Logs on 2021-04-28 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 01:04:26 | <shapr> | I think I figured it out. My theory is that graph reduction hardware needs low latency memory because the graph can be reduced in parallel. That means the next nodes you want to reduce probably aren't in cache, you don't have data locality working in your favor. |
| 01:05:04 | <shapr> | I think that means a graph reduction system would end up as tiles, with CPUs between slabs of RAM |
| 01:06:03 | <shapr> | I think I need to read SPJ's Implementation of Functional Programming Languages next? Any other suggested references? |
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| 01:47:51 | <justsomeguy> | I don't have any reasonable suggestions, but I had a dream where memristors where used to create digital nuerons in an electronic brain that was a graph reduction machine once. |
| 01:49:43 | <justsomeguy> | That was weird. |
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| 01:53:16 | <ski> | shapr : dunno, maybe Philip J. Koopman's (Ph. D. thesis) "An Architecture for Combinator Graph Reduction (TIGRE)" in 1990 at <https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/tigre/index.html> ? |
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| 06:04:02 | <cheater> | shapr: if you can reduce the graph in parallel then you don't want low latency memory. you want high bandwidth memory. |
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| 06:04:29 | <cheater> | shapr: just like a gpu, its extremely wide architecture optimizes for throughput |
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| 06:04:46 | <cheater> | any latency at the start of the data burst is insignificant, since the transfer is so long-lived. |
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| 06:06:03 | <Axman6> | surely that depends on the parallelism of the problem though. like a hash algorithm with intentionally not be very wide |
| 06:06:12 | <Axman6> | will* |
| 06:07:07 | <cheater> | if it's not wide, how can it be parallelizable? |
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| 06:08:04 | <cheater> | wide here stems from the fact that you'll be performing the same computation on different data in a large amount of parallel instances. a million parallel threads or whatever. a thousand. |
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| 06:08:28 | <cheater> | if you can't make it perform this many parallel threads, then you've hit the limit of that algorithm's parallelization |
| 06:08:41 | <Axman6> | sure, but that only works if that's your problem. |
| 06:08:48 | <Axman6> | yeah |
| 06:09:04 | <cheater> | i've just described all parallelizable problems |
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| 06:09:30 | <cheater> | if you need low latency then at some point you have a serial algorithm with dependence on causality |
| 06:09:48 | <cheater> | which means you've hit the limit of parallelization |
| 06:09:56 | Axman6 | shakes fist angrily at time |
| 06:10:18 | <cheater> | it's not time |
| 06:10:20 | <cheater> | it's just time's arrow |
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| 06:32:10 | <[exa]> | cheater: you probably need to add some energy limits, this way you could parallelize all NP problems sufficiently to be solved in P |
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| 07:22:30 | <olle> | Does Haskell deal with division by 0? |
| 07:22:35 | <olle> | Throwing error or exception? |
| 07:22:54 | <olle> | Wait, it's on google... ^^ |
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| 07:24:13 | <hc> | > 1 / 0 |
| 07:24:15 | <lambdabot> | Infinity |
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| 07:24:40 | <hc> | > :t 1 / 0 |
| 07:24:42 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘:’ |
| 07:24:51 | <hc> | :t 1 / 0 |
| 07:24:52 | <lambdabot> | Fractional a => a |
| 07:25:01 | <olle> | Infinity, eh? Hm. |
| 07:25:24 | <olle> | Does that mean Haskell can express totality? That is, guaranteed to return on every value? |
| 07:28:08 | <opqdonut> | no |
| 07:28:33 | <opqdonut> | you can always use `undefined` to blow up any computation |
| 07:28:39 | <opqdonut> | or `fix id` for an infinite loop |
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| 07:29:24 | <letmein> | if it were, then haskell wouldn't be turing complete, assuming i understand the question correctly |
| 07:29:47 | <maerwald> | ? |
| 07:30:06 | <maerwald> | expressing totality /= everything must be total |
| 07:30:23 | <olle> | Right |
| 07:30:25 | <olle> | opqdonut: thanks |
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| 07:30:38 | <maerwald> | F* can express totality |
| 07:30:45 | <olle> | As can Koka, in fact. |
| 07:30:53 | <maerwald> | liquidhaskell too |
| 07:31:05 | <letmein> | ah ok. my bad |
| 07:31:07 | <maerwald> | to some degree I think |
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| 07:34:32 | <olle> | Is there another word for "weak" totality, when it's guaranteed to act on all of the domain? |
| 07:34:40 | <olle> | E.g. not missing a case |
