Logs on 2021-05-04 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 01:05:41 | <dmj`> | the bytestring package itself has operations that work on a Handle |
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| 01:24:30 | <Tracis> | hi guys |
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| 01:30:35 | <Tracis> | does anyone know how to solve "could not find module 'prelude' " error? I tried the "cabal v2-build" command, and gave this error message |
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| 01:31:35 | <Tracis> | before that, I used the standard "cabal init" command |
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| 01:33:50 | <cdsmith> | Tracis: Check that base is listed under build-depends on the cabal file? |
| 01:35:58 | <Tracis> | in the project folder or that . file in the home directory? |
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| 01:36:29 | <cdsmith> | In the project folder. There should be a file, usually named after the directory with an extension of ".cabal" |
| 01:36:59 | <cdsmith> | You're looking for "build-depends:", and make sure that base is one of the listed packages there |
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| 01:37:47 | <Tracis> | yeah, all alright in there, cdsmith |
| 01:38:43 | <Tracis> | actually, idk. It is listed "base >=4.14 && <4.15" |
| 01:39:07 | <cdsmith> | Yeah, that looks fine. I'm not sure why you'd get that error, then. base definitely defines the Prelude module. |
| 01:39:21 | <Tracis> | i'll try again |
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| 01:39:40 | <cdsmith> | And you're running cabal build from inside that directory? |
| 01:40:19 | <Tracis> | yeah |
| 01:40:25 | <Tracis> | maybe i figured out |
| 01:40:58 | <Tracis> | "There are files missing in the 'base-4.14.1.0' package" |
| 01:41:45 | <cdsmith> | Oh, yeah. That's weird; not sure how it happened, but I'd try deleting ~/.ghc and then rerunning the build. |
| 01:41:56 | <yushyin> | Tracis: arch linux? |
| 01:42:28 | <Tracis> | yushyin yes. Manjaro, actually |
| 01:42:38 | <yushyin> | use ghcup |
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| 01:42:52 | <Tracis> | i'll try that cdsmith |
| 01:44:05 | <yushyin> | Tracis: do not try to use the ghc from your linux distribution, it is not suitable for development purposes |
| 01:44:26 | <yushyin> | Tracis: https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs/#installation |
| 01:44:53 | <Tracis> | yushyin ok |
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| 06:13:06 | <ADG1089> | meta-q for restarting xmonad isn't working for me, how can i debug that? it's working when i use `xmonad --restart &` |
| 06:14:04 | <ADG1089> | asking in xmonad |
| 06:14:34 | <ADG1089> | anyways, traditional debuggers don't work in haskell, what is an alternative? logging and printing is a tedious task |
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| 06:50:33 | <Axman6> | ADG1089: traditional debuggers can work wiht Haskell, GHC can even produce DWARF info. GHCi has a debugger built in too. As for your quesrion, have toy tried #xmonad? |
| 06:50:39 | <Axman6> | you* |
| 06:51:13 | <ADG1089> | seems like no one replied but it's more about xmonad related question |
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| 06:51:44 | <ADG1089> | Axman6: I've use Debug.Tracing till now, is there a tutorial on debugging the way you suggest? |
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| 06:53:30 | <Axman6> | I've never done it, so I'm afraid I can't really help there. the GHC manual should have info on how to do it though |
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| 07:05:37 | <olligobber> | I have a very complicated error to figure out |
| 07:06:05 | <olligobber> | oh I just figured it out |
| 07:06:06 | <Axman6> | this is how you know you're writing proper haskell |
| 07:06:53 | <olligobber> | the typing information is getting dropped after the template haskell is generated |
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| 07:10:59 | <olligobber> | yay it works |
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| 07:53:31 | <fuzzypixelz> | I made another monad tutorial: https://www.fuzzypixelz.com/2021/05/01/The-M-Word/ |
| 07:53:54 | <fuzzypixelz> | (just what you needed) |
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| 07:54:26 | <Rembane> | fuzzypixelz: It doesn't contain any burritos. :O |
| 07:54:29 | Rembane | reads the tutorial |
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| 08:02:47 | <maerwald> | fuzzypixelz: some critique: I find it a bit questionable to start with the laws (I prefer the parser approach). The second paragraph about the Why is kind of a misrepresentation: Monads have nothing to do with purity. And IO works without Monads too. |
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| 08:11:44 | <maerwald> | the limitations of an applicative parser is a great introduction into monads, but then you have to explain applicative first |
| 08:12:28 | <maerwald> | And it's also something you can code up yourself in a reasonable amount of time |
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| 08:13:51 | <merijn> | maerwald: You're not alone who thinks starting with laws is questionable :p |
| 08:14:07 | <merijn> | maerwald: See one of my favourite quotes on math education :p |
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| 08:14:56 | <merijn> | Suppose that you want to teach the 'cat' concept to a very young child. Do you explain that a cat is a relatively small, primarily carnivorous mammal with retractible claws, a distinctive sonic output, etc.? I'll bet not. You probably show the kid a lot of different cats, saying 'kitty' each time, until it gets the idea. To put it more generally, generalizations are best made by abstraction from |
| 08:15:02 | <merijn> | experience. |
| 08:15:04 | <merijn> | - R. P. Boas (Can we make mathematics intelligible?, American Mathematical Monthly 88 (1981), pp. 727-731) |
| 08:15:52 | <maerwald> | Yeah, the other approach is showing recurring patterns that can be abstracted out with the Monad class |
| 08:16:07 | <maerwald> | It's not like we didn't use Monads before the Monad class |
| 08:16:20 | <merijn> | maerwald: Well, that's Boas' exact point, no? :p |
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| 08:16:28 | <merijn> | Also, the original monad paper follows that method too |
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| 08:19:08 | <maerwald> | I learn better by contrast... so in order to know what a cat is, show me a dog first :p |
| 08:19:24 | <olligobber> | hmm, so adding `AsSet' to a type declaration is causing errors... |
| 08:20:07 | <olligobber> | in particular, this AsSet: https://github.com/olligobber/IotaBF/blob/main/lib/Functional/Iota/Free.hs#L29 |
| 08:20:32 | <olligobber> | which is weird, because the list I'm converting to a set has no repeats |
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| 08:37:42 | <olligobber> | huh, converting a list with more than 1 element to a set is breaking my instances |
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| 08:40:22 | <sshine> | olligobber, post example? |
| 08:40:25 | <olligobber> | wait, is there a difference between : and ': ? |
| 08:40:50 | <sshine> | ': looks like a type-level literal |
| 08:40:54 | <c_wraith> | sometimes the parser gets confused with promoted types |
| 08:40:57 | <__monty__> | ': sounds like the DataKinds promoted version. |
| 08:40:58 | <fuzzypixelz> | maerwald: thanks for your feedback. Could you please elaborate on `Monads have nothing to do with purity. And IO works without Monads too.`? |
| 08:41:33 | <olligobber> | nah, switching : to ': didn't fix it |
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| 08:41:50 | <olligobber> | I'll make a mwe |
| 08:43:38 | <sshine> | since fuzzypixelz is asking, I'll also ask: can you have first-class effects that are non-monadic? or would non-monadic IO be with side-effects? |
| 08:43:45 | <__monty__> | fuzzypixelz: This looks like a decent overview, https://stackoverflow.com/a/17004448 |
| 08:44:20 | <maerwald> | fuzzypixelz: Purity is the equivalency of call-by-value, call-by-name and call-by-need. I don't see what Monads have to do with that. People often usually refer to IO as "impure", but when you *evaulate* an IO action, nothing happens. For the second point, haskell had IO before Monads. |
| 08:46:09 | <maerwald> | % seq (putStrLn "blag") (pure ()) |
| 08:46:09 | <yahb> | maerwald: |
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| 08:46:19 | <sshine> | fuzzypixelz, https://stackoverflow.com/questions/17002119/haskell-pre-monadic-i-o |
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| 08:51:13 | <olligobber> | mwe: https://gist.github.com/olligobber/7acce0d7b8d02d587f609f7e4b0689a4 |
| 08:51:17 | <olligobber> | sshine, ^ |
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| 09:07:48 | <sshine> | olligobber, does Type1 and Type2 need the type-level equivalent of Ord? (It looks like it's called Cmp?) |
| 09:08:13 | <olligobber> | I don't know |
| 09:08:47 | <sshine> | olligobber, I never tried this, but I'm guessing that maybe '[Type1] does not invoke as many type-class constraints as '[Type1, Type2]. |
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| 09:10:12 | <olligobber> | how do I make an instance of Cmp? |
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| 09:13:09 | <olligobber> | ah, I see `type instance Cmp (Natural n) (Natural m) = CmpNat n m' in an example |
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| 09:15:28 | <olligobber> | just gotta figure out how to compare types then |
| 09:17:26 | <olligobber> | this should work? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cmptype-0.2.0.0/docs/Type-Compare-Plugin.html |
| 09:23:41 | sshine | doesn't know. I was thinking: type instance Cmp Type1 Type1 = EQ, etc. |
