Logs on 2021-03-27 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 00:05:44 | <dgpratt> | In e.g. .NET Core there is a configuration pattern that ostensibly makes it easy to configure an application from some combination of JSON config files, environment variables, command line arguments, etc. I don't necessarily need or want all of that (esp. the config files) for Haskell, but what sorts of patterns do Haskellers use to configure their programs? |
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| 00:09:20 | <monochrom> | I don't use any systematic system. I just use "options" for command line arguments (more people use optparse-applicative), System.Environment.lookupEnv for environment variables. |
| 00:09:46 | hackage | qualified-imports-plugin 0.0.1 - GHC plugin to automatically insert qualified imports https://hackage.haskell.org/package/qualified-imports-plugin-0.0.1 (utdemir) |
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| 00:11:23 | <curiousgay> | can anyone please recommend FRP library for GUI? |
| 00:12:26 | <L29Ah> | curiousgay: whatever depending on gi-gtk |
| 00:12:45 | <monochrom> | Having multiple config sources does not cause any headache because since a long time ago people have recongized that configs form a monoid under one of the two priority rules. |
| 00:13:17 | <monochrom> | or at least a semigroup if you don't have defaults. |
| 00:14:21 | <dgpratt> | thanks monochrom -- any particular reason you eschew optparse-applicative? |
| 00:14:33 | <monochrom> | too many features |
| 00:14:40 | <dgpratt> | ah |
| 00:14:47 | <monochrom> | options has a much smaller API |
| 00:15:09 | <DigitalKiwi> | great sales pitch |
| 00:15:17 | <monochrom> | I used to use optparse-applicative when it was slightly smaller. |
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| 00:16:51 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://github.com/obsidiansystems/obelisk curiousgay have you seen? |
| 00:17:19 | <L29Ah> | optparse-generic ♥ |
| 00:17:38 | <dgpratt> | speaking of the monoid thing, I seem to recall seeing some scheme where one could combine a bunch of possibly "partial" configurations with a default configuration, which would then get combined into a...uh...not partial configuration |
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| 00:17:55 | <curiousgay> | L29Ah: hm, that's either reflex or reactive-banana, thanks |
| 00:18:17 | <curiousgay> | DigitalKiwi: yes, but I closed that page after seeing that it requires nix package manager |
| 00:18:28 | <dgpratt> | like the partial configurations was a bunch of Maybe values or something, but the resulting computed configuration was unwrapped values...if that makes sense |
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| 00:18:55 | <DigitalKiwi> | curiousgay: that's the best part |
| 00:19:55 | <curiousgay> | DigitalKiwi: why? it could simply be placed in hackage |
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| 00:20:26 | <DigitalKiwi> | but nix isn't a haskell program how could it be on hackage |
| 00:20:54 | <monochrom> | "challenge accepted" >:D |
| 00:21:15 | <monochrom> | afterall, pandoc and xmonad are already on hackage |
| 00:21:16 | <curiousgay> | I'm talking about obelisk on hackage, not nix |
| 00:22:01 | <curiousgay> | also obelisk readme says it's for web and mobile apps, that's not what I want |
| 00:23:01 | <monochrom> | But it has a very substantial, used-in-anger FRP part. |
| 00:23:38 | <c_wraith> | Isn't the FRP part basically reflex? |
| 00:23:44 | <monochrom> | Or maybe it has one as a dependency, I don't know, but it is a very good starting point. |
| 00:24:08 | <monochrom> | Oh, reflex, yeah. So, problem solved? |
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| 00:24:30 | <curiousgay> | yes, I'll pick between reflex and reactive-banana |
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| 00:26:46 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://dpaste.org/Q55R |
| 00:27:24 | <curiousgay> | FRP appears to be a form of dataflow programming :) |
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| 00:28:37 | <curiousgay> | I start hating stack, it's impossible to install gpipe, reflex and reactive-banana, I need to switch to cabal |
| 00:28:39 | <DigitalKiwi> | monochrom: lol https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hnix |
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| 00:31:54 | <monochrom> | "Is this Murphy's Law?" meme |
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| 00:37:26 | <dgpratt> | appreciating the apparent simplicity of optparse-generic, thanks L29Ah |
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| 00:42:11 | <DigitalKiwi> | nix is great in that it solves a ton of problems i had, even more i didn't know i had, makes things trivial that i didn't even think were possible or know i wanted, and creates a bunch of problems along the way! (and solves those too though lol) |
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| 00:44:03 | L29Ah | is going to switch to nix or guix after they implement gentoo-like USE flags |
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| 00:44:59 | <curiousgay> | DigitalKiwi: I have enough package managers in void linux, more is less |
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| 00:45:47 | <justsomeguy> | /join/bc |
| 00:46:13 | <ski> | NemesisD : could use `State s' .. |
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| 00:48:10 | <DigitalKiwi> | i have one package manager lol |
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| 00:51:01 | <curiousgay> | me too |
| 00:52:30 | <justsomeguy> | Only one? How did you do that? I have to interact with, erm, some of these on a semi-regular basis: (npm/yarn, pip/pipx/poetry, dnf/rpm, apt/dpkg, cabal/stack, docker/podman/etc). |
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| 00:53:29 | <justsomeguy> | ...and then there's this weird LaTeX build tool that I keep on forgetting about... |
| 00:53:34 | <L29Ah> | i do everything through portage, including haskell stuff |
| 00:53:51 | <L29Ah> | cabal is used as a build system but not as a package manager |
| 00:54:20 | <justsomeguy> | Oh nice. That sounds pleasant. Maybe even sane :^). |
| 00:54:42 | <monochrom> | Switch to Windows. Then you have 0 package managers. >:) |
| 00:55:01 | <DigitalKiwi> | monochrom: i think you end up with hundreds of them really |
| 00:55:31 | <L29Ah> | but but but windows appstore or how was it called, how is it? |
| 00:55:40 | <pjb> | MSI |
| 00:55:47 | <L29Ah> | not sure if it can resolve dependencies though even |
| 00:56:07 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://search.nixos.org/packages?channel=unstable&from=0&size=50&sort=relevance&query=2nix |
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| 00:56:19 | <justsomeguy> | Ah, they have chocolately, which is some kind of bastard package manager that uses AutoIt gui automation scripts for graphical installers. Then there's nuget, which is a layer on top of it. And the windows store has an actual sane package format. |
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| 00:56:50 | <justsomeguy> | ...and powershell has maybe three package managers of its own. |
| 00:56:57 | <drakonis> | there's an official one that microsoft wrote a while ago |
| 00:57:07 | justsomeguy | is somewhat tired of learning new package managers at this point. |
| 00:57:10 | <drakonis> | winpm |
| 00:57:19 | <drakonis> | winget, rather. |
| 00:58:42 | <curiousgay> | justanotheruser: they say cabal is dependency manager, not package manager |
| 01:00:41 | justsomeguy | pokes through the cabal documentation out of curiosity. |
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| 01:04:09 | <DigitalKiwi> | justsomeguy: https://github.com/nix-community/poetry2nix https://input-output-hk.github.io/haskell.nix/ https://haskell4nix.readthedocs.io https://github.com/svanderburg/node2nix https://hackage.haskell.org/package/yarn2nix https://nixos.wiki/wiki/Nixpkgs/Building_RPM_DEB_with_nixpkgs https://nixos.wiki/wiki/Podman and lol https://github.com/google/nixery |
| 01:04:46 | <justsomeguy> | lol, one package manager to rule them all! |
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| 01:05:17 | <justsomeguy> | (I have been meaning to get into Nix, though. Mainly because of the possiblity of replacing ansible on my machine.) |
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| 01:05:39 | <justsomeguy> | But thanks, now I have a bunch of other reasons to check it out, too :^) |
| 01:05:50 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://mostlyabsurd.com/files/binance |
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| 01:06:19 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://wearewizards.io/my-experience-of-using-nixops-as-an-ansible-user/ |
| 01:06:49 | <DigitalKiwi> | tl;dr they like nix |
| 01:08:35 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://dpaste.com/6GB9NLRHF |
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| 01:10:13 | <outerpassage_> | i'm very confused by the fact that cabal v2-install has the two options `--installdir` and `--bindir`. what's the difference? |
| 01:11:08 | <sclv> | bindir is for bins that cabal might itself invoke afaik? |
| 01:12:31 | <outerpassage_> | doesn't seem to be the case. it also has analagous options `--libdir` and `--datadir` (along with `--bindir`) where it claims it will install libs and read-only data, respectively |
| 01:12:40 | <dcoutts_> | outerpassage_: bindir is where the binaries actually live. The installdir is where symlinks to the binaries go. |
