Home freenode/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2021-04-11 (freenode/#haskell)

00:00:04 <justsomeguy> What would a prefix operator look like?
00:00:33 <justsomeguy> Kind of like a function with symbols in the identifier?
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00:02:45 <DigitalKiwi> --koz_
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00:08:06 <koz_> I'm imagining something like a prefix version of 'complement'.
00:08:22 <koz_> So instead of writing 'complement foo', it'd be like, '.~. foo' or something.
00:08:33 <koz_> But now that I look at it, I can see the issue, lol.
00:10:36 <c_wraith> well, inasmuch as Haskell supports postfix operators, it supports prefix operators that return a function. :P
00:11:29 <koz_> c_wraith: Wait I don't understand?
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00:13:03 <c_wraith> ghc has an extension for postfix operators... that work by slightly liberalizing the section rules such that (foo@#%) is parsed as a section, but need not return a function.
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00:13:29 <c_wraith> You could always main ($*#foo) an expression now. it just has to return a function :)
00:13:34 <c_wraith> *make
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00:15:02 <koz_> OK, thanks.
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01:21:41 <dmwit> Okay, hallway test: I write `type family Foo a = r | r -> a; type instance Foo (a -> b) = a -> Foo b`. Do you expect this to work or no?
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01:23:12 <dmwit> Eh, never mind. I just read the full error more carefully and now I feel silly, because it tells me how to make this work.
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01:23:27 <dmwit> ghc++
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04:09:20 <iridesce> i once saw this website full of haskell and cat memes, does anyone happen to know what i'm talking about
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04:13:34 ski . o O ( <https://lambdacats.github.io/> )
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09:33:08 <puzzleheaded> Hi, I was wondering, of the Arduino/Processing procedures setup and loop (or draw for the latter), would it be possible to express both those procedures as a single monad?
09:34:12 <puzzleheaded> i.e., to express that code in a loop has some simple set up dependency, like setting a GPIO pin to output?
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09:38:05 <puzzleheaded> I've tried doing that, but I get stuck on implementing (>>=)...
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09:48:42 <puzzleheaded> Or is that an arrow?
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12:52:11 <hololeap> d34df00d: about your question from yesterday. i realized that what you're probably looking for is `StateT s (MaybeT m) a`, which would expand to `s -> m (Maybe (a, s))`. this encodes the idea that you have two choices: your value 'a' _and_ a new state have been produced, or nothing at all.
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12:52:59 <olligobber> is there a command (maybe in cabal) to resolve all the imports and make one big haskell file only depending on prelude
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12:53:45 <hololeap> with `MaybeT (StateT s m) a`, you could have this produced without any complaints: m (Nothing, newState)
12:54:25 <Philonous> olligobber, You mean inline all your dependencies? Not that I know of, and I'm not sure how that would work, considering some packages have sources written in C
12:54:28 <hololeap> which would still short circuit due to the way MaybeT works, but might not be something you want
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12:55:25 <olligobber> Philonous, well, maybe just some dependencies? I need to submit a single source file
12:55:50 <olligobber> but the place it will be compiled doesn't have all the dependencies (one in particular which i wrote)
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12:57:52 <hololeap> can the source file be a zip or tar.gz ? :p
12:58:26 <Philonous> olligobber, Template Haskell also means this doesn't work in general. (It's quite possible that someone wrote a "good enough" script for your use case, but I wouldn't have heard of it)
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12:58:51 <olligobber> nah, has to be a .hs
12:58:59 <olligobber> and yeah im using template haskell
12:59:31 <hololeap> is this for a class?
12:59:35 <olligobber> no, for fun
12:59:47 <olligobber> I wrote a very inefficient addition program
12:59:53 <hololeap> then why the arbitrary restrictions?
13:01:18 <Philonous> olligobber, TH can't use top-level definitions from the same file, only imported, so your idea might fall apart right there
13:01:51 <Philonous> OTOH the script could just run the TH and splice the output, so all is not lost.
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13:02:09 <olligobber> yeah, that's what I want it to do
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13:13:37 <olligobber> I guess I don't really need to do it
13:13:50 <olligobber> I know it's just going to get TLE or MLE
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13:14:03 <olligobber> given it's taken 30 minutes to add 77 to 777
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14:04:45 <olligobber> oh, I killed 77+777 after an hour
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14:07:48 <maralorn> I have a library that returns a Prelude.undefined in some cases and I can‘t do anything about it on the short term. Is there something like defaultIfUndefined :: a -> a -> a to recover from that?
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14:15:23 <hpc> maralorn: the spoon package, maybe?
