Logs on 2021-05-12 (freenode/#haskell)
| 00:00:10 | <monochrom> | Along that line, today I met with my TAs. On the subject of commenting or even giving marks on code quality, a TA suggested hlint. |
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| 00:00:47 | <Cale> | If hlint gives no suggestions, deduct 1 mark |
| 00:01:13 | <monochrom> | "Ah but an hlint complaint like 'your parentheses are redundant' is not just cause for deducting marks. Making an XY problem is. hlint picks on all the unimportant things and misses on all the important things." |
| 00:01:24 | <monochrom> | haha Cale that's a good scheme too |
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| 00:03:21 | <monochrom> | Generally at today's technological level, these algorithmic suggests are all superficial and run the risk of causing moar XY problems. |
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| 00:09:17 | <m_shiraeeshi> | what does that long sequence of symbols in recommended action mean? |
| 00:09:37 | <m_shiraeeshi> | * Recommended action: try adding the following to your extra-deps in /home/cajun/HaskellProjects/parconc-examples-0.4.8/stack.yaml |
| 00:10:04 | <geekosaur> | it's giving a commit hash for an exact version, looks like |
| 00:10:22 | <Cajun> | yes its the hash for the version. allow-newer is allowing it to build but ill see if it runs |
| 00:10:28 | <geekosaur> | which is a good example of why not to quite trust automatic suggestions; that's usually going overboard |
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| 00:11:19 | <monochrom> | Blockchains and cryptography solve all social problems such as distribution of wealth and reproducible unbuildability. >:) |
| 00:11:58 | <Cajun> | something something cardano |
| 00:12:04 | <Cajun> | x3 |
| 00:12:26 | <monochrom> | I still think the resolver is too old to start with. 2018 January 1st?! |
| 00:12:52 | <monochrom> | I mean unless you are also building a version of parconc from that period. |
| 00:13:09 | <monochrom> | Period instruments for only period music. |
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| 00:13:29 | <Cajun> | the book is from 2013 but the package is kept up to date. that package is the one chosen automatically by `stack init` |
| 00:14:02 | <monochrom> | OK so the parconc version is of year 2020 or even 2021 |
| 00:14:45 | <monochrom> | I have trouble believing that it's compatible with old GHC and old Cabal library that came with old GHC. |
| 00:15:04 | <Cajun> | should i change to some newer LTS resolver? specifically the one for my GHC 8.8.4? |
| 00:15:05 | <monochrom> | In terms of GHC versions and Cabal versions, a 2-year gap is too big. |
| 00:15:21 | <monochrom> | Yeah I think so, I think you should try newer resolvers. |
| 00:15:47 | <monochrom> | Then again I don't use stack so I don't know how much you should trust or not trust stack init. |
| 00:16:26 | <Cajun> | it complained quite a bit about versions and stuff so only 1 thing passed. no clue |
| 00:16:28 | <monochrom> | Also I don't know whether an old stack version is the cause of stack-init defaulting to an old resolver. |
| 00:16:29 | <geekosaur> | stack init will be using the global stack config, which unless it's been manually maintained will date back to when stack was first installed |
| 00:16:40 | <monochrom> | Oh heh |
| 00:16:50 | <geekosaur> | regardless of how old the current version of stack is, iirc |
| 00:17:03 | <monochrom> | Gosh this is a mess. |
| 00:17:04 | <geekosaur> | currently installed that is |
| 00:17:33 | <monochrom> | Now this detail would be one I would ask "why should it be invented?" |
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| 00:18:04 | <Cajun> | so how would i fix that? the build failed building happy 1.19.9 but i have 1.19.12. should i just stop and use cabal? ive heard that cabal can be a pain with dependency hell but have most of those issues been fixed? |
| 00:18:26 | <geekosaur> | long since |
| 00:18:33 | <geekosaur> | cabal v1 had those kinds of issues |
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| 00:21:08 | <Cajun> | alright thank you, cabal seems so much less painful to use monochrom++ geekosaur++ |
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| 01:06:50 | <shanemikel> | somthing something cardano is the reason I'm refreshing my haskell skillz. want to see what they're doing with smart contracts |
| 01:07:35 | <shanemikel> | not to solve problems, but to create new ones ;) |
| 01:08:04 | <Cale> | Taking cryptocurrency down from the inside? |
| 01:09:30 | <shanemikel> | we're all on the inside now [laughs maniacally] |
| 01:09:37 | <Cale> | I just want to be done with it all already. |
| 01:10:22 | <shanemikel> | but we're not even on the moon yet :( |
| 01:10:48 | <Axman6> | _if_ cryptocurrency is to be something actually useful, I'd definitely rather see it happen with Cardano than most alternatives. PoW is horrible, and IOHK seem to be doing a lot of good work, despite the fact it's cryptocurrency related |
| 01:11:08 | <Cale> | Distributed databases are not a good fit for the real world. If you know who manages the connection between your database and the real world, you know where your database can be centralised. If you don't know, then you're just playing a video game with bad graphics despite all the graphics cards. |
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| 01:15:48 | <shanemikel> | that's one way to put it |
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| 01:16:12 | <Axman6> | I'm not sure I agree that they aren't a good fit for the real world. I'm somewhat biased, but by no means a crypto evangelist, or smart contract nut, but after working with DAML, and seeing technologies likc Canton, I can see how there is huge scops for building systems which share only the data they need so, and can have other write applications against others' shared data agaiunst it, without each party needing to know about thing. |
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| 01:17:36 | <Cale> | Doesn't that start to look like a bunch of isolated private databases that have restricted public APIs though? |
| 01:18:01 | <Axman6> | That one, fairly difficult to get right, way to do things, yes |
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| 01:20:24 | <Axman6> | the last project I worked on at one of my previous jobs was to build a system for tracing movements through supply chains - something like DAML with Canton would have made that project nearly trivial to implement, and for each party to build their own apps on, and to allow disclosure to the relevant authorities in a fairly trivial way |
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| 01:23:04 | <Axman6> | what a redundant sentense, I shouldn't do work and write on IRC at the same time |
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| 01:24:57 | <Cale> | I can definitely see the value in making it easier to write what are more or less centralised databases with well-structured APIs that are easy to use and interconnect. I just don't see what adding a peer-to-peer distributed network into the mix (on top of TCP/IP) really does to help anything. |
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| 01:26:22 | <Cale> | As well as having the default policy for replication be that everyone replicates everything all the time. |
| 01:26:26 | <Axman6> | The only pieces that need to be distributed are the shared pieces of information, which should be consistently viewed by all involved parties, and that's what a system like that gives you. Who wons the data that a shipment is being sent from A to bB? Who owns the fact that B has received it? |
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| 01:27:08 | <Axman6> | that's not the default policy in the systems I'm talking about. This is a long way from the one true blockchain model of most current cryptocurrencies |
| 01:27:44 | <Axman6> | ehat is shared is what is visible to those parties, nothing else needs to be |
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| 01:28:51 | <Axman6> | Like, don't get me wrong, I had exactly the same beliefs before working with DAML, I though most of the ideas in crypto currencies were terrible, and many of them made scaling nearly impossible. but that model doesn't have to be _the_ model |
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| 01:29:11 | <Cale> | In my mind, whatever real-world organisation is responsible for policing the relationship between the parties A and B ought to own that data. Someone has to be tasked with ensuring the contents of the database are correct, after all. |
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| 01:29:55 | <Cale> | If that's just party B because we're lazy, and that situation is inadequate, no blockchain is going to really solve that problem. |
