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| 00:44:51 | <dgpratt> | A lot of example/sample Haskell project setups I see out there pair a library project with an executable project. I assume the principal reason for doing this is to facilitate automated/coded testing? |
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| 00:49:21 | <L29Ah> | dgpratt: it's a wrong way to define tests; there's a separate feature in cabal to define executable tests |
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| 00:50:38 | <L29Ah> | also sometimes a simple CLI over a library is useful on its own |
| 00:53:24 | <dgpratt> | I see. It's not always clear to me what is done for the purpose of exposition vs. what is considered to be standard/best practice. |
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| 01:00:41 | <d34df00d> | I want to have a mix of mutability (ST-like, for mutable vectors) and early abort semantics (Maybe-like). How my transformer stack should look like? |
| 01:00:57 | <d34df00d> | I'm staring at Control.Monad.Primitive and don't understand that. |
| 01:02:02 | <d34df00d> | Ah, I'm a dummy. I should first do runMaybeT and then do runST, I guess. |
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| 01:31:37 | <monochrom> | :) |
| 01:32:09 | <monochrom> | It goes like "MaybeT (ST s)" so yeah, runMaybeT (runST ...) |
| 01:32:40 | <monochrom> | err runST (runMaybeT ...) |
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| 01:50:58 | <zebrag> | [Hum...] I'd say the use of underscore is related to "ellipsis", probably so are variables... Anyway I think if we believe etymonline.com, an "ellipse" would "fall short" of a parabola. |
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| 01:57:23 | <zebrag> | "eleven" and "twelve" are cognate to ellipsis too. |
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| 02:12:41 | <koz_> | :t foldl' |
| 02:12:42 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t => (b -> a -> b) -> b -> t a -> b |
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| 02:19:25 | <zebrag> | [hum:] arrows are pointing downward and rightward when it's not trouble. (The other way around with string diagrams though). A cone is "over" a diagram, and a cocone "under". |
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| 02:43:14 | <bbhoss> | why does :info div show it as an infix? how can a function be infix and not infix at the same time? |
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| 02:43:41 | <bbhoss> | I get that the backticks means use it as infix, but showing it as infix in ghci info when they're not provided is interesting to me |
| 02:44:46 | <glguy> | bbhoss, it shows it because it has a custom fixity |
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| 02:46:24 | <bbhoss> | do all the infix operators work like that? it shows them in their "fixed"? form? |
| 02:46:58 | <bbhoss> | in the form that they'd look if being used as an infix? |
| 02:47:08 | <glguy> | If something has a custom fixity, then :info shows it |
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| 02:51:46 | <bbhoss> | how is it determined what functions need backticks. symbols don't need them but everything else does? |
| 02:53:29 | <mniip> | symbols are infix by default, alphanumerics are prefix by default |
| 02:53:30 | <glguy> | operator symbols are infix by default and prefix when surrounded by () |
| 02:53:43 | <glguy> | identifiers are the other way around |
| 02:53:49 | <mniip> | (symbol) makes it prefix, `alphanumeric` makes it infix |
| 02:55:15 | <bbhoss> | is there a way to make an alphanumeric function infix without needing backticks? sorry if I'm missing the obvious |
| 03:01:21 | <mniip> | no |
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| 08:33:26 | <curl> | hi, yesterday we spoke about the concept of sum-records, and emulating them as a GADT |
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| 08:34:12 | <curl> | extensible product types are sum types, and so to get eg list records we need sum-records |
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| 08:35:55 | <curl> | recursive programmes are also similarly extensible in construction, and require the same sum-record method |
| 08:36:44 | <curl> | eg branching on the basecase |
| 08:37:41 | <curl> | otherwise our programs if they were just nested function calls would be made of products |
| 08:37:52 | <curl> | and sums enter on pattern matching for example |
| 08:39:59 | <curl> | ie, the structure on which we can represent a lazy functional program must have sum-records, for the recursive accessors |
| 08:41:05 | <curl> | as a form of cycle explicating reference |
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| 08:42:57 | <curl> | one thing im not sure about is how to get scope limitation |
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| 08:43:40 | <curl> | since these records are available for anywhere in the datastructure to reference, its like being able to use different functions local scope, which is bad |
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| 08:46:35 | <curl> | what you would want is eg, being able to have everything declared "at the same level" being with shared scope, but that requires something intrinsically listlike in the program datatypes structure |
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| 08:47:28 | <curl> | scope access restrictions then seem quite a specific thing that would have a bizzare syntax that might be overboard, if this was actually going to make its way into something like GADT syntax |
| 08:48:27 | <curl> | where the need to represent cyclic structures is more general than trying to represent recursive programs which seems to need an altered syntax |
| 08:48:57 | <curl> | for scoping |
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| 08:49:35 | <curl> | which maybe isnt such an unnatural consideration when making these record references to make cycles |
| 08:52:24 | <curl> | the main result is basically that all you need is record accessors instead of values to get cycles, and if this can have scope restriction |
| 08:52:59 | <curl> | and that this needs sum-records |
| 08:53:33 | <curl> | and actually, making the whole GADT in one go instead of making it in levels is not normal haskell |
| 08:54:19 | <curl> | normally you put it together when you construct the value, rather than the GADT |
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| 08:55:22 | <curl> | the type indexing for the referencing meaning its shape is designated at decleration of the GADT, and so there is no need to not have it be constructed there too |
| 08:55:46 | <curl> | but this needs to bring with it some amount of machenery from how we construct values |
| 08:56:10 | <curl> | its not easy to say, eg, repeat one branch n times, when declaring the GADT |
| 08:56:29 | <curl> | whereas this is exactly how we would construct a value |
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| 08:58:04 | <curl> | at least with something like "where" in the GADT construction syntax |
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| 09:02:12 | <curl> | unless somehow the "referencing" was differed until the construction of values, but the point of bringing it into the GADT decleration was to have the references available there |
| 09:02:37 | <curl> | the records to any position that could be referenced to create cycles |
| 09:02:51 | <curl> | im unsure at this point |
| 09:05:40 | <curl> | i think the version with cycles created at the value construction is the version we have now, and the GADT version would be better by handling cyclic references the same as branches in a nested datatype |