14:16:05 <hpc> maralorn: or lub, if you want to handle more than just exception-y bottoms
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14:50:58 <kuribas> is there a way to generate javascript?
14:51:02 <kuribas> I wanted to use Aeson, but that doesn't allow inline javascript...
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14:51:45 <kuribas> Some hack on top of Aeson is also possible.
14:52:08 <kuribas> Maybe some clever search replace in the JSON...
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15:01:22 <__minoru__shirae> kuribas: what happens to the generated javascript after it is generated?
15:01:35 <kuribas> __minoru__shirae: rendered on a webpage
15:01:58 <__minoru__shirae> do you bundle all the javascript into one file, or do you add each script to the page manually
15:02:26 <__minoru__shirae> because you can simply create a script and add it to the page manually
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15:03:29 <kuribas> __minoru__shirae: sadly it has to be in the json
15:03:42 <kuribas> __minoru__shirae: http://www.alpacajs.org/docs/api/events.html
15:04:03 <kuribas> shatters my idea of a nice declarative UI :-(
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15:10:36 <__minoru__shirae> kuribas: why generate javascript?
15:10:57 <kuribas> __minoru__shirae: did you click the link?
15:11:02 <__minoru__shirae> yes
15:11:10 <kuribas> there you see the javascript?
15:11:31 <__minoru__shirae> I mean, you want something like macros for js?
15:11:49 <__minoru__shirae> yes, I see the js there
15:12:22 <kuribas> no, I want to generate the javascript
15:12:54 <kuribas> I am making combinators for generating these config.
15:13:10 <kuribas> Which was nice using Aeson, but the Javascript is problematic.
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15:15:14 <__minoru__shirae> you can parameterize some js function with something that changes and then call that function with different parameters
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15:16:17 <__minoru__shirae> I mean, instead of generating "x + y", you can create function plus(x, y) and then call it
15:16:37 <__minoru__shirae> that's why I'm asking: why generate js?
15:17:09 <kuribas> I don't how that solves anything...
15:19:59 <kuribas> maybe I'll generate some pattern, like "$postRenderFunction$", then replace it in the generated ByteString
15:22:41 <kuribas> I could use language-ecmascript-0.19.1.0, but that's not very convenient.
15:27:16 <kuribas> oh wait, I can separate the javascript and JSON...
15:27:52 <kuribas> then I generate the separately, and just use string concatination...
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15:36:15 <__minoru__shirae> so you want to generate "json with functions" using something on top of json converter library
15:36:40 <kuribas> yeah
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15:39:35 <__minoru__shirae> I doubt that those libraries provide an API for inlining functions into json
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15:41:05 <__minoru__shirae> what if you approach the problem from the other end?
15:43:02 <__minoru__shirae> you can create some translation layer to js, so that you send proper json and then translate it to whatever alpaca wants
15:43:05 <kuribas> __minoru__shirae: I'll use ByteString.++ :-)
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15:45:49 <__minoru__shirae> I mean, instead of calling "$("#field1").alpaca({"some json with functions": ""})"
15:46:11 <__minoru__shirae> you call $("#field1").alpaca(translate({"some proper json":""}))
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15:46:52 <__minoru__shirae> the difference is calling "translate" function
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15:48:54 <kuribas> ah I see what you mean.
15:49:05 <kuribas> yeah, that could work
15:49:40 <kuribas> I could separate the JSON as much as possible with some custom javascript.
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15:51:59 <kuribas> Then I never need to generate javascript, I just make a single javascript function, which I put into a haskell string.
15:54:00 <kuribas> That soulds like the best plan.
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18:05:52 <hololeap> is there a compatibility layer between (MonadBase IO)/(MonadBaseControl IO) and (MonadIO/MonadUnliftIO)? i ask because i'm writing a library using the former, but i don't want to alienate users who use the latter
18:07:03 <hololeap> i also don't want to alienate users who use The Ladder
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18:28:32 <solvr> What if Haskell made a few small concessions so the general audience could like it more.
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18:29:08 <maerwald> solvr: like?
18:30:08 <thblt> I vote GOTO
18:30:14 <MarcelineVQ> concede that python is the superior language
18:30:37 <solvr> Something like Erlang's process dictionary. And something like Erlang's processes
18:30:43 <solvr> so it looks more OOP
18:31:15 <MarcelineVQ> processes are cool, cloud-haskell has a bit of that iirc
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18:31:32 <MarcelineVQ> *Cloud Haskell (distributed-process)
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18:36:42 <maerwald> isn't that dead?
