Logs on 2021-04-08 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 00:21:04 | <wrunt> | Alexis King had a post about this recently: https://lexi-lambda.github.io/blog/2020/11/01/names-are-not-type-safety/ |
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| 00:38:13 | <carter> | Newtype is better than synonyms |
| 00:39:43 | <carter> | Though at least for some stuff physics units would be even nicer :) |
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| 01:15:05 | <d34df00d> | wrunt: I remember reading it and disagreeing but I don't precisely remember nicer its points nor my counterpoints. |
| 01:18:16 | <solidus-river> | hey all, i'm trying to get better at reasoning about the different modes of haskell (arrow, applicative, monadic etc) I'm writing a lot of blocks of code that look odd to me in a monadic form and am wondering if theres a way to write them in an Applicative form better. I can't seem to make the compiler happy when trying to switch from do notation to an Applicative approach though. here's a quikc |
| 01:18:22 | <solidus-river> | paste of the relevant funcs https://paste.tomsmeding.com/FK5tB1Gz |
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| 01:20:03 | <solidus-river> | maybe I need to move away from newtype nad into data to get an applicative form of that to work around the lines of: MkVersionedEvent <$> parseId id <*> parseSeq seq <*> pure blob |
| 01:20:17 | <solidus-river> | but i'm not sure what the trade-offs are of newtype vs data |
| 01:21:43 | <solidus-river> | or maybe i could iteratively build a tuple up with , ... |
| 01:21:48 | <wrunt> | solidus-river: I think you have the right idea with that change. There are a couple of un-idiomatic things you're doing currently. |
| 01:22:06 | <wrunt> | You wouldn't typically newtype a tuple -- just use data. |
| 01:22:33 | <wrunt> | And you wouldn't typically call your VersionedEvent constructor MkVersionedEvent, just call it VersionedEvent, though this doesn't really matter. |
| 01:23:21 | <wrunt> | And you wouldn't typically pass three arguments to a function as a list. parseEvent should have type ByteString -> ByteString -> ByteString -> Maybe VersionedEvent |
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| 01:25:11 | <solidus-river> | hey, those all make a lot of sense, going to try reworking things like that and see if some of this gets cleaned up |
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| 01:28:35 | <solidus-river> | wrunt: thanks for the insight, I felt like things were getting more awkward than needed as I worked with more do notation while parsing |
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| 01:29:08 | <pjb> | .br |
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| 03:18:16 | <Axman6> | pjb: you after this? https://ift.tt/3wCCaia |
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| 03:35:22 | <koz_> | Where can I find the list of boot packages again? |
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| 04:23:18 | <gnumonic> | This is probably a dumb question, but why does "f . g $ x" sometimes fail to typecheck even though "f $ g $ x" or "f (g x)" will? |
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| 04:24:45 | <c_wraith> | in what situations? If it involves things with types like runST, it's because of the lack of impredicative instantiation. If it's something else, you probably misgrouped the identifiers |
| 04:26:09 | <c_wraith> | I wonder if quick look impredicative types will actually make runST . foo typecheck |
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| 04:26:31 | <gnumonic> | Mostly I've run into it with 'withSingI' from singletons (where g is withSingI and x expects a SingI context) |
| 04:31:51 | <koz_> | Where can I find the list of boot packages again? |
| 04:32:03 | <c_wraith> | those types are weird. I'm betting GHC is hitting the same code paths mean it can't instantiate some parameter with a polytype |
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| 07:25:10 | <nshepperd> | when's the impredicative polymorphism that works coming? I've finally found a case where i think i need it heh |
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| 07:26:08 | <c_wraith> | it's in the current alpha |
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| 07:28:39 | <nshepperd> | awesome |
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| 12:00:42 | <rann> | hi haskell peeps, quick question (very new to haskell). suppose I have a collection of handlers that take input and produce output. suppose that I want each handler in the collection (an ordered list) to call each other; how would you go about that in haskell? |
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| 12:03:42 | <jacks2> | what is the type of the handler? |
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| 12:04:05 | <rann> | I haven't defined that yet, could esentially be a function |
| 12:05:43 | <rann> | so, say [f1, f2, f3], then f1 calls f2, which in turn is triggered to call f3, (no different types of arguments, all string in, string out, which serves this example) |
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| 12:09:15 | <jacks2> | > let handlers = [(++"!") . map toUpper] in foldr (.) (const "hello") handlers "" |
| 12:09:17 | <lambdabot> | "HELLO!" |
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| 12:14:18 | <jacks2> | > let applyHandlers handlers s = foldr (.) (const s) handlers ""; in applyHandlers [(++"!") . map toUpper] "hello" |
| 12:14:20 | <lambdabot> | "HELLO!" |
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| 12:17:29 | <jacks2> | should have typed [(++"!"), map toUpper], ie, a list of two String -> String functions, but, it also worked with (.) :) |
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| 12:18:45 | <BosonCollider> | I've been wondering |
| 12:19:25 | <BosonCollider> | could you design something similar to ML functors but for typeclass implementations, if you view typeclasses like module signatures? |
| 12:19:48 | <geekosaur> | backpack? |
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| 12:20:35 | <geekosaur> | not quite the same thing but close |
| 12:22:06 | <BosonCollider> | I don't really mean exactly implementing modules, but something like functorname : (quantifiers, typeclass constraints) -> Typeclass a b ... { body} |