| 09:24:50 | <sshine> | here's a more elaborate example where the type family Cmp is defined in the same way as in Data.Type.Set: https://gist.github.com/hyone/3799190#file-gistfile1-hs-L29 |
| 09:25:11 | <sshine> | sorry, not exactly the same. |
| 09:25:14 | <sshine> | but pretty close. |
| 09:26:02 | <sshine> | and yeah, you'd probably want deriving if that exists. :-D |
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| 10:07:49 | <olligobber> | ah, cmptype requires ghc (>=8.6.3 && <8.8) |
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| 10:17:07 | <olligobber> | oh, is it easy to compare symbols? |
| 10:17:43 | <olligobber> | oooooooh |
| 10:18:58 | <tomsmeding> | olligobber: is happy |
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| 10:22:38 | <olligobber> | it works |
| 10:23:44 | <cub3s_> | Is Nixpkgs (non-broken packages) analogous to a Stack resolver? |
| 10:24:13 | <cub3s_> | maralorn, cc |
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| 11:03:45 | <tsteeples> | Hi all - recently started getting back into Haskell, and having trouble understanding what the best way to approach a certain problem is. I have an fixed sqlite database, from which I need to read only (no writing). Naturally, I'm trying to keep pure and IO functionality separate, but some of my "atomic" operations do require access to the database (I'm essentially using it as a lookup table). Thus it seems that all |
| 11:03:46 | <tsteeples> | my code will become fairly inextricably tied into the IO monad. Is there a better pattern for this, or just something I have to suck up? In the grand scheme of things, the database isn't large at all (2MB), so it is somewhat possible to just embed the data straight into code, but I can't imagine that's anything resembling best practice. Does anyone have any good suggestions/any patterns that I'm not aware of? Cheers |
| 11:03:46 | <tsteeples> | in advance. |
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| 11:05:18 | <cub3s_> | tsteeples, you could read that 2MB data into memory (as a neat data structure) and just use it purely from then on |
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| 11:06:29 | <chisui> | tsteeples you could create a class for your database actions and let `IO` implement that class. This makes it possible to also have a pure implementation for testing. |
| 11:07:03 | <chisui> | something like `class Db m where readValue :: String -> m String` |
| 11:07:39 | <tsteeples> | cub3s_... I'm an idiot. Yeah, that's perfect, I'll do that. |
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| 11:07:58 | <merijn> | I never understood the "pure implementation" for testing approach to DB interaction |
| 11:08:12 | <tsteeples> | chisui - ok, so what advantage would that offer over just doing everything through the IO monad? |
| 11:08:22 | <merijn> | Like, I need my code to work with an *actual* database, not a hypothetical one |
| 11:08:43 | <merijn> | tsteeples: Allows you to refactor DB logic independent from the rest of your code |
| 11:08:59 | <maerwald> | merijn: theoretically separating types of bugs... you would still run it against an actual DB as well |
| 11:09:12 | <maerwald> | it has its merits |
| 11:09:24 | <merijn> | maerwald: Right, so it just sounds like "more work" in the case of databases |
| 11:09:28 | <chisui> | tsteeples code that operates on the abstraction does not have the full power of `IO`. |
| 11:09:29 | <maerwald> | yes |
| 11:09:44 | <merijn> | tsteeples: I probably wouldn't go the "readValue" approach described earlie |
| 11:10:06 | <merijn> | tsteeples: What I'm using myself now (that I'm fairly happy with) is: https://github.com/merijn/Belewitte/blob/master/benchmark-analysis/src/Sql/Core.hs#L130-L133 |
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| 11:10:48 | <tsteeples> | merijn: Ah cool, ok, I'll take a look |
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| 11:11:19 | <tsteeples> | merijn: Looks neat, cheers all! |
| 11:11:28 | <merijn> | tsteeples: All my actual queries use that class to grab a connection, which means my database operations can only rely on "there is a connection we can do stuff on" and can't accidentally rely on the rest of my code |
| 11:11:36 | <chisui> | merijn in most cases I wouldn't abstract the DB access itself into a class but rather functions to access processed data. Kind of like an equivalent to the OOP DAO pattern. |
| 11:11:46 | <merijn> | tsteeples: Which in turn means it's easy to adapt/reuse my database code in different settings |
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| 11:13:13 | <cub3s_> | Is Nixpkgs (non-broken packages) analogous to a Stack resolver? |
| 11:13:45 | <merijn> | tsteeples: I'm growing quite fond of the "have a very tiny set of core primitives in a class, implement the full API on top of that" approach. It enforces decoupling which makes it easier to refactor things later |
| 11:13:50 | <chisui> | in tsteeples case I would also just read the db on startup |
| 11:14:16 | <merijn> | tsteeples: For example, since the db code only relies on those 3 primitives in the class, any refactor can never require more work than fixing those 3 things |
| 11:14:29 | <merijn> | Which is generally fairly trivial |
| 11:14:48 | <merijn> | I missed the initial question, so I dunno :p |
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| 11:15:14 | <Taneb> | cub3s_: I think it's currently based on a recent stackage nightly |
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| 11:17:40 | <cub3s_> | Taneb, yes but it does have all hackage packages that are not in stackage (although ones i've seen so far happen to be marked as broken) |
| 11:18:04 | <cub3s_> | has anyone written something about stack vs. nixpkgs that answers such questions? |
| 11:18:18 | <merijn> | Probably |
| 11:18:48 | <merijn> | There seems to be and endless supply of nixpkg propaganda on blogs >.> |
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| 11:19:14 | <cub3s_> | merijn, what do you mean propaganda |
| 11:19:45 | <maerwald> | sunk cost fallacy |
| 11:19:54 | <Arahael> | Learning nix is *hard*. |
| 11:20:03 | <Arahael> | I still haven't learnt it. |
| 11:20:03 | <maerwald> | you spent 3 years figuring out nix, now you gotta use it for everything and say it's great |
| 11:20:34 | <merijn> | cub3s_: "propaganda, noun, information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view." |
| 11:20:40 | <merijn> | cub3s_: Seems accurate enough :) |
| 11:20:45 | <Arahael> | I find the nix language weird, but it doesn't help that it's a bona-fide language, and the way you use it to configure larger projects seems... Random. |
| 11:20:49 | <merijn> | Don't get me wrong, I like nix *in theory* |
| 11:20:55 | <Arahael> | I love nix in theory. |
| 11:20:58 | <merijn> | I just hate nix *in practice* |
| 11:21:08 | <Arahael> | I regret running nix on my (personal) server. |
| 11:21:23 | <cub3s_> | what are the biggest issues with it? |
| 11:21:29 | <Arahael> | I think I'd have been far better off just installing debian, and maybe using nix for a couple of rnadom projects. |
| 11:21:35 | <merijn> | cub3s_: There's lots of blog posts espousing how Nix will solve all your problems, but I find it very painful to use |
| 11:21:36 | <maerwald> | cub3s_: figuring out how it works :D |
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| 11:21:57 | <Arahael> | cub3s_: Nix is, frankly, little more than a huge, huge program with a whole lot of code. |
| 11:21:57 | <merijn> | cub3s_: The language is entirely undocumented, errors opaque/impossible, getting it configured to work is a massive PITA |
| 11:22:07 | <Arahael> | Oh, the language is slightly documented. |
| 11:22:12 | <hc> | that sums up my (brief) experience with it :) |
| 11:22:18 | <merijn> | cub3s_: Like, I'm sure that if someone has a curated setup you can use, it works great |
| 11:22:34 | <merijn> | But if you don't have a nix expert on hand, be prepared to spend days getting it working :p |
| 11:22:53 | <merijn> | Meanwhile v2-build gives me, like, 80-90% of the benefit for 5% of the work :p |
| 11:23:23 | <maerwald> | static binaries, forget nix |
| 11:23:47 | <Arahael> | I still don't know how to use nix with a project. Do I have .nix files in teh repo, or keep it separate? How do I refer to the actual nix tree, etc. |
| 11:24:03 | <cub3s_> | i thought nixpkgs (or stack resolver) was supposed to provide curated package sets, thus adding to cabal |
| 11:24:05 | <maerwald> | although if your project is composed of several binaries (like blockchains)... static alone isn't enough |
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| 11:24:23 | <merijn> | maerwald: Oh, my one conclusion from my career so far, especially in science is: https://i.imgflip.com/586wyo.jpg |
| 11:24:26 | × | texasmynsted quits (~texasmyns@99.96.221.112) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 11:24:36 | <maerwald> | so cardanos daedalus uses nix under the hood to start up node/wallet etc |
| 11:24:36 | Alleria | is now known as Guest69224 |
| 11:24:37 | <Arahael> | That said, a nix-ified project is pretty nice to get into. nix-shell -p, and you're in an environment that's already setup to dev in it. |
| 11:24:51 | <maerwald> | I can see how that is actually a good use case |
| 11:25:04 | <maerwald> | but I don't envy the people maintaining it |
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| 11:25:22 | <merijn> | cub3s_: Well, that depends on how you value the curation (and what you expect that to entail) |
| 11:26:01 | <cub3s_> | merijn, maybe the fact is you don't encounter dependency hell that often in practice? |
| 11:26:05 | <merijn> | I mean, stack curation is mostly "check things build and run some of the tests" |
| 11:26:26 | <merijn> | cub3s_: v2-build has eliminated most of my pain wrt dependencies |
| 11:26:30 | <cub3s_> | (or maybe even the existence of stack/nixpkgs have themselves motivated devs to remove such dependency hells to begin with, leading to cabal being useful on its own??) |