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| 01:13:02 | <dcoutts_> | For example bindir would be in some per-package dir, but symlinks in ~/bin/ that's on your $PATH |
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| 01:13:39 | <outerpassage_> | i see, thanks! |
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| 01:13:55 | <outerpassage_> | what if a package wants to install things other than executables (i.e. documentation) globally, though? i don't see any option for that |
| 01:15:00 | <dcoutts_> | sure, that's what all the other standard --blah-dir flags are for, libdir, libexecdir, datadir. All the standard ones. |
| 01:15:11 | <dcoutts_> | And --prefix |
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| 01:19:16 | <outerpassage_> | hmmm. i find that a bit confusing. it seems like the existence of --installdir suggests that you should build everything in one place, and then copy it over globally if you want to after the fact. but you can only do that for executables, not for everything else |
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| 01:19:56 | <outerpassage_> | or you can, but you'll have to manually cp it or whatever |
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| 01:27:36 | <dcoutts_> | outerpassage_: the purpose of it is to allow schemes where you install the package into some location where it is guaranteed not to overwrite anything else, but still allow symlinks for the binaries to be in some shared location that is on the $PATH. |
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| 01:28:23 | <dcoutts_> | And it is only executables that want to be on a $PATH. |
| 01:28:35 | <dcoutts_> | You don't have to use this mechanism. It's totally optional. |
| 01:29:41 | <outerpassage_> | alright, thanks! |
| 01:30:00 | <dcoutts_> | For example, cabal-install itself defaults to installing all packages into a store, one package per dir, so no shared bin dir. And then it uses the installdir feature so that you still get symlinks on the $PATHto the binaries you install. |
| 01:32:34 | <outerpassage_> | right |
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| 02:04:46 | hackage | input-parsers 0.2.2 - Extension of the parsers library with more capability and efficiency https://hackage.haskell.org/package/input-parsers-0.2.2 (MarioBlazevic) |
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| 02:22:48 | <gnumonic> | Is there a typeclass anywhere for monads that you can "take things out of"? (i.e. that have a function :: m a -> a) |
| 02:23:40 | <shachaf> | Probably not anything meaningful. |
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| 02:24:05 | <shachaf> | It's not a very sensible thing to abstract over, I think. |
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| 02:25:36 | <infinisil> | gnumonic: There's MonoPointed: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mono-traversable-1.0.15.1/docs/Data-MonoTraversable.html#t:MonoPointed |
| 02:26:26 | <infinisil> | gnumonic: Also, Comonad: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/comonad-5.0.8/docs/Control-Comonad.html#v:extract |
| 02:27:43 | <shachaf> | That former one does not look like a class that's very applicable here. |
| 02:28:10 | <shachaf> | Nor is Comonad, really. I guess the real question is what you want this sort of class for. |
| 02:28:26 | <shachaf> | And what instances are you imagining for it? |
| 02:29:03 | <infinisil> | Well gnumonic hasn't given any context yet, so hard to say if it's applicable |
| 02:29:51 | <shachaf> | The context is that it should be something applicable to monads. |
| 02:30:12 | <shachaf> | Also, wait, MonoPointed isn't even going in the right direction. |
| 02:30:29 | <gnumonic> | Oh I didn't want it for anything in particular, I'm just playing around (somewhat aimlessly) with ways of mixing the store comonad with other things |
| 02:30:38 | <shachaf> | You'd want a class with a name like "Copointed". |
| 02:30:55 | <infinisil> | Oh right, nevermind monopointed |
| 02:30:57 | <shachaf> | (Or, I mean, you probably don't. But that's what the class would be called.) |
| 02:31:11 | <shachaf> | My suggestion is that abstractions don't exist on their own, they exist to abstract over things. |
| 02:31:42 | <shachaf> | If you have two or three concrete things that can share a sensible function :: m a -> a, then it might reasonable to have an abstraction. |
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| 02:34:16 | hackage | hasql-notifications 0.2.0.0 - LISTEN/NOTIFY support for Hasql https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hasql-notifications-0.2.0.0 (diogob) |
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| 02:35:15 | <gnumonic> | That's fair. I was really just curious, and a class like that would have made the types line up for an experiment that I can't actually think of an application for. Sometimes it's fun to just see what you can stick together while appeasing the compiler. But thanks :) |
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| 02:37:08 | <shachaf> | No, of course it's a reasonable question, but I think there's no particularly good general answer. |
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| 02:55:59 | curiousgay | using GHC 9.0.1 |
| 02:56:26 | <curiousgay> | I want to cry, many packages are impossible to install because they require base to be version less than 4.15 |
| 03:01:40 | <dmj`> | curiousgay: try 8.10.4 |
| 03:02:50 | <dmj`> | curiousgay: you must be patient grasshopper |
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| 03:17:04 | <curiousgay> | dmj`: yeah, also it appears even with GHC 8.10.4 reflex is not available to me |
| 03:17:26 | <dmj`> | curiousgay: should be |
| 03:17:43 | <curiousgay> | base (>=4.9 && <4.14) |
| 03:18:28 | <curiousgay> | just why people have such inadequate requirements to dependencies |
| 03:19:04 | <dmj`> | curiousgay: well then heaven forbid use 8.10.3 |
| 03:19:08 | <dmj`> | nix-shell -p 'haskellPackages.ghcWithPackages(p: with p; [reflex])' --run 'ghc-pkg list reflex' |
| 03:19:14 | <dmj`> | > reflex-0.8.0.0 |
| 03:19:16 | <lambdabot> | error: Variable not in scope: reflex :: a -> c |
| 03:19:40 | <dmj`> | no flex zone |
| 03:20:54 | <curiousgay> | I mean every new release of base 4 is backwards compatible, right? |
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| 03:21:16 | <dmj`> | curiousgay: there's a base-compat library that's meant to help with this sort of thing |
| 03:22:09 | <dmj`> | curiousgay: I just wouldn't upgrade the compiler until library authors are on board, stackage process will pressure people to upgrade |
| 03:22:28 | <dmj`> | pressure library authors* to upgrade |
| 03:22:37 | <curiousgay> | dmj`: I mean that base 4.15 is compatible with base 4.9, right? |
| 03:23:07 | <curiousgay> | otherwise I don't understand the versioning |
| 03:24:14 | <curiousgay> | minor version number increase is supposed to mean that API is stable |
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| 03:24:21 | <ephemient> | curiousgay: most Haskell packages follow PVP not semver |
| 03:25:09 | <Clint> | curiousgay: just file bugs and accept this as a phenomenon that isn't getting fixed anytime soon |
| 03:25:14 | <ephemient> | if you want to think of it like semver, treat "4.9" as the major version, not "4" |
| 03:25:56 | <curiousgay> | ephemient: then many packages use base "<5" in dependencies by mistake? |
| 03:26:38 | <int-e> | curiousgay: tbf, base is too big for meaningful semantic versioning |
| 03:27:02 | <ephemient> | not everybody agrees on whether to use narrow bounds or wide bounds |
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| 03:27:21 | <int-e> | every release there's a breaking change in some part of it... but for most changes, almost all code will be fine. |
| 03:27:27 | <ephemient> | in practice, base and GHC versions are tied |
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| 03:27:34 | <int-e> | also base is tied to the compiler anyway |
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| 03:27:56 | <ephemient> | if you're coming from GHC 8.0/base 4.9, MonadFail probably broke the most code |
| 03:28:13 | <int-e> | so taking those two together... the lazy approach where you make a loose upper bound (base <5) and revise it when your code does break seems quite reasonable |
| 03:28:14 | <dmj`> | I don't think Foldable Traversable was backwards compatible (i.e. burning bridges) |
| 03:28:42 | <int-e> | it wasn't |
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| 03:30:09 | <dmj`> | Oh |
| 03:30:20 | <dmj`> | I meant to say incompatible, sorry |
| 03:30:44 | <int-e> | sure? |
| 03:30:56 | <dmj`> | Nah, I had it right the first time. |
| 03:30:59 | <dmj`> | sorry again |
| 03:31:01 | <int-e> | what you wrote made sense to me... okay :) |
| 03:31:10 | <int-e> | negations are hard |
| 03:31:10 | <dmj`> | wine + IRC |
| 03:31:47 | <dmj`> | truth |
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| 03:33:05 | <curiousgay> | https://pvp.haskell.org/ it's similar to semver, but I don't understand the need for number A in A.B.C |
| 03:33:32 | <int-e> | curiousgay: optics |
| 03:33:48 | <int-e> | you push the major version number all the time |
| 03:34:15 | <int-e> | but sometimes you reach a milestone in development... and want to mark that visibly |
| 03:34:29 | <curiousgay> | like EPOCH? |
| 03:34:50 | <int-e> | epoch, sure, why not |
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| 03:35:51 | <int-e> | at some point, the version number loses all its meaning |