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| 12:23:03 | <BosonCollider> | so that you can write a generic implementation of the typeclass on the right, and substitute in any specific type instead of implementing it by hand |
| 12:23:37 | <geekosaur> | that's been done using Generics, yes |
| 12:25:09 | <geekosaur> | or the way Foldable does it, just drop in a toList and the rest can be (un-optimally) generically implemented, or you can provide optimized versions |
| 12:26:13 | <BosonCollider> | no, that's not what I mean |
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| 12:27:04 | <BosonCollider> | because this would allow you to pick an implementation if you have conflicting generic implementations |
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| 12:28:51 | <rann> | jacks2: thanks! |
| 12:29:03 | <BosonCollider> | like for example, if I have a Heap typeclass and want to implement monofoldable for any type that implements Heap (foldable doesn't work here because of the Ord constraint, but that's a separate issue) |
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| 12:31:53 | <BosonCollider> | then I can't implement monofoldable for all instances of heap for a number of reasons from conflicting implementations to orphan impls etc etc |
| 12:32:53 | <kenanmarasli> | I don't know if this is a very noob question, but why is there an ambiguity problem with this code here? |
| 12:32:54 | <kenanmarasli> | `sumList = foldl (\x y->x+y) 0 |
| 12:32:54 | <kenanmarasli> | prodList = foldl (\x y->x*y) 1 |
| 12:32:55 | <kenanmarasli> | main = print $ sumList [1,2,3]` |
| 12:32:55 | <kenanmarasli> | Error: |
| 12:32:56 | <kenanmarasli> | `689417354/source.hs:3:12: error: |
| 12:32:56 | <BosonCollider> | but what this would do is allow someone to take an implementation I wrote and specify "this type uses this named implementation from X" |
| 12:32:56 | <kenanmarasli> | • Ambiguous type variable ‘t0’ arising from a use of ‘foldl’ |
| 12:32:57 | <kenanmarasli> | prevents the constraint ‘(Foldable t0)’ from being solved. |
| 12:32:57 | <kenanmarasli> | Relevant bindings include |
| 12:32:58 | <kenanmarasli> | prodList :: t0 Integer -> Integer |
| 12:32:58 | <kenanmarasli> | (bound at 689417354/source.hs:3:1) |
| 12:32:59 | <kenanmarasli> | Probable fix: use a type annotation to specify what ‘t0’ should be. |
| 12:32:59 | <kenanmarasli> | These potential instances exist: |
| 12:33:00 | <kenanmarasli> | instance Foldable (Either a) -- Defined in ‘Data.Foldable’ |
| 12:33:00 | <kenanmarasli> | instance Foldable Maybe -- Defined in ‘Data.Foldable’ |
| 12:33:01 | <kenanmarasli> | instance Foldable ((,) a) -- Defined in ‘Data.Foldable’ |
| 12:33:01 | <kenanmarasli> | ...plus one other |
| 12:33:02 | <kenanmarasli> | ...plus 22 instances involving out-of-scope types |
| 12:33:15 | <kenanmarasli> | Ah damn it I thought it would markdown properly |
| 12:33:57 | <geekosaur> | please don't paste into the channel |
| 12:34:01 | <geekosaur> | @where paste |
| 12:34:01 | <lambdabot> | Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com |
| 12:34:15 | <kenanmarasli> | Alright, sorry about that |
| 12:34:29 | <geekosaur> | anyway the usual cause of that is you need to specify that you want a list |
| 12:35:01 | <geekosaur> | including the code that caused that error would help |
| 12:35:34 | <rann> | jacks2: what does (++"!") do? |
| 12:35:42 | <BosonCollider> | I also see this pop up in Rust a lot where a common pattern is writing a macro that implements a typeclass |
| 12:35:48 | <rann> | just add the "!"? |
| 12:35:52 | <BosonCollider> | or trait over there |
| 12:35:56 | <geekosaur> | rann, it just appends the "!" |
| 12:35:57 | <lortabac> | BosonCollider: I'm not 100% sure I understand, but it seems that DerivingVia can be used to achieve something similar |
| 12:36:17 | <geekosaur> | it's a section on the (++) operator |
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| 12:36:45 | <geekosaur> | (you can look up "haskell section operator" for full details, but it's basically partial application applied to an operator) |
| 12:37:15 | <kenanmarasli> | geekosaur thank you sir. I have the code and error here: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/M5WXR9Im |
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| 12:39:23 | <kenanmarasli> | Here I don't understand why I need to specify that I want a list, when it works without the second function definition |
| 12:39:26 | <geekosaur> | oh, this is the monomorphism restriction operating on prodList |
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| 12:39:41 | <geekosaur> | it can guess for sumList because you apply it to a list later |
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| 12:40:15 | <geekosaur> | the root of the problem is that you don't specify parameters to either sumList or prodList, so it wants to monomorphize their types on the assumption that you want sharing to occur |
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| 12:40:36 | <geekosaur> | so if you eta-expand them (prodList xs = ... xs) things will work |
| 12:40:56 | <kenanmarasli> | I see, thank you very much :) |
| 12:41:41 | <kenanmarasli> | Again, thank you for telling me how to share code here. Won't paste again :) |
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| 12:42:38 | <geekosaur> | basically, without parameters it doesn't "look like a function" so it assumes you don't want it to behave like a function, but like a value. so make it look like a function. or you can specify the type with a type signature to tell it what you want to do instead of having it guess via the monomorphism restriction |
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| 12:45:56 | <geekosaur> | this also won't happen in ghci because it can't see beyond the line you just threw at it, so it would monomorphize way too often; as such we turn off the monomorphism restriction in ghci by default |
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| 12:47:43 | <kenanmarasli> | Makes sense. In our lecture we use a compiler environment but I didn't know about monomorphism restriction before. I'll read more about it |
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| 12:50:32 | <BosonCollider> | lortabac: Ah, that just gets rid of newtypes afaik. I'm thinking more of something like: if I have a typeclass OkasakiHeap h that denotes a generic persistent heap, then there is a natural monofoldable definition for any instance of it |
