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Logs on 2021-05-20 (freenode/#haskell)

00:00:11 × tromp quits (~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
00:00:24 <heebo> hello , i have a cabal.project file with multiple ```package: ``` declarations. However I cannot reference them from my Main.hs that sits at the top level
00:00:25 <heebo> ls
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00:00:51 <dmwit> Does your whatever.cabal list them in its build-depends stanza?
00:01:04 <dmwit> (field? I've never quite gotten the hang of cabal jargon.)
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00:02:18 <heebo> i believe so
00:02:32 <dmwit> Okay. It's probably time to cook up a minimal reproducing example for us, then.
00:03:00 <heebo> sure
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00:10:47 <heebo> https://www.codepile.net/pile/rLoveZVj
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00:11:04 <heebo> ok its not minimal its basically my cabal.project file
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00:11:48 <heebo> in that project I would like to have a Main.hs such that i can import Language.Plutus.Contract
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00:18:23 <dmwit> Yeah ok, I'm not reading 150 lines of cabal.project.
00:18:47 <dmwit> Not to mention that it doesn't have the rest of what we would need to reproduce it anyway, like the cabal file and the Main.hs.
00:19:58 <heebo> lol, ok fair enough. If I can figure out a minimal example i will post another time, thanks anyway
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00:22:26 <a6a45081-2b83> why does he say: but if you write these functions merely by blindly following the types, it doesn’t count
00:22:41 ← dale parts (dale@unaffiliated/dale) ()
00:23:00 <monochrom> Perhaps ask the author?
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00:23:37 <dmwit> Well, I've implemented the Monad instance for Cont at least four times and I still have no idea what it does, because the types make it so blindingly obvious what the implementation has to be that no part of the code actually has to pass through my conscious brain.
00:23:57 <dmwit> If I saw a sentence like what you quote there, I would guess it's to try to head off that problem before it happens.
00:24:14 <monochrom> I don't consider it a problem.
00:24:34 <monochrom> If you will never understand the code, that's a problem.
00:24:38 <geekosaur> it's from "lens over tea"
00:24:44 <dmwit> If you can write code that you understand, and that also type checks, that's a win. If you write code because of what the type checker says, but which you can't understand, well... that's not a good outcome if your plan is to learn what the code does. ^_^
00:25:07 <monochrom> But between "understanding" and "work mechanically", there is no set order.
00:25:42 <monochrom> And truly, for some problems, it is actually better to work mechanically first, "understand" later.
00:26:10 <dmwit> Yes. I think I am on board with all you say, monochrom. I also think I am accurately presenting the answer to "why does he say X?".
00:26:21 <monochrom> Especially with most people's subjective, unobjective definition of "understand" = feel so good about yourself and can write an essay, but no predictive power.
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00:27:12 <heebo> do we care what the code does? doesnt the curry howard isomorphism *prove* that it works?
00:27:39 <geekosaur> it proves that it does something. whether that something is what is intended is another question
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00:28:04 <heebo> the types make sure its intended surely
00:28:05 <monochrom> I met a prof who was disillusioned by curry-howard.
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00:28:25 <geekosaur> \x -> x + 2, the types don't help if what was intended was x * 2
00:28:27 <monochrom> "We didn't know what we proved but oh boy was it correct."
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00:30:02 <heebo> i actually agree , but im playing devils advocate
00:30:17 <a6a45081-2b83> so for e.g. I am trying to implement _1 I shouldn't look at _1 :: Lens (a,x) (b,x) a b or not at _1 :: Functor f => (a -> f b) -> (a, x) -> f (b, x) or neither
00:30:34 <monochrom> I care what the code does iff I am not doing proof erasure.
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00:31:01 <monochrom> Like, I actually run the code.
00:31:44 <heebo> i often find , i follow the types first, then look at the code to understand that its correct
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00:32:42 <a6a45081-2b83> so here I should be thinking along the lines of _1 takes a modifier and applies it to the first element inside a functor?
00:32:46 <a6a45081-2b83> and then implement it?
00:32:47 <dmwit> a6a45081-2b83: I think looking at `_1 :: Lens (a, x) (b, x) a b` is fine. The exercise is probably asking you not to look too hard at `_1 :: Functor f => (a -> f b) -> (a, x) -> f (b, x)` .