| 03:36:01 | <int-e> | Firefox is at 78 now, or is that 87 ;) |
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| 03:37:28 | <curiousgay> | now as I see it: GHC provides many libraries which break compatibility, but because those libraries are part of it they can't be built independently with specific version, which means every project must adjust to every GHC release |
| 03:39:04 | <int-e> | yes, so after every release there's a tidal wave moving through the ecosystem as packages are getting updated in dependency order... |
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| 03:40:23 | <curiousgay> | that's insane |
| 03:40:33 | <curiousgay> | now I understand why GHC doesn't have competitors |
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| 03:42:59 | <int-e> | <joke>Well it is a Microsoft product... it took a standard (Haskell98, Haskell2010), embraced it, and extended it until no competitor could catch up anymore.</joke> |
| 03:43:03 | <curiousgay> | and I understand the need of stack, guh |
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| 03:45:03 | <curiousgay> | int-e: extended standard is not the problem I see here, the problem I see is the standard, GHC, breaks at every release, it's unstable, catching up to unstable standard is much more work than catching up to constantly extending standard |
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| 03:48:25 | <curiousgay> | if those libraries were not part of GHC, I guess cabal could manage that by building different versions of libraries |
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| 03:50:29 | <curiousgay> | because of this hell I'm unable to build both reflex and reactive-banana, I need FRP GUI library |
| 03:50:34 | <dmj`> | curiousgay: GHC could easily have competitors on the backend, probably not the front end w/o going to dependent types. |
| 03:51:27 | <curiousgay> | do you know any kind of FRP GUI that builds with GHC 8.10.4? |
| 03:51:37 | <int-e> | curiousgay: there's a lot of moving parts between ghc, the rts, and the base libraries. template-haskell is another frequent source of friction, again explained because it's so close to the compiler |
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| 03:53:12 | <curiousgay> | int-e: internal moving parts that should not be dependencies of any packages are fine, but if they are externals that's a big problem |
| 03:53:16 | <int-e> | And somehow, ghc keeps bringing enough improvements to the table that people keep updating to the latest or second-latest version. |
| 03:55:02 | <dmj`> | curiousgay: GHC is a very old project, it predates LLVM, and operated under a different set of assumptions than we have today. |
| 03:55:22 | <dmj`> | curiousgay: did you try netwire? |
| 03:55:39 | <int-e> | curiousgay: you simply can't take base-4.12 and compile it with ghc-9.0.1 because its implementation has changed a lot even if the API hasn't. That's one of the reason why the two are bundled. |
| 03:55:56 | <ephemient> | base also includes API improvements that can't have been done without breakages |
| 03:56:14 | <ephemient> | I mean, I suppose it's arguable whether those should have been carried out, but I think the community mostly agrees |
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| 03:56:40 | <int-e> | curiousgay: there's agreement that base is too large and that some parts should be split off so that they can be updated independently. but progress on this front is small to non-existant. It's hard to disentangle the parts, and it's a thankless job to try. |
| 03:57:13 | <curiousgay> | dmj`: does netwire have a sibling library for GUI that will build? |
| 03:58:26 | <dmj`> | curiousgay: probably, but take a look at your life, do you really need a bleeding edge GHC right now, iPhone 10 is almost as good as iPhone 11 |
| 03:59:02 | <dmj`> | curiousgay: you can also do the dirty work of the library maintainer and upgrade the libraries you want to use to be compatible with 8.10.4 |
| 03:59:18 | <dmj`> | you might end up upgrading a lot of libraries though .. esp. for dep. heavy libraries |
| 03:59:23 | <curiousgay> | int-e: ephemient: those breaking improvements make many projects rot quickly when maintainers loose their time or interest to keep up, that's not fair |
| 03:59:43 | <sclv> | fair? |
| 03:59:44 | <ephemient> | if it's a matter of just bumping bounds and they're in stackage, somebody will probably get around to it |
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| 04:00:22 | <curiousgay> | I stopped using stack because there are less buildable packages than in cabal |
| 04:00:49 | <sclv> | base has a 3 release policy that says it makes its changes in a very incremental way so that code can always be written that is backwards compatible with the last three releases |
| 04:02:02 | <ephemient> | there are fewer packages total, but they all build, whereas that is not necessarily the case with cabal |
| 04:02:15 | <ephemient> | stack has its upsides and downsides |
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| 04:07:42 | <DigitalKiwi> | kiwi@mvp-nixos ~ []$ nix-shell -p "haskellPackages.ghcWithPackages (pkgs: with pkgs; [GPipe reflex reactive-banana])" -I nixpkgs-overlays=/home/kiwi/.config/nixpkgs/overlays --run "ghc-pkg list"|grep -E 'GPipe|reflex|reactive-banana' |
| 04:07:42 | <DigitalKiwi> | GPipe-2.2.5 |
| 04:07:42 | <DigitalKiwi> | reactive-banana-1.2.1.0 |
| 04:07:43 | <DigitalKiwi> | reflex-0.8.0.0 |
| 04:07:46 | <DigitalKiwi> | tada |
| 04:08:21 | <curiousgay> | dmj`: what I need becomes confusing because if different packages are exclusively buildable with different versions of GHC that means I need to have many versions of GHC at once and be extremely careful while dealing with all of that |
| 04:08:42 | <dmj`> | curiousgay: just use an old ghc, why do you need a bleeding edge one. You'll end up just writing a bunch of C anyways if you're building a game, haskell heap + GC is death for frame rate |
| 04:09:13 | <DigitalKiwi> | [nix-shell:~]$ ghci |
| 04:09:14 | <DigitalKiwi> | GHCi, version 8.10.4 |
| 04:09:25 | <dmj`> | curiousgay: I think you're over thinking it |
| 04:09:35 | <DigitalKiwi> | do i win a prize |
| 04:09:39 | <curiousgay> | dmj`: performance is not important for minimal 2D game without animations |
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| 04:10:16 | <dmj`> | curiousgay: use netwire + SDL2 |
| 04:10:21 | <DigitalKiwi> | for 1 bitcoin i will reveal the contents of ~/.config/nixpkgs/overlays |
| 04:10:30 | <dmj`> | @package SDL2 |
| 04:10:30 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/SDL2 |
| 04:10:35 | <dmj`> | @package netwire |
| 04:10:35 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/netwire |
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| 04:11:48 | <dmj`> | curiousgay: I just compiled an asteroids game that uses these 2 and it worked ... |
| 04:11:56 | <dmj`> | it was 2D |
| 04:12:36 | <curiousgay> | dmj`: eh, isn't a separate library required for making SDL reactive that will depend on both netwire and SDL? |
| 04:13:00 | <DigitalKiwi> | better hurry though market's bearish the price will be 2 bitcoin soon |
| 04:14:04 | <dmj`> | curiousgay: you don't need FRP, ever. Most games you play don't use it. But to answer your question, no, a separate library isn't required. |
| 04:15:29 | <dmj`> | curiousgay: netwire doesn't use unsafePerformIO either |
| 04:15:30 | <curiousgay> | my goal is learning |
| 04:15:49 | <curiousgay> | so I need to learn FRP |
| 04:16:45 | <desophos> | i have a function "chunk" that splits a list into multiple equal-length lists that uses splitAt. i'm refactoring my program from String to ByteString, which has its own splitAt implementation. what's the best way to reuse my chunk function for ByteString? take the splitting fn as an argument? write a "Chunkable" typeclass with instances for list and ByteString? i'm open to any suggestions, thanks! |
| 04:16:52 | <desophos> | the function in question: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/rK72njri |
| 04:21:00 | <dmj`> | curiousgay: this project uses netwire, opengl, sdl2, linear and compiled with 8.10.4 for me, https://github.com/ehofreiter/relativistic-asteroids/blob/master/package.yaml |
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| 04:28:48 | <dmj`> | desophos: probably can't reuse it, could try a typeclass yea |
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| 04:29:47 | <dmj`> | @package split |
| 04:29:47 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/split |
| 04:29:57 | <dmj`> | there's this, can't remember if it works on ByteString though |
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| 04:31:24 | <desophos> | hmm, looks like it only works on lists |
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| 04:45:04 | <outerpassage_> | is there any way to avoid cabal recompiling everything during a `v2-install` after already having built the package with `v2-build`? |
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| 04:58:25 | <desophos> | ugh, why doesn't ByteString implement mapM... |
| 04:59:11 | <bss03> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mono-traversable-1.0.15.1/docs/Data-MonoTraversable.html#v:omapM instead |
| 05:00:23 | <desophos> | ah, thank you! |
| 05:01:39 | <bss03> | desophos: It's because ByteString can only hold Word8 values, so if the function you are mapping is type `Word8 -> m Integer` it can't put the (Integer) results into the `m ByteString` result. |
