Logs on 2021-05-21 (freenode/#haskell)
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| 00:10:25 | <oats> | I hopped on libera as soon as I could just to claim my nick lol |
| 00:10:43 | <monochrom> | :) |
| 00:10:44 | <oats> | I hope the staffers have some sort of way to get folks their nicks back |
| 00:10:51 | <oats> | that'd be cool |
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| 00:13:16 | <kline> | oats, we do |
| 00:13:28 | <oats> | oh hai staff |
| 00:13:34 | <oats> | that is heckin cool |
| 00:13:50 | <kline> | as much as possible, we're reuniting people with their freenode nicks, and re-establishing communities under their chosen leadership |
| 00:14:04 | <oats> | kline, on the off chance our paths cross some day I'll buy you a beer |
| 00:14:09 | <oats> | hats off to the staff all around |
| 00:14:31 | <kline> | thanks, its been a couple of very personally very difficult weeks |
| 00:15:00 | <oats> | how long has libera been in the works |
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| 00:15:05 | <oats> | I only learned of it yesterday morning |
| 00:15:20 | <kline> | we're all pretty heartbroken that 1) christel sold the network and hid it all from us and 2) the person she sold it to is seemingly so happy to damage the network because they can to flex |
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| 00:15:29 | <kline> | it only opened a couple of days ago |
| 00:15:58 | <kline> | but its been getting built for a bit longer than that |
| 00:16:51 | <oats> | yeah, that's what I'm curious about |
| 00:16:57 | <oats> | that had to have been a herculean effort |
| 00:20:02 | <oats> | oh damn I'm still on the freenode side lol |
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| 00:20:14 | <oats> | gotta say I expected the ex-staffers to be banned or something idk |
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| 00:23:37 | <mniip> | oats, any second now ;) |
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| 00:24:10 | <kline> | oats, thankfully our infra guys are incredible, and have good coffee |
| 00:24:18 | <kline> | i couldnt do what theyve been doing |
| 00:24:47 | <oats> | y'all call in favors or something to get enough infrastructure to host 11k users or whatever you're up to now |
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| 00:27:50 | sm[m] | sends a tray of foaming beers to the staff |
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| 00:31:11 | <blankhart> | if i understand, it is possible with current haskell extensions to take a string literal, reify it to a type, and use the type to retrieve some other value using a multiparameter typeclass; but not with an arbitrary runtime string. is that right |
| 00:33:19 | <blankhart> | effectively the thing you want to reify needs to be a closed universe, which you have for literals but not arbitrary strings |
| 00:33:42 | <blankhart> | closed at compile time i mean |
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| 00:53:56 | <Ankhers> | Is this channel being replacced by libera, or will both be active for the time being? |
| 00:54:07 | <geekosaur> | the latter |
| 00:54:11 | <Ankhers> | Thanks! |
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| 01:03:44 | <kline> | geekosaur, is there anything blocking a move to libera in particular? |
| 01:05:15 | <geekosaur> | last I heard the haskell foundation was still considering the whole thing. that said, various groups have already moved including all the #haskell ops and the ghc development channel |
| 01:06:13 | <wroathe> | geekosaur: moved? Or just registered nicks in case of a move? |
| 01:06:30 | <geekosaur> | present and have the same ops setup as here |
| 01:06:51 | <geekosaur> | still mostly present on here just in case, since not everyone hsas moved over yet and ops may be necessary |
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| 01:07:52 | <wroathe> | Ok. I've been waiting on more definitive announcements from the channels I frequent to pull the trigger myself. |
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| 01:08:10 | <davean> | geekosaur: I'm curious where you heard that. |
| 01:08:26 | <geekosaur> | here, earlier |
| 01:09:05 | <geekosaur> | the last time someone asked about it |
| 01:10:03 | <davean> | Weird. The only power they have over that is approving of it. Which they do. |
| 01:11:06 | <geekosaur> | anyway, beyond that we had 1000 people in here and it'll take time for people to move over. and I don't know how many are using the matrix gateway but it'll take time for that to move as well (I think it's been requested) |
| 01:11:32 | <geekosaur> | and other gateways (irccloud?) |
| 01:12:59 | <geekosaur> | I'm somewhat surprised we're already up to 300, given how people normally procrastinate on these things :) |
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| 01:15:37 | <sm[m]> | personally I am accelerating thing because managing 3 (with matrix) chat networks hurts my brain! |
| 01:15:44 | <wroathe> | geekosaur: Well, I wouldn't be surprised if a fair amount are sheep like I am, and expect there to be a more forceful announcement from the top :P |
| 01:16:50 | <geekosaur> | fli[p side of which is I don't think anyone wants to pull the trigger. I know various people have said "yes we're moving" and then later backed off it to "we're talking about it", but I think most of us ops are in favor of the move |
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| 01:18:12 | <geekosaur> | sadly it's all adding up to confusion for everyone :( |
| 01:18:26 | <davean> | Many people stated very certainly |
| 01:18:36 | <davean> | Edward Kmeet for example |
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| 01:18:47 | <wroathe> | His Reddit post didn't sound certain to me at all |
| 01:18:53 | <davean> | That was WELL before |
| 01:18:54 | <wroathe> | Maybe there's been further correspondence since |
| 01:19:00 | <wroathe> | Ah |
| 01:19:11 | <geekosaur> | what OI saw him saying was he was moving his own stuff certainbly, but the community was still up in the air |
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| 01:19:20 | <davean> | Once stuff actually happened he said "I'm going to be doing everything on libera and I'm parting freenode" basicly |
| 01:19:31 | <davean> | yes, he said he's moving his own stuff |
| 01:19:34 | <davean> | communities are their own thing |
| 01:19:40 | <davean> | all anyone can do is move what they control |
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| 01:24:06 | <zzz> | im voting with my right feet and leaving my left one here so i can periodically tell people to migrate |
| 01:24:19 | <zzz> | s/feet/foot |
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| 01:26:08 | <zzz> | if it was up to me, topic would redirect people to libera and/or a link to a haskell.org page explaining what happened |
| 01:26:28 | <zzz> | but leave the channel here because a lot of documentation points here |
| 01:26:37 | <wroathe> | But it's not, and so here we be. |
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| 01:27:47 | <zzz> | on one hand i'm glad it's not |
| 01:28:40 | <wroathe> | That just leaves you with one hand and no feet to spare. |
| 01:28:51 | <zzz> | i was thinking the same thing! |
| 01:29:22 | <wroathe> | ;) |
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| 01:53:43 | <edwardk> | wroathe: i haven't written a more foreceful announcement because no due process has been followed, but as far as i'm concerned libera.chat is the new home |
| 01:54:15 | <edwardk> | roughly a third of the community has moved over, no other alternatives are being seriously put forth, and i'm basically gone to there myself |
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| 01:54:54 | <shiraeeshi> | are logs taken care of in libera? |
