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Logs on 2021-05-17 (freenode/#haskell)

00:01:33 <pavonia> In this function definition <https://hackage.haskell.org/package/JuicyPixels-3.3.5/docs/src/Codec.Picture.Types.html#pixelBaseIndex>, why does (undefined :: a) refer to the class variable? Shouldn't there be an explicit forall?
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00:04:15 <geekosaur> not as part of a class definition, iirc, all types declared in the class head are available inside the class definition even without explicit forall or ScopedTypeVariables
00:04:41 <geekosaur> otherwise it'd be hard to associate them properly with the class head
00:06:24 <pavonia> Yeah, seems to be different for classes indeed https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/scoped_type_variables.html#class-and-instance-declarations
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00:19:03 <hpc> Axman6: the best you can do is essentially
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00:19:26 <hpc> Axman6: er, is essentially "if bottom then crash" with seq or whatever
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00:26:21 <boxscape> whoops
00:26:38 <Axman6> Urgh, I'm so sick of compiler spam on freenode :P
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00:37:54 <monochrom> C's void is not to be confused with Haskel's () in the first place.
00:38:07 <Axman6> yeah I did think that was a bit of an odd statement
00:38:19 <Axman6> you can't have a value of type void in C right?
00:38:34 <monochrom> There is a general theme. People also confuse Java interface with Haskell type class.
00:39:03 <monochrom> Generally, when two different solutions solve the same problem, people will conflate the two solutions.
00:39:25 <monochrom> You can't even declare a variable of type void. "void x".
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00:43:27 <monochrom> I can argue that void is not even a type. With that, "does void have values?" is not even a valid question.
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00:44:58 <monochrom> Reason being void cannot be used at most places where all other types can be used. "void x;", "int f(void y, void z)", "struct S { void a; };"
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00:46:50 <olligobber> % data Void
00:46:50 <yahb> olligobber:
00:46:57 <olligobber> % :t undefined :: Void
00:46:57 <yahb> olligobber: Void
00:47:07 <olligobber> I made something of type Void, yay
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00:47:20 <monochrom> % data Voila
00:47:20 <yahb> monochrom:
00:47:22 <Axman6> prove it
00:47:36 <pjb> Yes, in C, void is just a keyword that means different things depending on the context.
00:47:38 <monochrom> You made Void a type. Voila!
00:47:48 <pjb> void f(); means f doesn't return a value.
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00:48:16 <pjb> f(void); means f doesn't take any argument (vs f() which means that f can take any number of arguments).
00:48:33 <pjb> void* denotes a type of pointer to anything.
00:48:42 <olligobber> Axman6, the compiler said the type of my thing is Void, so it is
00:48:43 <monochrom> Let's be semantic. "void f()" means that the function analogy really breaks down, f is a procedure not a function.
00:48:52 <pjb> exactly.
00:50:13 <monochrom> It is somewhat cute that with void you can get rid of two verbose reserved words "function" and "procedure" from Pascal. There is credit for that.
00:51:21 <monochrom> This is also where Dunning-Kruger is right about syntax doing brainwashing.
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00:54:24 <pjb> monochrom: it's just an after the fact kludge.
00:55:49 <pjb> It took about ten years for void to appear in C.
00:55:53 <monochrom> The road to hell is paved with well-intended kludges >:)
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00:59:38 <boxscape> what did C do before void?
00:59:52 <boxscape> ..just have int as return type I guess?
00:59:53 <geekosaur> not bother to return int
00:59:59 <boxscape> okay
01:00:12 <boxscape> right return is optional..
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01:02:18 <pjb> boxscape: yes, by default f(); returns an int. But if you don't use return n; the result is just what is in the register.
01:02:25 <boxscape> I see
01:02:50 <Axman6> what id you don't have registers
01:02:52 <Axman6> if*
01:02:55 <pjb> boxscape: of course, it would be bad style to int r=f(); if f doesn't contain a return n; … Some compilers started to issue warning.
01:03:02 <pjb> then AT& introduced void.
01:03:13 <pjb> Axman6: whatever there was on the stack then.
01:03:46 <monochrom> I don't know whether I should also ask "what if there is no stack" :)
01:03:47 <pjb> It's was just kludges upon kludges really.
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01:04:05 <monochrom> I agree.
01:04:24 <pjb> Eg. the declaration matches use form, was just a kludge to use the same parsing code for both, in early compilers that had to run with 4kw of RAM…
01:04:43 <monochrom> generally s/register/whatever default place the caller expects to find return values/
01:05:13 <geekosaur> which was memory on some IBM CPUs iirc
01:05:44 <pjb> or on the PDP-7 they started unix on.
