Logs on 2021-04-15 (freenode/#haskell)

00:01:57	<nicholasbulka>	hey
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00:18:12	<monochrom>	Interesting. Define "reset p = runCont p id". Then reset has as much power as runCont because runCont p f = reset (fmap f p).
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00:34:05	<monochrom>	When I google for "mother of monads" I get https://twitchard.github.io/posts/2020-07-26-monads.html
00:34:14	<monochrom>	(don't worry, not 1st hit :) )
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00:52:43	<edwardk>	Cont is the mother of all monads, but she's not as productive as she could be. Er wait, that sounds like the preamble to a whole sexist rant. I'm going to stop now.
00:54:38	<monochrom>	:( :)
00:54:57	<ski>	monochrom : reminds me of <http://www.smonad.com/monad/> (also not the first search hit)
00:55:13	<monochrom>	haha great
00:55:48	<shachaf>	Isn't it settled that Codensity is the mother of all monads?
00:55:54	<monochrom>	Single monad, duality, and the four corners of the time cube.
00:56:06	<edwardk>	codensity is the grandmother of all monads
00:56:08	<ski>	(also, i prefer `reset :: Cont o o -> Cont p o; reset = return . evalCont', giving back an action)
00:57:23	<edwardk>	wait, she's a single monad?
00:58:33	<monochrom>	The mother of all monads may be most useful in Scheme and SML etc., as explained in Filinski's paper «representing monads»
00:59:20	<monochrom>	in which our cont and runCont become their shift and reset
00:59:24	<ski>	which languages, or language implementations, provide access to first-class continuations ?
00:59:35	<monochrom>	Scheme.
00:59:39	<ski>	Scheme and SML/NJ (and i think also Mlton or so ?)
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01:00:09	<ski>	but istr also hearing about some other ones. like some Smalltalk implementation, possibly Ruby (?), maybe a Python or Perl implementation ?
01:00:16	<monochrom>	But «representing monads» prefers shift/reset, I gather.
01:00:24	<ski>	yes
01:00:59	<monochrom>	Well, Racket also prefers any delimited continuation story than call/cc too. Hell, its call/cc can also be delimited...
01:01:03	<ski>	hm, i think there's an implementation for OCaml
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01:01:25	<ski>	yea .. many in the Scheme world now seem to prefer it
01:01:40	<monochrom>	Oleg likes to use OCaml to show off his continuation fu (both delimited and unlimited)
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01:01:52	ski	nods
01:02:30	<ski>	@quote shift.k
01:02:30	<lambdabot>	ddarius says: shift k. O(leg k)
01:02:39	<monochrom>	haha
01:03:55	<slack1256>	Are IsLabel instances written by hand or are they inferred by the compiler (as in Typeable)?
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01:09:52	<ski>	slack1256 : not the latter, i think. see <https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/exts/overloaded_labels.html>
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01:10:38	<slack1256>	Great, I wanted to corroborate.
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01:19:04	<DigitalKiwi>	glguy: use case; i search my logs a lot with grep, so when people use matrix/gist/paste site, w/e. it's not possible for me to find a message. so what i want is like a grep that when it finds a link that's a gist/matrix.org media `message.txt` etc. it substitutes the content of the url instead of the url.
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01:38:15	<slack1256>	Is there a current use for GHC.Records ?
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01:48:59	<Axman6>	Pretty sure we use it all the time in DAML, record dot syntax is on by dsefault and we use it everywhere
01:49:03	<Axman6>	default*
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02:15:44	<slack1256>	Right, I forgot about that extension.
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02:18:19	<__minoru__shirae>	DigitalKiwi: how about an obvious solution of expanding all those links into new logs and then grepping those new files
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02:18:50	<DigitalKiwi>	yeah i started that
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04:13:16	<jackdk>	How do I tell cabal to build haddocks of dependencies?
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04:24:49	<jackdk>	apparently I needed `documentation: True` in `~/.cabal/config` and not `cabal.project`
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04:38:54	<gnumonic>	I'm getting a "Reduction stack overflow ... when simplifying the following type: SDecide Nat". Is anything bad going to happen if I listen to the error message and disable the check? (I'm sure my proof terminates)
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04:51:34	<antaoiseach>	Hello folks, good place to ask about cabal build failures?
04:51:51	<antaoiseach>	(Newbie to the Haskell ecosystem, beginner-intermediate in the language itself)
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04:54:54	<glguy>	This is a fine place to ask. Things are a bit slow this time of the day
04:57:57	<antaoiseach>	glguy: Thank you!
04:58:38	<antaoiseach>	So I'm working through the Haskell MOOC (haskell.mooc.fi) course, and my setup was working with a manually installed ghc (8.8.4 IIRC) via homebrew.
04:59:03	<antaoiseach>	That led to some problems generating executables (link errors with both clang and gcc), and so I decided to do a fresh install.
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04:59:26	<antaoiseach>	I followed the recommended procedure and installed ghc vis ghcup (am on macOS) and installed stack as well
04:59:53	<antaoiseach>	The test cases are built using the command `cabal v2-build && cabal v2-exec runhaskell <testfile>`
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05:00:17	<antaoiseach>	Now this gives me problems during the build step itself (the stack version of the instructions also fail spectacularly)
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05:00:38	<antaoiseach>	```cabal: Failed to build basement-0.0.11 (which is required by tests-0.0.1). See
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05:00:41	<antaoiseach>	the build log above for details.