| 11:26:32 | <Arahael> | I have dependency hell at work. :( |
| 11:26:48 | <Arahael> | merijn: Oh, today I made PROGRESS! :D I compiled half my project in xcode 12.5 :D |
| 11:26:49 | <merijn> | cub3s_: Most of the remaining issues with v2-build are just "trying to use bit-rotted packages" |
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| 11:27:37 | <merijn> | cub3s_: Depends, was your cabal experience with v1-build or v2-build? Because those are *very* different experiences :p |
| 11:27:41 | <maerwald> | merijn: cabal doesn't solve the problem sufficiently where you have many inter-dependent teams and projects that have different release schedules etc |
| 11:27:52 | <maerwald> | with stack you can say all of them use the same resolver |
| 11:28:01 | <maerwald> | you can't have a remote freeze file, for instance |
| 11:28:04 | <merijn> | maerwald: Sure, I'm not saying it solves every issue |
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| 11:28:27 | <merijn> | but also, not everyone is working in teams/setups like that |
| 11:28:37 | <Arahael> | maerwald: Incidentially, I found using stack with nix quite dificult, even though stack ostensibly supports nix. |
| 11:28:41 | <cub3s_> | merijn, probably v1 some years ago. honestly that must have been the reason we started using stack in the first place? hmm. |
| 11:28:48 | <merijn> | cub3s_: Probably |
| 11:29:33 | <merijn> | cub3s_: v2-build didn't get released until 2016 and wasn't the default until cabal 3.0, which is from...2019 |
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| 11:29:53 | <merijn> | cub3s_: So if you haven't used it, it's certainly worth trying again :) |
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| 11:30:07 | <cub3s_> | wow ok, very recent! ok yes i indeed remember "dangerous reinstall" lol |
| 11:30:13 | <merijn> | cub3s_: Oh yeah |
| 11:30:22 | <merijn> | cub3s_: That's from the era of pain :p |
| 11:30:27 | <cub3s_> | ok, so wow... maybe stack/nixpkgs are now obsolete! |
| 11:30:28 | <merijn> | cub3s_: It's incomparable with now |
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| 11:31:12 | <ccapndave> | Hey everyone - I am trying to upgrade my Haskell platform (because I haven't used it for ages and am about to start a course). I've installed gchup and everything looks fine, but I seem to have `~/.cabal.bin` in my PATH and I have absolutely no idea how its getting there. This is on MacOS with zsh. Does anyone have a clue where the path might be being set? |
| 11:31:15 | <merijn> | cub3s_: v2-build allows infintely parallel installs of the same package. Nix-inspired (every install tagged with hash of build flags and transitive dependencies) |
| 11:31:23 | <ccapndave> | Its not in `.zshrc`, `/etc/profile` or `/etc/zprofile` |
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| 11:31:45 | <cub3s_> | wow how did i not know about this... :S |
| 11:31:48 | <Arahael> | merijn: Very nice! |
| 11:31:48 | <cub3s_> | nix propaganda?? |
| 11:31:51 | <merijn> | cub3s_: When you build it computes a build-plan, and then dynamically exposes only the relevant installed packages for the build, so you no longer get conflicts between different projects on the same machine |
| 11:32:35 | <merijn> | cub3s_: Also massive improvements like "if you do a profiling build, it will just install missing profiling dependencies without breaking everything" :p |
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| 11:33:16 | <merijn> | cub3s_: Like I said, I like Nix *the idea* I just don't like the execution :p v2-build is the same idea (although limited to Haskell packages) |
| 11:33:37 | <merijn> | cub3s_: See also: https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/latest/nix-local-build-overview.html (although note that the v2- prefix is optional in 3.0 and later) |
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| 11:34:00 | <merijn> | Since it's now the default |
| 11:34:06 | <Arahael> | merijn: And I expect v2-build has a fighting chance of actually working on windows. |
| 11:34:18 | <Arahael> | I used to use nix on my mac, but I haven't for over two years. |
| 11:34:31 | <Arahael> | (It's just a super massive PITA on the mac, and you can't run "pure" anyway) |
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| 11:35:52 | <maerwald> | everything is a PITA on mac |
| 11:36:38 | Arahael | twitches |
| 11:36:39 | <merijn> | cub3s_: It doesn't solve issue with system/C package management and issues of "there is no buildplan", but with v2-build *if* there is a working buildplan it builds, which definitely wasn't the case in the "dangerous reinstall" era :p |
| 11:36:40 | <cub3s_> | yes i've abandoned mac because of it |
| 11:37:23 | <cub3s_> | merijn, for me these non-haskell dependencies are usually just a few apt install commands |
| 11:37:48 | <cub3s_> | that cabal documentation is nice! |
| 11:38:36 | × | dinciorip quits (~dincio@5.171.9.145) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 11:38:45 | <cub3s_> | "if b has a loose dependency on c such that it may bump a major version, or if the developer of c does not respect semver. a may cause c to be updated to a point where b does not work. Alternatively b may cause c to be held to a lower version than what a is expecting (because there was a bug fix in a minor version which b does not depend on) Now b will build with old c but a will fail. These are the issues with Cabal" |
| 11:38:49 | <cub3s_> | https://medium.com/@edmundnoble/cabal-or-stack-25886c0ac74f |
| 11:38:55 | <cub3s_> | does v2 solve this? |
| 11:39:22 | <maerwald> | I use stackage with cabak |
| 11:39:26 | <maerwald> | *cabal |
| 11:39:54 | <merijn> | cub3s_: No*, but Hackage supports revisions to retroactively apply upperbounds and unbreak build plans in these scenarios |
| 11:40:16 | <merijn> | cub3s_: You can also generate freeze files, that preserve the current buildplan exactly |
| 11:40:24 | <maerwald> | yeah, revisons are awful |
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| 11:40:48 | <merijn> | maerwald: revisions are a necessary evil as long as people insist on shitty upperbound hygiene |
| 11:41:21 | <cub3s_> | maerwald, you mean you use cabal with stackage instead of hackage, but don't use the "stack" tool? |
| 11:41:23 | <merijn> | cub3s_: Tangentially related, but many people don't know it exists: https://pvp.haskell.org/ |
| 11:41:45 | <merijn> | cub3s_: stackage is, effectively, just a freeze file of specific versions of packages |
| 11:41:58 | <merijn> | cub3s_: You can generate constraints from that and feed them to cabal-install |
| 11:42:06 | <maerwald> | merijn: no, they are not necessary. You can bump the version when fixing package metadata. It's also the fault of PVP for not having revisions |
| 11:42:06 | <merijn> | And get the same behaviour |
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| 11:42:27 | <maerwald> | so to fix one mistake, they made another |
| 11:42:45 | <maerwald> | now revisions are an infrastructure specific API |
| 11:42:49 | <merijn> | maerwald: How do you propose filtering the old, broken, version from buildplans? |
| 11:43:13 | <maerwald> | merijn: what do you mean? |
| 11:43:29 | <merijn> | cub3s_: Also related: https://gist.github.com/merijn/8152d561fb8b011f9313c48d876ceb07 |
| 11:43:47 | <merijn> | maerwald: Suppose foo-1.0.0 is released with no upperbound on bar, which breaks when bar is released |
| 11:44:10 | <merijn> | maerwald: How do I make sure the build-plan doesn't include foo-1.0.0 with the incompatible version of bar |
| 11:44:29 | <maerwald> | you release foo-1.0.1 |
| 11:44:39 | <merijn> | maerwald: That doesn't fix anything |
| 11:44:43 | <maerwald> | it does |
| 11:44:49 | <merijn> | maerwald: The solver still sees foo-1.0.0 and can't know its broken |
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| 11:45:14 | <merijn> | So the solver will still find buildplans using the broken -1.0.0 |
| 11:45:26 | <maerwald> | why would it? |
| 11:45:42 | <merijn> | You need to somehow tell the solver it cannot use foo-1.0.0 with bar X *or* remove foo-1.0.0 from the index (potentially breaking a lot more) |
| 11:45:53 | <merijn> | maerwald: Ok, let me sketch a scenario |
| 11:46:01 | <maerwald> | yes, broken versions can be removed |
| 11:46:05 | <maerwald> | that's what distros do |
| 11:46:09 | <maerwald> | all solved problems |
| 11:46:16 | <merijn> | maerwald: That is much more work |
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| 11:46:30 | <maerwald> | I think most of the time you don't need it |
| 11:46:33 | <merijn> | maerwald: Because now *everything* transitively depending on foo needs a new release |
| 11:46:34 | <maerwald> | cargo also works without it |
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| 11:47:23 | <maerwald> | merijn: what? |
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| 11:50:07 | <merijn> | foo-1.0.0 depends on bar, but without an upperbound. A new release, bar-2.0 comes out and breaks foo-1.0.0 due to foo not having an upperbound on bar. My package quux depends on: "foo == 1.0.0, bar >= 0.5 && < 2.1" The solver sees "foo-1.0.0" works with all versions of bar and sees "bar-2.0" so it generates that buildplan. Now things are broken, because foo-1.0.0 doesn't compile with bar-2.0. The solution |
| 11:50:13 | <merijn> | with revision is to update the upperbound of foo to exclude the (broken) bar-2.0, and then everything works |
| 11:50:46 | <maerwald> | merijn: ah, your problem... don't depend on == 1.0.0, use PVP upper bounds |
| 11:50:58 | <maerwald> | the only reason you would do == is freeze files |
| 11:51:04 | <merijn> | maerwald: Hackage has 10,000s of packages doing all sorts of stupid stuff |
| 11:51:16 | <merijn> | maerwald: Your solution would break tons of them |
| 11:51:16 | <maerwald> | and then you already have a working build plan and have bar fixed |