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| 12:51:01 | <BosonCollider> | which is basically equivalent to folding over a heapsorted list |
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| 12:51:40 | <lortabac> | you can do that in plain Haskell |
| 12:51:42 | <BosonCollider> | but I can't define a generic implementation of MonoFoldable h for all OkasakiHeap h |
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| 12:52:00 | <BosonCollider> | I have to define Monofoldable for all individual instances of OkasakiHeap |
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| 12:52:19 | <lortabac> | why? |
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| 12:52:30 | <olligobber> | yay https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/merge_requests/5495 |
| 12:52:40 | <BosonCollider> | because typeclass bounds aren't subtyping |
| 12:52:47 | <olligobber> | mpickering, nice work |
| 12:53:32 | <lortabac> | BosonCollider: I think I don't understand, I'll let someone else answer |
| 12:53:48 | <BosonCollider> | like, what do you do if a user implements your typeclass |
| 12:53:58 | <BosonCollider> | on a foreign type that already implements monofoldable |
| 12:54:28 | <geekosaur> | this sounds like instance Foo a => Bar a which overlaps everything |
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| 12:55:22 | <olligobber> | you could write some template haskell to automatically drive MonoFoldable from OkasakiHeap so it can be easily added and removed depending whether other instances exist |
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| 12:56:07 | <BosonCollider> | right, to do it normally you inevitable end up with macros of some kind, which is usually an indication that you have a missing feature |
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| 12:57:28 | <olligobber> | yeah, I guess it would be nice to have a way to insert classes into the heirachy without either breaking stuff or manually considering each type... |
| 12:57:59 | <BosonCollider> | so basically what I'm suggesting is something like NAMEDINSTANCE a : Foo a => Bar a |
| 12:58:32 | <BosonCollider> | where the user can write NAMEDINSTANCE ConcreteType in their source file |
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| 12:58:55 | <olligobber> | right, a macro can do that |
| 12:59:16 | <BosonCollider> | right, it's usually done with macros now, which is untyped |
| 12:59:50 | <olligobber> | it will get type checked at some point though |
| 13:00:00 | <BosonCollider> | I was thinking of how this would work as a first class feature |
| 13:00:11 | <BosonCollider> | and then it sort of looks like a module functor |
| 13:00:22 | <BosonCollider> | but where you view typeclasses as module signatures |
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| 13:01:03 | <olligobber> | hmm, now you're tempting me to try and write a better class system... |
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| 13:02:26 | <hyperisco> | olligobber, like socialism? |
| 13:02:56 | <olligobber> | I'm also tempted to do that, but I'm better at maths and programming than economics and politics |
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| 13:05:53 | <BosonCollider> | lol |
| 13:06:21 | <BosonCollider> | anyway, I also noticed that in Rust which comes with syntax-rules macros out of the box, this like one of the top three most common uses |
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| 13:08:21 | <BosonCollider> | though its syntax for generics is more boilerplate heavy than Haskells |
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| 14:44:55 | <ixlun> | Hi all, just wondered if anyone knows when GHC 8.10.5 is scheduled for release? |
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| 15:00:08 | <nut> | does <1,2,3> denote a vector? |
| 15:00:18 | <nut> | like [1,2,3] a list |
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| 15:01:12 | <c_wraith> | It denotes a syntax error in Haskell |
| 15:01:23 | <c_wraith> | If you're seeing it used in a text, it's a meta-symbol |
| 15:01:45 | <nut> | I am seeing it in the vector haddock |
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| 15:02:18 | <nut> | It would be wonderfuly useful if i could use it to easily denote a vector |
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| 15:13:31 | fendor_ | is now known as fendor |
| 15:14:13 | <fendor> | Are there any other common command line interface parsers except for optparse-applicative? Just out of curiosity |
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| 15:17:10 | <maerwald> | yeah |
| 15:17:28 | <maerwald> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cmdargs |
| 15:17:54 | <maerwald> | sm[m] likes it, never used it myself |
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| 15:20:30 | <fendor> | thanks! |
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| 15:31:18 | <cub3s_> | Should library-only packages have nix-build ability? |
| 15:31:28 | <cub3s_> | (Just wondering if that's just for packages with executables.) |
| 15:33:11 | <maerwald> | cub3s_: there are tools to generate nix expressions, no? Just let ppl use those? |
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| 15:45:16 | <dcbdan> | 3 |
| 15:45:27 | <Zemyla> | > 3 |
| 15:45:29 | <lambdabot> | 3 |
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| 16:02:55 | <maerwald> | <3 |
| 16:03:32 | <cub3s_> | maerwald, only such tool i've seen is haskell.nix.. |
| 16:03:43 | <maerwald> | cabal2nix? |
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| 16:17:25 | <sm[m]> | fendor: let us know how it goes |
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| 16:18:28 | <dmj`> | cub3s_: any haskell package can be built with nix |
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| 16:19:03 | <dmj`> | cub3s_: nix uses a Setup.hs script, not cabal nor stack. Just Cabal. |
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| 16:22:45 | <cub3s_> | dmj`, maerwald, well it seems to me that cabal2nix just converts a .cabal file into a .nix file. But the *surrounding stuff* (for nix-shell and nix-build) people seem to disagree on. |
| 16:22:48 | <cub3s_> | Quoting https://github.com/cdepillabout/post-about-nix-and-haskell/blob/master/2019-08-03-q-and-as-about-nix-for-haskellers.md : "I recommend disregarding the advice from both the haskell-nix walk-through and the nixpkgs manual. Instead, you should setup your repos similar to how the example repo is structured." |