05:00:43	<antaoiseach>	Failed to build clock-0.8.2 (which is required by tests-0.0.1). See the build
05:00:46	<antaoiseach>	log above for details.
05:00:48	<antaoiseach>	Failed to build hourglass-0.2.12 (which is required by tests-0.0.1). See the
05:00:51	<antaoiseach>	build log above for details.
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05:00:53	<antaoiseach>	Failed to build hashable-1.3.1.0 (which is required by tests-0.0.1). See the
05:00:56	<antaoiseach>	build log above for details.
05:00:58	<antaoiseach>	Failed to build network-3.1.2.1 (which is required by tests-0.0.1). See the
05:01:01	<antaoiseach>	build log above for details.```
05:01:03	<antaoiseach>	(Sorry, thought the snippet would paste as a single message)
05:01:24	<antaoiseach>	I have a suspicion the libraries used by the mooc might be a build old and for an older lts version, but I'm not experienced in the haskell ecosystem enough to figure it out.
05:01:37	<antaoiseach>	Any tips to proceed debugging would be highly appreciated! :-)
05:01:41	<opqdonut>	antaoiseach: hi, author of haskell.mooc.fi here. I haven't tested the alternative cabal instructions in a while so it might very well be that they're broken. The recommended way is to use stack and that does seem to work for most studens. What problems are you having with stack?
05:02:31	<antaoiseach>	Oh hi opqdonut! Stack also crashes out with more inscrutable errors! :-)
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05:03:39	<antaoiseach>	opqdonut: Sorry, let me get the relevant output ... my computer seems to have frozen
05:03:55	<opqdonut>	use some sort of pastebin site
05:03:58	<opqdonut>	@where paste
05:03:58	<lambdabot>	Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com
05:04:04	<antaoiseach>	opqdonut: yes, will do. Thanks!
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05:08:47	<opqdonut>	antaoiseach: meanwhile, I tried the cabal v2-build method on my machine and it worked fine, so it's not _completely_ broken :)
05:09:23	<antaoiseach>	opqdonut: Here is the error part at the end - https://paste.tomsmeding.com/QMG5AEI7, and the full stack trace for `stack build` - https://paste.tomsmeding.com/llww9793
05:09:50	<antaoiseach>	opqdonut: yes, cabal v2-build worked nicely for me with ghc 8.8.4 (IIRC). Let me my latest versions info
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05:10:15	<antaoiseach>	~/.../haskell-mooc/exercises:master$ ghc --version
05:10:15	<antaoiseach>	\The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 8.10.4
05:10:15	<antaoiseach>	~/.../haskell-mooc/exercises:master$ cabal --version
05:10:15	<antaoiseach>	cabal-install version 3.4.0.0
05:10:15	<antaoiseach>	compiled using version 3.4.0.0 of the Cabal library
05:10:18	<antaoiseach>	~/.../haskell-mooc/exercises:master$ stack --version
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05:10:26	<antaoiseach>	Version 2.5.1, Git revision d6ab861544918185236cf826cb2028abb266d6d5 x86_64 hpack-0.33.0
05:10:31	<antaoiseach>	(stack version)
05:10:39	<antaoiseach>	Sorry for the walls of text, appreciate your help! ;-)
05:11:18	<sclv>	antaoiseach: ok so tou
05:11:42	<sclv>	er ok so you’re using homebrew gcc with ghc?
05:11:57	<antaoiseach>	sclv: Previously, but not installed with `ghcup`
05:12:04	<antaoiseach>	and stack from the stack site
05:12:18	<antaoiseach>	sclv: oh sorry, no, using clang
05:12:22	<antaoiseach>	(well, Apple clang)
05:12:47	<antaoiseach>	tried with gcc - gave a bunch of errors about unrecognised symbols and gc-options
05:12:52	<sclv>	the no pie stuff is a giveaway that there’s something funny with the combo of ghc and your system
05:13:02	<antaoiseach>	(gcc/clang/actual clang is a real mess on macOS I know :()
05:13:16	<antaoiseach>	sclv: I hope that's the case!
05:13:24	<antaoiseach>	not issues with lib versions
05:13:53	<sclv>	stack manages ghc in its own way, but if the ghcup installed one works fine my advice is stick to that
05:14:15	<sclv>	You can pass a flag to stack so it uses system ghc instead of its own
05:14:53	<antaoiseach>	here is my ghc settings file (from `ghc --print-libdir`) if it helps - https://paste.tomsmeding.com/KwXxg7OI
05:15:15	<antaoiseach>	sclv: that's for stack, right? the system-ghc flag
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05:16:51	<sclv>	ya
05:17:13	<antaoiseach>	sclv: yes, that makes sense!
05:17:26	<sclv>	note that your settings file says that the c compiler supports no-pie but the error message says it doesn’t
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05:17:49	<sclv>	here’s an older ticket with some details https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/16656
05:17:49	<antaoiseach>	sclv: lemme try setting that off and try
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05:18:40	<sclv>	you can pass verbosity flags to cabal to see the gcc/clang invocations too
05:18:48	<antaoiseach>	okay, with cabal build, it failed again, but with some slightly different messages
05:19:01	<antaoiseach>	sclv: passing `-v`?
