Logs on 2021-04-29 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 03:52:00 | <egorbelibov> | anybody using https://github.com/jschaf/hsearch (hsearch-mode) [Emacs]? |
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| 05:10:30 | <desophos> | why does `sequence` return a cross-product of a list of lists? i can intuitively understand how it works for other Monads like Maybe and Either but i'm struggling to understand what it means to collect [] actions |
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| 05:14:47 | <c_wraith> | desophos: you can think of the [] instance for monad modeling nondeterministic choice. Internally, you never know what element you'll get, just that it's going to be *something* |
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| 05:15:42 | <c_wraith> | > do { a <- [1,2] ; b <- [3,4,5] ; c <- [7, 8] ; return (a, b, c) } |
| 05:15:44 | <lambdabot> | [(1,3,7),(1,3,8),(1,4,7),(1,4,8),(1,5,7),(1,5,8),(2,3,7),(2,3,8),(2,4,7),(2,... |
| 05:16:00 | <superstar64> | is there anyway i can make cabal run be interpreted rather then compiled? |
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| 05:16:29 | <c_wraith> | desophos: you can see how each bind picks one element from the list it's pulling from in the example above |
| 05:17:11 | <c_wraith> | desophos: well, that's basically what sequence does, except instead of working on tuples, it works on arbitrary length lists. |
| 05:17:25 | <desophos> | ah ok, so it represents all possible values returned from accessing each list -- like a product type? |
| 05:17:30 | <c_wraith> | yes |
| 05:17:34 | <desophos> | interesting |
| 05:18:26 | <desophos> | the product of all possible values of each list |
| 05:18:30 | <desophos> | thanks, that makes sense! |
| 05:18:39 | <c_wraith> | cartesian product is the standard term |
| 05:19:01 | <desophos> | right, i was just trying to reconcile that with how sequence works on other Monads |
| 05:19:45 | <desophos> | the idea of combining each of the nondeterministic choices makes sense |
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| 05:20:20 | <c_wraith> | yep. it recursively binds elements from the input. in the case of the [] monad, that's a choice operation in some sense. |
| 05:21:11 | <c_wraith> | from the outside there's nothing non-deterministic about it. But from the inside, that's how it acts. You just don't know which element you'll be working with. |
| 05:22:05 | <desophos> | right, non-deterministic in the sense that it can evaluate to any of its possible values when accessed |
| 05:22:19 | <desophos> | right? |
| 05:22:24 | <c_wraith> | exactly |
| 05:22:34 | <curiousgay> | > lastDigit :: [Integer] -> Integer |
| 05:22:34 | <curiousgay> | > lastDigit = (`mod` 10) . foldr (\x y -> if y == 0 then 1 else x ^ ((y-1) `mod` 40 + 1)) 1 |
| 05:22:34 | <curiousgay> | I have an exercise to find the last digit of x1^(x2^(...)), I've made 3 different versions of working code, but they all are slower then what codewars expect from me, I have no idea how can it be faster than that |
| 05:22:36 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 05:22:36 | <lambdabot> | Variable not in scope: lastDigit :: [Integer] -> Integer |
| 05:22:36 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:11: error: <hint>:1:11: error: parse error on input ‘=’ |
| 05:23:30 | <curiousgay> | s/then/than/ |
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| 05:26:06 | <c_wraith> | superstar64: https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/ko6zgn/cabal_project_for_scripts_with_no_build_artifacts/ has a couple ideas |
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| 05:30:07 | <superstar64> | oh, so it's single file only? |
| 05:31:01 | <solidus-river> | i gotta gush for a second or two. I've been a c++ coder in gaming for about 12 years now or so. Just finished what I hope to open source come august of a decentralized mesh Augmented reality simulation protocol with foundations in zmq and I cannot fathom writing it in the time i did in a langaue aside from haskell |
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| 05:32:04 | <c_wraith> | superstar64: probably could work with multiple-file stuff, but it might be a bit weird with source directories. I don't know for sure - this doesn't look like a deeply-developed feature |
| 05:32:34 | <solidus-river> | this community and language is a true gem, the concise descriptions and low level control so far have been amazingly fruitful in design without feeling sacraficial to performance. I'm sure that will change but.. wow fellow beings, this stuff is legit cool. I love it. |
| 05:32:48 | <superstar64> | i wanted to try it because apt broke my linker, but i'll guess i'll have to fix it |
| 05:33:22 | <solidus-river> | i have to translate my prototype library into c++ and I'm dreading the task |
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| 05:33:29 | <superstar64> | also, what's the best way to format a project? i'm currently doing `ormolu -o -XTypeApplications -i `find source -type f` |
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| 05:34:15 | <superstar64> | solidus-river what's a simulation protocol? |
| 05:34:48 | <solidus-river> | superstar64, its a new type of mesh network for locality based augmented reality hosted on a mesh network of peers |
| 05:35:07 | <solidus-river> | or specifically, its a protocol specification that allows simulation between networked actors |
| 05:35:35 | <solidus-river> | and I'm being redundant but i'm also having a couple beers in celebration of end to end tests working out :\ |
| 05:35:47 | <solidus-river> | s/protocol specification/protocol/g |
| 05:36:18 | <solidus-river> | i'm shooting to open source in august for siggraph |
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| 05:37:04 | <solidus-river> | but tldr, haskell is amazeballs to work with. It's painful to go back to c++ land to make the client libs for devices / engines |
| 05:37:43 | <solidus-river> | and i'm super grateful to have the learnings from building those proto libraries in hask |
| 05:37:57 | <superstar64> | this thing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesh_networking i know nothing about networking |
| 05:38:40 | <solidus-river> | allows non-mediated set of peers to partake in an augmented reality with other peers nearby |
| 05:39:27 | <solidus-river> | i'm using the term mesh because stuff like ipfs is involved, i don't even know if thats accurate |
| 05:39:42 | <solidus-river> | but the end result is rad and i'm stoked to flush it out and share :D |
| 05:39:56 | <sshine> | sounds cool, solidus-river. |
| 05:40:29 | <sshine> | congrats on your tests succeeding. :) |
| 05:40:38 | <solidus-river> | thanks :) |
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| 05:42:10 | <superstar64> | solidus-river, do you have any recommendation where i can learn about this stuff? |
| 05:42:24 | <superstar64> | it would be nice to at least have a cursory overview |
| 05:42:37 | <solidus-river> | i've got a lot of problems around federated peers to sort out i'm hoping to steal a lot from BGM for but i'm also hoping to drop a less open network, in oss land around august |
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| 05:43:04 | <solidus-river> | superstar64, the zeromq guide has a lot of hyperbolie but also a good overview of the space |
| 05:43:47 | <solidus-river> | superstar64, there are various iot type protocols out there that are working on more general solutions but less suited for real time / coordinated AR experiences |
| 05:44:18 | <solidus-river> | i think a bunch of the larger tech firms today are working on similar projects, the thing I hope to beat them on is open sourcing it |
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| 05:45:04 | <solidus-river> | I've had the priviledge of being poached by apple / facebook for leadership roles around this area. I think the world where they own this stuff is balls though. We need like an ar www type thing built on top of existing infra |
| 05:45:42 | <solidus-river> | its criminal how little we ask of our smart devices in terms of meshing imo. but i'm not qualified to weigh in there |
| 05:45:58 | <superstar64> | i wish i had a job, i'm still in college |
| 05:46:41 | <solidus-river> | there's endless work out there |
| 05:47:13 | <solidus-river> | focus on what you want to manifest with tech vs what will pay the bills |
| 05:47:24 | <solidus-river> | imo |
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| 05:47:50 | <superstar64> | i think it depends on where you live, also i'm mostly into compiler dev, which i don't think there are many jobs for |
| 05:48:56 | <solidus-river> | ah, yeah it might. I'm from america and i consider this culture pretty brutal |
| 05:49:14 | <solidus-river> | i think in a less brutal culture i'd be more concerned about area of expertise |
| 05:49:34 | <superstar64> | i'm in suburban florida |
| 05:49:39 | <solidus-river> | but i'm pretter sure in these barrens knowing a bit of code is a ticket to decent money under the hand of those with power |
| 05:50:20 | <solidus-river> | your golden then, this country doesn't care about intelligence and doesn't educate its citizens |
| 05:50:31 | <solidus-river> | just knowing code you got income set up for you imo |
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| 05:50:57 | <solidus-river> | its terribly stupid and i should shut up |
| 05:51:11 | <solidus-river> | i'm only 30-ish and i'll regret saying all that later |
| 05:51:41 | <solidus-river> | tldr, haskell is really cool. I super respect it and those that have helped make it real and hope to contribute some of that back |
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| 05:52:38 | <solidus-river> | if your in suburban florda, live anywhere else, preferably outside of the states after the pandemic |
| 05:52:41 | <superstar64> | https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/OtherDocs/Haskell.html |
| 05:52:41 | <superstar64> | i wish more colleges though haskell so the industry would adopt it more |
| 05:53:18 | <solidus-river> | in my experience the industry doesn't care, but also gives a lot of autonomy to coders |
| 05:53:36 | <solidus-river> | so its kinda a chicken fight to get folks to consider haskell |
| 05:53:51 | <solidus-river> | and its hard because its got a name for being "haughty" or what you will |
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| 05:55:33 | <solidus-river> | I envy you, you'll probably see neural nets really impact how we think about coding |
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| 05:56:11 | <solidus-river> | and maybe even something like haskell go mainstream |
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| 06:00:33 | <solidus-river> | we should move to haskell otw, but do you think its universities who need to guide industry? |
| 06:00:51 | <solidus-river> | moving to #haskell-offtopic |
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| 07:38:09 | <desophos> | what's the recommended way to export things for testing only? i don't want to expose internal functions but i want a separate test module for quickcheck |
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| 07:39:41 | <desophos> | currently i have some quickcheck properties running with doctest in the source file so i don't have to export anything, but it doesn't feel right because they're too complex to be documentation |
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| 07:41:15 | <tomsmeding> | desophos: I believe the standard approach is to make an .Internal module that exports all you want, and have the outside-visible module export only the public interfaces |