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| 11:51:37 | <maerwald> | merijn: no no... I'm not saying we can reasonably revert revisions |
| 11:51:43 | <maerwald> | I'm saying they were a mistake though |
| 11:51:56 | <merijn> | maerwald: The whole reason we need revisions is because people keep refusing to to add upperbounds at all, let alone proper PVP ones |
| 11:52:12 | <merijn> | maerwald: And your solution is "it's not a problem if you have proper PVP bounds"? |
| 11:52:30 | <merijn> | If we had that, we wouldn't need revisions in the first place |
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| 11:53:18 | <maerwald> | in-place updates have been frowned upon by anyone doing packaging in the last 30 years... we've successfully used revision bumps (as part of the actual package version) to fix metadata updates |
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| 11:53:38 | <maerwald> | I can't see why haskell would be special here |
| 11:53:52 | <merijn> | maerwald: The manpower to bump everything does not exist |
| 11:54:10 | <joel135> | What's PVP? |
| 11:54:37 | <hpc> | package versioning policy |
| 11:54:42 | <joel135> | Ok |
| 11:54:52 | <hpc> | https://pvp.haskell.org/ |
| 11:55:45 | <cub3s_> | thanks to you today i realized i was barking up a wrong nix tree. turns out i don't need nix. i don't need stack either. all i need: cabal-install and ghc of my choice. |
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| 11:55:48 | <cub3s_> | thanks a lot |
| 11:56:33 | <cub3s_> | btw i sadly noticed cryptonite doesn't follow pvp |
| 11:56:36 | <cub3s_> | causing some pain |
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| 11:57:55 | <maerwald> | merijn: you don't necessarily need mass updates... e.g. hackage could reject packages that pin micro versions |
| 11:59:52 | <yushyin> | for reference in cargo/crates.io you can mark a published package as 'yunk', thus it is not considered in future build plans. No revisions and it seems to work for them. |
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| 12:00:27 | <maerwald> | and then, as I've explained many times (again, this is what distros do since decades)... you could have CI that tests reverse dependencies (just the solving) when you release a new major API version |
| 12:01:09 | <maerwald> | you won't have 100% coverage, but well |
| 12:01:20 | <maerwald> | (due to flags/arches/...) |
| 12:01:43 | <merijn> | yushyin: revision are just "selective yunking" :p |
| 12:02:35 | <maerwald> | yushyin: yes, that's more reasonable |
| 12:02:38 | <merijn> | yushyin: I mean "foo-1.0.0" is fine in principle, just not with "bar-2.0" so why invalidate it entirely, if you can just invalidate it in combination with bar-2.0 |
| 12:03:33 | <maerwald> | yushyin: it also maintains the invariant that a tarball is a self-contained entity and a version fully describes the package |
| 12:03:49 | <maerwald> | revisions are just a dirty hack |
| 12:04:06 | <maerwald> | but then again, semver has actual revisions, PVP doesn't |
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| 12:11:58 | <maerwald> | now the only way to "pin" a revision is to pin the revision of ALL packages (hackage index) |
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| 12:12:21 | <maerwald> | stack has a way to pin a revision, but it's really against PVP |
| 12:12:40 | <maerwald> | so not sure what's good about this situation |
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| 12:17:26 | <tdammers> | at least pvp has a somewhat clear definition of what those numbers mean |
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| 12:19:20 | <maerwald> | yeah, haskell specific meaning |
| 12:19:50 | <tdammers> | of course. that's a big downside, it only really makes sense for languages with the same import/export/module semantics as Haskell |
| 12:19:53 | <maerwald> | I haven't made up my mind whether that's a doog thing |
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| 12:20:02 | <maerwald> | *good |
| 12:20:12 | <tdammers> | IMO the biggest issue with pvp is that it's still down to manual diligence |
| 12:20:27 | <merijn> | Pretty sure everyone wants a machine based PVP |
| 12:20:33 | <maerwald> | there seems to be a correlation between inhalation of soldering flux and my grammar... |
| 12:20:35 | <merijn> | but making that is...non-trivial |
| 12:20:44 | <tdammers> | merijn: indeed. |
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| 12:20:52 | <merijn> | Entirely unrelatedly |
| 12:21:03 | <yushyin> | btw. I also think it's just more common in cargo to use the semver operator '^x.y.z' (like cabals '>= ...') but in cargo the ^ operator is the default. if you specify = "x.y.y" it will be interpreted as "^x.y.z" |
| 12:21:15 | <merijn> | Do any of you guys know if there's a convenient standard interface for doing ARP lookups? |
| 12:21:25 | <maerwald> | yushyin: yeah, that's a preety nice hack imo |
| 12:22:09 | <merijn> | Before I go through the insanity of writing my own ARP requests using raw sockets... >.> |
| 12:22:14 | <tdammers> | I even suspect that a "machine based pvp" is practically impossible in Haskell, given the existence of TH and CPP and such |
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| 12:22:33 | <merijn> | tdammers: CPP needs to die anyway |
| 12:22:52 | <tdammers> | merijn: yes, but not until the remaining use cases have been dealt with |
| 12:22:57 | <merijn> | It's completely untenable |
| 12:23:13 | <merijn> | tdammers: Oh, we can probably keep most of the current functionality and semantics |
| 12:23:23 | <maerwald> | merijn: apple thought so too with swift (no CPP)... and I can tell you, you won't like it |
| 12:23:24 | <tdammers> | I'd even argue that reusing CPP as a source preprocessor language for Haskell was a mistake |
| 12:23:27 | <merijn> | We should just built it into GHC and not pretend it's CPP |
| 12:23:36 | <merijn> | tdammers: We don't use it |
| 12:23:40 | <merijn> | That's the problem |
| 12:24:01 | <tdammers> | I'm not talking about CPP the program, I'm talking about using CPP syntax |
| 12:24:32 | <merijn> | It's on my list of pet problems I will work on whenever someone wants to pay me to work on GHC or whenever I have time somewhere in the next decade :p |
| 12:24:50 | <yushyin> | like you said with revisions, it is sometimes a 'necessary evil' :P |
| 12:24:55 | <merijn> | yushyin: No |
| 12:25:11 | <merijn> | yushyin: CPP is different in that we are setting ourselves up for disaster |
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| 12:25:19 | <merijn> | There is no sane way to make CPP work with Haskell |
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| 12:25:35 | <merijn> | Enabling CPP *will* make whole bunches of valid Haskell code fail to compile |
| 12:25:48 | <merijn> | The CPP tokenization rules are fundamentally incompatible with Haskell |
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| 12:25:57 | <maerwald> | the most annoying thing about CPP is that it breaks so many tools |
| 12:26:03 | <tdammers> | which is exactly why I'm saying that using CPP syntax for preprocessing Haskell code was not the right choice |
| 12:26:04 | <merijn> | We already need use crazy legacy/-traditional switches to make GCC/clang work |
| 12:26:29 | <maerwald> | find me a source code prettifier that can handle CPP (correctly) :p |
| 12:26:39 | <merijn> | tdammers: CPP with Haskell specific tokenisation would be fine, and probably function unchanged for 98% of Hackage uses |
| 12:26:47 | <tdammers> | on a completely unrelated side note, the semver spec is full of condescending bullshit |
| 12:27:17 | <merijn> | Versioning is hell, but that's a boring topic. Let's get back to my question: How do I do ARP lookups? >.> |
| 12:27:31 | <maerwald> | perl did some funny stuff with versioning |
| 12:28:06 | <yushyin> | please don't start with that mess :D |
| 12:28:23 | <merijn> | I really don't wanna implement ARP myself using raw sockets :( |
| 12:28:29 | <edmundnoble> | cub3s_: that article came out after nix-style builds became the default in cabal, it's still current as far as I know |
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| 12:29:44 | <tdammers> | personally, I think that if you want to get rid of manual diligence being a factor in versioning, then there are two realistic strategies: A) just pin everything down to exact matches (either by vendoring in your dependencies verbatim, or using freeze files, or via content-addressable code), and B) develop a language that has such fine-grained dependency inference that you can resolve dependencies on a |
| 12:29:46 | <tdammers> | per-identifier basis |
| 12:30:33 | <maerwald> | what if API doesn't break, but behavior changes? |
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| 12:30:49 | <maerwald> | wrt B) |
| 12:31:04 | <tdammers> | pin it down with types, I guess |
| 12:31:34 | <maerwald> | I mean the big seller of semver, PVP etc were: you can break behavior without renaming your function |
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| 12:32:07 | <tdammers> | except that you really are renaming your function |
| 12:32:15 | <tdammers> | it's just indirect |
| 12:32:37 | <maerwald> | so we can have versions per identifier? :) |
| 12:32:41 | <tdammers> | pmuch |
| 12:33:08 | <maerwald> | so solving will take more time than compiling, I guess |
| 12:33:16 | <tdammers> | it depends though |
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| 12:33:35 | <tdammers> | if you combine it with content-addressable identifiers and freezing, then you won't need to do a full solver run very often |
| 12:33:35 | <yushyin> | cargo does this btw. |
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| 12:34:44 | <tdammers> | also: when the behavior of a function changes, then as a consumer of the API, you 1) want to know, and 2) likely want to keep using the old version until you decide that the new version has advantages that are worth changing your code for |