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| 09:07:36 | <curl> | the main difference is that you have to have this special environment for as you assemble the layers of the nested datatypes |
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| 09:08:00 | <curl> | so that you can refer to "this" as the whole thing and access over it with the record accessors |
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| 09:09:22 | <curl> | which obviously you can do when constructing values |
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| 09:10:57 | <curl> | so then maybe the whole thing would work with a kind of souped up type synonym |
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| 09:13:14 | <curl> | if i write; type A = [Double], there are no records to access over the [], so it seems like it would need a HList or something where we could get type info about each position seperately |
| 09:13:21 | <curl> | but really what it needs are sum-records |
| 09:15:30 | <curl> | if i pretend i have these with a tuple, i could write like; type' B = (Double,Fst B,(Double,Fst (Thrd B))) |
| 09:16:27 | <curl> | i guess the records should be lowercase... |
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| 09:17:25 | <curl> | data Pair a b = Pair {fst :: a,snd :: b} |
| 09:17:47 | <curl> | type' C = Pair Double (fst C) |
| 09:18:04 | ← | jakalx parts (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ("Error from remote client") |
| 09:18:18 | <curl> | and i would need sum records to do anything fancy and branching recursive |
| 09:18:24 | <curl> | ie finite lazy |
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| 09:22:10 | <curl> | though that might be wrong, since sum types would be instantiated one way or the other, so cant actually be *accessed* over as if there was a choice of which it is |
| 09:22:41 | <curl> | ie the whole record accessor might be wrong, its just like fromLeft that is used because it knows it is Left |
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| 09:28:22 | <curl> | i guess its that the same accessor works accross a range of sum datatypes |
| 09:28:34 | <curl> | eg 4th can be used on a list of any length |
| 09:29:36 | <curl> | but then it seems strange that somehow this sum-records has ended up with something like a definition of (!!) for lists |
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| 09:31:01 | <curl> | i guess defining the poistion over an arbitrary recursive program is going to be nion impossible |
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| 09:32:21 | <curl> | so either an expanded syntax for the definition of records, or full dependent types allowing the regular implementations over the values to be used like "record accessors" |
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| 09:35:46 | <curl> | so the type of a GADT constructor could be like Constructor :: MyGADT `at` somePosition -> [a] !! 2 -> MyGADT |
| 09:37:08 | <curl> | erm, i dont think the [a] !! 2 actually works, because you dont know what that contains, but MyGADT `at` somePostion should be defined in the GADT declaration |
| 09:37:18 | <curl> | though then im not sure where `at' is defined |
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| 09:39:01 | <maralorn> | curl: Why don't you write a blog post? That seems mich more appropriate for this kind of communication. |
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| 09:46:00 | <curl> | for the feedback |
| 09:46:06 | <curl> | hopefully! |
| 09:46:24 | <curl> | im not sure the idea is ready for publication yet |
| 09:46:33 | <curl> | i was thinking i might try some test cases first |
| 09:46:55 | <curl> | but cant really implement it before working through a few ideas, some of which seem quite difficult |
| 09:47:15 | <curl> | would love the input of someone able to understand the idea |
| 09:47:58 | <curl> | before embarking on anything too ambitious while working in a total vaccum |
| 09:48:55 | <curl> | seems pointless when there are people with the expertise that could potentially save from errors at the first phase of a project |
| 09:49:47 | <curl> | i think i managed to describe the concept well enough for such consultation |
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| 09:56:46 | <curl> | it probably makes more sense as a language proposal than a blog post really, but its nowhere near at that stage yet |
| 09:56:56 | <curl> | i guess this would be the place to ask |
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| 09:59:24 | <curl> | all i really want is to be able to write :: Fst (Pair a b) -> MyGADT, instead of :: a -> MyGADT |
| 10:00:24 | <curl> | woah, i can do that already... |
| 10:00:38 | <curl> | hang on this actually might work |
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| 10:05:04 | <curl> | no, i still cant make reference to *this* object though, so even if i could say "this branch of a tree points to this other position on *another* tree" i cant ensure the nother three is this tree |
| 10:05:43 | <curl> | but i guess i dont need to... |
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| 10:15:33 | <maralorn> | curl: So for me personally following a long thought like this in IRC does not work. It’s the wrong medium. And from what I can observe I don‘t get the feeling that you are getting any meaningful feedback. |
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| 10:15:54 | <curl> | ok |
| 10:18:18 | <maralorn> | Anyways can someone please tell me that I am overlooking the great library for dealing with calendars, event recurrence, etc. that obviously everyone in the ecosystem is using and that is still maintained? |
| 10:23:28 | <siers> | how do I do (+1) for data inside newtype with Control.Lens.Wrapped? |
| 10:24:59 | <siers> | is it meant for that even? |
| 10:25:33 | <olligobber> | I managed to mess up my haskell installation |
| 10:26:11 | <siers> | ah, it's (_Wrapped %~ (+1)) |
| 10:26:16 | <olligobber> | what is meant to be in .ghc/x86_64-linux-8.10.4/environments/default ? |
| 10:27:26 | <olligobber> | well, deleting the last line of it fixed my issue |
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| 10:29:53 | <kuribas> | how do you install executables with cabal? |
| 10:30:28 | <[exa]> | `cabal install`? |
| 10:31:08 | <kuribas> | Warning: You asked to install executables, but there are no executables in |
| 10:31:08 | <kuribas> | target: yaml |
| 10:31:19 | <kuribas> | yet: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/yaml |
| 10:31:28 | <[exa]> | ah, it's got the --lib switch (or similar) |
| 10:31:32 | <kuribas> | Executables: yaml2json, json2yaml, examples |
| 10:31:41 | <kuribas> | what does that mean? |
| 10:31:49 | <[exa]> | did you disable the no-exe flag? |
| 10:32:06 | <[exa]> | (`-f -no-exe`) |
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| 10:32:56 | <kuribas> | no? |
| 10:33:58 | <kuribas> | I just did cabal install yaml |
| 10:34:09 | <kuribas> | I didn't enable or disable anything |
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| 10:36:00 | <siers> | can I define data and do something else at the same time in lambdabot? |
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| 10:36:38 | <kuribas> | [exa]: can that be overridden? |
| 10:38:12 | <kuribas> | why is that flag there anyway? |
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| 10:39:55 | <kuribas> | I mean, what is the point of having an executable in a package if it doesn't get installed anyway? |