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| 16:25:08 | <dmj`> | cub3s_: you can just use vanilla nixpkgs, you don't need haskell.nix, that's moreso what I use |
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| 16:25:32 | <dmj`> | cub3s_: echo "(import ./default.nix {}).env" > nix |
| 16:25:38 | <dmj`> | cub3s_: nix-shell --run 'ghc-pkg list' |
| 16:26:21 | <dmj`> | cub3s_: I put this in my .zshrc and just call `dn` when I hop into new projects |
| 16:26:26 | <dmj`> | cub3s_: function dn () { echo "{ pkgs ? import <nixpkgs> {} }: pkgs.haskellPackages.callCabal2nix \"$(basename $PWD)\" ./. {}" > default.nix } |
| 16:26:32 | <dmj`> | cub3s_: then you can just call "nix-build" |
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| 16:26:48 | <dmj`> | echo "(import ./default.nix {}).env" > shell.nix, rather |
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| 17:00:11 | ChanServ | sets mode +o monochrom |
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| 17:00:30 | monochrom | sets mode +b-bo $a:perdent *!*@192.145.118.58 monochrom |
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| 17:02:28 | <solvr> | "Functional programming is to turn on the light, you need to rebuild your house" |
| 17:02:40 | <solvr> | How to avoid this |
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| 17:03:20 | <[exa]> | solvr: why'd rebuild? |
| 17:03:31 | <solvr> | Because it's immutable, duh :P |
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| 17:03:37 | <dolio> | Stop reading blog posts. |
| 17:03:42 | <[exa]> | +1 ^ |
| 17:03:48 | <monochrom> | Any objection if I ban? |
| 17:04:03 | <solvr> | Rly? |
| 17:04:32 | <monochrom> | They were at this at length just a couple of days ago. |
| 17:05:11 | <solvr> | Can you remind me? |
| 17:05:14 | <[exa]> | what's the blog post though |
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| 17:06:58 | ChanServ | sets mode +o monochrom |
| 17:07:07 | monochrom | sets mode +b $a:solvr |
| 17:07:09 | <sm[m]> | monochrom: yes, please try to minimise banning |
| 17:07:20 | <geekosaur> | if this is who I think it is they were reading snoyberg's "the bad parts" and taking it as gospel |
| 17:07:26 | <geekosaur> | and "how do I avoid all of this" |
| 17:07:35 | <monochrom> | OK fine, your poison. |
| 17:07:42 | monochrom | sets mode -b $a:solvr |
| 17:07:47 | monochrom | sets mode -o monochrom |
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| 17:09:17 | <[exa]> | whew, that was a heated discussion I guess |
| 17:10:31 | <sm[m]> | how close are we to the ecosystem being ghc 9.0 ready, do you think |
| 17:11:19 | <sm[m]> | I feel there should be some threshold at which to declare victory |
| 17:12:26 | <sm[m]> | eg when ghc 9 appears in stackage nightly ? but last time, stackage nightly seemed really slow |
| 17:12:37 | <monochrom> | I usually take a look at "ghcup list" and whichever one it says "recommended" is ready. |
| 17:13:24 | <sm[m]> | when does that happen, maerwald ? |
| 17:14:50 | <sm[m]> | I saw a haskell foundation proposal about tweaking GHC preview releases and encouraging packages to update promptly, but couldn't find it again |
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| 17:15:23 | <sm[m]> | ok, google is my friend. https://discourse.haskell.org/t/ghc-proposal-ghc-maintainer-previews/2309 |
| 17:16:37 | <monochrom> | geekosaur: I think the good-part-bad-part person was different, shalokshalom |
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| 17:19:14 | <maerwald> | sm[m]: we look at a) are there outstanding serious bugs, b) how far is ecosystem adoption, c) is there a stackage version |
| 17:19:30 | <maerwald> | for 9.0 there are still bugs |
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| 17:21:59 | <sm[m]> | maerwald: I see.. good things to consider |
| 17:22:02 | <cub3s_> | dmj`, interesting. so from that point of you, seems like you prefer haskell projects without any .nix files already in it |
| 17:22:15 | <cub3s_> | dmj`, for otherwise you have to merge your stuff into existing stuff |
| 17:22:22 | <sm[m]> | and I guess "is there a stackage version" depends on the other two |
| 17:22:37 | <geekosaur> | so does the ecosystem, for that matter |
| 17:23:44 | <sm[m]> | I like cdsmith's idea at https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/pull/417 of notifying maintainers when their package is blocking the ecosystem |
| 17:23:59 | <sm[m]> | ie, all your deps build with new ghc but you don't |
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| 17:43:20 | <dmj`> | cub3s_: doesn't matter, you can choose to ignore the existing nix files in a project, or if its something hairy like building GHC itself (which really sucks), or building llvm, its nice to use pre-existing nix files |
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| 17:45:17 | <dmj`> | cub3s_: if your project is just haskell you can use stack + docker, but if it uses third party deps, or you want to build and deploy projects in multiple languages nix is where its at |
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| 18:04:56 | <maerwald> | sm[m]: I think the only way to achieve swifter ecosystem migrations is to incorporate a bug tracker on hackage |
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| 18:09:21 | <sm[m]> | homebrew seems quite good at this |
| 18:10:09 | <sm[m]> | often before I get to update my formula there, random brew maintainers have already done it |
| 18:14:06 | <maerwald> | distros usually have a stronger identity component (e.g. NixOS), while language ecosystem often drift apart |
| 18:14:57 | <maerwald> | so to compensate for that drift, you need a platform that is minimal in annoyance and has low entry barrier in coordinating issues |
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| 18:15:08 | <maerwald> | hackage is not that |
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| 18:18:30 | <sm[m]> | maerwald: how about an etherpad page |
| 18:18:54 | <maerwald> | not sure that's the right tool |
| 18:18:58 | <sm[m]> | I'm only half joking, it would probably help a lot |
| 18:19:10 | <maerwald> | I'm actually thinking about something really boring, like bugzilla |
| 18:19:26 | <sm[m]> | plus a team of migrators to file issues etc./ |
| 18:19:36 | <sm[m]> | oh god not bugzilla |
