Logs on 2021-04-02 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 00:09:17 | <ja> | can i build bytestrings fast in ST? by looking at the Builder docs, it doesn't look like it |
| 00:13:17 | <ja> | or maybe i should use the cereal package. but it doesn't work with bytestring's builder, so i'd have to "build" the builder for every little piece... |
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| 02:08:21 | <dcbdan> | is there some way to get around rigid type variables? how can one provide the type signature of g in https://paste.tomsmeding.com/b17s4UG6 ? |
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| 02:10:18 | <hololeap> | dcbdan: you might be looking for ScopedTypeVariables |
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| 02:10:39 | <c_wraith> | yeah, that's the only way that makes sense |
| 02:11:09 | <hololeap> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/mjDETjku |
| 02:12:40 | <hololeap> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/8.10.4/docs/html/users_guide/glasgow_exts.html#extension-ScopedTypeVariables |
| 02:14:08 | <dcbdan> | Ah, neat. so with the forall + extension it works |
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| 02:14:48 | <c_wraith> | The reason it was failing before was that ghc treated the two type variables named a as totally separate, and it couldn't unify them because they were both required to be polymorphic |
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| 02:22:41 | <dcbdan> | ok, that's a good explanation |
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| 04:02:02 | <hololeap> | is it better to put `ghc-options: -Wall -Wcompat` in cabal.project.local, cabal.project, or the .cabal file itself? |
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| 04:03:53 | <hololeap> | i suppose cabal.project wouldn't be a good place |
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| 04:09:53 | <edwardk> | I put -Wall in the .cabal file usually |
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| 04:15:02 | <hololeap> | i was looking at the list here, and wondered if it made sense to ship all those extra warnings with the repo, or keep it local: https://medium.com/mercury-bank/enable-all-the-warnings-a0517bc081c3 |
| 04:15:18 | <hololeap> | (just in general) |
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| 04:21:33 | <monochrom> | cabal.project.local if you want it a personal setting |
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| 04:23:40 | <moet> | how can i write into a repa array? |
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| 04:34:42 | <hololeap> | moet: looks like it depends on the representation |
| 04:35:02 | <hololeap> | e.g. Data.Array.Repa.Unboxed.fromUnboxed |
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| 04:37:28 | <moet> | hololeap: I don't think that function allows me to write into a repa array, it just allows construction of an array from a shape & vector |
| 04:38:18 | <moet> | thanks |
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| 04:39:29 | <hololeap> | moet: unsafeWriteMVec ? i've never used the library fwiw |
| 04:39:35 | <hololeap> | it looks confusing |
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| 04:42:57 | <moet> | i think MVec isn't the right approach either. it seems to be a bespoke type for a single purpose, not related to the goal of mutating elements in an Array |
| 04:43:10 | <moet> | no problem; i found some people on SO saying that it's basically not supported |
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| 05:36:01 | <hololeap> | it seems strange to me that -Wprepositive-qualified-module exists |
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| 05:37:07 | <hololeap> | what makes `import M qualified` better? |
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| 05:46:12 | <remexre> | I guess module names now line up? |
| 05:46:43 | <remexre> | if I'm reading https://cdn.remexre.xyz/screenshots/a4a4a9a7a334e817a47280455ba906d8e6221c3c.png my eyes are going back and forth when reading module names |
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| 06:37:07 | <hololeap> | yeah that was the only thing i could think of. i would prefer it although adding another extension for it seems a bit overkill |
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| 06:41:42 | <erred> | fwiptables is a script to configure a firewall |
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| 07:51:34 | <arahael> | Wrong channel? |
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| 08:23:52 | <PacoV> | Hi there. I'm having trouble compiling a project (one lib, two bins) on a previously-fine-working gitlab-ci. |
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| 08:24:14 | <PacoV> | Here are the .cabal http://ix.io/2UNg and the gitlab-ci.yml http://ix.io/2UNh |
| 08:24:35 | <PacoV> | It all build fine on my machine using `cabal build`. |
| 08:24:54 | <PacoV> | But it cannot solve dependencies on the CI. |
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| 08:25:55 | <PacoV> | Here are the CI logs : http://ix.io/2UNj |
| 08:26:13 | <PacoV> | Do you have any idea what could cause this issue and how to fix it? |
| 08:26:29 | <PacoV> | The pipeline broke two or three days ago. |
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| 08:48:02 | <PacoV> | Guess I found out. |
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| 09:40:02 | <kuribas> | there is no safe index in base, no? |
| 09:40:05 | <kuribas> | :t (!!) |
| 09:40:06 | <lambdabot> | [a] -> Int -> a |
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| 09:46:47 | <Rembane> | kuribas: You can drop and then do a listToMaybe, but that's two functions and a composition. |
| 09:47:21 | <kuribas> | Rembane: now I do filter (!! 9) . filter (> 9 . length) |
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| 09:48:23 | <Rembane> | kuribas: That works too. :) |
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| 09:49:49 | <kuribas> | ah, types are so nice... |
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| 09:50:04 | <kuribas> | after working in other languages, haskell is a blessing... |
| 09:50:48 | <kuribas> | now I need ordNub... |
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| 09:56:18 | <Rembane> | I agree wholeheartedly, and the syntax is lovely. |
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| 09:58:24 | <merijn> | PacoV: Wrong GHC in your CI |
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| 09:58:40 | <merijn> | (assuming no one answered that while I was disconnected >.>) |
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| 10:04:00 | <PacoV> | merijn: Indeed. |
| 10:04:09 | <PacoV> | Looking for a way to fix this. |
| 10:04:23 | <merijn> | "update your dependencies or switch back to the old GHC"? |
| 10:04:51 | <PacoV> | I'll use the old GHC for now. |
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| 10:06:09 | <PacoV> | Ok, export GHC_VERSION is not enough. |
| 10:06:43 | <merijn> | PacoV: Basically, only of your dependencies requires "base < 4.15", but your base version is 4.15 according to the error. base is an integral part of GHC and can't be changed without changing GHC |
| 10:07:14 | <PacoV> | merijn: Yep, Hakyll requires base 4.14 at the moment. |
| 10:07:42 | <PacoV> | Just looking for the clean way of changing the ghc version while still using this docker image. |
| 10:07:46 | <PacoV> | If possible at all. |
| 10:08:03 | <merijn> | I don't use docker, so can't help you with that |
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| 10:08:38 | <romesrf> | hey |
| 10:09:54 | <PacoV> | So, there is no such an option directly in cabal. |
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| 10:10:10 | <PacoV> | I'll spin my own docker image, that'll be fine. |
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| 10:10:44 | <merijn> | PacoV: If you have multiple versions installed you can use cabal's '-w' to specify which compiler to use |
| 10:10:57 | <merijn> | By default it just takes the first GHC in your path |
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| 10:14:49 | <PacoV> | I just needed to relax and take time to read. https://hub.docker.com/_/haskell There is a ghc8 version of the docker image. |
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| 10:17:53 | <PacoV> | Welp, it works just fine. |
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| 10:34:08 | <romesrf> | can anyone help me with Parsec? I'm writing a lambda calculus parser and im trying to fix something with chainl1 but not being able to do it |
| 10:35:13 | <Rembane> | romesrf: Pastebin the smallest, non-working example and it will be easier for us to help you. :) |
| 10:35:24 | <Rembane> | romesrf: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/ <- I recommend this one |