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| 10:51:46 | <[exa]> | kuribas: yaml is usually installed as a library for just parsing yamls into many projects, 99% users will neve need the tools. Devs who need the tools are free to install them, at the cost of the compute time + storage |
| 10:52:04 | <kuribas> | [exa]: how? |
| 10:52:06 | <[exa]> | that's perhaps cleaner than unnecessarily spawning another package yaml-tools or so |
| 10:52:21 | <[exa]> | `cabal install -f -no-exe yaml` doesn't work? |
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| 10:53:00 | <kuribas> | ah it does, thanks! |
| 10:53:16 | <[exa]> | siers: by defining data, you mean defining a data type? (the other both here knows that for sure) |
| 10:53:37 | <siers> | yeah, data type |
| 10:53:39 | <[exa]> | % data SiersData = Siers Int |
| 10:53:39 | <yahb> | [exa]: |
| 10:53:45 | <[exa]> | % :t Siers 123 |
| 10:53:45 | <yahb> | [exa]: SiersData |
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| 10:54:18 | <[exa]> | as always, suggest not defining too many datatypes here :] |
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| 11:01:05 | <siers> | however I understood that my newtype is not the kind meant to be used with lens |
| 11:03:15 | <[exa]> | why not |
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| 11:03:47 | <siers> | it seems like it works for Const because Const has type parameters whereas mine is newtype X = Map .. .. |
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| 11:06:38 | <romesrf> | hey everyone, if i have a list of [Maybe Something] and i want to convert it to [Something] as long none of the elements is nothing |
| 11:06:42 | <romesrf> | how would i do it? |
| 11:07:15 | <curl> | :t catMaybe |
| 11:07:17 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 11:07:17 | <lambdabot> | • Variable not in scope: catMaybe |
| 11:07:17 | <lambdabot> | • Perhaps you meant one of these: |
| 11:07:39 | <curl> | :t catMaybes |
| 11:07:40 | <lambdabot> | [Maybe a] -> [a] |
| 11:07:57 | <curl> | oh, if *none* are Nothing |
| 11:08:23 | <romesrf> | curl: that looks nice still, i'll look into it |
| 11:08:23 | <curl> | you could check the lengths were the same from the return of catMaybes |
| 11:09:04 | <romesrf> | i think i can describe what i'm trying to do better hmm |
| 11:09:28 | <siers> | I wrote data P = forall c. (C c) => P { c :: c }, and I have an update function from C typeclass, but I can't update that field in P with the new value :/ |
| 11:10:32 | <curl> | we need the code |
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| 11:11:41 | <siers> | judging by this it might just not be implemented https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/16501 |
| 11:12:50 | <curl> | it wasnt clear you were having an issue with records |
| 11:13:08 | <siers> | I thought P is a record |
| 11:13:23 | <curl> | it says it pattern matches ok |
| 11:13:41 | <curl> | that bug you linked is something to do with using a record in an edit |
| 11:14:08 | <curl> | if we could see the code you have and the error it would be helpful |
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| 11:15:47 | <romesrf> | i have a fun typeOf :: (Expr -> Maybe Type). some patterns are resolved with typeOf (Patt exp) = do (typ <- typeOf exp) return typ. By doing this, i can work with Maybe types in the function body and if a recursive evaluation is Nothing for an expression part, it will stop evaluation (because of the definition of >>=) - and eval to Nothing. And i have this working. Now i'm trying to make something |
| 11:15:49 | <romesrf> | similar but for "typeOf (Tup list) = ..." -> If any item of the list is "Nothing" then it should evaluate to Nothing, else it should be a list of the evaluated types from each element |
| 11:16:00 | <romesrf> | i might have made this more confusing :) |
| 11:16:07 | <siers> | curl, https://github.com/siers/ppmz/commit/258ebad2e4f85e7f23e3f1e4932f3a1501b6019f |
| 11:16:53 | <curl> | oh so you hit this with lenses? |
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| 11:17:18 | <curl> | maybe they are using the record somehow with all their TH stuff |
| 11:17:36 | <siers> | the lenses are separate with L suffix, they shouldn't affect this, I think |
| 11:17:46 | <curl> | i guess that means a rewrite that uses pattern matching instead of records is then not an option |
| 11:18:06 | <curl> | could you provide a least sufficient example? |
| 11:19:11 | <curl> | i thought maybe it was from makeFieldOptics |
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| 11:22:07 | <romesrf> | Okay, i wrote a sample of what i'm trying to do (https://paste.tomsmeding.com/twchJjgx), maybe with the previous explanation it makes some more sense |
| 11:23:12 | <siers> | curl, I should be able to make a small one, yeah |
| 11:23:26 | <siers> | but it really just does seem unimplemented |
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| 11:30:54 | <siers> | http://sprunge.us/MK2zE7 |
| 11:31:09 | <siers> | with errors: http://sprunge.us/4WqGTB |
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| 11:34:39 | <haskellstudent> | I am trying to understand memory usage in Haskell. This small program allocates about 1GB of memory, as it should, but it never give back the memory to the OS. |
| 11:34:44 | <haskellstudent> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/LzgUfgvh |
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| 11:35:12 | <siers> | ooo, NumericUnderscores – didn't know |
| 11:35:16 | <siers> | ruby had those |
| 11:35:30 | <haskellstudent> | after a long time of cofusion i found out that this is normal behaviour, but it should be able to be changed with: stack run -- +RTS --disable-delayed-os-memory-return |
| 11:36:08 | <haskellstudent> | but that switch doesnt make a difference on ghc 8.10.4, memory usage displayed in the OS stays at 1GB. is there a way to make it return it? |
| 11:36:50 | <siers> | 1GB or 16GB? |
| 11:37:29 | <haskellstudent> | 1011728 kb as per ps aux, so about 1GB as it should be |
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| 11:38:23 | <haskellstudent> | but it should be garbage collected and deallocated after the print. which it is as far as i can tell, but not given back to the OS |
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| 11:44:10 | <romesrf> | i figured my problem out some other way |
| 11:44:31 | <romesrf> | my question was far from good hahah, thank you curl, catMaybes was useful :) |
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| 11:52:47 | <Uniaika> | maralorn: got your message from the 26th, thanks for the heads-up :) |
| 11:52:47 | <siers> | ski, that sprunge.us ↑ is what I came up with. I was hoping this would theoretically give me faster code without branches if the code gets specialized |
| 11:53:36 | <siers> | ski, but it seems that I'll just use a ADT and have branches. I know that it will be very guessable for the branch prediction |
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| 12:12:22 | <maerwald> | Another problem with the abstract filepath proposal I discovered: there's no way to write a sensible total IsString instance, since String can contain e.g. NUL, which is disallowed on both windows and unix. Can that instance really ignore this? |
| 12:15:13 | <Uniaika> | IsString instance is a bad thing in this case |
| 12:15:20 | <Uniaika> | (I many cases actually) |
| 12:15:35 | <Uniaika> | koz_ has a nice alternative approach with quasi-quoters for ASCII text |
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| 12:32:24 | <JusTrying> | Learning Haskell and got an assignment to do. My execution always gets stuck on this bit: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/kDIv2Ior. I have evaluated the if statement separately and it works but not when its used to update the variable |