18:37:04 <geekosaur> effectively
18:38:56 <MarcelineVQ> yet with untold aeons even death may die
18:39:06 <MarcelineVQ> e.g. there's also the option to compile _to_ erlang
18:39:31 <solvr> What about compiling to JS
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18:40:47 <MarcelineVQ> ghcjs is the most successful effort for doing that in haskell
18:41:23 <solvr> I guess Haskell will never be very popular then
18:41:58 <juri_> I hope people will eventually get tired of writing bad imperitive code.
18:42:04 <maerwald> very popular means you're flooded with mediocre library maintainers, as can be seen on npm
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18:42:56 <solvr> juri_, some imperative code is most suitable between boundaries
18:43:21 <maerwald> what's wrong with imperative code
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18:44:21 <juri_> it can be useful, but it can also be completely horrible. i like writing pure code, with a small kernel of imperitive code.
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18:44:37 <maerwald> that sounds like taste, not an actual engineering concern
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18:47:15 <juri_> the ability to reason about code is an engineering concern. pure code is easier to reason about, which tends to lead to better, more maintainable code.
18:48:14 <maerwald> Don't think that's true. The problem is shared mutable state. You can tackle that in imperative languages too, see rust.
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18:55:17 <Lycurgus> what is "pure code"?
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18:56:04 <Lycurgus> the instructions only in a code stream?
18:56:43 <dcbdan> me thinks: code that has no side effects. As in, can be expressed like a mathematical function
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18:57:01 <maerwald> simplified: pure code is code where the evaluation strategy doesn't affect semantics
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18:58:15 <Lycurgus> so it's referential transparency
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18:59:00 <maerwald> the point is that it's not defined for execution
18:59:03 <Lycurgus> which sounds like a thing where as "pure oode" sounds like bs
18:59:33 <maerwald> so the fact that haskell is pure doesn't actually give you much, because you can pass around IORefs like a madman, can you not?
18:59:35 <Lycurgus> asif pure code lacked smells
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19:00:18 <Lycurgus> asif the pure were the clean
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20:39:20 <monochrom> I'm done with letting solvr waste our time every few days with their "haskell should be more mutable" drivel.
20:39:47 <monochrom> Next time it will be a ban.
20:40:48 <maerwald> oh, was it supposed to be a troll attempt?
20:41:23 <monochrom> I can't tell the difference between trolling and lunacy.
20:41:42 <monochrom> But it's drivel either way.
20:42:05 <monochrom> And it's repeating offence.
20:42:13 <monochrom> s/repeating/repeated/
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20:43:11 <maerwald> Popularity is a double edged sword anyway... too much and you have too many mediocre maintainers, too little and you have no ecosystem.
20:43:35 <monochrom> Repeated offenders and lenient liberals alike complain about my bans because they don't have state to remember that I don't ban until I see repeaated offense.
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20:44:08 <monochrom> Oh popularity is just their newest excuse.
20:44:45 <monochrom> Previously they cited other excuses to demand mutability such as "interface boundary" and "data structure efficiency".
20:45:46 <monochrom> and ""Functional programming is to turn on the light, you need to rebuild your house"
20:46:27 <monochrom> and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/haskell/21.04.06 search for <solvr>
20:46:54 <maerwald> haha
20:47:01 <maerwald> that's a good one
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20:48:42 <maerwald> maybe it's sophisticated critique about the lack of modular and composable effects systems
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20:49:22 <maerwald> well, or not...
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20:51:51 <monochrom> I once saw a genuinely sophisticated critique. It was from one of the Oz people IIRC. I say that it is genuinely sophisticated because it included a convincing, concrete example.
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20:53:14 <monochrom> The difference between genuine sophisticated critique and lunacy is that the lunatic one just keeps talking and keeps talking bigger and bigger.
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20:53:43 <monochrom> Equivalently if it's indistinguishable from a Markov-Mealy machine then it's lunacy.
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20:53:53 <monochrom> i.e., armchair philosopher
20:53:58 <maerwald> I didn't find it disruptive until now, but I only noticed them today
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20:57:44 <d34df00d> hololeap: oh, right.
20:57:55 <d34df00d> Commuting monads is hard! Let me try to internalize that.
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21:05:15 <m_miro> Excuse me, is it possible to have a data type that contains a definition like:
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21:05:18 <m_miro> data Custom = Custom Custom | Something
21:05:40 <m_miro> and then have a variable  like:
21:05:57 <m_miro> myVariable = Something Something?
21:06:21 <dcbdan> Do you mean myVariable = Custom Something ?
21:06:49 <dcbdan> Something Something does not work, because the Something constructor is just of type Custom
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21:07:10 <m_miro> Oh I see
21:07:24 <monochrom> Perhaps please don't use the same "Custom" name for two unrelated things.