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| 18:20:15 | <maerwald> | it should be something boring |
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| 18:20:26 | <sm[m]> | I would say github issues, but I know that stops progress right there |
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| 18:20:34 | <maerwald> | no, github is proprietary |
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| 18:20:43 | <maerwald> | and many ppl don't host their project even there |
| 18:20:44 | <sm[m]> | gitlab! github! ... |
| 18:20:56 | <maerwald> | ppl already have hackage credentials |
| 18:21:07 | <maerwald> | those same credentials have to work for the issue tracker |
| 18:21:14 | <maerwald> | no additional steps |
| 18:21:19 | <sm[m]> | sure, but hackage doesn't have this tool and it's a big job to build it |
| 18:21:48 | <maerwald> | how hard can that be... |
| 18:21:48 | <sm[m]> | it's possible to do this with low tech solutions too |
| 18:22:05 | <sm[m]> | should be easy right ?! |
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| 18:22:17 | <maerwald> | yeah, simple backend :) |
| 18:23:49 | <sm[m]> | we could ask a php dev for help. We'd be up and running in a day :) |
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| 18:24:27 | <monochrom> | That would make headline news. |
| 18:24:43 | <sm[m]> | yup, we'd get on HN front page |
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| 18:25:07 | <sm[m]> | and it would work, but it would require us to be rather humble |
| 18:25:36 | <sm[m]> | it would actually be a marketing masterstoke I think |
| 18:25:45 | <xerox_> | what does $mWNode.\ here https://pastebin.com/raw/TYJ0VDPg correspond to in here https://github.com/antalsz/urn-random/blob/master/src/Data/Urn/Internal.hs ? |
| 18:25:50 | <xerox_> | is it the pattern synonym? |
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| 18:29:07 | <monochrom> | I heard yesterday that \ refers to lambdas. In your case, the pattern defines a function too, that would be the lambda. |
| 18:30:06 | <xerox_> | how lucky, just yesterday! |
| 18:30:26 | <sm[m]> | maerwald, just curious, would you still not make use of github for haskell infrastructure if we had nightly data backups and a way for importing that elsewhere when necessary ? (per sclv) |
| 18:30:56 | <maerwald> | sm[m]: why do you thinkg ghc is on its own gitlab? |
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| 18:31:27 | <monochrom> | Plot twist: they go to gitlab, and use github for backup >:) |
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| 18:32:48 | <sclv> | the trustees repo is used to track migration issues already fwiw |
| 18:33:43 | <maerwald> | yeah, most ppl have never heard of it and 98% of maintainers aren't notified :) |
| 18:34:03 | <maerwald> | so it's a group of a few ppl manually writing patches and sending emails etc |
| 18:34:08 | <sclv> | it certainly lacks automation! |
| 18:34:16 | <maerwald> | that doesn't scale well, which is why I said hackage needs a bug tracker |
| 18:34:18 | <sclv> | building on matrix would be a way to improve this |
| 18:34:19 | <maerwald> | that is the automation |
| 18:34:34 | <sclv> | ok what is the difference between a hackage bugtracker and the existing tracker? |
| 18:34:38 | <sclv> | just moar links from hackage? |
| 18:34:58 | <maerwald> | sclv: 1) not proprietary, 2) better integrated with hackage, 3) no additional login credentials |
| 18:35:11 | <sm[m]> | matrix eh.. is matrix a separate codebase from hackage ? easier to deploy changes to perhaps ? |
| 18:35:22 | <sclv> | matrix is for the automation |
| 18:35:34 | <sclv> | i.e. sending notifications and perhaps creating issues |
| 18:35:50 | <sclv> | i agree not prop would be nice, the "integrated" thing is really a links question, easy to solve |
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| 18:36:00 | <sclv> | the creds i care less about tbqh |
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| 18:37:46 | <sclv> | btw sm[m] git-annex doesn't let you "import that elsewhere" nicely afaik? it would be great if it did! |
| 18:37:55 | <sclv> | it just ensures you have the data, which is in itself worthwhile |
| 18:39:06 | <sm[m]> | sclv: yes, actually recreating it as a working tools would be a big job. Not yet easy at all |
| 18:39:43 | <sm[m]> | hopefully before too long this kind of data will have a standard schema and multiple apps to load it into |
| 18:40:08 | <sclv> | i think that'll require more competition than i see existing anytime soon |
| 18:40:13 | <sclv> | laziness and lock-in are strong forces |
| 18:40:16 | <sm[m]> | though I guess that probably won;t happen until github screws up.. right |
| 18:40:38 | <sclv> | right, lol was going to say the same thing. M$ giving people a scare would really inject some urgency |
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| 18:40:47 | <maerwald> | github is just a source code mirror |
| 18:41:37 | <maerwald> | real haskellers use darcsden :p |
| 18:42:11 | <sm[m]> | darcs hub! darcsden is old hat :) |
| 18:43:40 | <sm[m]> | darcsweb.cgi -> patch-tag.com -> darcsden.com -> hub.darcs.net |
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| 18:43:55 | <maerwald> | I think the two main reasons for the success of github etc are: 1. free CI and 2. UI usability. Beating the UI usability is really hard |
| 18:44:21 | <sm[m]> | the CI is great, but just a recent addition |
| 18:44:34 | <sm[m]> | UI usability and network effect I'd say |
| 18:45:21 | <sclv> | out of the box, git leaves a lot to be desired. you really need some gui chrome to make it a nice workflow |
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| 18:46:31 | <sm[m]> | agreed. It first became usable/useful to me when I gathered a few decent command aliases in .gitconfig (then magit, IDEs etc.) |
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| 18:47:35 | <maerwald> | I only use tig |
| 18:48:11 | <sclv> | i think its as simple as the fact that the whole "PR" concept is fundamental to modern workflows, and doesn't exist natively in git proper at all |
| 18:48:56 | <sm[m]> | some say PRs are bad. I forget what the alternative is |
| 18:49:10 | <maerwald> | sm[m]: patches |
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| 18:49:26 | <maerwald> | PRs are pretty native |
| 18:49:31 | <sm[m]> | isn't a PR a patch plus notification ? |