| 07:41:37 | <tomsmeding> | i.e. that outside-visible module only contains some imports and some re-exports, no actual code |
| 07:42:03 | <Philonous> | I would export everything via »Internal« modules. Avoids abstraction inversion and allows you to test everything |
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| 07:42:52 | <desophos> | hmm ok, that makes sense. should i put them both in the same file? |
| 07:43:30 | <Philonous> | You can only have exactly one module per file |
| 07:43:39 | <tomsmeding> | (with ghc) |
| 07:43:51 | <desophos> | oh ok, thanks |
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| 07:56:39 | <nut> | is it possible to pattern match on data type? myfunc:: (MyClass a) => [a] -> ... I want to do different things on different a |
| 07:57:15 | <opqdonut> | you need type classes for that |
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| 07:58:11 | <opqdonut> | so something like `class MyFunc a where myfunc :: MyClass a => [a] -> Result; instance MyFunc Int where myfunc :: [Int] -> Result; instance MyFunc String where myfunc :: [String] -> Result` |
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| 07:58:50 | <nut> | i see |
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| 07:59:34 | <nut> | My use case is to wrap the gnu gsl lib in Haskell and need to create gsl_vector to hold different haskell types. |
| 07:59:49 | <nut> | even with the type class method, there'll be lots of repetitive code |
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| 08:09:07 | <hololeap> | nut: typeclasses essentially match on a data type |
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| 08:14:25 | <hololeap> | also note that what opqdonut suggested requires FlexibleInstances |
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| 08:40:05 | <olligobber> | so it turns out IO doesn't satisfy the laws for Alternative, in that I have f and x such that `f (x <|> empty) == pure True' and `f (empty <|> x) == pure False' |
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| 08:47:10 | <olligobber> | IO was a mistake |
| 08:48:24 | <hololeap> | % (pure True <|> empty) :: IO Bool |
| 08:48:24 | <yahb> | hololeap: True |
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| 08:48:36 | <hololeap> | % (empty <|> pure True) :: IO Bool |
| 08:48:36 | <yahb> | hololeap: True |
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| 08:49:45 | <enobayram> | What is the f and the x that you have? |
| 08:50:00 | <olligobber> | x is `fail "Error"' |
| 08:50:26 | <olligobber> | f is `((==) <$> try empty) <*>)' |
| 08:50:41 | <olligobber> | % (==) <$> (try empty :: IO (Either IOError String)) <*> try (fail "Error" <|> empty) |
| 08:50:41 | <yahb> | olligobber: True |
| 08:50:53 | <olligobber> | % (==) <$> (try empty :: IO (Either IOError String)) <*> try (empty <|> fail "Error") |
| 08:50:53 | <yahb> | olligobber: False |
| 08:51:01 | <olligobber> | oh, and the try as well |
| 08:51:17 | <olligobber> | f is `((==) <$> try empty) <*>) . try' |
| 08:52:03 | <enobayram> | I see, seems to me like the Alternative instance is at fault here |
| 08:52:54 | <olligobber> | yeah, it always goes with the second option if the first is an error |
| 08:53:55 | <olligobber> | well, not "is an error" but "produces an error" |
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| 08:54:07 | <hololeap> | % (fail "Error" <|> empty) :: IO a |
| 08:54:07 | <yahb> | hololeap: *** Exception: user error (mzero) |
| 08:54:14 | <enobayram> | If empty is supposed to be the identity element of <|>, it should be throwing an exception that <|> recognizes |
| 08:54:20 | <olligobber> | yeah |
| 08:54:22 | <hololeap> | % (empty <|> fail "Error") :: IO a |
| 08:54:22 | <yahb> | hololeap: *** Exception: user error (Error) |
| 08:54:52 | <olligobber> | % (==) <$> try (fail "mzero") <*> try empty |
| 08:54:52 | <yahb> | olligobber: ; <interactive>:152:1: error:; * Ambiguous type variable `e0' arising from a use of `=='; prevents the constraint `(Eq e0)' from being solved.; Probable fix: use a type annotation to specify what `e0' should be.; These potential instances exist:; instance Eq a => Eq (ZipList a) -- Defined in `Control.Applicative'; instance Eq (Chan a) -- Defined in `Control.Concurren |
| 08:55:06 | <olligobber> | % (==) <$> try (fail "mzero") <*> try (empty :: IO ()) |
| 08:55:06 | <yahb> | olligobber: ; <interactive>:153:1: error:; * Ambiguous type variable `e0' arising from a use of `=='; prevents the constraint `(Eq e0)' from being solved.; Probable fix: use a type annotation to specify what `e0' should be.; These potential instances exist:; instance Eq a => Eq (ZipList a) -- Defined in `Control.Applicative'; instance Eq (Chan a) -- Defined in `Control.Concurren |
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| 08:55:16 | <olligobber> | % (==) <$> try (fail "mzero") <*> (try empty :: IO IOError ()) |
| 08:55:16 | <yahb> | olligobber: ; <interactive>:154:47: error:; * Expected kind `* -> *', but `IO IOError' has kind `*'; * In an expression type signature: IO IOError (); In the second argument of `(<*>)', namely `(try empty :: IO IOError ())'; In the expression: (==) <$> try (fail "mzero") <*> (try empty :: IO IOError ()) |
| 08:55:25 | <olligobber> | % (==) <$> try (fail "mzero") <*> (try empty :: IO (Either IOError ())) |
| 08:55:26 | <yahb> | olligobber: True |
| 08:55:44 | <olligobber> | I see |
| 08:56:44 | <hololeap> | i would think that the issue lies in the difference between `fail "Error" <|> empty` and `empty <|> fail "Error"` |
| 08:57:01 | <hololeap> | maybe someone can explain why those are different |
| 08:57:34 | <enobayram> | Because <|> tries the left operand and if it throws then it tries the right operand and if that throws as well, it throws the last exception |
| 08:58:06 | <hololeap> | makes sense |
| 08:58:29 | <hololeap> | i assumed it would throw at the first error |
| 08:58:36 | <merijn> | hololeap: heh |
| 08:58:47 | <merijn> | hololeap: That'd rather defeat the point of Alternative? |
| 08:59:00 | <hololeap> | good point |
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| 08:59:54 | <olligobber> | yeah, throwing the first error is what `>>` does |
| 09:00:03 | <enobayram> | I think if empty is supposed to be the identity element of <|>, it should be throwing an exception that <|> recognizes and then throws the exception from the other operand |
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| 09:00:31 | <enobayram> | Though, even then, I think the Alternative IO instance is distasteful |
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| 09:01:04 | <enobayram> | I don't think one should swallow exceptions nilly willy like that |
| 09:01:12 | <olligobber> | probably |
| 09:01:42 | <olligobber> | though someone once asked me to write a program that wouldn't crash, so I just added `<|> print 0` to the end of main |
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| 09:03:00 | <enobayram> | What if my program is unsafeCoerce (1 :: Int) :: IO String |
| 09:03:34 | <olligobber> | % unsafeCoerce (1 :: Int) <|> pure "End" :: IO String |
| 09:03:34 | <yahb> | olligobber: "[Segmentation fault] |
| 09:03:52 | <olligobber> | wait what |
| 09:04:15 | <enobayram> | That's what you get for messing with memory :) |
| 09:04:15 | <Taneb> | Once you've segfaulted the runtime can't recover |
| 09:04:25 | <Taneb> | It's not an exception, it's a things are horribly broken |
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| 09:04:39 | <olligobber> | % unsafeCoerce (empty :: IO ()) :: Int |
| 09:04:40 | <yahb> | olligobber: 0 |
| 09:04:49 | <hololeap> | so (empty == empty) in IO, but (empty /= fail "Error") |
| 09:05:05 | <olligobber> | % unsafeCoerce (print 1 :: IO ()) :: Int |
| 09:05:06 | <yahb> | olligobber: 2199023255808 |
| 09:05:16 | <hololeap> | this doesn't seem that surprising although i suppose it would break the Alternative laws |
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| 09:05:32 | <olligobber> | % unsafeCoerce (2199023255808 :: Int) :: IO () |
| 09:05:33 | <yahb> | olligobber: |
| 09:06:04 | <olligobber> | I'm surprised that didn't seg fault |
| 09:06:15 | <olligobber> | I assume 2199023255808 is a pointer |
| 09:07:29 | <enobayram> | I don't think one can talk about any sort of reasoning in the presence of memory corruption |
| 09:07:48 | <olligobber> | no |
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| 09:08:15 | <enobayram> | for all you know unsafeCoerce (2199023255808 :: Int) :: IO () might have caused an earthquake somewhere |
| 09:08:33 | <olligobber> | I assume the developers of yahb safeguarded against that |
| 09:08:50 | <olligobber> | % readFile "/etc/passwd" |
| 09:08:50 | <yahb> | olligobber: *** Exception: /etc/passwd: openFile: does not exist (No such file or directory) |
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| 09:09:09 | <olligobber> | looks like it |
| 09:09:25 | <hololeap> | it's hard to make any assumptions in programming if we take into account hardware issues |
| 09:09:41 | <enobayram> | I'm sure that's the intension, but there's no guarantee that your corrupt program didn't just discover a zero day vulnerability in their sandbox :P |
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| 09:10:11 | <olligobber> | what you're saying is I should continue to send random numbers to yahb until I find a vulnerability? |
| 09:10:21 | <hololeap> | will your function terminate? what if the power goes out? |
| 09:10:41 | <hololeap> | olligobber: yes |
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| 09:11:03 | <enobayram> | That's a valid interpretation! Though I was rather going for the perils of unsafeCoerce |
| 09:12:38 | <olligobber> | yeah, in retrospect I'm glad I didn't test that on my own machine |
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| 09:13:01 | <maerwald> | yolo |
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| 09:14:06 | <olligobber> | I did `rm -rf ~' once, ended up just reinstalling the os from scratch |
| 09:14:21 | <enobayram> | same here! |
| 09:14:52 | <enobayram> | Some stupid build script interpreted my ~ from a previous command as the name of a file name |
| 09:15:00 | <enobayram> | so it created a file called ~ |
| 09:15:14 | <maerwald> | that's why you should always quite your filepaths |
| 09:15:29 | <maerwald> | enobayram: ~ is a shellism |
| 09:15:30 | <enobayram> | And my immediate reaction was rm -rf ~ |
| 09:15:39 | <maerwald> | it's a valid file name indeed |
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| 09:16:00 | <maerwald> | and non-shell programs that interpret ~ as HOME have a bug |
| 09:16:00 | <enobayram> | Yep, but to this day I don't know how that build script received my ~ as a literal ~ |
| 09:16:08 | <enobayram> | I thought the shell was supposed to replace it |
| 09:16:15 | <maerwald> | did you quote it? |
| 09:16:19 | <enobayram> | nope |
| 09:16:54 | <olligobber> | oh yeah, using "~" as a file name actually creates a file with that name |
| 09:17:10 | <olligobber> | uh, now to delete that file without deleting my home directory |
| 09:17:24 | <olligobber> | rm "~" |
| 09:17:33 | <maerwald> | just don't use -f :) |
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| 09:17:50 | hololeap | runs `mkdir -p ~/~/~` |
| 09:17:52 | <enobayram> | Are you brave enough to run that command now? |
| 09:18:09 | <olligobber> | I ran it and survived |
| 09:18:25 | <enobayram> | if I were implementing a shell, I'd treat having a ~ in your command while there's a file named ~ in the current directory as an error |
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| 09:18:52 | <maerwald> | that's probably going to break lots of scripts |
| 09:19:11 | <enobayram> | while saving many lives! |