| 12:35:37 | <tdammers> | in this context, I also think that there is no such thing as a "compatible bugfix". if you don't change the behavior, then it's not a bugfix; but if you do change the behavior, then it's no longer the same thing, and thus not compatible |
| 12:36:00 | <merijn> | carter: You're not in numerical-haskell! :O |
| 12:36:24 | <carter> | Watt |
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| 13:02:48 | <edmundnoble> | Are there any semantic gotchas involved in using `par` with side effects? |
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| 13:03:42 | <edmundnoble> | I have heard that `par` creates "sparks" which are essentially items to be put on a work queue and "sparked" (executed on a new Haskell thread) only when a processor is idle, whereas `forkIO` unconditionally forks a new Haskell thread |
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| 13:05:09 | <edmundnoble> | In the case that my side effects do not interfere with each other, is there any way to use `par`'s sparks and scheduler to parallelize them? |
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| 13:08:11 | <edmundnoble> | I guess there is an obvious way using `unsafeInterleaveIO`, but is it going to do anything crazy like leave resources allocated by those sparks open if the sparks are GC'd |
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| 13:09:17 | <merijn> | edmundnoble: Why do you not wanna create threads? |
| 13:09:50 | <merijn> | Or: why do you imagine sparks would be better? |
| 13:10:14 | <edmundnoble> | Sparks are executed only when a processor is idle, and scheduled by the GHC runtime |
| 13:10:31 | <edmundnoble> | Writing or using another scheduler, and having the two interact, doesn't sound nearly as clean to me |
| 13:11:06 | <edmundnoble> | All I am interested in is knowledge of the safety of using `par` with side effects |
| 13:11:18 | <merijn> | why would you need to write another scheduler? |
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| 13:11:38 | <edmundnoble> | Because I want my computations to be scheduled, rather than all run concurrently |
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| 13:11:57 | <edmundnoble> | Similar to the thing async-pool does |
| 13:11:59 | <merijn> | par assumes you don't do side-effects, so if you do, well, sucks to be you, then |
| 13:12:15 | <merijn> | Pretty sure async-pool just uses forkIO |
| 13:12:18 | <edmundnoble> | Okay, but what are the actual semantic issues |
| 13:12:21 | <edmundnoble> | Yes, exactly |
| 13:12:23 | <edmundnoble> | That is what I'm asking about |
| 13:12:38 | <edmundnoble> | How can I do this in a way which is program-global, using the scheduler that sparks use |
| 13:12:50 | <edmundnoble> | Rather than delimiting these work groups in which the concurrency is limited |
| 13:12:51 | <merijn> | There's a whole lotta unstated context here |
| 13:13:06 | <edmundnoble> | I would just like an answer to my question |
| 13:13:32 | <edmundnoble> | What kind of craziness can I expect if I should spark a computation in IO? |
| 13:14:00 | <merijn> | any arbitrary interleaving |
| 13:15:11 | <merijn> | If you sneak IO into sparks, then you get the same craziness as sneaking IO into any context where things are expected to be pure. That is, arbitrary unpredictable interleaving and breaking purity |
| 13:15:21 | <edmundnoble> | Arbitrary unpredictable interleaving makes sense to me |
| 13:15:31 | <edmundnoble> | Breaking purity? |
| 13:15:56 | <edmundnoble> | Let's say I have encapsulated this into a function `sched :: IO a -> IO (IO a)` |
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| 13:16:27 | <edmundnoble> | The real scary shit I'm thinking of by analogy here is what happens when you `unsafePerformIO` inside of `STM` |
| 13:16:40 | <edmundnoble> | Because no exception handlers are run |
| 13:16:42 | <merijn> | I just don't see how "par" is remotely relevant when you already have IO anyway |
| 13:17:08 | <edmundnoble> | I already told you, I want to use the spark scheduler. I don't want to limit concurrency by hand when there is a scheduler already there and capable of doing it for me |
| 13:17:24 | <merijn> | edmundnoble: How is that different from threads? |
| 13:18:05 | <hyperisco> | if I just want to parse cli options (not also have a dispatch framework) what can I use? |
| 13:18:10 | <tdammers> | Possibly relevant and not entirely obvious: a Haskell thread is not an OS thread (a.k.a. "capability"); spawning a Haskell thread is MUCH cheaper than spawning an OS thread with, say pthread |
| 13:18:15 | <carbolymer> | Can I trigger GC from outside of Haskell process? |
| 13:18:29 | <edmundnoble> | Well I'm not entirely sure, but it seems to me that Haskell threads are switched between extremely often |
| 13:18:35 | <edmundnoble> | So say I have `n` tasks of roughly the same shape |
| 13:18:40 | <edmundnoble> | Regardless of how cheap Haskell threads are |
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| 13:18:51 | <edmundnoble> | If I run `n` of them concurrently, I can expect a cost of `n` times as much memory usage |
| 13:18:57 | <merijn> | edmundnoble: And what makes you think the same won't happen for sparks? |
| 13:19:05 | <edmundnoble> | Because sparks are run on idle processors |
| 13:19:09 | <hyperisco> | should be as simple as getting a [(Text,Text)] and a [Text] |
| 13:19:11 | <tdammers> | Haskell threads are "green threads", they are distributed over a number of OS threads ("capabilities") as the RTS sees fit, though you have some influence on the heuristics |
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| 13:19:25 | <hyperisco> | which I can just do myself really |
| 13:19:26 | <merijn> | edmundnoble: "idle processor" just means "capability not currently executing a Haskell thread" |
| 13:19:40 | <edmundnoble> | Yes |
| 13:19:43 | <edmundnoble> | That makes sense to me |
| 13:19:55 | <edmundnoble> | The difference is |
| 13:20:05 | <merijn> | edmundnoble: Nothing about sparks guarantees they evaluate to completion before being pre-empted, though |
| 13:20:06 | <edmundnoble> | Once you've got each capability running a spark |
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| 13:20:22 | <edmundnoble> | Uh |
| 13:20:29 | <merijn> | at least, nothing I'm aware off |
| 13:20:31 | <edmundnoble> | Is that true? I have read that sparks are only run on idle processors... |
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| 13:20:39 | <merijn> | edmundnoble: So? |
| 13:20:43 | <mniip> | so do threads |
| 13:20:47 | <merijn> | edmundnoble: How does that guarantee they won't be interrupted? |
| 13:20:56 | <edmundnoble> | They won't be interrupted by other sparks |
| 13:21:00 | <edmundnoble> | That's the only thing I'm asking for |
| 13:21:07 | <merijn> | edmundnoble: Won't they be? |
| 13:21:18 | <edmundnoble> | Again, sparks are only run on idle processors |
| 13:21:24 | <merijn> | edmundnoble: So? |
| 13:21:28 | <edmundnoble> | If a processor running a spark has been interrupted, it was given work |
| 13:21:31 | <edmundnoble> | So it's not idle |
| 13:21:35 | <merijn> | edmundnoble: That just means "we don't unschedule Haskell threads" |
| 13:21:49 | <merijn> | edmundnoble: It doesn't say "and we will process a spark until completion without preemption" |
| 13:22:04 | <edmundnoble> | If a spark has already been sparked, it's been converted to a Haskell thread |
| 13:22:10 | <edmundnoble> | This conversion as far as I understand is one-way |
| 13:22:19 | <edmundnoble> | If you have enough Haskell threads to saturate the available capabilities |
| 13:22:32 | <merijn> | sparks are never haskell threads, sparks, as far as I recall, are a completely separate abstraction in the RTS |
| 13:22:33 | <edmundnoble> | And the threads don't go idel |
| 13:22:59 | <mniip> | I think you're asking for thread priorities? |
| 13:23:13 | <edmundnoble> | Sparks are converted into threads |
| 13:23:15 | <edmundnoble> | That's what "sparking" is |
| 13:23:23 | <merijn> | mniip: It's unclear, because not enough unstated context |
| 13:23:40 | <int-e> | edmundnoble: No. There are worker threads that grab items from a queue of sparks and execute them. |
| 13:23:52 | <merijn> | edmundnoble: Where does it say that? |
| 13:23:56 | <int-e> | So it's the same thread for many sparks. |
| 13:23:58 | <merijn> | edmundnoble: I've never seen that in any paper |
| 13:24:05 | <edmundnoble> | The user's guide for GHC |
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| 13:24:29 | <edmundnoble> | So wait, to be clear |
| 13:24:39 | <int-e> | (and these threads are scheduled on capabilities that would otherwise be idle) |
| 13:24:57 | <edmundnoble> | Right okay, so sparks are run on worker threads which are scheduled on capabilities that are otherwise idle |
| 13:25:01 | <merijn> | edmundnoble: I don't see any reference to that in the user guide? Where did you see that? |
| 13:25:23 | <merijn> | (the sparking converting to threads) |
| 13:26:48 | <merijn> | I mean, sparks are just a work queue with dynamically spawned worker threads evaluating them, if you're in IO you might as well fork a number of worker threads and use a queue and get literally the same behaviour without needing to do a whole investigation whether its safe to do IO |
| 13:26:53 | <edmundnoble> | int-e: I'm wondering if I can sanely use these worker threads and the queue for computations in IO |
| 13:27:06 | <merijn> | edmundnoble: Not sanely, no |
| 13:27:33 | <merijn> | "crazily" might be possible, given sufficient effort, but why bother |
| 13:27:57 | <int-e> | hmm, I have seen the "conversion" terminology somewhere though |
| 13:27:59 | <edmundnoble> | Essentially my question is whether I can get a program-wide way to limit concurrency which instead of interfering with the spark queue, cooperates with it |
| 13:28:05 | <int-e> | (a spark is either converted or fizzles) |