| 12:33:25 | <mouseghost> | wah? |
| 12:33:38 | <mouseghost> | haskell variables are immutable |
| 12:34:36 | <JusTrying> | I see, so I simply cannot update the variable once assigned a value |
| 12:34:40 | <JusTrying> | whats the best way around this |
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| 12:35:04 | <L29Ah> | nonono, haskell variables are mutable |
| 12:35:08 | <mouseghost> | oh D:? |
| 12:35:10 | <mouseghost> | ma bad ;w; |
| 12:35:11 | <L29Ah> | but that's a binding, not a variable |
| 12:35:14 | <mouseghost> | oh |
| 12:36:12 | <JusTrying> | is there any particular reason that bit of code would get stuck at exeuction? |
| 12:36:22 | <JusTrying> | if i comment it out, everything else works fine |
| 12:36:31 | <L29Ah> | the reason is that you made a recursion |
| 12:36:43 | <L29Ah> | as you refered the binding itself in its definition |
| 12:37:17 | <JusTrying> | hmm, so that causes it to evaluate all over again |
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| 12:37:52 | <JusTrying> | I learned that if statments have a separate scope so the best was to update variables is by using if statments for values |
| 12:38:13 | <JusTrying> | but how do I make it so the value is not changed if the if statements is not true |
| 12:39:04 | <shad0w_> | L29Ah: did you mean, immutable ? |
| 12:39:06 | <L29Ah> | just name your bindings uniquely so you don't accidentally reference itself |
| 12:39:17 | <L29Ah> | shad0w_: no |
| 12:39:25 | <haskellstudent> | ok I finally figured out the mistery. I have to run the program with +RTS --disable-delayed-os-memory-return AND manually call performGC to get the memory back https://paste.tomsmeding.com/gvZwDLa4 |
| 12:39:33 | <L29Ah> | shad0w_: a variable in haskell is called IORef, just to confuse people :) |
| 12:40:00 | <shad0w_> | isn't IORef like a pointer ? |
| 12:40:00 | <L29Ah> | and in the language itself there are no variables |
| 12:40:30 | <JusTrying> | I will need to update variable based on if statements several times so having unique names would be a bit of a hassle |
| 12:40:35 | <JusTrying> | bindings I meant |
| 12:42:19 | <L29Ah> | JusTrying: on the other hand, if you do that, you won't have a same name for different values, so it won't confuse you |
| 12:43:26 | <L29Ah> | shad0w_: yeah |
| 12:43:53 | <L29Ah> | there's no variables that are passed by value by default |
| 12:44:05 | <JusTrying> | my assignment is to evaluate a poker hand, my current elixir implementation evaluates each case (straight, flush e.t.c) 1 by 1 and each time updating the variable |
| 12:44:08 | <JusTrying> | thats what I was trying to do |
| 12:44:15 | <shad0w_> | im sure i read somewhere haskell variables are immutable. and ghci treats them special to make it easy think they are mutable ? |
| 12:44:46 | <L29Ah> | > let a = 1 in let a = a in a |
| 12:44:48 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: <<loop>> |
| 12:45:02 | <L29Ah> | % let a = 1 in let a = a in a |
| 12:45:07 | <yahb> | L29Ah: [Timed out] |
| 12:45:17 | <L29Ah> | same in ghci |
| 12:45:58 | <hpc> | ghci is like a giant do block in that respect - when you define the same variable on multiple lines the most recent one shadows the older ones |
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| 12:58:10 | <maerwald> | Uniaika: yes, quasiquoters are a non-issue. But they don't solve the problem of user-input. |
| 12:58:39 | <maerwald> | I guess it's ok to provide a fromString that returns Maybe |
| 12:58:48 | <maerwald> | and for statically known thing refer ppl to quasiquoters |
| 12:59:14 | <maerwald> | I use them heavily myself, but they increase compile-time and break hasktags |
| 13:01:07 | <Uniaika> | I switched from hasktags some time ago |
| 13:01:18 | <maerwald> | to? |
| 13:01:18 | <Uniaika> | maerwald: ah okay, I thought the IsString instance was for user input |
| 13:01:30 | <maerwald> | it is for that and overloadedstrings |
| 13:01:36 | <Uniaika> | maerwald: I have fast-tags installed |
| 13:01:50 | <maerwald> | most ppl prefer OverloadedStrings over quasiquoters |
| 13:02:36 | <Uniaika> | maerwald: well, you need to make a choice between favouring what most people think they want, or have them use quasi-quoters and have them be safe |
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| 13:03:09 | <maerwald> | TH is a plague :) so you have the choice between that and a partial instance |
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| 13:05:27 | <maerwald> | (also, TH causes problem for HLS) |
| 13:05:41 | <maerwald> | (for cross-compiling too) |
| 13:06:18 | <maerwald> | but the worst thing is: I can never remember any of it |
| 13:07:30 | <maerwald> | and what's the point: the next GHC release may break it anyway :p |
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| 13:16:17 | <ski> | siers : hm ? |
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| 13:30:46 | <dminuoso> | Im thinking it would be nice if HLS could generate tags, that would avoid the QuasiQuote issues |
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| 13:38:54 | <Uniaika> | dminuoso: at this point it's just a matter of plugging-in the right tags generator, right? |
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| 13:54:04 | <JusTrying> | can a function be defined twice for different types of parameter. it would have the same name but the type of parameters would be different |
| 13:54:28 | <geekosaur> | not with different types, no |
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| 13:55:13 | <c_wraith> | It's really bad for type inference if a name might refer to things with different types |
| 13:56:09 | <maerwald> | classes |
| 13:56:26 | <c_wraith> | at least when using them, the types unify. |
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| 14:13:20 | <wz1000> | dminuoso: you can use hiedb for something like that, it would be quite easy to write a subcommand that generates tags databases for you: https://github.com/wz1000/HieDb |
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| 14:16:30 | <kuribas> | why does error handling in aeson suck so much? |
| 14:16:37 | <kuribas> | Left "Error in $: parsing () failed, expected Array, but encountered Object" |
| 14:17:00 | <kuribas> | in a 3453 line JSON file. |
| 14:18:15 | [exa] | .oO(jSoN iS fOr JaVaScRiPtS nOt HuMaNs) |
| 14:18:27 | <kuribas> | what does $ mean? What does () mean? |
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| 14:18:43 | <kuribas> | [exa]: tell that to the rest of the world? |
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| 14:19:15 | <kuribas> | JSON being a crappy format doesn't mean a parser should return proper errors... |
| 14:19:30 | <kuribas> | oh wait I see it... |
| 14:19:49 | <kuribas> | it's defaulting to unit ... |
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| 14:22:10 | <[exa]> | anyway the '$' seems like the jquery locator, at least from others report: https://discourse.haskell.org/t/aesonexception-error-in-system-info-key-os-not-present/1048 |
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| 14:24:02 | <[exa]> | aeson docs seem to call it "json path" |
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| 14:28:24 | <kuribas> | is that some json standard then? |
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| 14:33:15 | <kuribas> | jquery is not related to JSON, or is it? |
| 14:33:25 | <Uniaika> | nope |
| 14:33:29 | <Uniaika> | entirely different stuff |
| 14:34:13 | <Uniaika> | and yes '$' could refer to jsonpath |