| 10:35:36 | <romesrf> | :) |
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| 10:40:34 | <romesrf> | perhaps this is illustrative, i wrote some short comments explaining my problem, but i can explain it better if needed :) |
| 10:40:35 | <romesrf> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/babCWSGQ |
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| 10:47:01 | <romesrf> | im still very unexperienced with haskell :), the wording of the question might be a bit weird |
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| 10:49:38 | <mniip> | how do I use `alaf` with a custom newtype? |
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| 10:54:18 | <mniip> | % data D x = C x deriving stock (GHC.Generics.Generic) deriving anyclass (Wrapped) |
| 10:54:18 | <yahb> | mniip: ; <interactive>:48:73: error:; * Could not deduce (Profunctor p0) arising from the 'deriving' clause of a data type declaration; from the context: (Profunctor p, Functor f) bound by the deriving clause for `Wrapped (D x)' at <interactive>:48:73-79; The type variable `p0' is ambiguous; These potential instances exist:; instance Monad m => Profunctor (Kleisli m) -- Defined in |
| 10:54:27 | <mniip> | looks like I'm doing it wrong |
| 10:56:04 | <mniip> | seems to work with _Wrapped' = coerced |
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| 11:40:52 | <ADG1089> | Is there any tool to visualize *.prof files? |
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| 11:43:26 | <Uniaika> | ADG1089: the tears in your eyes make an exellent lens |
| 11:43:28 | <Uniaika> | :P |
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| 11:46:05 | <ADG1089> | >:-( |
| 11:46:08 | <nut> | How to pattern match on vectors? (x:x) is for list |
| 11:46:19 | <nut> | I mean x:xs |
| 11:47:05 | <ADG1089> | nut: probably not possible |
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| 12:07:06 | <siers> | I have noticed this tendency for functions to become singular, i.e. traverses/folds to move out of the top level of definition of functions... |
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| 12:16:38 | <dincio> | q |
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| 12:19:47 | <peanut_> | error: Variable not in scope: q |
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| 12:21:27 | <xsperry> | + |
| 12:21:27 | <xsperry> | + |
| 12:21:27 | <xsperry> | + |
| 12:21:27 | <xsperry> | + |
| 12:21:27 | <xsperry> | + |
| 12:21:27 | <xsperry> | + |
| 12:21:27 | <xsperry> | + |
| 12:21:28 | <xsperry> | + |
| 12:22:23 | <geekosaur> | adding a bunch of blank lines? |
| 12:22:58 | <peanut_> | error: parse error on input ‘+’ |
| 12:23:10 | <peanut_> | 🤔 |
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| 12:24:02 | <[exa]> | what an additive contribution |
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| 12:26:56 | <peanut_> | that just about sums it up |
| 12:27:06 | <ADG1089> | how can I include profiling libraries to this command: `stack ghc -- -outputdir bin -o test src/test.hs -prof -fprof-auto -isrc/util -threaded -O2 -fllvm -fwarn-tabs -Wall -Wno-type-defaults -Wno-incomplete-patterns -Wno-missing-signatures -Wno-name-shadowing -main-is Test` |
| 12:27:49 | <merijn> | ADG1089: Why use "stack ghc" rather than building with stack? |
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| 12:28:35 | <geekosaur> | it should be automatic since you specified -prof. but it won't build profiling libraries for any dependencies because you're going behind stack's back |
| 12:28:54 | <ADG1089> | stack/cabal are not suitable for my project that's why I am using ghc directly |
| 12:29:10 | <merijn> | ADG1089: Then you will have to build profiling libraries manually too |
| 12:29:12 | <ADG1089> | I tries installing using `cabal install --reinstall -p --enable-library-profiling xyz-1.2.3` |
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| 12:29:25 | <ADG1089> | yeah what steps to follow for that merijn? |
| 12:29:37 | <merijn> | ADG1089: If you have cabal 3.x that's not going to work |
| 12:29:44 | <ADG1089> | but stack wasn't able to detect those |
| 12:29:53 | <merijn> | ADG1089: No clue, because that's a massive pain, so I haven't done that in 10 years |
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| 12:31:36 | <geekosaur> | something similar but with stack install. don't need anything like --reinstall though |
| 12:31:48 | <geekosaur> | I don't know what options stack uses to specify a profiling build |
| 12:32:20 | <ADG1089> | tried using `stack build --profile` but `stack ghc` also couldn't detect those |
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| 12:33:48 | <merijn> | Because ghc just uses the global package database which will probably be empty |
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| 12:34:08 | <merijn> | cabal-install and stack maintain their own internal package databases that they selectively expose to GHC |
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| 12:34:38 | <ADG1089> | maybe i can select package-env using cabal flags |
| 12:35:17 | <merijn> | Why can't you just use cabal/stack for this? |
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| 12:35:31 | <geekosaur> | I think there's a --package option to expose specific packages |
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| 12:36:04 | <geekosaur> | don';t try to mix cabal and stack, they don't play together (they're both trying to manipulate what ghc can see and will interfere with each other) |
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| 12:37:35 | <ADG1089> | merijn: https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/7325 and also working with 100s of executables is a mess with cabal and stack |
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| 12:38:09 | <ADG1089> | a makefile is easier to build using globbing |
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| 12:38:18 | <ADG1089> | until cabal/stack start supporting this |
| 12:38:32 | <merijn> | ADG1089: As commented by fgaz that's not "not working" |
| 12:38:42 | <merijn> | The output is just slightly confusing for what it's doing |
| 12:39:04 | <ADG1089> | but it's building all executables when I only want one. |
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| 12:39:30 | <geekosaur> | you can tell both to only build one |
| 12:39:32 | <ADG1089> | and it's problematic to write out 100-200s of executables in either euler.cabal or stack.yaml |
| 12:39:44 | <merijn> | Ah, you can't install single executables, no |
| 12:39:46 | <geekosaur> | for cabal, the syntax is something like exe:foo |
| 12:39:50 | <merijn> | geekosaur: You can, but he's using install |
| 12:40:00 | <merijn> | And you can't install single components |
| 12:40:01 | <geekosaur> | cabal install exe:foo works fine |
| 12:40:07 | <merijn> | geekosaur: It does? |
| 12:40:10 | <geekosaur> | I use it |
| 12:40:13 | <ADG1089> | have attached the output it build both for me |
| 12:41:08 | <ADG1089> | s/both/all binaries/ |
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| 12:47:24 | <geekosaur> | in any case, if you're going to micromanage everything anyway, I'd recommend ditching stack and using ghcup to install ghc directly |
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| 12:48:26 | <geekosaur> | then you can micromanage how everything is built, at the price that it'll all be visible to everything and may cause conflicts, but that's the price of not using stack/cabal as designed |
| 12:49:02 | <ADG1089> | was just trying to search online how to install these profiling dependencies |
| 12:49:09 | <ADG1089> | without cabal/stack |
| 12:50:04 | <geekosaur> | runhaskell Setup.hs configure -prof -fprof-auto; runhaskell Setup.hs build; runhaskell Setup.hs install |
| 12:50:16 | <geekosaur> | (it may be Setup.lhs instead of Setup.hs) |
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| 12:50:52 | <geekosaur> | it'll still be using part of cabal but not the part that you're worried about |
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| 12:51:38 | <ADG1089> | Setup.hs for every dependency? |
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| 12:51:47 | <geekosaur> | there's also cabal v1-* commands but in that case you don't want to be using stack at all, you'll need to use ghcup to install ghc |
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| 12:54:00 | <geekosaur> | ADG1089, a (possibly custom) Setup.hs should come as part of every package, yes |
| 12:54:18 | <geekosaur> | if it doesn't then you'll have no choice but cabal in v1 mode |
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| 12:56:45 | <fgaz> | if there isn't a Setup.hs you can call a fake one by running `cabal act-as-setup` |
| 12:57:05 | <geekosaur> | there you go, then |