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| 01:38:06 | <Axman6> | What if it's the thirs party, say the government, which publishes the contracts which represent the relationship between those parties, and those contracts enforce visibility of that organisation when those actions are undertaken? |
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| 01:38:55 | <Cale> | Yeah, that's basically what we've got. People sign contracts, governments oversee the contracts. Ultimately, a judge can say whether the contract was valid or not. |
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| 01:39:40 | <Axman6> | like, this is tuff that a coupld of dozen lines of code in DAML, and I'm sure other languages too (though DAMLs model of visivility is quite unique as far as I can tell) |
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| 01:40:49 | <Cale> | I'd probably support the government keeping some sort of database of official contracts, but I do find the automated reasoning about them to be troubling. I see it as a good thing that a judge is allowed to say "no, that's actually slavery, you're not allowed to form that contract" and render it void, despite the potential for abuse. |
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| 01:41:40 | <Cale> | When it's a program running uncontrollably on a global network of everyone's computers, that might not be possible. |
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| 01:42:40 | <Axman6> | why would it be uncontrolable? |
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| 01:43:43 | <Cale> | Well, it depends on how you set up the network, but usually these networks are designed to be decentralised, and don't have entities with authority to just change or delete things at will. |
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| 01:44:37 | <Cale> | I think the people who enforce that the contents of the database agree with the real-world situation and are legal and valid should have such authority over the contents of the database, it is a tool primarily for their sake. |
| 01:45:27 | <Cale> | After all, they could always choose to act as though the contents of the database are different from what the computers say. |
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| 01:46:21 | <Cale> | But if you have a bunch of smart contracts running out of control that are in disagreement with what is actually going to be enforced, that'll be a mess quickly. |
| 01:46:38 | <Axman6> | of course, legislation is what provides the tool for enforcing the connection between the real world and documents about it. this has been the same for millenia |
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| 01:48:57 | <Cale> | Now, it might be a good idea to have some sort of standardised APIs for governments to be able to manage digital records of financial contracts that they are going to legally enforce. I just again see making that database distributed as creating more technical difficulties than it solves. |
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| 01:50:06 | <Cale> | If you're the type to say "well, I don't trust the government", that's just too bad, because they have the guns, so nobody was asking. |
| 01:51:02 | <m_shiraeeshi> | I don't know nothing about cryptocurrencies, let me ask |
| 01:51:26 | <m_shiraeeshi> | Cale: "As well as having the default policy for replication be that everyone replicates everything all the time." |
| 01:51:32 | <m_shiraeeshi> | what do you mean? |
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| 01:51:57 | <Cale> | m_shiraeeshi: Generally those who are participating in blockchains store a copy of the entire chain of blocks on their machine |
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| 01:52:56 | <Axman6> | but that's absolutely not necessary |
| 01:53:08 | <Cale> | Yeah, it's just uncommon to avoid it. |
| 01:53:29 | <m_shiraeeshi> | so, when performing a transaction, let's say selling something, you send a message "I sold this thing", and then what happens? |
| 01:53:37 | <Axman6> | well, Cardano is attempting to, as is Canton |
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| 01:53:49 | <m_shiraeeshi> | everybody should acknowledge your transaction? or majority? |
| 01:53:51 | <shanemikel> | The main issue I see with blockchains is that anyone can stick any data in it and it's basically impossible to redact without a fork (think of certain rather unsavory kinds of explicit images). |
| 01:54:33 | <Cale> | m_shiraeeshi: Well, in proof of work systems, some miner may choose to pick up your transaction and include it in the next block that they construct, when they solve the puzzle. |
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| 01:55:23 | <Cale> | m_shiraeeshi: and then that new block gets shared with all the nodes, and so long as it's part of the longest/largest-amount-of-work chain, your transaction happened. |
| 01:55:24 | <m_shiraeeshi> | so what miners do is they replicate and acknowledge transactions? |
| 01:55:30 | <Cale> | yeah |
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| 01:56:20 | <Axman6> | shanemikel: again, that's not a necessary feature of blockchains, that is a feature of some current blockchains. the DAML view is that only whose parties who are _allowed_ to see any data can, not everyone - they may see that data exists, but not what it is |
| 01:56:35 | <shanemikel> | That's a cool feature if you want to do something like stick an encrypted signed revision of your research paper in the chain before collaborating with some unscrupulous but brilliant guy (just in case he tries to claim credit). Not so cool if somebody sticks your social security # or deed to your house in it. |
| 01:56:35 | <m_shiraeeshi> | Cale: "and so long as it's part of the longest/largest-amount-of-work chain" |
| 01:56:40 | <Cale> | Axman6: That's definitely an improvement, to be sure |
| 01:56:52 | <m_shiraeeshi> | so there's possibility of conflicts and divergencies? |
| 01:56:58 | <Cale> | m_shiraeeshi: yep |
| 01:57:20 | <m_shiraeeshi> | it reminds me of cap-theorem |
| 01:57:26 | <shanemikel> | permanent divergence is called a "fork" |
| 01:57:27 | <Axman6> | in DAML you have to be explicit about who can see any contract |
| 01:57:54 | <Cale> | m_shiraeeshi: Well-behaved miners tend to discard work that they had done to mine a block once they see that a new one got published. |
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| 01:58:21 | <m_shiraeeshi> | why though? you could make it append-only |
| 01:58:37 | <Cale> | But it's not strictly necessary -- if the block they just mined was harder to mine, perhaps they could publish just after and have theirs accepted instead. |
| 01:58:39 | <m_shiraeeshi> | so that newer data overwrite older |
| 01:58:50 | <m_shiraeeshi> | but that could lead to problems I guess |
| 01:58:58 | <shanemikel> | m_shiraeeshi who is the authority on time or what is the "newest" block? |
| 01:58:58 | <Cale> | Because it's a wacky distributed database where everyone is considered an adversary |
| 01:59:16 | <shanemikel> | that's the main issue with distributed systems is no oracle (time is pretty important to agree on) |
| 01:59:45 | <Cale> | and so you (a) do far more work than any reasonable person would expect, and (b) have to deal with disagreements |
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| 02:00:31 | <shanemikel> | m_shiraeeshi what do you wait until every miner in the world has accepted a block before continuing the next TX? How do you know they were all online? |
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| 02:01:17 | <Cale> | and there's also all kinds of fun problems at the peer-to-peer layer of how new connections to the network get handled and messages are routed around the network. Bitcoin is pretty stable since most of its routing is ad-hoc, but I have a sneaking suspicion that most networks are more exploitable at the P2P layer than we've yet had to contend with. |
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| 02:01:47 | <shanemikel> | Axman6 I bet there are all kinds of hidden goodies on the BTC chain |
| 02:01:50 | <m_shiraeeshi> | what is the criterion for the transaction being considered committed then? like a minimal number of acknowledgements or something |
| 02:02:05 | <shanemikel> | It is all probabilistic based on number of confirmations |
| 02:02:10 | <Cale> | m_shiraeeshi: Sometimes people will wait for a number of blocks to be piled atop it, yeah |
| 02:02:22 | <shanemikel> | you never know that a block was accepted. only pretty sure after some number of them |
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| 02:03:35 | <Axman6> | goodies and very much not goodies |
