Logs on 2021-05-08 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 00:06:36 | <jackdk> | okay, I'm not going crazy. old hspec must use a different internal generator. *shakes fist at stackage* - this is why good bounds matter |
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| 01:11:23 | ← | jakalx parts (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) () |
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| 01:14:19 | <slack1256> | https://pastebin.com/NTaVQAvR |
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| 01:15:04 | <slack1256> | How how you folks test/mock an effectful function that uses return type polymorphism? |
| 01:15:23 | <slack1256> | The caller is who specifies the return type. |
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| 01:17:38 | <slack1256> | whom* |
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| 02:27:04 | <ukari> | I try to run the example/resize in expipiplus1/vulkan and fails. But I am not sure is the example itself wrong or is there something wrong with vulkan driver in my computer. Could anyone test this? https://github.com/expipiplus1/vulkan/tree/master/examples/resize |
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| 02:29:44 | <nibabaa> | hello |
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| 05:20:57 | <dean> | hi |
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| 05:27:09 | <dean> | what is a godo way to search for programming jobs that use Haskell |
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| 05:32:48 | <DigitalKiwi> | probably following smdiehl on twitter |
| 05:33:01 | <DigitalKiwi> | (/s) |
| 05:35:28 | <DigitalKiwi> | Uniaika: is the matchmaker ready? how many MKR do i need to use it? |
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| 06:57:26 | <dyeplexer> | Cabal seems to run multiple builds in parallel while installing which uses a lot of resources on my system, making it unusable unless I restart. Is it possible to disable the parallel builds? |
| 06:57:44 | <dyeplexer> | *while installing packages |
| 06:58:45 | <sclv> | yes |
| 07:00:42 | <dyeplexer> | how? |
| 07:00:54 | <sclv> | https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-project.html?highlight=parallel#cfg-field-jobs |
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| 07:03:48 | <dyeplexer> | thanks. For some reason its not listed in cabal --help and searches don't really lead you to the docs either |
| 07:08:43 | <dyeplexer> | ah, its used in conjunction with install. That's why it wasn't visible |
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| 07:31:09 | <tomsmeding> | dyeplexer: also the -j argument to cabal install |
| 07:32:00 | <dyeplexer> | yes |
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| 08:15:45 | <Uniaika> | DigitalKiwi: MKR? |
| 08:17:33 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://www.coinbase.com/price/maker |
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| 08:18:48 | <DigitalKiwi> | oh no that doesn't even have an affiliate code attached ;( |
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| 08:22:05 | <DigitalKiwi> | i've got zero referrals ;( i'll never be a millionaire at this rate. ;( |
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| 08:24:16 | <Uniaika> | hahaha |
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| 09:17:09 | <gentauro> | c_wraith: so I guess it's fair to assume that "the complete body" is downloaded, but discarded "on client side" right? (httpNobody question) |
| 09:17:18 | <c_wraith> | yes |
| 09:17:23 | <gentauro> | c_wraith: nice |
| 09:17:37 | <gentauro> | cos I'm testing the performance of the server |
| 09:17:46 | <gentauro> | but I don't want to waste time on the client doing the parsing |
| 09:17:59 | <gentauro> | for me the important part it the HTTP status code (200) |
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| 14:44:33 | <Zemyla> | Is there any traversal that can use *> or <*? It doesn't seem like it, based on the laws. |
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| 14:49:18 | <[exa]> | Zemyla: what precisely does "use" stand for here? |
| 14:51:32 | <Zemyla> | traverse f xs = something1 f xs *> something2 f xs. |
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| 14:54:23 | <[exa]> | that actually has a name (some kind of fold I'd say) |
| 14:57:18 | <Zemyla> | I know, but there should be no way a legal traversal can disregard part of its structure. |
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| 15:21:25 | <catern> | I feel like "interpreter" is a much better name than "catamorphism" or "fold" or "banana" for the concept they refer to, is that sensible? or do I not really understand what "catamorphism" means if I think that? |