05:19:04	<Guest78317>	another silly question again. i have a thing that should be a json array. i have a parser for each of the contents of the json array.
05:19:31	<sclv>	there’s a variety of verbosity levels iirc
05:20:38	<sclv>	the easiest thing to do is to make sure you install ghc in precisely the compiler env you intend to run it in, so ideally the configure script just works right
05:21:32	<antaoiseach>	sclv: I didn't get that... can you elaborate?
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05:23:10	<sclv>	the ticket explains. when you install ghc (including via ghcup) it runs scripts to detect what settings to put in that file. so if you install it with precisely the ambient env you want (correct gcc in path, etc) then things go smoothly
05:23:36	<sclv>	or one hopes they do
05:24:57	<antaoiseach>	sclv: Hmmm, okay. I read through that issue now.... seems kind of relevant, but I think they're building ghc from source there, right? I'd hoped that installing the binary from ghcup would have put in the right settings.
05:25:16	<antaoiseach>	Strangely enough, it did point to gcc (IIRC), and I had to manually change it to clang in the settings file
05:25:28	<sclv>	the configure gets run regardless
05:25:40	<sclv>	to generate that file
05:25:45	<antaoiseach>	Hmmm
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05:26:09	<antaoiseach>	That step is in the ghcup shell script though?
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05:26:20	<antaoiseach>	and that runs automatically with the command given on the site
05:26:43	<antaoiseach>	The command given is `curl --proto '=https' --tlsv1.2 -sSf https://get-ghcup.haskell.org \| sh` (on the ghcup site)
05:26:44	<sclv>	You can pass the installer a flag to tell it which c compiler to pick, but it picks the thing named gcc by default
05:27:09	<antaoiseach>	okay, let me try and reinstall ghcup and see all the options presented
05:27:11	<sclv>	recall that gcc is aliased to clang on brewless systems
05:27:24	<sclv>	idk if ghcup hides this from you
05:27:47	<sclv>	the curl script should have put a ghcup cmd in your path?
05:27:49	<antaoiseach>	sclv: Hmmm, yes. I don't recall actually ... let me try it out now and see the options
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05:28:59	<sclv>	i would have a gcc aliased to clang, do a clean install, and then later if i wanted to change this, then change the gcc alias and also the ghc config for only that
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05:29:16	<sclv>	it may not be the best approach but it seems safe
05:30:08	<antaoiseach>	sclv: funnily enough, macOS does have gcc aliased to Apple clang by default!
05:30:26	<antaoiseach>	I had manually rebound the alias to a brew installed instance of gcc 10
05:30:31	<antaoiseach>	so what you're saying makes sense
05:31:18	<sclv>	right. you changed the compiler but not its flags, leading to an inconsistent config file
05:32:31	<antaoiseach>	sclv: Okay, so I have removed the alias, gcc is now (as originally), pointing to Apple's clang instance ... installing via ghcup now... let's see!
05:32:54	<antaoiseach>	So it's pointing to Apple clang version 11.0.0 (clang-1100.0.33.17) right now
05:33:06	<antaoiseach>	let's hope for the best! :D
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05:39:35	<antaoise1ch>	sclv: Sorry about the outage ... power cut, back again. Okay, so no luck... cabal build is still failing
05:40:04	<antaoise1ch>	and strangely enough, the settings file still has references to gcc (had assumed it would use the alias and pick up clang)
05:40:22	<sclv>	no its going to use the alias name
05:40:34	<antaoise1ch>	okay
05:41:07	<antaoise1ch>	clang: error: linker command failed with exit code 1 (use -v to see invocation)
05:41:08	<antaoise1ch>	`gcc' failed in phase `Linker'. (Exit code: 1)
05:41:08	<antaoise1ch>	cabal: Failed to build basement-0.0.11 (which is required by tests-0.0.1). See
05:41:08	<antaoise1ch>	the build log above for details.
05:41:26	<antaoise1ch>	you're right ... it did use clang, but but same failure
05:41:30	<antaoise1ch>	let me try stack
05:41:43	<sclv>	wait is the failure the no pie?
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05:42:05	<sclv>	make sure your config file for ghc is actually now correct
05:43:46	<antaoise1ch>	sclv: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/fZKo4PPa is my new settings .. it has `NO` for pie support
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05:45:47	<antaoise1ch>	not sure what to make of it ...
05:46:00	<antaoise1ch>	the verbose output doesn't mention it though
05:46:13	<antaoise1ch>	I found this bit funny though - "Failed to build QuickCheck-2.14.2 because it depends on QuickCheck-2.14.2
05:46:16	<antaoise1ch>	"
05:46:19	<antaoise1ch>	:D
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05:46:30	<opqdonut>	antaoise1ch: sorry, I was away for a while, but it seems this issue is beyond me anyway. I have no experience with macos or building ghc from source...