| 02:03:35 | <Cale> | It becomes harder and harder to change things farther into the past, because you have to do the work to form all the blocks on top of whatever it was you wanted changed. |
| 02:04:18 | <Cale> | (well, blocks representing an equivalent amount of work) |
| 02:04:25 | <shanemikel> | It's all based on game theory AFAIK... miners are incentivized to produce the next block and make $$ they don't want to do extra work for the same reward |
| 02:04:26 | <m_shiraeeshi> | in a way it resembles how git works, right? |
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| 02:04:37 | <m_shiraeeshi> | git hashes things |
| 02:04:37 | <shanemikel> | yeah |
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| 02:04:59 | <shanemikel> | git is based on a sort-of merkle dag right? |
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| 02:06:50 | <Cale> | But yeah, all of this kind of thing is unbelievably computationally expensive and power hungry. There are ways to improve the situation a bit vs. proof-of-work, but they're never really going to come close to postgres performance-wise. |
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| 02:08:31 | <Cale> | There's stuff like Tezos' proof-of-stake, where people are granted power over the network in accordance with how much monopoly money they have (which was initially determined by how much real world money they gave the Tezos devs) |
| 02:09:45 | <m_shiraeeshi> | what about ethereum? it runs arbitrary computations in blockchain somehow? |
| 02:09:49 | <Cale> | (The idea being that if you want your monopoly money to continue being regarded as valuable, you had better act in good faith) |
| 02:10:03 | <shanemikel> | Theory on the street is that PoW is less vulnerable to money-printing power grab schemes.. |
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| 02:11:07 | <Cale> | Ethereum started out proof-of-work, and I think there's a plan in the works to change it over to proof-of-stake. |
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| 02:12:01 | <monochrom> | I want to proof my cake and eat it too. |
| 02:12:12 | <m_shiraeeshi> | some crypto jargon I see here |
| 02:12:17 | <shanemikel> | It seems like a conflict of interest could emerge between network operators and stakeholders. How do they incentivize network operation? An indirect incentive for stakeholders to maintain network integrety? |
| 02:12:20 | <Axman6> | bake it with ASICs |
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| 02:12:27 | <Cale> | Proof of stake has the rather enormous advantage of not wasting everyone's graphics cards (and potentially custom hardware) on solving otherwise-meaningless cryptographic puzzles. |
| 02:13:27 | <Cale> | Still, you have every node on the network duplicating and checking all the computation that happens on it |
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| 02:14:08 | <Cale> | So it's still pretty expensive and wasteful power-wise to do everything, relative to traditional computer programs. |
| 02:14:18 | <shanemikel> | Also, if BTC was proof of stake US gov would already be one of the top 1% network controllers (AFAIK because of silk road seizure) |
| 02:14:29 | <Cale> | Nice |
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| 02:15:47 | <Cale> | So we just need to convince the BTC folks to go proof of stake, and then convince the US government to shut it down, and then we can rest for a bit before figuring out how to EOL the rest of cryptocurrency. |
| 02:15:58 | <shanemikel> | LOL |
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| 02:16:22 | <shanemikel> | *sorry EOL |
| 02:16:34 | <Cale> | (end of life) |
| 02:16:58 | <shanemikel> | ahaha |
| 02:17:31 | <Cale> | I just want it to be over |
| 02:17:34 | <Cale> | haha |
| 02:17:56 | <nshepperd> | proof of work blockchain solves a very specific problem, which is byzantine consensus in the absence of God. if you're an organisation providing a service your don't need it since you have a god |
| 02:19:42 | <shanemikel> | yeah most interesting to me is geopolitics of it. India trying to shut it down, china w/ huge mining power. Texas trying to become mining hotspot. at least it will be interesting. |
| 02:20:40 | <m_shiraeeshi> | I heard that at some point all the coins are going to be mined |
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| 02:20:52 | <shanemikel> | especially the timing of it during global power competition and the breakdown of postwar consensus |
| 02:21:39 | <m_shiraeeshi> | what limits coins from being mined indefinitely? |
| 02:22:14 | <shanemikel> | I think the rewards for new blocks diminish over time on BTC ad infinitum? |
| 02:23:32 | <m_shiraeeshi> | also I got the impression that it's becoming increasingly harder to mine coins |
| 02:23:49 | <shanemikel> | Which will be the case as long as the major BTC fork is controlled by devs, clients & miners who want to adhere to Satoshi's original vision? |
| 02:24:03 | <m_shiraeeshi> | ok, so what happens after that? people start again from the clean slate? |
| 02:24:13 | <m_shiraeeshi> | erase all the history? |
| 02:24:15 | <shanemikel> | The dev communities are another interesting locus of control. |
| 02:24:36 | <shanemikel> | No, you can fork the chain and change the protocol |
| 02:26:46 | <m_shiraeeshi> | so is there some kind of a garbage collection in blockchain? |
| 02:26:49 | <shanemikel> | Get super active on GitHub, join crypto community, talk some Capos (power devs) into adopting your new community guidelines, sneak some malevolent stuff in the backdoor, promote people who are secretly allied with you to hostile takeover of the crypto, profit. |
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| 02:27:08 | <shanemikel> | (also need to handle miners somehow) |
| 02:27:29 | <m_shiraeeshi> | maybe my mental model is wrong, and that's why I'm asking about gc |
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| 02:28:35 | <shanemikel> | Only discarded blocks.. everything else stays in the chain. |
| 02:29:05 | <shanemikel> | you discard blocks when you decide they are not getting accepted.. otherwise keep on chugging |
| 02:29:28 | <m_shiraeeshi> | I heard that there was a dev in bitcoin who campaigned against popularizing bitcoin, and convinced a lot of people |
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| 02:29:37 | <m_shiraeeshi> | it was like 5 years ago |
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| 02:31:33 | <m_shiraeeshi> | and also about some issues leading to increased network traffic |
| 02:32:28 | <shanemikel> | Before the crash in 2017 the BTC network was too slow to process TXs (because of the boom & hype, overloaded). That was a major reason for the crash in my mind. |
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| 02:35:19 | <shanemikel> | The latest hype cycle it seems has averted this problem (though I don't know if it is advances in the network/protocol or operation of the exchanges) |
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| 02:36:31 | <shanemikel> | Coinbase is much bigger and has capital to loan, speculate on TX outcomes, probably controls a huge volume of BTC to make TX fluid off-chain |
| 02:38:05 | <shanemikel> | But on the blockchain there is no Fed to halt trading or loan/print to alleviate a liquidity trap |
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| 02:39:54 | <shanemikel> | That was around the time when people were still debating whether BTC was a store of value or a medium of liquidity.. seems that argument is over and bulls have settled on store of value |
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| 02:51:44 | <shanemikel> | This looks interesting https://well-typed.com/blog/2021/03/fundamental-blockchain/ |
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| 06:16:35 | <Axman6> | Hello |
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| 06:34:06 | <juri_> | hio! |
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| 07:47:18 | <maerwald> | how do you make pkg-config work on windows? I installed haskell-dev via chocolatey and when executing cabal, it doesn't know where pkg-config (the tool) is |
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| 07:51:16 | <[exa]> | export a PKG_CONFIG_PATH? |
| 07:51:22 | <[exa]> | (can one export environment on windows?) |
| 07:51:39 | <maerwald> | excellent questions |
| 07:51:45 | <maerwald> | also, why would I need to do that? |
| 07:51:56 | <maerwald> | chocolatey is supposed to do those things for me |
| 07:52:24 | <maerwald> | PKG_CONFIG_PATH is about the .pc files, not the tool |
| 07:52:29 | <maerwald> | afair |
| 07:52:37 | <maerwald> | it can't find the tool |
| 07:52:53 | <[exa]> | yeah that might be true...then just PKG_CONFIG ? |