| 09:19:16 | <olligobber> | yeah, having scripts that only break if you happen to have a file with a specific name would be great |
| 09:19:23 | <maerwald> | lol |
| 09:19:26 | <hololeap> | that's why "-r" is a thing |
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| 09:19:49 | <maerwald> | rm --interactive |
| 09:20:07 | <hololeap> | if ~/~ is a dir, that could be an issue |
| 09:21:16 | <maerwald> | I don't remember if -r behave correctly if you have recursive bind-mounts. At least most file managers don't |
| 09:22:04 | <hololeap> | i'm saying don't use "-r" and there will be no chance of recursively deleting your home |
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| 09:22:38 | <olligobber> | is there a way of deleting an empty directory other than -r? |
| 09:22:44 | <hololeap> | rmdir |
| 09:22:51 | <olligobber> | or rm -d |
| 09:22:57 | <enobayram> | how do you delete a non-empty directory then? |
| 09:22:58 | <olligobber> | I should probably use that instead |
| 09:23:05 | <olligobber> | delete its contents first |
| 09:23:18 | <hololeap> | rm "./~/*"; rmdir "./~/" |
| 09:23:20 | <enobayram> | what if there are non-empty directories inside? |
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| 09:23:34 | <maerwald> | enobayram: find . -type f -delete |
| 09:23:38 | <olligobber> | remove them first? |
| 09:23:49 | <maerwald> | don't run that command, lol |
| 09:24:03 | <enobayram> | and how does that save me if the directory happens to be my home directory :) |
| 09:24:06 | <hololeap> | then you write a complicated shell script, or maybe figure out why you have a complex file tree in "$HOME/~" in the first place |
| 09:24:20 | <maerwald> | enobayram: you'll still have empty directories! |
| 09:24:45 | <enobayram> | Better than nothing I guess! |
| 09:25:04 | <maerwald> | yeah, like a cleaned up room |
| 09:25:13 | <maerwald> | the doors are still there |
| 09:25:49 | <enobayram> | I think the solution is to write all software to use nothing but directory names for local storage |
| 09:25:50 | <hololeap> | more like a bunch of picture frames with nothing in them |
| 09:26:45 | <maerwald> | that could be annoying, since filename length is capped at 255 |
| 09:27:03 | <enobayram> | you just nest those directories |
| 09:27:12 | <maerwald> | yes, annoying :D |
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| 09:27:50 | <enobayram> | blablabla/blablabla is the same as blablablablablabla, unless of course "blablabla/blablabla" is a valid input to your program |
| 09:27:53 | <maerwald> | on linux, the upside is: filenames can be binary data |
| 09:28:13 | <maerwald> | so you can just dump your binary in to file names |
| 09:28:28 | <maerwald> | your shell with thank you, though |
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| 09:29:04 | <maerwald> | this might be the dawn of a new OS |
| 09:29:19 | <enobayram> | in that world, your shell would be interpreting all those directory names properly, so it would present them to you as a file system with directories and files in them |
| 09:29:35 | <hololeap> | just name everything in haskell record style: /homeHololeapDownloadsBunnies.gif |
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| 09:30:32 | <maerwald> | it should be snake case |
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| 09:31:13 | <hololeap> | :p |
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| 09:31:32 | <enobayram> | I'm glad we've arrived at a satisfactory solution |
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| 09:35:10 | <olligobber> | how about we do snake case, but instead of _ we use some other character |
| 09:35:30 | <olligobber> | something that wouldn't normally get used in file names |
| 09:35:37 | <maerwald> | ( |
| 09:35:40 | <olligobber> | maybe / |
| 09:35:44 | <maerwald> | lol |
| 09:36:12 | <yushyin> | i do like kebab-case |
| 09:36:37 | <olligobber> | hmm, if _ is snake and - is kebab, what is /? |
| 09:36:41 | <olligobber> | or . too |
| 09:36:50 | <olligobber> | pebble.case ? |
| 09:36:58 | <olligobber> | book/shelf/case? |
| 09:37:15 | <maerwald> | why limit to ascii? |
| 09:37:40 | <olligobber> | ogham case |
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| 09:38:42 | <hololeap> | bookshelf-after-an-earthquake-case |
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| 09:40:46 | <maerwald> | double__snake__case |
| 09:40:50 | <enobayram> | I'd go for bookshelf_after_an_earthquake_case |
| 09:41:07 | <enobayram> | unless we're talking about the top-facing side of the bookshelf of course |
| 09:41:25 | <olligobber> | bookshelf…after…a…fire…case |
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| 09:42:54 | <enobayram> | bookshelf!after!installing!roller!wheels!case |
| 09:43:23 | <opqdonut> | this::is::obviously::the::superior::case |
| 09:43:27 | <opqdonut> | it has history! |
| 09:43:39 | <olligobber> | oh god |
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| 09:44:39 | <maerwald> | time to write up a language proposal |
| 09:44:44 | <maerwald> | I think we're settled |
| 09:45:02 | <olligobber> | (bubble)(case) |
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| 09:47:16 | <hololeap> | % toBookshelfAfterAFire = intersperse '/' (map (const Nothing)) |
| 09:47:17 | <yahb> | hololeap: ; <interactive>:14:42: error:; * Couldn't match expected type: [Char]; with actual type: [a0] -> [Maybe a1]; * Probable cause: `map' is applied to too few arguments; In the second argument of `intersperse', namely `(map (const Nothing))'; In the expression: intersperse '/' (map (const Nothing)); In an equation for `toBookshelfAfterAFire': toBookshelfAfterAFire |
| 09:47:42 | <hololeap> | % toBookshelfAfterAFire = intercalate "/" . (map (show . const Nothing)) |
| 09:47:42 | <yahb> | hololeap: |
| 09:48:27 | <opqdonut> | oh right, let me amend my proposal to this::::is::::obviously::::the::::superior::::case |
| 09:48:35 | <opqdonut> | since : and :: are reserved, and ::: is used by many libraries |
| 09:48:44 | <olligobber> | % toBookshelfAfterAFire ["this","is","a","test"] |
| 09:48:45 | <yahb> | olligobber: "Nothing/Nothing/Nothing/Nothing" |
| 09:48:51 | <olligobber> | I see |
| 09:49:04 | <opqdonut> | we could also go with ::::: to leave some expansion room for libraries |
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| 09:52:05 | <hololeap> | i guess that should be earthquake+fire |
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| 10:00:08 | lowdude[m] | < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/wAfYwylrBClGeOzlynmOGEkz/message.txt > |
| 10:02:05 | <tomsmeding> | more∷∷superior∷∷case |
| 10:03:09 | <tomsmeding> | lowdude[m]: where does Rand come from? |
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| 10:04:25 | <lowdude[m]> | <tomsmeding "lowdude: where does Rand come fr"> I just took that over from Control.Monad.Random |
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| 10:04:45 | <lowdude[m]> | it's apparently a basic random monad |
| 10:05:04 | <tomsmeding> | I see |
| 10:05:26 | <enikar> | In this case I wrap the random generator in a State monad. |
| 10:05:37 | <tomsmeding> | lowdude[m]: fairToss >>= \coin -> case coin of { Head -> ... ; Tail -> ... } |
| 10:06:03 | <tomsmeding> | or: do coin <- fairToss ; case coin of { ... } |
| 10:06:12 | <tomsmeding> | Rand is a monad :) |
| 10:06:57 | <enikar> | is it the new interface to random values ? |
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| 10:07:31 | <tomsmeding> | "the new"? |
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| 10:07:47 | <tomsmeding> | the 'random' library is still the standard, as far as I know |
| 10:07:57 | <tomsmeding> | though 'MonadRandom' (which this comes from) I guess also works |
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| 10:10:18 | <enikar> | I use ghc 8.8.4 yet. There is no Control.Monad.Random in the random library. I steel use System.Random. |
| 10:10:36 | <lowdude[m]> | <tomsmeding "lowdude: fairToss >>= \coin -> c"> Okay thanks, I'll have a go with that. |
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| 10:20:05 | <enikar> | I found it, it's in monadrandom package. |
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| 10:34:09 | <tomsmeding> | enikar: System.Random is from the 'random' library, which happens to be a library included with a base ghc installation; but it's not in 'base' |
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| 10:50:03 | <enikar> | tomsmeding: yes. I use it sometimes. |
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| 11:02:54 | <desophos> | i use Test.QuickCheck.Gen and i'm pretty happy with it so far |
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| 11:04:10 | <desophos> | i haven't tried working with other RNG libraries though |
| 11:05:42 | <desophos> | i don't really know how much difference there is |
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| 11:15:58 | <lowdude[m]> | <lowdude[m] "Okay thanks, I'll have a go with"> i meant to reply again earlier, but i was away for a little while. so that worked, thank you! |
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| 11:37:43 | <tomsmeding> | lowdude[m]: nice :) |
| 11:44:03 | <DigitalKiwi> | if laziness is so good then how come people mention it so often without being asked |
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| 11:47:43 | <DigitalKiwi> | monochrom: ^ |
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| 12:09:29 | <nshepperd> | do they don't have to remember to do that later |
| 12:10:00 | <nitrix> | Expectations tends to lead to surprises. |
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| 12:30:33 | <timCF> | Hello! I'm using `KatipContextT` transformer for stuctural logging of my app, and it works quite well. But unfortunately part of my app which is using Esqueleto/Persistent libraries has its own opinion about logging and uses `LoggingT` under the hood. Is there any smart way to map `LoggingT` into `KatipContextT` to make all my logs looking the same way? |
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| 12:32:57 | <merijn> | timCF: Yes |
| 12:33:09 | <merijn> | LoggingT is just a function you can replac |
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| 12:33:41 | <merijn> | timCF: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/monad-logger-0.3.36/docs/Control-Monad-Logger.html#t:LoggingT |
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| 12:37:02 | <timCF> | merijn: It's now really clear how, because this function don't have any side-effect rich arguments which can define how exactly it should do logging |
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| 12:37:19 | <timCF> | In my case I'm using this function from Persistent https://hackage.haskell.org/package/persistent-postgresql-2.12.1.1/docs/Database-Persist-Postgresql.html#v:createPostgresqlPool |
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| 12:38:17 | <timCF> | It has class restriction `MonadLoggerIO m` and value can be passed to `runStdoutLoggingT` |
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| 12:39:37 | <timCF> | And I don't undestand how to map output of `createPostresqlPool` into something what `runKatipContextT` will understand |
| 12:40:07 | <timCF> | To use it instead of `runStdoutLoggingT` |
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| 12:47:12 | <merijn> | I recall overriding it for my own logging |
| 12:47:22 | <merijn> | but, tbh, I don't remember how |
| 12:47:44 | <merijn> | and I can't quickly find the relevant code |
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| 13:11:47 | <timCF> | merijn: thanks anyway! |