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00:33:28 <dmwit> a6a45081-2b83: Or rather: it is asking you not to write your implementation *only* by looking at `_1 :: Functor f => (a -> f b) -> (a, x) -> f (b, x)`.
00:33:43 <dmwit> If you look at that and something else, too, you're winning.
00:34:53 <a6a45081-2b83> got it
00:35:44 <heebo> adit.io lens in pictures was my best reference for understanding lens , https://adit.io/posts/2013-07-22-lenses-in-pictures.html its kinda for kids though i suppose
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00:43:49 <a6a45081-2b83> so for lens, I wrote this: lens get set f s = do { let v = get s; b <- f v; let t = set s b; return t }
00:44:06 <a6a45081-2b83> should be right? but it's for Monad f not Functor f
00:44:34 <a6a45081-2b83> feels like i'm writing imperitive style :-)
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00:46:28 <a6a45081-2b83> heebo: that is really helpful
00:48:04 <Axman6> a6a45081-2b83: well, you know f in the tpoye is a Functor right? So what does that mean you can do with it?
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00:48:19 <Axman6> what do we know about functors?
00:48:45 <a6a45081-2b83> lens get set f s = fmap set s . get s ?
00:48:58 <a6a45081-2b83> maybe fmap (set s) $ get s
00:49:09 <Axman6> what happened to f?
00:49:18 <a6a45081-2b83> maybe fmap (set s) $ f (get s)
00:49:29 <Axman6> does that type check?
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00:50:09 <a6a45081-2b83> well it does, :)) , thanks!
00:50:26 <Axman6> I'm pretty dumb, can you explain to me what's happening there?
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00:50:49 <Axman6> what _ai_ f? s?
00:50:54 <Axman6> _is_*
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00:52:31 <a6a45081-2b83> :t lens get set f s = fmap (set s) $ f (get s)
00:52:32 <lambdabot> error: parse error on input ‘=’
00:52:51 <a6a45081-2b83> :t lens = \get set f s -> fmap (set s) $ f (get s)
00:52:51 <lambdabot> error: parse error on input ‘=’
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00:53:03 <a6a45081-2b83> :t \get set f s -> fmap (set s) $ f (get s)
00:53:04 <lambdabot> Functor f => (t1 -> t2) -> (t1 -> a -> b) -> (t2 -> f a) -> t1 -> f b
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00:53:43 <a6a45081-2b83> getter is t1 -> t2; setter is t1 -> a -> b; lens modifier is t2 -> f a; initial value is t1; final functor value is f b
00:53:47 <a6a45081-2b83> is that right?
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00:54:51 <Axman6> (Sorry, in a quick meeting, brb 5 min)
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00:57:04 <penttrioctium> Does anyone have experience with `gi-gtk-declarative`, or maybe just `gi-gtk`? I'm just starting out trying to do GUIs and whatnot in Haskell.
00:57:05 <penttrioctium> If I have an SVG image as a String, how do I convert it to an Image widget so I can put it in a window?
00:57:05 <penttrioctium> (I tried setting up a temporary file to write to and read from, which almost works, but when the file changes the image doesn't.)
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01:06:16 <sm[m]> mniip: https://mniip.com/freenode.txt is great, the first one I've seen describing the data involved. Thanks to you and the any other ops still here for your service
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01:15:36 <Axman6> a6a45081-2b83: looks about right
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01:46:23 <dmwit> a6a45081-2b83: You might find this interesting, some Monad laws: `m >>= return . f = fmap f m`. Starting from your definition, `do { let v = get s; b <- f v; let t = set s b; return t }`, if we desugar (inline let's and turn the `<-` into a `>>=`), we get `f (get s) >>= \b -> return (set s b)`. So the monad law turns that into `fmap (set s) (f (get s))`.
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01:46:42 <dmwit> a6a45081-2b83: So your `Monad`-answer was actually right, you just spelled it in a way that required Monad instead of Functor.
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01:49:56 <a6a45081-2b83> dmwit: got it
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02:18:09 <dmwit> penttrioctium: Do you know how you would do it in, say, C?
02:18:23 <dmwit> Usually if you can work that out, the gi-gtk equivalent is pretty straightforward to cook up.
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02:28:23 <penttrioctium> @dmwit: No, I have no clue how to do it in C, I'm really just starting out here, sorry. (Plus, I'm trying to use the more functional, declarative style of "gi-gtk-declarative" if I can, which I think would make the translation messier anyway.)