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| 07:35:13 | <opqdonut> | isn't that just totality? at least if "to act on" means "to terminate" |
| 07:35:21 | <opqdonut> | or what do you mean? |
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| 07:37:12 | <olle> | opqdonut: You can have a function that acts on all cases, but one case throws an exception --> no totality |
| 07:37:58 | <opqdonut> | how's that different from a non-total function that throws an exception on one case? |
| 07:38:22 | <opqdonut> | or perhaps you mean something like "guaranteed to terminate with a value or an exception" |
| 07:38:32 | <opqdonut> | that's perhaps even harder to track in a compiler than normal totality |
| 07:38:49 | <olle> | Instead of totality, something like "no case missed" |
| 07:39:10 | <opqdonut> | what I'm trying to say is how can you distinguish a "missed case" from some other reason for nontotality? |
| 07:39:18 | <opqdonut> | arguably every nontotal function merely "misses a case" |
| 07:39:21 | <olle> | Good question |
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| 07:41:53 | <maerwald> | GHC warns you if you're not matching on a value |
| 07:42:23 | <maerwald> | that says nothing about whether the function terminates |
| 07:42:42 | <opqdonut> | yeah, and it's only a local check |
| 07:42:55 | <opqdonut> | calling head doesn't generate a warning :) |
| 07:43:13 | <curiousgay> | I need help identifying which part of code for boggle https://pastebin.com/raw/yxC9Wvzm is really slow, I was sure lazy evaluation would take care of that (that terrible naming of findWord is not mine) |
| 07:45:18 | <olle> | maerwald: right, you have this check. |
| 07:45:58 | <olle> | maerwald: what do you call it? exhaustiveness? |
| 07:46:06 | <olle> | so maybe that's the word to use, not "totality" |
| 07:46:13 | <curiousgay> | I should be more concrete that's just the code for checking whether the word is on board or not |
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| 07:48:22 | <curiousgay> | maybe I'll solve that myself after taking a sleep... |
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| 07:51:11 | <maerwald> | olle: yes, exhaustiveness |
| 07:51:58 | <olle> | So you can say a function is exhaustive on its input...? Or is that weird wording? |
| 07:52:05 | <olle> | Instead of total. |
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| 08:13:45 | <hc> | exhaustive is the proper term for it, I think |
| 08:14:02 | <nshepperd2> | i think exhaustiveness is more a property of source code than functions |
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| 08:15:49 | <nshepperd2> | if you have a function that has one case defined as 'undefined' that's semantically the same as a function with the case left out, it just indicates that the programmer did it on purpose |
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| 08:54:16 | <carbolymer> | Is there any tool out there to read .prof from profiler more efficiently? I have a 50MB file with 99% of zeroes |
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| 08:56:40 | <kuribas> | carbolymer: firegraph? |
| 08:57:04 | <kuribas> | well flamegraph: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-prof-flamegraph |
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| 08:58:07 | <carbolymer> | Ooh I was looking for STH similar in Haskell world, kuribas, thanks! I'll check this |
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| 09:30:43 | <wmacmil> | if i run `readProcess "ls" ["*jpg"] ""` i get the exception `ls: cannot access '*jpg': No such file or directory` |
| 09:31:31 | <wmacmil> | why is this an incorrect arguement by the readProcess standard when `ls *.jpg` works just fine from the command line |
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| 09:32:08 | <Rembane> | wmacmil: Which readProcess are you using? |
| 09:32:22 | <wmacmil> | System.Process |
| 09:32:31 | <themk> | It's because it doesn't do glob expansion. |
| 09:32:35 | <themk> | That is normally done by your shell. |
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| 09:33:01 | <wmacmil> | themk: thank you, any suggested fix? |
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| 09:33:26 | <merijn> | wmacmil: Go through the shell |
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| 09:33:45 | <themk> | Yes, use a shell, or use the Glob library. |
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| 09:35:20 | <tdammers> | Note that using a shell is a security minefield, you have to be super careful not to introduce shell injection vulnerabilities. If you decide you want to do it, I recommend not having anything dynamic in your shell command at all. |
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| 09:37:13 | <merijn> | I recommend not going through the shell ;) |
| 09:37:24 | <themk> | Yes, if you do need to glob, the Glob library is really quite good, and will cause less headaches. |
| 09:37:26 | <Mrbuck> | hi in haskell do we write all things as modules and import them? |
| 09:37:30 | <wmacmil> | thanks! |
| 09:37:36 | <Mrbuck> | all things as in every function* |
| 09:37:51 | <merijn> | Mrbuck: As opposed to? |