| 12:57:07 | <fgaz> | not sure how supported that is |
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| 12:58:18 | <geekosaur> | none of this is supported, I suspect, aside from falling back to v1-* commands |
| 12:58:29 | <geekosaur> | and these days that's barely supported |
| 12:59:06 | <maerwald> | v1 isn't supported? |
| 12:59:07 | <merijn> | It's supported in "we won't break things for now" :p |
| 12:59:18 | <merijn> | maerwald: Define supported |
| 12:59:33 | <maerwald> | I can complain about it |
| 12:59:40 | <merijn> | You can complain about anything |
| 12:59:45 | <merijn> | It's a mostly free world |
| 12:59:53 | <maerwald> | yeah, but ppl actually listening to my whining |
| 13:00:15 | <merijn> | maerwald: Well, if it's any consolation, v1 isn't significantly less supported than v2 |
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| 13:00:37 | <merijn> | maerwald: People will listen, but for anything non-trivial the answer for v1 issues will probably be "patches welcome" |
| 13:00:41 | <maerwald> | only thing that got removed were sandboxes |
| 13:00:56 | <maerwald> | v1 has to stay morally even |
| 13:01:16 | <merijn> | maerwald: Right, there's no plan to remove v1 for now. But there are also no plans to improve it |
| 13:01:32 | <maerwald> | v2 is great from a user pov, but it's also a huge hack and you may not want to interface with that for various reasons |
| 13:01:35 | <merijn> | (I mean, honestly, there aren't any real plans at all, but you get what I mean) |
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| 13:01:51 | <merijn> | maerwald: If your an OS packager, the correct interface is Setup.hs |
| 13:01:56 | <geekosaur> | that's good to know, I assumed from removal of sandboxes that v1 was next on the chopping block |
| 13:01:56 | <maerwald> | I know |
| 13:01:59 | <maerwald> | but still |
| 13:02:07 | <merijn> | geekosaur: It's on the chopping block |
| 13:02:19 | <merijn> | geekosaur: But there's no satisfactory solutions for all v1 workflows yet |
| 13:02:34 | <merijn> | geekosaur: So until there is, it'll probably limp on with minimal maintenance |
| 13:02:51 | <geekosaur> | maybe I'll bring back the v1-based xmonad install workflow, then |
| 13:02:59 | <merijn> | geekosaur: As soon as the environment workflow is polished I think it'll go |
| 13:03:05 | <geekosaur> | v2 workflow is rather klunky tbh |
| 13:03:29 | <merijn> | geekosaur: fixed environments would solve that, I think hvr has a sketched out setup for it |
| 13:03:40 | <maerwald> | if he ever comes back, yeah |
| 13:04:05 | <merijn> | there's other people working on that |
| 13:04:12 | <merijn> | intermittently, anyway |
| 13:04:17 | <maerwald> | like who? |
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| 13:05:28 | <merijn> | maerwald: There was a GSoC project to hack on Oleg's prototype I think? |
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| 13:06:09 | <maerwald> | some employers used this psychology trick on me saying "we have many ppl working on this", which equated to "you'll be the only guy working on this"... are you doing the same here? :p |
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| 13:06:55 | <merijn> | There definitely isn't many people working on this |
| 13:06:58 | <ADG1089> | I'm now just using a local package-env and installing dependencies using cabal to that. Later using ghc installed from ghcup to do anything |
| 13:07:07 | <merijn> | There aren't many people working on *anything* cabal related |
| 13:07:20 | <merijn> | Pretty sure it's just fgaz and emily atm :p |
| 13:07:52 | <maerwald> | merijn: the codebase isn't particularly something you like to spend saturday afternoon on and have a great mood |
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| 13:08:16 | <maerwald> | probably requires an expensice single malt to even start |
| 13:08:21 | <merijn> | maerwald: Sure, which is why I encourage any company to pay me so I can do it during work hours instead :p |
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| 13:08:36 | <maerwald> | too much pressure to actually make something that works |
| 13:08:39 | <maerwald> | better not get paid |
| 13:08:56 | <merijn> | maerwald: Why would you bother with non-expensive single malt ;) |
| 13:09:10 | <maerwald> | when I write Java I like to be cheap |
| 13:09:35 | <Franciman> | it is unbelieavable the amount of old technology haskell uses |
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| 13:09:47 | <Franciman> | git for starters |
| 13:09:50 | <merijn> | maerwald: My spare time hacking is reserved for things directly affecting me...like Lua addons in wow :p |
| 13:09:51 | <fgaz> | there are plans to remove v1- |
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| 13:10:01 | <merijn> | Franciman: When did git become old? >.> |
| 13:10:09 | <Franciman> | when fossil got created |
| 13:10:19 | <Franciman> | i.e. git was old the right moment it was created |
| 13:10:30 | <merijn> | Franciman: Blame github |
| 13:10:43 | <Franciman> | non dependent type theories |
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| 13:10:50 | <Franciman> | cabal file format |
| 13:10:55 | <merijn> | Franciman: dependent types are overrated imo |
| 13:10:56 | <Franciman> | but this is all legacy |
| 13:11:00 | <fgaz> | https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/cabal-devel/2020-September/010488.html <- the plans |
| 13:11:02 | <Franciman> | not haskell fault |
| 13:11:14 | <Franciman> | merijn, you are right, it is better to use the singletons library |
| 13:11:14 | <fgaz> | which may or may not be followed |
| 13:12:16 | <fgaz> | merijn: "GSoC project to hack on Oleg's prototype" wait really? did someone propose it? |
| 13:12:30 | <merijn> | fgaz: Might be faulty memory on my part |
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| 13:12:47 | <merijn> | Franciman: No, singletons is worse >.> |
| 13:13:24 | <fgaz> | merijn: if not I'd add it to the ideas page... if there was someone willing to mentor |
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| 13:15:45 | <maerwald> | we'll have linear types, dependent types and maybe worse soon enough, so all our egos are satisfied... and we'll probably switch to a simpler language at work then, but won't tell anyone ;) |
| 13:16:19 | <merijn> | maerwald: More likely, we'll just keep writing Haskell with those things disabled |
| 13:17:10 | <merijn> | Dependent Haskell is a mistake, imo. Linear Haskell I'm not entirely sure about, but I lean towards "mistake" there too |
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| 13:19:54 | <maerwald> | I don't even know what was the driving force for this... either it was an academic promoting their thesis through it or someone at facebook having a heart attack about not being able to do more crazy stuff |
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| 13:20:08 | <merijn> | Linear is Tweag, no? |
| 13:20:37 | <Uniaika> | yes |
| 13:20:58 | <Uniaika> | Academic Tweag to be more precise |
| 13:21:14 | <maerwald> | during a heart attack |
| 13:22:17 | <maerwald> | merijn: the problem is that these things propagate in APIs, so you won't be able to opt out that easily |
| 13:22:29 | <maerwald> | I mean, I still have to deal with monad transformers too |
| 13:22:34 | <merijn> | Dependent Haskell is the baby of Stephanie and Richard Eisenberg, right? |
| 13:22:44 | <merijn> | *Stephanie Weirich |
| 13:23:22 | <merijn> | maerwald: If you use things that use them, sure |
| 13:23:23 | <maerwald> | Maybe the Haskell Foundation needs more conservative voices |
| 13:23:40 | <merijn> | maerwald: Haskell Foundation doesn't control GHC development, though? |
| 13:23:54 | <merijn> | maerwald: So that seems an irrelevant remark |
| 13:23:56 | <maerwald> | not directly, but I'd say that things like these should be topics there |
| 13:24:09 | <maerwald> | it changes the language, even if it's not part of the spec |
| 13:24:24 | <maerwald> | impact on industry users needs to be considered |
| 13:24:25 | <merijn> | maerwald: That isn't in the foundation's charter, though |
| 13:24:31 | <maerwald> | that's not GHC devs job |
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| 13:24:33 | <merijn> | maerwald: And what are they gonna do? Fork GHC? |
| 13:24:58 | <maerwald> | Swing hammers, I don't know |
| 13:25:11 | <maerwald> | I'm just complaining |
| 13:25:24 | <merijn> | None of the industry users seem to mind |
| 13:25:32 | <merijn> | At least, not enough to pay for things |
| 13:25:36 | <merijn> | So screw 'em |
| 13:26:21 | <maerwald> | well, the only big industry user I know is probably more pro these changes anyway, because they're neck-deep in type-level programming |
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| 13:27:59 | <nut> | for vector package, how to choose read vs unsaferead |