02:28:23 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
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02:31:21 <penttrioctium> I think what I really need here is for a Gtk Image made from a file to update when the file updates, which doesn't sound like it should be hard but I'm not having any luck yet
02:31:23 <dmwit> Okay. Well, I think I'd probably start here and see where it got me. http://hackage.haskell.org/package/gi-gdkpixbuf-2.0.26/docs/GI-GdkPixbuf-Objects-Pixbuf.html#v:pixbufNewFromFile
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02:43:36 <zzz> i just spent the last 2 hours reading about andrew
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02:44:16 <Axman6> PRaise be to our glorious new leader?
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02:44:59 <zzz> fuck me. wasnt the whole point of irc to be decentrlized?
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02:45:25 <Axman6> haven't you read? He wasn't it to be decentralised, under his control! it's so simple
02:45:31 <Axman6> wants*
02:45:40 <zzz> right. are we staying here or migrating to libera?
02:45:51 <Axman6> lots of us have migrated already
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02:46:27 <zzz> ok. someone registered my nick already...
02:46:32 zzz frowns
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02:47:54 <zzz> the only thing worse than naming variables
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03:23:18 <zarakshR> Hello guys, does anyone know why "[ x | (x <- [0,2..10]) ]" returns an error while "[ x | x <- [0,2..10] ]" is processed just fine by the interpreter? I am guessing it's because "x <- [0,2..10]" is meaningless by itself, but I thought that '(' and ')' were only used for grouping things and did not affect semantics in any way. Can someone tell me what I'm getting wrong?
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03:24:24 <ski> brackets can't be wrapped around any kinds of cohesive syntactic phrases
03:24:25 <a6a45081-2b83> I guess that is because of list comprehension syntax ?
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03:24:38 <int-e> > [x | (x) <- ([0,2..10])]
03:24:40 <lambdabot> [0,2,4,6,8,10]
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03:25:17 <int-e> Yes, the <- is part of the list comprehension syntax. The () are part of the pattern and expression (and type) syntax[plural?].
03:25:57 <int-e> > let (x = 4) in x -- invalid as well, for similar reasons
03:25:58 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:8: error: parse error on input ‘=’
03:26:02 <ski> you can wrap (value) expressions and patterns, type expressions (and patterns). you can't wrap generators in list comprehensions, nor pattern guards, or bind commands in `do'-notation
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03:27:32 <a6a45081-2b83> is there a way for syntax highlighting in ghci or printing nested structures indented in ghci?
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03:29:55 <zarakshR> So "[ x | (x <- [0,2..10]) ]" is basically interpreted as "x such that x is in the output of the command 'x <- [0,2..10]' " and that is an error since "<-" only has meaning in the context of a list conprehension right?
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03:32:54 <zzz> zarakshR: it's also part of the syntax on some other places with some language extensions
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03:33:23 <zzz> the "<-" i mean
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03:33:55 <zzz> and in pattern guards
03:34:55 <zzz> https://wiki.haskell.org/Pattern_guard
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03:35:59 <zzz> PatternSynonyms would be an example of a language extension that also introduces "<-" in a new context
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03:36:56 <zzz> and do notation, of course
03:39:40 <ski> zarakshR1 : it's interpreted as a syntax error
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04:04:10 <monochrom> The grammar is "[ expr | pat <- expr ]" and doesn't consider "pat <- expr" to be something you can parenthesize.
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04:07:05 <monochrom> There are a lot of places where "(foo) means foo" is wrong.
04:08:13 <monochrom> "import Data.List((sort))" is wrong.
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04:35:46 <quackyhapp> hi, can you please update the topic to the new server
04:35:57 <quackyhapp> you're like the only channel left who haven't updated your topic
04:38:48 <mouse> yeah
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04:38:56 <mouse> i'm here because i read reddit and #haskell was the first channel
04:39:14 <mouse> and i wanted to see
04:39:35 <mouse> (haskell is a pretty sweet lang anyway, but fuck fleanode)
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04:41:44 <nshepperd2> shapr: ^^ ?
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05:36:08 <edwardk> this is now the last channel i'm in on freenode. it's eerie. i'm used to being in like 40 channels.
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05:37:12 <mniip> I used to be in 150
05:38:02 <quackyhapp> I'm only here temporary as well.. just haven't had the time to migrate and the new server seems overflooded at the moment, hard to connect.
05:38:23 <quackyhapp> plus, I'm trying to move all my friends over too.
