Logs on 2021-04-11 (freenode/#haskell)
| 00:00:04 | <justsomeguy> | What would a prefix operator look like? |
| 00:00:33 | <justsomeguy> | Kind of like a function with symbols in the identifier? |
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| 00:02:45 | <DigitalKiwi> | --koz_ |
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| 00:08:06 | <koz_> | I'm imagining something like a prefix version of 'complement'. |
| 00:08:22 | <koz_> | So instead of writing 'complement foo', it'd be like, '.~. foo' or something. |
| 00:08:33 | <koz_> | But now that I look at it, I can see the issue, lol. |
| 00:10:36 | <c_wraith> | well, inasmuch as Haskell supports postfix operators, it supports prefix operators that return a function. :P |
| 00:11:29 | <koz_> | c_wraith: Wait I don't understand? |
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| 00:13:03 | <c_wraith> | ghc has an extension for postfix operators... that work by slightly liberalizing the section rules such that (foo@#%) is parsed as a section, but need not return a function. |
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| 00:13:29 | <c_wraith> | You could always main ($*#foo) an expression now. it just has to return a function :) |
| 00:13:34 | <c_wraith> | *make |
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| 00:15:02 | <koz_> | OK, thanks. |
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| 01:21:41 | <dmwit> | Okay, hallway test: I write `type family Foo a = r | r -> a; type instance Foo (a -> b) = a -> Foo b`. Do you expect this to work or no? |
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| 01:23:12 | <dmwit> | Eh, never mind. I just read the full error more carefully and now I feel silly, because it tells me how to make this work. |
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| 01:23:27 | <dmwit> | ghc++ |
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| 04:09:20 | <iridesce> | i once saw this website full of haskell and cat memes, does anyone happen to know what i'm talking about |
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| 04:13:34 | ski | . o O ( <https://lambdacats.github.io/> ) |
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| 09:33:08 | <puzzleheaded> | Hi, I was wondering, of the Arduino/Processing procedures setup and loop (or draw for the latter), would it be possible to express both those procedures as a single monad? |
| 09:34:12 | <puzzleheaded> | i.e., to express that code in a loop has some simple set up dependency, like setting a GPIO pin to output? |
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| 09:38:05 | <puzzleheaded> | I've tried doing that, but I get stuck on implementing (>>=)... |
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| 09:48:42 | <puzzleheaded> | Or is that an arrow? |
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| 12:52:11 | <hololeap> | d34df00d: about your question from yesterday. i realized that what you're probably looking for is `StateT s (MaybeT m) a`, which would expand to `s -> m (Maybe (a, s))`. this encodes the idea that you have two choices: your value 'a' _and_ a new state have been produced, or nothing at all. |
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| 12:52:59 | <olligobber> | is there a command (maybe in cabal) to resolve all the imports and make one big haskell file only depending on prelude |
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| 12:53:45 | <hololeap> | with `MaybeT (StateT s m) a`, you could have this produced without any complaints: m (Nothing, newState) |
| 12:54:25 | <Philonous> | olligobber, You mean inline all your dependencies? Not that I know of, and I'm not sure how that would work, considering some packages have sources written in C |
| 12:54:28 | <hololeap> | which would still short circuit due to the way MaybeT works, but might not be something you want |
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| 12:55:25 | <olligobber> | Philonous, well, maybe just some dependencies? I need to submit a single source file |
| 12:55:50 | <olligobber> | but the place it will be compiled doesn't have all the dependencies (one in particular which i wrote) |
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| 12:57:52 | <hololeap> | can the source file be a zip or tar.gz ? :p |
| 12:58:26 | <Philonous> | olligobber, Template Haskell also means this doesn't work in general. (It's quite possible that someone wrote a "good enough" script for your use case, but I wouldn't have heard of it) |
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| 12:58:51 | <olligobber> | nah, has to be a .hs |
| 12:58:59 | <olligobber> | and yeah im using template haskell |
| 12:59:31 | <hololeap> | is this for a class? |