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| 09:40:24 | <Mrbuck> | merijn: not opposing anything just want to know |
| 09:40:36 | <merijn> | No, I meant: "What's the alternative?" |
| 09:40:42 | <Cale> | wmacmil: You could also read the directory contents in Haskell using getDirectoryContents, and then filter that, like filter (isExtensionOf "jpg") |
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| 09:41:33 | <Cale> | (that isExtensionOf function is in System.FilePath in the filepath package, and getDirectoryContents is in System.Directory in directory) |
| 09:42:22 | <wmacmil> | @Cale, thanks |
| 09:42:22 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
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| 09:55:08 | <Arahael> | Mrbuck: Unlike some languages, we don't put *everything* into the one file if we can avoid it. :) |
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| 09:59:02 | <Mrbuck> | Arahael: hmm, but I might be ony person who thinks so many modules == unreadable and new language |
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| 10:00:59 | <DigitalKiwi> | who's going to find the meme |
| 10:01:14 | <Arahael> | Mrbuck: You'll change your mind once you start seeing files that are 10's of thousands of lines long. |
| 10:01:29 | <Arahael> | I think I had one somewhere that was more than 30,000 lines. |
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| 10:04:51 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://twitter.com/tritlo/status/1379268344138891273/photo/2 i found this which i had not seen before and it's pretty much it lol |
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| 10:06:31 | <Mrbuck> | Arahael: I agree on that context but writing 15 lines and creating modules for even variable and constants is good? |
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| 10:07:55 | <Arahael> | Mrbuck: There isn't enough context to judge that. In general, I would say that a file should contain one component, concept, or idea. |
| 10:07:56 | <Cale> | Mrbuck: Obviously, you should organise modules so that they're logical and have collections of related things in them. |
| 10:08:32 | <Mrbuck> | Arahael: Cale okay got it |
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| 10:18:40 | <DigitalKiwi> | probably a more efficient way to find it than just scrollign edwardk twitter... anyway basically this but imports https://pics.me.me/the-maths-dehhddeepleihing-import-keras-say-hello-to-keras-56785635.png |
| 10:20:57 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://twitter.com/themattchan/status/911451409924493314?s=20 |
| 10:21:13 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://twitter.com/ArchKiwi/status/1240735739945594884?s=20 |
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| 10:22:14 | <yushyin> | DigitalKiwi: https://twitter.com/impurepics/status/1256632223027146755 this one? |
| 10:22:26 | <DigitalKiwi> | yes! ty |
| 10:22:45 | <Philonous> | Is there consensus on the use of circular dependencies using {-# SOURCE -#} pragmas and .hs-boot files? Ok to use occasionally? Code smell? Avoid at all costs? |
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| 10:23:25 | <maerwald> | I use it when I see fit and don't care what others think |
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| 10:24:41 | <Philonous> | Well, it's not so much that I want to avoid the code-aesthetics police and more that I'm wondering if there are downsides that I'm just not seeing right now. |
| 10:26:17 | <DigitalKiwi> | i have never used it and care what others think |
| 10:26:26 | <DigitalKiwi> | seems there's no consensus |
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| 10:28:54 | <Philonous> | But I also care what others think since I'm not writing that code for myself. |
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| 10:29:07 | <maerwald> | There's a maintenance overhead |
| 10:29:44 | <maerwald> | And it, obviously, causes a circular dependency, which can, when overused, make reasoning about a module harder. Although I think that's a pretty minor point. |
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| 10:46:40 | <Philonous> | OK, thanks! |
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| 11:01:40 | <aveltras> | does anyone successfully use haskell-language-server on a stack "monorepo" (stack.yaml in root directory and multiple subdirectories with each their package.yaml) ? It kinda works but my laptop is constantly hitting max ram usage and when using "haskell-language-server" on the project to check it without ide usage, it seems to be building the subpackages multiple times |
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| 11:02:47 | <joel135> | stack install lens-tutorial; stack ghci; import Control.Lens.Tutorial; Could not find module ‘Control.Lens.Tutorial’; What gives? |
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| 11:06:04 | <merijn> | iirc "stack install" isn't what you want |
| 11:06:16 | <merijn> | But then, I don't use stack, so what do I know :p |
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| 11:07:23 | <joel135> | It claimed to install lens-tutorial, at least. |