| 13:28:12 | <yushyin> | 'If the runtime detects that there is an idle CPU, then it may convert a spark into a real thread' https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/exts/concurrent.html?#annotating-pure-code-for-parallelism |
| 13:28:25 | <int-e> | it's just the notion that each spark becomes its own thread that does not correspond to reality |
| 13:28:32 | <merijn> | edmundnoble: I mean, you can just spawn a limited number of workers using a single queue and then you're done? |
| 13:28:35 | <yushyin> | don't know what a 'real thread' is in this context |
| 13:28:44 | <edmundnoble> | A Haskell thread, I think, yushyin |
| 13:29:10 | <edmundnoble> | Right, that would be the idea merijn, but I see no reason to have two schedulers in my program when one can do just as well |
| 13:29:23 | <merijn> | Where does the 2nd scheduler come in? |
| 13:29:26 | <int-e> | yushyin: I mean a separate forkIO/createThread() setup. |
| 13:29:29 | <merijn> | Why do you need a 2nd scheduler? |
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| 13:29:39 | <edmundnoble> | Oh you know what scheduler is the wrong term |
| 13:29:51 | <merijn> | Just spawn threads and put out work as needed? |
| 13:29:52 | <edmundnoble> | Two work queues distributing work to Haskell threads |
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| 13:30:07 | <merijn> | Why would there be two queues? |
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| 13:30:22 | <edmundnoble> | There's one queue for sparks, and one queue for my workers |
| 13:30:58 | <merijn> | the spark queue only exists if you have sparks, though |
| 13:31:48 | <edmundnoble> | Okay, so why should there be two queues and two sets of worker threads if I have sparks and I have my own tasks? |
| 13:32:13 | <int-e> | yushyin: of course that's an implementation detail; pure code is not allowed to care about threads |
| 13:32:15 | <merijn> | because IO is not a spark task |
| 13:32:36 | <edmundnoble> | And... why not |
| 13:32:44 | <edmundnoble> | What kind of craziness could I expect? |
| 13:32:45 | <merijn> | Because spark tasks *must* be pure |
| 13:32:59 | <edmundnoble> | Really? |
| 13:33:01 | <merijn> | Because they may or may not be evaluated in parallel (or at all!) |
| 13:33:18 | <merijn> | If you have side-effects then it matters whether you get evaluated and in which order |
| 13:33:28 | <int-e> | all this talk about sparks not being interrupted really just means that unsafePerformIO in sparks is about as safe as anywhere else outside of STM. |
| 13:33:30 | <edmundnoble> | Okay, and what if I have side effects which don't need to be evaluated at all, or in parallel |
| 13:33:32 | <merijn> | The entire reason sparks exists is to do evaluation of pure code in parallel |
| 13:33:46 | <merijn> | int-e: That was my point, yes |
| 13:34:03 | <int-e> | merijn: sorry, I didn't read much of context |
| 13:34:12 | <merijn> | In essence this entire line of questions boils down to "is unsafePerformIO bad?" |
| 13:34:15 | <edmundnoble> | Nah |
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| 13:34:23 | <merijn> | To which the answer is: Yes |
| 13:34:34 | <edmundnoble> | It actually boils down to "what semantic insanity can I expect *specifically* from using unsafePerformIO in sparks" |
| 13:34:41 | <edmundnoble> | This was, in fact, my initial question |
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| 13:35:04 | <edmundnoble> | Actually I'd be using `unsafeInterleaveIO`, but that's beside the point I think |
| 13:35:10 | <merijn> | edmundnoble: 'everything you can expect in any other scenario, which is roughly "anything"' |
| 13:35:24 | <edmundnoble> | I was indeed asking about the crazy stuff like STM retries not executing exception handlers |
| 13:35:38 | <edmundnoble> | Yeah, I don't really buy that you can expect "anything" when using `unsafeInterleaveIO` |
| 13:35:40 | <Uniaika> | hey edmundnoble :) |
| 13:35:57 | <edmundnoble> | Hey Uniaika |
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| 13:37:01 | <carbolymer> | I took a heap profile, and OTHER is 60% of the heap - any ideas what's that? |
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| 13:37:58 | <edmundnoble> | Anyway I guess that's my answer, which for the record is "none" |
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| 13:44:57 | <hyperisco> | I am using VSCode with the Haskell IDE and I am getting hlint warnings asking me to switch \x -> f (g (h x)) to f . g . h but I don't want to |
| 13:45:03 | <hyperisco> | how can I disable these lint warnings? |
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| 13:45:50 | <edmundnoble> | hyperisco: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/34356510/how-to-disable-codelens-in-vs-code |
| 13:46:01 | <edmundnoble> | IIRC you can only disable all of them or none, unfortunately |
| 13:46:45 | <hyperisco> | I've never used a linter, never liked them, so fortunate enough ;) |
| 13:46:54 | <edmundnoble> | https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/IfGUU0mv/ |
| 13:47:06 | <edmundnoble> | -- Also for reference |
| 13:47:06 | <edmundnoble> | evalSpark :: IO a -> IO (IO a) |
| 13:47:06 | <edmundnoble> | evalSpark act = do |
| 13:47:06 | <edmundnoble> | act' <- unsafeInterleaveIO act |
| 13:47:06 | <edmundnoble> | par act' (pure $ evaluate act') |
| 13:48:18 | <fendor> | hyperisco, since it is hlint, I *think* you can disable specific hlint rules |
| 13:48:49 | <int-e> | edmundnoble: what's that supposed to achieve? |
| 13:48:53 | <hyperisco> | I turned off codeLens but I am sstill getting hlint |
| 13:49:10 | <fendor> | hyperisco, hlint is not a code-lint but diagnostic |
| 13:49:20 | <fendor> | you can disable hlint altogether in the settings |
| 13:49:25 | <fendor> | *codelens, iirc |
| 13:49:45 | <fendor> | however, I think you can disable specific lints |
| 13:50:15 | <hyperisco> | ah I found hlint diagnostics setting in the extension settings, disabled it |
| 13:50:25 | <int-e> | edmundnoble: Oh, never mind, I see. Eww. |
| 13:50:30 | <edmundnoble> | Executing `evalSpark act` creates a spark which when evaluated executes `act`, and returns an IO action. When that action has been executed, you know for sure `act` really has been evaluated. |
| 13:50:39 | <edmundnoble> | Haha I was hoping it would be clear |
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| 13:51:42 | <edmundnoble> | `act` really has been executed* |
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| 13:52:05 | <int-e> | edmundnoble: anyway, I guess you're not incurring any problems on top of those that unsafeInterleaveIO has. |
| 13:53:15 | <int-e> | which are basically the same as those of unsafePerformIO, minus concerns of accidental duplication through inlining. |
| 13:54:18 | <edmundnoble> | I think you can also get accidental deduplication through CSE, same reason |
| 13:54:26 | <edmundnoble> | Er same fix |
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| 13:56:09 | <edmundnoble> | But yeah this is definitely subject to the same things as unsafeInterleaveIO, and almost the same as you basically want anyway for things you can schedule onto workers |
| 13:56:47 | <edmundnoble> | Arbitrary interleaving, with the added benefit that you can throw away your reference to the returned IO action and the spark will just disappear into the ether |
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| 14:14:21 | <absence> | are CmpNat and CmpSymbol in GHC.TypeLits magical? can't find something that looks like implementations |
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| 14:15:56 | <jollygood2> | hi. is there a way to abstract this code away, and avoid repeating every case for every type? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/SUJSUGZS |
| 14:16:21 | <jollygood2> | missing {-# Language TypeApplications #-} |
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| 14:22:49 | <jollygood2> | calcWith @Int sum' n works too. maybe slightly nicer, but I still have the same amount of boilerplate. I'd basically need a String -> Type function, that can be used with @ or ::, and I don't think that is possible.. but who knows :) |
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| 14:25:13 | <edwardk> | absence: yes |
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| 14:28:29 | <absence> | edwardk: thanks |
| 14:29:15 | <l-as> | Does anyone know if there's a way of running multiple GHCi instances on the same GHC process, so that each new instance doesn't use ~100 MiB extra memory? |
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| 14:33:24 | <geekosaur> | not built in. it might be possible to implement using ghc-api, but I'd bet on most of that 100 MiB coming along with each instance |
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| 14:36:47 | <geekosaur> | come to think of it, the runtime won't expect to be split over multiple instances so there will be interference from multiple terminals, interleaved gcs, etc. |
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| 14:40:11 | <Gurkenglas> | Consider two bots playing Prisoner's Dilemma. A bot can pose questions to a provability oracle about what he and his opponent will end up doing, and is supposed to return what he does. What language and what libaries should I use to talk about all the possible bots and the graph of who would decide what against whom? |
| 14:42:27 | <Gurkenglas> | (For example, Cooperatebot always cooperates, Fairbot cooperates iff he can prove that the opponent cooperates, and Prudentbot cooperates iff he can prove that both will do the same.) |
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| 14:43:08 | <Gurkenglas> | (And Paladinbot, which cooperates iff the opponent would cooperates against Cooperatebot, can't be implemented.) |
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| 14:45:31 | <chisui> | Gurkenglas are these bots different processes? If not you could implement them all in the same application. You wouldn't need any frameworks |