| 13:28:00 | <merijn> | Haskell was started as a research language and GHC as research compiler. Your suggestion isn't really viable without forking, because there's just no way to simply go "right, you guys immediately stop hacking your academic projects into your compiler!" |
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| 13:28:18 | <merijn> | nut: You use read until you profile and know it's not fast enough :p |
| 13:28:38 | <nut> | so unsafe version are faster |
| 13:28:47 | <merijn> | nut: They skip bounds checking |
| 13:28:51 | <merijn> | So "possibly" |
| 13:28:55 | <nut> | i see |
| 13:29:03 | <merijn> | nut: At the risk of potentially segfaulting your code :p |
| 13:29:14 | <nut> | sure, it's more like c versions |
| 13:29:21 | <nut> | ok |
| 13:29:39 | <maerwald> | merijn: why don't they go fork :p |
| 13:30:04 | <merijn> | maerwald: Well, considering most contributors are working on these things people compain about... |
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| 13:30:26 | <merijn> | maerwald: The real question is: Why aren't all the complainers contributing to GHC in areas they keep complaining about? |
| 13:30:49 | <maerwald> | well, I have a good excuse... got an arrow in the knee |
| 13:31:22 | <merijn> | I'm increasingly become more aggressive of pushing the first rule of open source: patches/money or GTFO |
| 13:31:49 | <maerwald> | not everything is about patches or money ;) |
| 13:32:03 | <[exa]> | merijn: someone had this written as "fork or gtfo" |
| 13:32:15 | <merijn> | [exa]: I mean, you don't have to fork |
| 13:32:29 | <merijn> | maerwald: Well, I'm not saying either of those *guarantees* you get a say over the maintainers |
| 13:32:39 | <merijn> | maerwald: It's just that without either you definitely do *not* get a say |
| 13:32:53 | <[exa]> | merijn: it prevents people from just pushing patches to random repos. |
| 13:33:00 | <merijn> | Programmer entitlement needs to get out of here |
| 13:33:34 | <maerwald> | merijn: I recently quit a distro, because they kept telling me to send patches (which I did for quite a while), but never stopped breaking reverse dependencies. So that's a workflow (or even attitude) issue. |
| 13:33:54 | <maerwald> | so I'm generally not a fan of "patches or gtfo" :) |
| 13:35:03 | <merijn> | maerwald: My point was more "if you're not materially contributing, you don't get a say in what a project does". But, as all logical implications go, that doesn't mean you *do* get a say when you contribute (in which case, you fork or use something else) |
| 13:35:41 | <maerwald> | merijn: sure, that's one way to handle it. The other is to give a say to users, regardless of their material contribution. |
| 13:35:47 | <merijn> | maerwald: The internet is full of people demanding unpaid maintainers of open source projects "do stuff" because "my company is losing millions" and that entitlement is one of the root causes of maintainer burnout |
| 13:36:01 | <merijn> | maerwald: Right, but that decision is up to...the contributors :) |
| 13:36:05 | <maerwald> | sure |
| 13:36:27 | <maerwald> | I'm not officially complaining about GHC maintenance here :) |
| 13:36:34 | <maerwald> | I'm glad we have engaged ppl at all |
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| 13:36:46 | <maerwald> | it's just language bikeshedding |
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| 13:37:14 | <nshepperd> | you can get a say in development by either being the developer or offering sufficiently convincing arguments to bring the developers around |
| 13:37:30 | <merijn> | maerwald: We'll team up with Athas and we'll make our purely functional language. But designed for predictable low level interaction! |
| 13:37:49 | <nshepperd> | or being someone who pays the developer i suppose |
| 13:37:51 | <merijn> | nshepperd: Right, but money is usually a fairly convincing argument ;) |
| 13:38:33 | <merijn> | "why are you not supporing a 5 year old GHC?!?" is a wholly different kinda issue from "I'll pay you 10k to support a 5 year old GHC" ;) |
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| 13:39:02 | <merijn> | I have considerable more empathy/sympathy for the 2nd one :p |
| 13:39:20 | <maerwald> | nshepperd: well, an important question to ask is: What constitutes "consensus" in the sense of language proposals? Does it include the community? If so, how? |
| 13:39:57 | <maerwald> | I find it hard to figure out how consensus is reached wrt language proposals |
| 13:40:09 | <maerwald> | the reddit thread about linear types didn't look like consensus at all |
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| 13:47:38 | <nshepperd> | i dunno |
| 13:47:49 | <nshepperd> | where does consensus come in? |
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| 13:48:26 | <maerwald> | during accepting or rejecting a proposal |
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| 13:49:07 | <maerwald> | https://www.gentoo.org/glep/glep-0001.html#glep-work-flow is a good example |
| 13:49:15 | <maerwald> | of a proper proposal workflow |
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| 13:49:36 | <nshepperd> | i guess it's defined by whoever does the accepting or rejecting then |
| 13:50:10 | <maerwald> | that seems problematic |
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| 14:30:32 | <dolio> | ja: I haven't worked on bytestring-show in years, and I think it's not an idea that makes sense these days, either. |
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| 14:31:04 | <dolio> | Byte strings are byte strings, not text. |
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| 14:33:11 | <dolio> | That library was from when there was only bytestring. |
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| 14:35:47 | <BRUT> | alooha |
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| 14:39:26 | <romesrf> | i'm using Parsec and i need a way to "stop" chainl1 if it finds a reserved word. This might not make much sense, i'm still learning. I wrote a bit about my problem here: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/babCWSGQ |
| 14:39:50 | <romesrf> | ( im writing a lambda calculus parser ) |
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| 14:43:51 | <nshepperd> | romesrf: just change your parseVar to exclude reserved words? |
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| 14:46:57 | <romesrf> | nshepperd: i think it shouldn't get to the point where it's parsing a var, since this would mean it's looking for something to construct the (App e1 e2) expression |
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| 14:51:37 | <nshepperd> | well yeah that's what parseExpr does |
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| 14:53:13 | <nshepperd> | but if the first parseNonApp succeeds and the second fails, it shouldn't form any App at all, which is what you want, no? |
| 14:53:15 | <romesrf> | but parseExpr upon not finding a "space" will stop "chaining" and just return parseNonApp, correct? |
| 14:53:33 | <romesrf> | oh, yes, that's exactly what i want |
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| 14:54:06 | <romesrf> | i see, i didn't understand chainl1 would fail when the second parsing failed. i thought it wouldn't attempt it when no "space" was found |
| 14:54:12 | <romesrf> | let me try your suggestion, nshepperd :) |
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| 14:54:28 | <c_wraith> | oh, parsec. it creates so many issues with the way it handles alternation |
| 14:54:35 | <nshepperd> | I'm not sure the exact behaviour of chainl1, it might work either of those two ways, i can't remember which |
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| 14:54:59 | <nshepperd> | i find it usually more intuitive to just use some/many directly |
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| 14:55:53 | <romesrf> | nshepperd: i'm quite new to this, if you have some example of using some/many directly, please do share :) |
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| 14:56:29 | <romesrf> | c_wraith: ahah, i also read about Happy, but felt it might be a bit too much for my goals |
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| 14:56:48 | <c_wraith> | chainl1 is specifically for when there's ambiguity in the parser and you want it to bias to the left |
| 14:56:54 | <c_wraith> | some/many bias to the right |
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| 14:57:28 | <nshepperd> | eg. some (parseNonApp <* optional space) tries to parse one or more nonApps until it can't any more |
| 14:58:23 | <nshepperd> | and returns a list of items which you can then turn into a sequence of 'App's yourself |
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| 15:00:20 | <romesrf> | interesting approach! but i do want it to be left associative. although if i make the sequence myself then it's probably still doable |