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| 13:17:34 | <lleb> | hello o/ i have a beginner question : i'm trying to send a post http request, with a json body. To add the body request, im using Http.Network.Simple setRequestBodyJSON : https://hackage.haskell.org/package/http-conduit-2.3.8/docs/Network-HTTP-Simple.html#v:setRequestBodyJSON |
| 13:17:35 | <lleb> | But it seems that the request i send it invalid, the server answer me with a 400. setRequestBodyJSON document talk about a flag aeson that should be enabled. I looked at the aeson hackage page, and it seems that aeson expose multiple flags. I tried all of them but it didnt fix my issue. I wonder if im doing it correctly |
| 13:18:17 | <lleb> | i added this to my stack.yaml file : |
| 13:18:18 | <lleb> | 2 flags: |
| 13:18:18 | <lleb> | + 1 aeson: |
| 13:18:19 | <lleb> | + 48 <flagname>: true |
| 13:18:38 | <lleb> | flags: |
| 13:18:38 | <lleb> | aeson: |
| 13:18:39 | <lleb> | <flagname>: true |
| 13:19:12 | <lleb> | i dont even know if my issue come from this, what is the expected behavior if i use setRequestBodyJSON without the proper flag enabled ? |
| 13:19:35 | <lleb> | i hope im asking this in the right place |
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| 13:38:00 | <tomsmeding> | lleb: can you check what exactly you're sending to the server, and if that's what you expect? |
| 13:38:57 | <tomsmeding> | lleb: also, that's not the way you set flags, I think; but in any case the 'aeson' flag is enabled by default for http-conduit, so that should be fine |
| 13:39:06 | <lleb> | i would love to, i have no clue of how i cant see or print the actual http request that is sent to the server tomsmeding |
| 13:39:17 | <lleb> | i can* |
| 13:39:49 | <lleb> | i see how to print a Request object, but that's style an haskell data structure and not an actual http request |
| 13:39:58 | <lleb> | that's still* |
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| 13:42:45 | <lleb> | im confident about what the server expect since i with a curl request i had the answer i expected, but im not aware of a tool to debug that kind of thing in haskell |
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| 13:43:49 | <lleb> | (im not the owner of the server so i cant print the incoming request from the server side) |
| 13:43:55 | <tomsmeding> | lleb: https://requestbin.com exists (make sure to click the 'public bin' link) |
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| 13:46:05 | <lleb> | tomsmeding cool, i didnt tough about that kind of solution |
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| 13:48:15 | <tomsmeding> | lleb: when something goes wrong, always look at what the data in question actually looks like :) |
| 13:48:37 | <tomsmeding> | instead of trying to imagine what it should be -- indeed, that's what you should then _compare_ it to |
| 13:48:51 | <tomsmeding> | often that produces some surprises ;) |
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| 13:49:37 | <lleb> | tomsmeding i compared my haskell request body and my curl request body. I added \ character in the haskell one ( { \"key\": value } ) and they are appearing in the final request body |
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| 13:50:36 | <tomsmeding> | lleb: is your Content-Type header correct? Are those \ characters actually sent to the server (if so, that sounds wrong -- json doesn't need backslashes)? |
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| 13:51:40 | <lleb> | tomsmeding content-type application/json; charset=utf-8 in the curl request and content-type application/json in the haskell one |
| 13:51:49 | <lleb> | i dont think that the charset part is mandatory |
| 13:51:56 | <lleb> | and yes those \ chars are sent to the server |
| 13:52:52 | <tomsmeding> | lleb: I don't think they should be sent |
| 13:53:04 | <tomsmeding> | and no the charset doesn't sound necessary usually |
| 13:53:32 | <lleb> | tomsmeding i dont think so neither and i didnt expect this behavior... |
| 13:54:08 | <lleb> | https://pastebin.com/vdQP0f2d |
| 13:54:46 | <lleb> | here is my code. I wanted to represent my request body as a string in the code, before passing it to setRequestBodyJSON, and i cant do that without adding the \ chars |
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| 13:55:48 | <tomsmeding> | lleb: are you _sure_ those \ characters are actually sent to the server? |
| 13:56:17 | <tomsmeding> | lleb: oh wait: are there " characters around your request body? |
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| 13:57:00 | <tomsmeding> | I think the library is json-encoding your json string |
| 13:57:35 | <tomsmeding> | it takes a ToJson a => a, and you're passing it a String -- which can indeed be converted to json, but that's not what you wanted |
| 13:57:42 | <lleb> | tomsmeding indeed... here is the raw body that i get in requestbin : "{\"operationName\":null,\"variables\":{},\"query\":\"{\n pages {\n list {\n title\n }\n }\n}\n\"}" |
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| 13:58:02 | <tomsmeding> | yeah |
| 13:58:36 | <lleb> | tomsmeding let finalReq = setRequestBodyJSON requestBody req |
| 13:58:41 | <lleb> | here requestBody is a string |
| 13:58:41 | <tomsmeding> | try either getting an aeson json value object and passing that to setRequestBodyJSON, or using e.g. setRequestBodyLBS with the literal json string and set the content-type manually |
| 13:59:00 | tomsmeding | has to go unfortunately |
| 13:59:02 | <tomsmeding> | good luck! |
| 13:59:05 | <lleb> | ok... i expected ToJson a => a to turn my string into a json |
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| 13:59:13 | <tomsmeding> | it did! |
| 13:59:13 | <lleb> | thanks a lot tomsmeding |
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| 13:59:25 | <tomsmeding> | but you don't want any conversion at all :p |
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| 14:21:03 | <absence> | ReaderT has the withReaderT function that can modify the type of the environment, but MonadReader only has the local function which can modify the value of the environment, but not the type. is this a limitation of how typeclasses work? would it be necessary/possible to use a different effect system to implement the ability to change the environment's type? |
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| 14:22:56 | <merijn> | absence: MonadReader can't guarantee the type is changeable |
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| 14:29:03 | <absence> | merijn: because other layers in the stack could depend on it? |
| 14:29:13 | <merijn> | Who says there is a stack |
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| 14:30:18 | <absence> | merijn: if there isn't, why wouldn't the type be changeable? |
| 14:30:56 | <geekosaur> | MonadReader says only that there's some vaguely Reader-like thing there, not that it's something one could change the type of |
| 14:31:02 | <geekosaur> | I think |
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| 14:33:07 | <merijn> | Semi-relatedly: All the typeclasses in mtl are terrible and should never be part of any public API |
| 14:33:44 | <absence> | merijn: what do you suggest instead? |
| 14:34:08 | <merijn> | for what |
| 14:35:01 | <tdammers> | my guess would be "for abstracting 'ask' beyond literally Reader / ReaderT" |
| 14:35:19 | <merijn> | "don't" |
| 14:35:27 | <merijn> | ask is part of the problem |
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| 14:36:00 | <tdammers> | ask is what Reader is all about, isn't it |
| 14:36:13 | <merijn> | Sure |
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| 14:36:40 | <merijn> | But Reader, while useful for some early prototyping, is a terrible public API |
| 14:38:25 | <merijn> | Wrap it with an application/use specific newtype (see LoggingT, for example) |
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| 14:40:28 | <absence> | a newtype for each part of the environment? |
| 14:41:09 | <merijn> | What do you mean "each part" |
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| 14:41:55 | <absence> | you used logger as one example, but there are usually other things, like a database handle, a kafka handle, some metrics stuff, etc |
| 14:42:57 | <merijn> | You define "MonadLogging", "MonadKafka" that provide you the primitives you need, then have one single type that implements all those things |
| 14:43:10 | <merijn> | The problem with MonadReader is that is overly broad |
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| 14:43:39 | <merijn> | You can only ever have exactly *one* MonadReader instance, and making that class part of your public API means your hosed when 2 APIs use MonadReader for different thing |
| 14:44:02 | <tdammers> | arguably, the "s" parameter to the MonadReader class (or "r" or whatever letter you pick) could make that distinction for you, if it weren't that typeclasses don't quite work that way |
| 14:44:12 | <merijn> | The tagless final style classes like MonadX are ok, but only if there's a sensible globally unique meaning for them |
| 14:44:51 | <tdammers> | otherwise, you could have sth like (MonadReader Foo m, MonadReader Bar m) => ..., and then instantiate that as ReaderT Foo (Reader Bar) or sth |
| 14:45:20 | <absence> | right, i see what you mean |
| 14:45:23 | <merijn> | tdammers: Right, but that's just the same as having meaningful MonadX classes |
| 14:45:28 | <merijn> | absence: Example: https://github.com/merijn/Belewitte/blob/master/benchmark-analysis/src/Sql/Core.hs#L130-L133 |
| 14:45:39 | <merijn> | absence: All my query logic is built on those 3 functions |
| 14:45:41 | <tdammers> | merijn: sure, totally agree there |
| 14:46:07 | <merijn> | absence: Whether you get those from a ReaderT, some other type or dark voodoo really isn't important to my querying logic |
| 14:46:45 | <merijn> | absence: This also makes refactoring easier |
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| 14:47:07 | <merijn> | absence: Instead of having "a specific monad stack" you just have "a type that lets me implement these primitives" |
| 14:47:43 | <merijn> | absence: most of my logic is just a single opaque newtype (that internally uses some transformers, but the fact that I do is irrelevant to the code using that type) |
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| 14:49:55 | <tdammers> | the mtl classes kind of try to give you "a type that lets me implement these primitives", it's just that the primitives are too meaning-agnostic, a bit like the Boolean Blindness problem |
| 14:49:57 | <absence> | merijn: i can see there would be benefits in general, but i'm not sure my original problem would be solvable with specific MonadX classes either. say you have some class "MonadLogger msg m" where msg is the type of whatever you want to log. while the name is less likely to clash when there are multiple apis, could the class have a function that changes the msg type? |
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| 15:04:12 | <kuribas> | yay, I can make our next service in haskell! :-) |
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| 15:33:51 | <[exa]> | kuribas: well good luck. :D |
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| 15:38:46 | <kuribas> | it'll be a small service for now, but we can make it bigger later. |
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| 15:48:21 | <maerwald> | why write it in haskell? |
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| 15:49:49 | <kuribas> | maerwald: why not? |
| 15:50:36 | <maerwald> | a) access to software developers, b) access to cheap software developers, c) bus factor |
| 15:51:09 | <tdammers> | however d) access to non-shitty software developers |
| 15:51:23 | <tdammers> | and e) guaranteeing an absolute minimum baseline of "documentation" |
