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Logs on 2020-12-22 (freenode/#xmonad)

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00:11:27 <annihilannic> I've seen mention and screenshots of a 'default' status bar for xmonad using dzen2, but I don't seem to have one. What's the quickest way to enable this? Is it Xmobar, or is that an enhanced one?
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07:27:12 <dminuoso> annihilannic: What do you mean by "default" exactly?
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07:53:44 <RaderH2O> Hello!
07:54:05 <RaderH2O> Guys would this :import XMonadimport Data.Defaultmain = xmonad def { modMask = mod4Mask -- Use Super instead of Alt , terminal = "alacritty" -- more changes }Work for XMonad?
07:54:18 <RaderH2O> Oh you can't paste code?
07:56:19 <annihilannic> dminuoso: never mind, I seem to have xmobar working to some degree via cabal install, so I'm happy for the moment ;-)
07:57:01 <dminuoso> RaderH2O: Sure you can, but most irc clients dont behave nicely when pasting large inputs. Also its considered bad style for the noice it creates
07:57:11 <dminuoso> RaderH2O: Use —
07:57:13 <dminuoso> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/
07:57:28 <annihilannic> RaderH2O: Have you tried it? Not working for you?
07:57:34 <RaderH2O> Oh I see, I did it in hastebin , my question is , would this configuration work for XMonad ? https://hastebin.com/tebuvuqive.swift
07:57:45 <RaderH2O> I tried some configurations
07:58:10 <RaderH2O> But I had black screen and I couldn't even do basic keybindings , tho I'm aware that by default the xmonad's bg is black
07:58:54 <RaderH2O> I just didn't want to go through the pain of the black screen again
07:58:55 <dminuoso> RaderH2O: xmonad does not manage background information at all
07:58:57 <annihilannic> RaderH20: that is all you get, super-shift-enter to open a terminal, super-p to run applications via dzen prompt
07:59:11 <RaderH2O> Ah , so that config works rn?
07:59:20 <RaderH2O> Should work*
07:59:26 <dminuoso> Id import def from XMonad.Config rather, but sure
07:59:36 <RaderH2O> Ah okay , mb XD
07:59:56 <annihilannic> RaderH2O: I'm using 'xsetbg' from the 'xview' package to set a background
08:00:03 <dminuoso> Or in fact, it's re-exported from XMonad.
08:00:08 <RaderH2O> I can use Nitrogen , or Feh for bg
08:00:15 <dminuoso> Sure, that works.
08:00:30 <RaderH2O> So uhh .. import def from XMonad.Config?
08:00:40 <annihilannic> RaderH2O: Indeed, although setting a background is almost useless for a tiling wm, except for that first time it loads or you switch to a blank workspace... unless you use transparency
08:01:03 <RaderH2O> Yeah , I use picom , and it would be good having a bg
08:01:38 <dminuoso> RaderH2O: `import XMonad.Config` would suffice
08:01:52 <dminuoso> Or `import XMonad.Config (Default(def))` if you wanted to be explicit about the import
08:02:06 <RaderH2O> Oh okay , thanks lemme try it
08:02:37 <RaderH2O> k imma log out and login to XMonad
08:02:49 <RaderH2O> Should I recompile tho?
08:02:59 <RaderH2O> `xmonad --recompile` I meant
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08:10:39 <RaderH2O> Okay , still black screen
08:11:16 <RaderH2O> idk why , doing `xmonad --recompile` wouldn't give any errors at all , and the `~/.xmonad/xmonad.errors` is blank too
08:11:54 <RaderH2O> I have to kill the session with `loginctl` every time , so I get back to my normal session
08:12:09 <RaderH2O> If XMonad is not gonna work , idk if I'm gonna stick with i3 or no
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17:09:48 <ectospasm> Uh, by default XMonad has a blank screen. You could probably do mod+shift+q to exit out of XMonad. But they left so they won't see these words of wisdom.
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17:44:27 <benley> you have to admit, xmonad doesn't have the friendliest new user experience, what with the default black screen and all
17:52:51 <dminuoso> benley: Do you have a proposal what it should have instead?