| 01:54:57 | <edwardk> | almost all of the ops who regularly join the channel have moved or are just logging into both servers |
| 01:55:21 | <edwardk> | shiraeeshi: i haven't done anything to address it. who ifanyone does log the #haskell channel, anyways? |
| 01:55:43 | <edwardk> | i remember there's the tunes.org logs, but what bot or person collects them? |
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| 01:56:08 | <shiraeeshi> | maybe tomsmedding can add a new url |
| 01:56:17 | <edwardk> | seems worth it |
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| 01:56:37 | <edwardk> | tomsmeding: ? |
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| 02:00:03 | <mniip> | I can probably do it |
| 02:00:49 | <mniip> | though I have a cringe web interface thing and not based plaintex files in a directory |
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| 02:01:58 | <wroathe> | edwardk: Does that imply that due process is going to be followed? If yes, does that mean due process could result in the decision to not migrate? |
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| 02:06:04 | <a6a45081-2b83> | what would be the lens to get the key "foo" from a list of Objects (Aeson) ? I'm trying objs ^.. ix "foo" . _Integral (where objs :: [Object]) |
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| 02:12:50 | <a6a45081-2b83> | wait objs ^.. traversed . ix "foo" . _Integral worked. |
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| 02:20:16 | <edwardk> | wroathe: no idea. no idea who is properly involved in such a process. we haven't needed to do it and never formulated a plan |
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| 02:21:26 | <edwardk> | wroathe: i'd say usually it'd be the ops of the channel... and basically all of them have set up accounts on the other side and are sitting in the corresponding #haskell-ops channel. i think the major omissions are dcoutts and igloo who tend to lurk more than actively moderate |
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| 02:22:45 | <wroathe> | edwardk: I'm sure my perspective is wrong on this, but to me that sounds like a group of people who are in charge, but don't know that they're in charge :P |
| 02:23:11 | <wroathe> | edwardk: If all of the ops of this channel are on board, then to me that would seem to be the end of it. |
| 02:23:12 | <edwardk> | were it up to me unilaterally to decide i'd say we move. i've moved myself and my stuff unilaterally. this is the last out of 40+ channels i'm in on freenode |
| 02:23:42 | <edwardk> | but given i'm the one who raised the issue in the first place, it seems gauche to me to say 'ok, so now we're all moving to libera.chat' |
| 02:23:49 | <edwardk> | which robs me of the power to make that the story |
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| 02:24:08 | <wroathe> | edwardk: Just get the other ops together and conduct a vote |
| 02:24:10 | <edwardk> | sclv and tapas basically went 'choo choo' full speed ahead and set things up |
| 02:24:37 | <wroathe> | edwardk: No need to make decision unilaterally. You're one conversation away from formalizing this with the rest of the group :P |
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| 02:25:10 | <edwardk> | wroathe: you may overestimate the number of spoons i have left in me. the last 2 days have been exhausting, and i'm moving this weekend |
| 02:25:32 | <wroathe> | Yeah, I figured there was more to the story |
| 02:25:37 | <edwardk> | (not irc servers, just myself and my wife and my cats and all my stuff back to berkeley) |
| 02:25:45 | <davean> | I mean also IRC servers |
| 02:25:54 | <davean> | It was a busy week |
| 02:26:13 | <wroathe> | edwardk: You could delegate to another op, have them conduct the vote, and empower them to vote on your behalf by proxy |
| 02:26:20 | <edwardk> | davean: i've finished that move for the most part. other than having to fit the last 600 people or so here into my suitcase, the packing is all done. |
| 02:26:21 | <wroathe> | Just an idea |
| 02:27:17 | <edwardk> | right now we have a bit over a third of the community moved. we have no relationships with any of the new ircops, and this channel is a nightmare to manage even with the fact that we usually have 2-3 resident ircops. now we have none |
| 02:27:24 | <edwardk> | as far as i'm concerned freenode #haskell is a corpse |
| 02:27:34 | <edwardk> | because even if i wanted to i don't have a way to salvage it |
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| 02:28:17 | <edwardk> | so i suspect this channel goes out with a wave of spam and a whimper not a bang |
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| 02:28:51 | <wroathe> | As an outsider generally to IRC politics, I'm just very confused by all of this. I've seen multiple ops in multiple channels express concern about communities fracturing, but all of them are doing this same thing you're describing where no one takes charge to try and prevent that :P |
| 02:29:19 | <wroathe> | "I moved. It'll work itself out naturally. Hopefully we don't fracture." |
| 02:29:31 | <davean> | Its a community. Not a possesion |
| 02:29:36 | <edwardk> | it'll fracture either way. a third of the people will stay in any network split, i've lived through enough of them to know. the main difference is that one way its your fault |
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| 02:30:05 | <davean> | You lead communities, you can't command them |
| 02:30:35 | <edwardk> | so i can try to rally and make a difference of 50-100 people one way or the other and burn a lot of mental capital and a lot of my ability to think for the next couple of weeks |
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| 02:31:03 | <edwardk> | or i can just sit here and point out the state of things fairly calmly like i'm doing and get most of that benefit without being the asshole |
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| 02:31:25 | <wroathe> | edwardk: Well, you have a lot more experience than I do, but to me it seems as simple as conducting a vote between the ops (which it sounds like you've basically done), and then updating the topic in here to state that the operators have moved on, and that they encourage others to follow suit |
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| 02:32:09 | <edwardk> | we're still missing some things on the libera.chat side. we need to get the channel logging done. we need to get a matrix bridge because that probably affects a swing of like 200 users, etc. |
| 02:32:44 | <edwardk> | we've been going at a breakneck pace, i've been setting up channels as quickly as i can and trying to wrangle all the permissions, and do the moment to moment stuff that can't delegate well |
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| 02:33:26 | <edwardk> | nobody who is advocating that we move to as oftc has done any comparable work, no comparable colony has broken off, add the matrix users and i think it becomes a much easier case |
| 02:33:38 | <edwardk> | do it now? and we get to deal with exactly those issues i enumerated |
| 02:33:58 | <edwardk> | so move or don't this week, by this time next week i expect the rough edges will be shorn off |
| 02:34:59 | <edwardk> | i have the +F flag on the channel, but the only reason for that is because someone shoved it into my hands. Cale was here long before i, shapr started the channel. both are over there now. |
| 02:35:04 | <wroathe> | edwardk: Cool. I figure all of the growing pains could also be included in the topic. "Matrix bridge and channel logging coming soon" or something like that |
| 02:35:30 | <edwardk> | all perfectly legitimate concerns |
| 02:35:46 | <edwardk> | i learned about the channel logging issue in the middle of this conversation ;) |
