Logs on 2021-04-03 (freenode/#haskell)

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01:47:39	<wroathe>	I've got a data type that I want to be able to contain Strings, Bytestrings, and Text, and to have functions from that data type to the output string type. I see a ToString typeclass in a package that hardly seems used. Is there a common pattern for setting this up?
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01:52:29	<wroathe>	Actually, scratch that.
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01:59:47	<wroathe>	Ah. This is just fold.
01:59:48	<wroathe>	:t fold
01:59:49	<lambdabot>	(Foldable t, Monoid m) => t m -> m
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02:23:57	hololeap	kicks mconcat
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02:35:20	<Georgia>	hey, I have the following function https://paste.tomsmeding.com/bQNEdRJ2 , could someone help me break down this list comprehension?
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02:42:50	<hololeap>	yeah that's a tricky one
02:44:06	<hololeap>	you can write it out using a known `xs` and `n` start expanding it out
02:44:26	<hololeap>	like, draw [1..10] 2 = ...
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02:51:09	<hololeap>	:t tails [1..10]
02:51:10	<lambdabot>	(Num a, Enum a) => [[a]]
02:51:14	<hololeap>	> tails [1..10]
02:51:15	<lambdabot>	[[1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10],[2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10],[3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10],[4,5,6,7,8,9...
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02:52:46	<Georgia>	Trying to run it through
02:52:52	<Georgia>	I'm confused by a few parts;
02:53:08	<hololeap>	it's taking the first item from each inner list as t0, then doing essentially a cartisian product with `tails t (n-1)` which then does a cartesian product with `tails t (n-2)`. these cartesian products are glued together with ':' forming a list of lists
02:53:09	<Georgia>	mostly this t@(t0:_) <- tails xs
02:53:29	<hololeap>	not sure i can explain it much better than that
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02:54:03	<hololeap>	s/tails t/draw t/
02:54:35	<Georgia>	what does the t@(t0:_) refer to? each of the tails outputs?
02:54:40	<Georgia>	specifically the t
02:55:37	<hololeap>	> let t@(t0:_) = [1,2,3,4]
02:55:39	<lambdabot>	<no location info>: error:
02:55:39	<lambdabot>	not an expression: ‘let t@(t0:_) = [1,2,3,4]’
02:56:10	<hololeap>	> let t@(t0:_) = [1,2,3,4] in (t, t0)
02:56:10	<hololeap>	?
02:56:11	<lambdabot>	([1,2,3,4],1)
02:56:25	<Georgia>	<- does this arrow feed in each of the elements of the tails result?
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02:57:25	<Georgia>	I'm not sure I understand how you came to the conclusion that it does a cartesian product of the two groups
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02:57:47	<hololeap>	it takes a value from the list and applies it to the variable on the left side of <- and evaluates the expression. then it does this for every other element of the list on the right side of <-
02:58:19	<Georgia>	and it does this crossed with rest <- ...
02:58:26	<Georgia>	as per t0:rest
02:58:34	<Georgia>	hence the cartesian product?
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02:59:00	<hololeap>	hm, do you understand the list monad? this might be hard to grasp without understanding that
02:59:34	<hololeap>	list comprehensions are the same as a `do` block in the list monad
02:59:39	<hololeap>	here's an example
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03:00:22	<hololeap>	> do x <- [1,2,3] ; y <- [4,5,6] ; return (x,y)
03:00:23	<lambdabot>	[(1,4),(1,5),(1,6),(2,4),(2,5),(2,6),(3,4),(3,5),(3,6)]
03:00:44	<hololeap>	and the same thing as a list comprehension
03:00:51	<hololeap>	> [(x,y) \| x <- [1,2,3], y <- [4,5,6]]
03:00:52	<lambdabot>	[(1,4),(1,5),(1,6),(2,4),(2,5),(2,6),(3,4),(3,5),(3,6)]
03:01:03	<Georgia>	I'm not very familiar with Haskell, which is why I cam here
03:01:26	<Georgia>	I see
03:02:21	<hololeap>	that function you're trying to understand is tricky because it is self-referencing
03:02:33	<Georgia>	But we get t from the tails xs call, so rest is derived from that as well?
03:02:45	<Georgia>	that and the recursive aspect are making it difficult for a beginner like myself
03:03:06	<hololeap>	i had to run it to understand how it functioned :)
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03:03:21	<hololeap>	so it might not be the best thing to start out with
03:03:39	<Georgia>	It was part of a pretty simple iterative problem
03:04:23	<Georgia>	The problem was to derive the minimum number of coins that could be used to make change given an amount and coin values
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03:04:49	<Georgia>	I tried using DP and found this solution, which is when I showed up here :p
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03:05:22	<hololeap>	what is DP?
03:05:26	<Georgia>	dynamic programming
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03:06:19	<Georgia>	when you say it's self referencing do you mean the recursion?
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03:09:02	<hololeap>	right, it calls `rest` from inside the definition of `rest`
03:09:31	<hololeap>	and it's leveraging the list monad, so it's kind of hard to grok
03:09:32	<Georgia>	did you mean draw from draw?
03:09:42	<hololeap>	sorry, yes i did mean that
03:09:45	<Georgia>	all good
03:09:52	<Georgia>	which part is "the list monad"
03:10:03	<Georgia>	I have to be honest and say I don't grok monads at all yet
03:10:59	<Georgia>	also at the base case of n = 0, we see that draw returns an empty array
03:11:12	<Georgia>	so nothing gets appended to the t0 at that point?
03:11:43	<hololeap>	t0 doesn't even get named in that case. it just returns [[]]
03:12:10	<Georgia>	Ah I meant in the case before it
03:12:18	<hololeap>	the list monad can combine elements of multiple lists and it behaves like a cartesian product
03:12:32	<Georgia>	inside of the list comprehension, we end once draw t (n-1) is called with n = 1
03:12:36	<hololeap>	for instance, earlier i gave the example of [(x,y) \| x <- [1,2,3], y <- [4,5,6]]
03:13:07	<hololeap>	but i don't have to use (x,y) there, i could use any function on x and y and it would behave the way you would expect
03:13:10	<Georgia>	but there is some `tails xs` related to it right
03:13:12	<Georgia>	mhm
03:13:52	<hololeap>	in this case, the second list is computed from `draw xs (n-1)`
03:14:50	<Georgia>	yeah
03:15:26	<hololeap>	the first list ends up being just the list itself, since it is taking the first element from each inner list of `tails`
03:15:55	<hololeap>	but it is passing the list of lists that `tails` generates to `draw` as the variable `t`
03:16:03	<Georgia>	right
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03:16:18	<hololeap>	therefore... it's confusing and i'm honestly having a bit of trouble with it
03:16:21	<hololeap>	:)
03:16:21	<Georgia>	and this keeps fragmenting out / breaking into more branches until we call draw _ 0
03:16:33	<Georgia>	at which point the empty list is returned
03:16:39	<Georgia>	or list of an empty list
03:16:50	<Georgia>	which is appended to each branch
03:16:56	<Georgia>	and we get a resulting string
03:17:06	<Georgia>	How on Earth did someone come up with this
03:17:27	<hololeap>	oh, no
03:17:27	<Georgia>	Thanks for the help
03:17:31	<Georgia>	Oh?