17:52:55 <ectospasm> it just means someone didn't read or understand the documentation.
17:53:18 <dminuoso> I mean we could have a welcome screen on the first time it starts..
17:53:24 <ectospasm> It's been so long since I first used XMonad, that I don't remember if I asked about it, too.
17:53:37 <dminuoso> Is i3 any different with that regard?
17:53:44 <ectospasm> I had a coworker encourage me to use it.
17:54:10 dminuoso just uses xmonad since he's a full time haskell developer anyway - it made sense to use a fully programmable WM inside his comfort zone
17:54:31 <ectospasm> heh, I don't understand Haskell well enough
17:54:50 <ectospasm> I don't use it regularly, so i have to relearn just enough to get something working.
17:55:16 <ectospasm> The last time that happened, it was a lot less painful than I was expecting.
17:55:35 <dminuoso> Yeah, my setup is a bit more elaborate than just setting default options.. :-)
17:55:40 dminuoso treats xmonad as a WM library
17:55:41 <ectospasm> But granted, I wasn't trying to do anything fancy. Just set up the default gridselect
17:57:49 <dminuoso> ectospasm: At times I really do wonder how non-Haskellers get by.
17:58:06 <dminuoso> But it seems xmonad-contrib is plug-and-play enough without much Haskell
17:59:08 <ectospasm> dimestop: here's my xmonad.hs that I've developed over the last 10-12 years: https://git.eldon.me/trey/XMonad
17:59:32 <ectospasm> I've got too much blood, sweat, and tears built into it to ever go anywhere else.
18:00:03 <ectospasm> Don't be too critical of that config, most of it was done trying to get certain things working.
18:00:47 <dminuoso> Nothing to be critical about, if it works for you it works for you.
18:00:59 <dminuoso> If you're not in my Haskell team, I have no reason to critize you for it. :)
18:16:29 <ectospasm> I just like that if xmonad compiles, it won't crash. Getting it to compile is the hard part.
18:40:59 <benley> dminuoso: oops sorry for starting that and then getting distracted - I think I would propose something pretty minimal, like if you start xmonad without a config it pops up a xmessage or xterm showing a "welcome to xmonad, here's a link to the documentation and the default keybindings..." message
18:41:36 <benley> Even as someone who has run xmonad on and off for ~10 years, I still find myself confused by the blank screen on new installs from time to time.
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19:23:42 <benley> also I definitely mean this as constructive feedback, not a complaint. Xmonad's great, it was my onramp to learning Haskell in general.
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19:25:11 <geekosaur> we do already have mod-shift-slash (mod-?) which puts up a help screen. I could see us putting that up on the first time xmonad is run, perhaps
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19:27:23 <benley> That would be quite helpful! Pretty much anything at all other than a blank screen would be better for first-time users, imho.
19:45:32 <vrs> blank screen with an xmonad logo in the lower right
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20:00:37 <benley> I've been somewhat tempted to bring something like taffybar or xmobar inside my xmonad config, even though it's probably a terrible idea for stability and sanity
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20:01:37 <ectospasm> why is that a terrible idea? I use dzen2 in a few places.
20:03:29 <benley> oh I mean running them inside the xmonad process
20:04:09 <ectospasm> Well, they will be child processes of xmonad, the way I have it configured.
20:04:52 <benley> Aye, that is sensible. I was just thinking like, xmobar and taffybar are already in haskell, what if I used one of them as a library instead of a subprocess?
