <lambdabot> | tell <nick> <message>. When <nick> shows activity, tell them <message>. |
| 21:49:22 | <falsifian> | Cool! |
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| 21:56:28 | <lukelau_> | Are there any http libraries that allow me to stream http responses in a lightweight manner? |
| 21:57:08 | <lukelau_> | everything I’ve seen so far either involves setting up conduits or io-streams, but what I really want is just a lazy bytestring that just streams the response |
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| 22:02:24 | <__minoru__shirae> | @help untell |
| 22:02:24 | <lambdabot> | help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands |
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| 22:05:38 | <__minoru__shirae> | lukelau_: how about using network package directly? |
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| 22:06:59 | <__minoru__shirae> | there is a Network.Socket.ByteString.Lazy module: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/network-3.1.2.1/docs/Network-Socket-ByteString-Lazy.html |
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| 22:09:52 | <lukelau_> | __minoru__shirae: hm was hoping i wouldnt have to drop down to the socket level |
| 22:10:32 | <lukelau_> | is there a reason though as to why http packages currently wait for the entire response before returning lazy results? |
| 22:11:12 | <lukelau_> | i gather that some might want to throw an exception if the status code isn’t 200, but thats the first thing that arrives |
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| 22:19:16 | <__minoru__shirae> | lukelau_: I think that an exception you're talking about has different semantics than http response code semantics |
| 22:20:46 | <__minoru__shirae> | server can start sending you a 200 response with a big body and fail in the middle of it |
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| 22:21:44 | <__minoru__shirae> | http protocol doesn't guarrantee that once started, a transaction of sending an answer can't fail, right? |
| 22:21:59 | <lukelau_> | I guess |
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| 22:22:14 | <lukelau_> | And by fail that presumably means the connection is closed before Content-Length bytes are read? |
| 22:22:34 | <__minoru__shirae> | yeah, something like that |
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| 22:23:04 | <__minoru__shirae> | because you would need time travel to fix the response code of that response |
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| 22:26:19 | <__minoru__shirae> | wait, do you have to know the Content-Length beforehand? |
| 22:26:39 | <__minoru__shirae> | then that's another reason |
| 22:26:47 | <Axman6> | lukelau_: what about wreq? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/wreq-0.5.3.3/docs/Network-Wreq.html |
| 22:26:48 | <__minoru__shirae> | but I'm not sure if it's required |
| 22:27:29 | <lukelau_> | __minoru__shirae: no, the http request i’m making streams blobs of json separated by newlines |
| 22:27:34 | <lukelau_> | so its content-length is infinite really |
| 22:27:55 | <Axman6> | get :: String -> IO (Response ByteString) (and that's a lazy bytestring) |
| 22:27:55 | <monochrom> | wreq looks like what you want. |
| 22:28:04 | <lukelau_> | iI |
| 22:28:10 | <lukelau_> | I’ll give wreq a try, thanks |
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| 22:28:18 | <lukelau_> | So far HTTP and req have been blocking for me |
| 22:28:20 | <monochrom> | I just forgot it because I'm not familiar with any http library. |
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| 22:29:46 | <Axman6> | but really, lazy bytestrings are not a great way to deal with streaming data |
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| 22:30:57 | <lukelau_> | argh wreq blocks anyway |
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| 22:33:19 | <wz1000> | unsafeInterleaveIO? |
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| 22:34:40 | <monochrom> | unsafeInterleaveIO doesn't reduce blocking unless you actually have something else to do in the meantime. |
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| 22:35:08 | <Gurkenglas> | "To make packages available add them to the stack.yaml in the IHaskell directory and run stack solver && stack install." <- stack solver says "Invalid argument: 'solver'", what do I do? |
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| 22:36:57 | <sclv> | Did stack delete the solver command? Iirc it may have, not sure... |
| 22:37:06 | <Axman6> | Perhaps check the release notes for stack to see what happened to it |
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| 22:38:52 | <glguy> | sclv: IIRC it stopped working when cabal changed and was then deprecated in favor of fixing |