| 07:53:51 | <lortabac> | is there a way to hide some identifiers when exporting a module? |
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| 07:57:07 | <[exa]> | lortabac: you mean 'as opposed to listing the identifiers you want exported' ? |
| 07:57:56 | <tomsmeding> | if so, then no :) |
| 07:58:32 | <tomsmeding> | hack would be to make your module a separate, .Internal module, and in the externally-facing module to import your .Internal module hiding some symbols (imports _can_ hide), and then re-export that whole module |
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| 08:02:05 | <lortabac> | apparently you can hide them when importing the module and re-export the whole module |
| 08:02:14 | <lortabac> | it seems to work |
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| 08:03:19 | <tomsmeding> | indeed |
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| 08:21:18 | <merijn> | ain issue with that is that haddocks will be shit |
| 08:21:34 | <merijn> | Better off explicitly listing identifiers |
| 08:21:59 | <lortabac> | merijn: good point |
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| 09:20:00 | <kuribas> | why is "try" in a parser considered evil? |
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| 09:21:17 | <maerwald> | excessive backtracking? |
| 09:21:53 | <maerwald> | can't think of another reason |
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| 09:23:05 | <kuribas> | it was about laws not being respected or something... |
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| 09:25:45 | <merijn> | kuribas: Why said it's evil? |
| 09:26:04 | <kuribas> | I remember reading it in an article, I don't have the article though... |
| 09:31:26 | <maerwald> | kuribas: http://blog.ezyang.com/2014/05/parsec-try-a-or-b-considered-harmful/ |
| 09:31:29 | <maerwald> | ? |
| 09:31:46 | <kuribas> | maerwald: yeah |
| 09:31:47 | <maerwald> | but that's not about laws either |
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| 09:33:45 | <kuribas> | maerwald: I read that somewhere else then |
| 09:34:00 | <maerwald> | go find it :p |
| 09:35:01 | <nshepperd2> | https://rpeszek.github.io/posts/2021-02-13-alternative.html this one? |
| 09:35:22 | <kuribas> | yeah, that one also. |
| 09:35:28 | <kuribas> | Although I don't agree with that article. |
| 09:37:08 | <nshepperd2> | having try, instead of always backtracking, means things violate the '(f >> mzero) = mzero' law of monadplus |
| 09:37:45 | <nshepperd2> | but i think that law is just wrong |
| 09:37:47 | <kuribas> | you mean (f >> mzero) == f ? |
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| 09:38:19 | <kuribas> | that's a weird law... |
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| 09:39:01 | <nshepperd2> | very weird |
| 09:39:07 | <nshepperd2> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.6.0.1/docs/Control-Monad.html#t:MonadPlus |
| 09:39:37 | <nshepperd2> | a bunch of the instances in base violate it too, so i think it's just a mistake |
| 09:40:34 | <kuribas> | it only makes sense when f doesn't do any side-effect |
| 09:42:42 | <maerwald> | why? |
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| 09:43:09 | <kuribas> | maerwald: because mzero didn't do any side-effect, and f did. |
| 09:43:09 | <nshepperd2> | launchMissiles >> mzero |
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| 09:43:33 | <maerwald> | ah, you mean `v >> mzero = mzero` |
| 09:43:57 | <nshepperd2> | yes, that one |
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| 09:44:48 | <maerwald> | so IO already violates it? |
| 09:46:45 | <maerwald> | hmm, the question is also... are the laws defined for evaluation only? |
| 09:46:52 | <Taneb> | Does IO have a MonadPlus instance? |
| 09:47:21 | <maerwald> | yes |
| 09:47:22 | <merijn> | It does, I think |
| 09:47:42 | <maerwald> | but, I guess... if you ignore program execution semantics, the laws kinda hold |
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| 09:48:23 | <merijn> | the law is less general than it's written out |
| 09:48:44 | <merijn> | it basically just means "all aborts are the same" |
| 09:49:00 | <merijn> | It doesn't mean "abort retroactively invalidates things that happened" |
| 09:49:11 | <nshepperd2> | in other words it's wrong |
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| 09:49:22 | <merijn> | Define wrong |
| 09:49:37 | <maerwald> | merijn: well, mzero has no parameters, so it is always the same |
| 09:49:49 | <merijn> | "it's using a different equality than the one you're thinking off" |
| 09:50:07 | <merijn> | Because people are sloppy and use tons of different equalities implicitly |
| 09:50:30 | <nshepperd2> | it's useless if you can't apply it because it uses some mysterious undefined equality |
| 09:51:32 | <merijn> | Those aren't even listed as laws, though |
| 09:51:52 | <maerwald> | "satisfy the equations" |
| 09:51:57 | <Taneb> | "It should also satisfy the equations" makes it sound like they're intended as laws to me |
| 09:52:00 | <merijn> | It's just saying MonadPlus shouldn't allow >> and >>= to recover |
| 09:52:11 | <nshepperd2> | it's not saying that |
| 09:52:14 | <maerwald> | Uniaika: I think we have a documentation task here |
| 09:52:30 | <nshepperd2> | there's a bug filed https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/14960 |
| 09:52:46 | <Taneb> | The Monad laws are described with the same language |
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| 09:53:19 | <nshepperd2> | you can gesture toward 'v >> mzero is false-ish' or 'can't recover' but parametricity of mzero already tells you that |
| 09:53:28 | <maerwald> | right |
| 09:53:53 | <merijn> | It doesn't, though |
| 09:55:00 | <Uniaika> | hello. |
| 09:55:20 | <maerwald> | merijn: be a little more constructive :P ...what should we do? |
| 09:55:31 | <Uniaika> | that's easy |
| 09:55:36 | <Uniaika> | you open a ticket |
| 09:55:38 | <Uniaika> | you assign it to me |
| 09:55:52 | <Uniaika> | ideally with how things should be documented but I can do without |
| 09:56:02 | <Uniaika> | and you let the Documentation Task Force do its magic |
| 09:56:08 | <Uniaika> | good bye |
| 09:57:10 | <kuribas> | could we have "recommended laws"? |
| 09:57:20 | <kuribas> | Not really laws, but nice to have? |
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| 09:57:39 | <maerwald> | "It would be nice if your function works"? |
| 09:58:07 | <merijn> | maerwald: The problem is that people don't agree on what "works" means |
| 09:58:13 | <nshepperd2> | parametricity of mzero tells you that '(v >> mzero) >>= f = v >> mzero' |
| 09:58:20 | <maerwald> | I think... if an instance has *additional* laws, it can document them in the instance |
| 09:58:31 | <nshepperd2> | which is what 'can't recover' means in practice |
| 09:59:21 | <ski> | "because mzero didn't do any side-effect" -- `mzero' by definition expresses a non-trivial effect (the absence of an answer) |
| 10:00:20 | <maerwald> | so mzero just means "there is failure" |
| 10:00:28 | <nshepperd2> | (as long as >>= doesn't do anything which would already violate the monad laws, probably) |
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| 10:00:53 | <tdammers> | kuribas: laws are recommendations already. the compiler can't enforce them, your code will still compile and run if you violate them, it will just be inconsistent, surprising, unpredictable, or otherwise act strange |
| 10:01:42 | <maerwald> | well, then the laws are not violated if you think of it only in terms of equational reasoning without program execution |
| 10:02:37 | <nshepperd2> | '(v >> mzero) >>= f = v >> mzero' would probably be a better law than 'v >> mzero = mzero' at least |
| 10:02:53 | <kuribas> | agreed |
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| 10:03:54 | <dminuoso> | MonadZero, the typeclass with laws nobody can agree on. |
| 10:03:54 | <ski> | that already holds by associativity, and right absorption |
| 10:04:03 | <dminuoso> | Err MonadPlus. |
| 10:04:20 | <nshepperd2> | oh yeah so it does |
| 10:04:54 | <nshepperd2> | the law is just unnecessary as i thought then |
| 10:05:19 | <ski> | @wiki MonadPlus |
| 10:05:19 | <lambdabot> | https://wiki.haskell.org/MonadPlus |
| 10:05:21 | <ski> | @wiki MonadPlus_reform_proposal |
| 10:05:21 | <lambdabot> | https://wiki.haskell.org/MonadPlus_reform_proposal |
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| 10:06:44 | <maerwald> | " IO is not even in MonadPlus," |
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| 10:12:11 | <ski> | well, i'm not convinced it should be |
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| 10:13:13 | <nshepperd2> | IO is in MonadPlus now |
| 10:13:19 | <ski> | i know |