| 05:02:59 | <desophos> | but it already defines `map :: (Word8 -> Word8) -> ByteString -> ByteString`, so why not `mapM :: (Word8 -> m Word8) -> ByteString -> m ByteString`? |
| 05:03:38 | <bss03> | Ah, yeah, well, it could do that. :/ |
| 05:04:27 | <bss03> | Probably didn't want to "steal" that name from Traversable. |
| 05:05:25 | <bss03> | `map` from ByteString might predate Traversable? Certianly `map` from Prelude used to only work on lists. |
| 05:07:23 | <desophos> | hmm, well i guess it makes more sense to have generic MonoTraversable classes instead of writing specific functions for each monomorphic container type |
| 05:07:41 | <desophos> | either way, mono-traversable is what i was looking for, thanks! |
| 05:07:56 | <bss03> | YW, NP |
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| 05:12:53 | <bss03> | I've got a personal project that's in Vue + TS, I'd like to convert it over to something using GHCJS. Any hints / tips? Project: https://gitlab.com/bss03/vue-webpack-ts-lambda/-/tree/master/src |
| 05:16:46 | hackage | dhall-lsp-server 1.0.14 - Language Server Protocol (LSP) server for Dhall https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dhall-lsp-server-1.0.14 (GabrielGonzalez) |
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| 05:24:46 | hackage | dhall-json 1.7.6 - Convert between Dhall and JSON or YAML https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dhall-json-1.7.6 (GabrielGonzalez) |
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| 05:25:46 | hackage | dhall-yaml 1.2.6 - Convert between Dhall and YAML https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dhall-yaml-1.2.6 (GabrielGonzalez) |
| 05:27:46 | hackage | dhall-docs 1.0.5 - Generate HTML docs from a dhall package https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dhall-docs-1.0.5 (GabrielGonzalez) |
| 05:28:46 | hackage | dhall 1.38.1 - A configuration language guaranteed to terminate https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dhall-1.38.1 (GabrielGonzalez) |
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| 05:39:46 | hackage | openai-servant 0.2.0.0 - Unofficial OpenAI servant types https://hackage.haskell.org/package/openai-servant-0.2.0.0 (AlexanderThiemann) |
| 05:40:46 | hackage | openai-hs 0.2.0.0 - Unofficial OpenAI client https://hackage.haskell.org/package/openai-hs-0.2.0.0 (AlexanderThiemann) |
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| 05:49:02 | <aryakiran> | hi |
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| 05:49:18 | <aryakiran> | i installed xmobar xmonad-contrib xmobar on void |
| 05:49:34 | <aryakiran> | when i do startx it starts the default xmonad config |
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| 05:49:38 | <aryakiran> | not my config |
| 05:50:18 | <aryakiran> | my config is in both .xmonad & .config/xmonad |
| 05:52:28 | <bss03> | *shrug* I don't know void, but my Debian loads it out of ~/.xmonad |
| 05:54:51 | <aryakiran> | i also get this error when i do xmonad --recompile |
| 05:55:18 | <aryakiran> | couldmt find module 'XMonad' |
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| 06:04:28 | <bss03> | Hmm. You might have an environment files hanging around that doesn't expose the XMonad module by default? |
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| 06:05:39 | <bss03> | I dislike how those work, and I'm not sure if they'd even affect an `xmonad --recompile` but they fsck with my `ghci` environment sometimes and I've had to delete them. |
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| 06:13:50 | <jonathanx> | Is there a function with signature ((a -> Maybe a) -> [a] -> Maybe [a]) which returns Just [a] if a single element was updated, and Nothing otherwise? |
| 06:14:10 | <jonathanx> | I can ofc throw it together myself, but I'm curious about if there's any existing |
| 06:14:11 | <jonathanx> | :) |
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| 06:25:09 | <bss03> | mapMaybe ? |
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| 06:41:13 | <gnumonic> | Does this seem familiar to anyone? "type Something k t a b = (Control.Comonad.Store.Store (Map.Map k (a -> t a)) (t b))"? Or maybe: "Something k t a = (Store (Map.Map k (a -> t a)) (t a))"? |
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| 06:44:11 | <bss03> | Not to me. :( |
| 06:49:10 | <gnumonic> | No is ok, I just came up with it and wanted to see if anyone else had first before I try to make something with it :p |
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| 06:52:04 | <outerpassage_> | https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/latest/setup-commands.html#creating-a-binary-package |
| 06:52:25 | <outerpassage_> | is this still the recommended way to do this? wondering if it's necessary to go through the low-level Setup.hs interface |
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| 07:19:03 | <bss03> | Are you packaging for a specific distribution, for installation as a global package. |
| 07:21:06 | <bss03> | If so, I think per-distribution docs might be better. E.g. Debian has specific helpers for packaging haskell packages. |
| 07:24:26 | <bss03> | If not, I do think that's probably up-to-date. There's not v2-* cabal-install commands for some of those Setup.hs modes. |
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| 07:32:25 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://github.com/nh2/static-haskell-nix may be an option |
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| 08:27:32 | <outerpassage_> | thanks, yeah it's for a specific distribution (alpine) |
| 08:28:17 | <outerpassage_> | the alpine docs recommend `cabal install` with `--enable-relocatable`, which afaict isn't actually supported |
| 08:28:22 | <outerpassage_> | https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/462 |
| 08:29:08 | <outerpassage_> | seems to be working well with Setup.hs anyway |
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| 10:04:16 | hackage | scroll-list 1.0.0.1 - This package provides functions for relocate an item within a list. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/scroll-list-1.0.0.1 (fesanmar) |
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| 10:16:46 | hackage | postgresql-pure 0.2.3.0 - pure Haskell PostgreSQL driver https://hackage.haskell.org/package/postgresql-pure-0.2.3.0 (kakkun61) |
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| 10:50:46 | hackage | hakyll-filestore 0.1.9 - FileStore utilities for Hakyll https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hakyll-filestore-0.1.9 (aergus) |
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| 11:46:54 | <maerwald> | is there a function somewhere that does: encodeChar :: Char -> [Word16] |
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| 12:01:46 | hackage | ttc 0.4.0.0 - Textual Type Classes https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ttc-0.4.0.0 (TravisCardwell) |
| 12:02:46 | hackage | cabal-rpm 2.0.8 - RPM packaging tool for Haskell Cabal-based packages https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cabal-rpm-2.0.8 (JensPetersen) |
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| 12:14:43 | <Xnuk> | Can I check optimizaion flag in -XCPP ? |
| 12:14:59 | <__monty__> | maerwald: Why Word16? Sounds like you're trying to pull UTF-16 shenanigans that won't work. |
| 12:15:27 | <geekosaur> | Xnuk, no, it's not exposed as a cpp macro |
| 12:17:21 | <Xnuk> | :( |
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| 12:19:05 | <geekosaur> | you could "package" optimization and a reflection into cpp together via cabal flags, although there'd be no guarantee that someone else used them |
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| 12:35:36 | <geekosaur> | I'd have questions about how to represent "almost" states, since e.g. -O1 is shorthand for a bunch of different optimization flags |
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| 12:42:59 | <cjay> | can cabal somehow run a single haskell file that uses a package not included with ghc? so something like "stack --package"? |
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| 12:47:25 | <__monty__> | It definitely did at some point, https://github.com/haskell/cabal/pull/5483 Can't find docs on it anymore though. |
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| 12:50:17 | <cjay> | oh thanks, that magic comment seems to work |
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| 12:51:23 | <__monty__> | \o/ |
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| 12:53:33 | <cjay> | HIE can't seem to deal with it though, so no editor integration |
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| 12:55:26 | <__monty__> | Path of least resistance is definitely to just have a full cabal project. |
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| 12:58:11 | <cjay> | yeah. it's just nice for small example files that can be easily shared. |
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| 12:59:38 | <L29Ah> | runhaskell(1)? |
| 12:59:47 | <cjay> | I just figured out that UnliftIO.Exception.catch behaves differently than Control.Exception.catch, it just ignores async exceptions. pain. that cost me at least half an hour because I assumed it's just a drop-in replacement like the rest of the lib.. |
| 13:00:17 | <geekosaur> | L29Ah, the question was about exposing additional cabal packages to such a script |
| 13:01:02 | <cjay> | yeah, maybe it could be fed some internal package db of cabal, but that would be dirty I think |
| 13:02:11 | <geekosaur> | cabal exec does that but it still needs to be told which packages to put into said db |