| 14:34:28 | <Uniaika> | (which is very much like xmlpath, but for json) |
| 14:34:33 | <Uniaika> | https://github.com/json-path/JsonPath |
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| 14:35:47 | <edwardk> | holy crap. i managed to get rid of all the unsafeCoerces in my linear-logic package |
| 14:36:08 | <kuribas> | Uniaika: nice, so there is logic behind it :) |
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| 14:37:49 | <hpc> | edwardk: time to add them to another package :D |
| 14:39:15 | <Uniaika> | edwardk: they're never really gone you know? Just waitiing behind the corner, in another codebase, in maybe twenty years time… ;) |
| 14:41:59 | <siers> | ski, sorry, never mind :) |
| 14:42:10 | <hpc> | how do you decide where to use unsafeCoerce anyway? i can only ever seem to find a place for it in joke snippets |
| 14:43:28 | <ski> | siers : np :) |
| 14:43:49 | <ski> | edwardk : replacing them with ? |
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| 14:46:06 | <edwardk> | ski: managed to get them to all shake out, actually. |
| 14:46:22 | <ski> | so, falling out, naturally ? |
| 14:46:37 | <kuribas> | Uniaika: btw, I tested my xml parser on a big xml, and reasonably complex parser. It works like a charm, the errors are precise and clear. Definitely worth our time :) |
| 14:46:45 | <edwardk> | https://github.com/ekmett/linear-logic/blob/main/src/Linear/Logic.hs and https://github.com/ekmett/linear-logic/blob/main/src/Linear/Logic/Functor.hs used to be full of them |
| 14:46:51 | <Uniaika> | kuribas: ah, glorious!! :) |
| 14:46:56 | <Uniaika> | I'm happy for you |
| 14:47:34 | <kuribas> | Uniaika: I cannot imagine how painful debugging xml-conduit must be... |
| 14:48:06 | <ski> | (reminds me of how i managed to remove all `undefined's from some code, by replacing `ContT () M' by `ContT Void M'. using `Void' kept me straight/sane, so that i could convince myself that the original `undefined's would never have been triggered (i didn't need to use `void :: Void -> a', in this piece of code)) |
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| 14:48:18 | <edwardk> | ski: well, when working with _'s to derive the terms you need them to hack around the lack of correct usage info. so you slip in Unsafe.Linear.toLinear's a bunch and i have an unsafePar combinator that i use instead of my par constructor to build ⅋'s while I have a definition flayed open. |
| 14:48:33 | <edwardk> | But once the definition is done, I can go through and strip all that stuff out |
| 14:48:38 | <edwardk> | and get a nice safe haskelly definition |
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| 14:48:45 | <Uniaika> | kuribas: and we will probably never know! As a matter of fact, I almost entirely forgotten the details of our session together |
| 14:49:08 | <siers> | Hi! I wanted to write a data record that would have an parametric existential type which the compiler could inline and specialize typeclass instances. I wrote it like this (only with single type for now) and it might work the way I want, but the data record updates aren't implemented. Is there a different way to do this? |
| 14:49:10 | <siers> | http://sprunge.us/5Ui15a?haskell |
| 14:49:14 | <kuribas> | Uniaika: basically you told me to write unit tests, we did and then I found the error rather quickly :) |
| 14:49:35 | <Uniaika> | kuribas: ah yes, now I recall, the never-ending parsing stuff |
| 14:49:59 | <Uniaika> | siers: why do you hate yourself so much? |
| 14:50:08 | <siers> | Uniaika, :) |
| 14:50:15 | <edwardk> | but this appears to give a model of full intuitionistic linear logic, all 4 connectives with all the laws interoperating them, along all 4 of Top, Bot, 0 and 1 as distinct entities. |
| 14:50:24 | <siers> | Uniaika, tell me |
| 14:50:24 | <Uniaika> | just write the damn SPECIALISE by hand :P |
| 14:50:45 | <Uniaika> | < siers> Uniaika, tell me // nope, I'm not foraging into your psyche today :P |
| 14:51:01 | <ski> | edwardk : oh, you're doing something like Mike Shulman's approach |
| 14:52:14 | <ski> | hm |
| 14:53:28 | <mniip> | it's a little hard to say what the approach actually is |
| 14:54:02 | <mniip> | since the original paper kind of calls for a category bifibered over Hask |
| 14:54:13 | <edwardk> | ski: yeah this is shulman's approach but extended to allow me to offer a real linear logic rather than affine logic, because i have more distinctions available in the target language |
| 14:54:25 | <mniip> | but here (P+, P-) is actually represented by its P+ part |
| 14:54:40 | <mniip> | with the P+ to P- mapping being assigned by type family |
| 14:54:48 | <mniip> | which we can do because we're in an open kind |
| 14:55:02 | <edwardk> | yeah |
| 14:55:31 | <edwardk> | we have newtypes upon which to hang the types of refutations |
| 14:55:48 | <mniip> | another thought is, what if we talk about the algebra synthetically |
| 14:55:53 | <edwardk> | but unlike shulman's approach none of our connectives actually coincide exactly in terms of how positive evidence works |
| 14:56:14 | <mniip> | we model Not as (P+, P-) mapsto (P-, P+) but what if we made it a syntactical operation |
| 14:56:15 | <edwardk> | because we have fine enough distinctions in the target that With and (*) no longer have the same positive form |
| 14:56:51 | <edwardk> | i'm somewhat inclined to try to model the positive connectives as Not's of the negative connectives. |
| 14:56:52 | <edwardk> | why? |
| 14:57:01 | <mniip> | we have a bifibration Chu(Hask, 0) -> Hask x Hask^op |
| 14:57:06 | <edwardk> | i made the negative connectives polymorphic in their runtime representations ;) |
| 14:57:19 | <mniip> | syntactically that's evidenced by the modality monads/comonads |
| 14:57:21 | <edwardk> | that would let me do the entire logic unboxed. |
| 14:58:36 | <mniip> | so really instead of looking at Chu(Hask, 0) |
| 14:58:46 | <mniip> | we're looking at Hask ~ Chu(C, 0) for some C we don't talk about |
| 14:58:56 | <edwardk> | yeah |
| 14:58:57 | <mniip> | I think that's what it is at least |
| 14:59:05 | <edwardk> | that sounds right |
| 14:59:38 | <mniip> | that kind of explains why Why is so weird |
| 14:59:55 | <mniip> | because it comes from an adjunction with C which we haven't talked about |
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| 15:01:07 | <mniip> | 1616943426 [17:57:06] <edwardk> i made the negative connectives polymorphic in their runtime representations ;) |
| 15:01:11 | <mniip> | do you have an unboxed Y yet |
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| 15:01:25 | <edwardk> | ooh |
| 15:01:48 | <mniip> | just kidding you can't |
| 15:01:54 | <edwardk> | i think the pattern synonym overhead that manufactured the proof would be larger |
| 15:02:12 | <mniip> | this goes back to the unboxed Refl threada |
| 15:02:18 | <edwardk> | (# Proxy# a | Proxy# b #) |
| 15:02:20 | <ski> | unrelatedly, would any of you happen to know what coherence condition one should have, if one wanted to "lift" a free functor over another (with the same domain category) ? i was thinking we may want the forgetfuls in a pullback, and then maybe also the frees in a pushout ? and what are reasonably coherence conditions ? |
| 15:02:38 | <edwardk> | is a machine int |
| 15:02:48 | <mniip> | actually I'd love to fix the unboxed Refl story |
| 15:02:48 | <edwardk> | you were saying? |
| 15:02:55 | <mniip> | but I'm not sure how |
| 15:02:56 | ski | looks at Gurkenglas |
| 15:02:57 | <edwardk> | oh wait |
| 15:03:00 | <edwardk> | that doesn't quite work |
| 15:03:46 | <mniip> | apparently coercions are second class citizens in core |