| 12:59:35 | <olligobber> | no, for fun |
| 12:59:47 | <olligobber> | I wrote a very inefficient addition program |
| 12:59:53 | <hololeap> | then why the arbitrary restrictions? |
| 13:01:18 | <Philonous> | olligobber, TH can't use top-level definitions from the same file, only imported, so your idea might fall apart right there |
| 13:01:51 | <Philonous> | OTOH the script could just run the TH and splice the output, so all is not lost. |
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| 13:02:09 | <olligobber> | yeah, that's what I want it to do |
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| 13:13:37 | <olligobber> | I guess I don't really need to do it |
| 13:13:50 | <olligobber> | I know it's just going to get TLE or MLE |
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| 13:14:03 | <olligobber> | given it's taken 30 minutes to add 77 to 777 |
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| 14:04:45 | <olligobber> | oh, I killed 77+777 after an hour |
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| 14:07:48 | <maralorn> | I have a library that returns a Prelude.undefined in some cases and I can‘t do anything about it on the short term. Is there something like defaultIfUndefined :: a -> a -> a to recover from that? |
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| 14:15:23 | <hpc> | maralorn: the spoon package, maybe? |
| 14:16:05 | <hpc> | maralorn: or lub, if you want to handle more than just exception-y bottoms |
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| 14:50:58 | <kuribas> | is there a way to generate javascript? |
| 14:51:02 | <kuribas> | I wanted to use Aeson, but that doesn't allow inline javascript... |
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| 14:51:45 | <kuribas> | Some hack on top of Aeson is also possible. |
| 14:52:08 | <kuribas> | Maybe some clever search replace in the JSON... |
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| 15:01:22 | <__minoru__shirae> | kuribas: what happens to the generated javascript after it is generated? |
| 15:01:35 | <kuribas> | __minoru__shirae: rendered on a webpage |
| 15:01:58 | <__minoru__shirae> | do you bundle all the javascript into one file, or do you add each script to the page manually |
| 15:02:26 | <__minoru__shirae> | because you can simply create a script and add it to the page manually |
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| 15:03:29 | <kuribas> | __minoru__shirae: sadly it has to be in the json |
| 15:03:42 | <kuribas> | __minoru__shirae: http://www.alpacajs.org/docs/api/events.html |
| 15:04:03 | <kuribas> | shatters my idea of a nice declarative UI :-( |
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| 15:10:36 | <__minoru__shirae> | kuribas: why generate javascript? |
| 15:10:57 | <kuribas> | __minoru__shirae: did you click the link? |
| 15:11:02 | <__minoru__shirae> | yes |
| 15:11:10 | <kuribas> | there you see the javascript? |
| 15:11:31 | <__minoru__shirae> | I mean, you want something like macros for js? |
| 15:11:49 | <__minoru__shirae> | yes, I see the js there |
| 15:12:22 | <kuribas> | no, I want to generate the javascript |
| 15:12:54 | <kuribas> | I am making combinators for generating these config. |
| 15:13:10 | <kuribas> | Which was nice using Aeson, but the Javascript is problematic. |
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| 15:15:14 | <__minoru__shirae> | you can parameterize some js function with something that changes and then call that function with different parameters |
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| 15:16:17 | <__minoru__shirae> | I mean, instead of generating "x + y", you can create function plus(x, y) and then call it |
| 15:16:37 | <__minoru__shirae> | that's why I'm asking: why generate js? |
| 15:17:09 | <kuribas> | I don't how that solves anything... |
| 15:19:59 | <kuribas> | maybe I'll generate some pattern, like "$postRenderFunction$", then replace it in the generated ByteString |
| 15:22:41 | <kuribas> | I could use language-ecmascript-0.19.1.0, but that's not very convenient. |
| 15:27:16 | <kuribas> | oh wait, I can separate the javascript and JSON... |
| 15:27:52 | <kuribas> | then I generate the separately, and just use string concatination... |
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| 15:36:15 | <__minoru__shirae> | so you want to generate "json with functions" using something on top of json converter library |
| 15:36:40 | <kuribas> | yeah |
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| 15:39:35 | <__minoru__shirae> | I doubt that those libraries provide an API for inlining functions into json |
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| 15:41:05 | <__minoru__shirae> | what if you approach the problem from the other end? |