01:06:03 <monochrom> Yeah. Recall that before Peter Naur taught the world how to support recursion, ...
01:06:13 <pjb> Mind you, at the time, unix sources contained in general a single function per source file! Check them in git!
01:06:40 <pjb> Well, it was already implemented in lisp in 1959…
01:06:43 <monochrom> Each procedure is given a static memory area for being passed parameters and passing return values.
01:06:58 <monochrom> and is exactly why people couldn't support recursion.
01:07:41 <pjb> https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo
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01:14:19 <boxscape> pretty weird to see "52 years ago" in a github repo
01:14:55 <monochrom> and don't forget https://github.com/dmr-1941-2011 :)
01:15:09 <monochrom> "wow you can do that?!"
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01:31:56 <Axman6> if anyone was wondering what prompted my question about Void and (), it was https://counterexamples.org/, which is doing a great reaffirming how I feel about Java and Scala
01:34:47 <monochrom> :)
01:35:27 <Axman6> Not that Haskell's type system comes out unscathed
01:36:12 <monochrom> Java has instanceof which breaks parametricity in the first place.
01:36:31 <monochrom> To be sure, most people don't actually use it to troll.
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01:37:36 <Axman6> if(obj isinstanceof JimsObject) { throw GodIHateJimException(); }
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01:37:59 <Axman6> uh, -is
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01:42:30 <a6a45081-2b83> :t \v -> case v of Error e -> error "Error"; Success v -> insert_ v
01:42:31 <lambdabot> error:
01:42:31 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘Error’
01:42:32 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant variable ‘error’ (imported from Prelude)
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01:46:47 <Axman6> The note at the end of https://counterexamples.org/distinctness-options.html is reassuring
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01:49:02 <a6a45081-2b83> Axman6: perhaps this is relevant to me...?
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01:49:56 <Axman6> It's relevant to anyone using programming languages, but as far as I can see from your code above, it's not immediately relevant to your problem
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01:50:50 <Axman6> a6a45081-2b83: are you having a problem wiht that code that we can help you with?
01:51:04 <Axman6> with*
01:51:06 <a6a45081-2b83> that would be great
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01:51:53 <a6a45081-2b83> error branch infers as String, success branch infers as ReaderT a b
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01:52:18 <Axman6> what is the type of insert_?
01:52:40 <Axman6> and I assume that there's something like data Result e a = Error e | Success a?
01:53:17 <a6a45081-2b83> got it, I was having (error "error" ++ e) instead of (error $ "error" ++ e)
01:53:18 <a6a45081-2b83> :((
01:53:34 <Axman6> That'll do it :)
01:53:40 <a6a45081-2b83> hence it was expecting error :: String -> String
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01:56:02 <a6a45081-2b83> I wasted lot of time after it
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01:56:26 <a6a45081-2b83> on another note, I planned to write a side project to scrape some sites and cache in sqlite database, learned a lot of things
01:57:02 <a6a45081-2b83> although this'd be easier in python, i got to know lenses, transformers, persistant, http-conduit, aeson
01:57:03 <Axman6> I've been programming in Haskell for over a decade and still make exactly that error pretty frequently
01:57:12 <a6a45081-2b83> :)
01:57:40 <Axman6> nice, that's sounds like an exceppent project, particularly if you get to learn to many useful libraries
01:58:47 <a6a45081-2b83> still wrapping my head around so many lens operators and template haskell
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02:08:04 <a6a45081-2b83> any idea how can i rate limit my requests, will I have to record time and have a custom wait logic?
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02:15:04 <a6a45081-2b83> I think I can use Control.thread.Concurrent.delay
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02:22:31 <Axman6> searching for rate limit on hackage is likely to find some good results
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02:25:39 <Axman6> such as the rate-limit package: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/rate-limit-1.4.2/docs/Control-RateLimit.html
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02:33:25 <cdsmith> Wondering if there's an answer I'm missing here: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/doctest works, but hpc doesn't show the resulting test coverage. The alternative of testing everything twice isn't very appealing either. Anyone know a way to extract the doctests at build time instead of at runtime?
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02:39:38 <Axman6> does adding -fhpc do the testsuite's compiler flags do anything?
02:40:01 <Axman6> "Alternatively you can pass any GHC options to Doctest, e.g.:
02:40:01 <Axman6> doctest -XCPP Foo.hs"
02:40:17 <geekosaur> @hackage cabal-doctest ?
02:40:17 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cabal-doctest ?
02:41:51 <cdsmith> Hmm, I didn't try that. I will.