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| 15:01:58 | <c_wraith> | romesrf: nah, happy is an entirely different thing. Even if that design can be very fast, I don't really like working with external code generation. But there are parsing libraries that aren't build like parsec. Parsec and family sacrifice a lot of user-friendliness for performance |
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| 15:02:24 | <romesrf> | oh, understood c_wraith :) |
| 15:04:05 | <romesrf> | nshepperd: it didn't work. i really feel like i gotta make the chain fail somewhere in a way that it allows the space to passthrough as long as the word after is reserved |
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| 15:31:34 | <romesrf> | i was able to do it |
| 15:32:04 | <romesrf> | the trick was placing "try" before the do block instead of in the middle, next to the "notFollowedBy". |
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| 15:33:01 | <romesrf> | in the end i have parseExpr = chainl1 parseNonApp $ try $ do {space; notFollowedBy $ string "then"; return App} |
| 15:33:06 | <romesrf> | thank you everyone |
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| 17:03:23 | <aveltras> | does anyone know if it's possible to pass stack arguments through haskell-language-server executable ? |
| 17:03:44 | <aveltras> | I have to run "stack build --system-ghc --compiler ghc-8.8.4" for my project |
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| 17:32:53 | <StackStackIssue> | Hello, I'm trying to solve a problem on Exercism, which makes use of Stack and Cabal for testing. In my solution, I import Data.Stack, but when running the test suite the module fails to import- I'm not sure where in the config to specify that I need this module. Could I get some help? |
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| 17:34:13 | <L29Ah> | StackStackIssue: use a common dependency set for both your solution and your test suite in your .cabal file? |
| 17:34:16 | <sclv> | in the cabal file there’s a build-depends section in the test stanza |
| 17:34:29 | <StackStackIssue> | I have added - containers > 0.6 there |
| 17:35:03 | <StackStackIssue> | I believe that was supposed to fix it |
| 17:35:32 | <StackStackIssue> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/WHAw9Srt |
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| 17:37:54 | <StackStackIssue> | All other suggestions are welcome |
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| 17:45:58 | <tomsmeding> | StackStackIssue: where do you read that containers should give you Data.Stack? |
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| 17:46:32 | <StackStackIssue> | I extrapolated from a SO post where someone failed to import Data.Set and that was the suggested solution |
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| 17:46:49 | <StackStackIssue> | I'm not familiar with modules or the ecosystem, so i wouldn't be surprised if that's the wrong package |
| 17:46:53 | <StackStackIssue> | @tomsme |
| 17:46:53 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
| 17:47:06 | <StackStackIssue> | @tomsmeding could you point me in the right direction? |
| 17:47:06 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
| 17:47:10 | <tomsmeding> | StackStackIssue: Data.Set is indeed from containers, but I can find no package that exports Data.Stack |
| 17:47:23 | <tomsmeding> | Where did you find that module name in the first place? |
| 17:47:35 | <StackStackIssue> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Stack-0.4.0/docs/Data-Stack.html |
| 17:47:51 | <StackStackIssue> | I looked up haskell Stack since I was curious to try some libraries |
| 17:47:53 | <tomsmeding> | (side note: on irc, you don't need to put @ before a name to mention them) |
| 17:48:10 | <StackStackIssue> | TIL |
| 17:48:21 | <tomsmeding> | StackStackIssue: ah, thats's the 'Stack' library, apparently |
| 17:48:28 | <tomsmeding> | Which is not 'containers' :) |
| 17:48:28 | <StackStackIssue> | So would I actually be looking at Stack-0.4.0? |
| 17:48:29 | <jumper149> | StackStackIssue: On the top left it says the package name on hackage, it's "Stack" |
| 17:48:34 | <StackStackIssue> | Yeah, there it is |
| 17:48:46 | <StackStackIssue> | I figured Data.* was a single codebase |
| 17:49:04 | <StackStackIssue> | Rather than a namespace used here and there, which it seems to be |
| 17:49:07 | <jumper149> | Data.* is just a convention, just like Control.* or System.* |
| 17:49:11 | <tomsmeding> | No, module names can be freely chosen by packages |
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| 17:49:33 | <tomsmeding> | And _are_ freely chosen by packages :p |
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| 17:50:13 | <tomsmeding> | So add 'Stack' to your build-depends list |
| 17:50:16 | <StackStackIssue> | Emphasis appreciated haha |
| 17:50:18 | <StackStackIssue> | Thank you both |
| 17:50:39 | <tomsmeding> | Good luck :) |
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| 17:53:26 | <StackStackIssue> | Thanks :) |
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| 18:00:08 | <monochrom> | This is what's wrong with not starting with plain ghci in tutorials for beginners. |
| 18:00:44 | <StackStackIssue> | I dabbled in haskell in pure ghci about half a year ago, left it alone, and came back rusty today |
| 18:00:57 | <StackStackIssue> | Not sure if that's the issue |
| 18:01:01 | <monochrom> | Start with stack or cabal, especially when extra libraries that don't come with ghc are involved, you now need to explain the package level and the module level, too. |
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| 18:01:48 | <monochrom> | More precisely, the problem with most tutorials that start with stack or cabal is that they neglect to explain "package" and "module". |
| 18:02:12 | <StackStackIssue> | I actually have a second question. I'm trying to solve the problem of determining if a string has matching brackets with a Stack (there are other approaches, but this isn't the point). My code is at https://paste.tomsmeding.com/3E2jEZAP, and it looks like my code will fail because the Stack works with an abstract type, and at one point I compare it |
| 18:02:13 | <StackStackIssue> | to a character, whichr equires it to support the char interface (IIRC). s there some way for me to specify that the stack here is a stack of chars, or otherwise work around the problem? |
| 18:02:40 | <monochrom> | Oh, I leave C++ for two weeks and it's already rusty. |
| 18:03:11 | <StackStackIssue> | Yeah 6 months is enough to make Python and Ruby confusing for me, let alone Haskell :p |
| 18:03:18 | <tomsmeding> | StackStackIssue: what's the error that you're getting? |
| 18:03:33 | <monochrom> | I left Rust for a year and it's rusty too, but Rust's got to be Rusty... |
| 18:04:04 | <StackStackIssue> | tomsmeding https://paste.tomsmeding.com/lSDWHpra |
| 18:04:09 | <tomsmeding> | StackStackIssue: just from looking at your code it seems to me like there should be parentheses around those stackPush and stackPop calls |
| 18:04:25 | <StackStackIssue> | oh right |
| 18:04:25 | <tomsmeding> | given that 'helper' seems to take two arguments :) |
| 18:04:39 | <StackStackIssue> | wasn't there some sort of syntax for avoiding brackets? |
| 18:04:48 | <StackStackIssue> | Vaguely remember chaining things with dots and $ |
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| 18:05:06 | <monochrom> | I think you just need parentheses. helper xs (stackPush stack '{') |
| 18:05:36 | <tomsmeding> | you _can_ avoid those parentheses, but especially if you're not yet fully up to date with all the syntax, please just write parentheses |
| 18:05:38 | <tomsmeding> | :) |
| 18:05:42 | <monochrom> | For example, if you're going for the square root of the sine of x, it's "sqrt (sin x)", not "sqrt sin x". |
| 18:06:00 | <StackStackIssue> | Yep that's completely fair |
| 18:06:02 | <StackStackIssue> | No rush |
| 18:06:03 | <tomsmeding> | regarding the error that you posted: stackPeek returns Maybe Char, not Char https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Stack-0.4.0/docs/Data-Stack.html#v:stackPeek |
| 18:06:25 | <tomsmeding> | you probably want to scrutinise that using a case-expression |
| 18:06:45 | <tomsmeding> | i.e. 'case stackPeek stack of ...' |
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| 18:08:28 | <StackStackIssue> | Perfect, that was my next question |
| 18:08:46 | <StackStackIssue> | We use the Maybe "wrapper" for when a function may or may not have anything to return, right? |
| 18:08:55 | <StackStackIssue> | I'm not familiar with Just/Mayve |
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| 18:09:28 | <tomsmeding> | StackStackIssue: what other language(s) do you know? |