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| 15:41:04 | <monochrom> | I know of non-catamorphism interpreters. |
| 15:42:09 | <monochrom> | catamorphism is a definition not a concept. |
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| 16:26:16 | <zzz> | is using bang patterns equivalent to seq or pseq? |
| 16:26:48 | <geekosaur> | the Haskell Report specifies a desugaring to seq |
| 16:27:17 | <geekosaur> | wait, patterns, not the Report |
| 16:27:24 | <geekosaur> | but it still desugars to seq |
| 16:27:38 | <zzz> | understood |
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| 16:30:28 | <geekosaur> | pseq is specific to parallel processing and is a primitive for http://hackage.haskell.org/package/parallel-3.2.2.0/docs/Control-Parallel-Strategies.html |
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| 16:30:54 | <geekosaur> | it provides ordering guarantees seq doesn't |
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| 16:37:45 | <zzz> | got it |
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| 17:34:58 | <cmburnett> | Stupid question but what's GHC doing when you reassign a variable with "let"? Wouldn't that be mutable? |
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| 17:35:37 | <ski> | no |
| 17:35:45 | <ski> | there's no variable assignment |
| 17:36:26 | <ski> | `let' introduces a new binding, which will shadow any existing outer binding of an identifier with the same name |
| 17:36:56 | <maerwald> | maybe the question was about what happens in the generated assembly? |
| 17:37:11 | <ski> | also, note that `let' bindings are recursive. so, if you e.g. do `let x = x + 1', then this is a recursive definition (in this case, an infinite loop) |
| 17:37:25 | ski | looks at cmburnett |
| 17:37:41 | maerwald | looks at ski |
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| 17:38:00 | ski | looks everywhere, except at maerwald |
| 17:38:05 | <maerwald> | :D |
| 17:38:11 | <cmburnett> | *** looks in mirror, confused |
| 17:38:16 | <cmburnett> | A bit of both actually! Sorry, new to haskell but I'm more of a low level C guy |
| 17:38:53 | <maerwald> | hmm... I don't know what happens in the generated code, but that's not something you should generally be considered about |
| 17:39:05 | <cmburnett> | Is it essentially just a new variable with a different address, then subsequent references look at the new one? |
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| 17:39:34 | <maerwald> | I'd even go so far to say that won't help your understanding of the language |
| 17:39:35 | <monochrom> | new variable. shadowing name-wise. |
| 17:39:47 | <ski> | yes .. although i don't think it's that useful to think of it in terms of "address" (of an object) at all. think in terms of values, not (mutable) objects |
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| 17:39:56 | <Rembane> | Values and names. |
| 17:40:09 | <ski> | when the scope of the `let' ends, the outer variable will be visible again |
| 17:40:13 | <maerwald> | The way GHC deals with this case my arbitrarily change |
| 17:40:33 | <maerwald> | important is only the language semantics |
| 17:40:48 | <ski> | > let x = 2 in (let x = 3 in x*x) + x -- `x' is `3' in `x*x', but in the `+ x' part at the end, `x' refers to the outer variable, which is `2' |
| 17:40:50 | <lambdabot> | 11 |
| 17:41:12 | <cmburnett> | ah alright that makes sense, thanks! |
| 17:41:19 | <superstar64> | cmburnett forget what an address is, this is a high level language |
| 17:41:36 | <ski> | C also has block scoping with local identifiers shadowing non-local ones |
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| 17:42:00 | <maerwald> | superstar64: heh |
| 17:42:38 | <superstar64> | even in c, your variables might not have address after optimization |
| 17:42:41 | <monochrom> | C is neither low-level nor high-level. C is an attic embarrassment. https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3212479 |
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| 17:43:16 | <monochrom> | C was cool in its historical context, but that context doesn't exist any more. |
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| 17:43:46 | <maerwald> | don't be a heretic |
| 17:43:47 | <ski> | { int x = 2,y,z; { int x = 2; y = x*x; } z = y + x; } /* this is somewhat similar, in C, to the above Haskell example. `z' will end up having value `11' */ |
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| 17:43:57 | <ski> | cmburnett ^ |
| 17:44:08 | <geekosaur> | C was cool when the alternative was MS-BASIC |
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| 17:44:36 | <Rembane> | I dunno about that, I like C as a high level assembler dialect. |