| 10:13:43 | <nshepperd2> | ofc these same issues apply to ExceptT over anything as well |
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| 10:22:34 | <maerwald> | we could start a "Class law task force" :p |
| 10:22:50 | <maerwald> | put it on HF tech track |
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| 10:39:18 | <siers> | I'm trying ghc -threaded && ./ +RTS -N8, but with ghc -threaded -O I don't see CPU high usage any more |
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| 10:55:52 | <siers> | for this cycle wasting program http://sprunge.us/ubbaBZ |
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| 10:59:48 | <tomsmeding> | siers: what do you see instead? |
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| 11:01:52 | <tomsmeding> | okay I see the same, it uses one core only |
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| 11:03:50 | <siers> | yup |
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| 11:15:19 | <tomsmeding> | I think the problem is that your cycle-spinning function does not perform any allocations, so there are no points where the scheduler can step in and yield the computation to a different thread |
| 11:15:54 | <tomsmeding> | this is not based on any knowledge of the RTS internals, but in the past I've played briefly with these parallel combinators and found out that stuff starts acting very strangely when your worker computations perform no allocations |
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| 11:16:28 | <tomsmeding> | for example: adding {-# NOINLINE tl #-} fixes the behaviour with -O |
| 11:19:46 | <siers> | ok, new wasting algo: http://sprunge.us/icSqSP |
| 11:19:51 | <siers> | this one works as expected |
| 11:20:00 | <tomsmeding> | siers: this does work for me https://paste.tomsmeding.com/LXrSEv3l |
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| 11:20:14 | <tomsmeding> | lol or that |
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| 11:21:06 | <siers> | :) ok, main point is we know why |
| 11:21:18 | <siers> | back to work 😅 |
| 11:21:28 | <tomsmeding> | (I _think_ it works this way) |
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| 11:46:45 | <Cajun> | how can i go about installing all dependencies of a project as libraries? ive tried using `cabal install --only-dependencies` but GHC wont use those during compilation and still complains they dont exist. when i install them individually with --lib, it works fine. ive had issues using `cabal install --only-dependencies --lib` and am curious if |
| 11:46:45 | <Cajun> | there is an alternative. here is the command output https://paste.tomsmeding.com/vt6MCFSR |
| 11:47:50 | <siers> | tomsmeding, I should be able to parallelly compute sparks from [IO a], with parList . sequence? |
| 11:49:18 | <tomsmeding> | siers: IO is strict, so sequence evaluates the returned values of the monad computations in the list to WHNF |
| 11:49:35 | <tomsmeding> | meaning that 'sequence' will already compute the values sequentially, so parList won't have anything to do anymore |
| 11:49:47 | <tomsmeding> | % import Debug.Trace |
| 11:49:48 | <yahb> | tomsmeding: |
| 11:49:57 | <tomsmeding> | % sequence [trace "hi" (return ()), trace "by" (return ())] >> putStrLn "ok" |
| 11:49:58 | <yahb> | tomsmeding: hi; by; ok |
| 11:50:46 | <tomsmeding> | hm that might not be a great test |
| 11:50:59 | <siers> | you're probably right though |
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| 11:56:34 | <maerwald> | Cajun: try `cabal v1-install`, which has that legacy behavior... however, generally you don't want that but use environments |
| 11:57:32 | <maerwald> | --lib in v2 isn't that much used, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are bugs |
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| 11:57:53 | <ski> | % let sequenceInterleaveIO :: [IO a] -> IO [a]; sequenceInterleaveIO acts0 = unsafeInterleaveIO case acts0 of [] -> pure []; act:acts -> liftA2 (:) act (sequenceInterleaveIO acts) |
| 11:57:53 | <yahb> | ski: |
| 11:57:57 | <ski> | % do us0 <- sequenceInterleaveIO [trace "foo" (pure ()),trace "bar" (pure ())]; trace "baz" case us0 of _:us1 -> trace "quux" case us1 of _:us2 -> trace "frob" case us2 of [] -> pure () |
| 11:57:57 | <yahb> | ski: baz; foo; quux; bar; frob |
| 11:58:12 | <Cajun> | maerwald: so is using `cabal run <PRGM NAME>` and compiling it with flags via the .cabal file a safer option? im new to using any hs package manager |
| 11:58:55 | <maerwald> | you can also put flags in cabal.project or cabal.project.local |
| 11:59:15 | <ski> | siers : although, i guess you wanted them to be independent, so `fmap parList . mapM unsafeInterleaveIO' would be better |
| 11:59:20 | <maerwald> | Cajun: https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-project.html |
| 11:59:26 | <ski> | (fsvo "better") |
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| 12:21:55 | <nut> | will cabal build search recursively all .cabal file inside a folder? |
| 12:22:20 | <nut> | and run every .cabal file? |
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| 12:27:30 | <statusfailed> | Has anyone seen big-O notation with commas before? |
| 12:27:36 | <statusfailed> | e.g., O(m, n) |
| 12:28:57 | <[exa]> | there are some proofs that use it as a function this way but I find it ugly |
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| 12:29:19 | <[exa]> | (usually graph-theoretic ones) |
| 12:29:38 | <hpc> | is that supposed to be m+n or m*n? |
| 12:29:44 | <statusfailed> | ^ yea that's my question :D |
| 12:29:46 | <hpc> | or are these algorithms in a universe with two time dimensions? :P |
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| 12:30:04 | <statusfailed> | [exa]: I thought it might be max(m, n) too, but not sure |
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| 12:34:52 | <mupf> | Because it might be relevant to some people in here: https://twitter.com/mupfelofen/status/1392363905423486979?s=19 |
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| 12:47:03 | <[exa]> | statusfailed: mind linking the source? |
| 12:47:41 | <merijn> | it's been 3 years already? |
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| 12:51:15 | <statusfailed> | [exa]: original is here: https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/355791.355796 |
| 12:51:16 | <statusfailed> | but it's paywalled |
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| 12:55:08 | <[exa]> | I got it from one nice website with ravens |
| 12:55:28 | <statusfailed> | hehehe |
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| 12:55:40 | <merijn> | Google Scholar is good at turning up free pdfs too |
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| 12:56:42 | <statusfailed> | [exa]: I assume the O(p, r, NA, N) bit has to mean either maximum or sum of those, because N is "the number of nontrivial multiplications"- if it's product then surely this algorithm is like O(n^6) worst case |
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| 12:57:22 | <[exa]> | yeah sounds like + or `max` would fit there best in any cases |
| 12:57:34 | <[exa]> | kinda like O(a,b,c) = O(a)+O(b)+O(c) |
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| 12:58:19 | <[exa]> | but man, can't they just write + |
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| 13:02:41 | <statusfailed> | [exa]: ikr :D |
| 13:02:48 | <statusfailed> | 1978 though, maybe it was the done thing :) |
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| 13:52:13 | <cheater> | i have a list of monadic values, [m a] and i'd like to force all of them to compute but i only want to keep the last a. how do i do that? |
| 13:52:57 | <merijn> | :t foldl1 (>>) |
| 13:52:58 | <lambdabot> | (Foldable t, Monad m) => t (m a) -> m a |
| 13:53:20 | <cheater> | thanks |
| 13:53:21 | <ski> | s/force/execute/ |
| 13:54:11 | <ski> | (or perhaps s/force/cause/ with s/compute/execute/ ..) |
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| 13:55:24 | <cheater> | ski: i need to make sure they don't get wished away by the compiler. |
| 13:55:37 | <cheater> | i need to make sure those computations actually run on the hardware. |
| 13:56:03 | <merijn> | cheater: The compiler doesn't wish things away |
| 13:56:14 | <cheater> | you know what i mean. laziness. |
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| 13:56:34 | <merijn> | laziness is orthogonal to monadic effects |
| 13:56:59 | <cheater> | :/ |
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| 13:57:50 | <cheater> | confused |
| 13:57:53 | <merijn> | You can only observe side-effects and >> for IO enforces their ordering and observability |
| 13:58:22 | <cheater> | yeah that doesn't help me |
| 13:58:30 | <merijn> | cheater: My point was: laziness is irrelevant for the observability of side-effects (unless you're using unsafeX, which is on you) |