05:47:29	<antaoise1ch>	opqdonut: hey, no worries! Yeah, macOS has a bunch of issues with Apple installing their own versions of stuff
05:47:46	<antaoise1ch>	Thanks for the help though, opqdonut and sclv! Appreciate it! :-)
05:47:56	<opqdonut>	modifying the stack.yaml to include `system-ghc: true` might help if you indeed manage to install a working GHC via some non-stack mechanism
05:48:07	<antaoise1ch>	I'll go back to 8.8.4, finish the mooc, and then try updating later! :D
05:48:23	<opqdonut>	perhaps also `skip-ghc-check: true` is needed if the ghc version doesn't match
05:48:24	<antaoise1ch>	opqdonut: I did set it to `true` :-)
05:48:43	<opqdonut>	hmm yeah going back to a working configuration you had before makes sense
05:48:45	<opqdonut>	have fun
05:48:48	<antaoise1ch>	Okay, I can try the skip-check and see..
05:48:55	<antaoise1ch>	Thanks, and cheers! :-)
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07:48:34	<BosonCollider>	okay, some of the patterns from Julias type system are honestly really intriguing
07:48:55	<BosonCollider>	inheritance hierarchies for uninhabited types are common
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07:52:15	<BosonCollider>	Mainly when making trait bounds which are mutually exclusive, by applying single inheritance to traits basically, which is separate from typeclass implication
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07:56:11	<BosonCollider>	I guess the typeclass equivalent for this would be to have type implication depend only on the root typeclass, but you get to have multiple subcases of each typeclass that are mutually exclusive and can have different default implementations
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08:08:48	<BosonCollider>	I guess that's arguably higher kinded inheritance?
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08:39:56	<DamienCassou>	hi
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08:55:52	<jophish>	.
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09:38:07	<absence>	is there a way to enable equality constraints (~) without enabling gadts or type families (and subsequently NoMonoLocalBinds)?
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11:40:50	<maralorn>	absence: Currently not. But there is a nearly accepted proposal about this: https://github.com/int-index/ghc-proposals/blob/67d80148e482e2b79256bb980ec1ac395b8e07ed/proposals/0000-non-magical-eq.md
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12:20:51	<kuribas>	I found a solution for my problem of how to create forms.
12:21:12	<kuribas>	Because some forms may depend on other forms, but they still need to be known statically.
12:21:23	<kuribas>	So it isn't a Monad, but also not an Applicative either.
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12:21:53	<kuribas>	They idea is to have a "form-builder" Monad, where you can register forms, then using the registered forms to specify the dependencies (as an applicative).
12:22:21	<kuribas>	the form-builder then can assign unique IDs for each form.
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12:28:15	<Franciman>	Hi all, I have a problem with servant-to-elm
12:28:21	<Franciman>	it generates elm code that does not compile
12:28:25	<Franciman>	because of an indentation issue
12:28:33	<Franciman>	have you experienced something similar?
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12:31:38	<Uniaika>	.2
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12:55:40	<timCF>	Hello! Is there some well-known generic Text-like type which can represent errors in complex business logic, where the most functions are returning something like `ExceptT Text m a`. Text is not very flexible in cases where sensitive data might be involved, and should be shown only in some particular cases. Basically I want to replace Text with something like `Error {errorSensitive :: Text,
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12:55:46	<timCF>	errorInsensitive :: Text, errorShowSensitive :: Bool}` and implement manually `Show` instance for this type. Just thinking, maybe I'm re-inventing the wheel and such thing/pattern already exists somewhere.
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13:01:16	<kuribas>	timCF: seems easy enough to define
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13:09:56	<tdammers>	Franciman: maybe the Elm compiler has been changed?
13:10:21	<Franciman>	the docs say that the library is compatible with elm 0.19
13:10:25	<Franciman>	now I use elm 0.19.2
13:10:36	<Franciman>	will a minor version bump cause so much havoc?
13:10:46	<tdammers>	with elm, anything's possible
13:10:49	<Franciman>	oh I see
13:10:50	<aforemny>	Franciman: Maybe as a work-around you could run elm-format on the resulting elm files? Maybe elm-format is able to fix the indentation issue.
13:11:02	<Franciman>	that is a terrific idea
13:11:03	<Franciman>	thanks
13:11:06	<aforemny>	Franciman: There are no syntax changes from 0.19.0 to 0.19.2 as far as I know
13:11:29	<Franciman>	is this elm format: https://github.com/avh4/elm-format ?
13:11:36	<aforemny>	Franciman: Yes
13:11:45	<Franciman>	thanks
13:12:00	<aforemny>	Franciman: Hope it works! :fingerscrossed:
13:14:32	<L29Ah>	is it me or ghc build system breaks if i build it with make -j9?
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13:41:51	<fendor>	L29Ah, I think you should rather ask that in #ghc?
13:42:51	<L29Ah>	idk; > Please ask user questions in #haskell
13:43:07	<merijn>	L29Ah: User as in "compiler users"
13:43:30	<merijn>	L29Ah: i.e. #ghc is strictly for "hacking on GHC questions" and not "programming Haskell questions"
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14:07:37	<kuribas>	Isn't allowing non-total computations more a question of culture rather than language? I find that haskell programmers are largely afraid of having non-total computations, even if it makes the code simpler, while a clojure programmer wouldn't care.