| 18:09:49 | <tomsmeding> | (perhaps I can compare it with something) |
| 18:09:49 | <StackStackIssue> | Python/Ruby/Java/C, basics of C++ |
| 18:10:04 | <tomsmeding> | Java has Optional, I believe; C++ has std::optional since C++17 |
| 18:10:21 | <tomsmeding> | @src Maybe |
| 18:10:21 | <lambdabot> | data Maybe a = Nothing | Just a |
| 18:10:36 | <tomsmeding> | if you have a 'Maybe a', e.g. a 'Maybe Char', then it's either 'Nothing' or 'Just Char' |
| 18:11:08 | <StackStackIssue> | Right |
| 18:11:13 | <StackStackIssue> | Either we get it or we don't |
| 18:11:13 | <tomsmeding> | > case Just 123 of { Nothing -> "it was nothing" ; Just n -> "it was: " ++ show n } |
| 18:11:15 | <lambdabot> | "it was: 123" |
| 18:11:20 | <tomsmeding> | > case Nothing of { Nothing -> "it was nothing" ; Just n -> "it was: " ++ show n } |
| 18:11:21 | <lambdabot> | "it was nothing" |
| 18:11:29 | <tomsmeding> | (normally you'd write this on multiple lines instead of with the { }) |
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| 18:11:33 | <StackStackIssue> | Yep! |
| 18:12:01 | <tomsmeding> | and of course, instead of 'Just 123', you'd write e.g. a variable or a function call, something that returns a Maybe |
| 18:12:22 | <tomsmeding> | case-analysis on a literal value is not particularly useful, generally :) |
| 18:13:12 | <tomsmeding> | I believe none of the languages you named have native support for "sum types", as these are called |
| 18:13:31 | <StackStackIssue> | so here, assuming I have a Just n I'd need to unwrap the n from the Just |
| 18:13:33 | <tomsmeding> | C++ has std::variant since C++17 but that's not really native, and it's kludgey |
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| 18:13:50 | <StackStackIssue> | Interesting |
| 18:13:50 | <tomsmeding> | StackStackIssue: in the case branch for Just, you're automatically given the 'n' |
| 18:14:03 | <StackStackIssue> | Oh I see |
| 18:14:10 | <StackStackIssue> | Where can i read more on the theory? |
| 18:14:19 | <tomsmeding> | there is also 'fromJust :: Maybe a -> a', which throws an exception if it happens to be Nothing -- but that's kind of ugly and you generally don't want to use that :p |
| 18:14:25 | <StackStackIssue> | +1 |
| 18:14:33 | <tomsmeding> | 99.9% of the cases there is a case expression or something else that fits better |
| 18:14:35 | <geekosaur> | there's also |
| 18:14:37 | <geekosaur> | :t maybe |
| 18:14:38 | <lambdabot> | b -> (a -> b) -> Maybe a -> b |
| 18:14:52 | <geekosaur> | or the simpler case when there's a default value: |
| 18:14:56 | <geekosaur> | :t fromMaybe |
| 18:14:57 | <lambdabot> | a -> Maybe a -> a |
| 18:15:03 | <tomsmeding> | > maybe "nope" (\x -> "it was: " ++ show x) (Just 123) |
| 18:15:05 | <lambdabot> | "it was: 123" |
| 18:15:27 | <StackStackIssue> | what is that first b from in |
| 18:15:29 | <StackStackIssue> | :t maybe |
| 18:15:30 | <lambdabot> | b -> (a -> b) -> Maybe a -> b |
| 18:15:35 | <StackStackIssue> | for*, not from |
| 18:15:37 | <tomsmeding> | default value |
| 18:15:41 | <StackStackIssue> | Ah |
| 18:15:54 | <jumper149> | StackStackIssue: I think this explains it ok: https://wiki.haskell.org/Algebraic_data_type |
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| 18:16:05 | <jumper149> | It's pretty concise at least |
| 18:16:10 | <tomsmeding> | scrutinising a 'Maybe a', it's either Nothing (in which case you get the default value, of some type 'b' you can choose), or it's Just x (in which case the 'a -> b' maps that x to a value of the same type 'b') |
| 18:16:23 | <tomsmeding> | @src maybe |
| 18:16:23 | <lambdabot> | maybe n _ Nothing = n |
| 18:16:23 | <lambdabot> | maybe _ f (Just x) = f x |
| 18:16:33 | <StackStackIssue> | I see |
| 18:16:34 | <tomsmeding> | well that's a different way to writ it :p |
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| 18:16:39 | <StackStackIssue> | we don;t care about the default |
| 18:16:46 | <tomsmeding> | you can also write: maybe def f m = case m of { Nothing -> def ; Just x -> f x } |
| 18:16:48 | <StackStackIssue> | since we have maybe _ f (just x) |
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| 18:17:17 | <tomsmeding> | the definition in that @src uses Haskell's definition-by-cases with pattern matching |
| 18:17:25 | <StackStackIssue> | Thanks. Most of my knowledge is from OOP languages with some functional features from self-teaching and high school course, so this is all uncharted territory! |
| 18:17:35 | <tomsmeding> | the line where the pattern matches the arguments is chosen |
| 18:18:00 | <tomsmeding> | i.e. 'maybe d f Nothing' will take the first line and return 'd', whereas 'maybe d f (Just 42)' will take the second line and return 'f 42' |
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| 18:18:29 | <StackStackIssue> | Very nice |
| 18:18:34 | <tomsmeding> | % foo 1 = 42 ; foo 2 = 100 ; foo n = 0 |
| 18:18:35 | <yahb> | tomsmeding: |
| 18:18:37 | <tomsmeding> | % foo 2 |
| 18:18:37 | <yahb> | tomsmeding: 100 |
| 18:18:40 | <tomsmeding> | % foo 3 |
| 18:18:40 | <yahb> | tomsmeding: 0 |
| 18:18:48 | <tomsmeding> | (read the ;'s as newlines) |
| 18:18:53 | <StackStackIssue> | +1 |
| 18:19:15 | <tomsmeding> | same as: foo x = case x of { 1 -> 42 ; 2 -> 100 ; n -> 0 } |
| 18:19:35 | <tomsmeding> | but writing multiple definitions allows you to simulateneously pattern-match on multiple arguments |
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| 18:20:00 | <tomsmeding> | though you could do the same with a case-expression by just case'ing on both arguments in a tuple, (x, y) :) |
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| 18:20:43 | <tomsmeding> | the python zen says that there should be only one obvious way to do something; haskell doesn't subscribe to that philosophy :p |
| 18:21:19 | <StackStackIssue> | I am liking aspects of both |
| 18:21:46 | <StackStackIssue> | Beats my current highschool for loop drudgery |
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| 18:22:22 | <timCF> | Hello! Any nix language users here? Is there any sort of `case x of` expression with multiple possible clauses/patterns? Just to avoid nested `if x then y else z` |
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| 18:25:33 | <StackStackIssue> | tomsmeding does reading the syntax get noticeably easier with time? I'm having a much harder time with the language than I had expected |
| 18:26:25 | <tomsmeding> | StackStackIssue: I like haskell's syntax, but then I've been programming haskell for a few years already :p |
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| 18:27:14 | <tomsmeding> | are you talking about the syntax specifically, so the symbols necessary to write certain expressions, or are you talking about how to express certain ideas in the language? |
| 18:27:40 | <tomsmeding> | the former is /shrug/, the latter is really something you have to get used to if you've previously used only imperative languages, like the ones you named |
| 18:28:19 | <tomsmeding> | the functional way of thinking is nice for a lot of applications, not so nice for others, but it's certainly different |
| 18:28:32 | geekosaur | was thinking things like needing to write parens around instead of inside of function calls (e.g. foo (bar x) instead of foo(bar(x)) ) |
| 18:28:35 | <Clint> | en/win go #linguistics |
| 18:28:41 | Clint | sighs. |
| 18:28:43 | <geekosaur> | "oops" |
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| 18:29:52 | <tomsmeding> | ah right geekosaur that's true |
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| 18:30:16 | <tomsmeding> | if that then yes that's just getting used to it :p |
| 18:31:07 | <StackStackIssue> | Getting used to it it is |
| 18:31:58 | <monochrom> | Did you know: In Landin's papers, he diligently wrote like "f(x)(y)" for curried functions. :) |
| 18:32:16 | <Rembane> | StackStackIssue: A trick I use when GHC throws all kinds of weird errors at me is to add parentheses until I'm 100% sure that I and GHC agree what code we're looking at. Also, don't use the dollar operator. |
| 18:32:27 | <Rembane> | monochrom: That looks like Javascript or Python. :D |
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| 18:33:25 | <monochrom> | Clearly, Javascript and Python are included by his paper title "the next 700 languages" >:) |
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| 18:33:51 | <monochrom> | Or rather, this is why the paper title is that >:) |
| 18:34:16 | <Rembane> | Sweet! :) |
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| 18:36:14 | <StackStackIssue> | https://imgur.com/a/VmlVOMi |
| 18:36:15 | <StackStackIssue> | bingo |
| 18:36:17 | <StackStackIssue> | thanks everyone |