| 14:46:23 | <Gurkenglas> | chisui, I expect that some language makes it easy to define and work with these. |
| 14:46:43 | <l-as> | geekosaur: Thanks. I'll likely have to make something myself then. |
| 14:46:51 | <l-as> | I'm trying to use GHCi as a shell, and it works mostly fine, except that part. |
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| 14:48:57 | <chisui> | Gurkenglas So you want to define a protocol that can be implemented by multiple clients? What are your requirements/constraints? |
| 14:50:14 | <Gurkenglas> | chisui, I expect all the experiments to happen on a single machine. I don't plan for the bots to know anything about the hardware. |
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| 14:57:25 | <safinaskar> | why this two pages look different? http://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-prim-0.7.0/docs/GHC-CString.html http://hackage.haskell.org/package/kleene-0.1/docs/Kleene-ERE.html |
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| 14:57:55 | <safinaskar> | the first has purple heading, the second has black one |
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| 14:58:14 | <thblt> | I've implemented a Writer as a small learning exercise, and I think the implementation for >>= could be nicer. It's here: https://paste.thb.lt/1620139243.hs.html Any ideas? Thanks. |
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| 15:00:46 | <mniip> | safinaskar, new haddock vs old haddock |
| 15:01:03 | <safinaskar> | mniip: why not regenerate all docs? |
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| 15:01:11 | <merijn> | safinaskar: Docs are generated at build time |
| 15:01:22 | <boxscape> | % ((undefined :: b) :: forall a . a) :: forall b . b |
| 15:01:23 | <yahb> | boxscape: ; <interactive>:31:3: error:; * Couldn't match expected type `a' with actual type `b1'; `a' is a rigid type variable bound by; an expression type signature:; forall a. a; at <interactive>:31:22-33; `b1' is a rigid type variable bound by; an expression type signature:; forall b1. b1; at <interactive>:31:39-50; * In the expression: ((undef |
| 15:01:26 | <merijn> | safinaskar: Because building docs requires compiling and ancient packages may not compile anymore |
| 15:01:28 | <boxscape> | seems kind of weird that this doesn't work |
| 15:01:40 | <safinaskar> | merijn: mniip: ok, thanks |
| 15:01:46 | <boxscape> | % ((undefined :: a) :: forall a . a) :: forall b . b |
| 15:01:46 | <yahb> | boxscape: *** Exception: Prelude.undefined; CallStack (from HasCallStack):; error, called at libraries/base/GHC/Err.hs:75:14 in base:GHC.Err; undefined, called at <interactive>:32:3 in interactive:Ghci16 |
| 15:01:52 | <boxscape> | whereas this does |
| 15:02:10 | <mniip> | scopedTyVars? |
| 15:02:13 | <boxscape> | yes |
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| 15:03:08 | <mniip> | % :set -XNoScopedTypeVariables |
| 15:03:08 | <yahb> | mniip: |
| 15:03:10 | <mniip> | % ((undefined :: b) :: forall a . a) :: forall b . b |
| 15:03:10 | <yahb> | mniip: *** Exception: Prelude.undefined; CallStack (from HasCallStack):; error, called at libraries/base/GHC/Err.hs:75:14 in base:GHC.Err; undefined, called at <interactive>:35:3 in interactive:Ghci17 |
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| 15:31:59 | <antoniotrkdz> | hi |
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| 15:36:02 | <boxscape> | hello |
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| 15:44:46 | <ADG1089> | heya |
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| 15:52:20 | <tomspencer> | hi! just started with haskell! |
| 15:52:32 | <boxscape> | hi :) |
| 15:53:04 | <antoniotrkdz> | does anybody know a way to make xmonad log applet clickable |
| 15:53:06 | <antoniotrkdz> | ? |
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| 15:54:38 | <tomspencer> | Hi antoniotrkdz! Try this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCzuMHU3Qtw for xmonad! |
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| 15:55:45 | <antoniotrkdz> | thanks tomspencer but I am not using xmobar, I am using the applet for the mate panel |
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| 15:56:10 | <tomspencer> | Cool. Not sure then. |
| 15:56:28 | <tomspencer> | Thanks Antoniotrkdz! |
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| 16:05:26 | <davve_> | hey haskell wizards, have a xmonad related question also. I found this function/managehook which sets the opacity of all created windows. it works great but in some cases I don't want transparency (for some floated applications) - could anyone help me out rewriting it to ignore (ideally a blacklist) of WM classes? http://vpaste.net/Uxa7W |
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| 16:14:10 | <davve_> | just a nudge in the right direction would be cool :) I assume id there is the WM class. so basically checking if that is different than some other class, then call setOpacity like its already doing |
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| 16:15:34 | <davve_> | or not included in a list of strings.. to do the blacklist |
| 16:16:13 | <absence> | is xmonad an application written in haskell or something? |
| 16:16:30 | <geekosaur> | yes, see #xmonad |
| 16:16:42 | <davve_> | aye |
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| 16:18:23 | <geekosaur> | it'd be easier to do this from the manageHook because that's where you have e.g. className |
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| 16:41:17 | <DigitalKiwi> | absence: yeah see it turns out there have only ever been 3 haskell applications written; ghc, pandoc, and xmonad |
| 16:44:12 | <davve_> | geekosaur: i see |
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| 16:48:24 | <geekosaur> | hledger and git-annex also come to mind |
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| 16:50:22 | <DigitalKiwi> | geekosaur: but that ruins the joke :( |
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| 16:59:51 | <thblt> | DigitalKiwi: In all fairness xmonad and pandoc had *already* ruined the joke. |
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| 17:00:28 | <davve_> | was it a joke or a silent plead for more software written in haskell? |
| 17:00:53 | <thblt> | Apparently there are five already, isn't that enough? |
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| 17:01:10 | <tomspencer> | |
| 17:01:11 | <davve_> | quality over quantity, I guess |
| 17:01:12 | <tomspencer> | |
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| 17:02:25 | <DigitalKiwi> | there's glirc and hakyll too |
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| 17:06:31 | <maerwald> | I feel we need to write a haskell version of https://github.com/buttplugio/buttplug-rs |
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| 17:08:29 | <xerox_> | when you have an explicit export list how do you enter a repl that gives you access to all the stuff that isn't in the export list? I'm using cabal repl, I thought :module Foo would do it but no joy |
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| 17:11:19 | <geekosaur> | you need a * prefixed to get it to recompile from source, an object file literally does not have the names available |
| 17:11:30 | <geekosaur> | :m *Foo |
| 17:12:22 | <geekosaur> | but cabal repl may not be able to do that properly, it behaves oddly when multiple modules are involved |
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| 17:13:46 | <monochrom> | :load or :add |
| 17:13:55 | <xerox_> | beautiful! I noticed * in :help but no idea what it meant, thank you |
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| 17:14:31 | <xerox_> | ah I guess you could deduce it from the :browse entry that expands on it a lil bit |
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| 17:14:37 | <geekosaur> | also what monochrom said |
| 17:15:11 | <xerox_> | ok :^) |
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| 17:16:07 | <monochrom> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/ghci.html#ghci-scope |
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| 17:22:17 | <moet> | anybody know how to use a servant `StreamBody ... :> StreamPost ...` endpoint from a servant generated client? you end up in a situation like this `downStream <- rpc upStream` which blocks until `rpc` disconnects.. you can't ever process downStream |
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| 17:25:11 | <moet> | the cookbook shows an example of a handler for such a bidirectional streaming endpoint, but it doesn't show how to call it from a client: https://docs.servant.dev/en/stable/cookbook/basic-streaming/Streaming.html |
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| 17:31:19 | <moet> | ok, studying the cookbook example a bit more it seems i might be uing `withClientM` incorrectly.. i was trying to do all the processing in the first argument (the client action) rather than the final argument (the inside of the `with` context) |
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| 17:35:45 | <moet> | that doesn't seem to fix it either.. same behavior; the final argument just isn't called until the rpc disconnects |
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| 17:40:25 | <cub3s_> | It seems to me that a lot of Haskellers flocked to Stack or Nix before Nix-style builds (v2) existed in Cabal. |
| 17:40:26 | <cub3s_> | But now that v2 builds exist in Cabal, it seems to me that there is absolutely no need anymore for Stack or Nix for 90% of Haskellers. |
| 17:40:26 | <cub3s_> | Change my mind. |
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| 17:43:47 | <sm[m]> | cub3s_: stack still has benefits for some - better usability, reproducability as default, less legacy confusion, stackage integration, certain features that work smoother |
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| 17:44:34 | <sm[m]> | likewise nix - whole-system/multi-language package management, not just haskell |