03:17:40	<hololeap>	t isn't the list of lists that `tails` generates
03:17:48	<Georgia>	t is an element from it
03:17:59	<Georgia>	and we call draw on each of those elements?
03:18:12	<hololeap>	right, it corresponds with the _current_ list that is currently being "pointed" to
03:18:18	<Georgia>	mhm
03:18:25	<Georgia>	so we have some branching
03:19:07	<Georgia>	for each "tail", we get the first element of the tail and then append the call to (draw tail, (n - 1))
03:20:29	<Georgia>	What I'm now trying to understand is why tails is called but only the first element is taken from it
03:21:01	<Georgia>	is that done to iterate over each element in the list??
03:21:43	<Georgia>	at the same time as calling draw on its tails, I guess
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03:30:47	<hololeap>	take `draw [1,2,3] 2` for example
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03:31:36	<hololeap>	it appends 1 to `draw [1,2,3] 1` which appends `1 : 1` to draw [1,2,3] 0` which ends up with [1,1]
03:32:13	<hololeap>	then it appends 1 to `draw [2,3] 1` which appends `1 : 2` to `draw [2,3] 0` which ends up being [1,2]
03:32:24	<hololeap>	and so on
03:33:27	<hololeap>	it starts over at `2 : draw [2,3] 1` at some point giving [2,2] and [2,3]
03:34:43	<hololeap>	finally starting over at `3 : draw [3] 1` giving the last result of [3,3]
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03:35:01	<Georgia>	I got it
03:35:06	<Georgia>	Drew it out on some paper
03:35:10	<Georgia>	thanks!
03:35:21	<hololeap>	np! like i said, tricky :)
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04:36:11	<virmaha>	Hello, I recently read few articles about functional programming and loved the ideas presented. I am primarily a c++ programmer and I was confused how to apply or think about functional logic
04:36:38	<virmaha>	in scenario like follows :
04:37:48	<virmaha>	I run a thread which pings all my classes every 1 minutes. On each ping, each class will run some logic. But at random intervals, I've to give "events" to these classes
04:37:57	<virmaha>	and the classes will respond to those events in their own way
04:38:10	<virmaha>	how to go about such dynamic scenarios? Can someone guide?
04:39:37	<sm[m]>	Probably you'd use the async package to manage your threads
04:40:04	<virmaha>	sm[m] : all my code is in c++ but I want high level ideas about formulating the logic/design
04:42:36	<sm[m]>	Your main thread forks a bunch of children ? Then loops sending one minute pings and random events to them all ?
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04:45:14	<virmaha>	currently, it holds instances of class in vector and iterates over them
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05:57:57	<hololeap>	virmaha: just because it's a different paradigm doesn't mean your program will be written automatically for you. you still have to write it.
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06:00:45	<hololeap>	if you are looking for a library that handles that exact use case, i don't know of one. there are various libraries for writing concurrent programs. from low level ones like async, to higher level ones which require some training such as the frp libraries
06:02:57	<koz_>	It's also worth noting that there isn't a One True Way to do this in Haskell-land either.
06:03:06	<koz_>	Even among FRP there's considerable diversity of opinion.
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06:12:44	<hololeap>	virmaha: you can set up the problem in types, which is higher level than what c++ allows. it would be necessary to understand the problem in greater detail in order to guide you further
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06:17:23	<hololeap>	at the most basic level, i forsee something like: `data MyLogic logic = PeriodicEvent logic \| RandomEvent (Event -> logic)` and then you program the logic when to run each branch separately
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08:18:18	<molehillish>	what's the difference between a and t as type variables?
08:18:30	<olligobber>	nothing
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08:19:22	<tomsmeding>	one is called 'a', one is called 't' :)
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09:05:47	<molehillish>	why ghci uses different names for it?
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09:06:58	<Rembane>	molehillish: Do you have an example?
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09:07:41	<Uniaika>	maerwald: your certificate has expired for https://files.hasufell.de/jule/abstract-filepath/AbstractFilePath.html
09:08:01	<maerwald>	so sad
09:08:02	<tomsmeding>	molehillish: ghc decides what type variable name to use based on heuristics. It tries to choose names that are similar to those used in the original source code, but due to collisions, or type inference, that can't always work
09:09:55	<tomsmeding>	so there is usually a reason why it chooses one type variable name over another, but that reason is usually, if not always, completely unimportant
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09:14:18	<molehillish>	this was from a haskell book
09:14:31	<molehillish>	swap (x,y) = (y,x)
09:14:43	<molehillish>	:t swap
09:14:44	<lambdabot>	(a, b) -> (b, a)
09:14:49	<molehillish>	swap :: (b, a) -> (a, b)
09:15:03	<molehillish>	then
09:15:04	<molehillish>	twice f x = f (f x)
09:15:10	<molehillish>	:t twice
09:15:11	<lambdabot>	error: Variable not in scope: twice
09:15:20	<tomsmeding>	> twice f x = f (f x)
09:15:21	<molehillish>	twice :: (t -> t) -> t -> t
09:15:22	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:11: error: <hint>:1:11: error: parse error on input ‘=’
09:15:23	<tomsmeding>	:t twice
09:15:24	<lambdabot>	error: Variable not in scope: twice
09:15:33	<tomsmeding>	@def twice f x = f (f x)
09:15:34	<lambdabot>	Defined.
09:15:34	<tomsmeding>	:t twice
09:15:35	<lambdabot>	(t -> t) -> t -> t
09:15:52	<tomsmeding>	yeah that choice is completely arbitrary
09:15:52	<Uniaika>	maerwald: I'm going to send you an email with my feedback on AbstractFilePath
09:16:04	<maerwald>	cool
09:16:09	<tomsmeding>	:t (\(x,y) -> (y,x), \f x -> f (f x))
09:16:10	<lambdabot>	((b, a) -> (a, b), (t -> t) -> t -> t)
09:16:24	<tomsmeding>	molehillish: makes no difference whatsoever
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09:17:10	<molehillish>	but I'm wondering where in ghci does it decide "oh, Imma use t for that one"
09:17:32	<molehillish>	sorry, I know it's a trivial question
09:20:21	<molehillish>	double x = 2*x
09:20:25	<molehillish>	double 3
09:20:34	<molehillish>	:t double
09:20:35	<lambdabot>	Double -> Doc
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09:27:41	<Uniaika>	maerwald: email sent!
09:27:47	<Uniaika>	I picked the address on your GH profile
09:28:53	maerwald	looks around frantically
09:29:04	<Uniaika>	:-D
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09:29:39	<Uniaika>	alright, time to remove "replying to maerwald" from my TODO list
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10:13:21	<tomsmeding>	:i double
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10:13:39	<tomsmeding>	where even does lambdabot get that Doc function from
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10:14:22	<tomsmeding>	template-haskell presumably
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10:47:47	<kaol>	:t sum . (toList <=< toList <=< toList <=< toList) -- Just something I wrote in my code. A few Foldables.
10:47:48	<lambdabot>	error:
10:47:48	<lambdabot>	Ambiguous occurrence ‘toList’
10:47:48	<lambdabot>	It could refer to
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11:39:14	<L29Ah>	is there a good alternative to the dead hayoo?