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05:40:18 <mouse> there's a path you take, and a path untaken.
05:40:22 <mouse> the choice is up to you, my friend.
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05:46:45 <Uniaika> see you on the other side
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05:58:52 <Zy64Jw> how to write this query in persistence?: select ?? from table where updated_time >= date('now', '-6 days')
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06:19:34 <dsal> Can someone put where everyone's going in the topic?
06:19:39 <tomjaguarpaw> 06:40 < mouse> there's a path you take, and a path untaken.
06:19:44 <tomjaguarpaw> Not in the LogicT monad
06:19:57 <tomjaguarpaw> It would be great if the server change could go in the topic
06:20:11 <tomjaguarpaw> otherwise people will keep coming here and get confused
06:20:34 <dsal> I've been here for a while, but I have an absurd number of hobbies, so I don't notice some changes.
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06:22:12 <pavonia> dsal: The new network is at irc.libera.chat
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06:24:07 <dsal> Cool, thanks. I'm in a lot of channels... I wonder how many of these I care about...
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06:26:05 ChanServ sets topic to "there's now irc.libera.chat #haskell too | https://www.haskell.org | https://wiki.haskell.org/IRC_channel | Paste code/errors: https://paste.tomsmeding.com | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/haskell/?C=M;O=D | https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell | Admin: #haskell-ops | Offtopic: #haskell-offtopic | https://downloads.haskell.org"
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06:27:19 <edwardk> tomjaguarpaw: i just posted it in the topic, not with a lot of 'go there now!' energy, because nothing is super-officially decided, but frankly there's no real ircops left on this server, so maybe i should be more forceful and unilateral. *shrug*
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10:43:48 <tomjaguarpaw> edwardk++ Looks like all the activity has shifted over
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12:07:05 <EvanR> indeed I am confused
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12:12:51 <merijn> By what?
12:12:54 <merijn> Or just in general?
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12:13:20 <merijn> Because I can relate to the second :p
12:13:25 <EvanR> yeah I screen -r'd in the ask a question about cosmic background radiation and i just see people directing people to another server
12:13:35 <EvanR> toask* man it's early
12:14:22 <EvanR> ggVGc: Walt, hope we meet again on some remote IRC asteroid my man xD
12:14:24 <merijn> EvanR: freenode is (in the process off? it's unclear) hostile take-over by venture capital profiteers, yay!
12:14:49 <EvanR> :\
12:15:14 <merijn> EvanR: Bunch of staff has resigned and started a new non-profit and service, people are trying to preemptively prep the ground there if freenode indeed gets ruined permanently
12:15:24 <merijn> EvanR: See https://mniip.com/freenode.txt
12:15:53 <EvanR> i had assumed there was some non-profit this whole time (uhm, 20 years of time?) and even tried to do some big donations. And they refused to take my money
12:15:56 <tdammers> I think the "preemptive prepping" has turned into an exodus by now
12:16:58 <EvanR> merijn: nice
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12:17:27 <merijn> EvanR: Well, there isn't an organisation at all. An organisation was made for a conference, but they don't own freenode. Except they're now threatening lawyers saying they do and have access to the domain (or trying to get it?)
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12:18:26 <EvanR> who is they again?
12:18:48 <EvanR> sorry this must be reiterating for the 1000th time
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12:19:05 <EvanR> how about: how long has this been brewing?
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12:20:34 <merijn> EvanR: Eh...1.5 day?
12:20:52 <merijn> EvanR: Anyway, mniip's resignation I linked has a better summary anyway
12:21:01 <merijn> Well
12:21:06 <merijn> 1.5day *publically*
12:21:14 <merijn> Possibly longer among staff
12:21:17 <EvanR> man, I know how to time it
12:21:58 <merijn> Yesterday was...confusing and messy :p
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12:23:46 <EvanR> ok uh *begins tooling around with irssi* I haven't been to another server in many years
12:24:34 <EvanR> need to check some channels
12:24:35 <merijn> EvanR: You right now: https://i.imgflip.com/4ijaty.png ;)
12:24:57 <EvanR> ^
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12:33:18 <EvanR> merijn: sorry if this isn't obvious from the resignation but... do I have a NickServ account on libera with the same pass?
12:33:35 <merijn> No, gotta make a new one
12:33:38 <opqdonut> no, you need to reregister
12:34:23 <leah2> also dont reuse passwords
12:34:44 <EvanR> it says my nick is registered...