20:05:08 <ADG1089__> why does it say that "xmonad not found in path"? it's in both zshrc & bashrc
20:05:10 <benley> But I'm not sure if there is a good reason to do it
20:05:14 <geekosaur> running them inside won't work well as long as xmonad uses X11's event loop instead of its own
20:05:30 <geekosaur> ADG1089__, I tried to answer that the other day but you missed it
20:05:43 <geekosaur> those files only apply to shells run in terminals, not to the X11 session itself
20:06:02 <geekosaur> (except on debian, which pays a small price for reading them as part of the session)
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20:06:27 <geekosaur> your easiest solution is to symlink xmonad into /usr/bin
20:06:45 <ADG1089__> i tried symlink but it doesn't restart with mod-q
20:07:53 <geekosaur> that sounds like you made the symlink incorrectly, since /usr/bin should be in the default PATH
20:08:03 <ADG1089__> it works everything fine
20:08:06 <ADG1089__> with symlink
20:08:24 <ADG1089__> just i have to start a terminal and run "xmonad --recompile && xmonad --restart"
20:08:35 <ADG1089__> and mod-q doesn't do anything
20:09:02 <ADG1089__> without symlinking it works too but mod-q says not in path
20:09:54 <geekosaur> what does "doesn't do anything" mean here? what were you expecting to see happen, and what did you change?
20:10:52 <ADG1089__> making any changes to config and mod-q should work atleast
20:11:02 <ADG1089__> it works with manually restart
20:11:43 <ADG1089__> so basically this <<< spawn "if type xmonad; then xmonad --recompile && xmonad --restart; else xmessage xmonad not in \\$PATH: \"$PATH\"; fi">>> is not working
20:11:45 <geekosaur> some layout changes do not apply automatically, you need to mod-shift-space to apply them and you will lose e.g. chanegs to master windows
20:12:29 <dminuoso> geekosaur: Technically, how would we implement such a welcome screen elegantly? Create a .has_run file on first run, and draw a help screen if it doesn't exist on start-up?
20:13:00 <dminuoso> I guess such a check could be part of the xmonad config as well, such that you could override the check.
20:13:15 <geekosaur> that was my thought, just run the same code as for mod-shift-slash if the .has_run file doesn't exist
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20:13:56 <geekosaur> might skip it if there's a config since it'll be wrong anyway (it's hardcoded with the default config, there's no way to find out what keys are bound to dynamically)
20:14:32 <dminuoso> Might it make sense to unconditionally draw it if there is no config? It's reasonable that a user will want to customize a thing or two anyway.
20:14:53 <dminuoso> I dont know whether there are users that would use xmonad at its default settings.
20:15:35 <ADG1089__> for testing I added a xmessage to my config, mod-q did nothing but manually running "xmonad --recompile && xmonad --restart" showed me xmessage
20:15:51 <geekosaur> not at its current defaults, at least. I keep mentioning that I think ewmh should find its way into the core at some point
20:16:19 <ADG1089__> and yes i am using default keybinds with super key so it isnt a problem
20:16:43 <geekosaur> ADG1089__, that's odd because mod-q just does those. it sounds like it's not recompiling for some reason
20:18:27 <ADG1089__> got it
20:18:31 <ADG1089__> thanks!
20:18:42 <ADG1089__> i linked xmonad & xmobar but ghc
20:19:09 <ADG1089__> sudo ln -s ~/.ghcup/bin/ghc /usr/bin/ghc fixed it
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20:23:25 <dminuoso> geekosaur: Mmm. To some degree I favour how emacs deals with this. You get a splash screen, which offers controls to toggle it off - which would modify your ~/.emacs file to be loaded on next startup. For xmonad the user could just chose "Do not show this message again", or perhaps chose to be remembered every time xmonad is started?
20:24:06 <dminuoso> Does X11 come with some facility that has a binary option, say two buttons and a message?
20:24:20 <dminuoso> Oh hold on, we could use xmessage no?
20:24:21 <geekosaur> xmessage can do that
20:24:56 <geekosaur> one hidden problem with this is all the distros that install xmonad without xmessage, so none of this will work anyway
20:26:14 <dminuoso> What does mod-shift-slash end up doing? spawn xmessage?
20:26:20 <geekosaur> yes
20:27:03 <ADG1089__> i think there is a calcprompt
20:27:10 <dminuoso> Well, I'd say it's better than nothing. If we have no facility to portably render a welcome screen, then it doesn't matter if we can't offer a choice to not display a screen you're not getting.. :-)
20:28:41 <dminuoso> We could also surgically split XMonad.Prompt
20:29:21 <dminuoso> And move the basic facilities to xmonad core, that way we'd have a portable way of displaying arbitrary content on screen, and ask for a choice.