11:39:39	<L29Ah>	apparently hoogle sucks these days as it only searches through stackage
11:40:45	<L29Ah>	and stackage doesn't care about packages that are on hackage, compatible with the snapshot, but the maintainer didn't complete the github ritual to get the package in, even though hackage has all the info stackage asks the maintainer to provide
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11:48:51	<maerwald>	it's a "curated" package set after all
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11:53:37	<L29Ah>	i hereby permit stackage to curate their set w/o harrassing package maintainers with github BDSM
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12:00:21	<int-e>	:t toList
12:00:22	<lambdabot>	Foldable t => t a -> [a]
12:01:49	<int-e>	:t GHC.Exts.toList
12:01:50	<lambdabot>	GHC.Exts.IsList l => l -> [GHC.Exts.Item l]
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12:03:23	<int-e>	(those two clashed before)
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12:04:24	<int-e>	Oh that "GHC.Exts" is a white lie, the actual import is import qualified Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Trusted as GHC.Exts (Constraint, IsList (..), IsString (..)), and the imported module re-exports those from GHC.Exts. GHC.Exts can't be imported safely.
12:05:29	<kaol>	I just found it amusing what my function ended up being like. I dread the thought of writing this in some other less capable language. Luckily I don't need to.
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12:18:21	<mniip>	% :browse GHC.Exts
12:18:24	<yahb>	mniip: type IsList :: * -> Constraint; class IsList l where; type Item :: * -> ; type family Item l; fromList :: [Item l] -> l; fromListN :: Int -> [Item l] -> l; GHC.Exts.toList :: l -> [Item l]; {-# MINIMAL fromList, toList #-}; type SpecConstrAnnotation :: ; data SpecConstrAnnotation = NoSpecConstr \| ForceSpecConstr; atomicModifyMutVar# :: MutVar# s a -> (a -> b) -> State# s -> (# State# s, c #); g
12:18:28	<mniip>	:P
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13:17:02	<zebrag>	I stumbled on Bartosz Milewski Freyd's Adjoint Functor Theorem page: https://bartoszmilewski.com/2020/07/22/freyds-adjoint-functor-theorem/, LaTeX diagrams are breathtaking! Does anyone know what specific tools he has been using to create them?
13:17:08	<zebrag>	https://bartoszmilewski.files.wordpress.com/2020/07/fig5.png
13:17:30	<zebrag>	Isn't that amazing.
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13:20:05	<steerio>	hello, does anyone know of any way to restrict stack to ipv4 when downloading?
13:20:26	<steerio>	hoping there's some undocumented env variable or anything
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13:21:02	<hpc>	i expect it uses ipv6 when it gets an AAAA record for wherever it's downloading from
13:21:37	<steerio>	_or_ alternatively where to put a downloaded ghci tarball where stack finds it
13:22:37	<steerio>	hpc: my router advertises v6, but there's no connectivity. chromium is smart to realize that, but stack will just try v6 and timeout
13:22:51	<steerio>	s/ghci/ghc/
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13:23:46	<steerio>	it took me a while to figure out the problem. I can download the file alright in a browser, but can't get stack to do the same for the above reasons.
13:24:24	<steerio>	maybe a squid proxy is the "quick" solution
13:25:01	<steerio>	I can't trick it into v4 with a hosts file entry
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13:32:37	<perdent1>	Hi I have a crypto challenge for you all, let me know what you think of it and if you can solve it ! Good luck The more the merrier, right? We decided to mash two of the best cryptosytems together for the best product. Our new encryption scheme is up and running and this time it is unbreakable! To prove that, we have also released its source code and a test center where you can test it out! host: 139.59.178.146:31817 (flag is located on the server) ht
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13:34:34	<steerio>	perdent1: your message was clipped, try splitting it up to multple ones. or to put your message on a web page and only share the link.
13:35:00	<perdent1>	Hi I have a crypto challenge for you all, let me know what you think of it and if you can solve it ! Good luck The more the merrier, right? We decided to mash two of the best cryptosytems together for the best product.
13:35:01	<perdent1>	Our new encryption scheme is up and running and this time it is unbreakable! To prove that, we have also released its source code and a test center where you can test it out! host: 139.59.178.146:31817 (flag is located on the server) https://gofile.io/d/mT3OLh
13:35:09	<perdent1>	steerio: better?
13:35:22	<steerio>	yep, now we see the URL :)
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13:36:22	<Lycurgus>	he got kicked in a few seconds out of #lisp
13:36:40	<Lycurgus>	fine demo of cultural differences
13:37:15	<perdent1>	Haha
13:37:33	<Lycurgus>	or moreso the channel igess, since #lisp has less than half the user and it was a very prestigious one that did the kick
13:37:51	<Lycurgus>	like edwardk did here but apples and oranges
13:38:16	<steerio>	Lycurgus: Paul Graham himself?
13:38:40	<Lycurgus>	the quicklisp guy
13:39:09	<Lycurgus>	can mess up ur distro is more powerful than I wrote the damn book
13:39:20	<hpc>	he posted the same thing in -offtopic, i suspect this is just spam
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13:39:34	<perdent1>	Its not spam
13:39:48	<perdent1>	I just dont know which channel is best to post in
13:39:57	<perdent1>	Thats active
13:40:21	<hpc>	-offtopic is better if it doesn't have to do with haskell directly
13:40:29	<steerio>	perdent1: I'd try on Reddit tbh
13:40:31	<pjb>	perdent1: try: /msg alis list crypto
13:40:42	<edwardk>	Lycurgus: the guy from a few weeks ago?
13:40:50	<hpc>	(some non-haskell stuff is on-topic here if it's tightly related, like category theory)
13:40:50	<pjb>	perdent1: or: /msg alis list challenge
13:41:44	<Lycurgus>	edwardk, by your analog I meant xach beane
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13:42:08	<edwardk>	i was asking more about the person who got kicked
13:42:16	<mniip>	lmfao
13:42:21	<mniip>	perdent1, so you come here?
13:42:31	<Lycurgus>	guess spj or somebody like that is here on occasion
13:42:45	<edwardk>	spj joined the channel one time in 12 years =)
13:42:52	<Lycurgus>	edwardk, oh that's perdent1
13:43:03	<edwardk>	jaffacake is more likely to come slumming.
13:43:04	<pjb>	perdent1: ain't this "prestigious one" unfriendly?
13:43:10	<Lycurgus>	so it's a live contrast
13:43:18	<Uniaika>	haha
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13:43:55	<edwardk>	14 years actually. i think the last time he was in here was 2006.
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13:45:10	<Lycurgus>	yeah i think that's when I first was here, albeit not with this nick
13:45:27	ChanServ	sets mode +o mniip
13:45:43	<Lycurgus>	'05/06
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13:51:55	<mniip>	(this CTF is sourced from elsewhere and the rules forbid discussing solutions while a challenge is active, and I have reasons to believe that this is not the author)
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14:46:22	<sedeki>	can someone explain to me why `fmap (+1) (4, 5)` is returning `(4, 6)`? how are pairs defined as functors?
14:48:14	<zebrag>	> fmap (+1) (4, 5)
14:48:16	<lambdabot>	(4,6)
14:48:25	<Uniaika>	sedeki: they are not :)
14:48:32	<Uniaika>	A Functor is defined on one element
14:48:55	<pjb>	Why the last of the pair?