14:08:47	<kuribas>	For example, having a combinator that outputs a runtime error instead of being proven correct in the type system, may be acceptable, as long as the error is done early.
14:09:09	<kuribas>	As in, the code will always give an error if the combinator is applied wrongly.
14:09:28	<nicholasbulka>	what exactly is a non total computation?
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14:09:56	<kuribas>	nicholasbulka: a computation that in some cases results in a run-time error.
14:10:17	<kuribas>	I am more thinking about using combinators to specify business logic.
14:10:27	<nicholasbulka>	gotcha, how does Either fit into that?
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14:10:36	<nicholasbulka>	I apologize for my noob questions :-D
14:10:57	<kuribas>	nicholasbulka: Either is fine, because it is total.
14:11:29	<nicholasbulka>	so as opposed to finding an uncaught null value at runtime?
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14:11:46	<kuribas>	yes
14:11:53	<kuribas>	but IMO null values are not acceptable.
14:11:55	<tdammers>	largely depends on what you consider a bottom
14:12:08	<kuribas>	that's where clojure, java, etc, gets it wrong.
14:12:31	<kuribas>	nicholasbulka: Either forces you to handle the error case.
14:12:47	<tdammers>	but I would say that null is a perfectly fine value. it's just problematic to have it as a mandatory inhabitant of all user-defined types
14:13:14	<hyperisco>	kuribas, but non-total can also mean it does not terminate
14:13:17	<kuribas>	tdammers: true, but how would you do that without an option type?
14:14:08	<kuribas>	hyperisco: yeah, the case I find acceptable is early crashing, with a meaningfull error message.
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14:14:28	<tdammers>	I think you're being a tad bit pretentious here
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14:14:40	<kuribas>	tdammers: how so?
14:15:13	<ij>	Do graphs from fgl be converted back to data?
14:15:14	<tdammers>	I mean, making everything nullable with no typesystem support for ruling out nulls is of course a lousy decision
14:15:16	<merijn>	Well, see: nullPtr
14:15:38	<tdammers>	but that has relatively little to do with "totality" as a property of the language as a whole
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14:16:26	<hyperisco>	kuribas, you have to hit the crash to know it exists then, which isn't guaranteed … I think the question is what sort of errors are most likely to reveal themselves when made, and how obviously do they identify themselves among other possible sources of error
14:16:31	<dolio>	People are often 'scared' of partial functions because the errors and whatnot are not the sort of thing that are supposed to exit the program and be reported. They're supposed to be impossible cases that are sometimes very hard to track down when they end up not being impossible.
14:17:10	<dolio>	And it's a classic scenario for someone to go, "you're too worried about it, just use partial functions," and then it comes back to ruin their day.
14:17:26	<hyperisco>	running your program and getting a seg fault is typically not a good day
14:17:34	<tdammers>	maybe worth mentioning that all practical general-purpose languages are partial
14:17:38	<merijn>	It's a great day
14:17:49	<merijn>	It's not getting a segfault that makes your life shit
14:18:08	<hyperisco>	okay I guess I like shit
14:18:09	<kuribas>	hyperisco: the problem with a segfault is that it is hard to track.
14:18:25	<merijn>	What? segfaults are trivial to track
14:18:29	<merijn>	You get a coredump
14:18:36	<merijn>	It's silent memory corruption that's hell
14:18:38	<kuribas>	merijn: then what? gdb?
14:18:43	<merijn>	kuribas: Yes
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14:19:03	<hyperisco>	we're talking about different leagues of difficulty here lol
14:19:05	<kuribas>	merijn: how do I map that to a haskell function?
14:19:06	<merijn>	kuribas: Much better than "some state got corrupted by write to a dangling pointer that didn't segfault and now memory is consistent"
14:19:17	<tdammers>	segfaults aren't hard to track. the only problem with them is that they're in the "prove the presence of a bug" class, not the "prove the absence of a bug" class
14:19:19	<merijn>	kuribas: GHC supports DWARF symbols now
14:19:31	<hyperisco>	a simple error to me is you run the program, you get an error, and from that you immediately know where and what in the program is wrong
14:19:35	<merijn>	(actually has since 8.0?)
14:19:43	<hyperisco>	intuitively, not stepping through a debugger
14:19:57	<merijn>	hyperisco: That's nice, but entirely unrelated to "total" or "not total"
14:19:59	<hyperisco>	if you have to start stepping through a debugger you're in a bad place
14:20:32	<merijn>	(or partiality for that matter)
14:21:00	<hyperisco>	I don't understand how you can make that assertion
14:21:44	<maerwald>	hm, we only have one dwarf bindist though
14:21:46	<merijn>	You can have partial functions with great errors and total functions with shit errors
14:22:06	<merijn>	"quality of error" and partiality are entirely orthogonal
14:22:21	<hyperisco>	I didn't say otherwise
14:22:38	<merijn>	hyperisco: I'm confused why we are even talking about quality of errors, though?
14:22:51	<tdammers>	also, you don't usually step when debugging a segfault. or at least, I don't.
14:22:53	<hyperisco>	because kuribas was talking about it
14:22:53	<merijn>	The discussion started with "is partiality important or not"
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14:23:11	<ij>	re fgl: the interface isn't hidden, it's just type Gr = IntMap, so IntMap.toList should do :)
14:23:23	<kuribas>	merijn: not important, but acceptable.