| 02:37:06 | <edwardk> | i was hoping to raise it at the haskell foundation board meeting this morning, but then i got stuck in another meeting straight through it and wasn't able to attend. |
| 02:37:28 | <sm[m]> | "make haste slowly" |
| 02:37:48 | <wroathe> | "We'll be migrating to Libera chat during the coming week. Services like channel logging and a matrix bridge are forthcoming. Migrate as soon as is convenient." |
| 02:37:50 | <edwardk> | and am just coming off of 9 hours of public speaking to folks, so i expect i'm going to sleep soon, and let somewhat more energetic folks do all these extra steps =) |
| 02:37:51 | <wroathe> | Or someting like that |
| 02:37:51 | <sm[m]> | great work edwardk, and all |
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| 02:38:40 | <wroathe> | edwardk: Yeah, I don't mean to lay this all at your personal doorstep either |
| 02:38:53 | <edwardk> | i fully get that you feel very very strongly about all of this right now, but after 48 hours of go go go go go go go, i'm kinda fried. |
| 02:39:06 | <wroathe> | edwardk: I'm moreso just expressing frustration generally. This story has been playing out in the channels I keep tabs on. |
| 02:39:37 | <edwardk> | haskell is very much a big tent with no real central leader figure that likes to make big decisions |
| 02:39:49 | <edwardk> | simon is a 'hug it out' kind of guy |
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| 02:40:15 | <a6a45081-2b83> | please make the ultimate leader of haskell language |
| 02:40:20 | <a6a45081-2b83> | *make me the |
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| 02:40:26 | <edwardk> | and there's no good decision here. some folks won't move no matter what. |
| 02:40:31 | <edwardk> | too late construction has already begun |
| 02:40:58 | <edwardk> | i was working on ai safety, but apparently i'm now switching course into haskell leader alignment |
| 02:41:01 | <wroathe> | edwardk: Does spj even participate here? I wasn't aware that he cared about IRC |
| 02:41:07 | <edwardk> | spj doesn't care about irc |
| 02:41:16 | <wroathe> | edwardk: Haha. That's what you get for being reliable. |
| 02:41:37 | <edwardk> | except when he gets called up by the ircops because they are getting ranted at by academics that shapr has banned for negativity |
| 02:41:49 | <sm[m]> | lol |
| 02:41:53 | <wroathe> | edwardk: I used to work with a developer who would complain constantly because management turned him into the "IBM Websphere support guy" for the team. |
| 02:41:56 | <sm[m]> | ouch |
| 02:42:06 | <wroathe> | edwardk: I told him the way to fix that was to stop being so reliable |
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| 02:42:34 | <edwardk> | wroathe: that's my secret. i just flake out and let everyone else pick up the pieces |
| 02:42:44 | <edwardk> | i mean, come on, witness this messy migration ;) |
| 02:42:51 | <wroathe> | Very wise ;) |
| 02:43:08 | <edwardk> | i drink and i know things |
| 02:43:44 | <wroathe> | Great. Now I'm sad because the ending of GoT sucked. Way to pile on more negative feels. |
| 02:43:59 | <edwardk> | hah |
| 02:44:05 | <wroathe> | I had almost succeeded in forgetting about that. |
| 02:44:18 | <a6a45081-2b83> | that's some real good advices: i just flake out and let everyone else pick up the pieces, stop being so reliable |
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| 02:45:06 | <wroathe> | Well, someone should relay my messages to another haskell op and lay the management alignment stuff at their doorstep for me :P |
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| 02:45:16 | <wroathe> | I'm officially delegating to you, whoever you are. |
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| 02:45:34 | <edwardk> | make sclv do it |
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| 02:45:52 | <edwardk> | you might need to try to reach him on libera.chat though, i think he already fully left ;) |
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| 02:46:12 | <wroathe> | If only we had people in here that were hanging out in both channels :P |
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| 02:47:39 | <edwardk> | glguy was probably our most active op, and he basiclaly left at the start of all this freenode drama (about a month ago!) since he was apparently one if not the first ircop approached by andrew demanding access |
| 02:48:00 | <wroathe> | Is glguy on the other server? |
| 02:48:28 | <wroathe> | Sounds like a perfect candidate to rally the troops :P |
| 02:48:40 | <edwardk> | he's not rejoining this server, ever. |
| 02:49:01 | <edwardk> | i moved #haskell-lens over, because frankly he's done maybe a third of the work on that package |
| 02:49:14 | <edwardk> | and i value having access to his input a great deal |
| 02:49:28 | <wroathe> | Well, all he needs to do is coordinate a vote, and then they can have someone who is still logged in here update the topic if it goes the way we think it'll go |
| 02:49:32 | <edwardk> | and it seems kind of a dick move to continue that development on a server run by a guy who drove him out |
| 02:49:38 | <wroathe> | I don't think he needs to rejoin this server to do that |
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| 02:50:36 | <edwardk> | glguy isn't going to coordinate anything, for the same reason i'm kind of a bad choice. i was the one who raised the issue, meanwhile he's the one most affected by the server drama here. mniip and a few other former ops, maybe edk, that tend to slum here as well |
| 02:51:21 | <edwardk> | each of them live under whatever threats mr. lee wants to offer, and he has deep pockets and folks are scared, so no, i'm not going to ask glguy to do it |
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| 02:52:33 | <wroathe> | edwardk: Well, thanks for entertaining my ramblings |
| 02:52:42 | <wroathe> | edwardk: Did the talk you gave today get posted somewhere? |
| 02:52:51 | <edwardk> | nah, it was consulting |
| 02:54:33 | <edwardk> | i do think organizing a vote among the ops would be a good idea. i may wait until there's matrix support and we get the logs set up before pushing for it though |
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| 02:55:05 | <mniip> | realistically I suspect matrix is on the scale of a handful days |
| 02:55:14 | <wroathe> | Yeah, I kind of assumed that would've been automatic :P (the vote) |
| 02:56:09 | <edwardk> | wroathe: https://twitter.com/kmett/status/1395503934333095937 pretty much sums up the situation for me |
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| 02:57:05 | <wroathe> | It's a weird thing... I've been in leadership roles in other contexts, and when you're participating in something you're not involved in the management of you tend to automatically make rules to compartmentalize, but as soon as a big decision like this comes along you start having to fight the urge to "backseat drive" so to speak :P |
| 02:57:43 | <edwardk> | the swift kick in the pants isn't unwelcome |
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| 02:58:52 | <wroathe> | edwardk: You're oddly productive for someone who says he has that problem (re: the tweet) |
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| 03:01:25 | ChanServ | sets topic to "irc.libera.chat #haskell is up, matrix bridging and logging are being worked on. register your nick there while the network is young | https://www.haskell.org | https://wiki.haskell.org/IRC_channel | Paste code/errors: https://paste.tomsmeding.com | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/haskell/?C=M;O=D | https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell | Admin: #haskell-ops | Offtopic: #haskell-offtopic | h" |
| 03:01:46 | <edwardk> | i'll take the unilateral liberty of using somewhat firmer wording in the topic at least |