| 11:07:58 | <maerwald> | stack repl --package lens? |
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| 11:10:55 | <raehik> | When annotating data constructors, what's the Haddock syntax to latch a comment onto a given constructor? |
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| 11:11:37 | <raehik> | I use '-- | blabla' myself, but I've seen '-- ^ blabla'? and I rarely check the actual Haddock output lol |
| 11:11:40 | <merijn> | raehik: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/broadcast-chan-0.2.1.1/docs/src/BroadcastChan.Internal.html#Direction |
| 11:12:07 | <raehik> | merijn: if I put the comment on a newline, above or below? |
| 11:12:07 | <merijn> | raehik: The difference is that '-- |' must come *before* and '-- ^' after |
| 11:12:13 | <raehik> | Bahahaha. I thought so. |
| 11:12:32 | <merijn> | raehik: And I don't think '-- |' works for function arguments and might not work for constructors? |
| 11:13:26 | <raehik> | ahh, thanks |
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| 11:34:07 | <joel135> | maerwald: nothing changed |
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| 11:44:29 | ← | faustind parts (~faustin@M014008067225.v4.enabler.ne.jp) () |
| 11:44:46 | <maerwald> | that's depressing |
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| 11:54:06 | <merijn> | maerwald: "repl --package" is cabal |
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| 11:58:02 | <maerwald> | in cabal it's --build-depends |
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| 11:59:53 | <merijn> | oh, right |
| 12:00:15 | <maerwald> | I'm not even sure what --package does there |
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| 12:04:14 | <maerwald> | hmm, git does weird stuff to stdout... my fancy stdout printers don't work well with it |
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| 12:06:31 | <merijn> | maerwald: How did you implement you fancy printers? |
| 12:07:20 | <maerwald> | merijn: https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs/-/blob/master/lib/GHCup/Utils/File.hs#L147 |
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| 12:08:11 | <merijn> | maerwald: What kinda weirdness are you seeing? |
| 12:08:49 | <merijn> | <- has a hunch |
| 12:08:50 | <maerwald> | commands that exit quickly don't get shown, some lines persist that shouldn't |
| 12:09:23 | <merijn> | maerwald: You're not manually setting buffering, I guess? |
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| 12:10:26 | <merijn> | maerwald: terminal/pty file descriptors are (by default) in line buffered mode, file descriptors that are *not* terminals (such as pipes) are, by default, block buffered |
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| 12:11:17 | <merijn> | maerwald: Also "forkProcess" <- RIP your sanity |
| 12:11:50 | <maerwald> | who said I'm sane? |
| 12:12:27 | <merijn> | I'm 99.9% certain it's *literally* impossible to use forkProcess correctly/safely |
| 12:12:34 | <merijn> | Actually, scratch that |
| 12:12:45 | <maerwald> | no good library to read stdout of a subprocess as a stream |
| 12:12:50 | <merijn> | 99.999% certain if your code uses the threaded RTS and/or multiple Haskell threads |
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| 12:13:47 | <merijn> | maerwald: What's wrong with createProcess and using Handles? |
| 12:14:28 | <maerwald> | don't like them |
| 12:14:35 | <merijn> | tbh, the fact that unix exports forkProcess is down-right negligent |
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| 12:41:02 | <thblt> | I have a (finite) bunch of objects that link to each other (let's say books and their authors). Is it reasonable/idiomatic to store the objects in some sort of indexed container (eg `Map Int Object`) and have those links represented as indexes? Eg newtype ObjectId = Int; data Book = Book { author :: ObjectId, title :: String}? (The actual model is more complex, I would just like to know if it makes sense) |
| 12:41:25 | <merijn> | "maybe"? |
| 12:41:30 | <thblt> | Ha. |
| 12:41:43 | <thblt> | :) |
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| 12:43:57 | carbolymer | just found memleak |
| 12:44:23 | <carbolymer> | Someone used mapConcurrently spawning a gazillion of threads :/ |
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| 12:44:40 | <merijn> | carbolymer: Yes, mapConcurrently doesn't do any limiting |
| 12:44:56 | <merijn> | That's why I wrote my own version(s) :p |
| 12:45:05 | <carbolymer> | Any ideas how can I limit nr of concurrent threads? |
| 12:45:26 | <carbolymer> | merijn: nice, is it open-source?;) |
| 12:46:14 | <merijn> | carbolymer: Yes, which is another way of saying "It doesn't support 9.0 or 9.2 yet, because I don't have time to update all my packages until, like, June :p) |
| 12:46:18 | <merijn> | carbolymer: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/broadcast-chan-0.2.1.1/docs/BroadcastChan.html#g:4 |
| 12:46:27 | <carbolymer> | Thx! |
| 12:46:45 | <merijn> | carbolymer: Got a conduit version too: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/broadcast-chan-conduit-0.2.1.1/docs/BroadcastChan-Conduit.html |
