Logs on 2021-04-17 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 01:57:54 | <zq> | where is `instance Ord String` defined? |
| 01:58:31 | <zq> | and in general, how to locate instance definition for some type? |
| 01:58:52 | <glguy> | It's not, but there's an instance for [a] |
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| 01:59:18 | <glguy> | Ghci's :info command helps |
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| 01:59:43 | <zq> | actually, disregard |
| 01:59:47 | <zq> | glguy: right, thanks |
| 01:59:54 | <zq> | unfortunately https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.15.0.0/ghc-prim-0.7.0/src/GHC-Classes.html#compare 404s |
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| 02:00:38 | <zq> | disregard, found it |
| 02:00:39 | <glguy> | Why are you looking at that one? |
| 02:00:53 | × | cyphase quits (~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 02:01:51 | <zq> | glguy: looking at that hackage link or Ord [Char] in general? |
| 02:02:00 | <glguy> | That link |
| 02:02:23 | <zq> | i figured the hackage page for Ord might have some clues |
| 02:02:27 | <c_wraith> | I mean, I'm pretty curious why you're looking at Ord [a] in general, too |
| 02:03:23 | <zq> | c_wraith: because i wanted to know if `compare [] (_:_) == LT` in general, ie could there be an Ord a for which GT makes more sense instead |
| 02:03:44 | <c_wraith> | Doesn't the instance head tell you that? |
| 02:04:20 | <zq> | i mean i got my answer from the instance definition |
| 02:04:28 | <zq> | https://github.com/ghc/ghc/blob/master/libraries/ghc-prim/GHC/Classes.hs#L393 |
| 02:04:31 | <c_wraith> | But you didn't even need to. the docs tell you explicitly |
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| 02:04:52 | <c_wraith> | "instance Ord a => Ord [a]" is enough to tell you that |
| 02:05:21 | <zq> | ...i am slow and still don't follow |
| 02:06:07 | <zq> | i'm not seeing what within the hackage docs for Ord would indicate this |
| 02:06:25 | <c_wraith> | The instance head is sufficient. |
| 02:06:45 | <c_wraith> | You know that the only way the element type can be used is via the Ord instance. |
| 02:06:59 | <c_wraith> | Which is far from enough to distinguish types that it's comparing |
| 02:07:20 | <c_wraith> | So the equality algorithm must not use that information |
| 02:08:44 | <zq> | what's to stop someone from defining `instance Ord a => Ord (Evil [a]) where { compare (Evil []) (Evil (_:_)) = GT; ... }` just for fun? |
| 02:09:02 | <c_wraith> | Nothing, but that's not an instance defined for [] |
| 02:09:06 | <zq> | that deoesn't really violate the Ord laws |
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| 02:10:04 | <c_wraith> | in Haskell, types are *incredibly* powerful documentation. type variables in particular, tell you a lot about what implementation can't be doing. |
| 02:10:12 | <zq> | i was using Evil as a newtype to illustrate that the actual definition for compare :: Ord a => [a] -> [a] -> Ordering could have just as well be defined differently |
| 02:10:33 | <c_wraith> | It could be defined differently than it is *for all element types* |
| 02:10:44 | <c_wraith> | It can't be defined differently than it is for *some element type* |
| 02:10:44 | <zq> | what's your point? |
| 02:11:16 | <c_wraith> | My point is that the type already told you that checking at any one type told you its behavior for all types |
| 02:11:26 | <zq> | > compare "a" "abcd" -- do you mean to say that this result alone is enough to know the definition of Ord [a]? |
| 02:11:28 | <lambdabot> | LT |
| 02:11:51 | <c_wraith> | No, I also need to see instance Ord a => Ord [a] |
| 02:12:00 | <c_wraith> | those two pieces of information are sufficient |
| 02:12:15 | <zq> | sure, but that misses the point of my original question |
| 02:12:27 | <zq> | "ie could there be an Ord a for which GT makes more sense instead" |
| 02:12:49 | <zq> | what if i didn't want a lexicographic sort |
| 02:12:57 | <c_wraith> | then you need to use a different type |
| 02:13:16 | <c_wraith> | a different type can do different things |
| 02:13:43 | <zq> | actually, the saner thing to do would be to not even use `compare` for that |
| 02:15:53 | <zq> | in any case, the definition for Ord [a] seems arbitrary |
| 02:18:43 | <c_wraith> | in some sense, yes. in another sense, it's the only definition that gives strings the expected ordering. Of course, that's just more evidence type String = [Char] is bad |
| 02:19:10 | <wz1000> | Has anyone noticed that System.IO.MMap.mmapFileByteStringLazy is horribly broken? |