| 13:02:39 | <geekosaur> | (there is no master db that can be exposed, the problems with that kind of db are why cabal and stack exist) |
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| 13:07:55 | <__monty__> | cjay: From what I've picked up in this channel it's probably because the other catch doesn't deal with async exceptions properly either. The probably figured better not to than fail in weird and unexpected ways. |
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| 13:11:05 | <cjay> | :/ |
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| 13:14:17 | <__monty__> | (Best to wait for confirmation of this from someone who actually knows what they're talking about but it's definitely the vibe I've gotten from async exception discussion.) |
| 13:15:22 | <cjay> | yeah thanks |
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| 13:19:21 | <cjay> | the unliftio docs have me confused.. they make it sound like one should never be using throwTo, but don't explain what one should do instead |
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| 13:20:35 | <cjay> | I need a way for child threads to communicate errors back to the parent thread, I don't think that can be done with Async or something like that |
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| 13:21:00 | <cjay> | having the parent thread poll for the status of the chlid thread sucks |
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| 13:23:28 | <maerwald> | __monty__: why would that not work |
| 13:23:48 | <maerwald> | that's exactly what Text does: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/text-1.2.4.1/docs/src/Data.Text.Internal.Unsafe.Char.html#unsafeWrite |
| 13:24:57 | <__monty__> | Because you have to be really careful not to break up codepoints. |
| 13:25:10 | <__monty__> | UTF-16 is not a fixed-width encoding. |
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| 13:26:13 | <maerwald> | I can't follow. Unicode codepoint to UTF16 seems like a well defined thing |
| 13:26:47 | <__monty__> | Sure, but some codepoints require two Word16s to be represented. |
| 13:27:02 | <geekosaur> | did you notice he asked for a list of Word16? |
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| 13:28:05 | <__monty__> | Yes, but I was thinking of Char as python does it. Apologies. |
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| 13:41:16 | hackage | heyting-algebras 0.2.0.1 - Heyting and Boolean algebras https://hackage.haskell.org/package/heyting-algebras-0.2.0.1 (coot) |
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| 14:15:01 | <peanut_> | what is a function type constructor |
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| 14:28:09 | <cjay> | peanut_: (->) in type signatures I think |
| 14:29:01 | <peanut_> | :t map |
| 14:29:03 | <lambdabot> | (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] |
| 14:29:12 | <peanut_> | like that (a -> b)? |
| 14:29:44 | <cjay> | that is a function type, the function type constructor applied to two type variables |
| 14:29:44 | <peanut_> | though i think thats just a function type |
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| 14:30:03 | <cjay> | :kind (->) |
| 14:30:10 | <cjay> | :t (->) |
| 14:30:12 | <lambdabot> | error: parse error on input ‘->’ |
| 14:30:30 | cjay | slaps lambdabot |
| 14:30:38 | <peanut_> | lol |
| 14:30:43 | <cjay> | ghci can do :kind |
| 14:30:51 | <enikar> | % :kind (->) |
| 14:30:51 | <yahb> | enikar: * -> * -> * |
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| 14:32:28 | <enikar> | yahb works is a ghci :) |
| 14:32:35 | <peanut_> | ooh its straight up just "(->)" |
| 14:32:50 | <peanut_> | that makes more sense now, thanks |
| 14:32:52 | <enikar> | oops s/works// |
| 14:32:59 | <cjay> | :) |
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| 14:37:14 | <cjay> | Man, I wonder what was going on in the heads of whoever made unliftio. The safe-exceptions package of the same company has a catchAsync, and they admit themselves that it is needed in the README. But UnliftIO.Exception just omits any way to catch async exceptions. |
| 14:37:29 | <cjay> | so weird |
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| 14:38:18 | <cjay> | unlifting the catch from base manually is easy, but omitting it suggests that one should not be using it, which as far as I understand it, is just wrong |
| 14:42:46 | hackage | math-functions 0.3.4.2 - Collection of tools for numeric computations https://hackage.haskell.org/package/math-functions-0.3.4.2 (AlexeyKhudyakov) |
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| 15:07:16 | hackage | slick 1.1.1.0 - A quick & easy static site builder built with shake and pandoc. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/slick-1.1.1.0 (ChrisPenner) |
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| 15:33:21 | <maerwald> | How would one construct a filepath according to the abstract filepath proposal from a ByteString. On Unix you have two choices: `id` or a random encoding (utf8). On Windows, you must encode as utf16LE (ascii is a possibility too, but MS is deprecating those syscalls afaiu) |
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| 15:34:14 | <maerwald> | it seems you could go for id for unix and lenientDecode on windows, but that doesn't seem well defined either |
| 15:34:57 | <maerwald> | Maybe FilePath -- seems ridiculous, when it can only fail on one platform |
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| 16:00:04 | <plakband> | Does someone have a recommendation for how to best generate LLVM from Haskell? The llvm-hs package seems outdated and a little light on documentation, am I better off just using the bindings directly? |
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| 16:06:16 | hackage | dhall-openapi 1.0.0 - Convert an OpenAPI specification to a Dhall package https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dhall-openapi-1.0.0 (GabrielGonzalez) |
| 16:06:38 | <_bin> | c |
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| 16:39:21 | <ephemient> | maerwald: Microsoft is gradually making it possible to use UTF-8 with the old -A (non-widechar) API: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/design/globalizing/use-utf8-code-page |
| 16:39:38 | <xerox_> | by what magic `instance Read X where readPrec = ...' only works when you import GHC.Read? (is that even the right way to go about it? it's just what I found, trying to follow the advice in the Prelude docs about implementing readPrec instead of readsPrec) |
| 16:40:15 | <ephemient> | so I'd say it's the opposite of being deprecated |
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| 16:42:09 | <ephemient> | xerox_: Prelude exports Read(readsPrec, readList) - it doesn't export Read(readPrec). if you want to, it would be better to import it via Text.Read |
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| 16:43:16 | <c_wraith> | xerox_: that's why the error message says it's not a *visible* member |
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| 16:45:16 | <xerox_> | gotcha, appreciate it |
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| 17:10:59 | <maerwald> | ephemient: that doesn't change the base problem: how to deal with invalid unicode data |
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| 17:11:57 | <ephemient> | I mean, even on Linux where the API doesn't enforce valid Unicode, it's entirely possible that the filesystem you're working on does... so you have to handle invalid filenames at that point regardless |
| 17:12:31 | <maerwald> | ephemient: on unix, filenames are char[] |
| 17:12:57 | <maerwald> | the only invalid bytes are '/' and \0 |
| 17:13:07 | <ephemient> | yes, but if the user has a NTFS filesystem mounted, you can't create invalid filenames - you'll get an error at open time |
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| 17:13:28 | <ephemient> | also on macos - also has UNIX-like char[] filenames, but performs Unicode normalization on it |
| 17:13:48 | <maerwald> | linux doesn't perform unicode normalization though |
| 17:14:43 | <geekosaur> | filesystems can though, and iirc there's at least one hfs+ driver out there |
| 17:14:47 | <ephemient> | and macos's normalization rules are also different on HFS+ and AFS... |
| 17:15:08 | <maerwald> | so: BytesString to FilePath conversion on unix systems cannot fail, but it can fail on windows. The question is how to abstract over that |
| 17:15:24 | <ephemient> | you have to worry about whether the whole encode+open sequence can fail |
| 17:15:34 | <ephemient> | why do anything special about filename encoding failure? |
| 17:16:09 | <maerwald> | geekosaur: what's relevant is what the syscalls accept |
| 17:16:41 | <ephemient> | maerwald: you don't know what the syscalls accept, there's restrictions beyond char[] |
| 17:16:56 | <maerwald> | ephemient: what restriction is there on linux? |
| 17:17:12 | <ephemient> | depends on the filesystems in use |
| 17:17:49 | <ephemient> | Linux can mount FAT and NTFS filesystems, which will apply those rules, and FUSE filesystems which can do anything |
| 17:18:16 | <ephemient> | there isn't a global PATH_MAX but different filesystems have internal limits |
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| 17:19:29 | <maerwald> | well, I'm not sure I want to do anything about that... following POSIX, everything except null byte and '/' is allowed |
| 17:19:50 | <ephemient> | POSIX allows for systems to apply more restrictions than that |
| 17:20:02 | <maerwald> | yes, but that's up to the user to ensure |