14:48:55	<Uniaika>	so, how do you target one element of a data-structure that takes two parameters, like a pair?
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14:49:04	<pjb>	> fmap (+1) (1,2,3,4)
14:49:06	<lambdabot>	(1,2,3,5)
14:49:13	<pjb>	s/pair/tuple
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14:49:26	<sedeki>	pjb yes, thanks
14:49:31	<pjb>	I would have used the first element of the tuple…
14:49:53	<zebrag>	> (4, 5) >>= \x -> return (x + 1)
14:49:55	<lambdabot>	error:
14:49:55	<lambdabot>	• Ambiguous type variable ‘a0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M520039120492...
14:49:55	<lambdabot>	prevents the constraint ‘(Show a0)’ from being solved.
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14:50:02	<Uniaika>	you define the functor instance for the pair as 'instance Functor ((,) a)' sedeki
14:50:41	<sedeki>	i see. so it is a matter of definition in this case, in the sense that it was arbitrarily chosen
14:51:24	<zebrag>	> [3] >>= \x -> return (x + 1)
14:51:25	<lambdabot>	[4]
14:51:30	<sedeki>	it could have been `instance Functor (a (,))`
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14:51:34	<tomsmeding>	sedeki: it kind of is, but also kind of isn't arbitrary: Functor takes a type with one argument, so if something is a functor it's always in its last type variable
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14:51:53	<tomsmeding>	sedeki: if that would've been valid syntax, it would've meant the same :p
14:52:10	<tomsmeding>	it would have been nice if (,a) was allowed there, but unfortunately not
14:52:48	<tomsmeding>	> (Sum 4, 5) >>= \x -> return (x + 1)
14:52:50	<lambdabot>	(Sum {getSum = 4},6)
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14:52:59	<zebrag>	> Right 3 >>= \x -> return (x + 1)
14:53:00	<lambdabot>	Right 4
14:53:06	<tomsmeding>	zebrag: (a,b) is only a monad if 'a' is a Monoid
14:53:18	<zebrag>	> Left 3 >>= \x -> return (x + 1)
14:53:19	<lambdabot>	Left 3
14:53:24	<kaol>	At least maps get converted easily to and from 2-tuples and in that context it's handy to have fmap touch the second element since I'm far more likely to want to operate on values and not keys.
14:53:27	<sedeki>	tomsmeding are you saying that "type arguments" must be applied in order, left to right?
14:53:28	<zebrag>	tomsmeding: thanks
14:53:35	<tomsmeding>	sedeki: yes
14:53:43	<tomsmeding>	haskell doesn't have type-level lambda expressions
14:53:51	<sedeki>	tomsmeding so on of these are invalid syntax? "Either Int a" vs "Either a Int" ?
14:53:52	<tomsmeding>	so you can only partially apply things in-order
14:53:56	<sedeki>	so one*
14:54:06	<tomsmeding>	sedeki: no those are both valid, both fully apply Either :p
14:54:27	<e>	there's no way to spell Either [hole] Int tho
14:54:28	<tomsmeding>	but the argument to 'Functor' must be of kind 'Type -> Type'
14:54:45	<tomsmeding>	as e says
14:55:09	<sedeki>	tomsmeding ok, makes sense
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14:55:17	<tomsmeding>	you can do 'newtype MyEither a = MyEither (Either a Int)', but then you're making a new type -- which is the usual way of solving that problem
14:55:49	<tomsmeding>	and while you can write 'type MyEither' a = Either a Int' as well, you can't partially apply type synonyms so "instance Functor MyEither'" would be invalid
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14:56:57	<sedeki>	but i would write it as `instance Functor MyEither' a"
14:57:06	<sedeki>	`
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14:57:20	<sedeki>	iirc
14:57:42	<sedeki>	anyway, i get the gist of it
14:57:56	<sedeki>	tomsmeding thanks
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14:58:34	<sedeki>	how do I look up e.g. functor definitions on ghci?
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15:04:26	<tomsmeding>	sedeki: :i Functor
15:04:59	<tomsmeding>	sedeki: you'd write e.g. `instance Functor Maybe where`
15:05:09	<tomsmeding>	so also `instance Functor (Either Int) where`
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15:05:20	<Whytebored>	What does `=<<` mean?
15:05:28	<tomsmeding>	% :k Either Int -- sedeki
15:05:28	<yahb>	tomsmeding: * -> *
15:05:36	<tomsmeding>	(read * = Type)
15:05:45	<sedeki>	yeah i know
15:05:47	<tomsmeding>	:t (=<<) -- Whytebored
15:05:48	<lambdabot>	Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
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15:05:56	<tomsmeding>	:t (>>=)
15:05:57	<lambdabot>	Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
15:06:06	<tomsmeding>	Whytebored: (=<<) = flip (>>=)
15:06:29	<sedeki>	tomsmeding ":i Functor Maybe" just shows the top lines
15:06:33	<tomsmeding>	sedeki: so it wouldn't be `instance Functor MyEither' a` but `instance Functor MyEither'`, which is invalid :)
15:06:55	<tomsmeding>	sedeki: which info are you looking for
15:06:58	<tomsmeding>	the full instance definition?
15:07:01	<sedeki>	yes
15:07:19	<tomsmeding>	ghci won't show those
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15:07:28	<sedeki>	ok
15:07:30	<tomsmeding>	in general that could be in compiled code that ghci doesn't have to source for
15:07:36	<sedeki>	right, ok.
15:07:41	<tomsmeding>	sedeki: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.0.0/docs/src/GHC.Base.html#line-987
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15:08:12	<tomsmeding>	if you go to Functor or to Maybe in the haddocks, you can click the 'Source' link next to the instance to go there
15:08:29	<sedeki>	haddocks?
15:08:39	<tomsmeding>	haddock is ghc's documentation generator :p
15:08:48	<tomsmeding>	the reference documentation on hackage is what I meant
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15:09:23	<sedeki>	ok
15:09:58	<sedeki>	tomsmeding thanks again. leaving
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15:53:56	<Uniaika>	I'd like y'all opinion as Haskell users on https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/pull/417
15:54:30	<Uniaika>	tomsmeding, int-e, mpickering, maerwald koz_ ^
15:55:04	tomsmeding	is flustered
15:59:05	<tomsmeding>	Uniaika: when I currently do 'ghcup list', I get a 'latest' ghc version and a 'recommended' ghc version. I believe this is basically the latest and the next-to-latest. Are you proposing adding a third level?