| 02:19:32 | <wz1000> | try reading a file greater than 500k and printing it out |
| 02:19:36 | <c_wraith> | I don't think anything with that name can be not broken |
| 02:19:51 | <c_wraith> | memory-mapped IO is a bad fit for immutability |
| 02:20:35 | <wz1000> | ByteStrings are just mutable buffers we pretend are immutable |
| 02:20:53 | <c_wraith> | No, we don't just pretend. we tell GHC |
| 02:21:09 | <c_wraith> | and when you lie to GHC, it's your fault when things break |
| 02:21:20 | <wz1000> | anyway, can someone test this out on their machine? |
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| 02:22:34 | <wz1000> | I'm pretty sure the problem is not in the bytestring interface |
| 02:23:01 | <wz1000> | its that the pointers returned by mmapFileForeignPtrLazyChunk are bogus |
| 02:24:21 | <wz1000> | the first chunk seems to be fine, the rest are random pointers into memory |
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| 02:30:33 | <c_wraith> | that use of castIntToPtr looks like undefined behavior |
| 02:32:23 | <c_wraith> | yeah, it's passing it to C code. Casting back the other direction in the C code is definitely UB |
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| 03:16:11 | <jaykru> | does anybody here have experience with crazy linker errors on arch linux? i've already enabled dynamic linking in my cabal config as suggested by the arch wiki. here's the full error i'm getting when building my project: https://commie.club/m/anNH |
| 03:16:45 | <jaykru> | i have sdl2 and sdl2_gfx installed |
| 03:20:02 | <sclv> | my recommendation is always not to use arch’s ghc and cabal and just install a clean normal toolchain with ghcup |
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| 03:20:48 | <monochrom> | jaykru: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Haskell#Problems_with_linking |
| 03:20:59 | <monochrom> | Oh nevermind, you already know. |
| 03:21:18 | <monochrom> | Yeah please use ghcup and discard archlinux's packages. |
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| 04:59:11 | <koz_> | I would third that suggestion. |
| 04:59:15 | <koz_> | Just use ghcup. |
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| 05:23:45 | <gaff> | is cabal integration with hpc broken in version 3.4? |
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| 05:33:43 | <jaykru> | thanks for the suggestions folks! |
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| 05:34:20 | <jaykru> | i'll give ghcup a try |
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| 05:58:01 | <jaykru> | turns out my problem wasn't necessarily arch's fault, I think the packaged version of sdl_gfx is just too new for the haskell bindings |
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| 12:23:56 | <freegraph> | Just started learning haskell from learn you a haskell. It mentions that appending a list to list is slow, but why is that a case? Can't haskell simply store the pointer to the end of list, and use that to append another list? |
| 12:27:09 | <exarkun> | freegraph: How is a Haskell list represented? |
| 12:27:33 | <freegraph> | Per my understanding, it must be a linked list |
| 12:27:48 | <freegraph> | https://www.haskelltutorials.com/guides/haskell-lists-ultimate-guide.html also says so |
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| 12:28:33 | <exarkun> | freegraph: Notably, a forward singly-linked list |
| 12:28:50 | <exarkun> | freegraph: How do you know when you're at the end? |
| 12:29:46 | <freegraph> | Can't it maintain a tail pointer? Everytime a new node is added, make next of tail to the new one, and then update tail to the new one |
| 12:30:10 | <exarkun> | freegraph: What would that "update" look like? |
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| 12:30:50 | <exarkun> | freegraph: Would it be an in-place modification to an existing value? |
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| 12:31:37 | <freegraph> | A psuedocode would be like this. tail.next = newnode. tail = newnode |
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| 12:31:59 | <exarkun> | freegraph: How do you change a value in-place in Haskell? |
| 12:32:05 | <freegraph> | Got it! Thanks! |
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| 12:32:39 | <freegraph> | It will take time to get used to this! |
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| 12:33:58 | <exarkun> | :) |
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| 12:34:26 | <gehmehgeh> | exarkun: To be fair, there are things like Data.IORef ;) |
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| 12:35:24 | <exarkun> | gehmehgeh: To be sure |