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| 12:58:30 | <tomsmeding> | thblt: you're losing type safety that way, since you're mapping to a generic Object, not a Book or an Author specifically. Whether that's okay depends on your application :) |
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| 12:58:54 | <tomsmeding> | If that's okay, I think it's a fine way of making a very flexible data structure for this purpose |
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| 13:02:16 | <thblt> | tomsmeding: Thanks. I was planning of using phantom types to mitigate the first issue. |
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| 13:14:16 | <haasn> | There's a name for the concept of abstractions like `data Widget = Widget { doSomething :: Bool -> Widget, doSomethingElse :: Int -> Widget }`, as opposed to e.g. `class Widget w where doSomething :: w -> Bool -> w; doSomethingElse :: w -> Int -> w` |
| 13:14:20 | <haasn> | What is the name for this first type of design? |
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| 13:28:58 | <sshine> | haasn, good question. |
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| 13:30:14 | <sshine> | haasn, I think that could depend on how you deal with w. but one very general term would be type-parameterised? |
| 13:30:30 | <merijn> | haasn: I usually call it "OO Haskell" :p |
| 13:31:13 | <merijn> | Because it basically behaves like OO interfaces |
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| 13:33:34 | <sshine> | haasn, if you have something like 'data Widget w = Widget { doSomething :: w Bool, doSomethingElse :: Int -> w () }', you'd have a Barbie. :-D http://hackage.haskell.org/package/barbies -- i.e., if your type parameter is specifically a unary type-constructor. |
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| 13:36:07 | <haasn> | Hmm maybe I'm wrong and there isn't a term. I just have this weird "at the tip of my tongue" feeling regarding to it being a thing with a name |
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| 13:47:11 | <sshine> | haasn, there's quite a lot of concepts that are born from having an ADT or a GADT take a type parameter in some specific way. |
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| 13:50:09 | <sshine> | haasn, e.g. fixpoint types: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/recursion-schemes -- and monadic effect systems: https://github.com/graninas/hierarchical-free-monads-the-most-developed-approach-in-haskell#dive-in-hierarchical-free-monads |
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| 14:01:10 | ski | . o O ( presque vu ) |
| 14:01:22 | <ski> | haasn : i guess i'd call it "(recursive) OO" (to be constrasted with "existential OO") |
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| 15:01:06 | <jumper149> | How can I find the documentation on makeWrapper |
| 15:01:15 | <jumper149> | oups wrong channel srz |
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| 15:17:57 | <cdsmith> | I'm looking for something like this: data TypedVal; mkTypedVal :: Typeable a => a -> TypedVal; getTypedVal :: Typeable a => Proxy a -> TypedVal -> Maybe a. Is there a common implementation for this? |
| 15:18:17 | <shapr> | howdy cdsmith, how's life? |
| 15:18:30 | <cdsmith> | @shapr Life is alright! You? |
| 15:18:31 | lambdabot | slaps Life is alright! You? with a slab of concrete |
| 15:18:48 | <shapr> | doing well, enjoying writing Haskell all day :-) |
| 15:19:59 | <Taneb> | cdsmith: that looks a bit like Data.Dynamic |
| 15:20:11 | <cdsmith> | Oh yeah... that's almost surely right. :) |
| 15:20:16 | <cdsmith> | Ha... thanks! |
| 15:20:50 | <cdsmith> | Yes, Dynamic it is! Thanks |
| 15:21:10 | <ski> | @botsmack |
| 15:21:11 | <lambdabot> | :) |
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| 15:24:06 | <shapr> | I signed up to do a fifteen minute talk about graph reduction hardware. I expect to do ten minutes of excited hand waving about "A parallel future" with a a few slides and then a huge pile of citations at the end. |
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| 15:26:38 | <cdsmith> | shapr: That's more than I know about graph reduction hardware! |
| 15:27:00 | <ski> | shapr : did you glance at Koopmans thesis ? |
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| 15:27:58 | <shapr> | ski: yes! |
| 15:28:05 | <shapr> | that's a good suggestion, thanks! |
| 15:28:49 | <shapr> | I still don't understand enough to understand how templating works in the reduceron, but I'm finding this talk to be a great excuse to read exciting research papers |
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| 15:30:25 | <ski> | <someone> seen a couple of faculty answered the question "why are you teaching this class?" "oh I just wanted to learn about X a bit" |
| 15:30:59 | <shapr> | the big ideas are really neat though, https://www-users.york.ac.uk/~mt540/graceful-ws/slides/Stewart.pdf |
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| 15:31:51 | <shapr> | I envision hardware graph reduction as described in those slides, lots of graph CPUs with their own connections to the RAM |