| 15:51:38 | <Taneb> | f) fun |
| 15:52:02 | <tdammers> | that's actually a valid business concern |
| 15:52:02 | <kuribas> | a) 1 we have good developers, b) we pay them a good salary c) I'll train them |
| 15:52:20 | <maerwald> | ok, so you're the only experienced haskell dev? |
| 15:52:46 | <kuribas> | maerwald: nah, there are many, the guys here, well-typed, etc... |
| 15:52:58 | <maerwald> | kuribas: I mean in your team |
| 15:53:16 | <kuribas> | currently, yes |
| 15:53:40 | <tdammers> | fwiw, if you screw up and hire well-typed to mop up the pieces, I won't object |
| 15:53:43 | <maerwald> | what happens if you get sick or leave the company, because well-typed made you an offer? ;) |
| 15:54:02 | <kuribas> | maerwald: depends how well the service does? |
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| 15:54:17 | <tomsmeding> | given "data Dir = Fwd | Rev ; type family Flip (a :: Dir) = r | r -> a where Flip 'Fwd = 'Rev ; Flip 'Rev = 'Fwd", is there a nice way to prove to ghc that "a ~ Flip (Flip a)" ? |
| 15:54:31 | <kuribas> | maerwald: if it happens in the next month (unlikely) it'll get rewritten in clojure. |
| 15:54:32 | <tomsmeding> | for a :: Dir |
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| 15:55:12 | <maerwald> | so in 3 years, you are gone, the service uses an ancient stackage LTS that you can't build with current stack anymore and the CTO orders to rewrite it in Go, because they can't compete with blockchain companies for haskell dev salaries :p |
| 15:55:12 | <kuribas> | maerwald: if it happens next year, I suppose the other guys should know enough to get shit done. |
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| 15:56:14 | <kuribas> | I doubt it. Not go for sure, maybe clojure. |
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| 15:56:22 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | write everything in pseudo-code and transpile to actual code |
| 15:56:51 | <kuribas> | maerwald: or more likely, when I leave they hire another guy who knows haskell well. |
| 15:57:14 | <maerwald> | tbh, I've always said "no" if someone asked me if haskell is a good idea for some commercial project |
| 15:57:31 | <maerwald> | Either CTO and CEO know the deal and are all-in on it, or don't do it |
| 15:57:31 | <kuribas> | maerwald: I guess you are in the wrong channel then? |
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| 15:57:38 | <maerwald> | why is that? |
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| 15:58:06 | <maerwald> | I'm not talking about open source or ppl who know what they are doing. I'm talking about someone asking what they should do |
| 15:58:09 | <kuribas> | maerwald: if you don't like haskell, this isn't the place? |
| 15:58:18 | <maerwald> | kuribas: sorry what? |
| 15:58:26 | <tomsmeding> | liking haskell is something else than thinking it's good for task X |
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| 15:58:42 | <tomsmeding> | where here, task X is quite broad: using it as a company |
| 15:58:47 | <kuribas> | tomsmeding: eh, "haskell is wrong for commercial use" is very generic. |
| 15:58:53 | <maerwald> | that's not what I said either |
| 15:59:10 | <kuribas> | tomsmeding: that's very different from saying, haskell isn't suited for this particular task. |
| 15:59:18 | <tomsmeding> | true |
| 15:59:48 | <maerwald> | If someone asks me "We will use haskell in our commercial project, will you help us?" I will likely say yes ;) |
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| 15:59:58 | <maerwald> | but if they ask me if they should use haskell, I say "no" |
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| 16:00:17 | <kuribas> | maerwald: it depends. |
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| 16:00:32 | <kuribas> | maerwald: "yes" isn't a good generic answer, neither is "no". |
| 16:01:33 | <kuribas> | maerwald: it depends on company culture, existing practices, expectations, scope of project, etc... |
| 16:01:47 | <maerwald> | it depends on them asking me the question :p |
| 16:03:47 | <maerwald> | if you ask a Buddhist, if you should become a Buddhist, they'll either say "no" or say nothing |
| 16:03:59 | <maerwald> | saying nothing is kinda rude, so... |
| 16:04:27 | <kuribas> | maerwald: it's biased against haskell, so I wonder why you are here. |
| 16:04:28 | <tdammers> | a Zen Buddhist might answer "mu." |
| 16:04:33 | <maerwald> | hehe |
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| 16:04:45 | <maerwald> | kuribas: no |
| 16:04:55 | <kuribas> | maerwald: I don't find you are either enlightend, nor objective. |
| 16:05:02 | <kuribas> | not that I am... |
| 16:05:12 | <tdammers> | alternatively: "There is no 'Buddhism'. There is no 'should'. There is no 'I'." |
| 16:05:24 | <maerwald> | kuribas: I don't engage in ad-hominemisms :p |
| 16:05:39 | <maerwald> | tdammers: that's too abstract for me :> |
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| 16:06:04 | <maerwald> | but in general, I despise envangelism in tech |
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| 16:06:17 | <kuribas> | maerwald: I am not saying you should be biased for haskell, it's just strange that you are here... |
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| 16:06:36 | <maerwald> | kuribas: I find it strange too... world is full of miracles :> |
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| 16:07:06 | <tdammers> | kuribas: he's kind of right though. as fantastic Haskell is as a language, from a business perspective it has downsides that can prove crucial |
| 16:07:28 | <maerwald> | once I recommended rust to a startup company... sometimes I have nightmares about how they're doing |
| 16:08:05 | <maerwald> | but my data point was: Microsoft rewrote some of their stuff in rust and achieved the same velocity after a couple of weeks |
| 16:08:08 | <kuribas> | tdammers: what about clojure then? |
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| 16:08:19 | <kuribas> | tdammers: is clojure "better" from a business perspective? |
| 16:08:43 | <maerwald> | with haskell, your velocity is harder to predict as well |
| 16:08:45 | geekosaur | would like to point out that clojure is a possibility because of evangelism, which maerwald has rejected |
| 16:08:49 | <maerwald> | sometime way faster, sometimes not |
| 16:08:50 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | otoh graham hutton, iirc, described lisp as one of his advantages over competition |
| 16:08:52 | <tdammers> | kuribas: clojure has some advantages that Haskell lacks, most notably running on JVM and having relatively painless Java interop |
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| 16:09:22 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | so, it's not always a matter of using a language with cheapest coders |
| 16:09:23 | <maerwald> | tdammers: and not crashing, although your code is completely wrong |
| 16:09:27 | <joncol> | I see the words Clojure and Haskell mentioned here. Anyone that did the switch from a Clojure job to a Haskell dito around here? Would be fun to hear something about the change in experience. |
| 16:09:57 | <tdammers> | minoru_shiraeesh: I'm not saying the downsides are *always* show stoppers. Something like Lisp or Haskell can be your productivity superweapon that gives you an edge over the competition. But that only works if you know how to play its strength, and have a plan to deal with the downsides. |
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| 16:11:03 | <kuribas> | tdammers: I find the quality of some clojure libraries quite bad actually. |
| 16:11:08 | <tdammers> | joncol: technically, yes - one of the jobs I had before making the jump to "professional Haskeller" used clojure almost exclusively. in reality, however, I had been using Haskell for personal stuff long before that, so I really came to clojure from Haskell, and found the experience thoroughly underwhelming |
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| 16:11:26 | <kuribas> | tdammers: and the documentation is abysmal |
| 16:12:01 | <maerwald> | tdammers: I worked on a pretty large clojurescript codebase and one day I deleted on bracket too many, the compiler didn't complain and the customer page would go blank |
| 16:12:12 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | "otoh graham hutton, iirc, described lisp as one of his advantages over competition" or paul graham? not sure |
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| 16:12:18 | <maerwald> | I'm not sure how that passed the compiler, but it did |
| 16:12:25 | <joncol> | tdammers: What I find most difficult with Clojure is the maintenance/refactoring. Also adding features etc. So easy to make stupid mistakes that take too long to track down. |
| 16:12:25 | <tdammers> | minoru_shiraeesh: the latter |
| 16:13:04 | <kuribas> | joncol: maintanance is aweful in clojure. I find even now that we have a comprehensive test suite, pipelines, stuff still breaks often. |
| 16:13:08 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | yeah, it was paul graham |
| 16:13:12 | <joncol> | Especially when in a team of multiple programmers, each having their own preferences when it comes to what libraries to use etc. |
| 16:14:00 | <kuribas> | joncol: haskell is more robust with a tiny test suite, than clojure with a comprehensive one. |
| 16:14:08 | <tdammers> | clojure shares all the downsides of the rest of the "dynamic" bunch, but it cranks that up to 11 |
| 16:14:46 | <tdammers> | you think monkey-patching is bad? here, have some macros. |
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| 16:15:10 | <kuribas> | tdammers: I happily don't see that many macros in our clojure base |
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| 16:15:27 | <tdammers> | kuribas: maybe you don't even notice them |
| 16:15:29 | <kuribas> | tdammers: but the leniency is really annoying |
| 16:16:19 | <joncol> | kuribas: What leniency you mean specifically? |
| 16:16:55 | <kuribas> | joncol: nil punning, everything is a hashmap, ... |
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| 16:17:13 | <kuribas> | in scheme, there is no nil punning, structures are quite strict, etc... |
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| 16:25:33 | <maerwald> | kuribas: so, is it a servant based HTTP microsoverice? |
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| 16:40:41 | <carbolymer> | I'm running ekg, and I have 16.5GB current memory residency and 12GB max residency - it does not make sense, doesn't it? |
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| 16:41:08 | <carbolymer> | also top shows 9.1G usage, so how 16.5GB current residency is possible? |
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| 16:57:06 | <Lycurgus> | looks like it's reporting something from the ghc rts which needn't map directly to OS resource reported in top |
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| 17:01:12 | <Lycurgus> | hs peoples like the super static |
| 17:01:27 | <Lycurgus> | memory comes in 16GB chunks igess |
| 17:01:38 | <DigitalKiwi> | it is well known that maerwald hates haskell but not why they're still here ;( |
| 17:02:31 | <monochrom> | I used to think that maerwald hated haskell. Then I learned that he made ghcup. |
| 17:02:43 | <monochrom> | Also ghcup used to be a shell script but is now in Haskell. |
| 17:03:09 | <monochrom> | In the end I concluded: maerwald : haskell :: me : humanity |
| 17:03:23 | <DigitalKiwi> | i say write everything in haskell with the assumption that new people will have to maintain it and you'll end up better off; amataur haskell is still better than professional php lol |