21:07:58 <maerwald> data Custom = MkCustom Custom | MkSomething
21:08:10 <dcbdan> ^one 'Custom' is a constructor, the other is a type
21:08:16 <m_miro> So if I wanted Something Something I'd have to define Something as Custom?
21:08:23 <maerwald> oh dear
21:08:29 <maerwald> I'm confused now too :D
21:08:40 <monochrom> What is "Something Something" supposed to mean?
21:08:51 <monochrom> And why is it so necessary?
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21:09:00 <maerwald> it sounds like an assignment
21:09:17 <maerwald> define Something Something
21:09:49 <m_miro> "Something Something" is supposed to be to "commands" in sequence
21:09:52 <maerwald> Maybe better start with Motivation?
21:09:55 <m_miro> it is an assignment
21:10:19 <monochrom> OK I want to see the assignment handout verbatim uncut unabridged uninterpreted.
21:10:47 <maerwald> just because you want to reuse it :p
21:11:00 <monochrom> Nah.
21:11:27 <monochrom> It is because every student misinterprets the assignment handout.
21:11:47 <monochrom> And/or create a creative chain of XY problems out of it.
21:11:57 <monochrom> here "creative" is derogative.
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21:14:11 <m_miro> here's the assignment
21:14:12 <m_miro> https://imgur.com/a/aflD108
21:14:23 <m_miro> oh wait it cut it
21:14:56 <m_miro> https://imgur.com/a/FZpqSPt
21:16:15 <monochrom> I trust that you already understand that you use one data constructor to stand for, for example, "moveto".
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21:16:36 <monochrom> In the case of "cmd; cmd", you use one data constructor to represent the ";".
21:18:15 <monochrom> I trust that you have seen examples where you use "data E = I Integer | Add E E" because it represents "expr ::= integer | expr + expr", "Add" stands for the "+" there.
21:18:23 <monochrom> So it's similar for ";".
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21:18:56 <m_miro> Yes I used one data constructor  to stand for "moveto"
21:19:44 <m_miro> I didn't think of representing the ";" as a data constructor
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21:21:17 <m_miro> I've seen example like the one you posted it just didn't think to use it for ";"
21:21:54 <monochrom> It's alright, C and Python brainwashed you to not realize it.
21:22:11 <m_miro> What do you mean?
21:22:29 <monochrom> Pascal did it right. Pascal's semicolon is between two commands.
21:22:56 <monochrom> You write like "x:=1 ; y:=2 ; z:=x+y", not "x:=1 ; y:=2 ; z:=x+y;"
21:23:52 <monochrom> The semantic difference is huge. Pascal reminds you that there is a binary operator for sequential composition, it is a binary operator.
21:25:38 <sm2n> confusingly, C has a binary operator for sequential composition (,)
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21:25:51 <sm2n> statement-oriented languages are just weird
21:26:09 <monochrom> Sapir-Worf would be proud.
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21:31:45 <m_miro> im not seeing the difference
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21:32:04 <m_miro> is it the "x+y" and the "x+y;"
21:32:43 <monochrom> OK, "cmd1 ; cmd2" vs "cmd1 ; cmd2 ;"
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21:33:20 <monochrom> If I expressed adding two numbers as "1 + 2 +" people would say I'm crazy.
21:33:42 <thblt> Rust has something like that. `cmd1 ; cmd2 ;` evals to (), but `cmd1 ; cmd2` eval to the result of cmd2
21:33:43 <monochrom> And that's what people decided to do with sequential-composing two jobs.
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21:35:51 <d34df00d> Is there any channel specifically dedicated to numeric haskell in general or repa in particular?
21:35:55 <d34df00d> Or best to shoot questions here?
21:36:03 <m_miro> so I see the difference, but I don't see its importance
21:37:10 <monochrom> The importance is between "I think I'll represent it as Seq Cmd Cmd" and "I think I'll represent it as Cmd Cmd".
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21:46:35 <m_miro> oh i think i get it now
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21:47:34 <m_miro> the ";" isnt being used as way to end a "command" but to signal that another "command" is going to be used afterwards
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21:47:40 <m_miro> am i understanding correctly?
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22:37:25 <bradparker> joel135: Sorry about that. That motivating example at the beginning is really poorly explained. All the other code examples are in a gist mentioned at the end of the article (https://gist.github.com/bradparker/205a8ff1f6bcbc9a2d3249e1d8ba5af1#file-lens-hs). That 'json' QuasiQuoter is available from the HSpec WAI JSON package (http://hackage.haskell.org/package/hspec-wai-json).
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All times are in UTC on 2021-04-11.