| 15:32:40 | <shapr> | ski: yes, that's a great quote :-) |
| 15:33:01 | <ski> | i guess, for it to be adopted more, there'd need to be some killer application(s) |
| 15:33:17 | <ski> | (like FPS games for GPUs) |
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| 15:36:38 | <shapr> | there are killer applications, but I'm still not sure it'll ever happen |
| 15:37:28 | haasn | .oO( graph reduction on GPUs? ) |
| 15:37:37 | <shapr> | DARPA's HIVE project put up a bunch of award money for improve graph processing, but I think only one small award was actually won, and that for improved data locality |
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| 15:50:42 | <merijn> | Because no one really understands how locality affects graph processing >.> |
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| 16:20:01 | <DigitalKiwi> | what's a graph reduction |
| 16:21:12 | <shapr> | DigitalKiwi: it's an exciting fun thing! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_reduction |
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| 16:28:17 | <DigitalKiwi> | i'm eager to learn about it but too lazy to read a book |
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| 16:30:39 | <Rembane> | Graph reduction looks like how lambda calculus is evaluated. |
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| 16:59:26 | <shapr> | I want to buy a copy of SPJ's The Implementation of Functional Programming Languages, but it's $300, yow |
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| 17:01:22 | <tomsmeding> | shapr: this one? https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/1992/01/student.pdf |
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| 17:01:53 | <tomsmeding> | ah no |
| 17:02:40 | <monochrom> | I think it is better to go to https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/people/simonpj/publications/ and look for that. |
| 17:02:44 | <tomsmeding> | shapr: this one https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/uploads/prod/1987/01/slpj-book-1987.pdf |
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| 17:02:58 | <tomsmeding> | as linked from https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/the-implementation-of-functional-programming-languages/ |
| 17:02:59 | <monochrom> | While you're at it, you may also notice some other papers about graph reduction. |
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| 17:04:11 | <monochrom> | Yikes, https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/a-static-semantics-for-haskell/ has a typo, "paper" -> "apper" |
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| 17:04:22 | <monochrom> | I want an apper too. |
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| 17:05:30 | <tomsmeding> | :D |
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| 17:10:04 | <ep1ctetus> | can anyone recommend a Haskell build system that won't automatically download files from the internet? |
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| 17:12:16 | <monochrom> | I haven't tried, but if you edit $HOME/.cabal/config and delete the remote repo settings, cabal would have nowhere to download from. |
| 17:12:48 | <ep1ctetus> | monochrom: I have successfully done that with stack, but it feels like a hack |
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| 17:13:43 | <monochrom> | If you run Setup.hs, it doesn't download either. |
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| 17:15:14 | <monochrom> | A software engineering prof once asked me a question. It enlightened me and since then I have had a much lower tendency to call unforeseen usages "hacks". |
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| 17:15:45 | <monochrom> | He asked me "what do people use telephone answering machines for?" |
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| 17:16:50 | <monochrom> | Well that was before everyone had cellphones (and there were no smartphones). The equiv question today is "what do people use voice mails for?" |
| 17:17:48 | <monochrom> | The creators had in mind taking messages when the phone owner isn't around to answer the call. |
| 17:18:40 | <monochrom> | But users ended up using them for screening calls. They would be totally right at the phone and still let the machine answer the call first. If undesired caller, let the machine finish. |
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| 17:20:55 | ski | . o O ( "Don't ask to ask." ) |
| 17:20:57 | <monochrom> | Is that a life hack, or is it just very natural evolution? |
| 17:21:43 | <monochrom> | I was a smartass, so I replied the prof, "what do people use Microsoft Word for? answer: spreading VB viruses >:)" |
| 17:21:53 | <ep1ctetus> | Right, so I can see that stack was designed with the idea in mind that you would always have an internet connection, and that you wouldn't mind it downloading things without asking you |
| 17:22:25 | <wz1000> | cabal has --offline |
| 17:22:31 | <ep1ctetus> | aha! |
| 17:22:35 | <monochrom> | nice |