| 15:43:02 | <__minoru__shirae> | you can create some translation layer to js, so that you send proper json and then translate it to whatever alpaca wants |
| 15:43:05 | <kuribas> | __minoru__shirae: I'll use ByteString.++ :-) |
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| 15:45:49 | <__minoru__shirae> | I mean, instead of calling "$("#field1").alpaca({"some json with functions": ""})" |
| 15:46:11 | <__minoru__shirae> | you call $("#field1").alpaca(translate({"some proper json":""})) |
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| 15:46:52 | <__minoru__shirae> | the difference is calling "translate" function |
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| 15:48:54 | <kuribas> | ah I see what you mean. |
| 15:49:05 | <kuribas> | yeah, that could work |
| 15:49:40 | <kuribas> | I could separate the JSON as much as possible with some custom javascript. |
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| 15:51:59 | <kuribas> | Then I never need to generate javascript, I just make a single javascript function, which I put into a haskell string. |
| 15:54:00 | <kuribas> | That soulds like the best plan. |
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| 18:05:52 | <hololeap> | is there a compatibility layer between (MonadBase IO)/(MonadBaseControl IO) and (MonadIO/MonadUnliftIO)? i ask because i'm writing a library using the former, but i don't want to alienate users who use the latter |
| 18:07:03 | <hololeap> | i also don't want to alienate users who use The Ladder |
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| 18:28:32 | <solvr> | What if Haskell made a few small concessions so the general audience could like it more. |
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| 18:29:08 | <maerwald> | solvr: like? |
| 18:30:08 | <thblt> | I vote GOTO |
| 18:30:14 | <MarcelineVQ> | concede that python is the superior language |
| 18:30:37 | <solvr> | Something like Erlang's process dictionary. And something like Erlang's processes |
| 18:30:43 | <solvr> | so it looks more OOP |
| 18:31:15 | <MarcelineVQ> | processes are cool, cloud-haskell has a bit of that iirc |
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| 18:31:32 | <MarcelineVQ> | *Cloud Haskell (distributed-process) |
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| 18:36:42 | <maerwald> | isn't that dead? |
| 18:37:04 | <geekosaur> | effectively |
| 18:38:56 | <MarcelineVQ> | yet with untold aeons even death may die |
| 18:39:06 | <MarcelineVQ> | e.g. there's also the option to compile _to_ erlang |
| 18:39:31 | <solvr> | What about compiling to JS |
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| 18:40:47 | <MarcelineVQ> | ghcjs is the most successful effort for doing that in haskell |
| 18:41:23 | <solvr> | I guess Haskell will never be very popular then |
| 18:41:58 | <juri_> | I hope people will eventually get tired of writing bad imperitive code. |
| 18:42:04 | <maerwald> | very popular means you're flooded with mediocre library maintainers, as can be seen on npm |
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| 18:42:56 | <solvr> | juri_, some imperative code is most suitable between boundaries |
| 18:43:21 | <maerwald> | what's wrong with imperative code |
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| 18:44:21 | <juri_> | it can be useful, but it can also be completely horrible. i like writing pure code, with a small kernel of imperitive code. |
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| 18:44:37 | <maerwald> | that sounds like taste, not an actual engineering concern |
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| 18:47:15 | <juri_> | the ability to reason about code is an engineering concern. pure code is easier to reason about, which tends to lead to better, more maintainable code. |
| 18:48:14 | <maerwald> | Don't think that's true. The problem is shared mutable state. You can tackle that in imperative languages too, see rust. |
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| 18:55:17 | <Lycurgus> | what is "pure code"? |
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| 18:56:04 | <Lycurgus> | the instructions only in a code stream? |
| 18:56:43 | <dcbdan> | me thinks: code that has no side effects. As in, can be expressed like a mathematical function |
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| 18:57:01 | <maerwald> | simplified: pure code is code where the evaluation strategy doesn't affect semantics |
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| 18:58:15 | <Lycurgus> | so it's referential transparency |
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| 18:59:00 | <maerwald> | the point is that it's not defined for execution |