14:23:23	<tdammers>	I use gdb to find the pointer that segfaults, and then I either stare the bug down with that information, or I pepper the code with tests to rule out all the error conditions I can think of.
14:23:24	<ij>	view source button from hackage docs is amazing
14:23:27	<tdammers>	that usually does the trick.
14:23:40	<tdammers>	I think I haven't step-debugged anything in over a decade now
14:23:46	<kuribas>	tdammers: that doesn't sound low-effort
14:23:56	<tdammers>	it is, though
14:24:11	<maerwald>	writing tests to find a bug sounds too much like an engineer
14:24:14	<maerwald>	:p
14:24:14	<merijn>	tdammers: It's mostly the issue of debuggers being shit, though
14:24:21	<tdammers>	the idea is to not waste any time
14:24:35	<merijn>	tdammers: Allinea DDT was some amazing shit
14:24:47	<tdammers>	step-debugging is frugal - the moment you step away from a line, the state in which your program was at that moment is lost, only preserved in your brain
14:24:47	<merijn>	tdammers: Of course it costs, like 100k per year per engineer :p
14:24:58	<tdammers>	well yeah, debuggers being shit also contributes
14:25:11	<merijn>	Good debuggers exist, but people charge :p
14:25:30	<maerwald>	my debugger is printf
14:25:33	<tdammers>	but the fundamental problem remains that step-debugging is usually ad-hoc and unprincipled
14:25:36	<maerwald>	screw everything else
14:25:45	<tdammers>	even printf-debugging is more principled than step debugging
14:26:25	<maerwald>	also, gdb acts weird with O2 sometimes and some bugs disappear with O0
14:26:51	<merijn>	maerwald: printf is my default too, tbh
14:27:03	<kuribas>	hyperisco: the usecase is this, I want to make a combinator library for generating some javascript, and some combinations are invalid. Proving them invalid in code makes the types complicated, requires typeclasses, phantom types, etc... however doing it using a runtime error is relatively easy.
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14:27:54	<tdammers>	kuribas: in that case, the standard Haskell approach would be to lock down what you can with types, within reason, and use property testing to deal with the rest
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14:28:21	<hyperisco>	kuribas, I wouldn't bother then
14:28:43	<kuribas>	tdammers: how would property testing help the user get it right?
14:29:26	<kuribas>	tdammers: or do you mean the user should property test their use?
14:29:55	<kuribas>	I guess unit tests will help, not sure how to make property tests for the generated javascript...
14:32:01	<tdammers>	I meant property-test the combinators to make sure they meet the specification
14:32:04	<dolio>	Are you talking about giving a 'runtime error' during the generation of the JS? Because that sounds like in this scenario it's actually a static error.
14:32:25	<tdammers>	^ that
14:32:27	<dolio>	Which is precisely what the 'total functions' are supposed to accomplish in the scenarios you're talking about.
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14:35:37	<kuribas>	dolio: yeah
14:36:01	<dolio>	The analogue of what people dislike about partial functions would be your tool saying nothing, but generating JS that fails for customers instead.
14:42:03	<kuribas>	indeed
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15:02:58	<absence>	maralorn: cool, thanks
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15:53:46	<shapr>	Does cabal support "find all source files in specified directory" ? That is, can cabal automatically create an export module list?
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15:54:31	<edwardk>	shapr: no
15:54:33	<geekosaur>	no. iirc that's one of the big reasons people prefer stack's package.yaml even though it's less capable in other ways
15:54:38	<edwardk>	shapr: you can do that through the stack toolchain
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15:55:03	<shapr>	edwardk: we want to switch from stack to cabal at work, so I'm checking feature parity
15:55:35	<shapr>	I've seen many cases where stack does more rebuilding than cabal when module change, but I haven't pinned it down to specifics.
15:55:44	<edwardk>	you can still use package.yaml through whatever tool it was that produces it
15:55:56	<edwardk>	er consumes it
15:56:09	<shapr>	so, use hpack to produce a cabal file?
15:56:12	<edwardk>	yeah
15:56:16	<sclv>	right, if you want autodiscovery
15:56:26	<sclv>	imho its overrated as a feature for production
15:56:29	<edwardk>	then you can just use the cabal toolchain from there
15:56:34	<shapr>	we also mentioned https://github.com/deech/cabal-auto-expose but I don't think anyone has tried it.
15:56:40	<sclv>	its really just handy for sort of experimental projects
15:56:50	<edwardk>	my concern with stack is mostly that the moment i want backpack multiple public libs to shrink my maintenance burden, etc. i get stuck
15:57:06	<Franciman>	stack is the inferior solution
15:57:10	<sclv>	but yeah, package.yaml vs cabal files is actually orthogonal to cabal/stack
15:57:15	<shapr>	Franciman: for some things! not for other things
15:57:20	<sclv>	its just stack runs stuff thru hpack by default
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15:57:44	<Franciman>	shapr, stackage is quite cool for example
15:57:52	<Franciman>	but it does not require stack
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15:57:59	<shapr>	Franciman: good point!