| 17:20:11 | <maerwald> | not to a library implementing FilePath type |
| 17:20:24 | <maerwald> | you can consider what filesystem you support |
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| 17:21:03 | <ephemient> | in practice Gnome presumes that file paths are UTF-8 encoded and KDE assumes that file paths are $LOCALE encoded (which is going to be UTF-8 these days) |
| 17:21:19 | <maerwald> | yeah, I want to avoid exactly those assumptions |
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| 17:21:47 | <ephemient> | you will have to handle unexpected failures later, regardless of what you assume up front |
| 17:21:55 | <maerwald> | the question now is how to unify over windows and unix (given that we assume all ByteStrings are valid on unix) |
| 17:22:15 | <maerwald> | when converting FROM ByteString |
| 17:22:19 | ← | jakalx parts (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ("Error from remote client") |
| 17:23:22 | <ephemient> | I would leave it as a bytestring until open() time, which can fail due to encoding *or* system-specific reasons |
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| 17:24:00 | <maerwald> | this is what I've done: https://git.io/JYsjV |
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| 17:25:53 | <maerwald> | FileSystem support is up to an application to worry about imo. E.g. some applications don't support AUFS, because it breaks `rename` sometimes (you need portable file copy). |
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| 17:26:41 | <ephemient> | I don't see why you need detect invalid Windows filenames earlier than `open` time |
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| 17:26:54 | <maerwald> | ephemient: that's the invariant for the type |
| 17:26:56 | <ephemient> | you can't detect many cases of invalid filenames without trying to `open` them, across all OSes |
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| 17:27:18 | <maerwald> | did you read the abstract filepath proposal? |
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| 17:29:22 | <ephemient> | `data WindowsFilePath = WFP ByteArray# -- UTF16 data` doesn't seem like the right thing to do, to me |
| 17:29:42 | <maerwald> | well, I'm implementing it, so this is assumed as correct |
| 17:31:54 | <maerwald> | I'm less worried about the internal representation decisions, but how the abstraction will play out (or if there's no reasonable one). Converting from ByteString is one of those things that can't be properly abstracted over. Another option is to just refer ppl to the internals if they need that kind of thing |
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| 17:33:16 | <maerwald> | that's why there are 2 constructors |
| 17:33:38 | <maerwald> | so you don't accidentially write one codepath if you start matching on the raw data |
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| 17:35:02 | <ephemient> | if I were targeting W10+ only, I'd use UTF-8 across all platforms, period |
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| 17:36:30 | <ephemient> | with older Windows in the mix... `data WindowsFilePath = WFPW {- UTF-16 -} | WFPA {- UTF-8 -}` I guess. a bit unfortunate in that it would require a custom Eq that uses the current codepage for conversion |
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| 17:37:52 | <d34df00d> | Hi! |
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| 17:41:24 | <maerwald> | ephemient: rust does a very similar thing to the abstract filepath proposal, see OsString. It's Vec<u8> on unix and WTF-8 (more lax utf-8) on windows |
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| 17:42:29 | <maerwald> | but it is more than about filepaths, so it's not a clean abstraction |
| 17:43:07 | <maerwald> | https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/ffi/index.html#conversions is also interesting |
| 17:43:38 | <maerwald> | following that, they would only expose `fromByteString` on unix via CPP ifdef |
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| 17:47:56 | <curl> | is there a name for the first argument of (a->(o,a)) -> a -> [o] |
| 17:48:42 | <curl> | or of that function? |
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| 17:49:56 | <maerwald> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/fixed-vector-1.2.0.0/docs/Data-Vector-Fixed.html#v:unfoldr |
| 17:49:58 | <maerwald> | unfold? |
| 17:50:46 | hackage | zenacy-unicode 1.0.1 - Unicode utilities for Haskell https://hackage.haskell.org/package/zenacy-unicode-1.0.1 (mlcfp) |
| 17:50:47 | <curl> | :t unfoldr |
| 17:50:48 | <lambdabot> | (b -> Maybe (a, b)) -> b -> [a] |
| 17:51:01 | <curl> | yeah i see |
| 17:51:03 | <curl> | thanks |
| 17:51:46 | hackage | zenacy-html 2.0.3 - A standard compliant HTML parsing library https://hackage.haskell.org/package/zenacy-html-2.0.3 (mlcfp) |
| 17:52:12 | <curl> | i guess i can always use Just to make the maybe version |
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| 17:54:15 | <curl> | how do i compose things like that together? i guess i need a fold inbetween to use fusion |
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| 17:55:57 | <curl> | probably just successive traversals and mappings, but i want the data to feed through one element at a time through some kind of sequence of processes each of which has its own memory state |
| 17:56:15 | <curl> | at least notionally |
| 17:56:36 | <curl> | or, because that can be a way of looking at it, that maybe there is a way of coding that is like that |
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| 17:57:23 | <curl> | does that make sense? feeding the data one element at a time through some kind of stationary bunch of functions |
| 17:57:28 | <maerwald> | > unfoldr (\b -> if b < 5 then Just (b, b + 1) else Nothing) 1 |
| 17:57:31 | <lambdabot> | [1,2,3,4] |
| 17:58:02 | <maerwald> | b is your state |
| 17:58:18 | <maerwald> | `Nothing` aborts the loop |
| 17:58:34 | <curl> | :t mapAccumr undefined undefined $ unfoldr (\b -> if b < 5 then Just (b, b + 1) else Nothing) 1 |
| 17:58:35 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 17:58:36 | <lambdabot> | • Variable not in scope: mapAccumr :: t0 -> t1 -> [a0] -> t |
| 17:58:36 | <lambdabot> | • Perhaps you meant one of these: |
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| 18:02:27 | <curl> | > mapAccumR (\x y -> (x+1,x+y)) 0 $ unfoldr (\b -> if b < 5 then Just (b, b + 1) else Nothing) 1 |
| 18:02:29 | <lambdabot> | (4,[4,4,4,4]) |
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| 18:03:38 | <curl> | > mapAccumL (\x y -> (x+1,x+y)) 0 $ unfoldr (\b -> if b < 5 then Just (b, b + 1) else Nothing) 1 |
| 18:03:41 | <lambdabot> | (4,[1,3,5,7]) |
| 18:04:11 | <curl> | see how the 0 enters and acts as a state undergoing +1 |
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| 18:05:24 | <curl> | so you see the idea of "composing" these things together, with them aech having their own state? |
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| 18:07:27 | <curl> | i guess there is some condition of the first argument of mapAccumL where it can factorise over 2 mapAccumL's in series |
| 18:08:24 | <curl> | giving some rewrite rule that mashed them all into one call to mapAccumL |
| 18:08:34 | <curl> | or even by fusion right into the unfold |
| 18:09:01 | <curl> | mashes* |
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| 18:09:33 | <curl> | :t mapAccumL |
| 18:09:35 | <lambdabot> | Traversable t => (a -> b -> (a, c)) -> a -> t b -> (a, t c) |
| 18:09:47 | <curl> | they are all these things of type (a -> b -> (a, c)) |
| 18:10:06 | <curl> | `a' is acting as the state there |
| 18:10:44 | <curl> | though i prefer (i -> s -> (o,s)) = State s i o |
| 18:11:28 | <curl> | the proposal is there should be some kind of fusion for states being sequentially composed down into an unfold |
| 18:11:59 | <curl> | i guess this already happens with Traversable somehow |
| 18:12:06 | <ephemient> | > let (_, fib) = mapAccumL (\a b -> (a + b, a)) 1 (0:fib) in 0:fib |
| 18:12:08 | <lambdabot> | [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,... |
| 18:12:20 | <__minoru__shirae> | curl: "one element at a time" - in haskell you don't have to build the whole list to start handling its elements |
| 18:12:35 | <curl> | its a notion embodied in the fusion |
| 18:12:42 | <curl> | its how you can get it down to an unfold |
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| 18:13:19 | <curl> | you think of the sequence of composed states processing one value at a time, and this sequence being composed down to one action by the fusion |
| 18:13:31 | <ephemient> | > unfoldr (Just . \(a, b) -> (a, (b, a + b))) (0, 1) |
| 18:13:33 | <lambdabot> | [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,... |
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| 18:14:23 | <curl> | right, you should alsways be able to rewrite any mapAccumL over any unfolded list, into just one unfold |
| 18:14:45 | <__minoru__shirae> | curl: you mean functions with signature "a -> m ()", right? |
| 18:14:55 | <curl> | no... |
| 18:15:05 | <curl> | not sure where you got that from |
| 18:15:22 | <__minoru__shirae> | curl: "you think of the sequence of composed states processing one value at a time, and this sequence being composed down to one action by the fusion" |
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| 18:15:41 | <__minoru__shirae> | what is the signature of that action? |
| 18:15:54 | <curl> | well just one state i guess |