| 17:03:42 | <monochrom> | just a healthy dose of cynicism against certain ideals. |
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| 17:04:33 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://twitter.com/ProgrammerDude/status/1081145066369044480 |
| 17:04:44 | <DigitalKiwi> | "healthy" |
| 17:04:45 | <monochrom> | "haskell is very statically safe, right? RIGHT?" is very much like "humans are very good-willed, right? RIGHT?" |
| 17:05:07 | <monochrom> | even "humans are very intelligent" |
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| 17:06:16 | <Lycurgus> | humongs are like babies at the wheel of a ferrari |
| 17:06:31 | <catern> | does anyone have a good example of really old documents of people saying "functional programming is the future"? I want to replace the current citation I have in the third bullet in http://catern.com/iceberg.html which is mostly not about that |
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| 17:08:55 | <monochrom> | I don't know whether Landin's paper "the next 700 programming languages" counts, but it comes close. |
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| 17:09:19 | <monochrom> | Otherwise, it's only Internet fanatics who say that. |
| 17:09:45 | <monochrom> | (So, IRC logs, blog posts, mailing lists, newsgroups.) |
| 17:09:49 | <DigitalKiwi> | monochrom: that fact that humans are not intelligent as they think they are is why i am repulsed by the idea of writing, say, python |
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| 17:10:18 | <liyang> | catern: “Why Functional Programming Matters” Hughes 1990? |
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| 17:10:37 | <DigitalKiwi> | why your https bad :9 |
| 17:11:03 | <catern> | liyang: hm, not old enough |
| 17:11:23 | <maerwald> | DigitalKiwi: you should hear me talk about languages I actually hate :) |
| 17:11:41 | <Lycurgus> | look for industry reviews of ML |
| 17:11:42 | <DigitalKiwi> | maerwald: that i might enjoy more lol |
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| 17:13:07 | <maerwald> | but the languages I really hate, I'm not proficient enough with to provide a proper rant |
| 17:13:11 | <maerwald> | (e.g. C++) |
| 17:13:24 | <catern> | ah I think https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/359576.359579 is perfect |
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| 17:14:28 | <catern> | (and obviously, classic and important) |
| 17:14:50 | <DigitalKiwi> | python a week ago is harder to fix than adding features to haskell i wrote years ago ;( |
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| 17:16:19 | <maerwald> | if you write a small django app, then it should be fine |
| 17:16:22 | <liyang> | catern: I 'member. Good choice. (I should read it again.) |
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| 17:16:46 | <maerwald> | python is my go-to prototyping language |
| 17:17:00 | <maerwald> | because once you're done, you *really* want to throw away the result |
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| 17:17:11 | <monochrom> | :) |
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| 17:18:23 | <DigitalKiwi> | maerwald: lol that python that's supposed to get thrown away ends up being in prod for 30 years |
| 17:18:49 | <Rembane> | That's true for all prototype code regardless of language :/ |
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| 17:19:07 | <monochrom> | People fall in love with their own creations. |
| 17:19:21 | <monochrom> | blindly fall in love |
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| 17:20:16 | <maerwald> | DigitalKiwi: in haskell, whatever you prototyped usually ends up uploaded on hackage and used by companies you don't know... |
| 17:20:32 | <DigitalKiwi> | ...and not in the good way. like in the perpetually broken and maintenance burden and always "we really need to rewrite this" |
| 17:20:38 | <maerwald> | I've never uploaded a python lib, ever |
| 17:20:51 | <geekosaur> | DigitalKiwi, thta again happens in any language |
| 17:20:58 | <DigitalKiwi> | yes |
| 17:21:18 | <DigitalKiwi> | so start with something better ;) |
| 17:21:51 | <maerwald> | I actually believe in prototyping |
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| 17:22:51 | <maerwald> | and same-language rewrites |
| 17:23:06 | <DigitalKiwi> | so prototype in haskell |
| 17:23:32 | <maerwald> | if the requiremens changes go beyond a certain point, your architecture will inevitably fail |
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| 17:23:36 | <maerwald> | DigitalKiwi: too slow |
| 17:24:00 | <maerwald> | because too many toys |
| 17:24:14 | <DigitalKiwi> | lol oh i know lol |
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| 17:24:59 | <DigitalKiwi> | but that's a problem of self control not of haskell ;p |
| 17:25:09 | <maerwald> | python is so boring that you just focus on the task |
| 17:25:17 | <maerwald> | no FRP, no effects systems, no nothing |
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| 17:26:00 | <maerwald> | so haskell prototypes turn out to be library experiments, rather than prototypes |
| 17:26:26 | <maerwald> | and then you like the result a little too much |
| 17:26:27 | <monochrom> | I am unfamiliar with python libraries, so it is the opposite for me. When in Python, too many toys. |
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| 17:26:58 | <monochrom> | When in Haskell I write boring code. |
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| 17:28:24 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://github.com/nix-community/nixops-digitalocean/actions |
| 17:29:10 | <maerwald> | what's that |
| 17:30:48 | <DigitalKiwi> | python being a pita |
| 17:31:07 | <maerwald> | or is it nix :p |
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| 17:31:40 | <DigitalKiwi> | fair question but in this case it is python |
| 17:32:03 | <maerwald> | I believe nix is like perl... it'll have a steady decline over the next couple of years, but you'll never get rid of it completely |
| 17:33:37 | <catern> | not sure why you'd expect a decline, it's growing rapidly the last couple years |
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| 17:33:49 | <maerwald> | catern: perl also had a peak |
| 17:33:57 | <monochrom> | oooohhhhhh |
| 17:33:58 | <catern> | yes, not sure why you expect that peak is right now |
| 17:34:16 | <DigitalKiwi> | i've written a lot more python than haskell in my life and it's horrible ;( |
| 17:34:19 | <monochrom> | The O'Reily Perl book has a camel. Perhaps we should expect two peaks. |
| 17:34:32 | <maerwald> | I hope not |
| 17:35:28 | <maerwald> | catern: because it's well established now, there's not much more growth potential in terms of tech and the quality standards (or the lack thereof) have been established |
| 17:36:13 | <maerwald> | I don't expect much change in the ecosystem |
| 17:36:39 | <maerwald> | And I believe the disadvantages outweigh, so that people will slowly migrate away |
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| 17:36:56 | <catern> | sure, that was all true two years ago too, nevertheless usage has grown a lot in the past two years; why do you expect it's going to stop sometime in the next year and turn into a decline? |
| 17:37:40 | <catern> | "the inherent badness" isn't a sufficient reason for software projects to decline in usage, unfortunately :) |
| 17:38:33 | <maerwald> | catern: yes, because it has been 2+ years now that users can observe that there won't be any more change |
| 17:39:40 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat/2021-03-14#1615715873-1615710746 |
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| 17:40:07 | <monochrom> | I expected that perl declined when php and python rose. Indeed my sysadmin, being the sysadmin type, sworn by perl back then but now swears by python. |
| 17:40:40 | <monochrom> | But also indeed I have no data other than that one and that my university used to teach perl but not any more. |
| 17:41:04 | <maerwald> | There I wonder: how would you teach nix? |
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| 18:03:44 | <DigitalKiwi> | maerwald: nix shell nixpkgs#dateutils nixpkgs#jq -c bash -c 'ddiff "$(curl -s https://api.github.com/repos/input-output-hk/haskell.nix |jq -r '.created_at' )" "now" -f "%y"' |
| 18:03:46 | <DigitalKiwi> | 3 |
| 18:04:24 | <DigitalKiwi> | a lot's happened with just that project in the last year |
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| 18:06:42 | <maerwald> | yep, 3 years sounds like the amount of time you need to invest to do anything non-trivial with it :p |
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| 18:08:00 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://input-output-hk.github.io/haskell.nix/tutorials/getting-started/ |
| 18:08:33 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://haskell4nix.readthedocs.io/ |
| 18:08:46 | <maerwald> | ? |
| 18:09:19 | <maerwald> | You're suggesting one can make anything work with *just* reading the docs? |
| 18:09:48 | <maerwald> | Usually you end up going on an issue-hunt through IRC, reddit, blog posts and obscure github gists |
| 18:10:33 | <DigitalKiwi> | yeah that's just tech lol |
| 18:10:37 | <maerwald> | no |
| 18:10:54 | <maerwald> | that's poor ergonomics |
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| 18:11:06 | <DigitalKiwi> | that so much has happened in the last few years is actually one of the problems, finding old stack overflows ;p |
| 18:11:59 | <maerwald> | I've used ansible mostly by just reading the docs. It's not a great piece of tech, but it has better ergonomics. |
| 18:12:26 | <DigitalKiwi> | and what i was suggesting was that at some point it was 'project nobody else could use' and 'project that is increasingly easy for a wide variety of other people to use' |
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| 18:12:52 | <DigitalKiwi> | how much nix docs have you read and related to what? |
| 18:13:01 | <maerwald> | I think by now the only interesting use case that remains of nix is cross-compiling static binaries. |
| 18:13:24 | <maerwald> | That can get a little hairy even with containerized alpine |
| 18:13:29 | <DigitalKiwi> | there's actually quite a bit of nix docs, but sometimes it's hard to know which of the several manuals to look in |
| 18:13:52 | <maerwald> | yes, poorly structured docs aren't very useful... hence why I asked: how would one teach nix? |
| 18:14:11 | <maerwald> | I think packaging systems are too messy in general, some more than others |
| 18:14:49 | <DigitalKiwi> | because nix the language, nix the program, nixos the distro, nixpkgs the expression set, are different things... |
| 18:15:37 | <DigitalKiwi> | and then there's all of the things that have been built with it |
| 18:16:42 | <maerwald> | yeah, too much complexity for the gains |
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| 18:17:37 | <DigitalKiwi> | like nixops, hydra, node2nix, home-manager, ... https://github.com/nix-community |
| 18:17:49 | <monochrom> | I imagine that "ActiveX" would suffer the same problem. It really is a consortium of several not really related things that are grouped together only because some marketting people said to. |
| 18:18:12 | <DigitalKiwi> | that's like saying you don't want to use haskell because edwardk already wrote a library you need |
| 18:18:16 | <monochrom> | But this is where human nature is utterly broken. |
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| 18:18:40 | <maerwald> | DigitalKiwi: abstractions in haskell are usually no that brittle |
| 18:18:44 | <monochrom> | Human nature is such that they learn a mess and then they think it's a bragging right. |
| 18:19:33 | <Clint> | that explains corporate culture |