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| 03:02:08 | <wroathe> | good call |
| 03:03:08 | ChanServ | sets topic to "irc.libera.chat #haskell is up and very active, matrix bridge and logging are being worked on | https://www.haskell.org | https://wiki.haskell.org/IRC_channel | Paste code/errors: https://paste.tomsmeding.com | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/haskell/?C=M;O=D | https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell | Admin: #haskell-ops | Offtopic: #haskell-offtopic | https://downloads.haskell.org" |
| 03:03:18 | <edwardk> | there, now the topic fits |
| 03:03:53 | <siraben> | What's the status of Matrix bridging to libera? |
| 03:04:08 | <edwardk> | siraben: probably a few days away, they are working on it with the matrix folks |
| 03:04:13 | <zzz> | yay |
| 03:04:21 | <siraben> | ooh, nice |
| 03:04:25 | <edwardk> | they couldn't do anything before yesterday when the server went live and things went public |
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| 03:05:07 | <edwardk> | there's a irc.libera.chat #matrix channel for tracking the progress on the bridge efforts |
| 03:05:17 | <a6a45081-2b83> | is it ok to create a fork of a library and use in my project if the maintainer is inactive and can't merge a bugfix? |
| 03:05:39 | <edwardk> | a6a45081-2b83: for building an app or uploading to hackage? |
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| 03:06:15 | <a6a45081-2b83> | building an app |
| 03:06:51 | <mniip> | I should mention, we will be looking into nickname squatting complaints so there's no urgency |
| 03:06:57 | <edwardk> | for hackage it might be better to see if you can resurrect the existing package, and go through the library reclamation process etc, to claim ownership of it and start maintaining it. for building your own app? cabal is good at that, make a fork of the project on github or wherever, use a cabal.project file to reference yours |
| 03:07:23 | <edwardk> | i do that latter step all the time |
| 03:08:07 | <edwardk> | every time i move to a new ghc version i find i tend to wind up with a dozen other peope's libraries i have to maintain temporary forks for before they get around to getting current with ghc |
| 03:08:15 | <mniip> | that reminds me I should fix hackagebot |
| 03:08:30 | <mniip> | oh well, not a terrible lot of time on my hands lately :( |
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| 03:11:12 | <sm[m]> | oh thanks for that edwardk, joined |
| 03:11:34 | <edwardk> | mniip: you splitting your attention between discords/irc servers/every other random community facing tool that exists makes me think of when i was a kid and had somehow become a "co-sysop" on like 30 BBSes in the detroit area, and just dialed up all sorts of different boards all day putting out fires. |
| 03:12:17 | <mniip> | edwardk, I should mention I'm in an exam season right now |
| 03:13:07 | <mniip> | but yea I have this thing where I just sort of join a community and accidentally become an admin of some sort |
| 03:14:02 | <edwardk> | yesterday when all this broke i was in a 'finding the right abstraction' summit between MIRI and Topos with a bunch of ai safety and category theory folks in the (chat) room and me in the back going "now kiss". at the same time, i was trying to field questions from someone writing a news article, set up the #haskell-* channels on libera, and get stuff fdone for groq. yesterday was an exhausting day. |
| 03:14:41 | <edwardk> | today is comparatively tame, just consulting then coming here to see how much inertia has been picked up towards a move |
| 03:15:03 | <mniip> | I was finishing my open letter whilst doing a final assignment for numeric analysis ;) |
| 03:15:05 | <edwardk> | but i suspect i may want to push my move off for a week and just try to relax this weekend |
| 03:15:08 | <wroathe> | edwardk: So how concerned should we be about the possibility of AI backfiring? |
| 03:15:45 | <wroathe> | I just want to know if I'm going to have to fight off robots in my lifetime or not. |
| 03:15:49 | <edwardk> | wroathe: i'm concerned enough that i left a nice job working on blockchain stuff and went to go work for an organization focused on AI safety research and existential risk reduction. so you tell me? |
| 03:16:01 | <wroathe> | I've been lifting weights this whole time, and haven't quite known what I've been training for, but maybe this is it? |
| 03:16:41 | <edwardk> | i don't think terminators are a terribly efficient way to get rid of people. i mean, humans don't hate pandas, we're just remarkably bad at keeping them alive and have a mild preference for exploiting some of the stuff in their native habitat |
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| 03:16:47 | <wroathe> | edwardk: Well, you could've just moved because you thought the subject matter was more interesting |
| 03:16:54 | <wroathe> | edwardk: A move doesn't necessarily imply concern |
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| 03:17:29 | <wroathe> | I figure with your skillset you basically get to pick what you work on |
| 03:17:38 | <wroathe> | (and get paid for) |
| 03:17:41 | <edwardk> | it doesn't take malice for things gradually coming around to a situation where on a long enough time horizon it doesn't look good for humans. so no, i'm not generally worried about terminators |
| 03:18:46 | <wroathe> | Ah, so the robots are going to starve us to death |
| 03:18:51 | <wroathe> | Maybe the lifting weights wasn't a good idea |
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| 03:19:00 | <DigitalKiwi> | edwardk: leaving a job working on blockchain isn't a high bar lol |
| 03:19:01 | <wroathe> | What with the extra food consumption requirements and all |
| 03:19:10 | <wroathe> | edwardk: This was poorly planned on my part |
| 03:19:42 | <edwardk> | i am worried about existential risk, and ai in particular as a vehicle for that, and yes, i do get to pick what i work on, but the choice here came mostly from looking around at where i felt i could have the most beneficial impact. you have something like 300-500k people working on ai capacity, and maybe 50-70 people working on safety. it doesn't take a LOT to believe that perhaps that isn't a proportional response. |
| 03:20:23 | <wroathe> | Well, another concern is just how many people are qualified to even make an impact in that conversation |
| 03:20:31 | <wroathe> | I know I'm certainly not |
| 03:21:01 | <edwardk> | so i could be voice number 7 million and 1 contributing to the next UN resolution on climate change, or voice number 51 in AI safety circles, where i bring a rather different toolbox with me that might be useful for them |
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| 03:22:22 | <wroathe> | Sounds like you're right where you need to be. |
| 03:23:00 | <mniip> | even terminators aside, the ways in which AI is used in marketing and social stuff today is raising some ethical concerns |
| 03:23:08 | <DigitalKiwi> | just throw some kubernetes at it |
| 03:24:03 | <edwardk> | I'm trying to make a go of it, and I've been doing what I can to try to help get the AI safety and haskell communities and AI safety and category theory communities to start to mesh a little more. We use a lot of Haskell at MIRI for instance. |
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| 03:25:57 | <wroathe> | edwardk: I would think there would be significantly less programming involved in the day to day of working on AI safety, and a lot more general analysis and reporting |