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| 18:41:54 | <infinisil> | timCF: Is this a Nix question? Because if so, you should probably ask in #nixos instead :) |
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| 18:52:20 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur: I solved it! The problematic request that crashes ircbrowse is 'GET /robots.txt' with 'If-Modified-Since:' with an empty value. Firstly the empty header value gets parsed to an empty bytestring here: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/snap-server-1.1.2.0/docs/src/Snap.Internal.Http.Server.Parser.html#splitHeader ; note that this produces a bytestring based on a null pointer: |
| 18:52:20 | <tomsmeding> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bytestring-0.10.12.0/docs/src/Data.ByteString.html#empty . Then in serveFileAs, used in ircbrowse's route for /robots.txt, parseHttpTime is used directly on the header value: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/snap-core-1.0.4.2/docs/src/Snap.Internal.Util.FileServe.html#serveFileAs -- and that gives the segfault :p |
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| 18:52:32 | <tomsmeding> | that's a bug report |
| 18:53:02 | <geekosaur> | "oops" |
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| 18:54:02 | <tomsmeding> | ;) |
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| 18:54:20 | <tomsmeding> | (that request is from some kind of strange web crawler, btw) |
| 18:54:23 | <maerwald> | How good is WSL2? I'm thinking of switching to windows |
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| 18:55:17 | <geekosaur> | spj uses it, apparently |
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| 18:56:01 | <d34df00d> | Hi! |
| 18:56:27 | <d34df00d> | Some of my functions are constrained by `Alternative f`, but I noticed I'm only using pure, empty and <|>. Is there a weaker structure I could use instead? |
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| 18:59:37 | <geekosaur> | Applicative works for pure, but empty and <|> want Alternative |
| 19:00:00 | <geekosaur> | you may be thinking of the fact that those ultimately derive from Applicative + Monoid |
| 19:00:18 | <geekosaur> | but that's just Alternative, so keep using it |
| 19:00:31 | <d34df00d> | Right, that makes sense. |
| 19:00:47 | <d34df00d> | Lack of <$> or <*> in my code made me think that I could maybe make my stuff more generic. |
| 19:00:52 | <d34df00d> | But looks like Alternative is indeed perfect. |
| 19:00:53 | <d34df00d> | Thanks! |
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| 19:49:59 | <Philonous> | Is there a variant of IntMap for the various Word types? |
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| 19:50:46 | <Philonous> | Err, I meant IntSet |
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| 19:58:37 | <ja> | does it make sense to use Control.Concurrent.Async.concurrently with pure values? |
| 19:59:03 | <hololeap> | @hackage enummapset |
| 19:59:03 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/enummapset |
| 19:59:07 | <ja> | i just call pure on them and stick them in there, but i am worried that they are actually being computed synchronously |
| 19:59:17 | <hololeap> | Philonous: i just did a quick search and found that |
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| 20:00:24 | <hololeap> | ja, i think you might be getting concurrency confused with parallelism. if you want to compute pure functions using more cores, that's parallelism |
| 20:01:09 | <ja> | hololeap: ok, so should i not use async for that? what is the easiest way to have parallelism for pure computations? |
| 20:01:15 | <hololeap> | quick, somebody plug simon marlow's book :) |
| 20:01:35 | <ja> | right, i could read that book, but i thought there would be a simple answer |
| 20:01:53 | <hololeap> | it's not especially simple, but no, Async is concurrency |
| 20:02:33 | <ja> | so i should use monad-par? |
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| 20:02:52 | <kaol> | Control.Parallel.Strategies is what I'd use for parallelism with pure values. |
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| 20:04:29 | <hololeap> | monad-par is fine too, that's the one by marlow |
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| 20:47:45 | <Philonous> | hololeap, That actually sounds dangerous, what if I try to stick a type in there that Int can't hold? |
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| 21:02:29 | <infinisil> | hololeap: I'm fairly certain concurrency/parallelism isn't as simple as impure/pure |
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| 21:04:29 | <infinisil> | In university a professor explained that parallelism is when you do operations on many cores/units to speed it up. Whereas concurrency is more about dependencies between operations, and executing them in parallel according to those deps |
| 21:05:07 | <infinisil> | And that also aligns with wikipedia's definition |
| 21:05:42 | <infinisil> | And this idea is entirely orthogonal to impure/pure |
| 21:05:49 | <monochrom> | I think hololeap knows. |
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| 21:07:11 | <maerwald> | "pure functions" vs "impure functions" is already wrong in haskell |
| 21:07:32 | <maerwald> | but we all know what was meant |
| 21:08:05 | <monochrom> | It was the question that used the "pure" wording. Maybe it was inaccurate, but it was pretty clear at the holistic level what the question meant. |
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| 21:08:35 | <maerwald> | but we tend to nitpick terminology often here, so |
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| 21:09:08 | <infinisil> | You can do both parallelism and concurrency with Async, and you can also do parallelism and concurrency with pseq |
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| 21:10:40 | <monochrom> | The irony is that the nitpickers chose the wrong wording in the first place. For example, "strict" vs "lazy". Are you kdding me? |
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| 21:11:26 | <infinisil> | Wait what's wrong with those? |
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| 21:11:49 | <monochrom> | "strict" is a denotational concern, "lazy" is an operational concern. Level mismatch. |
| 21:12:31 | <monochrom> | Do people speak like "temperature vs particle momentum"? |
| 21:13:16 | <monochrom> | Sorry, "temperature vs particle position". |
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| 21:13:49 | <maerwald> | pretty sure most ppl don't reason about denotational semantics much in non-trivial haskell programs, so these terms get blurry by lack of frequent exposure |
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| 21:15:49 | <monochrom> | I also have beef with "parallel vs concurrent" when a better wording is "parallel=concurrent vs communication=synchronization" but that's for another day. |
| 21:15:59 | <monochrom> | or rather, that's a lost cause. |
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| 21:34:18 | <hololeap> | Philonous: i'm not sure what you mean. it uses the Enum class to convert to/from Int, so it should work on any Enum including Word8/16/32. the type system will keep you from doing anything "dangerous" unless you get too fancy with the intMapToEnumMap/enumMapToIntMap functions |
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| 21:35:46 | <Philonous> | > fromEnum (maxBound @Word64) :: Int |
| 21:35:48 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 21:35:48 | <lambdabot> | Pattern syntax in expression context: maxBound@Word64 |
| 21:35:48 | <lambdabot> | Did you mean to enable TypeApplications? |
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| 21:36:05 | <Philonous> | > fromEnum (maxBound :: Word64) :: Int |
| 21:36:07 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: Enum.fromEnum{Word64}: value (18446744073709551615) is outside o... |
| 21:36:32 | <hololeap> | so you want something that works specifically with Word64 |
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| 21:37:32 | <Philonous> | Yes, but it's not even guaranteed to work with Word32 |
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| 21:38:56 | <Philonous> | (Int is only guaranteed to hold up to 2^29-1) |
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| 21:40:07 | <hololeap> | % fromEnum (maxBound :: Word32) |
| 21:40:07 | <yahb> | hololeap: 4294967295 |
| 21:40:30 | <Philonous> | Lambdabot happens to run on AMD64, so Int really is Int64. But you can't rely on that |
| 21:41:02 | <hololeap> | i mean, in theory you could create a newtype wrapper with where `fromEnum (minBound :: Word64)` = `minBound :: Int`, but ultimately you're constrained by Int's limitations |
| 21:41:12 | <monochrom> | Fortunately, the same source that says 2^29-1 for Int, it doesn't even give any guarantee about Word. For all you know, the Haskell Report doesn't even say that Word cannot be isomorphic to (). >:) |