20:29:43 <geekosaur> there's also some stuff in XMonad.Util that might be moved to core
20:30:25 <dminuoso> Ah that would suffice, and it seems much more lightweight than the prompt code.
20:30:48 <dminuoso> What's the motivation for moving it into core? Display compilation errors without xmessage?
20:31:45 <ectospasm> That's been something I've been trying to fix for a long time. It doesn't look like the XMonad.Prompt accepts the font I want to use for it.
20:32:25 <geekosaur> did you build xmonad-contrib with use_xft set?
20:32:40 <ectospasm> Here's my xmonad.hs: https://git.eldon.me/trey/XMonad/src/branch/master/xmonad.hs
20:33:30 <ectospasm> geekosaur: I don't know if use_xft was compiled in, I got xmonad-contrib from the Arch community or extra repository (wherever it lives)
20:33:40 <ectospasm> Is there a way I can check?
20:34:22 <dminuoso> ectospasm: Don't use the arch haskell supplied packages and deal with it yourself?
20:34:49 <ectospasm> dminuoso: that would require extra work right now
20:35:02 <geekosaur> even with use_xft set, that font name needs "xft:" prepended
20:35:13 <ectospasm> Ah, OK
20:35:15 <geekosaur> otherwise it looks for a server-side font
20:36:06 <dminuoso> ectospasm: Out of curiosity, why do you feel like it'd be extra work?
20:38:49 <ectospasm> dminuoso: anything more than `pacman -Syu` is extra work, and I'd have to pay attention separately for updates/upgrades.
20:39:10 <ectospasm> geekosaur: that was quite simple, thanks. It worked!
20:41:09 <dminuoso> ectospasm: That's fair enough. Just know, that we have a minimal effort tool `ghcup` to provide `ghc` and `cabal-install` these days.
20:41:32 <dminuoso> Tools that most likely don't ever need updating themselves. :)
20:41:50 <dminuoso> Even more so, if you're not Haskell developer yourself.
20:42:09 <dminuoso> But, I say too much. Not trying to sway you away from pacman.
20:42:52 <ectospasm> dminuoso: then I have to maintain my XMonad with cabal-install. That was painful the last time I tried it. Using the Arch packages has been much cleaner, now that they're in the official repos. And it's pretty straightforward. I'll see the maintainers update the package, and all I have to do is an `xmonad --recompile` when it's finished.
20:44:24 <dminuoso> ectospasm: Perhaps it is a bit more confusing if you're not used to the tooling. Once ghc/cabal-install are on your system, it should be as simple as `cabal v1-update; cabal v1-install xmonad xmonad-contrib`, and then you can re-compile as you're used to it. :)
20:45:57 <ectospasm> It's been a while since I used cabal-install. I remember having issues with it, but I can't talk about specifics as it's been several years.
20:46:19 <dminuoso> But yeah, this is probably just in-experience with the tooling. The fact that xmonad not just imposes haskell but a haskell toolchain on you is quite punishing. Even more so when you're on Arch.
20:51:51 <ectospasm> I can't remember the last time xmonad was broken on Arch. Most of the time that's just because I forgot to recompile XMonad.
20:52:18 <ectospasm> whoever the maintainers of the haskell and xmonad packages are, they're pretty good at what they do.
20:52:38 <geekosaur> as long as xmonad is all you care about
20:53:39 <geekosaur> fact is, all Arch haskell packages are pretty broken for anything other than building Arch packages. and I have to assume they patch "-dynamic" into xmonad or you'd need to do more work to build a config
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20:59:28 <dminuoso> ectospasm: The ultimate example of how badly broken arch packages is, is pandoc.
20:59:41 <dminuoso> Oh sorry. I meant arch haskell packages.
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22:39:26 <ectospasm> Ah, I see. I don't know if I use any other Haskell packages besides XMonad. I have hledger installed, but I don't use it.
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All times are in UTC on 2020-12-22.