| 18:59:03 | <Lycurgus> | which sounds like a thing where as "pure oode" sounds like bs |
| 18:59:33 | <maerwald> | so the fact that haskell is pure doesn't actually give you much, because you can pass around IORefs like a madman, can you not? |
| 18:59:35 | <Lycurgus> | asif pure code lacked smells |
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| 19:00:18 | <Lycurgus> | asif the pure were the clean |
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| 20:39:20 | <monochrom> | I'm done with letting solvr waste our time every few days with their "haskell should be more mutable" drivel. |
| 20:39:47 | <monochrom> | Next time it will be a ban. |
| 20:40:48 | <maerwald> | oh, was it supposed to be a troll attempt? |
| 20:41:23 | <monochrom> | I can't tell the difference between trolling and lunacy. |
| 20:41:42 | <monochrom> | But it's drivel either way. |
| 20:42:05 | <monochrom> | And it's repeating offence. |
| 20:42:13 | <monochrom> | s/repeating/repeated/ |
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| 20:43:11 | <maerwald> | Popularity is a double edged sword anyway... too much and you have too many mediocre maintainers, too little and you have no ecosystem. |
| 20:43:35 | <monochrom> | Repeated offenders and lenient liberals alike complain about my bans because they don't have state to remember that I don't ban until I see repeaated offense. |
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| 20:44:08 | <monochrom> | Oh popularity is just their newest excuse. |
| 20:44:45 | <monochrom> | Previously they cited other excuses to demand mutability such as "interface boundary" and "data structure efficiency". |
| 20:45:46 | <monochrom> | and ""Functional programming is to turn on the light, you need to rebuild your house" |
| 20:46:27 | <monochrom> | and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/haskell/21.04.06 search for <solvr> |
| 20:46:54 | <maerwald> | haha |
| 20:47:01 | <maerwald> | that's a good one |
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| 20:48:42 | <maerwald> | maybe it's sophisticated critique about the lack of modular and composable effects systems |
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| 20:49:22 | <maerwald> | well, or not... |
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| 20:51:51 | <monochrom> | I once saw a genuinely sophisticated critique. It was from one of the Oz people IIRC. I say that it is genuinely sophisticated because it included a convincing, concrete example. |
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| 20:53:14 | <monochrom> | The difference between genuine sophisticated critique and lunacy is that the lunatic one just keeps talking and keeps talking bigger and bigger. |
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| 20:53:43 | <monochrom> | Equivalently if it's indistinguishable from a Markov-Mealy machine then it's lunacy. |
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| 20:53:53 | <monochrom> | i.e., armchair philosopher |
| 20:53:58 | <maerwald> | I didn't find it disruptive until now, but I only noticed them today |
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| 20:57:44 | <d34df00d> | hololeap: oh, right. |
| 20:57:55 | <d34df00d> | Commuting monads is hard! Let me try to internalize that. |
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| 21:05:15 | <m_miro> | Excuse me, is it possible to have a data type that contains a definition like: |
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| 21:05:18 | <m_miro> | data Custom = Custom Custom | Something |
| 21:05:40 | <m_miro> | and then have a variable like: |
| 21:05:57 | <m_miro> | myVariable = Something Something? |
| 21:06:21 | <dcbdan> | Do you mean myVariable = Custom Something ? |
| 21:06:49 | <dcbdan> | Something Something does not work, because the Something constructor is just of type Custom |
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| 21:07:10 | <m_miro> | Oh I see |
| 21:07:24 | <monochrom> | Perhaps please don't use the same "Custom" name for two unrelated things. |
| 21:07:58 | <maerwald> | data Custom = MkCustom Custom | MkSomething |
| 21:08:10 | <dcbdan> | ^one 'Custom' is a constructor, the other is a type |
| 21:08:16 | <m_miro> | So if I wanted Something Something I'd have to define Something as Custom? |
| 21:08:23 | <maerwald> | oh dear |
| 21:08:29 | <maerwald> | I'm confused now too :D |
| 21:08:40 | <monochrom> | What is "Something Something" supposed to mean? |
| 21:08:51 | <monochrom> | And why is it so necessary? |
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| 21:09:00 | <maerwald> | it sounds like an assignment |
| 21:09:17 | <maerwald> | define Something Something |