| 21:41:57 | <Philonous> | monochrom, Well, but Word64 is guaranteed to be 64 bit, which is what I care about ;) |
| 21:42:14 | <monochrom> | What really defeats you realistically is that "fromEnum (maxBound :: Word)" also fails. |
| 21:43:13 | <monochrom> | even under the GHC guarantee that Int and Word have the same entropy. |
| 21:44:02 | <Philonous> | monochrom, Well, if Int and Word have the same size it would fail since Int has to account for the sign bit, yes. |
| 21:44:16 | <Philonous> | Which is what I expect to be the case |
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| 21:44:17 | <hololeap> | ultimately you'll have to be creating some kind of isomorphism to Int, whether it be using Enum or Hashable or whatever, unless you just want to use Map |
| 21:44:49 | <monochrom> | I would consider unordered-container's hashset. |
| 21:45:34 | <monochrom> | Then again for Int and Word etc the hash function used is the identity function, which is pessimizing for some applications. |
| 21:46:16 | <Philonous> | I would really like to exploit the fact that the values I care about are going to be very close together, which IntSet optimizes well for since it removes the high-bit prefixes. If I use a HashSet that won't work |
| 21:46:41 | <monochrom> | Or perhaps look for a raw finger tree implementation? |
| 21:46:44 | <Philonous> | I thin the answer is going to be: Use Set for now and omdify IntSet to work on Word64 later |
| 21:47:10 | <Philonous> | Wait, if the hash for Word is id that would actually work in my favour |
| 21:47:13 | <Philonous> | Thanks for that hint |
| 21:47:17 | <monochrom> | :) |
| 21:47:19 | <hololeap> | but remember, you want to do it for any architecture ;) |
| 21:47:37 | <Philonous> | Word64 is Word64 on any architecture |
| 21:48:41 | <hololeap> | if you want it to work with the whole set of Word64 values on any architecture, you're stuck with Map |
| 21:49:15 | <hololeap> | or something fancy, like an array of IntMaps or something |
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| 21:49:45 | <monochrom> | Is there an architect that has a machine word size so big it can't move? >:) |
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| 21:51:51 | <Philonous> | hololeap, Well, HashSet hashes to Ints, but worst case I get some collisions which would marginally impact performance. |
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| 21:53:13 | <hololeap> | does HashSet/HashMap use patricia trees under the hood? |
| 21:53:26 | <monochrom> | http://hackage.haskell.org/package/hashable-1.3.1.0/docs/src/Data.Hashable.Class.html#line-372 has the hash function for Word64 |
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| 21:55:00 | <monochrom> | "hash array mapped tries" |
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| 21:58:58 | <dmj`> | I'm writing a haskell guide, but it uses type signature instances to show what's going on in the proofs, and will provide equational reasoning of all instances for the laws of the typeclass, I think that will increase intuition much faster. |
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| 22:00:50 | <hololeap> | happy little tries |
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| 22:02:44 | <hololeap> | dmj`: i'd like to see it when you publish it |
| 22:05:34 | <dmj`> | hololeap: here's an example of an instance |
| 22:06:06 | <dmj`> | https://gist.github.com/dmjio/b834954af8ff98a1bf04242d8d5a5b8c |
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| 22:14:22 | <dmj`> | hololeap: unless readers can point to any variable in the instance and tell its type, they might be fooling themselves into thinking they understand it |
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| 22:27:17 | <justsomeguy> | Heh, you just gave me the idea to write a hang-man style game for type signatures. |
| 22:28:16 | <justsomeguy> | ...but I'll probably never actually write it, since I'm lazy (not the good kind) and bad at programming. |
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| 22:56:09 | <sim590> | Is there a pointfree notation equivalent of this: (\ x y -> return $ x + y) ? I struggle to formulate it. For example: (return . (+)). |
| 22:56:13 | <sim590> | Doesn't work |
| 22:57:05 | <hololeap> | sim590: `liftM2 (+)` or `liftA2 (+)` |
| 22:57:13 | <hololeap> | oh, no nvm |
| 22:58:20 | <sim590> | @pl (\ x y -> return $ x + y) |
| 22:58:20 | <lambdabot> | (return .) . (+) |
| 22:58:25 | <sim590> | hmmmm |
| 22:58:37 | <sim590> | I just found out about @pl. |
| 22:59:07 | <hololeap> | although, methinks you writing things awkwardly if you have a pure function that has a Monad constraint |
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| 23:01:10 | <sim590> | hololeap: It's complicated. |
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| 23:01:49 | <hololeap> | honestly (\x y -> return (x+y)) is quite readable and the pointfree version is overly obfuscating |
| 23:02:05 | <dcbdan> | how about: curry (return . uncurry (+)) |
| 23:02:24 | <sim590> | hololeap: yeah. I agree. I was just wondering about what I was doing wrong for making it happen. |
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| 23:03:34 | <hololeap> | the rule of thumb is, don't lift things into a Monad for as long as possible |
| 23:03:58 | <hololeap> | it just adds unnecessary constraints to functions that could be used elsewhere |
| 23:04:09 | <sim590> | hololeap: If you're curious, I have a project which implements a Left Binary Search Tree: http://ix.io/2URe and all the functions on this data type take a BSPComputer which is a function that takes two nodes and executes inside the ChronicleT monad which takes care of logging for the sake of keeping the code easier to debug when there are wrong behaviour added to the code. |
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| 23:05:43 | <sim590> | BSPcomputer is the function which computes the parent of two nodes because in this data structure, all internal nodes are computed and not set. |
| 23:05:58 | <ja> | i have a Data.Map and i call splitRoot three times to obtain 4 chunks that i operate on with monad-par, but somehow that is slower than doing it in one go |
| 23:06:26 | <ja> | the map has 5000 elements and with monad-par it takes 25 sec |
| 23:06:40 | <ja> | and without parallelization it takes 5 sec |
| 23:07:01 | <ja> | if it takes so long, surely it cant be the overhead of setting up threads that bogs it down |
| 23:07:26 | <ja> | the splitRoot should be constant time, so i really don't understand how it can take so much longer... |
| 23:08:11 | <hololeap> | ja, what's the operation? |
| 23:08:53 | <ja> | the operation is just filtering on ByteStrings inside the members, using ByteString.isInfixOf or the stringsearch package |
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| 23:10:11 | <hololeap> | well the first question is, did you compile it with --threaded and run it with `+RTS -N4` (or however many cores you have) |
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| 23:10:16 | <L29Ah> | bgamari_: have you tested the hyborg thing on ghc master? |
| 23:10:39 | <ja> | hololeap: i just use -N and not the numeral, let me look up if that is right |
| 23:10:58 | <hololeap> | yeah that uses the maximum number of cores that GHC detects |
| 23:11:13 | <monochrom> | -N without a number automagically uses your # of cores for the number. |
| 23:11:14 | <hololeap> | or the runtime, rather |
| 23:14:38 | <hololeap> | the overhead is small, and it sounds like the operation is chunky enough to work well with parallelization, so i don't know why it would slow it down so much. maybe it's a GC thing |
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| 23:17:23 | <hololeap> | you could use ekg or other profiling tools to debug it. ultimately you might want to read the book that was mentioned earlier since it explains all the details and shows examples of how to profile your application |
| 23:18:05 | <L29Ah> | ja: are you sure your map chunks are evaluated before you give them out to your workers? |
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| 23:19:36 | <ja> | L29Ah: i use Data.IntMap.Strict , but i guess that is no guarantee that the map chunks are evaluated hmmm |
| 23:19:57 | <hololeap> | that's what deepseq's for |
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| 23:20:55 | <ja> | hololeap: all right, i guess i must buy that book , thanks for the tips |
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| 23:45:08 | <bgamari_> | L29Ah, not yet |
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| 23:45:15 | <bgamari_> | L29Ah, was dealing with 9.2 things today |
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