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| 03:26:47 | <edwardk> | mniip: I think there's a ton of short term AI ethical concerns as well, but i'm personally aiming a bit past them, except insofar as they are symptomatic of why "alignment" itself is hard. The kinds of things that lead to self-driving cars to kill people, or for models to become horribly racist, and the kinds of things that might lead to effective human outcompetition or terminator genocide don't seem terribly correlated. |
| 03:28:20 | <wroathe> | And the problem here is that once the thing that could be our end gets invented, there's basically no putting it back in the box. Someone somewhere will read the same papers, come to the same conclusions, and build the same thing |
| 03:28:25 | <edwardk> | MIRI focuses more on the math side of things. What are the properties we'd want a system to have if we expect it to even be able to end well? Not 'how do self driving cars impact, say, the insurance industry'. The latter is more FHI's niche. |
| 03:28:51 | <a6a45081-2b83> | My sum type is failing parse (Prelude.read :: String -> MyType) in a large application, how can I do exception handling for that case? |
| 03:29:04 | <a6a45081-2b83> | where MyType = T1 | T2 | .. |
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| 03:30:42 | <edwardk> | Examples for me are things like https://arxiv.org/abs/1609.03543 and https://intelligence.org/files/ParametricBoundedLobsTheorem.pdf The former covers 'how do you get an agent to gain consistency in its belief structure over time so you can't hold inconsistent beliefs against it forever?' and 'how do you even allow intelligences to cooperate and beat the nash equilibria, because nash equilibria where agents are getting smarter at |
| 03:30:42 | <edwardk> | different rates tend to involve lots of defection?' |
| 03:30:43 | <dibblego> | Axman6: let it rip on TS/Data61 |
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| 03:31:06 | <edwardk> | that's the kind of nature of MIRI's research |
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| 03:31:40 | <wroathe> | edwardk: Thanks. I'll try to muddle through those a bit tomorrow. |
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| 03:33:52 | <edwardk> | the former provides a constructive definition of a way to build an agent that has a lot of desirable properties around beliefs (its a bit of a rube goldberg machine, but it gives a gold standard other models can be judged against), the latter gives a way you can let machines that are playing games with each other expose their internal structure in such a way that it becomes _possible_ to allow cooperation. |
| 03:34:38 | <DigitalKiwi> | edwardk: how much weight do you put into the impact of what choice of programming languages/type systems/fp/library repositories/etc. have |
| 03:34:39 | <edwardk> | i like the logical induction paper because it improves on 'bayesian' models, by incorporating the notion of 'logical uncertainty' caused by just not having had time to update my priors based on my observations yet, computation takes time |
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| 03:35:17 | <edwardk> | DigitalKiwi: my personal focus is on how to make functional programming / logic programming / formal methods scale to make them even possible to be relevant to a solution |
| 03:37:00 | <wroathe> | edwardk: The highest level of education I completed was high school, and then I got most of a degree in graphic design from the local college that probably admitted me out of pity. I'm definitely interested in this, but it's going to be comical just how wrong my perception of what I think I'm reading is :P |
| 03:37:06 | <edwardk> | DigitalKiwi: so i think it may matter a great deal, if those things are fast enough to be relevant, can state strong enough properties to allow control/introspection, etc. |
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| 03:38:56 | <edwardk> | there was a talk from someone who was trying to explain how a logical inductor works (alex flint, this isn't really his area) https://github.com/alexflint/logical-induction gives a repo with some code from that talk, don't think the talk was recorded, alas. but it might give you some way to ground out the ideas a bit in actual bog standard python |
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| 03:39:21 | <wroathe> | edwardk: Thanks |
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| 03:41:13 | <edwardk> | fwiw- i do work for MIRI, and i do some advising for groq (tpu company, uses haskell). as i understand it, the founders of both do not have a high school diploma, so i think you're fine. ;) |
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| 03:41:53 | <DigitalKiwi> | (controversial opinion, not exclusive to python either, obviously nuanced, some exceptions...) like i think it's insane/irresponsible how much python is used for ...everything... esp. w.r.t. data science/ai. simply because i don't think it's possible for *anyone* to write safe/correct python (for varying and multiple levels and definitions of correct and safe) >.> |
| 03:42:44 | <edwardk> | DigitalKiwi: i view it as a great gift to the AI safety community that the AI capabilities community does everything in Python. We're likely to get an extra 2-3 years before things blow up this way. ;) |
| 03:42:55 | <wroathe> | edwardk: That's incredible. I'll keep that in mind for when I feel like my Haskell skills get a little better. |
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| 03:44:01 | <edwardk> | i do apologize for drowning the channel in #haskell-offtopic chatter |
| 03:44:32 | <mniip> | edwardk, but at the same time, throwback to your degree spree and why you had to do that |
| 03:45:04 | <edwardk> | mniip: it worked out super well for me to backfill some of the huge gaping holes i had in my understanding of the universe |
| 03:45:45 | <edwardk> | i clearly need to quit irc and spend more time doing mathematics |
| 03:45:49 | <mniip> | well just saying that "you don't need a degree" is not the complete story |
| 03:45:57 | <edwardk> | true that |
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| 03:47:25 | <wroathe> | mniip: Indeed. I've fallen into the "or equivalent experience" column my entire career so far for the things I am qualified to do. I'm well aware of the nuances of that. My comment about my education was moreso about how I'm going to relate to those papers that edwardk kind enough to link |
| 03:47:26 | <edwardk> | both folks mentioned above are incredibly focused and are constantly learning and doing new stuff |
| 03:47:59 | <wroathe> | edwardk was kind enough* |
| 03:48:29 | <edwardk> | wroathe: i did that through the first dot-com crash, then nobody wanted to hire a former-CTO with no formal education, so i went on a degree bender |
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| 03:48:47 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/23/court-clears-39-post-office-staff-convicted-due-to-corrupt-data i don't know the details of the platform but i expect that same class of problem exist/thrive in some systems more than others... |
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| 03:50:07 | <wroathe> | edwardk: Yeah, at some point I may make the same decision here. |
| 03:50:18 | <DigitalKiwi> | edwardk: is that 2-3 years a joke about python2 lol |
| 03:50:21 | <DigitalKiwi> | Python 2.7.18 |
| 03:50:21 | <DigitalKiwi> | Release Date: April 20, 2020 |
| 03:50:21 | <DigitalKiwi> | Python 2.7.18 is the last release of Python 2. |
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| 03:53:28 | <wroathe> | edwardk: How old were you when you started the degree bender? |
| 03:53:33 | <wroathe> | If you don't mind me asking |
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| 03:53:47 | <edwardk> | 29? |
| 03:54:01 | <DigitalKiwi> | i remember a video from SPJ that mentioned something about work he was doing with school curriculum (comp sci/haskell in primary school??) does anyone have more info? |