02:42:14 <Axman6> looks like hpc .tix files can be combined too
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02:45:27 <Axman6> while searching I came across a page listing the compilers available on a Queensland university's HPC environment, and was surprised to see GHC at the top of the list (though, the description of "GHC is a state-of-the-art, open source, compiler" and "Available versions: 7.6.2" made me chuckle a bit). I wonder who got that installed on there
02:45:33 <cdsmith> Just adding -fhpc didn't fix it. That's not too surprising, since I think cabal does a bunch of work to decide where to write the tix files and then generate an HTML report with the right ones.
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03:30:22 <guest517> how to quickly check if a string contain several strings by order? like "I want to eat chicken for lunch" contain ["eat", "chicken", "lunch"]
03:31:04 <guest517> I could use splitOn or splitAt to check and match, but that's ugly
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03:31:15 <monochrom> Not sure "quickly" means "code up quickly" or "runs quickly"
03:31:17 <guest517> I wonder is there an elegent way
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03:31:52 <guest517> monochrom: runs quickly
03:31:59 <Axman6> @hoogle [a] -> [a] -> ([a],[a])
03:32:00 <lambdabot> Data.List.Match splitAt :: [b] -> [a] -> ([a], [a])
03:32:00 <lambdabot> Util splitAtList :: [b] -> [a] -> ([a], [a])
03:32:00 <lambdabot> Util zipAndUnzip :: [a] -> [b] -> ([a], [b])
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03:32:11 <monochrom> I don't know of the most efficient algorithm.
03:32:42 <Axman6> looks like splitAt and a recursive call over the list of wanted words would work - I doubt there's amore efficient way without using Text
03:33:18 <monochrom> Or rather, I suspect that efficient algorithms are ugly.
03:33:59 <Axman6> compile a regex =)
03:34:24 <Axman6> "eat.+chicken.+lunch"
03:34:27 <monochrom> This is worse than most people's idea of regex, since this is "and" rather than "or".
03:34:50 <guest517> check if the string contain all the elements, then check if the index elements in the string sequenced by order
03:35:08 <monochrom> Also I don't think the intention is as easy as "verify that eat, check, lunch occur in that order"
03:35:50 <monochrom> Anyway, since this is "and", you are looking at constructing a product automaton.
03:35:58 <monochrom> Ugly as f**k.
03:36:24 <Axman6> I mean, as much as I hate to suggest it, a regex would let you get that information out directly. "(eat|are).+(chicken|beef|tofu).+(lunch|dinner|breakfast)" would give you the information that it matched, and the ability to inspect each match
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03:36:52 <Axman6> s/are/ate
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03:41:45 <boxscape> I'm reasonably sure that this isn't the fastest implementation due to the length call https://paste.tomsmeding.com/5uOrS3bT
03:41:55 <boxscape> but it's something I guess
03:42:39 <boxscape> I guess it might be worse than splitAt variants though...
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03:59:01 <a6a45081-2b83> how to embed the state monad inside another monad using stateT? will I have to add lift everywhere?
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04:00:46 <davean> if your operations are based on class, no. But otherwise maybe
04:00:51 <monochrom> That's a very broad question so I have a very broad answer. Just take a look at any StateT tutorial? They have examples.
04:01:06 <Axman6> containsAll [] _ = True; containsAll (needle:needles) haystack = case T.breakOn needle haystack of (_,"") -> False; (_,rest) -> containsAll needles (T.drop (T.length needle) rest)
04:01:34 <a6a45081-2b83> monochrom: looking at https://wiki.haskell.org/Simple_StateT_use, brb
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04:09:06 <a6a45081-2b83> ok so I have a ReaderT monad wrapping an IO monad. I want to wrap this with a stateT monad, which lift operations do I need?
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04:14:12 <aVikingTrex> a6a45081-2b83: what about RWS monad?
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04:19:50 <a6a45081-2b83> what is that?
04:20:07 <a6a45081-2b83> let me look that up
04:20:29 <aVikingTrex> Its a transformer that handles Reader, Writer and State
04:20:39 <aVikingTrex> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/transformers-0.5.6.2/docs/Control-Monad-Trans-RWS-CPS.html#g:1
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05:12:03 <libertyprime> haskell tooling makes me want to tear my hair out sometimes. how to set a different rc file for ghci when there is only the option -ignore-dot-ghci to disable it? .ghci should be called .ghcirc because its name makes it appear like it could be a directory. what happens when you combine -ghci-script with -ignore-dot-ghci? the man page will keep you guessing. why does it use -ignore-dot-ghci instead
05:12:09 <libertyprime> of --ignore-dot-ghci. double dash is ...
05:12:11 <libertyprime> ... standard. etc. it makes me feel unwell to use haskell tooling sometimes
05:12:14 <libertyprime> ^^ rant. sorry
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05:13:47 <libertyprime> actually. im sorry for raging here. that type of conversation belongs in a reddit or a blog post.