| 17:44:40 | <maerwald> | C is what molds the programmers weak will into a strong, resilient, pain-resistent mind |
| 17:44:48 | <cmburnett> | ... i mean, isn't ghc C based? |
| 17:45:08 | <monochrom> | No. |
| 17:45:19 | <superstar64> | ghc is written in haskell |
| 17:45:30 | <monochrom> | Precisely because C doesn't even do justice to "high-level assembler". |
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| 17:45:33 | <cmburnett> | right but I mean it outputs C I thought |
| 17:45:33 | <maerwald> | we still have a legacy C backend though I think |
| 17:45:37 | <maerwald> | no |
| 17:45:41 | <geekosaur> | parts of the runtime are written in cmm, which is that higher level assembler (and not C0 |
| 17:45:52 | <geekosaur> | it used to output C years ago |
| 17:45:59 | <maerwald> | it's legacy |
| 17:46:04 | <ski> | it was a long time since compilation via C was the default |
| 17:46:28 | <geekosaur> | and that C had to be compiled to asm and then a script run over it to make it suitable for use |
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| 17:46:32 | <monochrom> | And when GHC did compile to C, it was not purely that, it had to run a Perl script to rewrite the asm. |
| 17:46:34 | <maerwald> | although there are good reasons to keep C backend (formal verification, for instance) |
| 17:46:36 | <monochrom> | Precisely because C doesn't even do justice to "high-level assembler". |
| 17:46:40 | <ski> | @quote mangler |
| 17:46:41 | <lambdabot> | Pseudonym says: All hail the Evil Mangler! |
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| 17:47:29 | <cmburnett> | huh, the more you know |
| 17:47:55 | <monochrom> | If it doesn't expose the carry flag it is not high-level assembly. |
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| 17:48:11 | <cmburnett> | it uses the llvm-ir now then? |
| 17:48:13 | <monochrom> | If it doesn't let you manipulate the stack it is not high-level assembly. |
| 17:48:13 | <superstar64> | monochrom, well what other options are there for portable assembly? none of them are as stable and wide spread as c |
| 17:48:36 | <cmburnett> | wait nevermind, cmm right |
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| 17:49:12 | <geekosaur> | llvm-ir is one of the possible cmm targets |
| 17:49:17 | <ski> | cmburnett : anyway, unless you're specifically concerned about implementation details (note that your `let' question didn't seem to be about this, but about semantics), you probably should ask about Haskell, not GHC |
| 17:49:42 | <Rembane> | monochrom: Now we're getting into the gray areas. You have to use inline assembly to do all the fun stuff in C, but it's very easy to do so as long as there's only one target platform. |
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| 17:51:08 | <cmburnett> | i was actually concerned mostly with implementation, i've been working on a language/compiler and was curious how it was generally handled |
| 17:51:17 | <monochrom> | Rembane, I would be OK with s/high-level assembly/low-level algol/ |
| 17:51:47 | <monochrom> | C is algol but exposes address arithmetic and struct memory layout |
| 17:51:48 | <superstar64> | cmburnett https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/commentary/compiler/hsc-main |
| 17:51:58 | <monochrom> | That's still not high-level assembly. |
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| 17:53:12 | <cmburnett> | superstar64: thanks that's super helpful for what i'm trying to do! |
| 17:53:32 | <superstar64> | i'm also making my own programming language |
| 17:54:40 | <monochrom> | But Turbo Pascal exposes struct memory layout too. Even has a pseudo-library-function that lets you talk about 8086 registers. It is possible to write DOS TSRs and device drivers in Turbo Pascal? |
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| 17:55:04 | <monochrom> | Does that suddenly make Turbo Pascal high-level assembly? |
| 17:55:15 | <monochrom> | No. It is only low-level Pascal. |
| 17:55:16 | <Rembane> | With a more algolly syntax than C. :) |
| 17:55:21 | <ski> | cmburnett : it might be useful to first get the basics of the (high-level) semantics under your belt |
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| 17:58:20 | <superstar64> | cmburnett, if you want, we can talk about my programming language or just programming language design in general on #haskell-offtopic or #proglangdesign |
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| 17:58:58 | <cmburnett> | ski: yeah I intend to pick up a textbook and learn more on the intricacies of it and all that sometime soon |
| 17:59:34 | <cmburnett> | yeah I'll pop on over to offtopic, don't want to spam these folks with it |