| 18:16:12 | <curl> | states i was writing (i -> s -> (o,s)) |
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| 18:16:50 | <curl> | which is backwards of how they appear in mapAccumL as (a -> b -> (a,c)) |
| 18:17:02 | <curl> | :t mapAccumL |
| 18:17:04 | <lambdabot> | Traversable t => (a -> b -> (a, c)) -> a -> t b -> (a, t c) |
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| 18:18:24 | <curl> | basically you have a bunch of i's and o's that have to match up, and a bunch of s's which are grouped together into one effective state |
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| 18:20:18 | <curl> | like, 2 mapAccumL in series is like one with the pair of the states of each as its state |
| 18:21:55 | <curl> | anyway, even if you dont think of the elements being processed one at a time going through the states, the states still end up in a list more or less, so there is still the idea of this processor that the elements are being fed through |
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| 18:22:28 | <curl> | i guess i should distinguish between states and state functions... |
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| 18:22:45 | <curl> | states s, state function i -> s -> (o,s) |
| 18:23:25 | <monochrom> | Perhaps you like "state transition function". |
| 18:23:26 | <curl> | a sequence of state functions becomes a state function with a list of states as its state |
| 18:23:31 | <__minoru__shirae> | how about the obvisous solution, calling mapAccumL, then taking its result and then calling the next mapAccumL on it |
| 18:23:50 | <curl> | yeah thats how they compose |
| 18:23:55 | <curl> | in sequence or series |
| 18:24:33 | <curl> | so mapAccumL takes both the state function and the state and then is a function in one argument ready for sequential composition |
| 18:24:34 | <monochrom> | If you re-imagine the "a -> t b -> (a, t c)" part to be "(a, t b) -> (a, t c)", you can use vanilla "." for chaining. |
| 18:25:24 | <curl> | an uncurried state function |
| 18:25:34 | <curl> | fine |
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| 18:26:09 | <curl> | so then each state and state function together, with mapAccumL partially applied, all dotted together |
| 18:26:21 | <__minoru__shirae> | using this approach you can build one chain of handlers, how about linking those chains into trees? |
| 18:26:21 | <curl> | and that should be with a rewrite to an unfold |
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| 18:26:56 | <curl> | and that would be inductivly written just needing to match one dot to then work on any number in a sequence |
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| 18:27:18 | <curl> | __minoru__shirae: trees of outputs or inputs or both? |
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| 18:27:42 | <__minoru__shirae> | I mean graphs of processing steps |
| 18:27:51 | <curl> | in either case you output or have input of pairs or lists |
| 18:28:08 | <curl> | as edges to the consequent verticies |
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| 18:28:44 | <curl> | lists of outputs or inputs, not trees, sorry |
| 18:28:55 | <curl> | but that ends up like a tree |
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| 18:29:20 | <curl> | very difficult |
| 18:29:31 | <curl> | impossible to have both branching outputs and inputs |
| 18:29:40 | <curl> | makes a graph that cant be easily represented in haskell |
| 18:29:43 | <curl> | big problem |
| 18:29:51 | <curl> | no solution as yet |
| 18:29:52 | <__minoru__shirae> | and siblings just call mapAccumL on the same input independently of each other, right? |
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| 18:30:23 | <curl> | the states are kept separate yes |
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| 18:30:32 | <curl> | they just kind of sit over the nodes in the graph |
| 18:30:40 | <curl> | inputs and outputs as edges between |
| 18:31:07 | <curl> | there must be some zipping |
| 18:31:19 | <curl> | you would have to do that with type level lengths |
| 18:31:32 | <curl> | since you would be zipping up into a list not a tuple |
| 18:31:57 | <curl> | so the mapAccumL can opperate on just one list from a list of inputs |
| 18:32:22 | <curl> | many input edges in a list, each having a list to stream over |
| 18:32:38 | <curl> | so you zip them up and stream over them |
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| 18:32:54 | <curl> | but at the outputs its more complicated, since you have to unzip them and send them to the correct place |
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| 18:33:52 | <curl> | which requires representation of a graph |
| 18:34:15 | <curl> | which you cant do in GADTs like you can Trees |
| 18:34:30 | <curl> | "upwards edges" being unrepresentable |
| 18:34:45 | <curl> | only branches below so to speak |
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| 18:36:34 | <curl> | you can fan out easily though, with no recombination, no lists as inputs, so that lists of outputs are only ever acted on by unique consumers |
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| 18:37:36 | <curl> | can this be called a composition algebra? |
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| 18:38:28 | <curl> | im not sure how to compare it with pipes or conduit for that kind of graph based streaming functions |
| 18:38:44 | <curl> | but the composed mapAccumL functions seems much more natural |
| 18:39:08 | <curl> | if we ignore trying to work with branching |
| 18:39:24 | <curl> | but i guess you have to have that for the API to be complete |
| 18:39:45 | <curl> | but then have to faff around with zipping and unzipping all these argument lists over a graph somehow |
| 18:40:38 | <curl> | maybe there is a more natural way to represent this kind of branching of composed functions... |
| 18:40:48 | <curl> | like lambda syntax or something |
| 18:41:44 | <curl> | i mean, if this API didnt have branching it would just be category, with (.) |
| 18:41:59 | <curl> | category + branching seems cool |
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| 18:42:52 | <curl> | polyvariadic category? |
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| 18:43:38 | <curl> | its a shame the dots it needs are the complicated owl like structures that are so difficult to parse from pointless style |
| 18:43:51 | <curl> | :t ((.).(.)) |
| 18:43:52 | <lambdabot> | (b -> c) -> (a1 -> a2 -> b) -> a1 -> a2 -> c |
| 18:44:36 | <curl> | even fixed points of states |
| 18:44:44 | <curl> | composing them with themselves a bunch of times |
| 18:44:52 | <curl> | like an unrolled recursive function |
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| 18:45:31 | <curl> | if you can only have trees and not have self reference to make graphs then you cant get recursive reference |
| 18:46:35 | <curl> | so then haskell syntax is richer than such a tree |
| 18:47:09 | <curl> | and to represent what we need, to have recursive functions and manage the syntax of programs somehow represented over a graph |
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| 18:47:24 | <curl> | is to represent a lazy functional langauge |
| 18:47:38 | <curl> | started from fusion of states in a graph |
| 18:48:00 | <curl> | now a functional language gets states on its functions |
| 18:48:17 | <curl> | ie, variable programs |
| 18:48:34 | <curl> | thats what this graph of state functions basically represents |
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| 18:48:57 | <curl> | thinking of states pared with state functions as basically being like variable functions |
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| 18:49:01 | <curl> | functions with memory |
| 18:49:11 | <curl> | leading to functional program with memory at the functions |
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| 18:49:35 | <curl> | but trying to represent this on a graph in a GADT seems impossible |
| 18:50:39 | <curl> | ie Haskell itself cant express the structure needed for its own abstract syntax in its recursive state. it probably just evaluates all the references into a big tree |
| 18:51:01 | <curl> | and never bothers trying to have it in a grpah like thing as the recursive tree proper |
| 18:51:22 | <curl> | which means if we *could* get a proper graph thing, then it could probably make a nice layer in GHC |
| 18:51:36 | <curl> | and that then we could work with this kind of syntax tree on an actual graph |
| 18:51:51 | <curl> | when we interface with GHC's intermediate structures |
| 18:52:12 | <geekosaur> | I thought STG level was a graph |
| 18:52:17 | <curl> | not sure if its a few language extensions away from folding in on itself... |
| 18:52:32 | <curl> | maybe they do the graph thing properly, but not in haskell syntax |
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| 18:52:47 | <curl> | its not a GADT we can work with *as a graph* |
| 18:53:00 | <curl> | like a GADT is *of a tree* |
| 18:53:21 | <curl> | but if there was one, idk, maybe the STG thing would be easier to represent |
| 18:53:24 | <curl> | and work with |
| 18:54:05 | <curl> | and then that this GADT++ language extension would cause a possibly large refactoring of intermediate graph structures of haskell syntax |
| 18:54:27 | <curl> | which i guess requires the graph for its recursive nature and lazy evaluation |
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| 18:55:39 | <curl> | all it needs is some kind of way of referencing positions in the tree during their GADT construction |
| 18:56:20 | <curl> | as if they were records |