12:35:01 <EvanR> yeah i do not
12:35:03 <leah2> then some other EvanR was quicker...
12:35:14 <leah2> use /msg nickserv info EvanR to see details
12:35:15 <EvanR> that's cool i guess, this nick sucks anyway xD
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12:36:06 <EvanR> registered 4 hours ago
12:36:26 <kline> if you go to #libera there they might be able to help
12:37:04 <merijn> Someone has botted name registration, you can contact staff to help
12:37:32 <__monty__> I wonder how many people are jumping at the opportunity to claim the nick they always wanted.
12:37:43 <EvanR> lol yeah
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12:46:00 <int-e> __monty__: why stop at one nick? (it does seem to be a bit of an issue)
12:46:57 <joeyh> merijn: botted all the names?
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12:47:36 <merijn> joeyh: Earlier today there was a discussion of a bot registering all listed nicks on freenode
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12:50:07 <EvanR> but apparently not completing the registration process
12:50:49 <joeyh> huh. they could have a pair of bots that cross-verifies freenode nicks
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12:51:04 <joeyh> (I mean, the admins)
12:51:33 <Taneb> joeyh: I could imagine there's legal issues they want to avoid with being too close to "we are Freenode's successor"
12:51:59 <Taneb> Rather than a separate network that happens to be run by the people who previously staffed freenode
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12:57:01 <EvanR> i registered my nick and asked my question about cosmic microwave background radiation. Now I can go get my coffee
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13:02:36 <a6a45081-2b83> basic question but any idea how to install containers? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/b5nP95nM. AFAIK 0.6.2.1 builds fine with lts-17.12
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13:03:21 <tomsmeding> a6a45081-2b83: have you 'cabal update'd?
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13:04:01 <merijn> a6a45081-2b83: You almost certainly don't want "install --lib"
13:04:38 <merijn> You should consider "--lib" in alpha/beta stages >.>
13:04:41 <a6a45081-2b83> tried again (last one was wrong version): https://paste.tomsmeding.com/iVKJf2gK
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13:05:20 <a6a45081-2b83> actually it works without lib but I don't think containers has any executables
13:05:30 <merijn> a6a45081-2b83: Let's rewind
13:05:38 <merijn> a6a45081-2b83: Why are you installing containers?
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13:06:38 <a6a45081-2b83> writing a script -> HashMap -> unordered-containers (install failing) -> containers (install failing)
13:07:11 <merijn> a6a45081-2b83: Right, but you probably just want a cabal file for your script
13:07:30 <merijn> a6a45081-2b83: Or embed the cabal info in the script as a shebang
13:07:35 <tomsmeding> https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-commands.html?highlight=script#cabal-v2-run
13:07:37 <a6a45081-2b83> you mean setting up a cabal project?
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13:08:35 <a6a45081-2b83> actually getting "could not load module data.hashmap" in hls in vscode so to resolve those i thought i should install the package unordered-containers
13:08:39 <merijn> I mean, if you wanna call "add a .cabal file" as "setting up a project", then I guess so :p You can embed it in the file for v2-run, though
13:09:31 <a6a45081-2b83> latter is better
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17:03:31 × ransom quits (~c4264035@70-59-14-200.hlrn.qwest.net) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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17:14:32 → ransom joins (~c4264035@70-59-14-200.hlrn.qwest.net)
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17:16:20 <mouse> Taneb: considering the guy who owns freenode now also stole mtgox bitcoin, i'd say yeah
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19:04:14 <kilolympus> @pl f a b c d e f g = g a b c d e f g
19:04:15 <lambdabot> f = flip flip id . ((flip . ((flip . ((flip . ((flip . (ap .) . flip) .) . flip) .) . flip) .) . flip) .) . flip . flip id
19:04:20 <kilolympus> Is this not just f = g?
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19:05:20 <EvanR> nope
19:05:48 <EvanR> g is used twice on the RHS
19:06:18 <kilolympus> oh shoot
19:06:28 <kilolympus> That's entirely my bad then, whoops!