| 13:58:39 | <cheater> | i have a monadic value which i want to run 1000 times for a benchmark. |
| 13:59:01 | <cheater> | i still have no idea what you're saying |
| 13:59:03 | <merijn> | cheater: oh, that problem has an even simpler solution |
| 13:59:07 | <merijn> | @hackage criterion |
| 13:59:08 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/criterion |
| 13:59:11 | <cheater> | no |
| 13:59:53 | <cheater> | that doesn't work for me |
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| 13:59:56 | <cheater> | i need to do this by hand |
| 14:00:20 | <cheater> | this is inside the monad from the accelerate library |
| 14:00:40 | <cheater> | it takes ages to upload data onto the gpu and then the computation happens. i want to measure the computation itself, not the upload time. |
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| 14:00:57 | <cheater> | however, all of that is performed as a single IO action. |
| 14:01:11 | <merijn> | cheater: well, then you're hosed |
| 14:01:22 | <cheater> | please be nice |
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| 14:01:26 | <cheater> | my day is crap as it is |
| 14:01:31 | <merijn> | No, I'm serious |
| 14:01:39 | <cheater> | no. you're not. |
| 14:01:45 | <merijn> | Benchmarking stuff like that is really tricky and there is no quick and simple solution |
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| 14:02:07 | <cheater> | so rather than talk about criterion let's go back to what i was originally trying to do |
| 14:02:08 | <cheater> | which is |
| 14:02:13 | <merijn> | You'll have to pry apart the accelerate single IO action into something you can splice timings into |
| 14:02:15 | <cheater> | make 1000 copies of a monadic action run |
| 14:02:19 | <cheater> | lol, no |
| 14:02:28 | <cheater> | i'll just run the thing so many times that the upload time is insignificant |
| 14:03:02 | <merijn> | Yeah, but getting the compiler to actually run trivial loops like that multiple times is not easy |
| 14:03:02 | <exarkun> | cheater: Why don't you just subtract the upload time |
| 14:03:06 | <cheater> | or i can run it 1000, 2000, and 3000 x, look at the wall times, and curve fit the cost of just the computation. |
| 14:03:16 | <cheater> | exarkun: the upload time cannot be measured separately from the computation. |
| 14:03:20 | <exarkun> | cheater: Sure it can |
| 14:03:26 | <exarkun> | You control the computation right? |
| 14:03:36 | <cheater> | what's your idea? |
| 14:03:57 | <exarkun> | Upload a basically-free computation. Maybe repeat it a lot of times to get the distribution. |
| 14:04:00 | <cheater> | just change the computation? |
| 14:04:09 | <merijn> | cheater: by "hosed" I meant "you will have to do a lot of manual effort to ensure the compiler doesn't defeat your logic and actually run it 1000 times" |
| 14:04:16 | <exarkun> | Now you know what an upload costs, right? |
| 14:04:19 | <cheater> | a single computation will get hidden in the noise |
| 14:04:25 | <merijn> | exarkun: Not really |
| 14:04:27 | <exarkun> | Where does the noise come from? |
| 14:04:33 | <merijn> | Data transfer to GPU is rather noisy |
| 14:04:45 | <merijn> | cheater: nvidia gpu? |
| 14:04:48 | <cheater> | yes |
| 14:04:50 | <cheater> | it's a T4 |
| 14:05:00 | <merijn> | cheater: Here's an entirely different idea |
| 14:05:06 | <cheater> | i'm comparing against the cpu backend (accelerate allows both) |
| 14:05:08 | <merijn> | cheater: Run your code inside nvprof? |
| 14:05:21 | <merijn> | cheater: nvprof can time actual kernel invocations |
| 14:05:23 | <cheater> | never heard of that. what would that do? |
| 14:05:33 | <merijn> | cheater: It's nvidia's profiling tool |
| 14:05:44 | <cheater> | ok, and what does it tell me? |
| 14:05:45 | <exarkun> | People can extract the signal that comes from the difference between memcmp looking at 4 bytes instead of 8 bytes in JavaScript over the public internet |
| 14:05:52 | <cheater> | not sure how to run it , let me look |
| 14:05:53 | <exarkun> | Does transfer to a GPU have more noise than that? |
| 14:06:09 | <cheater> | exarkun: that's an interesting idea, but i'll try other approaches first. |
| 14:06:18 | <merijn> | cheater: Well, I mostly work with handwritten CUDA, but presumably accelerate just generates CUDA/openCL kernels |
| 14:06:31 | <merijn> | cheater: nvprof tracks kernel launches (and finishing) in the driver |
| 14:06:40 | <merijn> | cheater: So you bypass the host code entirely in your measurements |
| 14:06:44 | <merijn> | cheater: https://docs.nvidia.com/cuda/profiler-users-guide/index.html |
| 14:06:48 | <cheater> | merijn: what it does is it invokes llvm at runtime to compile its program into cuda, and then runs that. |
| 14:06:58 | <cheater> | i'm not sure if nvprof will catch that out |
| 14:07:05 | <merijn> | cheater: Sure it will |
| 14:07:08 | <cheater> | ok |
| 14:07:15 | <cheater> | let me try that then |
| 14:07:18 | <merijn> | cheater: It can't bypass the nvidia driver in the kernel |
| 14:07:26 | <cheater> | *shrug* yeah |
| 14:07:32 | <merijn> | cheater: That's the only way to talk to the GPU and nvprof interacts with the driver |
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| 14:08:05 | <merijn> | cheater: Can't hurt to try anyway, at worst you spend 10 minutes and it fails, at best it saves you hours of coding :p |
| 14:08:06 | <cheater> | so what, just nvprov my-binary ? |
| 14:08:34 | <cheater> | hmm yeah that's nice |
| 14:08:41 | <cheater> | that actually did a thing |
| 14:08:49 | <merijn> | \o/ |
| 14:08:52 | <cheater> | however |
| 14:08:58 | <cheater> | i'm not sure how to measure the cpu then |
| 14:09:05 | <cheater> | because the same tool does not exist for the cpu backend. |
| 14:09:13 | <cheater> | so i'm back to square one on that. |
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| 14:13:00 | <cheater> | i wish accelerate had a LiftIO of some sort |
| 14:13:03 | <cheater> | but it doesn't seem to |
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| 14:21:19 | <cheater> | ah, crap. the thing i thought was a monad isn't a monad. |
| 14:21:30 | <cheater> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/accelerate-1.3.0.0/docs/Data-Array-Accelerate.html#t:Acc |
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| 14:48:13 | <mupf> | merijn: yes, three years to the day. |
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| 14:50:34 | <Franciman> | Hi, is there any arm build for cabal? |
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| 14:52:11 | <siraben> | Can someone clarify what the difference is between deep/shallow embedding of DSLs? |
| 14:52:14 | <siraben> | and which kind is tagless-final? |
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| 14:54:08 | <dminuoso> | https://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/people/jeremy.gibbons/publications/embedding-short.pdf |
| 14:55:10 | <cheater> | tomsmeding: hey are you around? :) |
| 14:56:34 | <siraben> | dminuoso: thanks |
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| 14:58:23 | <maerwald> | Franciman: yes |
| 14:58:32 | <maerwald> | Franciman: ghcup already has it |
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| 14:59:13 | <maerwald> | https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghcup/unofficial-bindists/cabal/3.4.0.0/ |
| 14:59:37 | <maerwald> | aarch64 is here https://downloads.haskell.org/~cabal/cabal-install-3.4.0.0/ |
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| 15:05:35 | <tomsmeding> | cheater: meetings meetings I'll be there in a little while |
| 15:06:05 | <cheater> | tomsmeding: thanks. i'm stuck on something stupid :) |
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| 15:10:11 | <Franciman> | OHOH maerwald thanks a lot |
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| 15:10:15 | <Franciman> | I am stupid |
| 15:10:21 | <Franciman> | I didn't know aarch64 -> arm |
| 15:10:27 | <Franciman> | sorry |
| 15:10:30 | <Franciman> | thank you very much |
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| 16:49:56 | <hatds> | Where does cabal expect to find (static) C libraries that it is told to link when compiling a package from hackage? Is it the same place ghc expects to find libraries? The documentation only talks about sending paths with -l and -L, etc., but what are the default locations searched? (and is there a best practice location on windows to put random C-libs I'm downloading off the internet to get some-random-package to run?) |
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| 16:58:21 | <geekosaur> | ghc will look where the C compiler looks by default. afaik that is only well defined on unixlikes, not on windows |