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05:22:34 <mniip> libertyprime, there is only one ghc option that uses a double dash
05:22:40 <mniip> everything else is consistently single dash
05:22:58 <mniip> well ok maybe not one
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05:23:31 <mniip> double-dashed options generally tell ghc to do something else other than compile a file
05:23:46 <mniip> be it --help, or --show-iface
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07:10:57 <dminuoso> Mmm, why does inRange have a seemingly flipped argument order?
07:11:19 <dminuoso> This seems more natural to me: 1 `inRange` (1,3)
07:12:08 <opqdonut> maybe it's meant to be partially applied in prefix form
07:12:20 <opqdonut> like `filter (inRange (1,3)) xs`
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07:12:48 <dminuoso> Ah yeah, perhaps.
07:13:43 <Putonlalla> How often the "more constant argument first" convention is violated in Haskell is one of the most annoying things in it for me.
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07:14:44 <Putonlalla> Functions and operators not being distinct language features is one of the reasons it happens so often.
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07:15:29 <dminuoso> Is this realistically a problem? As long as its just two arguments, you can fit it on either side with ticks.
07:15:44 <dminuoso> i.e. filter (`inRange` (1,3))
07:16:41 <Putonlalla> Not in this case, but you usually want `x / y` to be `div y x`, `x == y` to be `eqb y x` and so on...
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07:17:44 <Putonlalla> That and some other unfortunate parts of the syntax is why we have functions like `subtract`.
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07:19:58 <Putonlalla> This problem is compounded in proof assistants, where functions that are structurally recursive on the first parameter only reduce when the head of that particular argument is a constructor. If you violate the "more constant argument first" convention, unfolding becomes much more tedious.
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09:03:10 <rootmolloch> bellman : let l = lambda in lambda = foldr (l) [+,-,*,/]
09:03:26 <rootmolloch> :-)
09:04:10 <Axman6> o.O
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09:07:22 <rootmolloch> http://whats-the-while.de.cool
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09:07:29 <rootmolloch> ??
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09:09:39 <[exa]> phishy.
09:09:49 <Axman6> agreed
09:09:55 <Axman6> @where ops
09:09:55 <lambdabot> byorgey Cale conal copumpkin dcoutts dibblego dolio edwardk geekosaur glguy jmcarthur johnw mniip monochrom quicksilver shachaf shapr ski
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09:16:38 Lycurgus wundert wenn er Richard meint
09:17:21 <dminuoso> Axman6: Who knows, or they used a proper shadyurl tool.
09:17:30 <dminuoso> Imagine, when people asking about monad and you just give them http://www.5z8.info/blackmarket_a1r3qh_stalin
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09:18:08 <Axman6> I should use shadyurl more often
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09:27:40 <biglama> Hi guys, is there a way to convert an ascii code stored in a Data.Text to the corresponding Data.Text, without using Char as an intermediary ?
09:27:58 <biglama> My current solution : T.pack [toEnum (read "65") :: Char]
09:28:24 <dminuoso> biglama: Any particular reason you dislike the Char as intermediary?
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09:29:28 <biglama> dminuoso: I wanted a shorter code :p
09:29:41 <wrunt> biglama: maybe use Data.Text.singleton to go from Char -> Text?
09:30:00 <wrunt> (still uses Char though)
09:30:00 <merijn> That's now what he's doing
09:30:04 <Axman6> @src Char
09:30:04 <lambdabot> data Char = C# Char#
09:30:11 <Axman6> Use Char# =)
09:30:31 <merijn> that doesn't work
09:30:46 <merijn> Pretty sure you can't read Char#
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09:32:54 <biglama> I wanted to do ascii conversion in pure Data.Text but it does not seem possible :(
09:33:14 <dminuoso> biglama: sure it is, just tap into the internals of text..
09:34:33 <dminuoso> Look at the implementation of `singleton`
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09:35:25 <Axman6> There's not going to be much you can do that isn't essentially doing exactly what toEnum . read does though
09:36:53 <dminuoso> Though.. the more I look at text, you'll have to go through `Char`, unless you want to break it up internally so far that you're meddling with the internal MutableByteArray's.
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09:37:12 <dminuoso> At some point you should ask yourself whether that's really worth saving that single roundtrip through Char
09:37:27 <biglama> There is an `ord2` function it Data.Text.Internal.Encoding.Utf8 but it says "Use at your own risk!"