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19:06:43 <EvanR> @pl f a b c d e f g = h a b c d e f g
19:06:43 <lambdabot> f = h
19:07:03 <kilolympus> ah
19:07:05 <kilolympus> beautiful
19:07:46 <kilolympus> @pl f a b c d e f g = h a b c d e f g >>= monadicFunc
19:07:47 <lambdabot> f = flip flip monadicFunc . ((flip . ((flip . ((flip . ((flip . ((flip . ((>>=) .)) .)) .)) .)) .)) .) . h
19:08:33 <kilolympus> Alas, it didn't help very much in a monadic context :(
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19:08:57 <guriya> f = flip flip monadicFunc . ((flip . ((flip . ((flip . ((flip . ((flip . ((>>=) .)) .)) .)) .)) .)) .) . h
19:09:00 <guriya> what is that
19:09:21 <guriya> flip flip coin
19:09:41 <EvanR> :t monadicFunc
19:09:42 <lambdabot> error: Variable not in scope: monadicFunc
19:09:45 <kilolympus> a failed attempt at making a monadic chain point-free :(
19:10:12 <EvanR> oh
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19:19:34 <kilolympus> Holddd on
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19:19:50 <kilolympus> @pl f = monadicFunc <$> h
19:19:51 <lambdabot> f = monadicFunc <$> h
19:19:58 <kilolympus> is a valid point-free replacement, innit?
19:20:16 <kilolympus> oh wait no, it returns the wrong type
19:22:39 <EvanR> whats a monadicFunc, like a -> m b ?
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19:36:28 <kilolympus> yeah EvanR
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22:14:03 <ggVGc> EvanR: I've been out of the loop of the recent freenode activities... Are you leaving freenode? I'm not sure what's going on yet
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22:17:00 <monochrom> The front page of https://libera.chat/ has the explanation from the people who leave.
22:17:07 <ggVGc> ah, I have read up a bit now... that's a bit, crap..
22:17:37 <monochrom> And the front page of https://freenode.net/ has the explanation from the people who take over freenode.
22:18:34 <monochrom> I'm going to be on both. But what worries most people is that Lee will have access to your email address if you stay (if you use that email address to register your nick)
22:19:06 <monochrom> and hashed password too but that should be fine if you use different passwords for different accounts.
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22:21:25 <mniip> it looks like you can't change your email address anymore...
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22:26:36 <wroathe> Has #haskell come to any conclusions on this yet? One of the staffers that left indicated that it was "definitely" moving, but the topic doesn't feel definite to me.
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22:27:47 <__monty__> wroathe: Are you sure? Staffers look like they've been staying out of such discussions to avoid accusations of stealing users or whatever.
22:27:56 <wroathe> Some channels here have been taking the stance that if enough people were to vote with their feet, that they'd have to move, but I think a large portion of us come to this network because the documentation for the languages or frameworks we used pointed us to freenode as the "official" home for the channel for that thing. It really is up to the ops and big players who maintain that kind of documentation
22:28:02 <wroathe> to make the decision.
22:28:11 <wroathe> __monty__: I'm sure. They've been more vocal in ##c.
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22:28:41 <hpc> fwiw, libera #haskell has had more activity today than here
22:28:43 <__monty__> About #haskell?
22:28:47 <hpc> especially if you subtract meta stuff
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22:29:59 <mniip> I think we're waiting on HF/haskell.org to make the move
22:30:01 <wroathe> __monty__: Indeed. They indicated that channels they're involved in were "definitely" moving, and Haskell was on the list. I pointed out that the topic didn't seem definite, and the person walked back their statement to say that the powers that be here were "finalizing"
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22:30:30 <mniip> there is a channel on the other side though, operated by the same people
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22:30:59 <wroathe> Yup. We're in a state right now where most channels seem to have one foot in both camps, and are loath to make a finale decision.
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22:31:06 <wroathe> final*
22:31:13 <mniip> some channels have put both feet down
22:31:44 monochrom likes stomping on both feet and demanding candies :)
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22:31:45 <__monty__> I think the main reason channels are still on freenode is not to abandon people who aren't in the loop yet.
22:31:57 <__monty__> All the documentation that still points to freenode and such.
22:31:58 <mniip> that's why I'm here
22:32:06 <__monty__> Not indecisiveness about moving.
22:32:26 <wroathe> __monty__: Well, I can think of two popular channels that have channels on Libera but 1. Haven't made a final decision and 2. Haven't even engaged their regulars yet on the possibility of moving
22:33:26 <__monty__> I didn't say there weren't any that hadn't decided yet. Just that I don't think it's accurate to say most.