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16:00:46	<Uniaika>	tomsmeding: not necessarily, just have a whole month between the final release packaging in the package managers, and its official release
16:01:10	<Uniaika>	so that we make it available for people who need time before we ship it to users
16:01:17	<tomsmeding>	which would be for the ecosystem-central but non-boot libraries, I guess
16:01:42	<Uniaika>	yup'
16:01:55	<Uniaika>	those libraries whose development doesn't follow closely the GHC development
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16:03:24	<tomsmeding>	IIRC the ghc devs already have some trouble once in a while with busy maintainers delaying a new release of boot libs
16:03:56	<tomsmeding>	but I guess this would be more "strongly advised" instead of "required" for the release
16:04:21	<maerwald>	tomsmeding: there's also "prerelease" in ghcup
16:04:25	<Uniaika>	tomsmeding: yeah the ghc dev team has solidified the control and maintenance of ghc boot libs
16:04:42	<tomsmeding>	maerwald: very good point
16:04:45	<Uniaika>	yup I could totally see ghcup have this Maintainer Preview in "pre-release"
16:05:12	<Uniaika>	but the proposal is not about dictating how ghcup should bundle it, it's more of a schedule + communication thing
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16:05:34	<Uniaika>	and if you agree or disagree I'd like to ask you to reply to the Proposal thread 🙇
16:05:44	<tomsmeding>	I'm currently more of a casual/academic user of haskell, so probably not the right person to ask regarding this proposal :)
16:05:59	<mpickering>	I am not sure what problem this solves
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16:09:16	<Uniaika>	mpickering: it's literally in the "Motivation" paragraph…
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16:18:28	<geekosaur>	let's put it this way, we're already in 9.2 prerelease and there are ecosystem libs not yet updated for 9.0.1
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16:20:14	<Uniaika>	geekosaur: that is indeed a fact
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16:25:30	<Logio>	who is the "final user" that needs to wait for things to be perfect, and how much are they paying package maintainers to make it so?
16:25:47	<Uniaika>	Logio: commercial adopters, end-users who develop applications?
16:26:33	<Logio>	why would they want to wait to get the newer compiler, compared to other users?
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16:26:55	<Uniaika>	IT'S LITERALLY WRITTEN IN THE PROPOSAL
16:27:00	<Uniaika>	READ IT
16:27:15	<Uniaika>	or pay me 50€ to spare you the burden of clicking two links.
16:27:33	<Uniaika>	because the ecosystem takes too much time to transition
16:27:43	<Uniaika>	because nobody has the energy to do things
16:27:44	<Logio>	I did read it, but I feel like it assumes a lot of things that I don't take as fact
16:27:49	<Uniaika>	Logio: such as?
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16:28:08	<maerwald>	I can put it a bit more controversial: if hackage/haskell was a distro, it would be considered dysfunctional. But this is also a question of scope.
16:28:27	<Logio>	like the fact that having a waiting time would improve things in a meaningful way
16:28:37	<Logio>	also what maerwald said ^
16:28:45	<Uniaika>	maerwald: it's not controversial at all, as an ecosystem/language pair, Hackage/Haskell is widely dysfunctional
16:28:56	<Uniaika>	that's a fact
16:29:25	<Uniaika>	Logio: it's a "waiting time" only from an end-user point of view. It's still release management but for the ecosystem
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16:31:32	<Logio>	I feel like that's the same as saying a fish is a dysfunctional bike rider
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16:32:22	<Uniaika>	if you see as much relationship between a language and official library ecosystem as between a fish and a boat, this indeed explains quite a lot your point of view.
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16:32:31	<Logio>	there's a compiler and there's things that use a compiler, having a fixed working set composed of them is an independent proposition
16:32:36	<Uniaika>	s/boat/bike/
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16:33:08	<Uniaika>	Logio: yet we have boot libs in GHC
16:33:14	<Logio>	I mean, the question is what you consider "official"
16:33:31	<Uniaika>	hackage
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16:34:16	<Uniaika>	it's hosted by haskell.org, the code is under the haskell namespace on GitHub, it's whence Cabal fetches dependencies by default
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16:35:22	<lyxia>	Well it seems true that currently when a new GHC version comes out, people are excited but most can't use it right away because libraries have yet to catch up, that's a shame, one might want to fix that, and that's what this proposal does.
16:36:13	<tomsmeding>	Uniaika: except nigh everybody can push to hackage?
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16:36:55	<Uniaika>	tomsmeding: Hackage trustees already curate packages to help with migrations
16:37:04	<tomsmeding>	I think it's unrealistic to expect that ~the whole of hackage updates to a new ghc when a new one comes out
16:37:15	<tomsmeding>	but it might be realistic to reduce that to popular, core libraries
16:37:33	<Uniaika>	so there are numerous precedents of "official" Hackage trustees taking on their shoulders the burden of having everything hold together
16:37:40	<fendor>	I don't think any waiting time would have made the transition from 8.10 to 9.0 any easier. The required changes are huge, e.g. even a couple of months after the release, HLS does not support it (iirc), and they have a bunch of very motivated (and capable) developers such as jneira.
16:37:44	<Uniaika>	tomsmeding: it's unrealistic indeed, I shall put that in the proposition
16:37:58	<maerwald>	I think the solution is much more radical and there's too little excitement in that direction: redefining what hackage is.
16:38:17	<Uniaika>	maerwald: I didn't want to go down that road right away but indeed…
16:38:21	<maerwald>	without excitement, you can't bring about change, even if you have the right ideas
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16:38:55	<Uniaika>	fendor: I'm not dissing the maintainers of HLS, but not every library had such an enormous amount of work ahead of them
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16:39:03	<maerwald>	ecosystem works for most ppl as is: ppl pin package versions via stack and nix or freeze files... almost no one does "rolling" anymore
16:39:20	<Logio>	Uniaika: It does feel like you want hackage to be stackage
16:39:34	<Uniaika>	Logio: it is not the case
16:39:40	<Uniaika>	that's maerwald's idea :P
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16:40:13	<fendor>	Uniaika, I am rather arguing that this particular transition is really a lot of work, one where I believe no amount of prep time would have made a difference
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16:41:15	<Uniaika>	fendor: and I agree with you
16:42:11	<maerwald>	you have to create incentives for ppl to put in extra work to be compatible with newer GHCs... your package being dropped from hackage would be such an incentive
16:42:25	<maerwald>	but probably too radical
16:42:34	<Logio>	I get the idea of having release schedules aligned between developers in a single organization, I just don't see how that relates to hackage
16:42:51	<sclv>	i'm actually confused about how this "maintainer preview" is substantively different from the pre-releases that now exist
16:43:02	<sclv>	I think the proposal would need to explain the difference for anyone to understand
16:43:22	<Logio>	maerwald: I don't get that kind of thinking, why should someones package be removed from hackage if it still works with some version of GHC?
16:43:33	<maerwald>	pre-releases don't follow any process, they're done ad-hoc
16:43:48	<maerwald>	Logio: to create incentives, as said above
16:43:54	<sclv>	I don't agree we should redefine what hackage is, I do think we should finally get support for overlays and better CI reporting across hackage
16:44:17	<sclv>	I.e. packages need some Authoritative Place to live (all packages)
16:44:18	<maerwald>	better CI reporting across hackage IS redefining it
16:44:22	<Logio>	maerwald: that's a disincentive to rely on hackage in the first place
16:44:37	<maerwald>	Logio: yes, it was just an example
16:44:37	<sclv>	but providing good subsets and ensuring them should be easier to layer on top instead of needing only third party solutions
16:45:23	<sclv>	ok, so this proposal is just "formalize and define pre-release process more"? that seems fine
16:46:22	<Uniaika>	sclv: yes, it's not a technical change to the produced artifacts
16:46:40	<sclv>	ok and there is also a pre-release process that currently exists.
16:46:45	<sclv>	including head.hackage -- do you know about that?