| 18:19:42 | <maerwald> | DigitalKiwi: it starts with nix the language being poor (module system anyone?) |
| 18:20:03 | <monochrom> | People fall in love with both what they create and what they learn. These are specially cases of the sunk cost policy. |
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| 18:20:13 | <maerwald> | reasoning about 2 lines of nix code is already a challenge |
| 18:20:18 | <DigitalKiwi> | i'm not even good at nix lol i just hit shit with hammers until it works |
| 18:20:39 | <maerwald> | exactly, you don't reason about nix code, you just play with it until it does what you want |
| 18:20:40 | <monochrom> | If you have wasted time, you can either admit it's a waste or rebrand it as an investment. Which one feels better? |
| 18:20:46 | <Cale> | Yeah, nix-the-language not having a module system goes a fair way to explaining all of my own frustrations with it. Of course, I wouldn't be frustrated if nix wasn't actually irreplaceable in many other ways. |
| 18:20:58 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://github.com/tazjin/nix-1p |
| 18:21:00 | <monochrom> | And yes people have made this a policy, I didn't have a typo. |
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| 18:21:58 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://nixos.org/guides/nix-pills/index.html |
| 18:22:06 | <maerwald> | but I don't see an alternative that will target the same audience |
| 18:22:10 | <Cale> | It's really a style thing that is influenced by that lack of module system though: people make gigantic attrsets of things that behave a bit like modules, then they tweak those collections of definitions recursively, repeatedly, in ways that affect how things inside them behave deeply. |
| 18:22:48 | <maerwald> | That's basically how OOP works |
| 18:22:50 | <maerwald> | :) |
| 18:23:11 | <Cale> | The end result is that even though the nix language is basically a pure functional programming language, you struggle to extract the benefit of that, because equational reasoning is only helpful if you can actually find the equations that define the things you're working with. |
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| 18:23:56 | <maerwald> | right, so what remains useful is nix the package manager istelf (the approach, that was used by stack, cabal, ...) |
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| 18:24:23 | <maerwald> | you could just reboot it with a better language, but probably not gonna happen soon |
| 18:24:49 | <Cale> | and all the descriptions of how to build every package, and the fact that you can set up reasonably consistent environments between developer machines and deployed machines |
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| 18:25:00 | <Cale> | all that stuff is great |
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| 18:25:53 | <Cale> | Nix the desktop OS, not as great imo -- it takes a lot of fiddling to get things into a usable configuration, so I don't even bother with it. Once you have a configuration you like, deploying it to more machines is easy though, which I have to admit is cool. |
| 18:26:23 | <Cale> | But it feels a lot like fucking around trying to get Slackware to work in 1999. |
| 18:26:27 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos/2021-04-28#1619579644-1619575351; |
| 18:26:58 | <monochrom> | slackware :) |
| 18:27:06 | <maerwald> | Yep, nixOS feels like gentoo, except with less QA |
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| 18:28:09 | <maerwald> | I think in the beginning, because there was too much community contribution to establish strict QA policies |
| 18:28:11 | <Cale> | But yeah, I love the ability to quickly set up a default.nix for my projects such that I can nix-shell and be in an environment with whatever dependencies (both Haskell and system) that I'd need to work on or build the project. |
| 18:28:25 | <maerwald> | And later, because ppl stopped using it as a desktop OS |
| 18:28:30 | <Cale> | That's cool, and worth learning nix for. |
| 18:28:38 | <DigitalKiwi> | well i am https://twitter.com/ArchKiwi |
| 18:31:31 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat/2021-03-14#1615715873-1615710746 |
| 18:32:09 | <carbolymer> | >using twatter |
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| 18:34:27 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos/2021-04-25#1619383503-1619376013; maerwald i complain a lot too ;) |
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| 18:45:26 | <DigitalKiwi> | monochrom: well the thing is that in spite of all of the sunk cost (and there is lots) there're still too many benefits that it does bring that nothing else solves as easily/at all (yet, if something better does come along, which i hope it does, because it does have problems, someday) |
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| 18:47:07 | <DigitalKiwi> | i'm not married to nix..not even that good at it as in i haven't really tried to learn it that much... probably part of my prolem ;p |
| 18:47:38 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://patrickmn.com/software/the-haskell-pyramid/ |
| 18:48:21 | <monochrom> | Is it possible to invent a new language, let's call it "mix", which improves upon the nix language by adding a proper module system, and you can still use the rest of the nix infrastructure? |
| 18:49:05 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://www.thejach.com/imgs/vim_learning.jpg |
| 18:49:06 | <monochrom> | Or generally it is only the nix language that needs fixing so let's replace just that. |
| 18:49:06 | <maerwald> | Hmm, lets see: a) reproducable builds? Never needed it (except for an embedded project, but there we used a proprietary alternative), b) reproducible environment? Cool, but don't remember when I actually needed that and couldn't do without, c) nixops? More trouble than all the alternatives |
| 18:49:36 | <DigitalKiwi> | monochrom: well there is guix |
| 18:50:44 | <DigitalKiwi> | maerwald: do you find ghcup useful? |
| 18:50:45 | <maerwald> | in the end, static binaries are better for user-facing things and when you're deploying... why would you need reproducible config? Do you not have full control over the environment anyway? |
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| 18:51:49 | <maerwald> | DigitalKiwi: ghcup is a low-effort tool, but has high ergonomics... so basically the opposite of nix |
| 18:52:14 | <maerwald> | so it's useful when your distro GHC is broken/lagging |
| 18:52:23 | <maerwald> | which happens to be the case for many distros |
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| 18:55:20 | <slack1256> | Is there a testing flag in cabal so I can test non exported functions from a module? |
| 18:55:44 | <slack1256> | ghci does have that via `:m *MyModule` |
| 18:55:55 | <maerwald> | slack1256: you can do cpp and write the test within the module and export the test |
| 18:56:02 | <maerwald> | `tar` did that previously |
| 18:56:20 | <geekosaur> | non exported functions requires interpretation, which ghci can do but cabal can't (nor ghc in general) |
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| 18:56:47 | <slack1256> | maerwald: That actually sounds great. |
| 18:57:28 | <DigitalKiwi> | nix-shell -I nixpkgs=channel:nixos-unstable -p cabal-install zlib git -p "haskell.packages.ghc8104.ghcWithPackages(pkgs: with pkgs; [ monad-loops xlsx shh shh-extras HSH simple-cmd shelly megaparsec aeson titlecase ])" |
| 18:57:32 | <geekosaur> | the other way to do it is an Internals module which is exported |
| 18:57:36 | <maerwald> | slack1256: https://github.com/haskell/tar/blob/557014f2a441e3b9372e5d30b437fe50cdf190bc/Codec/Archive/Tar/Index/IntTrie.hs#L507 |
| 18:58:03 | <maerwald> | not sure if that's great... I'd personally just export everything and use the `Foo.Internal.Bar` notation for the module |
| 18:58:19 | <maerwald> | (and then exclude changes to those modules from your PVP process) |
| 18:58:34 | <maerwald> | like geekosaur said |
| 18:58:46 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://mostlyabsurd.com/files/2021-04-25-174331_2879x1694_scrot.png |
| 18:59:38 | <maerwald> | maybe you can do without the CPP, but then you always build the tests, which is a little odd maybe |
| 18:59:48 | <maerwald> | or not, sounds radical |
| 19:00:38 | <maerwald> | (you lose caching with the CPP when you switch to building the tests) |
| 19:00:56 | <slack1256> | Exactly. |
| 19:01:18 | <monochrom> | On the bright side, at equilibrium both are cached. >:) |
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| 19:01:57 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://mostlyabsurd.com/files/binance |
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| 19:02:26 | × | whatisRT quits (~whatisRT@ip5b416a33.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 19:02:43 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://mostlyabsurd.com/files/clone-edward |
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| 19:03:43 | <maerwald> | hmm, PVP could have included a rule for modules that contain `Internal` in their name to be excluded from the API check |
| 19:03:45 | <monochrom> | great name "clone-edward". |
| 19:04:03 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://gist.github.com/Kiwi/ffc08bffb15798dc4b1ec2a1c47c6191#file-program-cabal-hs |
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| 19:05:04 | <maerwald> | but the PVP author is awol |
| 19:05:43 | <monochrom> | I think people already interpret PVP with that in mind. |
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| 19:06:57 | <maerwald> | I guess we can pester haskell foundation about PVP updates |
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| 19:07:31 | <monochrom> | I am actually doubtful about the value of making it an explicit statement. |
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| 19:07:43 | <maerwald> | well, tools can use that information then |
| 19:07:48 | <maerwald> | otherwise it's kinda illegal! |
| 19:08:15 | <maerwald> | but not sure we even have a mature PVP checker? I remeber some |
| 19:08:32 | <maerwald> | @hackage policeman |
| 19:08:32 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/policeman |
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| 19:30:54 | <juri_> | ok, dumb question. if i'm writing a function definition and using typeclasses to restrict the type of two items, how do i specify that two of the items have the same restrictions, even though they are not the same type? |
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| 19:31:30 | <Rembane> | juri_: Give them two different type variables. |
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| 19:31:47 | <juri_> | right now i have averageNodes :: (Arcable a, Pointable a, Show a, Arcable b, Pointable b, Show b) => a -> b -> INode |
| 19:32:04 | <juri_> | how would i re-write that shorter? |
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| 19:38:56 | <davean> | juri_: if its a thing you do often, you'd create an alias that covered the 3 pieces |
| 19:38:57 | <monochrom> | Define your own "class (Arcable a, Pointable a, Show a) => ProblemSpecific a". It needs no methods. |
| 19:39:03 | <davean> | Doesn't need to be a class |
| 19:39:48 | <monochrom> | The non-class solution breaks a lot of people's minds, so I won't tell it unless you really want to see it. |
| 19:40:27 | <davean> | really? How does it break people's minds? |
| 19:40:27 | <DigitalKiwi> | ...me would like to see it |
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| 19:40:37 | <Rembane> | monochrom, davean: I want to see it! :) |
| 19:40:54 | <monochrom> | Turn on ContraintKinds. Then "type ProblemSpecific a = (Arcable a, Pointable a, Show a)". |