| 17:45:06 | <monochrom> | Don't answer to provocative tactics such as "prove me wrong" or "change my mind" or "haskell can't convert a number to a string". |
| 17:45:58 | <sm[m]> | why not, I just logged on and I'm fresh! :) |
| 17:46:33 | <sm[m]> | plus, very few folks here speak of stack's strengths, it's my duty |
| 17:46:51 | <cub3s_> | all i meant is, i've been using stack (a little nix) until now. just wanted someone to convince me to keep using those since i just found out about v2 today |
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| 17:48:03 | <sm[m]> | stack also was and maybe still is a bit more maintained / easier to contribute to |
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| 17:48:43 | <sm[m]> | don't feel bad for using it, by all means learn both, they each are better in certain situations |
| 17:48:56 | <monochrom> | Logically, unless stack is being obsoleted, there is no to leave what you have invested in. I would think that's reason enough. |
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| 17:49:50 | <monochrom> | If not, you have much deeper psychological issues. Talk to a counselor. |
| 17:50:15 | <monochrom> | s/no to/no need to/ |
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| 17:53:23 | <edmundnoble> | If you don't really care about stackage, and you use stack, you still pay for stackage |
| 17:53:36 | <sclv> | nix shines when its not just haskell but part of a full application/appliance for production imho |
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| 17:56:00 | <sm[m]> | edmundnoble: yes, stack is not as good at finding free-form custom install plans. I wish it had not dropped that bit of cabal that used to be integrated |
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| 17:56:25 | <sm[m]> | one of these days we'll have a tool that does it all |
| 17:56:36 | <cub3s_> | soon(tm) |
| 17:56:49 | <edmundnoble> | cabal can be used with stackage |
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| 18:16:47 | <moet> | here's my minimal repro: https://termbin.com/h71l |
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| 18:17:15 | <moet> | it's 99 lines and attempts to implement a little "netcat over http" using a single servant endpoint |
| 18:17:39 | <moet> | the "up stream" works fine.. |
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| 18:18:00 | <moet> | the "down stream" reference is never obtained by the client, and therefore never starts processing on the client side, though the server side appears to be working fine |
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| 18:20:04 | <moet> | the server side might also leak a thread, but i'm not really concerned with that right now if i can't get bidirectional streaming to work anyway |
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| 18:33:08 | <monochrom> | I don't know servant, but I just feel that traditionally the phrase "remote procedure call" doubles down on the aspect of "procedure call" in being highly batch mode and "you won't hear from me until I terminate", totally anti-interactive. |
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| 18:35:05 | grumble | is now known as Guest31287 |
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| 18:35:08 | <fresheyeball> | Anyone know how to use profiling with GHCjs? |
| 18:35:27 | <fresheyeball> | luite: can you help out? |
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| 18:51:56 | <moet> | monochrom: well, rpc is my word to describe what's going on |
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| 18:52:08 | <moet> | monochrom: servant just calls them client functions |
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| 18:52:43 | <moet> | and servant supports both streaming bodies and streaming responses ... which i've used separately with success in the past |
| 18:52:51 | <moet> | just curious about how to use them together |
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| 19:56:19 | <safinaskar> | i have tests in my program for doctest/quickcheck |
| 19:56:28 | <safinaskar> | similar to this: |
| 19:56:38 | <safinaskar> | -- prop> 2 + a = a + 2 |
| 19:56:44 | <safinaskar> | -- prop> 2 + a == a + 2 |
| 19:57:12 | <safinaskar> | i run "doctest a.hs" and it works. how to erlarge number of quickcheck passes? |
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| 20:11:29 | <davve_> | &40 |
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| 20:44:18 | <safinaskar> | % length [] |
| 20:44:18 | <yahb> | safinaskar: 0 |
| 20:44:35 | <safinaskar> | why this works? ghc doesn't know monomorphic type of "[]" here |
| 20:44:58 | <geekosaur> | :t length |
| 20:45:00 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t => t a -> Int |
| 20:45:33 | <geekosaur> | the type signature says it works for any a, so it can't look at the contents, only the list itself |
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| 20:45:54 | <Uniaika> | safinaskar: it's not monomorphic, Foldable takes the helm |
| 20:46:24 | <Uniaika> | and you've given it something like [] @a so it's polymorphic in the inner element |
| 20:46:31 | <geekosaur> | and when it goes to pick a type for it, it picks [] for t and () for a because of ExtendedDefaultRules |
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| 20:47:42 | <geekosaur> | in a program it usually has more to infer on, but will complain with default defaulting |
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| 20:48:00 | <safinaskar> | "default defaulting"... |
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| 20:48:33 | <geekosaur> | I think even the Report uses that terminology |
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| 20:48:57 | <Uniaika> | :') |
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| 20:52:31 | <safinaskar> | ok, thanks |
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| 21:25:11 | <safinaskar> | i just have read that "read world haskell" has some outdated info on exceptions. is it true? |
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| 21:32:46 | <geekosaur> | yes |
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| 21:33:06 | <geekosaur> | the extensible exceptions mechanism was introduced right after it was printed |
| 21:33:20 | <geekosaur> | there's an updated version of RWH somewhere |
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| 21:34:50 | <geekosaur> | https://github.com/tssm/up-to-date-real-world-haskell I think? |
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| 21:43:03 | <safinaskar> | geekosaur: thanks |
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| 21:52:59 | <Arahael> | I think "real world haskell" should have a bigger focus on FFI these days. |
| 21:53:37 | <Arahael> | Especially with inline-cc, inline-rust, or whatever, haskell does a crazy good job at that. |
| 21:53:47 | Arahael | hasn't tried them, done them with rust instead. |
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| 22:01:38 | <dmj`> | haskell ffi is fantastic |
| 22:01:47 | <dmj`> | haskell probably wouldn't be usable w/o it |
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| 22:06:50 | <Arahael> | Truely underrated. |
| 22:07:14 | <Arahael> | Rust ffi isn't too bad either, but I imagine that Haskell is insanely good. |
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| 22:08:23 | <dmj`> | Arahael: it is insanely good yea |
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| 22:15:50 | <safinaskar> | Arahael: wow, thanks for mention of inline-rust, i didn't think this is possible. give me a link to inline-cc (you mean c or c++?) |
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| 22:17:16 | <geekosaur> | @hackage inline-c |
| 22:17:16 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/inline-c |
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| 22:17:27 | <Arahael> | safinaskar: inline-c works with c++ and even objc, apparently. |
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| 22:25:35 | <dmj`> | nothing beats hsc2hs |
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| 23:13:31 | <tempate> | Hello. This is my very first time working with stack. Can anyone point me to some sort of guide to follow? I've been reading the reference manual and everything appears to be working, but it's generating a lot more stuff than I'd like. Ideally it'd just generate the minimum number of files for it to work. |
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| 23:22:40 | <jollygood2> | tempate, this may be helpful: https://docs.haskellstack.org/en/stable/GUIDE/#hello-world-example |
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| 23:24:26 | <duairc> | Is there any way at all to make a type family instance like `type instance Foo a = (forall r. (X -> r) -> r) -> a`? GHC complains about an illegal polymorphic type. I don't even mind factoring the `r` into the type family itself, so like, `type instance Foo a r = ((X -> r) -> r) -> a`, but `forall r. Foo a r` doesn't have the same meaning |
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| 23:28:43 | <tempate> | jollygood2: Thanks, but that's the one I was following |
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| 23:30:28 | <shachaf> | duairc: Hmm, I don't know why that's not allowed. |
| 23:30:32 | <shachaf> | I guess you can wrap it in a newtype. |
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| 23:42:16 | <tempate> | This is my very first haskell project: https://github.com/Tempate/8puzzle . It'd be great if I could get some comments on it, as I'm sure I'm doing many things in a non-haskellian way. |
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| 23:43:06 | <tempate> | I was also wondering if there was a more standarized method of having tests instead of just having a src/Tests file and calling it from Main |
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All times are in UTC on 2021-05-04.