| 18:49:58 | <geekosaur> | it's a patch implemented as a branch |
| 18:50:00 | <maerwald> | a PR can simple be an email (as was done by the linux workflow) giving you a link to a repo, info of branch name |
| 18:50:10 | <sm[m]> | I think we don't like github PRs because of all the ceremony involved - fork, branch, etc. |
| 18:50:10 | <maerwald> | no, PRs are not patches |
| 18:50:33 | <yushyin> | it even has a manpage (man git-request-pull) |
| 18:50:47 | <maerwald> | branches are not patches either |
| 18:50:50 | <sclv> | PRs being integrated with / coupled to discussion and intertwingled with issue tracking feels like it was a github innovation |
| 18:50:52 | <maerwald> | commits are not patches |
| 18:51:06 | <hyperisco> | patches are not patches either, if you really scrutinize it |
| 18:51:33 | <maerwald> | patch workflow can be done with git too (git send-email) |
| 18:51:38 | <maerwald> | but a PR is not that |
| 18:51:43 | <sclv> | no i've thought about it a lot and a patch is a patch |
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| 18:52:38 | <hyperisco> | I'm glad someone has looked into it for us |
| 18:52:53 | <davean> | sm[m]: git pull rrequests and github bull requests are somewhat different is one of the complaints |
| 18:53:01 | <maerwald> | and the advantage of PR workflow is, that you don't have to deal with patches |
| 18:53:10 | <maerwald> | you can just checkout out the branch and test |
| 18:53:14 | <maerwald> | with no applying of patches |
| 18:53:29 | <davean> | Right which was a git thing, but the way github does it mixed it with other things |
| 18:53:44 | <hyperisco> | "feature branch" |
| 18:54:06 | <davean> | no, it was litterly "git pull", not feature branches |
| 18:54:12 | <davean> | because git is desentralized |
| 18:54:38 | <davean> | see kernel.org |
| 18:55:07 | <hyperisco> | I have never worked with source control in a decentralised way |
| 18:55:19 | <davean> | I have, I much prefer it |
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| 18:55:37 | <maerwald> | it can be quite annoying wrt CI :) |
| 18:55:46 | <hyperisco> | makes sense for open source where everyone needs their own variants |
| 18:55:51 | <davean> | Ci is run differently for it |
| 18:56:09 | <davean> | if you try to fit CI as you expect for a centralized system on a distributed one, of course theres issues |
| 18:56:17 | <davean> | CI just looks entirely different |
| 18:56:32 | <davean> | I'll point out the commit IDs are still globally stable when distributed |
| 18:56:48 | <davean> | So its not even hard to do the CI for it |
| 18:57:06 | <maerwald> | e.g. my GHC PR failed, because I don't have permissions for some of the gitlab runners or something |
| 18:57:42 | <maerwald> | s/GHC/ci-images/ |
| 18:57:53 | <davean> | But you're sticking a centralized approach on a distirbuted solution to get that issue there |
| 18:58:09 | <davean> | Thats exactly why I said you couldn't bring that centralized mindset and get good results |
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| 18:58:17 | <maerwald> | I've never seen a decentralized CI workflow that works |
| 18:58:27 | <sm[m]> | what's the essence of "source control in a decentralised way", compared to github, davean ? More repos, hosted in more places ? |
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| 18:58:40 | <davean> | sm[m]: Everyone has their own seperate repos |
| 18:58:50 | <davean> | everything is pull based, not push based |
| 18:59:13 | <maerwald> | yeah, github doesn't have separate repos internally if you fork, so that was a common attack vector for various jokers |
| 18:59:31 | <maerwald> | so if you fork, make sure to not fork :p |
| 18:59:58 | <sclv> | there's a huge irony in that git was designed to be distributed, and the whole appeal of github is it recentralized everything |
| 19:00:34 | <davean> | sclv: Hum, thats why I don't use github isn't it? ;) |
| 19:01:03 | <sclv> | imho decenralized discussion is not a fully solved problem, i'll note |
| 19:01:18 | <yushyin> | ^ this |
| 19:01:22 | <maerwald> | sclv: yes, it doesn't work |
| 19:01:40 | <sm[m]> | davean: on github, everyone making pull requests has their own repo, and it's pull based, too |
| 19:01:42 | <maerwald> | that's why we have this mess of ecosystem migrations in haskell |
| 19:01:49 | <sm[m]> | at least, IME |
| 19:02:37 | <maerwald> | some ppl use github, some not, some only respond via emails |
| 19:02:58 | <maerwald> | it's impossible to coordinate anything |
| 19:03:06 | <davean> | sm[m]: no, it very much isn't |
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| 19:03:36 | <maerwald> | sm[m]: internally it's one repo if you fork |
| 19:03:42 | <davean> | Its not even interally |
| 19:03:46 | <maerwald> | the UI makes you think it's separate |
| 19:03:47 | <davean> | that shows up VERY clearly |
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| 19:03:53 | <davean> | And its very much push based |
| 19:04:09 | <sm[m]> | what do you mean by push based here ? |
| 19:04:14 | <davean> | I can see how you don't see that if you don't git hard, but if you git ... |
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| 19:15:42 | <monochrom> | If you own the repo, you push all the time, I know I do. |
| 19:17:24 | <monochrom> | I push from my computer to my github repo. |
| 19:17:59 | <maerwald> | the only time you don't push is when you work directly on the bare git repo, which you probably shouldn't |
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| 19:18:57 | <maerwald> | the only plague that github introduces is the merge button in the UI |
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| 19:19:25 | <maerwald> | that's what breaks all the original workflow (and also other things like proper gpg signatures) |
| 19:19:50 | <sm[m]> | I push from my machine to my github repo too. Does that make github push based ? I thought we were talking more about the collaboration flow |
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| 19:20:57 | <monochrom> | Alright, my workflow is push-based, and it's a very personal repo. |
| 19:22:07 | <maerwald> | though Linus said that github isn't radical enough with their usability UI... he wants a better online editor |
| 19:22:21 | <maerwald> | because that's the only reason he uses that website anyway |
| 19:22:36 | <yushyin> | haha |