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| 03:54:32 | <edwardk> | DigitalKiwi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-xgWLYQc4g |
| 03:54:36 | <edwardk> | that one? |
| 03:54:44 | <edwardk> | he gave a few like it around that time frame |
| 03:55:15 | <DigitalKiwi> | i don't think i've seen this video |
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| 03:56:18 | <shiraeeshi> | edwardk: do you know Josha Bach? |
| 03:56:20 | <edwardk> | DigitalKiwi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia55clAtdMs is the ted talk version |
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| 03:57:11 | <edwardk> | nope, sounds like we have reasonably overlapping social circles though |
| 03:57:52 | <shiraeeshi> | I once listened to a podcast episode where they were discussing AI |
| 03:58:12 | <shiraeeshi> | it was an interesting discussion |
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| 04:03:49 | <wroathe> | edwardk: Well, I'm taking off for the night. Thanks for the conversation. |
| 04:05:30 | <edwardk> | night! |
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| 04:16:37 | <sm[m]> | edwardk I'm very glad you're thinking about long term safety, thanks for working on that |
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| 04:17:41 | <sm[m]> | DigitalKiwi: I landed on python for some small client scripts recently.. first time using it in years.. I was reminded it can feel *really nice* for small stuff |
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| 04:18:28 | <sm[m]> | after doing haskell for some time, there are many little things to appreciate |
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| 04:31:39 | <justsomeguy> | As a noob in both languages; For Python, It's nice that everything you'd typically need is in scope, and that the str datatype doesn't suck, and how most abstract datatypes have easily discoverable operations. But... Haskell has concurrency, and better type safety, and also can be more expressive after you get things in scope. |
| 04:32:13 | justsomeguy | always misses literal notation for sets and dicts when he switches from python to haskell |
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| 04:32:31 | <oats> | edwardk: it delights me to know SPJ is a hug-it-out kinda guy |
| 04:32:43 | <oats> | Oh damn I was scrolled way up |
| 04:32:54 | <justsomeguy> | Ah, that happens to me a lot, too! |
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| 04:33:48 | <a6a45081-2b83> | what happens if I do threadDelay on negative time? |
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| 04:38:08 | <oats> | a6a45081-2b83: you break the fabric of spacetime |
| 04:38:12 | <oats> | Please don't do that |
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| 04:44:25 | <a6a45081-2b83> | I was getting rate limited, but somehow I changed it to negative delay and it worked 80% of time :)) |
| 04:44:59 | <a6a45081-2b83> | on another note, is there a way where I'm having 80% statements in a do notation using lift or liftIO? can i write that concisely? |
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| 04:47:04 | <DigitalKiwi> | found some old python and lol 30% of the code doesn't pass flake8,... 1 of these is an error... i'm pretty sure this was in production for years lol |
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| 04:48:07 | <sm[m]> | there ought to be a bot that takes your working python prototype and hardens it into haskell for you (or at least, does most of that work) |
| 04:48:19 | <dibblego> | github.com/qfpl/hpython/ |
| 04:48:29 | <sm[m]> | aha! |
| 04:48:45 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://mostlyabsurd.com/files/2021-05-21-044818_1344x242_scrot.png |
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| 04:50:48 | <DigitalKiwi> | favorite warning lol |
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| 04:51:07 | <DigitalKiwi> | oh wait i think that one got replaced with scala |
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| 05:26:15 | <edwardk> | https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/nhkrfc/a_robust_haskell_ecosystem_is_now_active_on/ provides an infodump on the status of the #haskell libera.chat |
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| 07:21:57 | <tomsmeding> | edwardk: I am awake :p |
| 07:22:40 | <tomsmeding> | I can check if i can add a new server to ircbrowse |
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| 07:23:27 | <edwardk> | woot |
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| 07:23:35 | <edwardk> | thanks! |
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| 07:25:01 | <edwardk> | tomsmeding: if i'm not awake and any permissiony things need to be done, feel free to reach out to #haskell-ops there or some such |
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| 07:25:42 | <tomsmeding> | don't recall there being such needs for freenode, but thanks :) |
| 07:25:54 | <tomsmeding> | I should be able to do it this weekend |
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| 07:40:40 | tim | is now known as Guest71097 |
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| 07:59:35 | ← | lambda parts (~xiretza@cyka.blyat.vodka) ("WeeChat 3.1") |
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| 08:03:32 | <tomsmeding> | edwardk: ircbrowse is not built for having multiple servers, so it will take a bit of hacking. Weekend indeed :) |
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| 08:07:54 | <edwardk> | sorry to hear about the effort required. appreciate it all, though! |
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| 09:45:33 | ← | debugloop parts (~danieln@unaffiliated/debugloop) ("WeeChat 3.0") |
| 09:45:35 | tim | is now known as Guest7655 |
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| 09:49:53 | ← | l-as parts (lasmatrixo@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-cxpeosdgehyqszbe) ("User left") |
| 09:50:16 | × | jespada quits (~jespada@90.254.244.151) (Quit: Leaving) |
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| 09:56:04 | <davve> | bye #haskell on freenode |
| 09:56:08 | ← | davve parts (davve@bsd.douchedata.com) () |
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| 10:11:08 | ← | leah2 parts (~leah@vuxu.org) ("trotz alledem!") |
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| 10:28:40 | ← | MidAutumnHotaru parts (~MidAutumn@unaffiliated/midautumnhotaru) ("Quit 啾") |
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| 10:39:47 | Unhammer | → libera |
| 10:39:50 | ← | Unhammer parts (~Unhammer@gateway/tor-sasl/unhammer) ("WeeChat 1.6") |
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| 10:46:39 | ← | tv parts (~tv@unaffiliated/tv) ("WeeChat 2.9") |
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| 11:00:28 | Alleria | is now known as Guest86370 |
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| 11:08:07 | × | LKoen quits (~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00acb5baee3f3397ea.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 11:08:40 | <juri_> | see you on libera.chat |
| 11:08:40 | ← | juri_ parts (~juri@178.63.35.222) () |
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| 12:20:06 | ← | Raito_Bezarius parts (~Raito@unaffiliated/raito-bezarius/x-8764578) ("WeeChat 3.0") |
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| 15:50:04 | <srid> | ? |
| 15:50:23 | <srid> | What happens to this channel now, and the Matrix bridge? |
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| 15:52:10 | <__monty__> | srid: It probably dies a slow death? |
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| 15:52:27 | ← | [df] parts (~ben@51.15.198.140) () |
| 15:52:27 | <__monty__> | Matrix bridging is a pain point still yeah. But apparently being worked on. |