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| 22:41:44 | <sclv> | right, so that sadly answers Gurkenglas ' question in the negative |
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| 22:42:03 | <sclv> | I guess the answer is "you have to figure it all out by hand". i don't know what the standard workflow for that is |
| 22:42:03 | <Gurkenglas> | It's still in the user guide :( did they say what one should use instead? |
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| 22:42:30 | <lukelau_> | Axman6: yeah, http-conduit works, looks like i’m going into the conduit ecosystem now! |
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| 22:43:17 | <Axman6> | good luck! |
| 22:43:33 | <Gurkenglas> | like, i would like to import modules from a package whose name I know. what do I need to do? |
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| 22:45:26 | <sclv> | Gurkenglas: add it to the extra deps section https://docs.haskellstack.org/en/stable/GUIDE/#curated-package-sets |
| 22:45:39 | <sclv> | i assume you did that, and then stack solver failed to run |
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| 22:45:59 | <sclv> | so what that means is I think that you can still try to proceed, but you may get a failure because some transitive dep of that package is missing |
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| 22:46:12 | <sclv> | so you need to go add that transitive dep to extra deps, and repeat |
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| 22:46:34 | <sclv> | and hope you don't accidentally introduce a conflict, or take care using Mad Thinking Skillz to ensure you don't |
| 22:46:39 | <sclv> | (i.e. run a solver in your head) |
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| 22:47:16 | <wz1000> | Does Conduit really have to way to mask exceptions? |
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| 22:47:30 | <wz1000> | How do people write any exception safe code with it? |
| 22:47:40 | <sclv> | they don't |
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| 22:47:57 | <Axman6> | I thought ResourceT was part of doing that |
| 22:48:00 | <wz1000> | huh, pipes doesn't either |
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| 22:48:37 | <Axman6> | I would guess you rely on being able to do it in the monad your conduits use, not the conduits themselves |
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| 22:49:27 | <wz1000> | But I want to mask around await! |
| 22:50:21 | <Axman6> | BEst I can do is, no you don't :) |
| 22:50:56 | <sclv> | or don't use conduit |
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| 22:51:11 | <wz1000> | how do I ensure values don't get lost in the ether when I send a timeout and recover from it |
| 22:51:31 | <wz1000> | do people really use this for network applications? |
| 22:51:33 | <sclv> | i don't think you can do that with conduit |
| 22:51:57 | <wz1000> | seems like a fundamental limitation |
| 22:52:00 | <sclv> | agreed |
| 22:52:11 | <wz1000> | which streaming library should I use? |
| 22:52:23 | <sclv> | what's the full use case |
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| 22:53:13 | <wz1000> | parsing/validating a stream of values |
| 22:53:41 | <sclv> | what's the IO component? |
| 22:53:51 | <wz1000> | it is interactive |
| 22:54:04 | <sclv> | how is stream produced |
| 22:54:05 | <Axman6> | I guess one answer is using threads which send values using MVars/Chans/TMVars/TChans etc. to another thread which processes values using conduit |
| 22:54:17 | <sclv> | or not using conduit |
| 22:54:22 | <wz1000> | via interaction with a server |
| 22:54:23 | <sclv> | its extraneous to a parallel architecture |
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| 22:54:36 | <wz1000> | think request/response |
| 22:54:37 | <sclv> | yeah i always just structure that stuff with tchans and especially bounded tchans |
| 22:54:58 | <Axman6> | yeah for rerquests response stuff, threads are the way to go usually |
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| 23:11:32 | <Axman6> | mo threads, less problems |
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| 23:17:15 | <hpc> | what is the ideal ratio of threads to regexes? |
| 23:17:38 | <Axman6> | 1/0:0 |
| 23:18:06 | <hpc> | surely that would just mean you have -1/12 problems |
| 23:18:33 | <Axman6> | depending on which mathematician you ask, yes |
| 23:18:44 | <sclv> | but a regex ain't one! |
| 23:19:21 | <sclv> | "if you're having Perl problems I feel bad for you son / I got -1/12 problems but a regex ain't one" |
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| 23:59:21 | <MarcelineVQ> | good job today, you |
All times are in UTC on 2021-03-23.