| 15:04:01 | <mniip> | (why?) |
| 15:04:02 | <edwardk> | (# Refl# a c | Refl# b c #) -- where we need the coercion to come into scope when you match on Refl# by evil pattern synonym magic |
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| 15:04:57 | <mniip> | wait |
| 15:05:08 | <mniip> | richard's main argument was that coercions should terminate |
| 15:05:28 | <mniip> | and hence CoVars are special beasts that only refer to "evaluated" coercions |
| 15:05:40 | <mniip> | but don't we have the exact same story for unlifted bindings |
| 15:05:55 | <edwardk> | yes, my Refl# here has to be a zero width object with a rule that says when you pattern match on it ito manufacture the (~) witness in a pattern synonym out of yolo fresh air. |
| 15:05:58 | <ski> | how's `Refl#' defined ? |
| 15:06:19 | <mniip> | likely Void# |
| 15:06:26 | <mniip> | with a pattern synonym with unsafeCoerce# in it |
| 15:06:41 | <mniip> | I'd really love to be able to define Refl# as an unlifted newtype over (~) |
| 15:06:43 | <mniip> | that would be sick |
| 15:06:47 | <mniip> | but there be dragons |
| 15:06:53 | <edwardk> | newtype Refl a b = Refl (# #) -- pattern Refl# :: () => (a ~ b) => Refl# a b -- by using an evil unsafeCoerce Refl'd to manufacture the witness |
| 15:07:54 | <edwardk> | er Refl#'s for the first two in that line |
| 15:08:14 | <mniip> | I prefer calling it :~:# for consistency |
| 15:08:21 | <edwardk> | yeah |
| 15:08:22 | <mniip> | Refl# :: a :~:# a |
| 15:08:24 | <edwardk> | its :~:# |
| 15:08:57 | <edwardk> | though here i might as well just define Y# a b c as a Int# internally and build the two proofs manually rather than generalize |
| 15:09:00 | <edwardk> | to reduce overhead |
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| 15:09:35 | <mniip> | what is the rep of (# a ~ b | c ~ d #) anyway? |
| 15:09:45 | <mniip> | a register and two zero width slots? |
| 15:09:50 | <edwardk> | yeah |
| 15:09:54 | <edwardk> | one zero width |
| 15:09:58 | <mniip> | er right |
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| 15:22:02 | <edwardk> | pattern synonyms aren't updated to work with linear types yet |
| 15:22:20 | <edwardk> | so the matchers that get inserted will have the wrong types |
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| 15:25:44 | <edwardk> | oh wait, we don't care about Y being linear! |
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| 15:28:30 | <edwardk> | so close to working |
| 15:28:47 | <edwardk> | but the case analysis multiplicities get screwed, not just that Y has different counts |
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| 15:39:54 | <edwardk> | got it to work |
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| 15:43:55 | <edwardk> | https://github.com/ekmett/linear-logic/blob/main/src/Linear/Logic/Y.hs <- clearly that is the foundation upon which all logic should be built |
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| 15:44:27 | <edwardk> | note the ~~ even |
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| 15:47:54 | <ski> | what's the `~~' ? |
| 15:48:21 | <ski> | heterogenous equality ? |
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| 15:50:04 | <edwardk> | ski: yeah |
| 15:50:09 | <edwardk> | i j and k can be different kinds |
| 15:50:20 | <Uniaika> | I refuse to acknowledge the existence of this symbol if it has no entry in the Haskell Wiki |
| 15:50:26 | <Uniaika> | https://wiki.haskell.org/Keywords <- no ~~, ergo it does not exist |
| 15:50:33 | <edwardk> | its in Data.Type.Equality |
| 15:50:49 | <edwardk> | and post dates that list |
| 15:51:30 | <Uniaika> | curse, I will have to document it |
| 15:53:45 | ← | jakalx parts (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ("Error from remote client") |
| 15:53:53 | <wz1000> | Uniaika: it's not a keyword, is it? It is a legal identifier for a type operator |
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| 16:00:13 | <Uniaika> | wz1000: idk if it can be arbitrarily given to your own type operators, GHC.Types defines it with an empty class declaration (in https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-prim-0.6.1/docs/src/GHC.Types.html#~~ ) but since the comment right after it is a GHC Note, I would be inclined to say that it has a fair level of magic treatement by the compiler ;) |
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| 16:00:52 | <mniip> | ~~ can, ~ cannot |
| 16:01:29 | <mniip> | (~) is built-in syntax like (:) |
| 16:01:55 | <Uniaika> | mniip: even if it's also defined as an empty class declaration in GHC.Types? |
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| 16:01:59 | <mniip> | (~~) is a special constraint, but not actually a special identifier/syntax |
| 16:02:06 | <Uniaika> | oki doki |
| 16:02:17 | <Uniaika> | ah wait, you meant term-level (~) |
| 16:02:25 | <mniip> | I meant type level |
| 16:02:29 | <Uniaika> | oh okay |
| 16:02:52 | <mniip> | that class declaration is bogus anyway |
| 16:03:09 | <Uniaika> | I'm interested to know why :) |
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| 16:03:53 | <mniip> | that class declaration suggests that the dictionary for (a ~~ b) is an empty box |
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| 16:04:50 | <mniip> | it isn't |
| 16:05:35 | <Uniaika> | ah, tricky indeed |
| 16:05:45 | <mniip> | c.f. eq_sel and heq_sel |
| 16:05:58 | <Uniaika> | oh, int-index has had this GHC proposal open https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/pull/371 |
| 16:06:27 | <Uniaika> | mniip: I don't follow you |
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| 16:10:33 | <mniip> | ~~ has ~# as "superclass" |
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| 16:10:51 | <mniip> | i.e. the dictionary for (a ~~ b) has a "field" with (a ~# b) |
| 16:11:08 | <mniip> | this field is selected by a function called heq_sel |
| 16:11:23 | <mniip> | GHC.Types.heq_sel, I think |
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| 16:14:16 | <mniip> | (I |
| 16:14:30 | <mniip> | (I'm not sure what's preventing you from being able to look at it with :i) |
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| 16:15:29 | <Uniaika> | indeed :i doesn't show ~# as the superclass |
| 16:15:57 | <mniip> | % :i (~~) |
| 16:15:59 | <yahb> | mniip: type (~~) :: forall k0 k1. k0 -> k1 -> Constraint; class (a ~~ b) => (~~) a b; -- Defined in `GHC.Types'; infix 4 ~~ |
| 16:16:04 | <mniip> | there is a superclass |
| 16:16:08 | <wz1000> | Uniaika: type a ~~ b = (a,b) |
| 16:16:10 | <wz1000> | that works |
| 16:16:16 | <wz1000> | if you set -XTypeOperators |
| 16:16:34 | <Uniaika> | wz1000: curse. Thanks! :) |
| 16:16:36 | <mniip> | however there's some machinery that translates primitive equalities back into surface haskell |
| 16:16:38 | <mniip> | % :set -fprint-equality-relations |
| 16:16:39 | <yahb> | mniip: |
| 16:16:42 | <mniip> | % :i (~~) |
| 16:16:43 | <yahb> | mniip: type (~~) :: forall k0 k1. k0 -> k1 -> Constraint; class (a GHC.Prim.~# b) => (~~) a b; -- Defined in `GHC.Types'; infix 4 ~~ |
| 16:16:53 | <Uniaika> | Ah! there it is! |
| 16:17:01 | <Uniaika> | that's the tricky bit ;) |
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| 16:17:43 | <wz1000> | even `(~#)` is not a keywork |
| 16:17:45 | <wz1000> | keyword |
| 16:18:08 | <wz1000> | you can supply your own definition using TypeOperators and MagicHash |
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| 16:18:28 | <wz1000> | its more like primops, like unsafeCoerce# |
| 16:18:35 | <wz1000> | which is also magic, but not a keywork |
| 16:18:42 | <wz1000> | keyword, aargh |
| 16:18:47 | <Uniaika> | yeah don't worry |