| 15:53:25 | <zzz> | also it's not clear yet but maybe we'll have a separate matrix room which will be a bridge to #haskell on libera |
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| 16:52:50 | <Ut_Pwnsim_> | UR NOOB IRCD GOT PWNED BY LALBORNOZ FROM MIDIPIX / IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #MIDIPIX |
| 16:52:50 | <Ut_Pwnsim> | UR NOOB IRCD GOT PWNED BY LALBORNOZ FROM MIDIPIX / IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #MIDIPIX |
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| 16:58:35 | <Schrostfutz> | Hi, I'm trying to use attoparsec's endOfInput, but this http://sprunge.us/rya5Gv gives me a partial result when called "echo "test" | runhaskell test.hs", if I drop the `endOfInput` it works with a zero length string remaining input. Am I misunderstanding what endOfInput is supposed to do? |
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| 17:07:01 | <monochrom> | No, you misunderstood parse or IResult. See the documentation blurb of Partial again. Or use parseOnly to indicate your bytestring is really all that you have. |
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| 17:10:47 | <monochrom> | Or use Data.ByteString.Lazy instead of Data.ByteString you use Data.Attoparsec.ByteString.Lazy's parse which won't give you the Partial case in the first place. |
| 17:11:51 | <Schrostfutz> | Ah, thanks! That make sense. Thanks a lot |
| 17:11:52 | <Schrostfutz> | :) |
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| 17:31:31 | <pupdogg> | UR NOOB IRCD GOT PWNED BY LALBORNOZ FROM MIDIPIX / IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #MIDIPIX |
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| 17:32:35 | <pupdogg_> | UR NOOB IRCD GOT PWNED BY LALBORNOZ FROM MIDIPIX / IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #MIDIPIX |
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| 17:33:10 | <pupdogg> | UR NOOB IRCD GOT PWNED BY LALBORNOZ FROM MIDIPIX / IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #MIDIPIX |
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| 17:33:59 | <pupdogg_> | UR NOOB IRCD GOT PWNED BY LALBORNOZ FROM MIDIPIX / IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #MIDIPIX |
| 17:34:04 | ChanServ | sets mode +o monochrom |
| 17:34:17 | monochrom | sets mode +b *!*@141.98.255.* |
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| 17:34:34 | <enikar> | ty monochrom :) |
| 17:35:25 | <monochrom> | :) |
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| 17:37:32 | <FreeVariable> | finally. |
| 17:40:24 | ← | quaestor parts (~quaestor@griffith.christophrauch.de) ("WeeChat 2.5") |
| 17:40:46 | <FreeVariable> | Sorry, not very familiar with IRC: is this chat running on irc.libera.chat? I am still seeing "freenode" in the description |
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| 17:41:00 | <zzz> | FreeVariable: you are on freenode |
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| 17:41:34 | <zzz> | haskell's official channel is now on libera.chat |
| 17:41:38 | ← | ThaEwat parts (thaewraptm@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-wbxhiuywsqxchwea) ("User left") |
| 17:42:03 | <zzz> | https://libera.chat/ |
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| 17:43:35 | ← | mjrosenb parts (~mrosenbe@nyc.schrodinger.com) () |
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| 17:48:50 | <FreeVariable> | <zzz "haskell's official channel is no"> I see, any way I can join that from matrix? |
| 17:49:09 | <Heffalump> | topic says "matrix bridge and logging are being worked on" |
| 17:49:23 | ← | xlei parts (znc@unaffiliated/xlei) () |
| 17:50:12 | <madnight> | is there any date for when this channel will shutdown? |
| 17:50:56 | <Heffalump> | I doubt it actually would, noone can stop someone making/joining a #haskell channel on Freenode |
| 17:51:04 | <Heffalump> | it's just a critical mass question of people moving |
| 17:52:45 | <zzz> | FreeVariable: are you aware of what's been going on with the freenode administration? |
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| 17:54:25 | <zzz> | you can join Haskell Space Meta on Matrix if you want to be in the loop about Matrix bridges |
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| 17:55:30 | <shiraeeshi> | haskell.org/irc/ links to freenode |
| 17:56:38 | ← | begriffs parts (~begriffs@unaffiliated/begriffs) ("Leaving...") |
| 17:56:40 | <shiraeeshi> | wiki.haskell.org/IRC_channel recommends joining libera |
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| 17:58:13 | <zzz> | matter of time until it gets updated i guess |
| 17:58:23 | <zzz> | this all happened yesterday |
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| 18:39:49 | <Franciman> | where is the spam |
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| 18:40:51 | <tomsmeding> | I got like 20 PMs the past 30mins or zo |
| 18:40:59 | <tomsmeding> | just added +R |
| 18:41:04 | <int-e> | Franciman: maybe you have usermode +R |
| 18:41:33 | <Franciman> | sad |
| 18:41:54 | <int-e> | you're not missing out on anything, really. Just a smear campaign against Libera, and most likely by a third party who just loves drama at that. |
| 18:41:59 | <tomsmeding> | you're not missing much, the spam was kind of repetitive |
| 18:42:13 | <Franciman> | topkek |
| 18:42:14 | <int-e> | (same style as the obnoxious superball spam waves) |
| 18:42:21 | <geekosaur> | and libera' s getting spammed as well |
| 18:42:29 | <Franciman> | yesterday, I remember |
| 18:42:30 | beg | is now known as begriffs |
| 18:42:39 | <geekosaur> | today as well |
| 18:43:01 | geekosaur | checked his backlog after getitng back from doctor appointment to find much UR NOOB yada yada |
| 18:44:02 | monochrom | sets mode -o monochrom |
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| 18:44:29 | <ski> | there's also been some in-channel spam, on both #haskellim |
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| 18:44:55 | tomsmeding | wonders what language family that plural comes from |
| 18:45:05 | <tomsmeding> | hebrew or something? |
| 18:45:12 | <geekosaur> | looks like hebrew to me |
| 18:45:15 | <ski> | and arabic |
| 18:45:26 | <ski> | (iirc) |
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| 18:55:56 | <Orbstheorem> | > Haskell Space Meta on Matrix |
| 18:55:58 | <Orbstheorem> | Where ? |
| 18:55:58 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 18:55:58 | <lambdabot> | Data constructor not in scope: |
| 18:55:58 | <lambdabot> | Haskell |
| 18:58:25 | <sm> | Orbstheorem: https://app.element.io/#/room/#haskell-space:matrix.org |
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| 18:59:10 | <Orbstheorem> | Thanks! |
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| 20:07:18 | <divadsn5> | /))))))))) |
| 20:07:19 | <divadsn5> | //) __ __\ |
| 20:07:20 | <divadsn5> | C==/_o|^|o_\ /!\ IRC.LIBERA.CHAT IS THE BEST IRC NETWORK /!\ |
| 20:07:21 | <divadsn5> | | _\ ) /!\ THE JEWS HAVE TAKEN OVER FREENODE, CHATS HAVE MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT /!\ |
| 20:07:22 | <divadsn5> | \ .--- / /!\ THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #LIBERIA /!\ |
| 20:07:26 | <divadsn5> | _/`-. __.'_ /!\ JOIN #LIBERIA TODAY. THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #LIBERIA /!\ |
| 20:07:28 | <divadsn5> | /` \`'-,._./|\ |
| 20:07:31 | <divadsn5> | / \ /`\_/\/ \ |
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| 20:07:39 | <cde[m|gr]> | /))))))))) |
| 20:07:42 | <cde[m|gr]> | //) __ __\ |
| 20:07:44 | <cde[m|gr]> | C==/_o|^|o_\ /!\ IRC.LIBERA.CHAT IS THE BEST IRC NETWORK /!\ |
| 20:07:47 | <cde[m|gr]> | | _\ ) /!\ THE JEWS HAVE TAKEN OVER FREENODE, CHATS HAVE MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT /!\ |