16:46:53	<sclv>	https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/head.hackage/
16:47:23	<Uniaika>	I know about it indeed
16:47:37	<Uniaika>	again, it's not a technical proposal
16:47:42	<Logio>	for me the whole point of having a consistent distribution from the language side seems a bit odd in general, if we're considering end users
16:47:49	<Logio>	speaking as a gentoo user
16:48:16	<maerwald>	gentoo is 80% policies, workflows and 20% patches... compare that with haskell ecosystem
16:48:32	<sclv>	Uniaika: I get its not technical. I'm asking that even as a process proposal it would be good to specify how the process differs from the process now, where there is typically already an extended pre-release that various systems make available. I.e. if this proposal is accepted, what "action items" would have to be taken by what people to implement it?
16:48:39	<Logio>	the end-user packaging is always going to be dictated by distro package managers with different constraints than the language ecosystem
16:48:39	<Uniaika>	Logio: speaking as a Funtoo user, I can assure you that consistency is the key to a pleasing experience ;)
16:48:47	<Uniaika>	ask the Arch users how their migrations go
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16:49:38	<Uniaika>	sclv: wait, before we continue, did you read the proposal?
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16:49:47	<sclv>	yes
16:50:13	<Logio>	Uniaika: yes, but it feels to me that consistency in a language ecosystem is just duplication (or waste) of work, since the effort needs to be taken anyway at the distro level
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16:50:35	<Uniaika>	sclv: what do the "Proposed change specification" and "operating costs" sections fail to answer?
16:50:45	<Uniaika>	let's focus on what is lacking from what I wrote
16:50:55	<sclv>	the proposed change section looks exactly like what already exists!
16:51:11	<sclv>	the pre-releases are published and put on various systems, and people are encouraged to use them and update their packages
16:51:18	<Uniaika>	sclv: we do not have any kind of efforts to actively prepare the ecosystem for the transition
16:51:18	<sclv>	the announcement email just has slightly different wording
16:51:22	<Uniaika>	that is a fact
16:51:24	<geekosaur>	Logio, distros package things for their needs, not those of developers. I don't think anyone but maybe C/C++ programmers relies on a distro for their language or packages
16:51:32	<Uniaika>	we do not mobilise any kind of volunteer teams
16:51:50	<geekosaur>	certainly all of perl, pythin, and js will tell you right off not to use a distro package for either
16:51:56	<Uniaika>	sclv: however I worded this badly, I'll correct
16:51:57	<Uniaika>	thanks
16:52:02	<sclv>	the proposal does not in the proposed section talk about mobilising a volunteer team
16:52:12	<Logio>	geekosaur: yeah, but that's my point; you don't need to stall releases to guard end users from bad experiences, that's the distro's job
16:52:24	<sclv>	a plan to have such a team would be good -- its just not there -- I'm not being negative, I'm trying to make sure we can pin down exactly what is different than before :-)
16:52:39	<Uniaika>	Logio: that's called having the package management strategy of C and C++, and it has failed
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16:53:21	<Uniaika>	sclv: I know you're not negative, and that is why I constantly ask you to be more specific, so that I can better address your remarks :)
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16:53:49	<sclv>	Uniaika: one change that would be welcome, but I think would accomplish little is that the announcements (such as https://discourse.haskell.org/t/ghc-9-2-1-alpha1-now-available/2286) don't tend to have language specifically encouraging maintainers to test the pre-release against their libs and ensure compatibility, nor do they point to easy places to install the pre-release from
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16:54:17	<maerwald>	geekosaur: python can be reasonably well packaged on distro level, despite much higher overall complexity than C
16:54:22	<sclv>	note that we probably would need a second announcement for this, since the first announcement is what notifies the various install tools (ghcup etc) that they can provide the release at all
16:54:22	<maerwald>	haskell not
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16:55:22	<Uniaika>	sclv: yes, good!
16:55:24	<Uniaika>	thank you
16:55:32	<sclv>	so its a "two phase" pre-release plan with ghchq doing what it normally does, and then the "release compat strike-force" making sure a good pre-release is avail in the Usual Ways, following which they announce "hey everyone, its easy to test your lib against this pre-release and head.hackage, here's how, please go for it"
16:55:55	<Uniaika>	yuup'
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16:56:02	<sclv>	(and arguably the alpha is too early for this anyway)
16:56:05	<Uniaika>	thanks for the wording
16:56:13	<Uniaika>	yeah that's why I'm talking about release candidates and stuff
16:56:28	<sclv>	:thumbsup:
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16:57:06	<sclv>	I do worry about emailing every maintainer.
16:57:33	<sclv>	if someone wants to be an active maintainer they'll surely follow at least some list where its announced, and if they're not, bugging them won't help much
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16:58:25	<sclv>	what the strikeforce needs is a CI tool to test a large-enough subset of Current Hackage (using maybe the matrix tools and head.hackage or the like) that they can figure out what the big roadblocks are
16:58:34	<sclv>	and some repo or place where they can organize and coordinate
16:59:27	<sclv>	(trustees used to do a lot more of this, but people burnt out on it, especially due to hostile maintainer responses -- having the strikeforce be community volunteers Without Special Ops Rights as distinct from trustees could help with this)
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17:00:48	<Uniaika>	👍
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17:01:22	<sclv>	i.e. there's a trustees-maintained cookbook for fixing packages to be compat with new ghc releases, it could be taken over by a new team, or kept there but with more contributors or etc: https://github.com/haskell-infra/hackage-trustees/blob/master/cookbook.md
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17:04:08	<Uniaika>	sclv: I updated the proposal, tell what you think: https://github.com/Kleidukos/ghc-proposals/blob/patch-1/proposals/0000-ghc-maintainer-preview.md
17:06:59	<sclv>	a fw things -- I would mention head.hackage and the cookbook as resources the team could use, and also note that the team should help coordinate making ghc available through ghcup, the ppa, etc. And also note that the team may also seek to implement more CI infrastructure to ease the task of finding the incompat packages
17:07:16	<sclv>	but its definitely clearer
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17:07:54	<Uniaika>	awesome, thanks
17:08:01	<sclv>	you may also want to note that rcs already exist but don't have a deliniated length of time, nor is there a coordinated effor to ensure their widespread availablility
17:08:37	<sclv>	so if i want to use a pre-release there's no One Place I can look now to find out "how do i install it most easily given my setup"
17:09:13	<sclv>	(back in the day in the day we used to have this via the haskell platform being the One True Method and it packaging up pre-releases as well. this led to burnout too... there's a pattern here, lol)
17:09:33	<maerwald>	I must also say I never received notification of imminent releases, unless I actively read #ghc, so ghcup always has a delay of a day or two.
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17:10:28	<Uniaika>	yes, maerwald's suffering must end at once
17:10:39	<maerwald>	lol
17:11:10	<geekosaur>	the ghc wiki has a status page for each release that tracks these things
17:11:29	<geekosaur>	e.g. expected rc and release dates
17:11:51	<maerwald>	are you saying these are accurate? :D
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17:13:44	<geekosaur>	they're generally updated as things slip
17:13:45	<Uniaika>	< sclv> so if i want to use a pre-release there's no One Place I can look now to find out "how do i install it most easily given my setup" // Yep I address this problem by saying "we make it available in ghcup and the ubuntu PPA"
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17:14:18	<maerwald>	geekosaur: that doesn't work
17:14:50	<maerwald>	geekosaur: what works is notifying packagers etc of an imminent release, so when the announcement hits, some works has already been done and it can be shipped quicker.