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| 16:59:13 | <geekosaur> | although f you're using mingw it should be its /usr/lib |
| 16:59:46 | <cheater> | hatds: on linux it's set by the linker config in /etc. |
| 17:00:02 | <dminuoso> | Also consider using pkgconfig-depends, hatds |
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| 17:03:38 | <hatds> | thanks all (@geekosaur, @cheater, @dminuoso). So what do haskellers on windows generally do when they download packages that contain C dependencies.. give full paths to cabal everytime they install something? |
| 17:03:52 | <cheater> | idk i would like to know as well |
| 17:03:55 | <cheater> | are you using llvm on windows btw? |
| 17:04:00 | <hatds> | no |
| 17:04:08 | <cheater> | ok. because it's broken. |
| 17:04:30 | <dminuoso> | Dunno, does pkgconf work on windows? |
| 17:04:43 | <geekosaur> | with mingw, yes |
| 17:04:55 | <dminuoso> | https://github.com/mesonbuild/meson/issues/4029 |
| 17:05:01 | <dminuoso> | Heh, this looks like *quite* a journey |
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| 17:05:13 | <geekosaur> | if there's a native build that uses msc somewhere, that isn't guaranteed to use anything |
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| 17:05:51 | <hatds> | pkgconf... I've seen some packages use that in their cabal file somewhere, but I'm installing something that is not my package... don't really want to manually edit the project to rely on pkgconf and figure out the right incantions for that |
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| 17:09:16 | <dminuoso> | hatds: on linux thats the point of pkg-conf, it just works automagically most of the time |
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| 17:09:24 | <dminuoso> | https://github.com/k0001/hs-libsodium/blob/master/libsodium/libsodium.cabal#L22 |
| 17:10:12 | <geekosaur> | well behaved packages install .pc files for pkg-config |
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| 17:11:06 | <maerwald> | geekosaur: depends |
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| 17:27:43 | <maerwald> | does llvm have them even? |
| 17:28:08 | <maerwald> | I think foo-config binaries are equally viable... it's just they're unergonomic to use in Cabal |
| 17:28:15 | <maerwald> | there should be better support for that |
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| 17:56:52 | <CuPenguin> | anybody here using NixOS? |
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| 18:31:29 | <sm[m]> | nope, no nix fans in here.. move along, move along |
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| 18:39:01 | <aldum> | I beg to differ, somewhat |
| 18:39:22 | <aldum> | haven't booted it in some months, but I do have an install |
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| 18:40:41 | <deejaytee> | I use it a fair bit at work - I'm not clever enough for it, so it gives me grief |
| 18:40:59 | <deejaytee> | s/use/have to use |
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| 18:41:02 | <monochrom> | Pretty sure it was a joke. |
| 18:41:31 | <deejaytee> | The question or the subject? :P |
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| 18:47:06 | <tomjaguarpaw> | bitonic: Sorry, I missed your message about Opaleye. The best way of getting my attention is to file an issue on Opaleye Github. But no, it doesn't support any binary format. In fact I didn't know there was one! I would be very encouraging of supporting it though. I guess the idea is that it has better performance? Anyway, if you want to discuss more please open an issue. |
| 18:47:50 | <bitonic> | tomjaguarpaw: no problem. yes, the idea is that it has better performance. we're dealing with ~10MB jsonb columns and it takes many seconds to roundtrip them |
| 18:47:54 | <bitonic> | i will open an issue |
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| 18:50:22 | <veverak> | I am lost in this |
| 18:50:37 | <veverak> | I have `Double`, how to convert it to Scientific? |
| 18:50:52 | <veverak> | (I use Double for radians, library I am using expects Scientific) |
| 18:52:06 | <tomjaguarpaw> | fromFloatDigits? "Convert a RealFloat (like a Double or Float) into a Scientific number." |
| 18:52:18 | <veverak> | ah, yes |
| 18:52:26 | <veverak> | thanks, I was blind when reading the doc |
| 18:52:36 | <tomjaguarpaw> | Easy to do |
| 18:52:53 | <bitonic> | tomjaguarpaw: https://github.com/tomjaguarpaw/haskell-opaleye/issues/506 fairly nondescript issue, feel free to ask for more details (although i'm not an expert myself) |
| 18:54:13 | <tomjaguarpaw> | Oh, you are mazzo.li? Nice blog post on backpropagation! |
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| 19:07:10 | <grepcake> | Is anyone familiar with async-pool? It seems to deadlock on pretty simple things, or maybe I'm misusing it. The example: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/g7D1u8vA. I have -threaded and -N4 specified, launch it as `stack test --ta "-m taskgroup"` |
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| 19:29:36 | <dminuoso> | grepcake: There's something odd here, the second argument to withTaskGroup ought to be a function, not an IO value. |
| 19:31:04 | <dminuoso> | Does this really compile for you? |
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| 19:32:20 | <dminuoso> | Ah, I suck at reading types today. |
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| 19:36:59 | <grepcake> | dminuoso: you probably've figured it out, but it's an eta-reduced function, tg is implicit |
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| 19:41:24 | <dminuoso> | main = print =<< withTaskGroup 4 acting where acting g = sum <$> mapConcurrently g pure [2,3,4,5,6] |
| 19:41:26 | <dminuoso> | Works fine for me |
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| 19:43:26 | <grepcake> | dminuoso: Yes, it works with mapConcurrently but not with Concurrently |
| 19:43:59 | <grepcake> | Moreover, it does work when the number of tasks is lesser than the pool capacity |
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| 19:45:01 | <grepcake> | (and I kind of need to have Concurrently, so I'm stuck with it) I guess I'll report the issue and move on to unliftio.async |
| 19:45:31 | <dminuoso> | Concurrently fs <*> Concurrently as = Concurrently $ \tg -> (\(f, a) -> f a) <$> concurrently tg (fs tg) (as tg) |
| 19:45:33 | <dminuoso> | Mmm |
| 19:45:54 | <dminuoso> | mapConcurrently f = runConcurrently . traverse (Concurrently . f) |
| 19:45:55 | <dminuoso> | This is strange |
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| 19:48:24 | <dminuoso> | Ah that's the wrong mapConcurrently definition |
| 19:48:32 | <dminuoso> | mapConcurrently tg f = mapTasks tg . fmap f |
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| 20:06:13 | <dminuoso> | geekosaur: I feel like this is related to https://github.com/jwiegley/async-pool/issues/7 |
| 20:06:28 | <dminuoso> | Judging from the original implementation, Id say it's exactly the same |
| 20:06:51 | <geekosaur> | I think you wanted grepcake |
| 20:06:57 | <geekosaur> | but they left |
| 20:07:42 | <dminuoso> | Oh, indeed. |
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| 21:27:45 | <xaxaxixax> | does anyone have any tips for working with the GHC-emitted haskell ASTs? I'm writing a plugin that manipulates the AST and it's a massive bother, the data types are completely inconsistent between versions and the docs seem to be broken |
| 21:28:14 | <xaxaxixax> | I've found https://github.com/nboldi/haskell-tools which I could read through to see how they deal with it, but anyone have any other tips? |
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| 21:32:10 | <deejaytee> | I'm aware of http://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-lib-parser but I'm not sure if that is what you're looking for |
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| 21:36:02 | <chasmonad> | hi all... is there a way to capture `cabal build` output so I can filter out the extraneous version spam? `cabal build 2>&1 | grep -v extraneous` does not work, for example |
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| 21:36:52 | <xaxaxixax> | oh nice, that might be able to fix the inconsistent docs issue, thanks! the problem is the AST is handed to me by GHC, so I have to track down the exact docs for the version of GHC I'm using. i think though if I use the haddock build/host thing that should work |
| 21:37:25 | <xaxaxixax> | the data types themselves are real messes though, the source line tagging and everything makes it a horrible mess to pattern match on |
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| 21:37:59 | <xaxaxixax> | never used lenses but they're one solution to this sort of issue, right? |