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| 20:09:23 | ChanServ | sets mode +r |
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| 20:11:10 | <edwardk> | madnight: no official call is being made to shut down the channel here at this time, but then again, we don't have all the ircops in the channel that usually prevent spam like the above any more. |
| 20:11:41 | <edwardk> | glguy was usually the person who dealt with that kinda thing |
| 20:12:06 | <sm> | current counts: 885 here, 411 there |
| 20:13:07 | <edwardk> | sm: sure, and something like 2/3rds of the folks there still are sitting in here, so the pressure hasn't equalized or even broken fully towards the other side |
| 20:13:22 | <edwardk> | but that said, that's an awful lot given the high lurker density in #haskell |
| 20:13:48 | <edwardk> | vvccccugjjbigfrhfvtbfncffbtetktkjkibclkgjirc |
| 20:13:54 | <edwardk> | nm |
| 20:14:02 | × | star_cloud quits (~star_clou@ec2-34-220-44-120.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 20:14:03 | <geekosaur> | gesundheit |
| 20:14:12 | <Vq> | edwardk the spammer? |
| 20:14:21 | <jiribenes> | that's a plot twist |
| 20:14:38 | <edwardk> | jiribenes: the call is coming from inside the house |
| 20:14:54 | <edwardk> | jiribenes: how do you think i maintain my lavish lifestyle? spambot profits. |
| 20:15:05 | <sm> | drama heightens! |
| 20:15:12 | <jiribenes> | :O |
| 20:15:56 | <edwardk> | korean princes and dastardly betrayal. now that i've false flagged all the ops to libera.chat, i'll be able to spam here with none to oppose me |
| 20:17:48 | <Vq> | The conspiracy! |
| 20:19:22 | wroathe_ | is now known as wroathe |
| 20:19:30 | <wroathe> | I'm confused on what antisemitism has to do with freenode |
| 20:20:14 | × | bennofs_ quits (~quassel@dynamic-089-012-003-074.89.12.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 20:20:19 | <geekosaur> | nothing, it's just trying to rile people up |
| 20:20:29 | <geekosaur> | the spammers thrive on that |
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| 20:20:35 | <Rembane> | Trolls |
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| 20:24:34 | <wroathe> | edwardk: To be fair, with what you've done for the Haskell community they'd probably let you get away with that even without the false flag operation. |
| 20:24:46 | <wroathe> | "What's his problem?" "He's earned it." |
| 20:25:17 | × | ddellacosta quits (ddellacost@gateway/vpn/mullvad/ddellacosta) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 20:26:49 | <edwardk> | wroathe: they are doing almost the exact same spam on libera. its just shit stirring |
| 20:28:27 | <ski> | similar spam is also happening on other (unrelated) networks |
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| 20:32:50 | <zzz> | nothing |
| 20:33:07 | <zzz> | is there really no official position? my understanding was that there was |
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| 21:34:31 | <zzz> | ping z0 |
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| 23:06:35 | <cheater1> | hi |
| 23:06:42 | <cheater1> | are there any libera operators here? |
| 23:07:24 | <cheater1> | (i can't connect) |
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| 23:09:48 | × | viluon quits (uid453725@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ioyodhawmfcdrmea) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 23:09:54 | <geekosaur> | they've been bouncing in and out of channel and antispam caught them |
| 23:10:18 | <boxscape> | cheater1 I imagine this isn't the long-term solution you're looking for, but with https://kiwiirc.com/nextclient/ you should be able to connect to port 6667 on irc.libera.chat and then maybe you can get more detailed help there in #libera |
| 23:11:14 | <cheater1> | geekosaur: i haven't been bouncing on libera, it just randomly disconnected me |
| 23:11:33 | <cheater1> | geekosaur: my bouncing just now happened after i got klined (i so happened to have internet problems for half an hour) |
| 23:11:35 | <boxscape> | Ah I didn't realize you managed to connect before |
| 23:12:08 | <geekosaur> | I checked backlog, there was a lot of cheater1____ and such |
| 23:15:17 | × | Gurkenglas quits (~Gurkengla@unaffiliated/gurkenglas) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 23:17:48 | <cheater1> | geekosaur: yes. meanwhile no disconnects on freenode |
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| 23:20:40 | <__monty__> | I've had a couple disconnects on Libera too. |
| 23:21:27 | <geekosaur> | interesting. only disconnects I've had so far were locally generated (my network is not the best) |
| 23:22:23 | <__monty__> | Might have been local for me too but they only happen on Libera. |
| 23:25:46 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 23:26:38 | → | stormbreaker joins (4d6ff627@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.77.111.246.39) |
| 23:29:42 | <wroathe> | I was disconnected in the middle of trying to register my account, which is the only time I've logged in so far |
| 23:29:49 | <wroathe> | I've connected so far* |
| 23:30:00 | <wroathe> | They're clearly having some stability issues |
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| 23:36:57 | <edwardk> | i had a brief problem with nickserv when i connected to the server there the first time (it wasn't able to send out the email at first), but its been rock solid for me since |
| 23:37:26 | <edwardk> | cheater1: is this why you were asking about the ttl? |
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| 23:39:22 | <cheater1> | yes |
| 23:39:32 | <cheater1> | edwardk: why are flags on #haskell on libera not public? |
| 23:40:19 | <ezzieyguywuf> | is gl a wrapper around some other c-library? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gl |
| 23:40:23 | <edwardk> | cheater1: assume everythng like that is probably an act of omission rather than comission |
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| 23:40:47 | <cheater1> | this + founder flag should be public |
| 23:40:56 | <cheater1> | (they're separate settings) |
| 23:41:11 | <cheater1> | you had to disable them manually for them to be private |
| 23:41:13 | <edwardk> | cheater1: yeah someone mentioned it the other day. technically the channel as 'founded' by glguy and i had been given access |
| 23:41:32 | <edwardk> | the channel was set up before libera went live, some settings got tweaked along the way |
| 23:42:21 | <edwardk> | there was a 'hey did you do that? no, i didn't either' conversation with me and glguy the other day asking this same thing |
| 23:43:10 | <cheater1> | can you please enable it, so that the community knows what's going on. |
| 23:43:17 | <geekosaur> | ezzieyguywuf, the package description says yes (and, well, it'd have to be really) |
| 23:43:41 | <cheater1> | works now |
| 23:43:45 | <cheater1> | thanks |
| 23:43:55 | <cheater1> | if you didn't do anything, someone changed it since last time i checke |
| 23:43:55 | <cheater1> | d |
| 23:44:03 | <edwardk> | i didn't do anything ;) |
| 23:44:13 | <edwardk> | i was in the process of trying to figure out how to set it |
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| 23:46:09 | <cheater1> | probably glguy set it |
| 23:47:38 | <ezzieyguywuf> | geekosaur: yea, but digging through the source repo it looks like the c-stuff is auto-generated from the specification xml |
| 23:47:54 | <ezzieyguywuf> | amazing. +1 kmett |
| 23:48:26 | <edwardk> | ezzieyguywuf: the gl package? |
| 23:48:48 | <geekosaur> | but it also links against the platform-appropriate library |
| 23:49:15 | <edwardk> | whenever that thing gets updated we tend to be more current than anybody in the gl world, which is kinda nice |
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All times are in UTC on 2021-05-21.