09:37:50 <biglama> dminuoso: That's not super important, I was just curious. Thanks :)
09:38:04 <dminuoso> biglama: The key function to look at is: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/text-1.2.4.1/docs/src/Data.Text.Internal.Unsafe.Char.html#unsafeWrite
09:38:17 <dminuoso> Essentially you'd have to adapt this to work without a Char
09:38:24 <dminuoso> (unsafeWrite)
09:40:11 <biglama> Looks complicated :/
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09:42:14 <biglama> Another question : since Data.Text implements Read, why can't I do :
09:42:14 <biglama> read (T.pack "66") :: Int
09:42:29 <dminuoso> % :t read
09:42:29 <yahb> dminuoso: Read a => String -> a
09:42:46 <dminuoso> biglama: You're thinking of `Read` the wrong way
09:43:09 <dminuoso> The fact that Data.Text implements Read means, we can read a String as Text
09:43:39 <biglama> Oh, I see. So can an Int be read to a Text ? I could not find anything on Hoogle
09:43:47 <dminuoso> That is `show`
09:43:50 <dminuoso> rather
09:43:58 <dminuoso> And no, you have to roundtrip through String
09:44:06 <dminuoso> this sort of accident is an unfortunate one
09:44:19 <dminuoso> Several packages on hackage exist to provide read/show using text instead
09:44:25 <biglama> Ok. I'm trying to use one type of string representation but it's hard to avoid String
09:44:34 <dminuoso> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/text-show
09:44:45 <dminuoso> biglama: Is this user-facing output?
09:44:48 <dminuoso> Or just for debugging
09:45:03 <biglama> Debugging. And a side project :p
09:45:20 <dminuoso> there's several options
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09:45:40 <dminuoso> As a quick drop-in solution, I usually write `showT = T.pack . show`, put it into some Utils module and use it
09:46:16 <dminuoso> Other more elaborate options rely on using prettyprinter rather than text
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09:49:29 <kuribas> biglama: for debugging you shouldn't care
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09:49:52 <biglama> dminuoso: The concept of prettyprinter is interesting
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09:57:13 <biglama> Thanks a lot anyway !
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10:52:09 <tdammers> IME, you usually want an application-specific notion of "stringification" anyway; `show` is really only appropriate for trace debugging IMO
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11:05:08 <xenon-> dminuoso how do they do it, they just convert String to Text? or they create new typeclasses
11:08:08 <boxscape> is there a version of error that takes an instance of Show instead of a String?
11:08:45 <xenon-> I don't think so
11:08:48 <boxscape> ok
11:08:53 <xenon-> @hoogle Show a => a -> b
11:08:54 <lambdabot> Protolude show :: (Show a, ConvertText String b) => a -> b
11:08:54 <lambdabot> SPARC.Base largeOffsetError :: Show a => a -> b
11:08:54 <lambdabot> Intro show :: (Show a, ConvertString String s) => a -> s
11:09:21 <xenon-> @hoogle String -> a
11:09:22 <lambdabot> Text.Printf perror :: String -> a
11:09:22 <lambdabot> GHC.Enum succError :: String -> a
11:09:22 <lambdabot> GHC.Enum predError :: String -> a
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11:09:49 <SoF> % Text.Printf "test"
11:09:49 <yahb> SoF: ; <interactive>:113:1: error:; Not in scope: data constructor `Text.Printf'; No module named `Text' is imported.
11:10:25 <boxscape> % Data.Text.Printf "test"
11:10:26 <yahb> boxscape: ; <interactive>:114:1: error:; Not in scope: data constructor `Data.Text.Printf'; No module named `Data.Text' is imported.
11:10:40 <boxscape> % Data.Text.Printf.perror "test"
11:10:40 <yahb> boxscape: ; <interactive>:115:1: error:; Not in scope: `Data.Text.Printf.perror'; Perhaps you meant `Text.Printf.perror' (imported from Text.Printf); No module named `Data.Text.Printf' is imported.
11:10:42 <boxscape> meh
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11:10:51 <boxscape> I guess that is what I meant
11:11:36 <dminuoso> xenon-: you mean prettyprinter?
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11:18:29 <xenon-> dminuoso, Read/Show that works with Text
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11:22:50 <dminuoso> xenon-: for one direction, there's text-show
11:23:47 <dminuoso> The other direction is, roughly, encapsulated by attoparsec
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11:27:58 <dminuoso> I guess ultimately its not the same thing
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11:28:30 <dminuoso> (and read in generally is a weird thing, if we look at the semantics of deriving generated instances - it doesnt seem that useful)
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11:28:45 <dminuoso> it's rather a poor mans serialization/deserialization format
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14:14:54 <boxscape> I keep thinking the extension is called OverloadedRecordFields instead of DuplicateRecordFields
14:15:10 <boxscape> Duplicate kind of seems to imply 2, maybe it should be n-plicateRecordFields
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14:17:58 <Cale> RamifiedRecordFields, lol
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14:24:19 <willardthor> Hi folks, can any of you help me understand an error that I am getting? (I am still learning) (If this is the wrong place to ask, then let me know, and I'll ask elsewhere). See https://paste.tomsmeding.com/emRl2ySZ . I've created a type class for "types with a default value". Its single operation is `def`, which yields said default value. However,
14:24:19 <willardthor> when I use it when defining functions with a polymorphic type, GHCI cannot figure out which type `def` should be, and it won't let me coerce `def` to the (polymorphic) type that I want it to have. Any ideas?