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| 21:42:23 | <deejaytee> | it depends - if all you need is to match on particularly complex data constructors that will always have the same shape, PatternSynonyms may be all you need |
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| 21:43:35 | <deejaytee> | (it's a language extension) |
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| 21:53:59 | <chasmonad> | hmmmm ping timeouts sigh |
| 21:55:44 | <xaxaxixax> | ah pattern synonyms look really nice, im kicking myself for not finding this earlier |
| 21:56:37 | <xaxaxixax> | incidentally, are extensions implemented in the same way as plugins? |
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| 21:57:05 | <deejaytee> | one of the best and worst things I ever did was read the whole GHC language extension list end to end |
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| 21:58:16 | <ski> | dunno what you mean by "plugins" |
| 21:58:43 | <deejaytee> | re extension implementation, no idea, but I suspect a fair few of them would be difficult to impossible w/ just the GHC API |
| 21:59:07 | <deejaytee> | if that's what you mean by plugins |
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| 21:59:39 | <xaxaxixax> | plugins as in https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/extending_ghc.html#compiler-plugins |
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| 22:01:32 | <Cale> | xaxaxixax: Pattern synonyms are equal parts nice and horrible. :) |
| 22:01:39 | <Cale> | They're a cool idea, but the way they interact with the type system is a bit cringey. |
| 22:01:50 | <Cale> | You end up with weird-looking types with multiple => contexts that can't be combined, because there's a distinction to be made between what needs to be true to use the pattern synonym and what you learn when you use it. |
| 22:02:28 | <Cale> | -- and even that doesn't really get you the full generality you might want, since there's still one big forall quantifying the variables |
| 22:02:28 | <ski> | some kind of version of mode declarations, a la Mercury, could be helpful |
| 22:03:11 | ← | Xyberista parts (~tonyc@208.163.180.21) ("""") |
| 22:03:17 | <Cale> | Or maybe there ought to be a type constructor for patterns |
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| 22:04:26 | <ski> | (or, i suppose one could possibly phrase them as a sort of functional dependency / injectivity constraints, hmm .. although how would one specify which constraints are learned ?) |
| 22:04:29 | <Cale> | There's this distinction between required and provided stuff when it comes to classes, but not for arguments to the pattern, and I think it makes sense to want that sometimes |
| 22:04:49 | <ski> | yes, it definitely does |
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| 22:05:35 | <ski> | e.g. imagine being able to match on `xs ++ ys', `xs' being an expression, and `ys' a pattern |
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| 22:05:44 | <Cale> | yeah |
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| 22:06:01 | <Cale> | Or if you wanted to implement c*n + k patterns :) |
| 22:06:48 | ski | was sketching some examples, another time, of a syntax in which such expression-parameterized pattern-synonyms could naturally be specified/defined |
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| 22:08:34 | <Iceland_jack> | https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/pattern-families |
| 22:08:55 | <ski> | (hm, also reminds me i should continue thinking about specifying bijections / type equalities directly, since that ties into these syntactical matters about patterns as well ..) |
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| 22:09:25 | <Cale> | I was thinking it might be nice to have, instead of Req => Prov => t1 -> ... -> tn -> t, have all the "required" stuff occur outside the Pattern type constructor, and provided stuff inside it, like Req => Pattern (Prov => t1 -> ... -> tn -> t) |
| 22:09:46 | <ski> | oh, i forgot to ask what you mean by "type constructor for patterns" |
| 22:10:07 | <ski> | Iceland_jack : unfortunately seems to time out atm. hopefully it'll work later ? |
| 22:10:08 | <Cale> | Yeah, just a sort of wired-in thing |
| 22:10:42 | <ski> | could you give an example of how it might look, for a concrete example ? |
| 22:11:23 | <deejaytee> | stopped timing out for me about a minute ago |
| 22:11:53 | <geekosaur> | it's been having problems all afternoon, just retry until it works |
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| 22:14:55 | <Cale> | Sure, so we could have something like... pattern Is :: (Eq a) => a -> Pattern a; pattern Is x y = (True <- x == y) |
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| 22:15:47 | <ski> | Cale : <https://paste.tomsmeding.com/Qa0bDI6k> was some scribbles (experimenting with several alternative syntaces) on this that i did |
| 22:15:53 | <Cale> | er... something like that |
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| 22:22:29 | <ski> | Cale : how about `pattern Req => psyn ParamType0 ... :: Prov => BindType0 -> ... -> MatchType', in that case. so `pattern Eq a => Is a :: a; pattern Is x = ((x ==) -> True)' (or with a different style of doing the concrete defining equation, if you prefer) ? |
| 22:23:30 | <ski> | hmm |
| 22:24:15 | <Cale> | Oh, yeah, I kind of fucked up my example there, but you got the idea of it :) |
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| 22:24:30 | <ski> | (yea, `Is x y' didn't make sense to me ..) |
| 22:25:11 | <Cale> | Yeah, it should have been Is x = (True <- (x ==)) indeed |
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| 22:25:34 | <ski> | i suppose with `data Foo = Prov => Mk T U', `T' and `U' would be "bind types", not "param types" .. hm. making the analogy less appealing |
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| 22:29:23 | <ski> | (one could also perhaps imagine wanting the param types to sometimes come after the bind ones. like with `n + k' (rather than `k + n' that i did in the paste above). something like `pattern Integral a,Ord a,k :: a |- n + k :: a -| n :: a', hmm ..) |
| 22:32:56 | <ski> | as for definitions, i had the notion of `pattern case <pattern application definiendum> of <implementing body pattern (definiens)> -> <list of bindings to make>; ...' (see e.g. `(/\/)' in the paste) |
| 22:35:40 | <ski> | however, instead of having the pattern definiendum be of the form `psyn param0 ... subpattern0 ...' (where `param0',.. are ordinary patterns that you can match on, like the left parameter of `++'. effectively `[] ++ ys' is a different pattern synonym to `(x:xs) ++ ys', and `xs ++ ys' is a pattern synonym that will dispatch to one of the former, after matching on `xs') |
| 22:36:58 | <ski> | and where `subpattern0',.. are identifiers referring to the subpatterns that we actually apply the pattern synonym to, where we must mention all those identifiers once, in the definiens / body pattern (the expansion of the pattern synonym) |
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| 22:39:20 | <ski> | instead of doing this, we could allow `subpattern0',.. to be arbitrary *expressions* (using variables bound by the definiens / body pattern). then `pattern case psyn param0 ... subpattern0 ... of <body pattern> -> <additional bindings for subpatterns>' reduces to `pattern psyn param0 ... subpattern0 ... = <body pattern>' |
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| 22:42:55 | <ski> | this should explain the alternate definition of view patterns (in terms of this imagined generalized pattern synonyms definition syntax), from `pattern case f -> b of a -> b = a', to `pattern f -> f a = a'. e.g. if you want to match the pattern `last -> x' with a list `xs', this amounts to binding `x' to `last x', since then the pattern is `last -> last xs', which by definition is equal to `xs', which |
| 22:43:01 | <ski> | trivially matches the `xs' input scrutinee |
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| 22:51:01 | <ski> | (i guess `f ->' formally looks like it was a post-inverse to `f', like if the pattern was ⌜last⁻¹ x⌝ rather than `last -> x'. but it's not like ⌜last⁻¹⌝ is actually a retraction of ⌜last⌝. if ⌜last⁻¹⌝ would (e.g.) generate a singleton list, it would in fact be a section of ⌜last⌝ (you can imagine that `xs' is a `NonEmpty a' rather than a `[a]', to avoid the unrelated issue of |
| 22:51:07 | <ski> | `last' being partial). but it rather appears like ⌜last⁻¹⌝ is *copartial*, iow ⌜last⁻¹ x⌝ doesn't stand for any specific list with ⌜x⌝ as last element, but rather ambiguously stands for them all (matches with all of them)) |
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| 22:58:16 | <ski> | Iceland_jack,deejaytee : works now, ty |
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