| 17:59:42 | <superstar64> | haskell is really nice to write a compiler in, pattern matching and hindely milner + typeclasses goes really far |
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| 19:44:10 | <arkho> | Is it possible to create an "alias" for the 'do' keyword? |
| 19:45:12 | <arkho> | Suppose I wanted to do something silly like make it into a unary operator. |
| 19:45:16 | <[exa]> | arkho: that might be hard, but you can 1] use CPP to just #define it, 2] try some TemplateHaskell trickery, 3] check out how they did it with `mdo` |
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| 19:49:57 | <monochrom> | mdo is heavily built into the compiler. |
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| 19:50:45 | <C4l4dbolg> | yellow |
| 19:51:16 | <arkho> | [exa]: Thanks! |
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| 19:52:50 | <[exa]> | arkho: certainly not saying that any of that would be a solution tho. Perhaps let us know what's the "higher level" problem |
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| 20:22:13 | <seven_three> | is it possible with quickcheck to print out a string so the result of running the test is like: `+++ OK, passed 100 tests. - someFunction` |
| 20:23:29 | <seven_three> | up to this point I have been doing this from outside of the property_function being tested |
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| 21:18:38 | <ollie> | Hi, is anyone able to give me a hand with a quick error? |
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| 21:20:17 | <refusenick> | I asked a question in #haskell-language-server |
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| 21:30:40 | <juri_> | ollie: post a pastebin to it? |
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| 21:30:51 | <ollie> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/eSOfRq6A |
| 21:31:42 | <ollie> | the exception at the top, is for line 33 |
| 21:31:56 | <ollie> | try _ [] = [], that im missing a pattern match basically |
| 21:34:05 | <ski> | you're missing a case for when `comp xss f' is `False' |
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| 21:39:04 | <ollie> | ski i've added that in but it's not the problem -> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/7wgO1e15 is the exact error |
| 21:39:57 | <ollie> | xss is constant and f is from the generator, so i dont see what case is getting hit that isnt just try _ [] = [] |
| 21:40:04 | <ski> | exactly what did you add in ? |
| 21:40:13 | <ollie> | comp _ [] = False |
| 21:40:31 | <ski> | nothing added to `try' ? |
| 21:40:52 | <ollie> | nope |
| 21:41:07 | <ski> | then you're still missing a case in `try' |
| 21:41:12 | <ollie> | Ohh, sorry I see |
| 21:41:17 | <ollie> | what you meant. |
| 21:41:53 | <ski> | (sorry, i was perhaps unclear as to the location a case was missing) |
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| 23:07:09 | <olle> | Is there a Haskell answer to the expression problem? Isolating change when adding new data vs adding new behaviour? |
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| 23:08:09 | <olle> | Google helps |
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| 23:13:07 | <Rembane> | olle: Kinda, see the paper Data types a la carte. |
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| 23:14:52 | <seven_three> | is it possible to write a quickcheck `Property`, that prints out a extra message on success/failure? It seems that hspec has a `describe` function to do this. I would like my output from a call of `quickCheck` to print `+++ OK, passed 100 tests -- prop_reverse` |
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| 23:17:47 | <olle> | Rembane: Found some slides |
| 23:17:48 | <olle> | https://userpages.uni-koblenz.de/~laemmel/TheEagle/resources/pdf/xproblem1.pdf |
| 23:20:57 | <olle> | Wow, easy to both add new data and new behaviour in a separate module? Impressive. |
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| 23:22:11 | <Rembane> | olle: Yeah, I think it's really cool! :) |
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| 23:24:13 | <olle> | This was only Haskell 98, it seems |
| 23:24:18 | <olle> | In the paper |
| 23:24:21 | <olle> | sorry, slides |
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| 23:28:31 | <Rembane> | Then it should absolutely work in later versions of Haskell. |
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| 23:30:45 | <olle> | Using type-classes instead of pattern match |
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| 23:42:27 | <monochrom> | Except that "data (Exp l, Exp r) => ..." is Haskell 98 but not Haskell 2010 :) |
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