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14:25:53 <geekosaur> going through this in order, ghci assumes Integer because of defaulting
14:25:53 <Cale> willardthor: What happens if you remove the annotation? Just write def and not def :: v?
14:26:06 <Cale> The problem is that you're not using ScopedTypeVariables, I think
14:26:25 <geekosaur> you'd also need an explicit forall in that case
14:26:44 <geekosaur> basically the scope of v does not extend to the definition, only to the declaration
14:26:48 <Cale> You can do so by adding {-# LANGUAGE ScopedTypeVariables #-} to the top of your file, and adding a forall like thedef :: forall v. Def v => v
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14:27:09 <Cale> and then you'll be able to use v to refer to the actual type that v was bound to, in the definition of thedef
14:27:30 <Cale> Without that extension, type variables only scope over a single type signature
14:27:48 <boxscape> stupid question: Is there a (possibly hacky) way to call local bindings of a function in ghci?
14:27:54 <Cale> So when you say def :: v GHC has no way of knowing that it's the same v
14:28:03 <Cale> boxscape: nope
14:28:04 <geekosaur> boxscape, no
14:28:06 <boxscape> okay
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14:28:21 <Cale> Well, maybe *really* hacky
14:28:44 <Cale> If you happened to know where GHC put them in memory (and they hadn't been inlined)
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14:28:56 <boxscape> heh okay that sounds fragile
14:28:59 <Cale> But that's not going to be easy at all
14:29:02 <Cale> yeah
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14:32:02 <willardthor> Thank you for the responses so far. @Cale What happens if you remove the annotation? : As evidenced by `Example0.hs` vs. `Example1.hs`, removing the `:: v` produces a type error. @Cale You're not using ScopedTypeVariables : I'll look into this; thanks for the tip!
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14:34:25 <boxscape> does the star in `:m *<modulename>` simply mean that non-exported bindings can be used or does it also mean that the module is forced to be loaded interpreted instead of compiled?
14:34:28 <boxscape> (in ghci)
14:35:06 <willardthor> geekosaur "The scope of v does not extend to the definition, only to the declaration" : Can you clarify? Is the fact that I coerced at the right-hand-side of '=' not taken into account when typing the whole function definition?
14:35:36 <Cale> willardthor: oh, I see, yeah, you didn't have the type error in Example0.hs
14:35:48 <Cale> It seems like removing it fixes the problem?
14:36:07 <Cale> willardthor: It's just that it's not the same v
14:36:20 <Cale> willardthor: So it's as though you'd written thedef :: w there
14:36:44 <Cale> and then GHC doesn't know that w is supposed to be equal to the v from the type signature for the function
14:37:09 <Cale> (or definition, rather)
14:37:27 <boxscape> % :m + *Data.Monoid
14:37:27 <yahb> boxscape: module 'Data.Monoid' is from another package;; this command requires an interpreted module
14:37:33 <boxscape> I suppose that answers my question
14:37:38 <willardthor> Cale "Removing it fixes the problem": Yeah, but I kind of need it later :-P  (Unless there's another way to do what I am trying to, of course). I'm writing a polymorphic function, where the only thing I know about the input type, is that it's a member of `Def` . I would then like to obtain the default value of the input type, in the function
14:37:39 <willardthor> body.
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14:38:33 <willardthor> Cale "It's just that it's not the same v" : That's what GHCI is saying, and that's what I'm not getting. Why is it not the same, or how do I make clear that it's the same?
14:38:49 <geekosaur> you use ScopedTypeZVZariables
14:38:51 <geekosaur> er
14:38:58 <geekosaur> you use ScopedTypeVariables
14:39:01 <Cale> willardthor: Without turning on extensions, type variables never scope over anything larger than a single type signature
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14:40:48 <Cale> So yeah, you have to turn on ScopedTypeVariables if you want to be able to refer to the same v
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14:41:13 <Cale> I don't think there's another way, apart from doing trickery that would complicate the type of def
14:41:35 <willardthor> Cale geekosaur I just tried turning on `ScopedTypeVariables` (adding `{-# LANGUAGE ScopedTypeVariables #-}` to the start of `Example1.hs` and `Example2.hs` ), without success; the same errors get reported.