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| 19:23:08 | <monochrom> | Yeah sounds like an oversimplified merge button is a sorry excuse for a merge-and-resolve-conflict editor. |
| 19:23:29 | <monochrom> | But let me have some fun here. |
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| 19:23:52 | <monochrom> | Back then I used RCS and then CVS. It was ci-based, and it was ci both ways. |
| 19:24:07 | <monochrom> | And back then "ci" meant "check in". And it was always snowing. |
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| 19:25:11 | <maerwald> | doing rebases against remote branches in git with large local branches is an insane task... you have to fix conflicts for every single commit and it's easy to lose track what's going on, what commit you're on etc |
| 19:25:21 | <maerwald> | the cli doesn't help much here |
| 19:25:33 | <maerwald> | github failed to do anything about that |
| 19:26:04 | <maerwald> | but these days everyone just does merges, including reverse merges |
| 19:26:29 | <monochrom> | Only a 60-inch 4K screen helps. So that you can see all of the mess on your table. |
| 19:26:50 | <maerwald> | That's when I go home and eat Ramen instead |
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| 19:27:19 | <maerwald> | or dream what if darcs had won the VCS race |
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| 19:28:06 | <maerwald> | also: https://github.com/mhagger/git-imerge |
| 19:28:13 | <maerwald> | good example why git can be too hard :) |
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| 19:39:13 | <hololeap> | git-cola's pretty nice |
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| 19:39:35 | <hololeap> | not sure if it would help in that case |
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| 19:42:41 | <maerwald> | one thing is: whenever I run `git mergetool`, I have to figure out which of those 3 sides is what exactly |
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| 19:44:52 | <sm[m]> | maerwald: if you want to feel better about git merge conflicts, try darcs' for a bit! |
| 19:45:16 | <maerwald> | I don't even understand the concepts of darcs :) |
| 19:45:25 | <sm[m]> | darcs just has no idea which side is which :) |
| 19:46:32 | <maerwald> | https://shafiul.github.io/gitbook/1_the_git_object_model.html this is the only thing you need to know about git |
| 19:47:04 | <maerwald> | with darcs, I don't know where to start |
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| 19:49:45 | <sm[m]> | Oh darcs is pretty easy - just "it'll munge my text edits together in any order as long as they don't overlap" |
| 19:50:19 | <haskellstudent> | fresheyeball: i finished my miso vs reflex vs shpadoinkle evaluation. i spent the last week learning the basics and reading the todomvc code in all 3 and implemented the same small program (this https://i.imgur.com/YbTvJoB.png) in each. its the same in miso and shpadoinkle, but in reflex i could not figure out how to do the add/remove page buttons which add and remove "pages" and buttons at runtime even after an entire day. i am |
| 19:50:19 | <haskellstudent> | most pleased with spadoinkle, it seems like the most elegant and straightforward way to do it and i had a great experience with it so far so thank you for creating it and recommending it to me! |
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| 19:50:43 | <sm[m]> | and I can push/pull those around to other repos. All you need to know |
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| 19:50:46 | <haskellstudent> | if anyone is interested, this is the code for the same thing (minus add/remove page) in reflex for the 3 libs: |
| 19:50:47 | <haskellstudent> | shpadoinkle https://pastebin.com/Z9dkdw3e |
| 19:50:47 | <haskellstudent> | miso https://pastebin.com/HA225uWC |
| 19:50:47 | <haskellstudent> | reflex https://pastebin.com/HLRM5RMA |
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| 20:21:03 | <dcbdan> | is there a debugger / program stepper? i.e. walk through the values of variables in a program step by step? Kinda like gdb, but with haskell values? Right now I make a lot of print statements, is that un-advisable? |
| 20:21:26 | <nut> | my algorithm needs to modify elements in an arry often, do people use mutable vectors in such situations or stick to immutable vectors? |
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| 20:21:52 | <nut> | dcbdan: ghci, the repl is a debugger |
| 20:22:25 | <nut> | dcbdan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7QZwH_844s&t=145s |
| 20:22:51 | <nut> | dcbdan: check that youtube tutorial, it's the best |
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| 20:26:40 | <dcbdan> | ahhhhh, I had no idea! that's good to know |
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| 20:30:15 | <sm[m]> | dcbdan: let us know how you get on with the one in ghci. It's not used much, perhaps it should be used more. Print statements are used a lot and there's nothing wrong with that, use Debug.Trace |
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| 20:38:15 | <dcbdan> | I just kinda assumed that something like Debug.Trace wouldn't exist |
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| 20:38:37 | <dcbdan> | since as the docs say, it isn't refer transparent |
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| 20:54:46 | <koz_> | nut: Do you have the modifications 'all at once', and then use the array immutably? |
| 20:54:53 | <koz_> | Are the modifications in fairly random places? |
| 20:55:02 | <koz_> | Or, perhaps more concretely: what are you trying to do? |
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| 20:57:12 | <nut> | koz_: I'm reading a string and test if characters repeat. for this the easiest is to use array of bools and toggle the flag |
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| 20:57:32 | <koz_> | The solution to this is 'use a Map'. |
| 20:57:38 | <koz_> | Or HashMap, either or. |
| 20:57:50 | <koz_> | Zero arrays or mutation needed, probably faster too. |
| 20:58:19 | <nut> | zero arrays? |
| 20:58:26 | <koz_> | As in, you don't need any arrays. |
| 20:58:35 | <nut> | i see |
| 20:58:59 | <nut> | I'm just so accustomed to imperative arrays |
| 20:59:13 | <koz_> | Get un-accustomed. |
| 20:59:22 | <koz_> | You're in a different environment, it requires different tools. |
| 20:59:40 | <koz_> | Otherwise you'll be stuck forever in XY problem hell. |