| 21:09:49 | <m_miro> | "Something Something" is supposed to be to "commands" in sequence |
| 21:09:52 | <maerwald> | Maybe better start with Motivation? |
| 21:09:55 | <m_miro> | it is an assignment |
| 21:10:19 | <monochrom> | OK I want to see the assignment handout verbatim uncut unabridged uninterpreted. |
| 21:10:47 | <maerwald> | just because you want to reuse it :p |
| 21:11:00 | <monochrom> | Nah. |
| 21:11:27 | <monochrom> | It is because every student misinterprets the assignment handout. |
| 21:11:47 | <monochrom> | And/or create a creative chain of XY problems out of it. |
| 21:11:57 | <monochrom> | here "creative" is derogative. |
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| 21:14:11 | <m_miro> | here's the assignment |
| 21:14:12 | <m_miro> | https://imgur.com/a/aflD108 |
| 21:14:23 | <m_miro> | oh wait it cut it |
| 21:14:56 | <m_miro> | https://imgur.com/a/FZpqSPt |
| 21:16:15 | <monochrom> | I trust that you already understand that you use one data constructor to stand for, for example, "moveto". |
| 21:16:23 | × | quinn quits (~quinn@c-73-223-224-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 21:16:36 | <monochrom> | In the case of "cmd; cmd", you use one data constructor to represent the ";". |
| 21:18:15 | <monochrom> | I trust that you have seen examples where you use "data E = I Integer | Add E E" because it represents "expr ::= integer | expr + expr", "Add" stands for the "+" there. |
| 21:18:23 | <monochrom> | So it's similar for ";". |
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| 21:18:56 | <m_miro> | Yes I used one data constructor to stand for "moveto" |
| 21:19:44 | <m_miro> | I didn't think of representing the ";" as a data constructor |
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| 21:21:17 | <m_miro> | I've seen example like the one you posted it just didn't think to use it for ";" |
| 21:21:54 | <monochrom> | It's alright, C and Python brainwashed you to not realize it. |
| 21:22:11 | <m_miro> | What do you mean? |
| 21:22:29 | <monochrom> | Pascal did it right. Pascal's semicolon is between two commands. |
| 21:22:56 | <monochrom> | You write like "x:=1 ; y:=2 ; z:=x+y", not "x:=1 ; y:=2 ; z:=x+y;" |
| 21:23:52 | <monochrom> | The semantic difference is huge. Pascal reminds you that there is a binary operator for sequential composition, it is a binary operator. |
| 21:25:38 | <sm2n> | confusingly, C has a binary operator for sequential composition (,) |
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| 21:25:51 | <sm2n> | statement-oriented languages are just weird |
| 21:26:09 | <monochrom> | Sapir-Worf would be proud. |
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| 21:31:45 | <m_miro> | im not seeing the difference |
| 21:31:56 | ← | jakalx parts (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ("Error from remote client") |
| 21:32:04 | <m_miro> | is it the "x+y" and the "x+y;" |
| 21:32:43 | <monochrom> | OK, "cmd1 ; cmd2" vs "cmd1 ; cmd2 ;" |
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| 21:33:20 | <monochrom> | If I expressed adding two numbers as "1 + 2 +" people would say I'm crazy. |
| 21:33:42 | <thblt> | Rust has something like that. `cmd1 ; cmd2 ;` evals to (), but `cmd1 ; cmd2` eval to the result of cmd2 |
| 21:33:43 | <monochrom> | And that's what people decided to do with sequential-composing two jobs. |
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| 21:35:51 | <d34df00d> | Is there any channel specifically dedicated to numeric haskell in general or repa in particular? |
| 21:35:55 | <d34df00d> | Or best to shoot questions here? |
| 21:36:03 | <m_miro> | so I see the difference, but I don't see its importance |
| 21:37:10 | <monochrom> | The importance is between "I think I'll represent it as Seq Cmd Cmd" and "I think I'll represent it as Cmd Cmd". |
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| 21:46:35 | <m_miro> | oh i think i get it now |
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| 21:47:34 | <m_miro> | the ";" isnt being used as way to end a "command" but to signal that another "command" is going to be used afterwards |
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| 21:47:40 | <m_miro> | am i understanding correctly? |
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| 22:37:25 | <bradparker> | joel135: Sorry about that. That motivating example at the beginning is really poorly explained. All the other code examples are in a gist mentioned at the end of the article (https://gist.github.com/bradparker/205a8ff1f6bcbc9a2d3249e1d8ba5af1#file-lens-hs). That 'json' QuasiQuoter is available from the HSpec WAI JSON package (http://hackage.haskell.org/package/hspec-wai-json). |
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