| 12:36:14 | <gehmehgeh> | One can -- with a bit of handwaving -- basically change values "in-place" (for example, how else do you get user input etc). But that's not how things like the list type work |
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| 12:45:54 | <ski> | appending to list is not slow, in the sense that it just takes the expected amount of time, for a single-linked list. there's no way around chasing that chain of tails (except by switching to a different data structure). however, *repeatedly* appending to a list can be argued to be slower than one would initially expect, in the sense that if each append is done individually, you'll repeatedly be traversing |
| 12:46:00 | <ski> | that list spine to the end, as opposed to batching it, only traversing once, adding all the stuff to the end in one go |
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| 12:48:23 | ski | . o O ( "Schlemiel the painter's algorithm" -- "Back to Basics" by Joel Spolsky in 2001-12-11 at <https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2001/12/11/back-to-basics/> ) |
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| 12:49:47 | <liyang> | freegraph: fast appends is not what the singly-forward linked-list type is suited for. If that's an issue you'd really want a different data structure. Just try to understand how they work from a pedagogical point-of-view for now. |
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| 12:52:34 | <ski> | (to avoid this problem of repeatedly adding to the end getting you quadratic instead of the expected linear complexity, one can workaround this by instead adding to the front (prepending), and then, at the end of a processing, do a final reverse (in case the order is important). or, one can sometimes rephrase the processing to naturally add (shorter pieces) to the front instead. sometimes it may be nicer |
| 12:52:40 | <ski> | with an accumulator. sometimes it's instead nicer writing it in direct style. one can also consider switching to "different lists", or to another data structure (like `Seq')) |
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| 12:53:28 | <ski> | (er, "difference lists", rather) |
| 12:54:02 | <gehmehgeh> | often called "dlists" |
| 12:54:16 | <gehmehgeh> | There's also a ready-made DList type, if I remember correctly |
| 12:54:38 | <gehmehgeh> | exarkun: but that's for later, really. |
| 12:55:24 | <freegraph> | ski, So appending two lists in quadratic? I thought it just appends the head of second list to tail of previous one. |
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| 12:56:07 | <ski> | first you should understand the difference in association of list append, and how that causes a difference in complexity. and how that's related to accumulator vs. direct style |
| 12:56:15 | <ski> | freegraph : no, that's not what i said |
| 12:56:27 | <exarkun> | gehmehgeh: I didn't bring it up :) |
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| 12:56:48 | <gehmehgeh> | exarkun: sorry, I meant freegraph |
| 12:56:58 | <ski> | freegraph : `as ++ bs' is linear in the length of `as' (the length of `bs' doesn't matter) |
| 12:57:54 | <freegraph> | ski, ok. Got it. So if we take all values of bs separately, then it would be quadratic in length of bs. |
| 12:58:14 | <ski> | freegraph : however, consider `as ++ (bs ++ (cs ++ ds))'. this will traverse `as', and traverse `bs', and `cs', in order to perform the three appending operations. so if the lengths of `as',`bs',`cs',`ds' are `k',`l',`m',`n', then the expected time for this is `k + l + m' |
| 12:58:28 | <freegraph> | Yes |
| 12:59:33 | <ski> | freegraph : however, compare this with `((as ++ bs) ++ cs) ++ ds'. this will first traverse `as'. next it'll traverse (the copy of) `as', in addition to also traversing `bs'. next it'll again traverse (copies of) `as',`bs', and also `cs'. so the steps here are `k + (k + l) + (k + l + m)' |
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| 13:00:31 | <ski> | so, the right-associated nesting of `++' wins over the left-associated nesting (which is unexpectedly quadratic, in the number of lists) |
| 13:01:03 | <freegraph> | Makes sense now, thanks! |
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| 13:02:03 | <ski> | freegraph : now, if you have a function `foo', whose recursive case looks something like `foo (...) = foo (...) ++ stuff', then this will actually cause `(((...) ++ stuff2) ++ stuff1) ++ stuff0', left-associated, which is bad. similarly, if you have an accumulator, like 'foo (...) acc = foo (...) (acc ++ stuff)', this will cause a similar problem |