| 18:56:56 | <curl> | like as if they were so dependently typed as that their accessing could be used throughout the tree in a typesafe way, but that it was elevated atually into the language syntax |
| 18:57:36 | <curl> | lists being built from Sum types, dont get nice records |
| 18:58:47 | <curl> | sum-records could make record-lists, and these at syntax level could be used in GADTs to refer to other parts of themselves by the other records, for "closing edges" |
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| 19:00:54 | <curl> | the good thing about it being its supposed to support haskell syntax |
| 19:01:16 | <curl> | so you shuold as a result of this referencing, be able to write recursive programs properly onto the GADT syntax tree |
| 19:01:49 | <curl> | and be unable to do this in a normal GADT |
| 19:03:15 | <curl> | as a result of not being able to say while writing the GADT, "the contents thats going here is a copy of some other recursive call to another part of this structure" |
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| 19:04:37 | <curl> | eg i should be able to say that the list of branches contains only one branch, and the tree it references is *this node* |
| 19:05:06 | <curl> | at that point, by saying that, forcing the element to have infinite depth |
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| 19:06:55 | <curl> | i just thought of this sum-records thing now btw, but it kind of makes clearer how such a reference would be made (specifying "this node") |
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| 19:07:53 | <curl> | i managed to encode haskell datatypes with records as a datatype ok |
| 19:08:12 | <curl> | maybe it would be possible to implement this sum-records like that aswell |
| 19:08:25 | <curl> | sounds like too much work for me |
| 19:08:57 | <curl> | https://gist.github.com/fog-hs/19abbf2ee8cf1f9f0c39abf0772da34e |
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| 19:09:35 | <curl> | a pair ended up being like; |
| 19:09:36 | <curl> | FSum HList ('Sum_T name '[ '(name, '[a,b])]) |
| 19:09:50 | <curl> | that name is the records implementation |
| 19:10:39 | <curl> | it says its a sum of just one thing, so there is no choice, so even product types are sums of products |
| 19:11:29 | <curl> | the first name parameter to Sum_T says thats which its "pointing to" like a type level Either thing |
| 19:12:17 | <curl> | you actually need that when extending to lists of choices, otherwise you cant write things like fromLeft properly |
| 19:12:31 | <curl> | fromLeft being unsafe |
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| 19:13:07 | <curl> | ie Either *not* having a type specifying if its left or right is actually the exception because its so short that the unsafe things are allowed |
| 19:14:11 | <curl> | notice how the "product" part of; |
| 19:14:12 | <curl> | FSum HList ('Sum_T name '[ '(name, '[a,b])]) |
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| 19:14:21 | <curl> | which is just '[a.b] |
| 19:14:40 | <curl> | as the parameters to a typed list (sum of *products*) |
| 19:14:55 | <curl> | so the contents are unlabled, name only apearing on the sum type |
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| 19:16:33 | <curl> | so im saying that if i zip a list of names there too, so that instead of mimicing haskell syntax, i get records than now extend over both sum and product layers, so should go right down through the GADT, and every position should then have an index |
| 19:17:01 | <curl> | and that then this thing should be able to repreesnt the graph |
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| 19:17:45 | <curl> | which i guess it would do by having a choice to refer to parts of itslef instead of values at the records at heach sum-product layer |
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| 19:18:11 | <curl> | ie instead of defining *new* records below |
| 19:18:23 | <curl> | while writing the GADT |
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| 19:18:50 | <curl> | (which has become a deep process, instead of writing the layers separately ) |
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| 19:20:56 | <amx> | are there strict versions of && and || in a commonly used library? just so I don't ship redundant code. |
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| 19:21:33 | <curl> | i guess you get something like various levels of scope, including "top level" by having branches appearing without being used by a function that can be refered to by other parts |
| 19:21:37 | <monochrom> | I haven't seen one. But I haven't looked at many common libraries either. |
| 19:21:43 | <curl> | sry |
| 19:23:10 | <monochrom> | And I think adding your own two lines of code still beats pulling in one more library to only use two lines of it. |
| 19:23:18 | <amx> | most def |
| 19:24:37 | <curl> | what do Sum branches in programs correspond to? |
| 19:25:10 | <curl> | sometimes different code? if statements? |
| 19:25:12 | <monochrom> | Although, http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/search?terms=strict can be useful if you need more strict types and/or functions. |
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| 19:26:26 | <curl> | oh, no its even more cool, its like different branches on pattern matching and stuff |
| 19:26:52 | <curl> | different instances i guess too |
| 19:28:27 | <curl> | id really like to see some simple recursive program with pattern matching, like map, written onto this kind of GADT + referencing |
| 19:29:24 | <curl> | to see what a recursive functional program looks like in a syntax tree that is able to handle recursive references |
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| 19:32:45 | <curl> | i guess fib is the normal example... |
| 19:33:05 | <curl> | how do you write that on a graphy tree? |
| 19:33:57 | <curl> | (ie one where you can refer to any other place by name) |
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| 19:58:46 | <dgpratt> | I'm looking at trying to incorporate some flavor of direnv into a nix-based toolchain I'm setting up, but there seem to be several choices, any of them favored or disfavored by any of you folks? |
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| 20:47:16 | hackage | language-js 0.3.0 - javascript parser for es6 and es7. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/language-js-0.3.0 (diasbruno) |
| 20:47:47 | <maralorn> | Wow, either curl is having an amazing monologue in the backlog or the matrix bridge is yet again swallowing participants. |
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| 20:50:15 | <monochrom> | Their gist url betrays that they're fog again. |
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| 20:51:29 | <monochrom> | But what does "matrix bridge swallows participants" mean? Sounds very either cannibalizing or Greek mythology. |
| 20:52:03 | <monochrom> | "Kronos was the first matrix bridge" >:) |
| 20:53:52 | <maralorn> | monochrom: Ah, oh, I see. |
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| 20:55:56 | <monochrom> | "fog is co-Kronos" >:) >:) |
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| 20:56:34 | <maralorn> | monochrom: The bridge forwards messages to matrix by creating one proxy user on the matrix side per irc nick. But sometimes there is a bug where a user fails to join the matrix channel. Then all their messages don‘t make it to the matrix side. I have no clue how often this happens. But sometimes I can tell by weird monologues that look like they should be dialogues. |
| 20:57:20 | <monochrom> | Oh! Aliasing. |
| 20:57:56 | <maerwald> | Matrix is kinda awful |
| 20:58:57 | <monochrom> | Err nevermind. Lost messages. |
| 20:59:36 | <monochrom> | But it really was a monologue in the curl case. |
| 20:59:58 | <monochrom> | Anyone who want them banned, just let me know. >:) |
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| 21:17:46 | hackage | polysemy-log 0.1.0.0 - Polysemy effects for logging https://hackage.haskell.org/package/polysemy-log-0.1.0.0 (tek) |
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| 21:52:55 | <maralorn> | maerwald: Actually at this point the freenode-bridge is the weak link. Matrix itself works pretty nicely. |
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| 22:03:09 | <xerox_> | say I have a bijective mapping between a contiguous [a..b] (a<b) and a subset of Int⨯Int, can I use a pattern synonym to go between those? |
| 22:04:17 | <xerox_> | pattern Foo i <- Bar (x,y) where ... has me stuck as to where to put the function (Int,Int)->Int to get from (x,y) to i |
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| 22:06:12 | <xerox_> | whereas the continuation where Foo = g seems reasonable for the opposite Int->(Int,Int) function |
| 22:06:40 | int-e | surreptitiously drops some red pills. |
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| 22:07:04 | <xerox_> | (: |
| 22:07:14 | <monochrom> | free red pills for everyone |
| 22:07:34 | <Franciman> | do you have any black pill? |
| 22:11:03 | <juri_> | I prefer arduinos. |
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| 22:18:41 | <xerox_> | ah the answer is a view pattern: pattern Foo i <- (f -> (x,y)) where Foo = g |
| 22:18:55 | <xerox_> | err, f -> i, you get the idea |
| 22:20:19 | <dmj`> | pattern synonyms and view patterns both probably just desugar into case statements and function applications, so regular ol' case statement would work just fine |
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