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| 19:41:36 | <monochrom> | Major motivating example in the GHC user's guide in the ConstraintKinds section. |
| 19:41:42 | <davean> | it seems the much more simple and straight forward approach to me, its what I sue when I've got a meta set of constraints I use a lot |
| 19:42:03 | <Rembane> | Is ConstraintKinds one of the nice extensions? |
| 19:42:17 | <monochrom> | I think it's harmless. |
| 19:42:54 | <monochrom> | There are a lot of simple one-liners that break a lot of people's minds. |
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| 19:43:18 | <Rembane> | That's good stuff |
| 19:43:25 | <monochrom> | I optimize for "I understand the solution" not "the solution is slick". |
| 19:43:26 | <davean> | I'm really not sure how this could break anyone's mind |
| 19:43:41 | <monochrom> | "Arcable a" is not a type? |
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| 19:44:06 | <monochrom> | And in Haskell2010, not even a kind? |
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| 19:45:16 | <monochrom> | And the line {-# language ConstraintKinds #-} begets a lot of questions and digressions on what it means? |
| 19:45:32 | <monochrom> | And I even forgot whether TypeInType is also required. |
| 19:46:14 | <davean> | I mean if we're up to type classes we've convered constraints |
| 19:46:30 | <monochrom> | I can understand that if the optimizing goal is "just cargo-cult it, don't try to understand, don't even ask why it's legal in the first place?" then sure. |
| 19:46:57 | <davean> | Like the stuff for doing manipulations of constraints in the type system is a little byzantine |
| 19:47:10 | <davean> | but the concept is ... well, its just weird when it isn't allowed. |
| 19:47:39 | <davean> | Its already part of the type signature |
| 19:47:46 | <davean> | we're just removing selerations between the levels |
| 19:47:46 | geekosaur | admits he'dprobably try that first, get an error that ConstraintKinds is needed, then wonder if he's letting himself in for type voodoo |
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| 19:50:43 | Lycurgus | as a rational fundamentalist suspects higher order typed are bad juju period |
| 19:51:24 | Lycurgus | *types |
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| 19:56:32 | <juri_> | monochrom: no? |
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| 19:57:31 | <juri_> | this is my first forray into typeclasses, from necessity. handling types with Eithers in them leaves a lot of calls to error. |
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| 19:58:40 | <juri_> | I'm working with graphs in 2d space. Arcable means a node has the potential to have an output line, and Pointable means the node has enough lines of enough different angles to resolve the note to a position on the 2d plane. |
| 19:58:45 | <geekosaur> | these days you can't turn TypeInType off |
| 19:58:54 | <juri_> | Also, i'm a hit at parties. |
| 20:01:22 | <davean> | juri_: uh, I question if these should be type classes |
| 20:01:48 | <int-e> | geekosaur: what could go wrong? |
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| 20:02:56 | <juri_> | davean: i kindof do to, but they definately needed to stop being three types of node, hiding in one type, with lots of Either, and lots of function implementations that effectively 'type checked' with error during runtime. |
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| 20:03:36 | <geekosaur> | huh, guess it still works. thought they'd removed the old machinery one version after making TypeInType default |
| 20:03:55 | <DigitalKiwi> | maerwald: anyway, one of the easiest and most useful things is that nix can be used as a sort of ghcupp but for all of the things ;p |
| 20:03:56 | <monochrom> | Are you saying that if X is an Arcable instance then "Either E X" is also an Arcable instance? |
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| 20:04:11 | <juri_> | no? |
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| 20:04:50 | <monochrom> | What have I done. |
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| 20:05:00 | <juri_> | I'm saying that Node had all kinds of logic for Either (LineSeg, LineSeg) [PLine2] to be a member. |
| 20:05:02 | <monochrom> | I started the trend of answering questions with question marks? |
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| 20:05:39 | <juri_> | because by the rules of the system, a node either had two line segments, or N lines intersecting with it. |
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| 20:05:59 | <juri_> | now, i have two types for the two rules. everything is MUCH cleaner. |
| 20:06:05 | <DigitalKiwi> | in fact... https://gist.githubusercontent.com/Kiwi/df35e1fde120346d47138e13565794bb/raw/224ea9c7e79ef3414a77864ac058fa32005cbe2f/nixos-up |
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| 20:06:42 | <juri_> | nodes with (LineSeg, LineSeg) always have an output Arc, while the other nodes have a Maybe Arc... |
| 20:06:58 | <juri_> | they're similar, but very not, and it jammed up all of the things. |
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| 20:07:38 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://github.com/a-schaefers/themelios#tips--tricks |
| 20:07:41 | <juri_> | for instance, forcing the LineSeg carrying types to have Maybe arc, even though it was always Just. |
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| 20:08:23 | <DigitalKiwi> | nix-build '<nixpkgs/nixos>' -A config.system.build.isoImage -I nixos-config=iso.nix # builds a usb image |
| 20:09:25 | <DigitalKiwi> | [root@nixos:~] themelios ./hosts/vm-example/configuration.sh https://github.com/a-schaefers/themelios.git master # completely installs and configures |
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| 20:39:02 | <lordcirth_> | I'm using Brick, and trying to get widgets to be fixed-width: "B.padRight (B.Pad (10 - B.textWidth hpBar)) hpBar" but the types are wrong; "No instance for (B.TextWidth (B.Widget Name))". What's the correct way to do this? |
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| 20:41:30 | <sm[m]> | lordcirth_: if you don't already understand the types clearly, a useful technique is to add lots of type annotations - replace X with (X :: SomeType) |
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| 20:45:32 | <lordcirth_> | Yeah. So it seems that I need to get the width back where I construct the Widget. |
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| 21:01:27 | <int-e> | lordcirth_: Well the widgets don't have any static size (not even the fixed width/height ones); it's all determined during rendering. *Maybe* limiting the width using https://hackage.haskell.org/package/brick-0.62/docs/Brick-Widgets-Core.html#v:hLimit and then puting a maximal padding inside will do the trick. If not, this looks like really unpleasant twiddling with internals. |
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| 21:03:24 | <int-e> | (I found https://hackage.haskell.org/package/brick-0.62/docs/src/Brick.Widgets.Core.html#renderBox and decided to not try to understand things further) |
| 21:03:56 | <int-e> | (AIUI that function is responsible for vBox and hBox) |
| 21:04:05 | <lordcirth_> | Maybe I need to use a table, with each widget centered in a cell? |
| 21:04:41 | <int-e> | lordcirth_: Note that I've never used the library. Maybe somebody who has can help better. |
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| 21:11:13 | <sm[m]> | does brick support tables now ? |
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| 21:12:17 | <int-e> | sm[m]: I saw that there is a Brick.Widgets.Table |
| 21:12:33 | <sm[m]> | great! |
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| 21:13:42 | <Tracis> | First time here. Hi everyone |
| 21:13:58 | <argento> | Tracis: Hi, welcome |
| 21:16:20 | <sm[m]> | hi Tracis |
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| 21:20:51 | <Tracis> | maybe it would be rude to ask right after i enter the chat, but. Do you guys have any recommended tutorial to learn haskell? (sry if i say something wrong, i'm practicing) |
| 21:21:15 | <int-e> | sm[m]: The table rendering code contains `let paddedCells = ...`, maybe it's insane... |
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| 21:22:10 | <sm[m]> | Tracis: seems quite a reasonable, and frequent, question. Any particular style you like ? What's your background/experience level ? |
| 21:23:20 | <sm[m]> | I'm fond of |
| 21:23:21 | <sm[m]> | @where HTAC |
| 21:23:21 | <lambdabot> | "Haskell Tutorial and Cookbook" by Mark Watson in 2017-09-04 at <https://leanpub.com/haskell-cookbook> |
| 21:25:03 | <Tracis> | sm[m]: html, css, js, react/react native, nodejs, c, c++, python3. But all in beginner level. |
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| 21:26:27 | <argento> | http://learnyouahaskell.com/ <- Tracis |
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| 21:27:35 | <Tracis> | Ty, lambdabot and argento |
| 21:28:01 | <Tracis> | i'll take a look |
| 21:29:03 | <int-e> | @bot |
| 21:29:04 | <lambdabot> | :) |
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| 21:30:04 | <DigitalKiwi> | @where pih |
| 21:30:04 | <lambdabot> | "Programming in Haskell" by Graham Hutton in 2007-01-15,2016-09-01 at <http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~pszgmh/pih.html> |
| 21:30:49 | <sm[m]> | Tracis: also https://code.world and then https://code.world/haskell |
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| 21:31:31 | <argento> | @karma+ lambdabot |
| 21:31:32 | <lambdabot> | lambdabot's karma raised to 38. |
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| 21:31:39 | argento | it's only fair |
| 21:32:41 | <DigitalKiwi> | idk that we should be letting the bot give itself karma |
| 21:33:58 | <DigitalKiwi> | first you tell it to give itself karma and then the next thing you know it's doing it without being told! |
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| 21:52:22 | <sclv> | @botsnack |
| 21:52:23 | <lambdabot> | :) |
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| 22:00:29 | <int-e> | @botexercise |
| 22:00:30 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
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| 22:09:16 | <seven_three> | If I have a lens that takes an argument, say `myLens :: Int -> Lens' SomeData String`, is it likely that I could use a different technique other than lenses? |
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| 22:11:53 | <seven_three> | s/could/should |
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| 22:47:36 | <zzz> | DigitalKiwi: if we can have self-compiling languages why not self-karma giving bots? i one wrote a test library that tested itself |
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| 22:56:38 | ski | 'd personally prefer it with no karma system |
| 22:56:39 | <monochrom> | I wrote a test program that tests those who don't test themselves. |
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| 23:35:02 | <sm[m]> | bots with karma! next you'll be saying they have souls, feelings, rights |
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| 23:41:15 | <monochrom> | Bots don't want to be anthropomorphized. >:) |
| 23:42:34 | <monochrom> | Years ago I did that to information. There were liberal extremists who positted "information wants to be free". Well, I'm sure as hell information doesn't want to be anthropomorphized. |
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| 23:45:51 | <monochrom> | https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/agi |
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