22:33:26 <wroathe> I just had a conversation with one of the ops in one of those channels where they seemed to think they could not take a stance by taking the stance that if enough people vote with their feet that they would move, and that engaging their regulars about it wasn't scalable (both of which are nonsense)
22:34:13 <wroathe> __monty__: Fair. So far the four channels I keep open in my IRC client haven't made a final decision yet, but it could be that I'm just not in the channels that are moving en masse.
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22:35:22 <__monty__> This is one of the channels that seems to have voted with their feet : )
22:36:07 <wroathe> Mayhaps
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22:39:14 <ggVGc> j #elixir
22:39:18 <ggVGc> haha, damn
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22:52:20 <Andriamanitra> why doesn't the latter way work / is there a working way to write code that reads left to right? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/BtOSHWNC
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22:53:27 <Andriamanitra> i probably still don't quite get what . is doing
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22:56:28 <geekosaur> you may also need right associativity?
22:57:17 <oats> There's also (&) in Data.Function
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22:57:21 <oats> Does that already
22:57:41 <oats> Oh wait
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22:58:17 <oats> AndreasK, (.) is function composition
22:58:31 <oats> (|>) is doing a very different kind of job
22:58:36 <oats> function application
22:58:52 <monochrom> You need an "infixr" or "infixl" or "infix" declaration to set associativity and precedence. And you need to coordinate with $'s precedence.
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22:59:12 <oats> :t (.)
22:59:13 <lambdabot> (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c
22:59:19 <oats> :t (&)
22:59:21 <lambdabot> a -> (a -> b) -> b
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22:59:39 <oats> do you see how different the types are? you can't just substitute them and flip the directionality
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23:00:19 <oats> (>>>) can function as a left-to-right alternate to (.) iirc
23:00:22 <Andriamanitra> i don't know what & is, i thought it's like bitwise or but that doesn't look like that
23:00:25 <oats> but it's not common to see it in haskell code
23:00:33 <Andriamanitra> or bitwise and maybe
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23:00:48 <oats> Andriamanitra, are you looking to make something behave like F#'s pipe operator?
23:01:12 <Andriamanitra> oats: yeah i've been using |> as that
23:01:22 <Andriamanitra> it's been working alright in other contexts
23:01:23 <oats> yeah, the equivalent to that in haskell is &
23:01:31 <oats> it's in Data.Function
23:01:40 <oats> it's not very common style though
23:01:50 <oats> function composition (.) is the dominant haskell idiom :)
23:01:58 <oats> of course you can write code however you like though
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23:02:05 <Andriamanitra> yeah i've noticed but i hate reading and writing code right to left
23:02:17 <Andriamanitra> too many ctrl+left arrows
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23:03:05 <Andriamanitra> i'll give >>> a try
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23:12:58 <ggVGc> in my opinion, haskell is best written both "right to left" and "left to right", depending on situation, rather than dogmatically following one thing (which I feel is the case in for example F# or Elixir)
23:13:24 <ggVGc> each has it's use and reads more naturally in some situations
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23:13:40 <ggVGc> I write Elixir as my day job, and I often miss function composition
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23:14:08 <Andriamanitra> i think composition is alright when combining two functions but more than that and it gets more confusing than it's worth
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23:15:41 <ggVGc> show . max . fmap (*2) $ entries, reads a lot better to me than the other way around
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23:17:26 <kluk> fifthStep . fourthStep . thirdStep . secondStep . firstStep $ value - is this confusing for having more than two functions composed?
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23:18:07 <ggVGc> but on the other hand I would prefer: parseLines "lines.txt" & extractStuff & writeResults
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23:18:26 <int-e> kluk: it's a matter of experience/habits/rewiring your brain
23:19:09 <ggVGc> Some things are more imperative data transformation pipelines, and in those cases I would rather use "piping", e.g (&) in Haskell
23:19:47 <ggVGc> but most of the time it's nice to see the left-most call being the last one, since it immediately says what the result will be
23:20:05 <kluk> int-e: Indeed. It is also a matter of familiarity so the more examples one sees the more familiar they get with something new.
23:20:46 <ggVGc> My point with my original statement is that I don't think it's useful to think of it as liking or disliking a certain direction of writing/reading
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23:21:01 <ggVGc> it's not a mutually exclusive thing
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23:23:21 <ggVGc> EvanR: did you really lose your nick on libera? That's a bit low by whoever did that
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All times are in UTC on 2021-05-20.