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| 17:31:56 | <ep1ctetus> | I see that's listed as an "undocumented field" here https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-project.html?highlight=offline#advanced-global-configuration-options |
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| 17:38:50 | <maerwald> | yes, stack is pretty lax with your bandwidth... it also may download the same git repo 20 times (if you use 20 subdirs) |
| 17:39:00 | <wz1000> | ep1ctetus: it shows up in --help |
| 17:39:27 | <maerwald> | on some repos, that caused an initial `stack build` to take 30 minutes on my PC |
| 17:39:31 | <maerwald> | while cabal was 3 |
| 17:40:31 | <ep1ctetus> | wz1000: thanks |
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| 18:36:03 | <myShoggoth> | HF April Update is posted: https://discourse.haskell.org/t/haskell-foundation-april-update/2445 |
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| 18:46:10 | <sm[m]> | +1 |
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| 19:00:14 | ski | . o O ( "Tact Filters" by Jeff Bigler in 1996,2006 at <https://www.mit.edu/~jcb/tact.html> ) |
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| 19:34:39 | <slack1256> | I am trying to steer GHC to the correct instance via overlapping instances but I am out of luck. Can anyone help me? https://pastebin.com/NYbZRfgp |
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| 19:35:17 | <slack1256> | I know it can be done without hacks, but this is for testing and I should impose extra constrains on the tested code. |
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| 19:36:46 | <slack1256> | I would like to have `myFunc (3 :: Int) = Just KeyInt` |
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| 19:38:51 | <hyperisco> | slack1256, minimally you need a constraint on your type variable for KnownKey |
| 19:39:04 | <hyperisco> | myFunc :: forall a. KnownKey a => a -> Maybe (Key a) |
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| 19:39:52 | <hyperisco> | if you have a closed set of types then you can do this with a closed type family |
| 19:40:07 | <hyperisco> | if it is an open set of types, I don't think what you are hoping for makes sense in terms of Haskell |
| 19:40:30 | <hyperisco> | because you cannot ask in Haskell if an instance does not exist for a type |
| 19:40:58 | <hyperisco> | potentially, depending on what you are trying to do, a data family may be of interest |
| 19:41:54 | <todda7> | is the mean zscore equal to 0? |
| 19:41:55 | <slack1256> | https://github.com/mikeizbicki/ifcxt |
| 19:42:12 | <slack1256> | We probably can ask if a type has an instance O.o |
| 19:43:54 | <hyperisco> | yes but that is a different question |
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| 19:46:17 | <hyperisco> | slack1256, overlapping instances dips into the negated question because it has to know if any better instance exists, which is not an open world question |
| 19:46:46 | <slack1256> | Mmmm I see |
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| 19:46:57 | <slack1256> | How would I proceed if I have closed set of types? |
| 19:47:01 | <hyperisco> | but… maybe if you use OVERLAPPABLE on the more general instance, and OVERLAPPING on the more specific one, it might work |
| 19:47:13 | <hyperisco> | you'd use a closed type family |
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| 19:47:33 | <hyperisco> | then you can map Type -> Bool |
| 19:50:20 | <hyperisco> | you'd want DataKinds |
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| 19:51:09 | <slack1256> | Mmm know this is taking advantage of your kindness, but I don't understand. Only if can/want could you give me an example? |
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| 19:51:23 | <slack1256> | *I know |
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| 19:52:02 | <hyperisco> | type family IsKnownKey a where IsKnownKey Int = True; IsKnownKey a = False |
| 19:52:17 | <hyperisco> | I potentially have misremembered the syntax |
| 19:52:32 | <slack1256> | that is the correct syntax for closed type families |
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| 19:52:44 | <hyperisco> | that is what I was attempting |
| 19:54:12 | <hyperisco> | class KnownKey a x | a -> x where knownKey :: a -> Maybe a; instance IsKnownKey a ~ x => KnownKey a True where knownKey = Just |
| 19:54:57 | <hyperisco> | oh I meant to have that constraint on the class |
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| 19:56:02 | <slack1256> | class IsKnowKey a ~ x => KnownKey a x | a -> x where ... got it. |
| 19:56:35 | <hyperisco> | that functional dependency is evident from the type family but I think you still have to tell ghc about it |
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| 19:58:57 | <slack1256> | Probably injectivity would help... |
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| 20:00:18 | <hyperisco> | the idea is that you know a so injectivity is not needed |
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| 20:00:44 | <hyperisco> | if you're having to ask "what are all the known keys?" then that is going to need a different design |
| 20:01:03 | <hyperisco> | say with type lists |