14:42:06 <Cale> Yep, to use ScopedTypeVariables, you have to explicitly bind the variables using forall
14:42:18 <willardthor> ... ah. Let me do that real quick.
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14:46:21 <willardthor> Cale geekosaur I added `forall v .` at the start of the type declaration of `thedef` . This fixes the problem in `Example1.hs` . I did the same in `Example2.hs` , yet the problem remains there.
14:47:17 <Cale> Did you also add a signature to clarify the type of the usage of def?
14:47:24 <willardthor> waitwait, I then coerced the `def` and /that/ worked
14:47:29 <Cale> yep
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14:47:34 <willardthor> :-)  Thanks guys
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14:48:29 <romesrf> hey everyone, if I do a StateT Maybe monad, and return (Element) normally, how can I lift the StateT to return Nothing instead of a Just something ?
14:49:21 <[exa]> romesrf: how did the Maybe get there?
14:49:30 <[exa]> ah sorry I can't read
14:49:43 <romesrf> perhaps i should make a small example, but i thought it might be a common issue
14:50:01 <[exa]> for returning nothing I'd just try failing, e.g. with `empty`
14:50:01 <romesrf> some function has type Something -> StateT SomeState Maybe Something
14:50:13 <[exa]> (possibly: lift empty)
14:50:19 <romesrf> Oh! Okay, i'll try that.
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14:51:08 <[exa]> :t lift empty
14:51:09 <lambdabot> (MonadTrans t, Monad m, Alternative m) => t m a
14:51:47 <[exa]> looks okay to me with t~StateT, m~Maybe
14:52:23 <Cale> empty or mempty on its own ought to be fine
14:52:32 <Cale> er
14:52:39 <[exa]> can StateT carry that?
14:52:45 <Cale> Actually, not sure about mempty, I mean mzero
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14:53:13 <[exa]> ah cool it has MonadFail
14:53:51 <Cale> Oh yeah, you could also use fail I suppose
14:54:52 <romesrf> i think just empty might work. at least the type system is fine with it ;)
14:55:04 <romesrf> i'll let you know soon. ty
14:55:35 [exa] stares at the Alternative (StateT s m) marked [safe], cool
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14:57:10 <willardthor> Cale geekosaur (so that I learn from this) : How come `ScopedTypeVariables` is needed? I thought that this was the default behavior in Haskell. That is: That a polymorphic function's type declaration (e.g. type of `thedef` ) binds all occurrences of polymorphic types (e.g. `v` ) that it mentions, such that any occurrence of those bound types (e.g.
14:57:10 <willardthor> `v` ) within the body of the function definition, refers to that binder (unless bound more locally). (It's reasonable of GHCI to consider that `v` could be bound to something else more locally; it's dumb that it can't see that it isn't)
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14:57:15 <[exa]> noticing many more instances have [safe] now, I should probably upgrade ghc much more often. :D
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14:58:07 <Cale> Nope, that's just not how it works. Type variables are only meaningful in the single type that's using them and don't carry over into other type signatures
14:58:24 <geekosaur> it's not the default behavior but enough people expect it that the ScopedTypeVariables extension was created
14:59:41 <Cale> Though what might be nicer than ScopedTypeVariables is being able to explicitly bind the applied type variables at the term level. Eventually that'll probably be a feature of TypeApplications, but it doesn't yet work
15:00:41 <Cale> e.g. to be able to write prettydef @t v = pretty v <+> pretty (def @t)
15:00:46 <willardthor> Cale "Only meaningful": I see; and the coercion is then a separate type signature (where an occurrence e.g. to `v` is considered a different/fresh `v` ).
15:01:02 <Cale> yeah
15:01:22 <Cale> So it's exactly the same as if you'd written any other variable name there
15:01:22 <willardthor> geekosaur This is now one of my new favorite extensions:)
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15:03:05 <qwerty2o> hi im trying to creat a splitOn function
15:03:10 <qwerty2o> i got this so far
15:03:11 <qwerty2o> https://dpaste.org/ezmS#L1,3
15:03:26 <qwerty2o> but now i want to split by two or more delimiters
15:03:42 <qwerty2o> is there an option to give break a second delimiter?
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15:03:59 <qwerty2o> like break (== del1 || == del2)
15:04:02 <qwerty2o> something like that
15:04:29 <qwerty2o> or if i could go by a list or delimiters that'd be even better
15:04:38 <willardthor> Cale `TypeApplications` : nice, that would bring Haskell even closer to dependently-typed programming.