| 21:00:17 | <nut> | I do realize that Data.Map could be the one because it offers O(log n) lookup and 'modification' |
| 21:00:21 | <monochrom> | It is possible that the mutable array of bool may be faster than the Map (balanced binary search tree). But the other way round is also possible. Perhaps benchmark them. |
| 21:00:40 | <koz_> | monochrom: If you use HashMap, I'll be _very_ surprised if a mutable array wins. |
| 21:00:44 | <nut> | by modification i mean update the Data.Map value |
| 21:00:57 | <monochrom> | Don't forget that you also have IntMap and unordered-container's HashMap to choose from. Moar indecisions. |
| 21:01:05 | <monochrom> | Also, s/Map/Set/ |
| 21:01:22 | <koz_> | monochrom: It depends whether you wanna know which are duplicated, not whether there's a dup or not. |
| 21:01:38 | <koz_> | If you only need to know if dupes are present, you just use 'hashNub' and do a size comparison. |
| 21:02:08 | <koz_> | Either way, if confronted with either of those problems, mutable arrays aren't even the _third_ thing I'd reach for. |
| 21:02:24 | <nut> | wow |
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| 21:02:43 | <nut> | mutable vectors are a bit difficult to use |
| 21:02:46 | <nut> | for beginners |
| 21:02:48 | <nut> | at least |
| 21:02:53 | <koz_> | They're more involved. |
| 21:03:10 | <koz_> | Since you need to know a) what ST is and how to use it, and b) why GHC occasionally fails to infer stuff with runST. |
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| 21:03:19 | <koz_> | (at least b) is going away once quick-look lands) |
| 21:03:55 | <koz_> | a), combined with the fact that mutable arrays often don't offer any improvement in perf (and indeed can make it _worse_ sometimes) is why I don't recommend reaching for them in the first instance. |
| 21:04:06 | <koz_> | It's a lot of additional ceremony for.. no reason. |
| 21:04:10 | <nut> | Those two reasons are enough to push beginners towards Maps |
| 21:04:32 | <koz_> | Immutable array/vector is also a good choice in many cases. |
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| 21:04:45 | <koz_> | Heck, 'generate' alone obviates the need for mutation at least half the time. |
| 21:04:49 | <koz_> | (and 'generateM') |
| 21:05:10 | <nut> | numerical analysis or number crunching? |
| 21:05:24 | <koz_> | Depends on the problem. |
| 21:05:28 | <koz_> | I can't generalize for whole fields. |
| 21:05:38 | <koz_> | Your choice of data structure is highly problem-specific. |
| 21:06:26 | <monochrom> | Immutable vector shines when either it's write-only-read-many-times (e.g., dynamic programming) or the new vector is a streaming transform of the old vector. |
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| 21:06:44 | <monochrom> | err write-once-read-many-times |
| 21:07:04 | <koz_> | I'd supplement by saying 'it also depends how the vector is produced'. |
| 21:07:18 | <koz_> | If you can phrase your construction in terms of 'generate' or 'generateM'? You win very big. |
| 21:07:27 | <monochrom> | Yeah, that. |
| 21:07:29 | <koz_> | (and they're surprisingly powerful primitives) |
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| 21:07:57 | <koz_> | I've had at least two cases in recent memory where someone tried to do something gory with arrays, and it ran terribly; upon further inspection, what they wanted was 'generate'. |
| 21:07:57 | <nut> | How do you 'write' once immutable vectors? |
| 21:08:08 | <koz_> | nut: You don't - you use a construction function which builds them. |
| 21:08:10 | <koz_> | (like 'generate') |
| 21:08:18 | <monochrom> | The same way you write-once a binary tree |
| 21:08:19 | <nut> | i see |
| 21:08:51 | <monochrom> | The same way you set up "final variables" in Java. |
| 21:09:08 | <nut> | that's indeed a new idea for me |
| 21:09:19 | <koz_> | nut: It takes adjustment. |
| 21:09:33 | <koz_> | But trying to hammer the square peg of mutation into every possible Haskell hole won't end well. |
| 21:09:45 | <koz_> | A good practice - start by doing _everything_ immutably. |
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| 21:10:07 | <koz_> | You can always change it later if you find it's slow. However, you probably won't. |
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| 21:12:30 | <dcbdan> | what is 'generate' , 'generateM' ? |
| 21:12:44 | <koz_> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector-0.12.3.0/docs/Data-Vector.html#v:generate |
| 21:12:50 | <koz_> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector-0.12.3.0/docs/Data-Vector.html#v:generateM |
| 21:13:27 | <dcbdan> | got it |
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| 21:15:06 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | dcbdan: regarding a question about debugging: there is a ghc-vis too |
| 21:15:33 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | not sure if it's convenient to debug with, but looks cool |
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| 21:16:49 | <dcbdan> | look at the image about 3/4s down: http://felsin9.de/nnis/ghc-vis/#basic-usage |
| 21:16:58 | <dcbdan> | kinda scary, kinda beautiful |
| 21:17:37 | <dcbdan> | ^ minoru_shiraeesh |
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| 21:21:26 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | dcbdan: an image like that may seem intimidating, that's for sure |
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| 21:23:20 | <koala_man> | . o O (How do they expect me to find a specific image in that long p..oh I see) |
| 21:23:21 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | here is a video that shows an example |
| 21:23:23 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | Screencast: The Haskell heap and the infinite list of primes |
| 21:23:28 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | https://youtu.be/UPy7TXgrK1A |
| 21:24:16 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | *an example of how to interpret images in ghc-vis |
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| 21:32:05 | <dcbdan> | that's pretty neat. I assume ghc-vis can show Show instances |
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| 23:21:21 | <Aftahill> | sup |
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| 23:23:21 | <HannaM> | earth is still revolving .. |
| 23:23:33 | <HannaM> | unexpected, but true |
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All times are in UTC on 2021-04-08.