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| 16:19:05 | <mniip> | % :i Coercible |
| 16:19:05 | <yahb> | mniip: {-; Coercible is a special constraint with custom solving rules.; It is not a class.; Please see section `The Coercible constraint`; of the user's guide for details.; -}; type role Coercible representational representational; type Coercible :: forall k. k -> k -> Constraint; class (a ~R# b) => Coercible a b; -- Defined in `GHC.Types' |
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| 16:19:13 | <Uniaika> | wz1000: I guess by "keyword" I also want to express that there was some fairly special treatement given by the compiler. :) |
| 16:19:18 | <mniip> | now ~R# is outright not haskell syntax |
| 16:19:19 | <mniip> | :P |
| 16:19:35 | <Uniaika> | ($) can be thought of as a keyword due to its special treatment, for instance |
| 16:19:48 | <Uniaika> | looks like a regular-ass operator but no! more magic under the hood |
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| 16:19:51 | <wz1000> | not anymore with ImpredicativeTypes I think |
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| 16:19:59 | <mniip> | still is |
| 16:20:02 | <mniip> | but uh |
| 16:20:08 | <mniip> | that's called a "wired in id" |
| 16:20:20 | <mniip> | which is very different from "syntax" |
| 16:20:21 | <Uniaika> | yes, thanks for the better terminology mniip |
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| 16:20:38 | <Uniaika> | indeed they don't appear at the same level in the compiler implementation |
| 16:20:56 | <mniip> | there's things the compiler needs to be able to refer to, and things the compiler needs to be able to uniquely identify |
| 16:21:21 | <mniip> | wired-in types, bindings, etc |
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| 16:24:53 | <wz1000> | mniip: way less special treatment anyway: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/blob/master/compiler/GHC/Tc/Gen/App.hs#L271 |
| 16:26:17 | <wz1000> | and no special treatment at all if you have -XImpredicativeTypes |
| 16:27:41 | <Uniaika> | aaand this is far outside of my domain of competence :P |
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| 16:28:52 | <mniip> | it's mailing richard hours |
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| 16:31:36 | <Uniaika> | it's also fucking sunday so I think we've earned some rest until monday >_> |
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| 16:42:00 | <edwardk> | mniip: i want to be able to pass around ~#'s myself damnit. =( |
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| 16:42:24 | <edwardk> | we need CONSTRAINT :: RuntimeRep -> Type |
| 16:42:45 | <edwardk> | less magic pls |
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| 16:43:44 | <edwardk> | oh neat, i didn't realize they turned on quicklook for sections all the time |
| 16:43:53 | <edwardk> | that could save me some code and make me actually use sections |
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| 16:45:26 | <mniip> | edwardk, such as (\case `id`) ? |
| 16:45:35 | <ski> | mniip : so what's `~#', how does it differ from `~~' ? |
| 16:46:04 | <ski> | "sections" ? |
| 16:46:08 | <mniip> | ~# is the Core-only unboxed equality constructor |
| 16:46:14 | <ski> | hm |
| 16:46:29 | <ski> | heterogenous too, i assume |
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| 16:46:40 | <mniip> | (a :: k1) ~# (b :: k2) :: TYPE (TupleRep []) |
| 16:46:41 | <mniip> | yes |
| 16:46:54 | <ski> | ok |
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| 16:47:51 | <ski> | (hm, so it's an unboxed tuple type, not a constraint ?) |
| 16:50:15 | <mniip> | type ~ constraint |
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| 16:52:31 | <ski> | % :k (~) |
| 16:52:31 | <yahb> | ski: k -> k -> Constraint |
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| 16:54:58 | <ski> | % :k (~~) |
| 16:54:58 | <yahb> | ski: k0 -> k1 -> Constraint |
| 16:55:01 | <ski> | % :k (~#) |
| 16:55:01 | <yahb> | ski: ; <interactive>:1:1: error:; Not in scope: type constructor or class `~#'; Perhaps you meant `~~' (imported from GHC.Exts) |
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| 17:35:56 | <maerwald> | does anything speak against using getFileSystemEncoding with unsafePerformIO? Specifically while doing: fromByteString :: ByteString -> FilePath |
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| 17:38:45 | <maerwald> | I'm starting to think that system calls on files should not just return the ByteString, but also the locale at the time of the call |
| 17:39:20 | <maerwald> | well, not system calls, but where haskell runs them |
| 17:39:47 | <hpc> | funny enough, getFileSystemEncoding is already defined in terms of unsafePerformIO |
| 17:40:04 | <ski> | @hoogle getFileSystemEncoding |
| 17:40:05 | <lambdabot> | GHC.IO.Encoding getFileSystemEncoding :: IO TextEncoding |
| 17:40:05 | <lambdabot> | System.Directory.Internal.Prelude getFileSystemEncoding :: IO TextEncoding |
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| 17:40:36 | <hpc> | it looks like if you never call setFileSystemEncoding, it's completely safe to unsafePerformIO |
| 17:41:02 | <[exa]> | it's just setting/getting a global variable right? |
| 17:41:13 | <[exa]> | "global" "variable" in haskell sense |
| 17:41:33 | <hpc> | internally it uses a mutable global variable |
| 17:41:34 | <hpc> | yeah |
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| 17:41:39 | <hpc> | an IORef |
| 17:41:42 | <ski> | oh, it's a process-extent `IORef', inside ? |
| 17:41:46 | <ski> | ok |
| 17:43:00 | <maerwald> | hpc: which basically means "the locale at the time the process was started" |
| 17:43:08 | <ski> | Mercury has a notion of pure,semipure, and impure predicates (and functions) (in addition to the "standard" way of doing I/O, which is threading around `io.world' uniquely through the program, similar to how Clean does it) |
| 17:43:11 | <maerwald> | is that good enough? |
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| 17:43:38 | <hpc> | worse, the locale at the time of the first time you evaluate something that executes that initialization |
| 17:43:51 | <ski> | impure ones need to be performed in the order written. semipure ones can be permuted amongst each other, but not commuted past an impure one |
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| 17:44:08 | <geekosaur> | which misses that the filesystem may have its own encoding… |
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| 17:44:23 | <geekosaur> | (or none, on POSIX) |
| 17:44:25 | <maerwald> | geekosaur: there's no such thing |
| 17:44:28 | <maerwald> | right |
| 17:44:37 | <maerwald> | so you can encode whatever, regardless of locale |
| 17:44:47 | <maerwald> | then you can bruteforce your way through it |
| 17:45:01 | <ski> | @wiki Top level mutable state |
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| 17:45:02 | <lambdabot> | https://wiki.haskell.org/Top_level_mutable_state |
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| 17:46:20 | <maerwald> | hpc: well... when using getFileSystemEncoding at the "call site" of the syscalls kinda makes more sense then |
| 17:47:04 | <maerwald> | but it returns the same thing regardless of environment unless setFileSystemEncoding is used? |
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| 17:48:42 | <hpc> | GHC.IO.Encoding.Iconv.localeEncodingName seems to be the initial value, whatever that is |
| 17:50:13 | <hpc> | looks like a foreign import, so no clue what it does |
| 17:50:22 | <hpc> | presumably whatever iconv does |