15:05:11 <Cale> qwerty2o: (\x -> x == del1 || x == del2) or (\x -> x `elem` [del1, del2]) or (`elem` [del1, del2])
15:05:39 <Cale> willardthor: Yeah, to be clear, TypeApplications exists, just there's no pattern matching bit
15:05:53 <Cale> So you still need to use ScopedTypeVariables with it usually
15:06:03 <willardthor> Cale gotcha (y)
15:07:06 <qwerty2o> Cale, thank you sir
15:07:15 <qwerty2o> didnt think about elem lol
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15:09:18 <[exa]> qwerty2o: overly applicative solution: `liftA2 (||) (==del1) (==del2)`
15:10:05 <qwerty2o> thats nice but i actually need a string of delimiters
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15:10:21 <qwerty2o> so the (`elem` delims was the solution)
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15:24:10 <romesrf> it worked [exa] ty :)
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15:37:39 <boxscape> https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/discussions/424
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15:37:52 <boxscape> thinking about calling local bindings from ghci
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15:38:28 <merijn> How does that work when they use captures
15:39:19 <boxscape> merijn One could imagine only allowing bindings without free variables. Though I can imagine captures working as well, see second-to-last point in the link
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15:41:46 <geekosaur> don't wheres desugar to lets? that would complicate distinguishing the two
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15:41:59 <boxscape> hmm, interesting point
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18:20:54 <tomjaguarpaw> c
18:21:01 <tomjaguarpaw> s/c//
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18:58:31 <cdsmith> I've thought about similar things in the past. My thoughts were more ambitious: I wanted to be able to select an arbitrary subexpression anywhere in a file and get its value. And I wanted to turn captured variables into implicit lambdas. I've tried to advocate for something like this using a GHC plugin in the past. It's been mostly dismissed by anyone I discussed it with.
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18:59:29 <geekosaur> tbh it sounds more like the province of haskell-language-server these days
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19:00:00 <geekosaur> having ghc do it would be conflating compile time with run time
19:00:07 <cdsmith> Yeah, it would definitely fit in well there. I was looking for it for CodeWorld, which is another Haskell development environment
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19:00:57 <cdsmith> I'm not sure HLS could do something like that without some help from GHC
19:01:48 <geekosaur> hm. I think the emacs mode can already send an arbitrary selected expression to an inferior ghci to be evaluated, with some limitations
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19:03:03 <cdsmith> Ah, yes. There's a subtle difference, though, between "what does the text of this selection evaluate to as a top-level expression?" and "what does this subexpression evaluate to in context?" The first is a rather rough approximation of the second
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19:05:58 <cdsmith> This discussion about accessing let-bound definitions is a perfect example of the limitations of the first approach by itself
19:07:11 <dolio> Some subexpressions aren't going to have any well defined value according to the normal mode of evaluation that GHC/Haskell uses.
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19:09:33 <cdsmith> dolio: I'm curious what you mean here. Example?
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19:11:50 <dolio> f x = ... where y = 2 + 3 + x
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19:12:12 <dolio> `2 + 3 + x` has no well defined value.
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19:12:27 <dolio> None of GHC's runtimes evaluate open terms.
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19:14:20 <cdsmith> Sure. Free variables would need to be lifted into something like lambdas.
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20:12:05 <dminuoso> dolio: What is an open term? A term free variables?
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20:13:08 <dolio> Yes.
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22:00:06 <refried_> Hi there... is there a way I can register an IO action to be run on process exit?
22:00:17 <refried_> googling and hoogling hasn't gotten me anywhere
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22:02:47 <boxscape> refried_ depending on your situation you might be able to use forkFinally to achieve something similar?
22:03:03 <monochrom> I wouldn't think "register hook". I would think "try ... finally", in which case there is "finally" in Control.Exception
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22:03:55 <refried_> boxscape thanks i'll check it out.  monochrom this is for debugging so don't want to change much with the application
22:04:10 <monochrom> Then again, given "finally", you can now code up your own registry.
22:05:51 <refried_> monochrom hmm I see
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23:36:36 <Evilmagix> I have started reading Bird's "Pearls of functional algorithm design" and in the first chapter he seems to state that us \\ vs is O(n) rather than what I assume is O(n^2). Hackage doesnt have anything on the time complexity of (\\), does anyone know if he is right? Only the left list is sorted in his example but I cant imagine the (\\) uses
23:36:37 <Evilmagix> indexing.
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23:41:02 <monochrom> head (us \\ vs) ≠ us \\ vs
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23:51:12 <mniip> is \\ list subtraction?
23:51:19 <mniip> you can never know with bird's formalism
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All times are in UTC on 2021-05-17.