15:58:05	<Franciman>	stack's ability to choose a ghc is not unique
15:58:15	<shapr>	Last time I was teaching Haskell on windows stack was the best choice
15:58:16	<Franciman>	you can use ghcup or vabal
15:58:24	<shapr>	Franciman: I don't think ghcup works on windows
15:58:34	<Franciman>	yup, that is a selling point for stack
15:58:38	<shapr>	but I also don't have a wsl2 for testing
15:59:00	<sclv>	ok can we Not have the big discussion again, lol
15:59:03	<shapr>	Franciman: Yea, I prefer an explicit list of what tool is better for which situation
15:59:12	<Franciman>	that makes sense
15:59:28	<sclv>	that said -- on windows for heavy duty use the chocolatey way is really nice and idiomatic to windows ways of doing things
15:59:40	<shapr>	that also makes it easier for me to update my list when features are added
15:59:43	<sclv>	its only a bit problematic for extremely new users who are afraid of using like cmd line stuff
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15:59:54	<shapr>	sclv: I haven't done any Haskell dev on Windows, what's it like?
16:00:13	<sclv>	chocolatey? its just the equivalent of brew for windows
16:00:17	<shapr>	oh, neato
16:00:27	<shapr>	I recently started using brew at work, it's ... okay
16:00:36	<sclv>	tamar did a lot of work to make it work really cleanly with haskell
16:00:52	<shapr>	I've found it easier to use nix to install things on mac
16:01:09	<shapr>	well, not easier at first maybe, but to get consistently working installations of multiple tools
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16:01:35	<shapr>	Franciman: you writing any cool Haskell code?
16:01:45	<Franciman>	I hope so :P
16:01:52	<shapr>	ooh, what is it?
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16:02:14	<Franciman>	I am writing my programming language
16:02:17	<shapr>	edwardk: so you need to parameterize your backpack builds and produce a pile of resulting artifacts?
16:02:23	<Franciman>	and stuff for work which is less exciting
16:02:31	<Franciman>	and you?
16:02:45	<edwardk>	i use backpack to get code reuse for lots of unpacked data structures and the like
16:02:54	<edwardk>	and to make lots of little compilers that all share logic
16:03:13	<shapr>	I've written several things, but this weekend I want to figure out how to tune Haskell for command line utilities. I want to make this faster: https://github.com/shapr/bloohm
16:03:24	<Franciman>	cool
16:03:56	<shapr>	I want to write a blog post on "how to tune your Haskell for speedy command line utilities"
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16:04:09	<shapr>	but nothing like the usual edwardk post
16:04:26	<Franciman>	it would be pretty interesting for me. Are you going to cover ghc profiler and laziness inspection?
16:04:31	<shapr>	more like "single threaded runtime will give you better latency"
16:04:38	<shapr>	Franciman: I want to!
16:04:47	<shapr>	I could certainly talk about profiling
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16:05:13	<shapr>	I'm not sure of the best way to talk about laziness inspection, I just learned about nothunks but that might be overkill?
16:05:27	<shapr>	this https://well-typed.com/blog/2020/09/nothunks/
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16:06:23	<Franciman>	i would definitely read it, then
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16:06:47	←	pippijn parts (~pippijn@unixcorps/staff/pippijn) ()
16:07:24	<shapr>	edwardk: when will the comonad reader get new posts?
16:07:33	<shapr>	I'm considering rebooting The Monad.Reader
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16:07:36	→	kristijonas joins (~kristijon@78-56-32-39.static.zebra.lt)
16:07:51	<shapr>	but first, the international obfuscated haskell code contest will soon be announced!
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16:08:20	<shapr>	This IRC channel turns twenty on April 30th ! w00!
16:10:36	<edwardk>	shapr: not sure. might work on an actual paper first
16:11:03	<shapr>	ah, fair enough
16:11:06	<edwardk>	and miri is keeping me busy, plus i'm now engaged over at groq
16:11:23	<sclv>	groq?
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16:13:13	<Javier12>	Hello
16:13:26	<Javier12>	I'm trying to understand a bit more the source code of the Reader Monad
16:13:33	<Javier12>	here: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mtl-2.2.2/docs/src/Control.Monad.Reader.Class.html#asks
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16:14:47	<Javier12>	But I don't understand how the class is defined `class Monad m => MonadReader r m \| m -> r where`
16:14:47	<Javier12>	what does "\| m -> r " mean here?
16:15:32	<kuribas>	Javier12: it means the type variable r is completely determined by the type variable m
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16:15:54	<kuribas>	Javier12: in other words, give some type m, there is only one possible value of r
16:16:13	<qwerty2o>	hi
16:16:58	<qwerty2o>	i remeber there was a function that would clamp numbers like if its bigger than 0 then it would return 1, and if it's smaller, than -1
16:17:12	<qwerty2o>	can anyone tell me what that function's name is?
16:17:28	<Rembane>	Sounds like something in Num
16:18:18	<kuribas>	qwerty2o: min 1 . max (-1) ?
16:18:32	<falsifian>	signum
16:19:08	<falsifian>	It can be called the "sign function" if you want to search for it.
16:19:12	<qwerty2o>	yess signum
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16:19:14	<qwerty2o>	thanks
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16:20:25	<Javier12>	thanks kuribas do you know the term for this so I can search more information about it?