| 20:01:25 | <hyperisco> | dollars to donuts this is more work than you need to do :P |
| 20:01:58 | <slack1256> | No no, I just want to get a `Just val` if the type has an instance. No need to enumerate. |
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| 21:12:00 | <tributarian> | Has anyone here used beam with a database read replica? I am trying to understand the Haskell database ecosystem. I have an application with two database nodes, read/write and read-only. It sort of looks like I would have to handle the split at a higher level than beam and just have a connection to each node passing each one to beam depending on the nature of the operation. |
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| 21:54:21 | <__minoru__shirae> | tributarian: what do you mean by "I am trying to understand the Haskell database ecosystem." ? are you trying to find out if people implement databases in haskell, or simply use databases with haskell drivers? |
| 21:56:02 | <__minoru__shirae> | the case you described looks like a matter of interfacing with a database using a driver |
| 21:56:06 | <tributarian> | __minoru__shirae: I am trying to understand how to use databases with Haskell drivers. |
| 22:00:20 | <__minoru__shirae> | not sure what "handling the split" means in this context |
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| 22:01:38 | <tributarian> | __minoru__shirae: In this case I mean sending some queries to the primary DB node and others to the replica (such as read intensive or long running queries). |
| 22:02:30 | <tributarian> | __minoru__shirae: Some of the ORMs I have used in other languages handle sending queries to the replica automatically. |
| 22:02:52 | <__minoru__shirae> | what ORMs do that? |
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| 22:08:18 | <tributarian> | __minoru__shirae: Two examples that come to mind are Django (Python) and MikroORM (Typescript). |
| 22:09:00 | <sclv> | well haskell doesn't even really have orms |
| 22:09:10 | <sclv> | orms don't fit well into a language that doesn't have objects |
| 22:09:40 | <tributarian> | sclv: That is what I am gathering from what I have read. I just wanted to make sure I was understanding correctly. |
| 22:09:51 | <sclv> | so yes, you would tend to manage connections explicitly afaik and i don't know of anything that handles that particular pattern for you |
| 22:10:35 | <sclv> | fancy haskell db libs tend towards more construction of well typed queries, not mapping db rows precisely and bidirectionally to "objects" |
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| 22:11:24 | <tributarian> | sclv: Understood. I was getting thrown off by references to beam as being an ORM. |
| 22:11:43 | <sclv> | ormish things are paradigmatically about mutable state, and extending mutable state in an app to being outside an app too. just not a haskelly way of thinking about things |
| 22:11:49 | <sclv> | ok, sure. idk much about beam tbqh |
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| 22:12:31 | <tributarian> | Thanks for the help. |
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| 22:13:40 | <tributarian> | I definitely have a ways to go in terms of thinking of things in a Haskelly way. |
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| 22:15:12 | <__minoru__shirae> | I think the issue boils down to a question about whether the db url is global in the app or not |
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| 22:15:46 | <__minoru__shirae> | if the db url is not global, you can manually create several connections and decide which query goes to what url |
| 22:16:11 | <__minoru__shirae> | just stating the obvious here |
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| 22:17:18 | <__minoru__shirae> | to clarify: I mean whether the library allows having several db urls at the same time or not |
| 22:18:40 | <tributarian> | __minoru__shirae: Right, in this case, the library just takes a connection as an argument. You would just need to determine prior to calling it which connection you wanted to pass. |
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| 22:39:33 | <srid> | New static site generator in the block https://ema.srid.ca/ |
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| 22:53:24 | <gnumonic> | Hello Haskell IRC. Quick question: If I have a record type with a bang, e.g. data SomeRec = SomeRec {myRec :: ![SomeList]}, does the bang force the list to whnf or does it just require that the list exist? |
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| 23:06:24 | <geekosaur> | only to exist; it doesn't force the list's spine, only the first constructor |
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| 23:18:37 | <gnumonic> | thanks! |
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| 23:23:05 | <ski> | it forces to WHNF, yes |
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| 23:29:35 | <gnumonic> | er i think i mixed up nf and whnf in my question. i'm pretty sure i should have said nf. i always make that mistake with lists for some reason |
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