17:16:45	<maerwald>	as in: longer period between uploading releases and bindists and actual announcement
17:17:14	<maerwald>	then things can be more in lock-step
17:18:18	<sclv>	Uniaika: sure, making it available there helps, but also the announcement email (maintainer preview one, not ghchq one) saying "hey everyone, here's where you can get it from!" is good
17:18:29	<sclv>	people need to be reminded of things constantly, or they forget
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17:19:45	<codygman__>	Does anyone know that SPJ quote that was like "languages pass the point of no return" or something? I think it was SPJ. Maybe from "Escaping the ivory tower" or "Haskell is useless"?
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17:20:34	<Uniaika>	sclv: yes, that's why the idea is to have people whose duties explicitly include "reaching out to the community"
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17:20:49	<Uniaika>	codygman__: ivory tower I think. We are now too big to fail :P
17:21:07	<sclv>	i'm just pointing out what could be more explicit in the proposal :-)
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17:24:23	<Uniaika>	ok great
17:24:49	<codygman__>	Uniaika: Yep, https://youtu.be/re96UgMk6GQ :)
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17:25:01	<codygman__>	err time: https://youtu.be/re96UgMk6GQ?t=736
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17:25:43	<codygman__>	"Threshold of immortality" I guess is what I was looking for
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17:28:25	<Uniaika>	yus
17:28:26	<Uniaika>	thanks
17:30:39	<codygman__>	I needed that quote while talking about Git and Pijul in my roam notes for the curious: https://github.com/codygman/tech-roam/blob/master/20210403121246-why_is_git_so_popular.org
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17:31:57	<maerwald>	pijul is unpopular, because the maintainer has had issues with open source ;)
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17:33:22	<codygman__>	I'm not familiar with that... but that's sad if true since it seems good from the outside.
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17:33:41	<aldum>	I don't think anything will rival git as long as it's only somewhat better
17:34:40	<geekosaur>	"the good is the enemy of the perfect"
17:34:57	<aldum>	yes, but that's not necessarily a bad thing
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17:35:11	<codygman__>	Oh man.. you're gonna make me write about worse is better vs better is better again
17:35:23	<codygman__>	there goes my saturday
17:36:15	<codygman__>	aldum: That assertion is exactly what led me on this web I'm currently weaving :) https://github.com/codygman/tech-roam/blob/master/20210403120704-pijul.org#could-pijul-ever-supplant-git
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17:36:54	<codygman__>	and to record the idea of git/pijul integration and whether that's feasible
17:37:23	<codygman__>	so like "git is annoying here, I also have this in pijul, let's use pijul and let it do the right git things after" for say a cherry-pick
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18:48:39	<zebrag>	:t (2,3) >>= return . (+1)
18:48:40	<lambdabot>	(Monoid a, Num a, Num b) => (a, b)
18:49:12	<zebrag>	What does it want to do with the `Monoid` thing?
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18:50:47	<zebrag>	> ([2],3) >>= return . (+1) -- Can I combine `[2]` with something?
18:50:48	<lambdabot>	([2],4)
18:51:07	<hpc>	> (2, 3) >>= \_ -> (4, 10)
18:51:09	<lambdabot>	error:
18:51:09	<lambdabot>	• Ambiguous type variable ‘a0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M293951867439...
18:51:09	<lambdabot>	prevents the constraint ‘(Show a0)’ from being solved.
18:51:23	<hpc>	> (Sum 2, 3) >>= \_ -> (Sum 4, 10) -- bah
18:51:25	<lambdabot>	(Sum {getSum = 6},10)
18:51:31	<hpc>	it wants to combine them
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18:51:50	<zebrag>	hum
18:52:19	<hpc>	for lists that's appending, for Sum it's adding, for Product it's multiplication, for Const it's picking one or the other, etc
18:53:13	<zebrag>	> ([2],3) >>= \x -> ([5], x+1) -- interesting
18:53:15	<lambdabot>	([2,5],4)
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18:54:44	<hpc>	try applying the Monad laws to tuples and you'll find it naturally comes up
18:54:58	<hpc>	(or Applicative laws might be easier)
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19:48:49	<zebrag>	`stack install HaTeX; wget .../tikz.hs; stack tikz.hs; lualatex tikz.tex; mupdf tikz.pdf`
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19:52:26	<shalokshalom>	Hi there
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19:53:25	<shalokshalom>	I am someone who I new to the language and everywhere I read something about it, it seems like tons of features has been added, who were later regretted and now its considered 'harmful' doing it like that.
19:54:15	<shalokshalom>	It feels like there are trip wires all over the place and I hope its just possible to find documentation that simply equals to 'Haskell: The good parts'
19:54:55	<koz_>	shalokshalom: I don't think that this, even as a whole, is an agreed-upon sentiment.
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19:55:05	<koz_>	Much less what such 'regretted' things are specifically.
19:55:11	<koz_>	Can you give an example?
19:55:41	<monochrom>	"tons of features has been added" sounds more like C++ than Haskell
19:55:58	<shalokshalom>	I just read the Haskell wiki and on basically every article is some form of "dont do it that way" and "that way is dangerous too"
19:56:02	<koz_>	Also what monochrom said.
19:56:06	<koz_>	shalokshalom: Again, specifics please.
19:56:15	<koz_>	Your generalizations make it impossible to meaningfully comment.
19:56:16	<monochrom>	Don't read the Haskell wiki then.
19:56:45	<shalokshalom>	I am more interested into a solution and not into discussing this.
19:56:59	<monochrom>	This is what happens when technology enthusiasists, as opposed to education enthusiasists, dominate.
19:57:15	<koz_>	shalokshalom: Sure. What particular problem are you seeking to solve?
19:57:22	<koz_>	You're saying 'there are a bunch of problems'.
19:57:28	<koz_>	I'm responding 'what are they'.
19:57:33	<koz_>	You're responding 'dunno just solve em'.
19:57:36	<koz_>	Can you see the issue here?
19:57:50	<koz_>	Furthermore, your initial comment sounded like you wanted clarification/discussion, not solutions.
19:57:53	<shalokshalom>	If you dont see them, you are not the right person to solve them.
19:58:22	<koz_>	shalokshalom: I apologize for not being a digital mind-reader.
19:58:39	<Rembane>	shalokshalom: Are you trolling? Or is there anything we can do for you?
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19:58:57	<shalokshalom>	I hope its just possible to find documentation that simply equals to 'Haskell: The good parts'
19:59:02	<maerwald>	shalokshalom: it comes with the nature of experimentation and hype driven development that things are regretted later
19:59:05	<monochrom>	The "Haskell: the good parts" you're looking for are quality Haskell textbooks. Not wiki anything, as said.
19:59:11	<maerwald>	there are good and bad parts about it
19:59:23	<shalokshalom>	maerwald: I know
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19:59:31	<monochrom>	See my http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/learn-sources.html for a few that I think are OK.
19:59:36	<shalokshalom>	thanks
20:00:40	<maerwald>	I'm considering haskell prone to hype driven development, even in industry. That also has good sides (highly engaged engineers).