16:20:36	<kuribas>	Javier12: functional dependencies
16:21:58	<Javier12>	Thanks for the hint kuribas!
16:22:21	<kuribas>	np
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20:02:55	<Philonous>	Franciman, stackage doesn't strictly speaking require stack, but all the waiys to actually use it directly with cabal have some snags
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20:08:40	<Philonous>	edwardk, Since you're at MIRI, do you work with Eliezer Yudkowsky?
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20:09:00	<Franciman>	Philonous, I have great perplexities in fact
20:09:07	<Franciman>	stackage in practice is almost locked in vendor
20:09:12	<Franciman>	they tell you to use stack
20:09:14	<Franciman>	to use their server
20:09:22	<Franciman>	to use their infrastructure
20:11:14	<Philonous>	I don't think they intentionally lock you in, you are welcome to use it however you like, but the stack guys have IMO always been very "shoot first and worry about compatibility later"
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20:11:49	<Philonous>	Which isn't necessarily bad. Stack worked impressively well when cabal was a big pain.
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21:28:13	<maerwald>	Philonous: what problems have you seen when using stackage with cabal?
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21:28:58	<maerwald>	I have done so myself with relatively high success... the problem is only converting the snapshot and the stack configuration correctly
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21:29:35	<maerwald>	@hackage stack2cabal
21:29:36	<lambdabot>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/stack2cabal
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21:37:58	<maerwald>	the other problem is that it's hard to manually tell cabal which revision of a package you want
21:38:10	<maerwald>	you can only do so implicitly via the index state
21:39:02	<sclv>	i know its not perfect, but ideally one would always want the latest revision (if this isn't true, the revision was done weirdly/wrongly)
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21:44:20	<maerwald>	sclv: not necessarily
21:44:31	<maerwald>	some revisions break build plans
21:44:42	<sclv>	right but they shouldn't
21:44:48	<sclv>	they should only rule out invalid builds
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21:46:31	<maerwald>	I forgot why that doesn't work, I think because you can't have build plans per GHC version
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21:47:13	<sclv>	you can often use base as a proxy
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21:48:19	<maerwald>	I'm aware of the GHC-base relationship
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21:50:16	<Philonous>	@maerwald, You can download the stackage snaptshot as a cabal.confg directly, e.g. https://www.stackage.org/lts-17.9/cabal.config
21:50:16	<lambdabot>	Unknown command, try @list
21:50:26	<Philonous>	Oops
21:50:36	<maerwald>	sclv: https://github.com/ekmett/contravariant/issues/61
21:50:38	<Philonous>	But as the file says, that sometimes fails because of revisions
21:50:48	<maerwald>	Philonous: stack2cabal does a better job at that
21:51:05	<maerwald>	sclv: "However, when I actually did bump these version bounds, I discovered that contravariant fails to build with StateVar-1.2 on old GHCs due to changes in Safe Haskell behavior. See here for an example of the error that occurred."
21:51:12	<Philonous>	Ah, I didn't know about that tool. Maybe that would be the best of both worlds then
21:51:23	<maerwald>	so they changed an upper bound, because of failures of an old GHC version
21:51:44	<maerwald>	you can't specify upper bounds depending on GHC versions
21:52:26	<maerwald>	either you drop the old GHC version as unsupported, or you revert something that works for some GHC versions
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21:52:51	<maerwald>	and those who had a valid build plan now have a solver error
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21:53:31	<maerwald>	but not sure that's something relevant for stackage, since it's allow-newer anyway
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21:53:53	<sclv>	interesting!
21:54:22	<maerwald>	but I think a revision update could theoretically add or remove platform support as well
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21:55:22	<maerwald>	IMO, they were a mistake and stem out of the necessity to fix stuff on hackage without making releases bypassing maintainers
21:55:55	<maerwald>	but that's the error of PVP
21:55:59	<maerwald>	not having revisions
21:56:16	<sclv>	i mean the issue you linked seems fine -- the revision turned out to not be safe (monotone) and so was reverted
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21:56:19	<sclv>	and a new version was released
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21:56:40	<sclv>	you need revisions to make things work even if maintainers do them themselves tho
21:56:42	<maerwald>	sclv: now cabal freezez index state too, so you don't hit such problems
21:56:51	<sclv>	otherwise you can't ever fix wrong metadata
21:56:55	<maerwald>	the linked revision update broke CI in production
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21:57:08	<sclv>	no that was the revision _reversion_ that broke things
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21:57:24	<maerwald>	no, that was an added revision
21:57:39	<maerwald>	you can't revert a revision, you can only add new ones
21:57:42	<sclv>	first there was a revision to allow StateVar to be higher, and they moved to that
21:57:57	<sclv>	right then they reverted it with a new revision, and then moving to that lower bound again broke things
21:58:04	<sclv>	because that was a _nonmonotone_ revision
21:59:08	<sclv>	and yeah its unfortunate that a situation like that (fixing an erronious revision) can lead to nonmonotone behavior
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22:02:25	<maerwald>	so yeah... the proper way would have been to fix PVP and then allow non-maintainer updates with revisions as proper part of the package version
22:02:43	<maerwald>	instead now revisions are something infrastructure specific...
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All times are in UTC on 2021-04-15.