| 13:02:47 | <ski> | while `foo (...) = stuff ++ foo (...)' or `foo (...) acc = foo (...) (stuff ++ acc)' won't have this left-associatedness problem |
| 13:03:12 | <ski> | (and `foo (...) = foo (...) ++ foo (...)' will have this problem, for the right recursive call, but not for the left one) |
| 13:03:53 | <ski> | you should be on the lookout for such potential sources of unreasonably inefficient list generations |
| 13:05:29 | <ski> | "So if we take all values of bs separately, then it would be quadratic in length of bs." -- yes, if we actually were to take each `b' from `bs' at a time, and append ("snoc") it at the end. now, this is'nt what `as ++ bs' does (it "batches" all these individual appends together). however, the same problem can reoccur on a larger scale, as i outlined above |
| 13:07:15 | <freegraph> | In case of foo () = foo () ++ foo (), I guess the compiler will be smart enough to do the right thing? |
| 13:07:21 | <ski> | no |
| 13:08:36 | <ski> | you probably should switch to d-lists or accumulator there, essentially doing `foo x = fooAppend x [] where ...; fooAppend (...) = fooAppend (...) . fooAppend (...)' |
| 13:09:51 | <ski> | so `++' on `[a]'s is replaced by `.' on `[a] -> [a]'s. if the base case was `foo (...) = [x,y,z]', then the new base case will be `foo (...) = ([x,y,z] ++)', aka `foo (...) = (x:) . (y:) . (z:)' |
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| 13:10:43 | <ski> | or, we can express the same `fooAppend' explicitly (with an accumulator) as `fooAppend (...) acc = [x,y,z] ++ acc' for the base case, and `fooAppend (...) acc = fooAppend (...) (fooAppend (...) acc)' for the recursive case |
| 13:12:28 | <ski> | exercise (in case you've seen custom data types yet ..), take `data Tree a = Leaf a | Branch (Tree a) (Tree a) deriving Show', and define `flatten :: Tree a -> [a]' to give the list of all the elements of the tree. both give a naïve definition (having the above efficiency problem), then give at least two versions that don't (along the two variants of `fooAppend' above) |
| 13:12:51 | <ski> | then, do the same again, but for `data Tree a = Tip | Node (Tree a) a (Tree a) deriving Show' instead |
| 13:12:58 | <liyang> | In situations where you know the length of the list will be limited (to say ~10 elements), it'll still probably be faster than something more sophisticated. For anything much longer, you need think about how you're producing and/or consuming the list. |
| 13:13:07 | <ski> | freegraph : in case you want some more practice ^ |
| 13:13:44 | <freegraph> | Not yet there. But I'll try this later |
| 13:13:49 | <ski> | yes. often the right solution is to rethink, and possibly change data structure |
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| 13:17:26 | <liyang> | Rethink and _benchmark_. Trust but _verify_. &c. &c. |
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| 14:19:00 | <ij> | can I link to a section in haddock? |
| 14:21:05 | <ij> | point to a section from the module exports marked by (-- * section header) from a definition |
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| 14:38:11 | <connrs> | /set irc.look.buffer_switch_autojoin off |
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| 14:39:50 | <liyang> | ij: yes http://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.15.0.0/docs/Data-List.html#g:2 |
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| 14:40:07 | <liyang> | connrs: maybe you meant /DISCO ? |
| 14:40:12 | <ij> | liyang, from the docs themselves, that is |
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| 14:41:17 | connrs | slowly closes down all IRC accounts in shame and goes to live in the woods making pottery and weaving wicker baskets for the rest of time |
| 14:42:04 | <liyang> | Oh hum, probably not reliably—you could try to guess what Haddock will number your section perhaps. Although with the recent (last few years) Markdown extensions may give you some other options, I don't know. |
| 14:43:03 | <juri_> | connrs: you can attone. you just need to write a haskell library that gets over a thousand stars on github. |
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| 19:24:46 | <infinity0> | does anyone know of any experimental work to make it possible to (e.g.) define unlifted functors, of kind (TYPE rep -> TYPE rep -> Constraint) ? |
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| 19:36:50 | Alleria | is now known as Guest62988 |
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| 23:58:22 | <dmj`> | Does microlens not have uniplate support? |
| 23:59:10 | <dmj`> | maybe its too "micro" for that |
All times are in UTC on 2021-04-17.