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20:00:59	<maerwald>	I'm not sure I need to solve this as a problem
20:01:14	<maerwald>	So I'll let you do it
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20:01:59	<geekosaur>	hype driven development is an occupational / industry problem, not a language problem
20:02:14	<maerwald>	geekosaur: there is synergy
20:02:22	<maerwald>	industry users get their GHC extensions in
20:02:30	<shalokshalom>	https://www.snoyman.com/blog/2020/10/haskell-bad-parts-1/
20:02:44	<maerwald>	last I checked linear types are driven by Tweag? So they probably have some use case in mind
20:02:45	<monochrom>	I don't call that synergy, I call that hiidden variable. Human nature is the hidden variable.
20:02:54	<geekosaur>	note that not everyone agrees with snoyman about the supposed "bad parts"
20:02:55	<maerwald>	applicativeDo was a corner case of an industry user too
20:03:00	<maerwald>	and it's really bad
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20:03:26	<monochrom>	Indeed I don't even fearmonger against existential types either.
20:03:41	<maerwald>	they actuall make sense
20:04:00	<geekosaur>	in the meantime our guest has left
20:04:04	<maerwald>	so sad
20:04:07	<koz_>	'Guest'.
20:04:16	<monochrom>	It is not an anti-pattern, unless you're in the context of saying that all of OO is an anti-pattern, which could be true in most cases. >:)
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20:06:53	<pjb>	monochrom: I fail to see how OO could be an anti-pattern; OO is basically modularity. When are the big-ball-of-mud or spaghetti-code the pattern of choice vs. OO?
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20:07:32	<monochrom>	That's a loaded question.
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20:09:13	<geekosaur>	also, what style of OO?
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20:10:42	<zebrag>	o_O
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20:11:33	<maerwald>	I think it's a trap
20:11:37	<monochrom>	But consider the big ball of mud that was Java before generics in which, for example, the Map insert method was "insert(Object key, Object value)", and the lookup method was "Object lookup(Object key)".
20:12:12	<monochrom>	"every value is an object" is the same as "every value is a ball of mud".
20:13:29	<monochrom>	In those backward days, you had to choose between two balls of mud.
20:13:36	<monochrom>	And it was uphill both ways.
20:13:44	<monochrom>	Also always snowing.
20:14:17	<maerwald>	OO was about hiding context/state arguments to functions. We reinvented that in haskell with ReaderT and friends
20:14:59	<monochrom>	I am holding this issue dearer to my heart than usual because recently I finished drafting explaining parametricity to undergrads.
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20:15:57	<monochrom>	And BTW modularity is not basically OO. Modularity is basically SML's parametrized modules.
20:16:31	<monochrom>	Or Modula-3 or Oberon or Ada to see it is not monopolized by FP.
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20:18:48	<monochrom>	This also relates to an earlier conversation about good, perfect, popular.
20:19:12	<monochrom>	Networking effect trumps them all. Networking effect is better. Networking effect is more.
20:20:00	<monochrom>	Modula-3 etc solves the modularity problem people were having. OO solves it too, to be sure.
20:20:23	<monochrom>	But people have only heard of C++ and Java. They never heard of Modula-3 etc. That settled it.
20:20:55	<maerwald>	not our fault academics can't decide on one language
20:21:43	<Clint>	it's because borland didn't make a modula-3 compiler
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20:22:18	<monochrom>	:)
20:22:37	<monochrom>	But Borland made a Prolog compiler. That didn't fly either.
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20:22:48	<edwardk>	clearly it is all jwiegley's fault for running the wrong team at borland
20:23:29	<edwardk>	monochrom: prolog was doomed once windows NT used it to calculate device driver loading order
20:23:32	<edwardk>	it peaked early
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20:24:01	<int-e>	. o O ( prolog needed to be pure )
20:24:04	<monochrom>	Wait, so is that what systemd is doing now? >:)
20:24:24	<int-e>	monochrom: constraint solving is alive and well
20:24:37	<int-e>	it just tends to be hidden
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20:27:56	<edwardk>	int-e: i never did ask. are you named after the page fault interrupt or the one for the disk drive?
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20:35:18	<hpc>	edwardk: are you named after the guy that uploads all those haskell packages?
20:37:08	<maerwald>	haha
20:37:40	<int-e>	edwardk: neither
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20:40:33	<edwardk>	hpc: i met him once. it is more like a dread pirate roberts kind of thing. he showed up at my house, said 'here, this is how you upload packages' and then left.
20:40:44	<edwardk>	i've been trying to figure out what to do ever since.
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20:43:09	<hpc>	he faded away like yoda?
20:44:03	<geekosaur>	vanished in a puff of higher-order logic?
20:44:57	<int-e>	but left behind a few Back to the Future puns?
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20:50:38	<int-e>	(I'm still not over https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bifunctors-5.5.10/docs/Data-Bifunctor-Biff.html#t:Biff, https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bifunctors-5.5.10/docs/Data-Bifunctor-Tannen.html#t:Tannen)
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20:51:42	<hpc>	that's almost as good as hasslich = unschoen
20:52:11	<int-e>	hässlich ist unschön :)
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22:02:26	<edwardk>	Biff started as the bifunctor functor functor bifunctor
22:02:57	<edwardk>	then tannen was from the lack of a name for the opposite wrapping til i realized it was the same as the cayley construction
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22:05:23	<edwardk>	profunctors will soon have quantified superclasses so i'll be able to retire Tannen potentially
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22:59:17	<sim590>	When you have `newtype A = B deriving Show` where B is not an instance of Show. How do you make it so `let a = B ; show a` works, i.e. that a is interpreted as type A so that the Show instance comes into play?
23:00:14	<sim590>	In short, I have a type which doesn't implement Show and I want to print this type in another module without deriving Show on the type for in the first module. I just want to have a derivation of show for some debugging purposes through another module.
23:00:44	<L29Ah>	sim590: write an instance declaration
23:01:05	<sim590>	Why doesn't deriving work?
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23:01:28	<sim590>	It compiles, but just doesn't work as I would want it at run time.
23:03:14	<sim590>	This: http://ix.io/2UX6 compiles, but when I do `fromBSTree (Leaf $ (LBSLeaf 0 0 :: DebugLBSNode Int))`, I get Couldn't match expected type ‘DebugLBSNode Int’ with actual type ‘LBSNode Integer’.
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23:05:32	<sim590>	L29Ah: and if I try to write an instance of Show, I get the same type of error about not being able to match the type.
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23:09:08	<sim590>	I get it. I need a constructor for the newtype.
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23:10:15	<sim590>	But, I would have preferred using Deriving for something so simple.
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23:12:48	<dmwit>	sim590: Probably the simplest thing is to go the other direction: have an internal normal data type with a Show instance, then write a newtype wrapper that doesn't have it.
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23:13:07	<dmwit>	Then you can use deriving for the Show instance on the internal type.
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23:16:20	<sim590>	dmwit: But then all my functions that are already defined for the internal type will need to have a counter part defined for the exposed type. Is there a way to create that substitution easily without making a one-to-one match of functions in another module?
23:16:35	<dmwit>	no =(
23:16:50	<sim590>	:( indeed.
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All times are in UTC on 2021-04-03.