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| 17:54:24 | <maerwald> | I only see these choices: 1. assume UTF8, 2. utilize getFileSystemEncoding, 3. brute-force through encodings? |
| 17:55:43 | <maerwald> | or 4: foo :: ByteString -> Encoding -> String -- only that makes no sense on windows |
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| 17:58:44 | <edwardk> | mniip: i wonder if i could get access to ~# with template haskell reify shenanigans |
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| 18:00:41 | <edwardk> | Then Y a b c = (# a ~# c | b ~# c #) -- with a _slightly_ evil way to bring the proof into scope, etc. |
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| 18:06:03 | <mniip> | huh |
| 18:06:12 | <mniip> | ~# is actually a type and not a constraint |
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| 18:08:52 | <mniip> | % $(pure <$> tySynD (mkName "E") [] (conT $ mkNameG_tc "ghc-prim" "GHC.Prim" "~#")); |
| 18:08:52 | <yahb> | mniip: |
| 18:08:56 | <mniip> | % :k E |
| 18:08:56 | <yahb> | mniip: k0 -> k1 -> TYPE ('TupleRep '[]) |
| 18:09:05 | <mniip> | looks like you can |
| 18:10:34 | <ski> | bah, anyone happen to have a link handy to the "monad tunneling problem" post ? |
| 18:11:32 | <ski> | mniip : well, that's what i was asking about, before .. |
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| 18:13:48 | <wz1000> | duckduckgo gave me this: http://smonad.com/problems/nonlocality.php |
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| 18:13:59 | <wz1000> | which is interesting, to say the least... |
| 18:14:10 | <mniip> | oh, oh my |
| 18:14:18 | <mniip> | % :t $(varE $ mkNameG_v "ghc-prim" "GHC.Types" "eq_sel") |
| 18:14:19 | <yahb> | mniip: forall {k} {b :: k}. b GHC.Prim.~# b |
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| 18:15:51 | <mniip> | ah of course, this is the tidied type |
| 18:16:00 | <mniip> | really it's (a ~ b) => a ~# b |
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| 18:16:12 | <mniip> | contrast with |
| 18:16:15 | <mniip> | % :t $(varE $ mkNameG_v "ghc-prim" "GHC.Types" "coercible_sel") |
| 18:16:16 | <yahb> | mniip: forall {k} {a :: k} {b :: k}. Coercible a b => a ~R# b |
| 18:16:23 | <ski> | wz1000 : yea, i got that too :( |
| 18:18:00 | <ski> | mniip : so `~#' is like a heterogenous, unboxed, `:~:' ? |
| 18:18:28 | <mniip> | the distinction between them all is more intricate in Core |
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| 18:19:26 | <mniip> | but yes, ~# is heterogeneous and unboxed |
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| 18:26:32 | <ski> | mm. okay |
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| 18:28:39 | <ski> | wz1000 : hm, i wonder whether that's related to Leibniz' "Monadology" |
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| 18:29:08 | <mniip> | % $(do { k <- newName "k"; a <- newName "a"; b <- newName "b"; pure <$> newtypeD (cxt []) (mkName ":~:#") [KindedTV a (VarT k), KindedTV b (VarT k)] Nothing (normalC (mkName "Refl#") [bangType (pure $ Bang NoSourceUnpackedness NoSourceStrictness) $ conT (mkNameG_tc "ghc-prim" "GHC.Prim" "~#") `appT` varT a `appT` varT b]) [] }); |
| 18:29:08 | <yahb> | mniip: ; <interactive>:21:106: error:; * Couldn't match expected type: TyVarBndr (); with actual type: Kind -> TyVarBndr Language.Haskell.TH.Type; * Probable cause: `KindedTV' is applied to too few arguments; In the expression: KindedTV a (VarT k); In the third argument of `newtypeD', namely `[KindedTV a (VarT k), KindedTV b (VarT k)]'; In the second argument of `(<$> |
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| 18:29:21 | <mniip> | % $(do { k <- newName "k"; a <- newName "a"; b <- newName "b"; pure <$> newtypeD (cxt []) (mkName ":~:#") [KindedTV a () (VarT k), KindedTV b () (VarT k)] Nothing (normalC (mkName "Refl#") [bangType (pure $ Bang NoSourceUnpackedness NoSourceStrictness) $ conT (mkNameG_tc "ghc-prim" "GHC.Prim" "~#") `appT` varT a `appT` varT b]) [] }); |
| 18:29:21 | <yahb> | mniip: |
| 18:29:26 | <mniip> | % :i :~:# |
| 18:29:26 | <yahb> | mniip: type role (:~:#) nominal nominal; type (:~:#) :: forall k. k -> k -> TYPE ('TupleRep '[]); newtype (:~:#) a b = Refl# (a GHC.Prim.~# b); -- Defined at <interactive>:22:2 |
| 18:29:29 | <mniip> | wild |
| 18:29:38 | <mniip> | it doesn't work of course |
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| 18:32:00 | <ski> | % :k :~:# |
| 18:32:00 | <yahb> | ski: ; <interactive>:1:1: error: Operator applied to too few arguments: :~:# |
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| 18:32:06 | <ski> | % :k (:~:#) |
| 18:32:06 | <yahb> | ski: k -> k -> TYPE ('TupleRep '[]) |
| 18:32:58 | <mniip> | it would be really, really cool if you could have this as a newtype |
| 18:33:05 | <mniip> | whilst also having Refl# :: a :~:# a |
| 18:33:28 | <mniip> | unfortunately current Core machinery will die really painfully |
| 18:34:06 | <mniip> | when you try to cast <a> :: a ~# a, along N::~:# :: (:~:#) ~R# (~#) |
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| 18:46:05 | <ski> | hm, so how does `~R#' differ ? |
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| 18:48:27 | <cub3s_> | What is the state of the art with Nix for Haskell? Are people still using nixpkgs or are many people migrating to haskell.nix? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j71ZkinDeUM |
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| 18:57:38 | <mniip> | ski, ~R# is the representation coercion |
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| 19:12:34 | <ski> | hm, so i suppose it's related to `Coercible' |
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| 21:27:16 | <Exp0_N3T> | hello there! |
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| 21:41:07 | <stepcut> | I am trying to use haskell-language-server+vscode.. and I have no idea what I am doing. I'd like to use cabal to build my project.. I think somehow I have to create a tasks.json so I can use 'Run Build Task...', but then I need some sort of problemMatcher? |
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| 23:29:08 | <solvr> | Do you know what bothers me in FP. It's all about composing functions and type systems in complex trees and pipelines, but in the end, precisely 0 of that survives the process boundary, let alone the machine boundary. And we're a more interconnected and distributed world than ever. So the sunk cost in modeling elaborately in FP doesn't provide good |
| 23:29:09 | <solvr> | ROI. |
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| 23:42:01 | <Axman6> | I'm not sure I agree, what about when you use Haskell and Purescript in the browser? Yes there's serialisation to (usually) JSON, but it's cheacked on each end. if you use Servant you can generate your client code so its types align with your server. at some point, everythign has to be bytes on a wire |
| 23:42:46 | <solvr> | Axman6, you can serialize aspects of the type system, but a function pipeline, less so |
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| 23:46:37 | <wrunt> | solvr: Your argument is analogous to "The world is such a dangerous place, there's just no point wearing seat belts." |
| 23:46:56 | <wrunt> | I still wear a seat belt because I want to reduce my risk, not so I'm immortal. |
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| 23:53:27 | <wrunt> | Also, once you've made the initial investment in learning Haskell, it doesn't take that long to write programs. The "modeling elaborately" doesn't cost you much, and can actually help you finish faster and give you better guarantees that you're done. |
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